[IC] Command Key

[aggiejy]

I think we should at least cut the option legend at 1.25x. That'd be a $45 well spent.  However, I don't think it would look great big and centered.  Perhaps in the Round 4 style?  Or on the top left or right corner (which would require us to redo the command too)?  Whatever we do here, hopefully it sets a standard where full-set group buy organizers will consider using them going forward.

Anyway, my thought is to at least do the option for the white-on-black since it's likely to be most common.  Maybe just in 1.25x since it's most common too.

[mashby]

It's also a question of wether to do an image, or text.

If we're replacing the "Alt" key, then when I look at existing sets, they're all text so "Alt" becomes "Option". When I take a look at the Apple Keyboard they're using all text as well.

Personally, I like the idea of having the Option icon because I think it's looks cool.

That being said, there's also the question of balance. I don't know if adding another icon key throws off the look of the modifiers. Take the Valentine set for example. All of the other modifiers are icons, so it seems like the Option icon would be a good fit here.



With Klaxon however, the modifiers are mostly text based, so I don't know if the legend is the best fit.

Full-Red Set by Michael Ashby, on Flickr

So Here's My Question
How closely should we match existing sets?

[w3djyt]

Re Colors: Thanks. Sanctuary, Valentines, and the CCnG green mods look awesome.

Re Modifiers: The more modern Apple keyboards have all at least added text if not removed the images entirely save for the command key. That having been said, I'd still really like the pictures on at least one of the sets. The option and command logos are pretty nice, I think, and I'm even partial to how they icon the ctrl key.

2c

[aggiejy]

I think the "Option" key is entirely optional.  Especially since "Alt" is literally printed on an Apple option key too... it works.  But that said, I like the option symbol too, and it was printed on older Apple keyboards (I thought this, but I can't seem to find an example, so maybe not?).

As I explained to Mashby, the option keys actually count in the same qty discount as the command keys since they are the same profile/size/color. (Except on RGB obviously.)  So for 25 orders, you get the 100 key tier instead of the 50.  The overall cost of 4 keys vs two is only maybe a 25% increase.) 

Regardless, I think it would be work to do an option symbol even on primarily text-based designs.  Here are some various options to discuss.  there could be other ones:




Also, who here would need a 1x command key?  Most korean boards that have a 1x modifier would be where the option key goes, no?  If this isn't popular, Mashby could cut those two keys thus lowering the price.  (And perhaps 1x altogether, assuming whoever needs 1.5x already has some generic 1x key that would work.)  I think we can mostly agree that the command key is the big missing link for mac users on custom keyboard sets?

[w3djyt]

I've got at least 1 keyboard that could use a 1x command & option key.

[aggiejy]

I've got at least 1 keyboard that could use a 1x command & option key.

Just curious, what keyboard?  I'm just trying to get a feel for how popular this might be.

[mashby]

@aggiejy



LOVE, love, love the mock ups! Thank you!!!! 


Positioning
I think that should be dictated by the set depending on wether we go with text, or icon. Of course that could increase costs should we need to change placement. For Valentine, Klaxon, CCnG, Black on White and White on Black they would all match Style C (left, centered). For at least those colorways, we'd be set. However, should other colorways require a new legend fee, it may make it cost prohibitive.

I think the "Option" key is entirely optional.  Especially since "Alt" is literally printed on an Apple option key too... it works.  But that said, I like the option symbol too, and it was printed on older Apple keyboards (I thought this, but I can't seem to find an example, so maybe not?).

I looked on Wikipedia and it seems it was more popular in the early OS X days, but they've moved away from it with the aluminum keyboards entirely.

[snip]... and I'm even partial to how they icon the ctrl key.

2c

What icon is that? I can't seem to find one.

[aggiejy]

Yeah, unfortunately moving the legend is the same as creating a whole new legend.  So you'd have to pay $45 for each size.  If you did Option and Control, that'd be $90 for each size (1.25, 1.5, 1). 

[w3djyt]

I've got at least 1 keyboard that could use a 1x command & option key.

Just curious, what keyboard?  I'm just trying to get a feel for how popular this might be.

