Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)

[The_Ed]

Look at the Deck Legend. All of the legends are on the top half of the keys, directly above the LEDs. All switches are oriented upside down with the LEDs on top. And the ENTIRE bottom of the keycaps allows light through, not just a mesh.

[tsangan]

That thing has 78 keys, you want a 138 key keyboard :rofl:

[hazeluff]

Look at the Deck Legend. All of the legends are on the top half of the keys, directly underneath the LEDs. All switches are oriented upside down with the LEDs on top. And the ENTIRE bottom of the keycaps allows light through, not just a mesh.

Yeah but SP can't make it that way = /. We can put the LEDs on the top where the legends are, but noone to make us caps.

[The_Ed]

Ask Deck who makes their keycaps. And if they make them in-house if they would make custom sets for us.

[tsangan]

Ask Deck who makes their keycaps. And if they make them in-house if they would make custom sets for us.

They don't even make sets of their own for sale separately, people have asked. So chances of anyone asking them to make a custom set are slim to none

[The_Ed]

You could bribe them with one of your cherry red esc tsangan. And you still haven't told me "where" you got your WNV...

[hazeluff]

Ask Deck who makes their keycaps. And if they make them in-house if they would make custom sets for us.

Sent email.

Lets see. There's also Ducky/Razer?

[The_Ed]

I know personally that the razer won't last more than a few years. They are just rubber painted onto clearish white keycaps that have had the legends lasered off.

[hazeluff]

NICE pic!

Must be why I am the Number One Keyboard Expert On The Planet.

Vote here:
http://geekhack.org/poll.php?pollid=309&do=showresults

I voted. ; p

Ripster, If you are #1, Answer this:
Who will make us keycaps with transparent legends?

[hazeluff]

I know personally that the razer won't last more than a few years. They are just rubber painted onto clearish white keycaps that have had the legends lasered off.

I know it's terrible. Its always a option, a rather poor one that's probably better not done.

[demik]

Make this

Show Image

This. A million times this.

We already have one tenkeyless GH keyboard, let's go for something smaller.

[The_Ed]

I just noticed that you voted NO to Ripster... I think you've just signed your own death warrant. He already doesn't like me so I won't vote.

[The_Ed]

The thing I don't like about that 2 piece method is the square seam on the top of the keycaps... But it is still technically the best method for backlit keys right?

[hazeluff]

The thing I don't like about that 2 piece method is the square seam on the top of the keycaps... But it is still technically the best method for backlit keys right?

Between this and the Razer method, I'd go for the Deck method.

If they are indeed PBT. I have an idea. But it might get costly. Get a white translucent keycaps and dyesub the legends on. I reckon that would be cool.

[tsangan]

Between this and the Razer method, I'd go for the Deck method.

They both don't sound appealing at all :peep:

[hazeluff]

They both don't sound appealing at all :peep:

I edited for a crazier option 3. What do you think about Translucent keycap with dyesub legends?

[tsangan]

I edited for a crazier option 3. What do you think about Translucent keycap with dyesub legends?

I dont want to go blind

[hazeluff]

I dont want to go blind

Going more for a "glow" and less "blind". Tho we should have the option to set keyboard to LAZER.

[The_Ed]

la S er... not Z. And I already have lasers. The goggles are what's expensive when it comes to lasers. The 2 pairs I own cost $87.60 and $157.94. Better safe than sorry. I wonder how long it will take to pay off school loans when I keep buying all sorts of "toys"... Though if the keyboard could blind an unauthorized user that would be friggin' awesome!

[hazeluff]

la S er... not Z. And I already have lasers. The goggles are what's expensive when it comes to lasers. The 2 pairs I own cost $87.60 and $157.94. Better safe than sorry. I wonder how long it will take to pay off school loans when I keep buying all sorts of "toys"... Though if the keyboard could blind an unauthorized user that would be friggin' awesome!

@_@ Physics? Playing with LaZeRz?

I spell it Lazer because I'm too cool for school.

[The_Ed]

Does anybody even have a machine that can dyesub the entire keycap minus the legend?

And I have lasers to burn things. Because burning things is cool. Uh huh huh... (beavis and butthead)

I swear that close to 2/3 of the posts here must be from us 2...

