GMK 85|15 groupbuy (CANCELLED)

[CommonCurt]

Probably the most logical option. And for the Mod Kit, just offer a pack of what used to be called the "moogle" and "tsangan" kits only. Those used to sell so well in GBs, I never understood why we don't have small packs like that for compatibility with vintage WoB or BoW Cherry sets? Do you really get that many overseas orders, that you need to include other language options and blanks?

Sets do need the the pair of 1.25 blanks at least though.

[intelli78]

149 keys in the original vs currently 160 (there are some further non essential keys that could be dropped)... with support for at least 7 different layouts. 4 of those layouts are nearly impossible to find and haven't been made in a decade plus. I have no idea why people wouldn't jump on the opportunity. I'm getting really really really tired of the if it isn't only what I use I'm not going to help anyone else get the things they would use attitude around here. So much for 'community'.

Okay first, please Ivan do not think I am trying to be a negative Nancy or condescend or disparage this set or your hard work. We all appreciate what you do and have the highest respect... You are AWESOME, bro. I am just speaking my mind about the economics of group buys...

Having said that.... I am really surprised  that after everything,  my comment is the one that finally upset you.

Everybody who chimes in saying that they just need x key or y key or they won't  buy it...THAT is the behavior that ruins everything for the community.

Compromising on LESS is what everybody needs to do. People with unusual layouts or languages need to chill and realize that US ANSI is about all the market can handle. You can be upset about what I'm saying but it doesn't change the reality...

This is basically tragedy of the commons scenario...something that could be pretty good for everyone (a 104 key plus ISO and Tsangan), ends up becoming ruined (too expensive) because everyone exacts a cost on it (adding more and more keys).

In THEORY you are right that this is an unprecedented chance to get all these layouts. But the economic REALITY is that no matter how much people's wallets are hacked, group buy participation falls sharply as the price passes $120 or so....and honestly I don't believe you can blame anyone for this... no matter how sweet the set is, it just cannot be justified due to opportunity cost...

Also I suspect that the % that will use ANY of the international keys is quite low.... meaning the majority of buyers are expected to subsidize that cost and end up with a lot of pricy, extraneous keys...to my mind that is a misalignment of priorities.

When I revised the TA set with Photekq (still waiting for the new renders) I started on the premise of cutting everything we could and being very stingy with every key, resulting in a smaller but more useful set than we started with...personally I think that is the only successful design philosophy right now.

Now, if to you this set is all about total coverage, I. E. that facet of the GB is just as important as say, the colorway, then do what you have to do...I just think that the market will punish you for it and it will unfortunately fail MOQ.

Just the way I'm seeing it. And please do not think this is only about this GB...I feel the same way about a lot of recent GBS.

Once again thank you for your hard work and please realize I mean no harm with any of this....

[jdcarpe]

Probably the most logical option. And for the Mod Kit, just offer a pack of what used to be called the "moogle" and "tsangan" kits only. Those used to sell so well in GBs, I never understood why we don't have small packs like that for compatibility with vintage WoB or BoW Cherry sets? Do you really get that many overseas orders, that you need to include other language options and blanks?

Sets do need the the pair of 1.25 blanks at least though.

Then we can just do away with the Win keys. I think most people just want a few keys that allow their vintage set to be used on a modern 104/87 keyboard. If OS keys are really a sticking point for most people, then yeah, just go with blanks for those.

[intelli78]

Probably the most logical option. And for the Mod Kit, just offer a pack of what used to be called the "moogle" and "tsangan" kits only. Those used to sell so well in GBs, I never understood why we don't have small packs like that for compatibility with vintage WoB or BoW Cherry sets? Do you really get that many overseas orders, that you need to include other language options and blanks?

Sets do need the the pair of 1.25 blanks at least though.

Oh, but sets need the HHKB pack...

Oh, but sets need 75% keys...

Oh, but sets need A-profile alternatives...

once you start, it never ends. like I discussed above it is akin to a tragedy of the commons...

[intelli78]

Probably the most logical option. And for the Mod Kit, just offer a pack of what used to be called the "moogle" and "tsangan" kits only. Those used to sell so well in GBs, I never understood why we don't have small packs like that for compatibility with vintage WoB or BoW Cherry sets? Do you really get that many overseas orders, that you need to include other language options and blanks?

Sets do need the the pair of 1.25 blanks at least though.