Keycool 84


picture posted by Blighty

[aggiejy]

Ah, thanks for posting.  So it has 1.25x mods on the left, and 1x on the right.   At least if we don't do 1x mods, the more common command key position would be covered.

[w3djyt]

And this one is actually KVM'd between a Mac and a PC so that solution could work well anyway

[Leslieann]

I've got at least 1 keyboard that could use a 1x command & option key.

Just curious, what keyboard?  I'm just trying to get a feel for how popular this might be.

Keycool 84

KBT Race also uses a single 1x key (Control), though I'm not really concerned with getting keys for that.

[aggiejy]

Control is typically left mapped in the same location for Mac users too, so I doubt you'd really want a cmd 1x on that location anyway.

[w3djyt]

No I'd want it on the alt 1x spot to the right of the space bar

[rowdy]

I think the "Option" key is entirely optional.  Especially since "Alt" is literally printed on an Apple option key too... it works.  But that said, I like the option symbol too, and it was printed on older Apple keyboards (I thought this, but I can't seem to find an example, so maybe not?).

As I explained to Mashby, the option keys actually count in the same qty discount as the command keys since they are the same profile/size/color. (Except on RGB obviously.)  So for 25 orders, you get the 100 key tier instead of the 50.  The overall cost of 4 keys vs two is only maybe a 25% increase.) 

Regardless, I think it would be work to do an option symbol even on primarily text-based designs.  Here are some various options to discuss.  there could be other ones:

(Attachment Link)


Also, who here would need a 1x command key?  Most korean boards that have a 1x modifier would be where the option key goes, no?  If this isn't popular, Mashby could cut those two keys thus lowering the price.  (And perhaps 1x altogether, assuming whoever needs 1.5x already has some generic 1x key that would work.)  I think we can mostly agree that the command key is the big missing link for mac users on custom keyboard sets?

Personally, I prefer option c.

Here are a couple of older Apple keyboards I have lying around, from 1994:



And from 2000:



The open Apple symbol is nice - I had forgotten about that

[aggiejy]

Personally, I prefer option c.

Me too!

[ForestFunK]

Option c looks best for me aswell. The current macbooks also have a similar design:

[aggiejy]

Option c looks best for me aswell. The current macbooks also have a similar design:

(Attachment Link)

Woah, what laptop is that, an Air?  The US layouts don't don't use any of those symbols except the command icon.  No shift, caps, or option symbols.

[n0rvig]

Option c looks best for me aswell. The current macbooks also have a similar design:

(Attachment Link)

Woah, what laptop is that, an Air?  The US layouts don't don't use any of those symbols except the command icon.  No shift, caps, or option symbols.

I've seen UK layouts like that too. The symbols look really good. My US layout has words. For us i think option c with symbols would be great.

[rowdy]

Is that the German layout, with Y where Z would otherwise be?

[ForestFunK]

Option c looks best for me aswell. The current macbooks also have a similar design:

(Attachment Link)

Woah, what laptop is that, an Air?  The US layouts don't don't use any of those symbols except the command icon.  No shift, caps, or option symbols.

Yes, it's an air in german ISO layout. I had no idea that other layouts have different symbols. Weird...

[w3djyt]

This is the current American English Macbook Air layout for comparison...

[rowdy]

Bit of a giveaway, seeing as how ForestFunK is from Germany

I think I've seen the option symbol in online documentation from Apple, possibly quite recently.

[aggiejy]

Yes, the option symbol is all over the place in OS X menus, etc.  Like at the bottom here:


Just didn't know they still put it on some keyboards.  Good to know, I like it!

[w3djyt]

Yeah, they still don't really make a distinction in the OS. It's mainly the squiggly image and occasionally you'll see the word "option key" but for the most part just the random icon that makes no sense if you haven't used a Mac before and have an American keyboard

I'm still on board for the squiggly icon on the key, though!

[rowdy]

Squiggly icon +1

[Poom]

Hey, actually what I would love to see also is all the media keys on the F-row, like brightness control, volume up and down, I dont think I ever need the F1-F12 on mac. but this might be too much to ask.

by the way, can we actually program the F keys to be media keys? what application or add-on can you guys recommend?

[w3djyt]

... the OS? I'm a little confused by your request. I just went into keyboard preferences and told it that F keys are always media keys regardless of the keyboard I have attached.

