[GB] Alpine Winter (Shipping Replacements)

[E3E]

Some bits about blanks:









As you can see, they seem to sit higher than both OG Alps caps (doubleshots), and the Alps DCS Modifier set by Badwrench.

I think they used the molds that have the caps sitting higher up for EVERY blank cap. I'm pretty sure that most caps in this batch sit higher as well, whereas the odd ones out are the ones that sit lower, though I could be wrong.

Badwrench's caps are definitely the lower-sitting kind, so this in itself creates a conflict among these two sets.

[sean]

Some bits about blanks:

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As you can see, they seem to sit higher than both OG Alps caps (doubleshots), and the Alps DCS Modifier set by Badwrench.

I think they used the molds that have the caps sitting higher up for EVERY blank cap. I'm pretty sure that most caps in this batch sit higher as well, whereas the odd ones out are the ones that sit lower, though I could be wrong.

Badwrench's caps are definitely the lower-sitting kind, so this in itself creates a conflict among these two sets.

I have two blanks that are lower on row 1 and 2. I think there is some truth to be said that that just about all of the blanks do appear to be sitting higher.

[E3E]

I have two blanks that are lower on row 1 and 2. I think there is some truth to be said that that just about all of the blanks do appear to be sitting higher.

I have a bunch of blanks, myself. I need to see if any turn out lower on my end, but they do indeed seem to sit high. Tested the Row 1 number row keys and they also sit higher than the DCS modifier R1 keys. Hmmm.

Well, in any case, I snapped some shots of my Infinity, the board that's been a bit of a headache, gave me mild RSI, but also partially (or heavily?)inspired the colorway for Alpine Winter:







It's a shame that I really don't use it much anymore. Needless to say, it goes well with AW though.

[braidn]

Just finished modding the wires to work with the crucifix stabs so set is complete and working on a HASU alps64. However, is it me or are all alps as "rocky" as these? Seems like there is a good amount of back and forth play in the caps/connection with the switches. Just wondering if this in my head, if it's an alps thing... or?

[deductivemonkee]

Just finished modding the wires to work with the crucifix stabs so set is complete and working on a HASU alps64. However, is it me or are all alps as "rocky" as these? Seems like there is a good amount of back and forth play in the caps/connection with the switches. Just wondering if this in my head, if it's an alps thing... or?

Nah, moving alps caps is normal.

[E3E]

Just finished modding the wires to work with the crucifix stabs so set is complete and working on a HASU alps64. However, is it me or are all alps as "rocky" as these? Seems like there is a good amount of back and forth play in the caps/connection with the switches. Just wondering if this in my head, if it's an alps thing... or?

My SA caps have more wobble than Alps. I wouldn't say the Alps caps have that much play in them, but then it's been a long time since I've played with a Cherry profile MX board.

[njbair]

Just finished modding the wires to work with the crucifix stabs so set is complete and working on a HASU alps64. However, is it me or are all alps as "rocky" as these? Seems like there is a good amount of back and forth play in the caps/connection with the switches. Just wondering if this in my head, if it's an alps thing... or?

This phenomenon is sometimes called "wobble," and it's not actually the cap, but the slider itself which is wobbly. This is a result of fewer points of contact within the switch housing, which is also the reason why Alps are so smooth.

It's normal and most people get used to it pretty quickly.

[cheddarbek]

I prefer the alps wobble, honestly. Part of why I love Zealios so much too. Dat wobble

[SpikeBolt]

Can you tell me what's the status on shipping, please? Thanks!

[harlw]

Got mine on friday and forgot to bring my dox home with me so just getting to install and inspect today.


There may be some unevenness with my caps but it's hard to tell with staggered rows so I'm happy with what I have.


Ended up with the wrong thumb 2u keys but hopefully that can get straightened out, here she is for now

[njbair]

So I think we finally have enough data to take up the mismatched heights issue with Signature Plastics. After looking over all the photos, it seems to me like there isn't particular set of caps which are off. Some of you have the same problem keys, but some of you have issues with other keys.

I've compiled an Imgur album of the issues (http://imgur.com/a/xQriH), which I've sent along in an email to Signature Plastics so they can see what's going on.

