ISO-Layout keyboards are mistreated?

[Zorox]

Im struggling looking for a 60% ISO which is not custom build. And there is too little options out there in the market. As surfing GH I saw a large amount of Europe users but why ISO are not so popular in many stores? Do the producers/vendors really want to force ISO users to approach custom PCBs?

[henz]

Im struggling looking for a 60% ISO which is not custom build. And there is too little options out there in the market. As surfing GH I saw a large amount of Europe users but why ISO are not so popular in many stores? Do the producers/vendors really want to force ISO users to approach custom PCBs?

You have the poker which you can find on amazon etc. I think the problem is that the 60% keyboard does not have the market as the other sizes have.

[azhdar]

The iso life is really hard to achieve but if you're comminited you can do it.

[Zorox]

Im struggling looking for a 60% ISO which is not custom build. And there is too little options out there in the market. As surfing GH I saw a large amount of Europe users but why ISO are not so popular in many stores? Do the producers/vendors really want to force ISO users to approach custom PCBs?

You have the poker which you can find on amazon etc. I think the problem is that the 60% keyboard does not have the market as the other sizes have.

yeah Poker seems to be the only choice and a good choice indeed, but that feeling that you have not much to choose is frustrating

The iso life is really hard to achieve but if you're comminited you can do it.

yeah I think I need to learn how to solder now

[azhdar]

When you think about it, ANSI is the large majority of the keyboards, and the minority that ISO is is made of several ISO(German,English,Italian,...). So for a manufacturer, ANSI makes a lot more sense.

Which ISO are you using?

60% ISO there is also the ducky mini.

[chyros]

Like Azhdar said, ANSI is just good for the manufacturer. Iirc some study pointed out the ANSI enter is the worst in terms of accessibility. Personally I think it's horrendous, but then again, I'm a **** typist xD .

[henz]

I was on the ISO train when i started my adventures on geekhack. I worked hard to find whati needed. I left the ISO train when i found out hte keycap GB world.

[Zorox]

When you think about it, ANSI is the large majority of the keyboards, and the minority that ISO is is made of several ISO(German,English,Italian,...). So for a manufacturer, ANSI makes a lot more sense.

Which ISO are you using?

60% ISO there is also the ducky mini.

Im using DE-ISO (German) on a BWU, but thinking of switching to 60% because of mobility and free place on the desk. The accented letters in German are used frequently and I feel much better with them on the layout, and yes the ISO Enter is more comfortable.

[azhdar]

http://corus-kb.com/de/pok3r-/31-poker-3-pbt-iso-de-alu-casing-german-qwertz-black-version.html

German Keycaps are quite easy to find since Cherry is german so a lot of German Chery keycaps were printed.

[katushkin]

Ducky Mini is another way you could go for 60% ISO

[Zorox]

Yeah I have got 2 keycap set from vintage cherry boards and it wont be a problem I think. But many other nice boards out there have no ISO variants, that makes me sad

[jdcarpe]

Yeah I have got 2 keycap set from vintage cherry boards and it wont be a problem I think. But many other nice boards out there have no ISO variants, that makes me sad

If you think about the computer-using population of the world, only a small percentage uses ISO layouts. North America and Asia both use ANSI, which accounts for the vast majority of people who would purchase keyboards. You have to think economies of scale, and what the potential market would be for a manufacturer.

[Voltasalt]

Yeah I have got 2 keycap set from vintage cherry boards and it wont be a problem I think. But many other nice boards out there have no ISO variants, that makes me sad

If you think about the computer-using population of the world, only a small percentage uses ISO layouts. North America and Asia both use ANSI, which accounts for the vast majority of people who would purchase keyboards. You have to think economies of scale, and what the potential market would be for a manufacturer.

There are 500 million people in the EU. For comparison, there are about 350 million in North America. Asia is a whole other beast but not a lot of Asians seem to be buying fancy keyboards.

[0100010]

I have met several developers who were in the US on business, who lament the ISO layout due to the short left shift.  One even carried an ANSI keyboard to use with his laptop.

