[IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)

[Arallu]

These are great, maybe some novelties/ESC keys with Weyland Yutani logos too, or are there copywright issues on those?
http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597

Also, found this looking around, just a base set with icon descriptions, neat!:
http://scotch-and-soda.deviantart.com/art/Alien-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-189883488

[FuriousGeorge]

Definitely in for this one. I agree that a single combined set may not be a bad idea. If orders are expected to be low it could help. I'd also like to see some bumped or dished home keys if possible. I understand not wanting to force any particular design to have the bumps. How about a second set of the arrow keys with bumps on them?

[iFreilicht]

These are great, maybe some novelties/ESC keys with Weyland Yutani logos too, or are there copywright issues on those?
http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597

Also, found this looking around, just a base set with icon descriptions, neat!:
http://scotch-and-soda.deviantart.com/art/Alien-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-189883488

To be honest, those don't really fit the semiotic aesthetic in my eyes. The inspiration is certainly there, but they are lacking the simplicity and clarity of the semiotic icons. Even the Defrag icon, which is closest to the original style, is too far from the border and doesn't incorporate the radii on that. It just looks slapped on.

[Arallu]

These are great, maybe some novelties/ESC keys with Weyland Yutani logos too, or are there copywright issues on those?
http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597

Also, found this looking around, just a base set with icon descriptions, neat!:
http://scotch-and-soda.deviantart.com/art/Alien-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-189883488

To be h
onest, those don't really fit the semiotic aesthetic in my eyes. The inspiration is certainly there, but they are lacking the simplicity and clarity of the semiotic icons. Even the Defrag icon, which is closest to the original style, is too far from the border and doesn't incorporate the radii on that. It just looks slapped on.

Ya, I wasn't implying all those should be considered, just the Weyland-Yutani ones and then only as reference.
There's plenty of Weyland-Yutani logo's out there for reference: https://goo.gl/Y3SiY7

[iFreilicht]

Ya, I wasn't implying all those should be considered, just the Weyland-Yutani ones and then only as reference.
There's plenty of Weyland-Yutani logo's out there for reference: https://goo.gl/Y3SiY7

Oh I see. Sorry if I came off as rude.

[Arallu]

No worries, although come on, this could work right? /s 

[zslane]

This set is already in somewhat murky territory with regard to copyrights. I await word from 20th Century Fox business relations, but I'm not expecting a response any time this decade. If this set gets made, it will have to do so under the auspices of benign neglect from Fox.

In any event, apart from the D|T, G|H, and r|m tribute keys, I'm not going to make any key that refers to the name of anything (like Weyland-Yutani). I'm also not planning to use any Semiotic symbol that (I feel) Ron Cobb would not have allowed to appear on film.

I hope everyone understands and appreciates the philosophy behind my decision there.

[mogo]

Best of luck navigating the legal barriers (or avoiding them altogether) because I sure as heck would pick up a set of this, even if you have to make some... artistic alterations to scoot around to the realm of safe-to-use. 

[Arallu]

This set is already in somewhat murky territory with regard to copyrights. I await word from 20th Century Fox business relations, but I'm not expecting a response any time this decade. If this set gets made, it will have to do so under the auspices of benign neglect from Fox.

In any event, apart from the D|T, G|H, and r|m tribute keys, I'm not going to make any key that refers to the name of anything (like Weyland-Yutani). I'm also not planning to use any Semiotic symbol that (I feel) Ron Cobb would not have allowed to appear on film.

I hope everyone understands and appreciates the philosophy behind my decision there.

Gotcha, totally understand!

[derezzed]

This set is already in somewhat murky territory with regard to copyrights. I await word from 20th Century Fox business relations, but I'm not expecting a response any time this decade. If this set gets made, it will have to do so under the auspices of benign neglect from Fox.

In any event, apart from the D|T, G|H, and r|m tribute keys, I'm not going to make any key that refers to the name of anything (like Weyland-Yutani). I'm also not planning to use any Semiotic symbol that (I feel) Ron Cobb would not have allowed to appear on film.

I hope everyone understands and appreciates the philosophy behind my decision there.

edit: I guess, to avoid misinterpretation, I should explain that I think your design philosophy for this set is spot on and should be the scale by which all requests are measured.

[parablol]

I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.

Could a homing key option be provided? I consider this a keyset for touch typing. Touch typing without homing keys seems impractically challenging.

[derezzed]

I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.

Could a homing key option be provided? I consider this a keyset for touch typing. Touch typing without homing keys seems impractically challenging.

edit:  -1 reading comprehension.  I failed to see that the poster quoted the exact same post that I quoted below, making my comment look snarky.  That was not my intent and I apologize if anyone interpreted this post as being rude. 