There is really no rhyme or reason to the inconsistencies. I can only imagine that, whatever happened, it either only happened with some of the molds and only some of the time, or they just all got mixed together before SP sorted them out into sets.

As far as what this all means for the resolution, I do not know. The caps are wrong, that's plain to see. We just have to trust SP to make this right.

I'll keep you posted when I hear something.

[axtran]

Can't wait to hear what happens with resolution.

[E3E]

So I think we finally have enough data to take up the mismatched heights issue with Signature Plastics. After looking over all the photos, it seems to me like there isn't particular set of caps which are off. Some of you have the same problem keys, but some of you have issues with other keys.

I've compiled an Imgur album of the issues (http://imgur.com/a/xQriH), which I've sent along in an email to Signature Plastics so they can see what's going on.

There is really no rhyme or reason to the inconsistencies. I can only imagine that, whatever happened, it either only happened with some of the molds and only some of the time, or they just all got mixed together before SP sorted them out into sets.

As far as what this all means for the resolution, I do not know. The caps are wrong, that's plain to see. We just have to trust SP to make this right.

I'll keep you posted when I hear something.

Good to hear, nj.

I didn't even realize the bit about the vertical stems! This is true! Definitely not good. This sounds like it might be a little complicated to resolve.

[sean]

I hope this and the next Alps GB's go smoothly after this is resolved. Thanks njbair.

[SJHL]

Thank you for everything, njbair. If you need more pictures, let me know.

Other than the height issue, the set is very nice. Tried taking a picture of it but it doesn't do any justice.

[skullydazed]

I've been pretty quiet while watching this, but I know SP will make it right. Just gotta give them time. In the meantime I'm watching all the sets posted and dreaming about my own AW build. 

[braidn]

Thanks NJ for all the hard work throughout this along with the attempt at corrections. Legend!

[engicoder]

As an experiment, I placed all my caps on a table top. They all seem to be the same height. Lucky? I put a ruler across the caps and all touch the ruler at the same time.

[E3E]

As an experiment, I placed all my caps on a table top. They all seem to be the same height. Lucky? I put a ruler across the caps and all touch the ruler at the same time.

(Attachment Link)

Unfortunately, that won't give you an accurate measurement, since it's more of a stem issue than it is the cap body itself. The reinforcing cruciform material on the base of the stem is sometimes too high (or too low?) to be even with the other caps.

Even on the blanks I have, I looked at the underside and noticed a lot of inconsistencies.

[engicoder]

As an experiment, I placed all my caps on a table top. They all seem to be the same height. Lucky? I put a ruler across the caps and all touch the ruler at the same time.

(Attachment Link)

Unfortunately, that won't give you an accurate measurement, since it's more of a stem issue than it is the cap body itself. The reinforcing cruciform material on the base of the stem is sometimes too high (or too low?) to be even with the other caps.

Even on the blanks I have, I looked at the underside and noticed a lot of inconsistencies.

Yes..I see that now. Its' not just the stem height alone.

[Hypersphere]

Looking forward to news on what SP decides to do. In the meantime, I am keeping my set in the bag in case I will need to return the caps.

[njbair]

I heard back from Melissa at SP this morning. She was both concerned and contrite. She had a few clarifying questions which I was able to answer. She also voiced some concern regarding the apparently random nature of the issue, as that suggests worrisome production problems.

Melissa came right out and asked whether I thought the entire order needs to be re-run. I replied that the random nature of the issue makes it difficult to imagine any other resolution, but that I would be willing to meet her in the middle if she can think of something less drastic which still results in a full set of correctly-sized caps for all buyers. At this point I don't know what that would be.

The most important thing right now, I think, is to give SP time to investigate the issue and make sure that it's addressed before any replacements are produced.

[jbondeson]

I heard back from Melissa at SP this morning. She was both concerned and contrite. She had a few clarifying questions which I was able to answer. She also voiced some concern regarding the apparently random nature of the issue, as that suggests worrisome production problems.

Melissa came right out and asked whether I thought the entire order needs to be re-run. I replied that the random nature of the issue makes it difficult to imagine any other resolution, but that I would be willing to meet her in the middle if she can think of something less drastic which still results in a full set of correctly-sized caps for all buyers. At this point I don't know what that would be.

