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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: bear95 on Thu, 22 November 2012, 18:34:32
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So... I've noticed that when I flex my right arm and then extend, it makes this popping sound and I can feel something move in my elbow. This became painful for me whenever I did pushups and when I looked online, people mostly just adjusted their position which did help for me.
But one day checking in the mirror, I found that the arm that hurts rotates a lot more than my other arm. Like if i put my hands up in front of my face, and twist my arms outwards, my left arm can go about 30degrees but my right arm goes 45 which is kind of creepy. My brother suggested it might be because of bad right arm position while gaming. There's no swelling of any kind. Any ideas?
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u have been sitting in a chair with a HARD armrest.
Throw the armrest away or die.
u have prob been typing on an EVIL membrane keyboard. That does it to
Throw all membrane keyboards in the fire before u end up like me. :(
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Sounds like a repetitive strain injury. You really should be more careful... I hear you can go blind too. :p
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Armrests... never thought of that. Yes I do have hard armrests, and I will find something better. Seems like you experienced this... was there any steps you took to "recover"?
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Since u put the word "recover" in quotation marks then I will answer "Yes".
Since nobody who met me would ever use the word "recovered" to describe me.
Its real easy to mess up your elbow by using a computer, frantically moving a mouse around with a hard armrest. Your Ulnar Nerve (your funny bone nerve) is a major nerve and it sits really close to the surface. Its a recipe for disaster. But you can also screw up your elbow from heavy lifting, playing tennis, driving a bus, being an auto-mechanic. There are always multiple ways to injure yourself.
I had to completely change my life. If I only I would have known BEFORE HAND (pun unintended) then I could have done all the easy stuff BEFORE my life was ruined and then kept on having a life.
You can read some of the things I have had to change in the other thread in this area where the guy asked about wrist braces.
I am not advocating you to start wearing braces at work because I don't know enuff about ur symptoms yet. But I can advocate you wear LOOSE wrist braces in your sleep for sure. Because many ppl damage themselves when they are asleep and don't even know it. Its very sad :(
Wearing wrist braces at work can be really good for the simple reason that they will annoy u into keeping your wrists straight. Ppl do not have enuff willpower to do what they need to do on their own. So loose wristbraces help. I have more willpower than anybody and for the love of God I just can't keep my wrists straight without something there to permanently remind me.
Remember, there is no law that says elbow pain was caused by your elbow. If you irritate your ulnar nerve in your wrist then u will sometimes feel it in your elbow. I know it sounds weird. But believe me, it happens all the time.
Its almost as if the guy who invented the human body did it a hundred thousand years ago before they had modern computers to help out :p
I wrote about other things besides braces in that other thread.
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Stop jacking off.
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But one day checking in the mirror, I found that the arm that hurts rotates a lot more than my other arm. Like if i put my hands up in front of my face, and twist my arms outwards, my left arm can go about 30degrees but my right arm goes 45 which is kind of creepy. My brother suggested it might be because of bad right arm position while gaming. There's no swelling of any kind. Any ideas?
Just to be clear, I never had increased range of motion with pain and I never met any patient that had that symptom along with "normal pain".
Normally a painful body part has less Range Of Motion than a normal body part.
In order to get increased ROM you either need to have been born that way (for instance with Marfan Syndrome).
Or you need to have broken a tendon or ligament or something... but then you should be screaming in pain and definitely not typing msgs on GeekHack.
My advice to you is just good general advice, which if you refuse to follow will ultimately result in catastrophic injury at some point in time, perhaps yesterday or years or decades in the future depending on your usage habits and age and DNA and luck and other factors.
All I can say is be glad that your body is giving you warning signs ahead of time so that you have time to make ergonomic adjustments before you go into catastrophic failure.
btw I never had swelling either. Until I went past the point of no return. :(
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Thanks for the advice!
Doing fighting sports such as taekwondo might help you keep your wrists straight... idk, but my wrists are always straight, I never knew there was such a problem.
A thing about my arm is when I extend them outwards, the bone on the inside of the arm is clearly sticking out a lot more than the other side. I'm under the impression that my arm may not be in-place, which is kind of weird. I'm planning to see a doctor.
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Maybe you dislocated something and you are a superhero who is 99% invulnerable to pain?
And the 1% is what you are feeling?
When I used to use my mouse my wrist was sort of on the table with my wrist bent backwards so my fingers could get up and over the mouse to the buttons. And it was sort of large mouse. Not a small one. I was doing it very antiergonomical.
I can't remember how I held my wrists when I typed back then.... But I know things were much better when I lowered the keyboard off of my high desk down into my lap. It really helped with the elbow and wrist and finger pain.