More

OP explains his decision in the post quoted below:

I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.

Having established that, if homing keys are an important enough issue for the majority of people who want this set, what about adding a couple blank homing keys to the set?  If someone didn't want to use the homing keys, they would still have the full set of semiotics at their disposal.  Or picking one key to use as homing keys and making three copies of that key: one without a homing nub, and two with a homing nub.  Of course, using them would result in the same symbol appearing 2 or 3 times on the keyboard.  Personally, I'm OK without homing keys on my cobbled together DSA-profile set, and I think I'll be OK without them on the Semiotic set.

[mogo]

I'm in the camp of Homing Keys. I don't mind that a couple symbols would be "fixed" on the board, I don't see that being a problem of any significance. If they're just additional keys (as derezzed suggested, being copies of a non-homing version) then that gives an option people for who really don't want those symbols in those spots. For whatever reason.

[zslane]

Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

[mogo]

Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

(Attachment Link)

    

[pixelpusher]

Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

(Attachment Link)

Perfect!

[zslane]

Am I correct in understanding that the ErgoDox only has three sizes of keycaps: 1u, 1.5u, and 2u?

[jebbra]

A suggesion, can you make the design on numpad but on the alphas? You know, for a cleaner version overall 

Then it wouldn't be G20 Semiotic, but G20 EDS Panel.  A different set with a different focus.

Not that such a set isn't worth doing, just not by me necessarily. The modifiers draw from the EDS panel out of necessity (i.e., the Semiotic symbols look wrong on anything but 1u keys, IMO), and the numpad does so only because its ortholinear layout makes it feasible (it would be an ugly mess to try and force an intrinsically ortholinear design around staggered alphas). As cool as the EDS panel is (I love it too), that motif was never intended to be the guiding aesthetic of the entire set. Moreover, you'd lose the ability to arrange the alphas however you wish, which I think is an appealing benefit of the Semiotic symbols. Being purely symbolic, they are linguistically uninflected and therefore intrinsically international and function-adaptable.

In fact, the inclusion of the numpad was almost an afterthought; I was primarily inspired to create something for small layouts, not full-size boards, despite my own general preference for them. If you were to put this set on a 60% or smaller board, there would be a Semiotic symbol available for every 1u key you'd need covered.

Just realized EDC and Semiotic is a different subject. I use a planck and the all semiotic symbol on top of it looks too messy for me. How about a special EDC alpha kit fot ortholinear board? With a twist of content like writing E-F instead of only E we can make support multiple layouts at once.

[zslane]

When I do a google search, I see a couple of different layouts for European numpads. Is there one in particular that is the dominant layout?

[josephwilk]

Am I correct in understanding that the ErgoDox only has three sizes of keycaps: 1u, 1.5u, and 2u?

Yes that's right. Example layout of a ergodox: https://github.com/ErgoDox-EZ/docs/blob/master/blank%20keycaps%20layout%20(1).pdf

[iFreilicht]

Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

(Attachment Link)

That's absolutely perfect, thank you so much!

When I do a google search, I see a couple of different layouts for European numpads. Is there one in particular that is the dominant layout?

If you're talking about the fact that some layouts have a smaller + key and an additional key below that, that's not that common, and I think it's not part of any language defined layout but of apple keyboards. The only other layout that has this that I'm aware of is brazilian. What exact layouts did you find?

[zslane]

Here are the two layouts I found:





Also, I sometimes see a "00" key instead of "000" at the bottom, and a "," instead of a "." (presumably because in Europe, the decimal point and comma are used for the opposite of what they are in the US).

[zslane]

Alternate layout questions for everyone:

1. Is there ever a need for more than two 1.75u keys (e.g., CapsLock & Shift)?

2. Is there ever a need for more than two 2.25u keys (both of them Shift keys)?

3. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

4. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1.5u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

[Vigrith]

I don't personally use ISO but I believe ISO UK at least uses 1.25, don't know of any that use 1 or 1.5 (though I guess some ergo layouts like planck probably do).

[zslane]

Here is the "Extras" kit so far. Consider it a work in progress, of course. Many of the keys satisfy various WhiteFox layouts, which I figure covers a lot of territory. The 2u key is intended to be used as a Planck spacebar, but it could be used in any 2u position, really.



I'm also thinking that the international numpad keys could go in this kit since the ISO UK keys are there.

[iFreilicht]

Here is the "Extras" kit so far. Consider it a work in progress, of course. Many of the keys satisfy various WhiteFox layouts, which I figure covers a lot of territory. The 2u key is intended to be used as a Planck spacebar, but it could be used in any 2u position, really.