The most important thing right now, I think, is to give SP time to investigate the issue and make sure that it's addressed before any replacements are produced.

Good to hear, and if they need anything else as far as more pictures of affected keycaps just let us know. I still need to pull out my second set and see how that one stands.

[njbair]

One more thing. In responding to Melissa's questions this morning, I did a bit more investigating and uncovered some interesting info.

Here's a shot of E3E's board with some row-1 Alpine Winter blanks, with OEM keycaps to the left, and a Badwrench DCS modifier to the right:



There is an obvious difference between heights. The AW blanks are taller than both the OEM keycaps and the Badwrench DCS keycap.

Looking at the AW sets I have on hand, and all the photos reported in, it looks like Alpine Winter's row 1 are mostly correct. This suggests that DCS row 1 is supposed to be taller than OEM.



But if that's the case, why is Badwrench's ESC key sitting so low on E3E's keyboard?

Based on this data, it looks to me like this heights issue was present on Badwrench's modifiers as well. Only nobody noticed it because there are very few modifier keys next to each other. Anyone care to take a look at their Badwrench sets?

[Badwrench]

One more thing. In responding to Melissa's questions this morning, I did a bit more investigating and uncovered some interesting info.

Here's a shot of E3E's board with some row-1 Alpine Winter blanks, with OEM keycaps to the left, and a Badwrench DCS modifier to the right:

Show Image

There is an obvious difference between heights. The AW blanks are taller than both the OEM keycaps and the Badwrench DCS keycap.

Looking at the AW sets I have on hand, and all the photos reported in, it looks like Alpine Winter's row 1 are mostly correct. This suggests that DCS row 1 is supposed to be taller than OEM.

Show Image

But if that's the case, why is Badwrench's ESC key sitting so low on E3E's keyboard?

Based on this data, it looks to me like this heights issue was present on Badwrench's modifiers as well. Only nobody noticed it because there are very few modifier keys next to each other. Anyone care to take a look at their Badwrench sets?

That's odd.  I don't see any height difference from my set to this one:


Do note that without first trimming the flashing from the stems, they are very tight and take more force than most people feel comfortable using to push them all the way in.  I have a video tutorial uploading now and will post it when it is done.

As far as overall height differences, It is mostly the qwer row keys that are most noticable (R,Y,U,P), but also the G, K, V, B, and M keys.  None of my mods are off and the heights of the non-offending keys from this set match the height of mine perfectly. 




Edit:  Tutorial Video.

[E3E]

One more thing. In responding to Melissa's questions this morning, I did a bit more investigating and uncovered some interesting info.

Here's a shot of E3E's board with some row-1 Alpine Winter blanks, with OEM keycaps to the left, and a Badwrench DCS modifier to the right:

Show Image

There is an obvious difference between heights. The AW blanks are taller than both the OEM keycaps and the Badwrench DCS keycap.

Looking at the AW sets I have on hand, and all the photos reported in, it looks like Alpine Winter's row 1 are mostly correct. This suggests that DCS row 1 is supposed to be taller than OEM.

Show Image

But if that's the case, why is Badwrench's ESC key sitting so low on E3E's keyboard?

Based on this data, it looks to me like this heights issue was present on Badwrench's modifiers as well. Only nobody noticed it because there are very few modifier keys next to each other. Anyone care to take a look at their Badwrench sets?

Yeah, the Alpine Winter set seems to sit higher on Row 1 for sure. I actually like the lower-sitting caps though; imo, the blend in more with the Alps OEM (Alps manufactured) caps than the higher-sitting caps, but that might just be a matter of preference.  Checking the other R1 keys from the modifier set here, I'm also seeing that yeah, they sit lower, and there were no inconsistencies in height within Badwrench's set itself.

I think they got a little confused with the molds they were supposed to be running. Kind of crazy since it's turned this into a pretty large scale problem for this set with no one easy solution. :/

[sean]

She also voiced some concern regarding the apparently random nature of the issue, as that suggests worrisome production problems.

This is my biggest concern. I really just hope this is something that can be fixed.