[Hyde]

If you just even break it down by keyboard companies by region:

Mainly ANSI:

Filco - Japan
Topre - Japan
PFU - Japan (HHKB)
Ducky - Taiwan
Vortex - Taiwan
KBParadise - Taiwan
Leopold - Korea
KUL - USA
Varmilo - China
WASD Keyboard - USA
Das Keyboards - USA (even though I initially got tricked thinking they're German)
Max Keyboard - USA
Deck - USA
Matias - Canada (Majority use ANSI English layout, some use ISO French layout)
Unicomp - USA
Razer - USA
Corsair - USA
CM Storm - Taiwan
Thermaltake - Taiwan

Mainly ISO:

Cherry - Germany
Logitech - Switzerland
SteelSeries - Denmark
Mionix - Sweden

Granted this is a rough list since most of the big name companies now (Razer, Logitech..... etc) are pretty international also most Asian countries have their own Asian layout (though most seems to be based from ANSI).

But just at a rough glance you can see most of the companies are originated from ANSI layout based countries.

[Giorgio]

I don't know what 60% keyboard comes close to a pok3r, so your problem may be quite artificial. If you want an inferior keyboard, yes, the choice is quite limited, but the existence of the poker is what causes such scarcity.

You can build a custom 60% keyboard for about $120 excluding keycaps. Buy an aluminum case by pexon, a gon PCB, gateron or cherry switches. Done.

Don't make the mistake of abandoning ISO to have more choices in ANSI, don't become a slave of your own passion.

[Metalmind]

For me ISO is better than ansi.
1 key more on the main layout.
More comfortable enter key.
The short left key never was a problem for me.

[Zorox]

yeah shorter L-Shift is no problem to me too, maybe because I was used to ISO for 1/3 of my life (8 years in Germany).

But I see a big monopoly here in keyboard game called ANSI. The less ISO variants out there means the higher price (you need to see the ridiculous price of ISO boards/keycap in Germany), also the buyers portion will be reduced too. This reduction causes the manufactors to ignore ISO because they cant profit from small group of buyers and high taxes. So that ISO market is now devoured by mass produced boards from gaming companies, which we are not so prefered.

[azhdar]

It's totally doable to have ISO keyboards, but you'll have to work for this, very few mech keyboards do ISO outside of gaming brands.
Some customs allow ISO, I'm at my 4-5th ISO custom, and on two of this I debugged ISO with the maker because it hasn't been tested  )

Keycaps are probably the hardest part, unless you're UK ISO and you can see several GB/year with your layout in it. For non UK ISO it happens once a year, and you pay kits that are expensive.

The others options are :
- blank keycaps.
- browse thousand of dirty keyboards on your country Craigslist and hope to find something.

[Findecanor]

If you think about the computer-using population of the world, only a small percentage uses ISO layouts.

There are 500 million people in the EU. For comparison, there are about 350 million in North America. Asia is a whole other beast but not a lot of Asians seem to be buying fancy keyboards.

Yep, but while US-ANSI is one layout, there are lots of ISO layouts. UK is the one most close to US-ANSI, but not everyone wants that.
UK and US-ANSI has one set of Shifted symbols for the numeric row, German, Italian, Spanish and the Nordic layouts has another set with different symbols on the right. Swiss layout differs from German on the left side, and then there are the French and Belgian layouts that are just weird ...

Several group buys that have had "ISO support" have not even followed the UK standard but been a half-assed form of US-ISO with the wrong symbols in some places for any layout.

[DesignerNeil]

Yeah I don't really get this. It isn't just about the number of users, its about the number of users willing/able to spend $200 on a keyboard.  And your going to find much more of them in Europe than in China for example.

The EU is the largest economy in the world. Although growth is projected to be slow, it remains the largest economy in the world with a GDP per head of €25 000 for its 500 million consumers. And according to Wikipedia, Both the US and the EU account from a little under 27% of global trade each. More than 1/4 of global trade is hardly a market to ignore for any business.

Me, I'm sticking to ISO no matter what colour my keycaps have to be. As an Adobe Creative cloud user who uses tons of shortcuts, my left pinky would be lost without that short left shift- never mind the more comfortable enter key.