(Attachment Link)

I'm also thinking that the international numpad keys could go in this kit since the ISO UK keys are there.

Looks good!

Alternate layout questions for everyone:

1. Is there ever a need for more than two 1.75u keys (e.g., CapsLock & Shift)?

2. Is there ever a need for more than two 2.25u keys (both of them Shift keys)?

3. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

4. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1.5u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

3. 1u Shift is used by ortholinear boards (1 or 2, depending on layout) and the Filco Minila Air. The ISO version even has two 1u Shifts. It also has a 1.75u Ctrl key, but that would be covered by the extras set already.

4. 1.25 Shift is indeed used on ISO keyboards.

Here are the two layouts I found:

Show Image

Show Image

Also, I sometimes see a "00" key instead of "000" at the bottom, and a "," instead of a "." (presumably because in Europe, the decimal point and comma are used for the opposite of what they are in the US).

That's completely new to me, I don't believe this is part of any European standard. I do support a 1u 0 key that's in line with the numpad aesthetic, I'd be using that. Though I'm not sure how many would find that useful. Some boards like the Kishsaver also have a 1u Pad0, so maybe the demand exists.

Yes, decimal point and comma are swapped here, but I think a normal point in that location would be just fine.

[zslane]

So on an international numpad, when the 1u + key is used, what goes in the other 1u space? If it is a 1u - key, then what goes in place of the 1u - key in the upper right corner? Is there a good image showing a typical international numpad?

[iFreilicht]

As I said, normally we have a 2u + as well, so the International Standard isn't any different. The Brazilian layout has a . there and a , where the. is normally. Apple keyboards have an additional = key.

So I'm afraid there is no actual resource on this. It's really just a question of alternate layouts for the numpad in general.

EDIT: The Miami Dolch has a pretty good numpad kit in my opinion:

[mogo]

As I said, normally we have a 2u + as well, so the International Standard isn't any different. The Brazilian layout has a . there and a , where the. is normally. Apple keyboards have an additional = key.

So I'm afraid there is no actual resource on this. It's really just a question of alternate layouts for the numpad in general.

EDIT: The Miami Dolch has a pretty good numpad kit in my opinion:

That's pretty much perfect in my opinion. Split 0/00 is about the only real deviation I've ever seen in numpads. Homing 5 key would be great to add to the Semiotics kit, obviously.

[zslane]

I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?

[zslane]

Homing 5 key would be great to add to the Semiotics kit, obviously.

When I get around to the child kit renders, I'll be sure to add a homing 5 to the numpad kit.

[infodroid]

Damn, zslane... You really nailed it with this set! The concept and mockups are outstanding.

I've had the Alien keyboard as my desktop wallpaper for some time now. I never thought it might ever become an actual set.

[iFreilicht]

I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?

As I said, either an = symbol, which is useful in excel for example, or a , so you have both the decimal point and thousands comma on the pad.

The four keys above in the Miami Dolch set are supposed to be optionally used on separate keypads like the Leopold 210TP which have 21 keys instead of 17. They're also useful for ortholinear keyboards.

Homing 5 key would be great to add to the Semiotics kit, obviously.

When I get around to the child kit renders, I'll be sure to add a homing 5 to the numpad kit.

Im all in for a homing option on 5, that's a great addition!

[JaccoW]

I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?

Simple answer: Compact layouts.

Check the numpad area of an G80-1800. It uses a 1x "+" with a 1x "-" above it.
Similarly, compact numpads such as the Roadkit don't always need/have room for a 2x "+" key.

As for the 4 extra keys; Filco Majestouch TenKeyPad and similar keypads use those for keys like 'Esc', 'Tab', 'Backspace' and '='. But that really depends on the model.

[derezzed]

I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?

As I said, either an = symbol, which is useful in excel for example, or a , so you have both the decimal point and thousands comma on the pad.

The four keys above in the Miami Dolch set are supposed to be optionally used on separate keypads like the Leopold 210TP which have 21 keys instead of 17. They're also useful for ortholinear keyboards.

It looks like different manufacturers use different keys for the top row on 21-key number pads.




There may be some overlap between models.  People with 21-key number pads (I'm one of them) may have to compromise when choosing what to put on the top row of their number pads.   Maybe we'll have unused EDS keys from the non-num pad kit (if that's how the kits break down) or maybe we'll have to use a couple of the semiotic keys.

[zslane]

Here is the latest Extras kit manifest, which now includes two 1u Shift keys and the international numpad keys.