[hazeluff]

Does anybody even have a machine that can dyesub the entire keycap minus the legend?

And I have lasers to burn things. Because burning things is cool. Uh huh huh... (beavis and butthead)

I swear that close to 2/3 of the posts here must be from us 2...

That wasn't what I was suggesting. I was actually suggesting a glowing keycap with dark legends (because I don't think anyone dyesubs whole keys).

[The_Ed]

So then I WOULD need my laser goggles! Too much light would go through the keycaps. And Plus clearish white would look HORRIBLE on a black keyboard!

Try to get SP to do the Deck Legend method.

[hazeluff]

So then I WOULD need my laser goggles! Too much light would go through the keycaps. And Plus clearish white would look HORRIBLE on a black keyboard!

Try to get SP to do the Deck Legend method.

It's unfortunate if you use a black keyboard. I reckon it would look pretty badass. Unfortunately no way to test my theory out.
And as for blinding lights. I think if we use PWM to drop the intensity, it could give a nice ambient glow on the keys. Like I wasn't thinking closer to opaque than transparent. So looks opaque but glows when lit.

[The_Ed]

Seems like it would still give me a headache trying to see the legends through the glow. When I used the razer blackwidow ultimate in the past I had to turn it down low. I don't have enough pigment in the back of my eyes so my pupil expands to the size of my iris in a normally lit room. I can't see in the dark, and outside I'm blinded... And I get those oh so pleasant optical migraines from my dad's side... Oh and I also have glasses because I can't see even 6 inches anymore... I have a headache right now... And this is why I thought that I should still use a standard doubleshot set and just have the ambient glow around the keys... I need to go get some excedrin now...

[hazeluff]

Seems like it would still give me a headache trying to see the legends through the glow. When I used the razer blackwidow ultimate in the past I had to turn it down low. I don't have enough pigment in the back of my eyes so my pupil expands to the size of my iris in a normally lit room. I can't see in the dark, and outside I'm blinded... And I get those oh so pleasant optical migraines from my dad's side... Oh and I also have glasses because I can't see even 6 inches anymore... I have a headache right now... And this is why I thought that I should still use a standard doubleshot set and just have the ambient glow around the keys... I need to go get some excedrin now...

= ( Thats gotta suck...

Maybe we will leave you with normal keycaps.

[The_Ed]

normal or Deck style turned low.

[alaricljs]

It was my understanding that the red/yellow Chinese flag cap was done as a yellow PBT keycap dyed red and lasered to get the yellow to show linky   makes me wonder about white PBT dyed black and lasered... Mmmm PBT

[hazeluff]

It was my understanding that the red/yellow Chinese flag cap was done as a yellow PBT keycap dyed red and lasered to get the yellow to show linky   makes me wonder about white PBT dyed black and lasered... Mmmm PBT

They are lazered and then filled with paint. You can see the dip in them. I've got a few keycaps from taobao which are done the same way.

[Findecanor]

+ 8 above numpad - can use 3 of the top 4 switches' LED traces for the 3 "lock" LEDs
+ 16 in an extra row underneath Esc through Pause/Break that are in cherry G80/G81 -3000 positions
[...]
Fits into cherry G80/G81 -3000 cases

There are features inside the G8x-3000 cases that would make those requirements a bit difficult.

There are both "newer" cases for keyboards with windows keys, and there are older winkeyless cases.
These look almost the same from the outside, but they are somewhat different inside. The winkeyless cases are of higher quality with thicker plastic, so I think that they could be more desirable for this custom keyboard.

What complicates things is that there are poles here and there protruding from the top and/or bottom of the case through the PCB to hold it steady, and most of them are located in-between the function row and the numeric row where the extra row of function keys would go.
These poles are also in somewhat different positions inside newer and older cases, but the winkeyless cases have much fewer of them.
With a newer case, you would also have to cut away plastic for keys above the numpad.

Having an extra row of keys above the function row old would also involve some cutting, but a lot less and you wouldn't have to be tidy. The plastic could be twisted off with a pair of pliers even.

