GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard

[0100010]

Is the controller board layout finalized?

The most recent image in the thread looks like it has a a couple row traces crossed, and there are traces going to the PA0-7 pins; wasn't sure if that was the final plan or not.

EDIT : Also - are the Ground and VCC pins in the correct positions?

Oh, heck no. You will have to be patient my friend. I am waiting for feedback on the GH36 layout and the Unicomp case.

But we SHALL have our battleship! Yes we shall.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Cool.  No rush.  Just wanted to be sure to point out what I saw.

[Hypersphere]

It is interesting to see the excitement over this project. Although I do not want to undertake building a 122 keyboard from the ground up myself, this GH project has encouraged me to proceed with my restoration of IBM M122 and F122 boards. It is noteworthy that Unicomp sells a 122 model of its own. In addition, I have noticed several 122 keyboards on eBay that are not IBM. In fact, I just bought an NMB 122 with black space invader (clicky angry bear) switches.

[Niomosy]

More and useful keys?  I like it.

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

/runs

[samwisekoi]

More and useful keys?  I like it.

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

/runs

Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[AKmalamute]

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

Not quite enough keys -- unless you bought two pair of GH36es, then arranged them either all in a row, or maybe a quad array of 2x2 boards.

At twelve-square of keys, it would finally be a battleship keyboard! Make a litster - style case of 304 stainless, and you'd have the keyboard to fight the apocalypse with.

That might be more keyboard than I actually need.

[dorkvader]

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

Not quite enough keys -- unless you bought two pair of GH36es, then arranged them either all in a row, or maybe a quad array of 2x2 boards.

At twelve-square of keys, it would finally be a battleship keyboard! Make a litster - style case of 304 stainless, and you'd have the keyboard to fight the apocalypse with.

That might be more keyboard than I actually need.

It'd be like kbdfr's keyboard

[berserkfan]

It'd be like kbdfr's keyboard

Show Image

This keyboard takes up way too much desktop space.

There are 4 programmable layers on the keyboard in the middle. As the user of a similar keyboard I simply can't find enough use for all the layers.

[0100010]

Costar only stab plate layout - WIP:

[IvanIvanovich]

Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.

[Melvang]

Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.

Show Image

Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

[Hak Foo]

I hate to be a beggar, but I might suggest we do the plate with the "hybrid" mounting like Matias is using in his 60% -- see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1447591#msg1447591

Specifically

This makes it easy for both MX and ALPS fans.  Costar-style plate-mount stabs work well either way-- you can use them with minor modifications to support keys with ALPS style stabilizer inserts.  It also looks like it would provide that "side access to allow popping the top on MX switches" while actually being a simpler cut than the usual "four tiny notches" thing.  However, whether it would work for that, I will leave to someone who actually understands the mechanics of opening MX switches on plate-mount boards.

[Melvang]

I hate to be a beggar, but I might suggest we do the plate with the "hybrid" mounting like Matias is using in his 60% -- see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1447591#msg1447591

Specifically

Show Image

This makes it easy for both MX and ALPS fans.  Costar-style plate-mount stabs work well either way-- you can use them with minor modifications to support keys with ALPS style stabilizer inserts.  It also looks like it would provide that "side access to allow popping the top on MX switches" while actually being a simpler cut than the usual "four tiny notches" thing.  However, whether it would work for that, I will leave to someone who actually understands the mechanics of opening MX switches on plate-mount boards.

Even if it wouldn't work it wouldn't take much time with a file on each hole to make it work.

[Hak Foo]

I guess my question is "if it would work, why is this not becoming the dominant plate design?"  My guesses are either "everyone just jumped on the four notches bandwagon after the first guy did it" or possibly "it isn't quite as stable for Cherry-only usage" or "Most people didn't bother because the PCB was going to limit you to MX switches anyway".

[berserkfan]

Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.

Show Image

I strongly support Ivan's proposal and hope it will be taken up. If we want a battleship, I believe we should have a modern one. But I suspect programming the LCD screen won't be easy and it will add greatly to costs...

[IvanIvanovich]

There is software that already exists for running various info screen type of things. Would just need to use hardware that are compatible with software that already exists.