And here are the international numpad keys as they might appear on a numpad. Note that the 1u "+" key and the 1u "other" key are interchangeable in terms of position.



I should have WhiteFox layout renders later this week. Stay tuned!

[parablol]

Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys.

Pleased to have homing keys as part of this set! 

[zslane]

Here is what I have currently for the ErgoDox kit. I'd like to hear from Ergo users as to whether they would prefer to have this as its own kit, or have these keys added into the Extras kit.

[zslane]

Here are the WhiteFox renders I promised. Note that the 7u spacebar in the Winkeyless layout is a DSA spacebar since the G20 family only has a 6.25u spacebar.

[pomk]

Excellent!

[ticktwo]

wow! nice one dude

[iFreilicht]

Here are the WhiteFox renders I promised. Note that the 7u spacebar in the Winkeyless layout is a DSA spacebar since the G20 family only has a 6.25u spacebar.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Damn that looks amazing.

Here is the latest Extras kit manifest, which now includes two 1u Shift keys and the international numpad keys.

(Attachment Link)

And here are the international numpad keys as they might appear on a numpad. Note that the 1u "+" key and the 1u "other" key are interchangeable in terms of position.

(Attachment Link)

I should have WhiteFox layout renders later this week. Stay tuned!

Love it! Just having this "other" key that fits with the numpad aesthetic is a good solution, and your extras set looks very promising, I could deck out pretty much any board I'd ever want to build with that.

I still think it's a bit of a waste to have a comma-key for the numpad. The whole layout is purely pictograpic, a dot on the comma key is not going to ruin anyone's day. I'd rather get an additional 1u symbol or "other" key than having the comma.

Other than that, I would totally get this set in its current form. I'd only need symbols, numpad and extras to deck out my full-grid atomic, but if alphas are bundled with the symbols to bring the price down for everyone else, I'd probably be fine with that as it allows the set to be reused on different boards later on.

[mogo]

I figure if we're getting all the mathematics symbols and numbers, the decimal dot/comma kinda has to be there, it would look a little out of place if it was just ignored. Ooh, actually, for international compatibility the legend on that key can include a dot AND a comma, and you can ignore whichever doesn't make sense for your region.

[Vigrith]

Renders look sick, Zslane, for real. I'm definitely still in for a set as I said right from the start.

[zslane]

Thanks, Vigrith! 

Once I have the kit renders, I'll post all this over on DT. Would anyone be willing to point the reddit crowd over here for me? I imagine we're really going to need to spread the word as much as possible on this in order to accumulate enough votes on PMK to push it into production.

Of course, I will try to negotiate with Melissa on a lower vote threshold to kickstart production on the grounds that the G20 family needs all the help it can get in gaining popularity with the community.

[pixelpusher]

Thanks, Vigrith! 

Once I have the kit renders, I'll post all this over on DT. Would anyone be willing to point the reddit crowd over here for me? I imagine we're really going to need to spread the word as much as possible on this in order to accumulate enough votes on PMK to push it into production.

Of course, I will try to negotiate with Melissa on a lower vote threshold to kickstart production on the grounds that the G20 family needs all the help it can get in gaining popularity with the community.

Seem to be a new set a month now at PMK...Maybe it could be the December feature!

[josephwilk]

Here is what I have currently for the ErgoDox kit. I'd like to hear from Ergo users as to whether they would prefer to have this as its own kit, or have these keys added into the Extras kit.

(Attachment Link)

For me I would say it's own kit. Getting very excited about this kit!

[jebbra]

Looking good zslane! Surely order a numpad kit, alphas, and mod kit with most 1u 

[derezzed]

I don't own an Alps board but I still considered buying a set of cheap Alps keycaps just in case.  I don't own a Topre board but I considered buying a set of sliders for the same reason.  I was curious about DSA keycaps but never had a strong desire to try them until LightCycle came along.  I've considered buying things I might never use because I might have a use for them some time in the future.  I could put a set of G20 caps to immediate use but I was never once curious about G20, never thought about it after discovering it, and never even considered buying a G20 set.  Semiotic put G20 at the top of my list of keyboard-related things that interest me.  I think this set will pique the interest of a lot of people who've never considered G20 before.  That's how top-notch this set's design is. 

Also, I've scoured PMK's website twice now and I still haven't found a page for voting.  Is it something that's only visible when there are sets to vote for?

[zslane]

Here's an updated ErgoDox kit. I switched two of the 2u keys with new graphics.



Here's an updated Extras kit. Just a small tweak to the ISO Return key, and the addition of the toprow \| key.



The next step will be a high-res orthographic render of all the kits with all the keys. Stay tuned!