[Zorox]

Yeah I think the consumers in EU willing to pay more, and of course it was a big potential market. But now with the way it was treated, we can see it going under fast. I have recently order the Carbon SA keyset, while 65$ for the base kit, and 40$ for ISO-kit, yeah 40$ for all the ISO options (DE, Nordic etc.) and I use only 1/5 from this kit. But I am willing to pay it for my convenient.

Things could be better if they offers more ISO version of boards, keysets etc., even with high prices and limited numbers, but please do it. So that the demands raised with it, and as concequences the price would probably go down.

[Polymer]

Yeah I don't really get this. It isn't just about the number of users, its about the number of users willing/able to spend $200 on a keyboard.  And your going to find much more of them in Europe than in China for example.

The EU is the largest economy in the world. Although growth is projected to be slow, it remains the largest economy in the world with a GDP per head of €25 000 for its 500 million consumers. And according to Wikipedia, Both the US and the EU account from a little under 27% of global trade each. More than 1/4 of global trade is hardly a market to ignore for any business.

Me, I'm sticking to ISO no matter what colour my keycaps have to be. As an Adobe Creative cloud user who uses tons of shortcuts, my left pinky would be lost without that short left shift- never mind the more comfortable enter key.

ISO isn't a consistent layout and differs between some countries which definitely doesn't help...

As far as Europe and China...maybe..maybe not..I think Chinese are more interested in keyboards and while not everyone can afford an expensive keyboard, there are plenty that can.
But forgetting about China, you also have Japan, South Korea, Taiwan...Quite a few users on here from APAC/Oceania and they all use ANSI as well...

If there was a true demand for Mechanical ISO stuff, it probably would've started to emerge..who knows, it might still...You see some stuff here and there but if it did exceedingly well, they'd be releasing more of it. 

[Giorgio]

Yeah I don't really get this. It isn't just about the number of users, its about the number of users willing/able to spend $200 on a keyboard.  And your going to find much more of them in Europe than in China for example.

The EU is the largest economy in the world. Although growth is projected to be slow, it remains the largest economy in the world with a GDP per head of €25 000 for its 500 million consumers. And according to Wikipedia, Both the US and the EU account from a little under 27% of global trade each. More than 1/4 of global trade is hardly a market to ignore for any business.

Me, I'm sticking to ISO no matter what colour my keycaps have to be. As an Adobe Creative cloud user who uses tons of shortcuts, my left pinky would be lost without that short left shift- never mind the more comfortable enter key.

ISO isn't a consistent layout and differs between some countries which definitely doesn't help...

As far as Europe and China...maybe..maybe not..I think Chinese are more interested in keyboards and while not everyone can afford an expensive keyboard, there are plenty that can.
But forgetting about China, you also have Japan, South Korea, Taiwan...Quite a few users on here from APAC/Oceania and they all use ANSI as well...

If there was a true demand for Mechanical ISO stuff, it probably would've started to emerge..who knows, it might still...You see some stuff here and there but if it did exceedingly well, they'd be releasing more of it.

You have to create demand. In Italy you can't find mechanical keyboards in any shop. Until a year ago I didn't even know that mechanical keyboards still existed, and that they were so good. With the new cherry silent switch more markets will open. Let's face it, even with reds with orings you can't use such a keyboard in an open space.
Things will get better.

[Zorox]

True demand comes from offers. The less offer cause the smaller buy group and kills that minority. That's what Im talking about. Even big tech companies have strategy for EU to retain that market although they cant compare to USA or China.

[Polymer]

You have to create demand. In Italy you can't find mechanical keyboards in any shop. Until a year ago I didn't even know that mechanical keyboards still existed, and that they were so good. With the new cherry silent switch more markets will open. Let's face it, even with reds with orings you can't use such a keyboard in an open space.
Things will get better.

Would be nice if so..prices might actually drop all around...but for the most part, most people don't want a mech keyboard...when you're used to spending 20..maybe 30-40 dollars on the higher end for a keyboard, spending 100+ on something that looks "old fashioned" just doesn't carry over well to the general public. 