Then we can just do away with the Win keys. I think most people just want a few keys that allow their vintage set to be used on a modern 104/87 keyboard. If OS keys are really a sticking point for most people, then yeah, just go with blanks for those.

That is a good example of the type of compromise needed...can't agree on one legend? Blank it out. What you should NOT do is add keys.

[geniekid]

With the addition of more modern legends I would personally buy the main set now.

Unfortunately I think many keys need to be cut to meet MOQ.  If I had to prioritize, I would get rid of blanks, then windowed keys, then retro legends, then European language specific legends.  I get that the legends are as important as the colorway to the concept of "85|15" but I don't think there is enough interest in the retro aspect of it all.

[madhias]

I do like the concept of one set to rule them all.

[IvanIvanovich]

Sure, I understand people would prefer the set to cost cheap... but I wanted to do something different and offer a bunch of hard to find legends and overall super vintage feel. I intended this to be a one time only event and hoped more people would get this and pony up for the additional cost to get a lot of hard to find stuff that hasn't been made in many years.
I did start taking away some things, but I noticed that if I replace those keys I took away it could support some more languages, then I was like... oh hey if I add these few more keys then there is another few languages. I think that is good. More languages I thought would be better welcomed than a bunch of odd fringe case legend/size combinations.
We've had great success with other 'minority' layouts in the past like Russian... which I assume most people buy only for looks and don't speak Russian. Why does German and Nordic have to be any different if you look at it that way? You get some interesting keys you aren't going to find typically, nice to have for collectors. Even nicer to have for those who really do use it.
Yes, I could just strip it down to be US ANSI only, but then that takes away the whole feeling I was going for.

[Photekq]

Nobody wants German or Nordic keys except those that use them. ANSI w/ cyrillic and other variations of ANSI are popular because people can use them on their ANSI board, and they like the look of the additional legends.

Yeah, there's a lot of hard to find stuff there, but hard to find =/= popular.

[pasph]

Ivan you will never learn
Why loose your time?
Base=104 ansi set
Mod=moogle + Tsangan + 4 iso keys
And that's all

[geniekid]

Probably the most logical option. And for the Mod Kit, just offer a pack of what used to be called the "moogle" and "tsangan" kits only. Those used to sell so well in GBs, I never understood why we don't have small packs like that for compatibility with vintage WoB or BoW Cherry sets? Do you really get that many overseas orders, that you need to include other language options and blanks?

Sets do need the the pair of 1.25 blanks at least though.

Oh, but sets need the HHKB pack...

Oh, but sets need 75% keys...

Oh, but sets need A-profile alternatives...

once you start, it never ends. like I discussed above it is akin to a tragedy of the commons...

The main pack does not have HHKB support or 75% support or extraneous A-profile alternatives (note the lack of B-profile arrow keys).  Almost all the keys that people view as unnecessary are for the sake of retro layouts.  If we are to maintain the spirit of this GB we shouldn't say "cut out anything non-standard ANSI" - we have to discuss specific keys to remove.  I think removing blanks and European keys (or finding a pad printing solution) is a good start although I'm not sure it will be enough.

It sounds like most people view this GB as completely about the colorway.  Unfortunately, I believe that is the only perspective we can take if we are to meet MOQ and get anything out of this.  All the retro keys should be put in a separate pack/GB and it will be up to the *believers* to convince the others that the retro pack is worth buying.  Very likely it will end up the way of the Dolch Odd pack but at least the lack of interest in retro legends won't be obfuscated by possible lack of interest in the colorway itself.

[intelli78]

^ my point was about the slippery slope of saying,  ok, let's cut this down to the bare minimum.... and then 10 people request 1-2 keys each...and you're back to where you started.

[Halvar]

Beige German Cherry DS keycaps is kind of like bringing sand to the beach, if you ask me. It would have been nice for Dolch, but for beige it's not really needed because there are so many cheap vintage Cherry HAD sets on ebay.de . OK, the Commodore inverse scheme is harder to find but not so different that it's worth the effort.

So as someone who uses German layout I'll be fully content (actually really happy) if the Mod set gets made. I hope you can redesign/reduce that to a point where more people buy it.

[geniekid]

^ my point was about the slippery slope of saying,  ok, let's cut this down to the bare minimum.... and then 10 people request 1-2 keys each...and you're back to where you started.