[SL89]

As much as i'd looooove a mini screen or something like that, i think we are deviating from the goal. This is a kind of Retro / Revival sort of project, at least in my eyes. While another screen or some such stuff would be undeniably cool, i think its just a bit much. Maybe the GH-122.2 can have a screen or some such thing, but for now I envision Samwisekoi's original proposal to be a much simpler affair.

[Hak Foo]

Agreed.  Personally, I think stuff like "a secondary display" is something that can be built into the case, but as a seperate unit (maybe solder it all together with an in-case hub, or something).... keeps the main product simple and the cost for people who only want the basic board low.

It sort of reminds me of the days in the case-mod scene, maybe 2004-6 or so, when small parallel-port driven LCDs (or VFD displays if you were super-lucky) were the cool toy to have.  The problem is that the software always sucked, the LCD modules themselves were often of mediocre quality and poor legibility, and there was never a good place to mount them.

[jacobolus]

I guess my question is "if it would work, why is this not becoming the dominant plate design?"  My guesses are either "everyone just jumped on the four notches bandwagon after the first guy did it" or possibly "it isn't quite as stable for Cherry-only usage" or "Most people didn't bother because the PCB was going to limit you to MX switches anyway".

How about: it’s never actually been produced, so we still have no idea how well it works. I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be okay but not quite as nice as a dedicated MX or Alps plate. MX + Alps should definitely become the standard for PCBs though.

(Personally, I also think the MX plates with little extra cutout notches for switch top replacement are a bit of a gimmick, and probably don’t perform quite as well as a simple square, but I’ve never compared those two side by side.)

[user 18]

There was a thread where people actually prototyped that plate design. It wasn't as stable as the four notches design, iirc.

[Hak Foo]

Well, that's your fault for using the wrong type of switches.

[dorkvader]

Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.

Show Image

Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

Dunno if the T3.1 (the ARM one) has enough pins for a screen AND a 122-key matrix. The T++2.0 probably does. Depending on your LCD screen though.

And even a normal teensy can run a LCD screen. Check it out:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/board5/lcd_128x64.html

[Melvang]

Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.

Show Image

Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

Dunno if the T3.1 (the ARM one) has enough pins for a screen AND a 122-key matrix. The T++2.0 probably does. Depending on your LCD screen though.

And even a normal teensy can run a LCD screen. Check it out:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/board5/lcd_128x64.html

Might need to get fancy with the traces but 121 key can be done with 22 pins.  Granted you need to get fancy with traces as thats with 11x11 matrix.  Though standard layout for traces would need a bit more pins.  How much more difficult would it be to use a ++ version over a standard 2.0?

[dorkvader]

Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.

Show Image

Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

Dunno if the T3.1 (the ARM one) has enough pins for a screen AND a 122-key matrix. The T++2.0 probably does. Depending on your LCD screen though.

And even a normal teensy can run a LCD screen. Check it out:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/board5/lcd_128x64.html

Might need to get fancy with the traces but 121 key can be done with 22 pins.  Granted you need to get fancy with traces as thats with 11x11 matrix.  Though standard layout for traces would need a bit more pins.  How much more difficult would it be to use a ++ version over a standard 2.0?

well, soarer's code runs on the ++ some of the other ones might have a ++ version as well. I think the real hard part is integrating the display driver library with the KB code and also figuring out some client side app to export that data to your teensy.

You can use io expanders like bpiphany's costar replacement controlelrs or the ergodox to get more KB matrix pins available.

[samwisekoi]

Wow; I've been off working on the GH36 (now in the Real World) and missed a bunch of this.

So, the Teensy++ has ever so many pins.  It also has way more RAM than the Teensy.  Personally I think one of the PJRC screens could work aesthetically in the upper right-hand corner as a faux triple LED string.  However, the best use of such a thing would be if the keyboard could be reprogrammed without an attached PC.  Particularly the banks of what are essentially macro keys.

Anyhow, the pinouts for the PJRC screen are trivial, so from a hardware perspective I can leave them available, or even run them to a string of pads.

If the TechKeys business card can have a display and on-board programmability, then why shouldn't the GH122 battleship keyboard at least support it?

(Physically, anyhow.  Firmware remains Not My Thing.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  You know what needs on-board programmability?  The GH36...

[berserkfan]

Oh my God it gets better and better!

Even if Ron is not up to doing the LCD firmware, Somebody here will. And that’s the awesome power of geekhackery. So we will be able to get a stand alone programmable battleship.

I am just salivating!