If you want to get more complex than that, though, I recommend KeyRemap4MacBook as a general remap / fixall for your Mac keyboard woes.

[Poom]

... the OS? I'm a little confused by your request. I just went into keyboard preferences and told it that F keys are always media keys regardless of the keyboard I have attached.

If you want to get more complex than that, though, I recommend KeyRemap4MacBook as a general remap / fixall for your Mac keyboard woes.

Oh can do that on the keyboard preferences? sorry I didnt know.
anyhow I was just thinking that it would also be nice to have the symbols printed on the keys too, so we Mac users can have a real mac mechanical keyboards, but again this might be too much to ask. but if future groupboys would design a mac set as an extra, like tsangan, iso etc, ill definitely pay for those extras. 

[w3djyt]

On the plus side, the Fn functions of my F keys on the Keycool 84 work seamlessly with the Mac... so depending on your keyboard, you may not always need it. Now my F keys still work as media keys as well (F1 & F2 for monitor brightness, cmd + F2 still switches inputs to my PC, etc...) so there's some overlap, but this way if you can't quite remember right, you can go for the Fn function on the keyboard. Honestly, between my iMac and my Air, I got used to the media keys pretty quickly. I just hope they don't go changing them again. It's such a pain in the neck to adjust muscle memory to it. :/

But then, I'll be glad just having a command key.

[Poom]

well, as it is I also have no problem, I just swap the windows key to be my command key, then everything is functional, its just for the looks and novelty aspect of having a keyboard that looks like its made for a mac that is all. in the end I rather type on a mech keyboard than rubber dome, or in the apple case scissor keys.

I am an ergodox incoming, that would be interesting to remap the keys around. anyone here use an ergodox with a mac and would like to share their layouts for ideas?

[w3djyt]

I'd be interested in hearing how that works out! But yeah, I'm generally in the same boat re: mech keys and making them match the Mac. It all becomes muscle memory eventually, so it 's just a matter of getting it to sink in (and Apple not changing around function keys with each new product. I sincerely hope they've worked themselves out of that phase by now).

[mashby]

OK, got word back from Signature Plastics and they do not have the legend for the option key icon. They do have the Option text though, so that's good.

What Does This Mean?
For each key (1x, 1.25x and 1.5x) there would be an additional $45 charge. For all three keys sizes, that would mean an additional $135. This cost would be absorbed by everyone's order, so you would only pay a fraction of the total cost with your order, but it does increase the overall cost of each set.

How Much Are We Talking About?
It's hard to project because we don't know how many orders we'll get. However, sticking with our existing example of 25 orders, it would add and additional ~$5.50 per order. This gets further diluted between each colorway, so it starts looking more affordable as more orders are placed in each category, but it's still more expensive.

Preliminary Numbers
Below are some "back of the napkin" calculations to give you an idea of how the pricing could breakdown.

   Option 1: Text Legend for Option Key
   Command Key with Icon in 1x, 1.25x and 1.5x
   Option Key with Text in 1x, 1.25x and 1.5x
   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   25 orders   = $22 per order, per color
   50 orders   = $16 per order, per color
   125 orders = $11 per order, per color

   Option 2: Icon Legend for Option Key
   Command Key with Icon in 1x, 1.25x and 1.5x
   Option Key with Icon in 1x, 1.25x and 1.5x
   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   25 orders   = $27 per order, per color
   50 orders   = $21 per order, per color
   125 orders = $12 per order, per color


How Can We Lower The Price?
1. Drop 1x and or 1.5x keys
If we were to drop the 1x key for both Command and Option, then the cost for a set with icons is ~$19.50 per set at 25 orders. That's a pretty significant cost savings over the $27 set cost. If we only go with the 1.25x then we're looking at ~$10 per set. Think about how many colors you're looking to get and you can see how this impacts what you'd like to purchase.

2. Drop Icon For The Option Key
We'd include all the keys, but just use text for the Option key and we're looking at ~$22 per set.

3. Sell A Ton Of Sets
That's the gamble. Our Interest check has only yielded 25 orders. It stands to reason that we'll receive more once this becomes an actual Group Buy, but there's no way of knowing at this point.