Maybe you broke your arm? I don't see how it is possible. But I have read about ppl breaking their arm and not knowing it until much much later. They were like "I just thought it was sore from crashing my bike". :eek:
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I actually had physio to sort this out once over
the nice lady who used ultrasound on my elbow to break up the scar tissue advised getting a support like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physio-Tennis-Epicondylitis-Support-Delivery-/dp/B00687TDU2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1353952583&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physio-Tennis-Epicondylitis-Support-Delivery-/dp/B00687TDU2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1353952583&sr=8-2)
It looks odd, but they are fairly cheep so its worth a go to see if it helps
depending on how bad the strain on my arm currently is....it can be quite effective
unfortunally the best way to solve it is just rest
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Turns out the problem is my ulnar nerve popping in and out. Confirmed by touching the inside of the elbow cause I can feel it moving in and out completely over the bone. Fix is rest. Which is kind of stupid. I have a left ankle recovering from a sprain and a messed up knee. I did a lot of taekwondo so I had to stop going to that regularly. And so I started doing upper body work at the gym and now I can't do that either. WTF.
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Stop jacking off.
best answer of the thread
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Stop jacking off.
best answer of the thread
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Probably won't believe me but after breaking up with a girl, I kind of lost interest and haven't jacked off in quite a while... and I've found sleep more satisfying.
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Stop jacking off.
best answer of the thread
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Probably won't believe me but after breaking up with a girl, I kind of lost interest and haven't jacked off in quite a while... and I've found sleep more satisfying.
No joke that is something someone depressed would say. Might want to contact a therapist. And your elbow could be due to you not feeling well either.
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Stop jacking off.
best answer of the thread
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Probably won't believe me but after breaking up with a girl, I kind of lost interest and haven't jacked off in quite a while... and I've found sleep more satisfying.
No joke that is something someone depressed would say. Might want to contact a therapist. And your elbow could be due to you not feeling well either.
Nah, I think its also just stress.
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Stress is reflective also. You know your body best. I won't make the calls for you but GL with it all.
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armrests messed me up, i took them off my ergo chair, cars don't have armrests and ppl drive hours a day.
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I did a lot of taekwondo so I had to stop going to that regularly.
Does Taekwondo involve impacts to any part of the human body?
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I did a lot of taekwondo so I had to stop going to that regularly.
Does Taekwondo involve impacts to any part of the human body?
Yes to the knees. Not the ankles though. Reason I injured my ankle was just me being careless.
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in the past i've had my ulnar nerve become inflamed because my elbow was rubbing on the desk as i type
have you tried wedging something soft under your elbow?
last time i used a couple of cloth mouse pads with 5+mm foam backs
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I have have this exact issue. Arm rests were too hard and yes, driving the car with hard arm rests in it was the other problem.
I used gel wrist pads on each chair arm for rests and adjusted my steering wheel position and the problem went away. I am pretty sure that not using arm rests will lead to shoulder and upper back muscle fatigue. I have played piano and keyboards for over 30 years and find the thing that ends playing sessions is shoulder/back muscles cramping up. (can't use arm rests when playing, you need to move around too much)
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Protip; sit with your feet flat on the ground to prevent yourself twisting your spine from prolonges computer use
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I would also advocate raising the sensitivity on your mouse and go wireless so you aren't dragging the cord, even if you only do this for general computing. Cords mean means more effort, this is even worse if you have a sleeved or stiff cable.
On my system, about 1 inch of movement can send my mouse across dual 1920x1080 screens. I tend to finger my mouse, so very little of that movement comes from wrist and arm movement. It's only when transitioning screens that they really get used.
Despite what many claim regarding gaming accuracy, I find it to be false. I use a Logitech G700 wireless with 500hz poling and 5k dpi. Yes, the 500hz poling does drain the battery a bit faster, I use a 2700mah battery to combat this. As for sensitivity, I'm known for making those long range, short notice kill shots and almost always top the ranks for accuracy. You just have to adapt to it.
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Most if not all competitive gamers use — guess what? — wired mice. One word: bungee. Or just mousing technique.
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Most if not all competitive gamers use — guess what? — wired mice. One word: bungee. Or just mousing technique.
The reason is that many still think wireless has a bunch of lag.
Older ones certainly did, the newer generation, if you can detect it, you probably haven't got it setup right. If you notice most of the gaming mice companies have started pushing wireless now.
Regardless, you could still use wireless when not gaming.
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I use wired mice for the simple fact that they are lighter. The wireless mice I tried weighed quite alot more than the wired ones. So much that it hurt my tendonitis 10x more to use the wireless mice.
I was using wireless mice in the movie room because being wireless is very convenient and I hardly ever move the mouse anyway. But each one develops brain damage after a year or so.. probably from getting knocked on the floor in the dark by ppl reaching to pause the movie or whatever.
In my experience wired mice are much more durable and can be dropped many MANY times and still work perfectly.
All my wired mice are cheapo $8.00 light wired mice. Altho a couple were given to me for xmas from walmart... they seem the exact same thing as the $6.00 to $8.00 mice but they cost $20.00 to $28.00. I don't think walmart is a good place to buy mice. NewEgg 4ever :)
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i took off my arm rests, adjust accordingly.