Also:
* It is not possible to add a plate without a lot of cutting, and it is a bit difficult (and noisy and dusty if you use a dremel)
* Winkeyless and winkeyful keyboards have lock LEDs in different positions (but that is a minor issue)

(I know this because I transplanted a Chicony 5181 with plate-mounted Monterey switches into a newer G80-3000 case ... and then I got an older case and did it all over again. I should really post pics of that mod ...)

[Parak]

The thing I don't like about that 2 piece method is the square seam on the top of the keycaps... But it is still technically the best method for backlit keys right?

It's still not the most optimal, judging from my used TG3s. The top coating is basically fading out to the point of letting more of the backlight through, and washing out the legend.

I wonder if the reverse would be more feasible, where the cap is clear with some color of an infill. The LEDs can then be wide angle, for a rather different effect than typical backlit keyboards, but at least forever lasting.

[hazeluff]

There are features inside the G8x-3000 cases that would make those requirements a bit difficult.

There are both "newer" cases for keyboards with windows keys, and there are older winkeyless cases.
These look almost the same from the outside, but they are somewhat different inside. The winkeyless cases are of higher quality with thicker plastic, so I think that they could be more desirable for this custom keyboard.

What complicates things is that there are poles here and there protruding from the top and/or bottom of the case through the PCB to hold it steady, and most of them are located in-between the function row and the numeric row where the extra row of function keys would go.
These poles are also in somewhat different positions inside newer and older cases, but the winkeyless cases have much fewer of them.
With a newer case, you would also have to cut away plastic for keys above the numpad.

Having an extra row of keys above the function row old would also involve some cutting, but a lot less and you wouldn't have to be tidy. The plastic could be twisted off with a pair of pliers even.

Also:
* It is not possible to add a plate without a lot of cutting, and it is a bit difficult (and noisy and dusty if you use a dremel)
* Winkeyless and winkeyful keyboards have lock LEDs in different positions (but that is a minor issue)

(I know this because I transplanted a Chicony 5181 with plate-mounted Monterey switches into a newer G80-3000 case ... and then I got an older case and did it all over again. I should really post pics of that mod ...)

Can the Protruding bits be cut off? If not, if ther are only like a couple layouts for them, we can have holes for them.

 If one wishes to go for a extra function row then yes he will have to cut plastic. You can choose whether or not you want the extra keys above the number pad. For someone who wants to use the cases and don't want to cut plastic. I'd assume they would stick with the original layout that would fit inside the case. We're not designing it so that all versions fit in the Cherry cases. We're designing so that if you so choose to use a Cherry case, you can do it (but you'd have to give up extra keys if you don't want to cut things up).

Don't think there are issues, but thank you for pointing out those mounting pegs on the inside of cases.

As for the plate thing, I don't know whether or not we can put in PCB stabilizer slots. What's the reason for not being able to use plates?

[hazeluff]

It's still not the most optimal, judging from my used TG3s. The top coating is basically fading out to the point of letting more of the backlight through, and washing out the legend.

I wonder if the reverse would be more feasible, where the cap is clear with some color of an infill. The LEDs can then be wide angle, for a rather different effect than typical backlit keyboards, but at least forever lasting.

It might be possible to do that. I'm currently asking melissa about the clear/translucent PBT keycap with dyesub legends (will be costly as **** if possible).

Also reply from before about why they won't doubleshot clear on opaque and "other ways of doing clear legend on opaque keycap":

Correct - there will be blockage from the 'Grid' under the keycap - little to no light will come through.
The only way we can do translucent legends is to mold them in a translucent polycarbonate material, paint them with black paint, then engrave to expose the translucent legend. As you might image, this is our most expensive process.

[The_Ed]

It's not an inability, it's just the FEEL of typing on a PCB compared to a plate. I prefer the feel of PCB, but to do that I need the PCB holes to mount the switches and G99 stabilizers. To use the extra keys there will have to be plastic cut away, this was already known. But even if extra keys aren't used the extra row may call for a few nubs to be removed. I will open one of my keyboards up now to find out. I will post again in a few minutes.

[hazeluff]

It's not an inability, it's just the FEEL of typing on a PCB compared to a plate. I prefer the feel of PCB, but to do that I need the PCB holes to mount the switches and G99 stabilizers. To use the extra keys there will have to be plastic cut away, this was already known. But even if extra keys aren't used the extra row may call for a few nubs to be removed. I will open one of my keyboards up now to find out. I will post again in a few minutes.