New Poll
We need more data, so please take a moment and respond to the new poll which focuses on the Option Key and Preferred Colors. This should provide us with more information on just how strongly everyone feels about the additional key cap sizes and what colors are most probable.

 

[aggiejy]

Well, I guess it's too late for the poll, but I'd propose this as a set:

2x: 1.25x Command Symbol
2x: 1.25x Option Symbol
2x: 1.5x Command Symbol
2x: 1x Option Symbol

There would only be two new legends, $90.  It would cover the most common uses for 1.5x keys.  (Which is usually either winkeyless, or a small winkey.)  Sure some rare layouts won't get full support, but better than nothing, and keeps costs down. 

My calculations for cost*, without the legends, would be:

@25:  $17.20
@50:  $11.30
@75:  $9.68
@125: $7.46

Legend fees won't add much to this if we do multiple color ways.  Heck, I'll pledge right here to personally pay any difference so that the legend fee won't raise the cost of a set by more than $1. (If we do this set that is... 2 new legends.)

These kind of prices are nice and low, encouraging more "just-in-case" orders, and perhaps even getting to a lower tier for some colorways.  Though, my gut says we probably will be lucky to get to 25 on some colors.  (But if the price is only ~$17 per color, perhaps people will be willing to buy two to make it happen!)

* Actual costs will be higher of course, after you figure buying extra for mashby/replacements/damage, shipping from SP, packing materials, whatever else.

[rowdy]

Um I clicked the link to the new poll and got to a page with the title "Welcome to Mashby.com" and "Sign in to your account at Mashby.com".

Was that supposed to happen?

[aggiejy]

I did as well, I think it's locked to be private or something currently.

[Poom]

we should definitely do the MIAMI colors as the Group buy is going pretty strong at the moment,
CCnG is another one, since it was quite popular.
the Toxic set also, its a large group buy, so i reckon there should be a few mac users in there.

I personally would go for all the three colors above. 1.25x size would do for me

[reiuorw]

I think dropping 1.5 key is better idea..

by the way, do I have to log in google to take second poll?

[mashby]

Sorry, I didn't see that I had locked it to the domain.

The poll has re-opened. Please try it again.

[YoungMichael88]

Filled out

[mashby]

Just looking over the results, which you can see here and we've had 12 responses. Below is a summary.

• Most people want all three sizes of modifiers
• The icon legend is clearly more popular than text
• The four most popular color ways are (in order): CCnG, Klaxon, White on Black and then Black on White

If you haven't already taken the new poll, please do so.

[remedyhalopc]

I'd be down for a SoWaRe set but I doubt there's enough interest for it.

[rowdy]

Unless there is really low MOQ, is it worth the hassle of a GB?

[reiuorw]

what about lily set modifier?

It is just invoicing phase but I wish lily set had more keys..

[mashby]

Unless there is really low MOQ, is it worth the hassle of a GB?

The MOQ that we've been working with has been 25. I think that's pretty low, is it not?

[nightsnack]

I've just put in my responses for the second poll. I'm in for this no matter what the final colour decision is.

[reiuorw]

any update? or lack of votes?

I'm really expecting this.

[mashby]

Nothing new to report. I put this on the back burner until after KeyCon 2013. We've had 23 responses in total so there hasn't been a TON of interest at this point.

I still want to make this happen though, I just need to figure out the pricing so that we can try and make it work and still be affordable and that's just going to take a little time to sort it all out. Time is in short supply at the moment, but after KeyCon there should be enough to nail it down.

[reiuorw]

Nothing new to report. I put this on the back burner until after KeyCon 2013. We've had 23 responses in total so there hasn't been a TON of interest at this point.

I still want to make this happen though, I just need to figure out the pricing so that we can try and make it work and still be affordable and that's just going to take a little time to sort it all out. Time is in short supply at the moment, but after KeyCon there should be enough to nail it down.

thanks,

[jondkinney]

I ran across this thread looking for at least a command key for my Coolermaster Quickfire Rapid (1.25). A 1.25 Option would be nice too, but I can live with Alt if necessary. I, however, do not really enjoy the Win key

Let me know if there is any progress on this. I'd be most interested in PBT white on black since my QFR has all black keys.

Thanks,
Jon