[0100010]

What kind of display? (as there are a lot of options)

Most appropriate would probably be nixie or VFD - but too expensive and power hungry.

More appropriate would be LCD or LED.

[dorkvader]

What kind of display? (as there are a lot of options)

Most appropriate would probably be nixie or VFD - but too expensive and power hungry.

More appropriate would be LCD or LED.

nixie is out of the question for most people, but a vfd could work there are lots of vfds that are drop0in replacements for some LCDs. Current consumption would be a bit of an issue though

see here: http://www.amb.org/forum/vfd-display-experiment-t900.html

led displays like the one that that vfd is for seem to only use 20-30 mA but it will depend heavily on backlight brightness.
http://www.amb.org/audio/lcduino1/

[Hak Foo]

VFDs tend to be difficult to source and pricy... what's available tends to be surplus parts which are frequently non-standard or poorly documented.  Many of them are quite large.

For example -- http://www.bgmicro.com/ncrfutaba4x20vacuumfluorescentdisplay.aspx -- thirty bucks, when a comparable 4x20 LCD would likely be under ten.

[samwisekoi]

What about this one?

https://www.pjrc.com/store/display_ili9341.html

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[IvanIvanovich]

Or, we could go nuts and just do TFTs )

[berserkfan]

Or, we could go nuts and just do TFTs )

Show Image

This is indeed overkill. Whoever does this will gain notoriety in his workplace as an incorrigible geek - and possibly get an endless number of tech assist requests!

[jacobolus]

Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

[jdcarpe]

Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

Raspberry Pi mounted inside the case and a LCD display and you have a standalone system.

[Melvang]

Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

Raspberry Pi mounted inside the case and a LCD display and you have a standalone system.

Ok, now this is getting very close to a non flip screen laptop.

[kalrand]

Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

Raspberry Pi mounted inside the case and a LCD display and you have a standalone system.

Ok, now this is getting very close to a non flip screen laptop.

Actually, if we were to add a small basin and some plumbing attachments, I think we could really get something going here.

[AKmalamute]

I think you may have gone full derp.

  (hey, look, a keyboard inspired derp-img!)

in fact, I'm quite sure of it...

Let's ... detach the kitchen sink. And the touchscreen ... and the iPhone. And as much as I loved my Vic-20, let's assume this keyboard will need a computer to plug into.

(although ... card socket? There was a submarine game of some sort for the VIC-20 that I miss playing. I think. Not sure, actually. That was a lot of years ago.)

[Hak Foo]

You could potentially design a case which let you slot in, say, a thin-ITX mainboard, a PicoPSU if necessary, and a 2.5" hard disc underneath the PCB... then just run an internal connector to a USB header on the motherboard... then you've got an all-in-one build, maybe set up a switchbox which lets you either use it as a standalone PC, or just connect the keyboard to an external PC.

[SL89]

You could potentially design a case which let you slot in, say, a thin-ITX mainboard, a PicoPSU if necessary, and a 2.5" hard disc underneath the PCB... then just run an internal connector to a USB header on the motherboard... then you've got an all-in-one build, maybe set up a switchbox which lets you either use it as a standalone PC, or just connect the keyboard to an external PC.

Sounds a bit like the C64x Commodore replica.

[Hak Foo]

Yeah, except that had all sorts of stupid compromises and a ridiculous price tag to appeal to the nostalgic "it looks like a C64" crowd.  This could well be built for a specific (likely low-intensity usage) task, like being a dedicated word-processor, and it would likely be less than $150 addition to the bare keyboard project, especially if you've already got bits to reuse.

[berserkfan]

This is gonna be a super keyboard.

[dorkvader]

Yeah, except that had all sorts of stupid compromises and a ridiculous price tag to appeal to the nostalgic "it looks like a C64" crowd.  This could well be built for a specific (likely low-intensity usage) task, like being a dedicated word-processor, and it would likely be less than $150 addition to the bare keyboard project, especially if you've already got bits to reuse.

I think it's best used as a thin client. get one of those small standalone boards and a small display, HDMI out (though DP is waaaay better how come nobody uses it?) etc.

[jacobolus]

A bit off topic, but here’s a stupidly large ergo board layout:


Or with colors and not quite so silly big:

[samwisekoi]

Seriously, what about this one from PJRC?  It was the one I was planning on including pin-outs for, so please let me know if it is or is not useable.