Was explaining to the person I quoted.

The fact that using the cherry case may also mean the inability to add the extra keys.

[Parak]

The only way we can do translucent legends is to mold them in a translucent polycarbonate material, paint them with black paint, then engrave to expose the translucent legend. As you might image, this is our most expensive process.

Depending on the amount of paint used, this sounds like the type of method that was used on the keys on my cortrons. It is definitely a very durable process, but skimping on the paint turns it into a TG3/Deck keycap :/

[The_Ed]

Damn... I need to get my tamper proof bits...

[hazeluff]

Depending on the amount of paint used, this sounds like the type of method that was used on the keys on my cortrons. It is definitely a very durable process, but skimping on the paint turns it into a TG3/Deck keycap :/

The Razer BW are done with this method, The worry is the wear on them.

[The_Ed]

Those round "barrels" will have to be removed for all layouts. There are screw holes that can be used instead. There are a few stabilizing pins that need holes as well.

[The_Ed]

Okay! So there are 3 "barrel" things that would have to be cut off. The "lock" LED area would have to be ground down <2 millimeters to be flat. There are 5 screw holes for securing the PCB as well as 2 stabilizing pins. So there will have to be 7 holes in the PCB to secure it.

So basically <10 minutes with a dremel and you're good to go. Unless you want to cut out the front piece for extra switches of course.

[Parak]

The Razer BW are done with this method, The worry is the wear on them.

Yeah, the cortron uses extremely thick coating; I can see and feel the edges of it in the legend, and even the used board does not show any wear on the keycaps at all. I doubt that SP uses the same type of process..

[hazeluff]

Yeah, the cortron uses extremely thick coating; I can see and feel the edges of it in the legend, and even the used board does not show any wear on the keycaps at all. I doubt that SP uses the same type of process..

And neither do I like the edges on the legends @_@.

@The_Ed alright, so not too bad I guess?

[The_Ed]

1. RED - Cut off the 3 "barrels"
2. BLUE - Grind down the bits that stick up in the 3 "lock" LED area
3. GREEN - There are 5 screw holes
4. YELLOW - There are 2 stabilizing pins that go through holes in the PCB

[hazeluff]

1. RED - Cut off the 3 "barrels"
2. BLUE - Grind down the bits that stick up in the 3 "lock" LED area
3. GREEN - There are 5 screw holes
4. YELLOW - There are 2 stabilizing pins that go through holes in the PCB

Alright. = / So no way of doing it for the board without modding?

[The_Ed]

Only because we are adding those extra keys. If we were doing ONLY 104 it would fit perfectly WITHOUT modding.

Is it weird for me to feel wrong about looking at my board "naked"? It just doesn't seem... right...

[hazeluff]

Only because we are adding those extra keys. If we were doing ONLY 104 it would fit perfectly WITHOUT modding.

Wait really? How? Which Keys?

[The_Ed]

The extra keys underneath F1, F9, Scroll Lock, Pause/Break (possibly, it's really close), and the extra 8 above the numpad would have to go for us to put this into a cherry case WITHOUT modding it.

[hazeluff]

The extra keys underneath F1, F9, Scroll Lock, Pause/Break (possibly, it's really close), and the extra 8 above the numpad would have to go for us to put this into a cherry case WITHOUT modding it.

You are saying that those poles stick up into that area between the function  row and the number row. And we need to put holes into the PCB or Mod the case. But maybe, we can fit those holes in the PCB? ( I don't know, we are really pushing this towards ease of putting it in the cherry case).

[The_Ed]

More pics! The PCB holes for PCB mounted MX, PCB mounted G99 stabilizers, and 7 mounting holes shouldn't interfere with the routing. I like the extra switches, they allow my media keys/knobs. If people can't spend 10 minutes to mod their case for a custom keyboard then they shouldn't be building one in the first place. The first picture shows the relative sizes of the switch, stabilizer, and screw holes.

[mtl]

They don't even make sets of their own for sale separately, people have asked. So chances of anyone asking them to make a custom set are slim to none

They used to sell these blank keycap kits. Maybe they can be convinced to do it again, though you'd still need a process to paint the legends.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39960[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39959[/ATTACH]