Author Topic: Ergonomic downside of touchpad  (Read 22656 times)

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Offline urlwolf

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Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« on: Fri, 01 February 2013, 06:39:38 »
Touchpads have one great advantage: no clicks.
I'm using the bamboo pen and touch, gicantic surface, very accurate, and when you want extra precision you can use the pen. It pwns even for things it's not intended for, such as browsing.

But there are downsides. Apart from most people here not liking it, Ergonomics research has found that the constant tension to keep all fingers but one away from the touchpad is not good long-term. I can see why.

Something else I've noticed is that putting it in front of you and using the index finger to touch stresses the index finger. It's always stretched and all the other fingers are compressed. Not a good position. I also wonder if the tiny movements off-axis that result from dragging the finger in different directions are bad for the joints. The finger is not doing the natural movement (press something against the palm).

What do you think?
keyboards: Cherry G80-3494- cherry reds | filco majestytouch - cherry browns | kinesis contour - cherry browns | cherry G80 - 1800 cherry blacks.
mice: filco touchpad | logitech G9x | wowpen joy | kensington orbit trackball | zalman fpsgun | intellimouse v1 | logitech rx1500

Offline Gerk

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 01 February 2013, 07:16:52 »
I don't think touchpads are very ergonomic at all in my experience.  At first I thought it would be great because of the fact that my whole arm wasn't moving around to move my cursor, but over time it ended up causing me more problems than it solved.  In my case I think the killer was that I was doing a lot of scrolling with the touchpad (with my index and second finger) and that particular action repeated over and over again gave me some serious ulna nerve inflammation.  Results may be different for different people, but in general I think having your arm in a prone position on ANY pointing device, and more specifically one that doesn't ever move or give you any kind of range-of-motion is a bad thing.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 01 February 2013, 14:03:33 »
Touchpads have one great advantage: no clicks.
Clicks = bad.

No clicks = good.

But if you replace the clicking with something even worse then it doesn't work out. :)



Quote
I'm using the bamboo pen and touch, gicantic surface, very accurate, and when you want extra precision you can use the pen. It pwns even for things it's not intended for, such as browsing.

But there are downsides. Apart from most people here not liking it, Ergonomics research has found that the constant tension to keep all fingers but one away from the touchpad is not good long-term. I can see why.
I have never used the device you are using but I used a touchpad thingy on a laptop for a couple of minutes and it burnt my fingers quite badly so I never used one again.

With my horrible hand pain condition anything that would cause a regular person damage from doing for a whole year continuously, causes me intense pain in 5 minutes or less.

Like the "keeping your fingers under tension" thing you are talking about.

I cannot EVER keep my fingers under tension ever anymore.  If I do so for any reason then my pain escalates in 5 mins or less and I am destroyed for the rest of the day.  So I always always always keep relaxing my fingers.  Use them when needed, then relax.

Back when I was healthy I would code all day or game all day and keep tension on my mouse fingers and hand continuously all day long.  If I was playing a game and the game lasted 8 hours then that was 8 continuous hours of tension on my tendons in both hands but especially in my mouse hand and arm.  Totally crazy.  I now realize that doing that over and over again is horrifically unhealthy.

One should avoid keeping the tendons and muscles under continuous long-term repeated sessions of tension.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline urlwolf

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 02 February 2013, 10:19:17 »
So what is a good device that saves on clicks, but doesn't destroy your hand in any other way? maybe using a keyboard key as click would be a good solution...
keyboards: Cherry G80-3494- cherry reds | filco majestytouch - cherry browns | kinesis contour - cherry browns | cherry G80 - 1800 cherry blacks.
mice: filco touchpad | logitech G9x | wowpen joy | kensington orbit trackball | zalman fpsgun | intellimouse v1 | logitech rx1500

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 02 February 2013, 10:32:42 »
Check accessibility settings in your desktop environment. I use MATE & OnBoard on my Tablet PC, and it's possible to emulate click like this: when the cursor stays in one place for given amount of time, it's a "left click".

Offline davkol

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 02 February 2013, 13:23:19 »
BTW has anyone used those "touch mice", which I believe have capacitive instead of mechanical buttons?

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 02 February 2013, 15:07:41 »
I haven't found touchpads to be that ergonomic either.  I taped an Apple Touchpad to the middle of my Kinesis Advantage, but I find my fingers start to hurt from all the scrolling and precise finger movements with my hand in a slightly awkward position. I don't think I can put my hand and wrist in a comfortable position with the touchpad because  our hands are not best suited to move around on flat surfaces all the time.  I thought it would be a great setup, but I'm considering getting rid the touchpad altogether.