Also, only $8.00 and in stock now.


Color 320x240 TFT Display, ILI9341 Controller Chip

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What about this one?

https://www.pjrc.com/store/display_ili9341.html

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

Also, thinking about the useful and not-so-useful expansion proposals, I have come up with some simple changes that don't impact the size of the master PCB.

I added:

 - Four keys in the upper left, with an optional 2x position.
 - Four keys in the Fn block, to enable expansion, movement, or re-insertion of gaps between blocks of eight.
 - Six keys above the arrow cluster to enable some or all of the PRINT/PAUSE section to be added.

Let me know your thoughts!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[IvanIvanovich]

  I approve on the screen. Not sure about the extra keys as I think that makes it instantly incompatible with anything that may be existing to use for case solutions.
I was actually thinking about doing something like a really basic integrated system deal with a Galileo or similar.

[0100010]

I think that screen would work - just need to count how many pins it needs.

As far as extra key positions - I always assumed we would need a custom plate / case for this beast anyway.  I'm all for all of the extra keys you have added.

[samwisekoi]

I approve on the screen. Not sure about the extra keys as I think that makes it instantly incompatible with anything that may be existing to use for case solutions.
I was actually thinking about doing something like a really basic integrated system deal with a Galileo or similar.

Thanks.

I had the board space for the extra positions, but I'll include cut lines, and of course the actual switches can be left out.

Me, I am going to try to fit it into a Unicomp PC-122 case, so I will make sure it is compatible with that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[berserkfan]

I approve on the screen. Not sure about the extra keys as I think that makes it instantly incompatible with anything that may be existing to use for case solutions.
I was actually thinking about doing something like a really basic integrated system deal with a Galileo or similar.

Thanks.

I had the board space for the extra positions, but I'll include cut lines, and of course the actual switches can be left out.

Me, I am going to try to fit it into a Unicomp PC-122 case, so I will make sure it is compatible with that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I approve of everything!

This is going to be such an awesome thing!

One suggestion: lets rope in somebody who knows how to program a specialized Geekhack welcome screen on that 320x480. When you power up the keyboard, you should see something like
Geekhack presents
The Gh-122 (actually 132 or whatever after the latest expansion)
Created by Samwisekoi
other credits found at x

Welcome Back [insert your name]
What are we going to do today?
Please remember your latest changes [key x mapped to y]
The full log can be found at z

Of course I am just fantasizing but hey who knows. Maybe in 10 years teensy 10.0+++ will be powerful enough to support SIRI and every darn thing in the world. Your keyboard will be a real control panel then.

[AKmalamute]

I only have two of my three WYSE-150's left, and I kinda miss it. Having a modern dumb terminal could be really cool, as it means I could lay out my 100-foot serial cable from the server to the kitchen, and issue commands to play music while I cook.

Yes, I bought a 100' RS232 cable from BlackBox just so I could do that with a WYSE-150. Never got much past proof-of-concept where the terminal was about ten feet from the server, but still.

I suppose the third add-on, then, would be bluetooth. Have it register as a serial device, and you'd have a wireless dumb terminal with a color screen.

I'd buy it.

[SpecTP]

So here I am on a Wednesday night watching the Nuclear Green group buy and waiting for the prototype GH-36 matrix keypad PCBs to arrive.  And what do I see on geekhack?  Another Great Find post for an F-122 that I won't ever own.

(Attachment Link)
Another F-122 I won't ever own.

And there I am with my PCB design software open in a VM in front of me, and I started to wonder what it would cost to make a small quantity of MX (or Alps) 122-key keyboard PCBs.  So I cobbled one together using the layout of the F-122 above, adjusted to modern keycap spacing.  Here is what I got:

(Attachment Link)
GH-122 Exercise by samwisekoi 2014

The answer to what would it cost?  Just $60 each for a batch of 10 PCBs.

Of course there are issues.  Setting aside the case question for the moment, what controller could support a 24x7 matrix?  The PCB would clearly have to bend for the upper bank of 24 function keys.  Can the Easy AVR software support a controller big enough to drive this thing?

And, of course, are there any other people in this fine community crazy enough to try to build such a beast?

Anyone?

Let me know.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I've got a couple of these keyboards on the shelf.. not sure what the appeal is.   I've used them for years on AS400 terminals.