I understand and agree with your point .  I was merely trying to point out Ivan appears to be cognizant of what you are saying based on the LACK of support for many things people usually request.  What a lot of people perceive as extras are pivotal to the retro theme of this set and we're asking Ivan to give up on that vision.

In light of that, I now think the European legends, blank keys and windowed keys could be removed and price re-examined.  If after that there is still not enough interest then we may have to give up on the retro theme (or separate it) and treat this GB as just a reverse colorway GB.

[IvanIvanovich]

MOD pack is already been cut down, probably as much as it is going to be. Check back a page or two to see that. Still waiting to see how much those changes do with pricing though.

As far as the main set... this particular colorway dosen't actually exist at all as far as I know. It's like a mash up of Commodore and Goupil sets. If it comes down to it, that most of the German guys don't care, then that is 4 keys that can be cut no problem.
Then as far as the Nordic stuff... it's about a dozen keys of the additional letters and specific punctuation keys. Maybe some of the punctuation keys could get pad printed on the US/GB shared keys to cut down some? The main reason I chose adding those is most of the numrow from the bitshift layout was already the same.
I already know pulling anything out and putting them in a separate pack would be a totally useless move. For those that do want them it won't improve pricing at all... and clearly none of people that want things for the lowest possible price will be choosing to add them.

As it is I am pretty torn about what to do here. Taking away stuff and changing everything to be modern US ANSI only completely defeats the whole purpose here as far as I am concerned. Current orders are now below 100 so maybe it's just time to say **** it and cancel the whole thing.

[Elrick]

Current orders are now below 100 so maybe it's just time to say **** it and cancel the whole thing.

Oh SH1T  .

Another brilliant GMK set chucked away like a used condom because some darlings here on this forum can't stand a couple keys....?

Maybe Ivan is right, why even bother to run any type of GMK Group Buys since most here think it's just too expensive, then I hope you all enjoy SP made key-caps for years to come.  Nothing wrong with SP made key-sets but many here seem to not like German made originals anymore hence why bother slamming your head against the GH wall on a consistent basis ?

Appreciate all the effort he went through because it won't happen again any time soon, you lot here deserve a great kick up the back side for being so ignorant and cheap on every level, in fact you don't deserve any GMK made key-caps.....ever  .

[CommonCurt]

Probably the most logical option. And for the Mod Kit, just offer a pack of what used to be called the "moogle" and "tsangan" kits only. Those used to sell so well in GBs, I never understood why we don't have small packs like that for compatibility with vintage WoB or BoW Cherry sets? Do you really get that many overseas orders, that you need to include other language options and blanks?

Sets do need the the pair of 1.25 blanks at least though.

Oh, but sets need the HHKB pack...

Oh, but sets need 75% keys...

Oh, but sets need A-profile alternatives...

once you start, it never ends. like I discussed above it is akin to a tragedy of the commons...

Blank 1.25's instead of the win8 caps would be fine.  I just thought there would be a lot of people saying that they didn't want blank win keys.

[IvanIvanovich]

Oh, and yeah... we could always forgo the shiny tray packaging and cut a good chunk off the final set prices.
So... is this even worth trying to salvage?
What can be done to make this 250 orders worthy... besides cutting out EVERYTHING that makes the set concept different and interesting?
How would you feel about this trimmed down version? Best guess is it should be somewhere around €10-15 cheaper than what's in the OP. The EURO IS DOWN right now! it's only at 1 to 1.10!!! That would make this somewhere right around $100 USD. Great time to get this done!
This would be my preference then...


Otherwise... I have some other ideas so can just cancel this **** and roll on.

[geniekid]

Ivan would you still run the mod pack if the base pack is cancelled?

[ideus]

One more thing: The uncommon legends are certainly interesting but not useful. Thus, I am after the mod pack, and I hope it would be at a good pricing point, the other two current ICs on modifiers sets appear to be going to the fancy colors market, in my humble opinion the more classic beige would be a winner depending on pricing.

[avtar]

How would you feel about this trimmed down version?

I'm down

[Elrick]

How would you feel about this trimmed down version? Best guess is it should be somewhere around €10-15 cheaper than what's in the OP. The EURO IS DOWN right now! it's only at 1 to 1.10!!! That would make this somewhere right around $100 USD. Great time to get this done!
This would be my preference then...
(Attachment Link)

I'm game on this version as well.