 I'm considering getting a trackball because I discovered that I like them better than I thought.  I can switch hands, use different fingers to move the ball if some start to hurt.  The only downside is I have to put it to the side of my keyboard.

The best mouse setup I've ever used is the Maltron integrated trackball because I can easily use it with both hands, and my hand is positioned so I can move the trackball with my thumb and click the buttons with my fingers, and the middle number pad is in a position so that I can use it easily to navigate through documents.  A scroll wheel would be the only thing that I miss on the Maltron trackball setup.  Makes me think I would really like a Trackpoint.

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Offline urlwolf

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 02 February 2013, 18:23:49 »
I have a maltron and just attached a kensingon orbit in the middle. the scroll on this thing is perfect. buttons left a lot to be desired, but I found a hack on an amazon review that makes them decent: put a piece of metal between the plastic button and the (horrible) switch. Now let's see how much it last...
keyboards: Cherry G80-3494- cherry reds | filco majestytouch - cherry browns | kinesis contour - cherry browns | cherry G80 - 1800 cherry blacks.
mice: filco touchpad | logitech G9x | wowpen joy | kensington orbit trackball | zalman fpsgun | intellimouse v1 | logitech rx1500

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 08:51:58 »
I have a maltron and just attached a kensingon orbit in the middle. the scroll on this thing is perfect. buttons left a lot to be desired, but I found a hack on an amazon review that makes them decent: put a piece of metal between the plastic button and the (horrible) switch. Now let's see how much it last...

Any chance you could provide a picture of this setup?  Sounds interesting.
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Offline urlwolf

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 09:24:05 »
Let's see if this works: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0ByviFPWwEWa2lxVHFyX2c3anc/edit?usp=sharing

I cut ~the bottom 1/5 to make it not stick so much. The white stuff is 'blue tak', which I use to compensate for the added height that the tiny metal pieces on the switches add.
keyboards: Cherry G80-3494- cherry reds | filco majestytouch - cherry browns | kinesis contour - cherry browns | cherry G80 - 1800 cherry blacks.
mice: filco touchpad | logitech G9x | wowpen joy | kensington orbit trackball | zalman fpsgun | intellimouse v1 | logitech rx1500

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 03 February 2013, 11:44:43 »
Let's see if this works: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0ByviFPWwEWa2lxVHFyX2c3anc/edit?usp=sharing

I cut ~the bottom 1/5 to make it not stick so much. The white stuff is 'blue tak', which I use to compensate for the added height that the tiny metal pieces on the switches add.

Thanks that's an innovative idea.
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Offline Lanx

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 05 February 2013, 02:11:31 »
i couldn't use my bamboo to navigate, too much scrolling, felt like it was 20dpi.

Offline Tracer

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 09:36:41 »
BTW has anyone used those "touch mice", which I believe have capacitive instead of mechanical buttons?

I have the Microsoft Touch Mouse here. I don't use it. It's collecting dust. Wow is it a horribly bad ergonomic device.
Scrolling is **** (that's software not hardware). Though the entire thing is one large clicky button, the only way you can differentiate left/right click is by touching that side of the mouse, so you have to keep your index finger hovering over the right side of the mouse. Horrible RSI right there. No middle click is just fail. The touch gestures it does provide, though improved in Windows 8, are still just slightly better than useless.

Offline Tracer

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Re: Ergonomic downside of touchpad
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 11 February 2013, 11:38:00 »
I used a Logitech T650 for about 3 days before giving it up. I'm always up for trying new input methods.

Hover hand is horrible. I turned off tap to click after a few hours which allowed me to rest my fingers and only lift when needed. Left clicking works great. Right clicking was a bit odd because it wasn't the very bottom right of the touch pad but slightly up and to the left. The thing even has middle click! (three fingers). Touch gestures in Windows 8 where actually useful (unlike the Microsoft Touch mouse mentioned above). Windows 8, being touch OS did benefit from having a touch mad vs. my normal Track Ball (Logitech Trackman).

Ultimately though, I found it a slower overall and far less ergonomic experience. With my trackball, my hand is always at rest and it's my thumb doing most of the work. A trackpad uses the whole hand and in a way that I found caused strain on my upper arm. Precision was also a big one. I cannot do any Photoshop work on a touchpad unless I turn the speed way down, and then it takes forever to get anywhere on the screen. (I've spoken to many Mac users who also switch to a mouse or digitizer for precision work). Precision and acceleration work much better on a mouse/trackball than a touchpad.