But who knows...used to be no one cared about computer cases...then people started putting artwork, etc and suddenly spending a few hundred on a case wasn't a big deal...

[Oobly]

I've switched between ISO and ANSI boards a lot during my years using computers, which has affected my typing habits. I now use right Shift exclusively as a result. However, I use ANSI exclusively on my customs / mechanicals, mainly for keycap compatibility, but I also prefer the aesthetics of ANSI.

ISO layout does have a lot of users, but there are so many ISO character layouts, whereas ANSI has less. So a manufacturer can target a bigger market with a single ANSI layout. If they do bring out ISO layouts, they tend to focus on UK, German, French and Nordic layouts in that priority, but since there are so many possible layouts, some just use UK with extra characters front printed on the relevant caps.

Pok3r and Ducky Mini are the two most common 60% boards that come in ISO.

Many users of mechanicals in Europe have done the same as me and switch to ANSI, though, since it doesn't take much adaptation and the options are much greater.

[jacobolus]

ANSI is a stupid keyboard arrangement, with awkwardly/uncomfortably placed right shift, delete, escape, return, and various modifier keys.

ISO somehow manages to be even worse! On ISO, the enter key and left shift are both an extra key further away, making them substantially less convenient.

Truly idiotic.

[seville57]

I've switched between ISO and ANSI boards a lot during my years using computers, which has affected my typing habits. I now use right Shift exclusively as a result. However, I use ANSI exclusively on my customs / mechanicals, mainly for keycap compatibility, but I also prefer the aesthetics of ANSI.

ISO layout does have a lot of users, but there are so many ISO character layouts, whereas ANSI has less. So a manufacturer can target a bigger market with a single ANSI layout. If they do bring out ISO layouts, they tend to focus on UK, German, French and Nordic layouts in that priority, but since there are so many possible layouts, some just use UK with extra characters front printed on the relevant caps.

Pok3r and Ducky Mini are the two most common 60% boards that come in ISO.

Many users of mechanicals in Europe have done the same as me and switch to ANSI, though, since it doesn't take much adaptation and the options are much greater.

One of them users who switched to ANSI last year, still I have my Ducky Shine 2/3 ISO/Nordic k-boards left but never use them.

Gettin nice good lookin ISO/Nordic keycaps sets to ISO/Nordic k-boards is a hell.

I have 2 Ducky ISO/Nordic keycaps sets and 1 set from WASD, the rest is ANSI sets.

[chyros]

ANSI is a stupid keyboard arrangement, with awkwardly/uncomfortably placed right shift, delete, escape, return, and various modifier keys.

ISO somehow manages to be even worse! On ISO, the enter key and left shift are both an extra key further away, making them substantially less convenient.

Truly idiotic.

I agree, all hail the bigass enter!

[Metalmind]

I don't mind the printed characters on a ISO board, just like the extra key and the enter key. I use to write in my own modified dvorak for spanish.
And for programing...

[azhdar]

Many users of mechanicals in Europe have done the same as me and switch to ANSI, though, since it doesn't take much adaptation and the options are much greater.

I couldn't switch to ANSI not because of the ISO enter (that I don't prefer over the ansi ) but because of the missing key next to Lshift, I agree remapping is a possibility(all of my the boards I use are programmable), but it's just not conveniant.

And it's also save me from buying all the GMK GB but only the one to match my WOB & BOW So it's a way to save some money.

[Zorox]

Many users of mechanicals in Europe have done the same as me and switch to ANSI, though, since it doesn't take much adaptation and the options are much greater.

I couldn't switch to ANSI not because of the ISO enter (that I don't prefer other the ansi ) but because of the missing key next to Lshift, I agree remapping is a possibility(all of my the boards I use are programmable), but it's just not conveniant.

And it's also save me from buying all the GMK GB but only the one to match my WOB & BOW So it's a way to save some money.

Haha the saving is really a big deal, just because we have too little of ISO options and Im insisting on using ISO

[Lokomotivet]

ISO struggler here. It's not THAT bad if you got some patience.
Saw a thread on Reddit with a guy running a new store on the web who's been talking to Tai Hao to make some ISO sets.