Another thing of note, because I'm stuck here in Convict Town our currency is absolute SH1T worthless compared to the Euro but guess what, I'm still here buying GMK key-sets  .

Time to harden up sunshines and stop the whining about expense, come live here in crap town then you've got something to b1tch about pricing, when it comes to key-set purchasing here on Geekhack.

[taylordcraig]

Ivan would you still run the mod pack if the base pack is cancelled?

I hate to say I've already given up on the main set with only 125 orders originally, and some pulling out to support mods.
I'd love to see the mod kit made.

[tbc]

i'm going to help chip in for the mod set.  but i'm just waiting for final official details

[Karura]

I also want to chime in that I am fine with the reduced mods pack that was posted. I would rather consolidate our efforts into making sure the mod pack hits MOQ.

[honoka]

Ivan would you still run the mod pack if the base pack is cancelled?

I hate to say I've already given up on the main set with only 125 orders originally, and some pulling out to support mods.
I'd love to see the mod kit made.

I wouldn't give up. If Ivan can get the base set down to about $100 I think more people will join. For some obscure reason this seems to be the limit.
I personally don't care if it's $150, as long as it contains the things that I need. Granted, no set can please everyone, but certainly it has to please the buyer.
 
I'm pretty satisfied with the latest suggestion Ivan. I am a nordic user, and was hoping for some extra characters, but I wont lose sleep over it.

Color pack - Crisp

Mod pack - Too big

Edit: Just saw the revised mod pack, can't complain.

Don't give up Ivan, we need you.
Hugs.

[pasph]

It seems that iso needs another R4 key between Z and shift

[renne]

149 keys in the original vs currently 160 (there are some further non essential keys that could be dropped)... with support for at least 7 different layouts. 4 of those layouts are nearly impossible to find and haven't been made in a decade plus. I have no idea why people wouldn't jump on the opportunity. I'm getting really really really tired of the if it isn't only what I use I'm not going to help anyone else get the things they would use attitude around here. So much for 'community'.

Okay first, please Ivan do not think I am trying to be a negative Nancy or condescend or disparage this set or your hard work. We all appreciate what you do and have the highest respect... You are AWESOME, bro. I am just speaking my mind about the economics of group buys...

Having said that.... I am really surprised  that after everything,  my comment is the one that finally upset you.

Everybody who chimes in saying that they just need x key or y key or they won't  buy it...THAT is the behavior that ruins everything for the community.

Compromising on LESS is what everybody needs to do. People with unusual layouts or languages need to chill and realize that US ANSI is about all the market can handle. You can be upset about what I'm saying but it doesn't change the reality...

This is basically tragedy of the commons scenario...something that could be pretty good for everyone (a 104 key plus ISO and Tsangan), ends up becoming ruined (too expensive) because everyone exacts a cost on it (adding more and more keys).

In THEORY you are right that this is an unprecedented chance to get all these layouts. But the economic REALITY is that no matter how much people's wallets are hacked, group buy participation falls sharply as the price passes $120 or so....and honestly I don't believe you can blame anyone for this... no matter how sweet the set is, it just cannot be justified due to opportunity cost...

Also I suspect that the % that will use ANY of the international keys is quite low.... meaning the majority of buyers are expected to subsidize that cost and end up with a lot of pricy, extraneous keys...to my mind that is a misalignment of priorities.

When I revised the TA set with Photekq (still waiting for the new renders) I started on the premise of cutting everything we could and being very stingy with every key, resulting in a smaller but more useful set than we started with...personally I think that is the only successful design philosophy right now.

Now, if to you this set is all about total coverage, I. E. that facet of the GB is just as important as say, the colorway, then do what you have to do...I just think that the market will punish you for it and it will unfortunately fail MOQ.

Just the way I'm seeing it. And please do not think this is only about this GB...I feel the same way about a lot of recent GBS.

Once again thank you for your hard work and please realize I mean no harm with any of this....

thumb.

[Elias Camber]

mod set looks really nice. Is that a 3 unit key at the bottom? (looks like it could make for a Minila spacebar )

[IvanIvanovich]

Well hopefully I'll get new pricing with my suggested changes from GMK next week... then we can see what happens.

[Elrick]

Well hopefully I'll get new pricing with my suggested changes from GMK next week... then we can see what happens.

Always maintain the optimism, which is what separates us all from the lower species.........  .