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My Corsair M60 has 3 weights, and I'm using them all. Should I take them out to make it lighter and therefore better for my wrist?
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My Corsair M60 has 3 weights, and I'm using them all. Should I take them out to make it lighter and therefore better for my wrist?
Yes definitely you should take off the weights. Especially if you game a lot. Or just work really hard and intensely on your computer, like doing gfx.
All the ergonomic actions you take today will add up to years of extra hardcore hand use in the future. I know so many artists and gamers and different ppl who used their hands real intensely for years who messed up their hands and developed permanent hand problems. Its really sad.
I used to be a hardcore gamer. I was making millions of mouse movements a year. Extra weight adds up to extra wear and tear on your tendons and nerves.
Why would a mouse need extra weight added? Does it have an antigrav unit inside that makes the mouse float up in the air? :p
If you keep picking up the mouse to move it, the problem might simply be that it is not high enough resolution for you. In the old days of 300 dpi mice I used to pick my mouse up to move it sometimes... I was always sliding that thing alllll over the place. But then I got a 1000 dpi mouse for my pc that was much more like using an Amiga mouse. You just barely move the mouse and it zips across the screen... aaaaah so awesome. No more waving the mouse across 3 feet of deskspace.
I still pick my mouse up a little bit (very tiny amount) here and there.. Just left over muscle memory from years ago I guess. Thankfully picking up a light cheap $8.00 mouse is way easier than a weighty mouse.
And remember try to get yourself into a situation where your wrists are straight or mostly straight while you use your mouse. It makes tremendous difference! I know its really hard to break old habits and its no fun... but if you wait till the really bad pain starts then the pain will FORCE you to keep your wrists straight. An ounce of prevention is worth 214 metric tons of cure.
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Wow. I took them out. It feels a LOT different, but I can definitely see how it would help your wrist. Thanks, TotalChaos, for making me think again about my posture and ergonomics. The next step is to remove the arms off my chair, if possible, or get another chair.
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My Corsair M60 has 3 weights, and I'm using them all. Should I take them out to make it lighter and therefore better for my wrist?
Use whatever feels right to you. I preferred huge&heavy palm-grip mid-sensitivity mice few years ago, and couldn't use anything but that. Interestingly enough, I've converted to some sort of almost fingertip grip, and high-sesitivity since then, but I sometimes go back to my former style of mousing.
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Make sure ur mouse slides around easily too. That makes a difference too.
Sometimes those little glider thingies under the mouse get dirty or even break off. If you keep them clean then your mouse can glide around effortlessly and without stressing your tendons.
And if your mouse button ever gets messed up like mine did, where you hafta kinda hit it extra hard or just the right angle, just get a new mouse. Its tons of stress on your tendons to be fiddling with pressing the mouse button some super specific way over and over and over again thru a million mouseclicks.
And about the armrests: If u r healthy Don't be afraid to kick back and relax in a chair with soft armrests and REST. Like watch a movie or whatever. Armrests are only evil when you are working with your arms or hands.
My nerves and tendons got so hypersensitive from my antiergonomic abuse that I literally abandoned all my furniture. It all had armrests. I can't touch armrests any more. My new couch has no armrests and my chairs mostly do not have armrests. I have 1 chair that does have armrests but that is the "guest chair". I never ever ever ever sit in that thing. It was a gift from someone trying to help me. It cost $700.00 and isn't very old and is in perfect shape so I just keep it for guests at the dinner table.
My $200.00 computer chair came with armrests that are not mechanically required. That is why I bought this specific chair. When we assembled it we just left off the armrests. Ahhhhhhhhh. Sooooo much better. If I was still sitting in the $700.00 chair with armrests I would never be able to bang out a msg this long.
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I also started doing back workouts to increase lower and upper back muscle and I feel that has made a significant difference in my posture.
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Sometimes those little glider thingies under the mouse get dirty or even break off. If you keep them clean then your mouse can glide around effortlessly and without stressing your tendons.
Curiously one (or the little pads underneath) fell of my work mouse and I couldn't stick it back on, so I pull the others off too. Since then the mouse has moved much more easily across the desk surface, and also seems to accumulate less gunk underneath.
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Sometimes those little glider thingies under the mouse get dirty or even break off. If you keep them clean then your mouse can glide around effortlessly and without stressing your tendons.
Curiously one (or the little pads underneath) fell of my work mouse and I couldn't stick it back on, so I pull the others off too. Since then the mouse has moved much more easily across the desk surface, and also seems to accumulate less gunk underneath.
hehe I forgot about that. The same thing happened to me once! I took off the sliders and it slid better. :)
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Oh, and the only other thing I could think of was whether it would be as accurate as the mouse was now something like 0.5mm closer to the desk surface, but it didn't seem to affect accuracy at all.