[mickd]

This is probably not a big issue for most people, but with the USD going so strong recently, a set like this is going to cost me about 20% more than it would have before (1AUD = 0.79USD now, it was nearly 1 to 1 awhile back).

It would have been nice to see this happen, but it's really not looking so good at the moment.

[findingthelimit]

I like the trim down version a lot. Do you have any idea how much the mod set is going to be dropping, ivan? Thanks for the hard work!

Also, I'm sort of new here, but does that Elrick guy have any friends?

[DanielT]

Also, I'm sort of new here, but does that Elrick guy have any friends?

Elrick ,  I would like to have a friend like him, that is one straight forward guy, and with a language to my taste 

[renne]

Also, I'm sort of new here, but does that Elrick guy have any friends?

good point.

[slickmamba]

Down for a mod set with a bit of a price drop.  Is hhkb layout still supported?

[ideus]

Down for a mod set with a bit of a price drop.  Is hhkb layout still supported?

Yes it does.

Row   Units   Legend
1   1   \|
2   1.5   Backspace
3   1.75   Control (Full)
3   1.75   Control (Stepped)
4   1   Fn
4   1.75   Shift
4   1   Ctrl
4   1   Alt
4   1   Window
4   1   Blank
4   1.5   Control
4   1.5   Alt

[kekstee]

Revised mod pack still the best thing here (GMK HHKB HYPE), although I wouldn't mind dropping the Windows logo for some blanks ^^"

[ideus]

I agree this is a great option to get back in service some of the already owned GMK sets that has been not in use because they do not have all the modifiers you need for HHKB layout, or even they do not have some keys to populate an ANSI layout. I have the purple modifiers but that set do not have full HHKB keys, thus, I hope to get one or two of these to get my two main daily drivers dressed with GMK, and I hope to dress the two for less than one hundred and something dollars. The full sets options are attractive but if I want to get the beige or the HF sets I should pay over two hundred to fit the two boards. I am not at the big spenders level yet, so I'd prefer to get a modifiers set. The green one that it is also at the IC stage may not have all the keys I may need, the other HHKB set is stalled now.

[monotagary]

I think I'll be joining in this. Can't do any harm by having a few extra GMK mod sets. Plus, getting some different colored GMK spacebars can't be a bad thing either.

[Synjin]

Grumblegrumble. I should probably join the Mod pack as well. What is our updated count on the pack?

[radio_killah]

Grumblegrumble. I should probably join the Mod pack as well. What is our updated count on the pack?

I think it's best to first wait for Ivan to sort out the new layouts and prices before we do number updates. I am sure that orders will change drastically depending on Ivan's update.

[Synjin]

I'm definitely in for at least one of the mods once it updates and we get closer to MOQ

[ideus]

Grumblegrumble. I should probably join the Mod pack as well. What is our updated count on the pack?

I think it's best to first wait for Ivan to sort out the new layouts and prices before we do number updates. I am sure that orders will change drastically depending on Ivan's update.

I wonder why the update is taking this long.

[tjweir]

Grumblegrumble. I should probably join the Mod pack as well. What is our updated count on the pack?

I think it's best to first wait for Ivan to sort out the new layouts and prices before we do number updates. I am sure that orders will change drastically depending on Ivan's update.

I wonder why the update is taking this long.

Ivan is wrapping up PBT round 4 I would assume.

[ideus]

Grumblegrumble. I should probably join the Mod pack as well. What is our updated count on the pack?

I think it's best to first wait for Ivan to sort out the new layouts and prices before we do number updates. I am sure that orders will change drastically depending on Ivan's update.

I wonder why the update is taking this long.

Ivan is wrapping up PBT round 4 I would assume.

Right, that should take most of his time now.

[monotagary]

I think that the new mod pack without the blanks is still great!


I'm definitely still in for it and some spacebars.

[IvanIvanovich]

GMK still hasn't gotten back to me on my changes pricing.

[ideus]

GMK still hasn't gotten back to me on my changes pricing.

Thank you for your post, this GB is great, beige is one the nicest color sets from GMK.

[Elrick]

GMK still hasn't gotten back to me on my changes pricing.

Thank you for your post, this GB is great, beige is one the nicest color sets from GMK.

Plus it goes with every lighter coloured keyboard that's available out there  .

It deserves placement within any GON keyboard that was ever made, to fully appreciate the perfection of these key-caps.