Regarding Badwrench's mods, I do have one example of a high sitting cap

[njbair]

Good news! I just heard back from Signature Plastics. They are going to re-run the whole set. No word yet on a timeline, but I will of course keep you all posted.

[SJHL]

Great news! 

[a-c]

Good news! I just heard back from Signature Plastics. They are going to re-run the whole set. No word yet on a timeline, but I will of course keep you all posted.

How do we pay you for the second round of shipping?

[njbair]

Good news! I just heard back from Signature Plastics. They are going to re-run the whole set. No word yet on a timeline, but I will of course keep you all posted.

How do we pay you for the second round of shipping?

I'll issue new invoices once everything's here in my hands.

I'm thinking that with the USPS rate increases, it might make more sense to use flat rate boxes this time around. I'll have to look into it and see what fits.

[axtran]

Great news!

[geniekid]

Good news! I just heard back from Signature Plastics. They are going to re-run the whole set. No word yet on a timeline, but I will of course keep you all posted.

How do we pay you for the second round of shipping?

I'll issue new invoices once everything's here in my hands.

I'm thinking that with the USPS rate increases, it might make more sense to use flat rate boxes this time around. I'll have to look into it and see what fits.

Good news indeed!  Did they say what went wrong?

[njbair]

Good news indeed!  Did they say what went wrong?

I was hoping someone would ask!

Back in 1987, Signature Plastics designed two different Alps-mount DCS keycaps: 1Z, with a short stem; and EX, with a longer stem which slightly protrudes past the skirt of the keycap. When viewed from the top, the two keycaps are identical except for their height on the switch. The height of the cross ribs for each style was determined by the length of the stem, so 1Z caps had shorter cross ribs and EX caps had taller cross ribs.

Fast forward to 2014-2015, when Signature Plastics observes rising interest in Alps keycaps. Anticipating high demand, SP decides to convert some of their spare 1Z molds into EX molds, to handle increased production rates. Unfortunately, the engineers wrongly assumed that the height of the cross ribs did not matter--that the keycap height was determined solely by the stem length (note that this is the case for Cherry MX stems). In fact, the cavity in an Alps slider is deeper than both 1Z and EX stems, which means the cross ribs are the sole determining factor in keycap height.

So now, Signature Plastics has a bunch of molds spitting out "Q" keycaps for Alpine Winter. Some of them have correctly-sized cross ribs, but others are too short.



Yet all the Q's are being dumped into the same hopper to be sorted out into sets later.

You can see where this is going. If all the keys in a set were short, you'd probably never notice. Likewise, if all the keys were the correct height there would be no issue. But since they are grabbed from the hoppers at random, you end up with mismatched keycap heights in every set, and no consistency regarding which keys are short and tall between sets.

So, now that the problem has been identified, SP is modifying the incorrect molds to produce the higher EX cross ribs. Once the issue has been corrected they will start producing replacement AW sets.

[romevi]

Huh. That's pretty neat to learn.

[sean]

Interesting, I'm really glad it's a fixable problem. Did they mention if they would still offer 1Z molds if a GB leader wanted shorter keycaps? I can't see why anyone would, just wondering.

[HoffmanMyster]

I love all the details provided, thanks to SP for the explanation and njbair for relaying.  This is the sort of stuff I deal with every day at my job, so it's really interesting to me. 

[jdcarpe]

I love all the details provided, thanks to SP for the explanation and njbair for relaying.  This is the sort of stuff I deal with every day at my job, so it's really interesting to me. 

+1

[njbair]

Interesting, I'm really glad it's a fixable problem. Did they mention if they would still offer 1Z molds if a GB leader wanted shorter keycaps? I can't see why anyone would, just wondering.

They didn't say they were converting all of their 1Z molds, just some of them. So I suppose 1Z would still be available. It's worth noting, though, that when I contacted SP about Alps keycaps, they never presented options like this. It's as though EX is the standard, and 1Z is a special case. Their decision to increase their capacity for EX production would seem to support this theory.

I love all the details provided, thanks to SP for the explanation and njbair for relaying.  This is the sort of stuff I deal with every day at my job, so it's really interesting to me. 

I used to make molds. I know how reliable and repeatable they are. So I was having a hard time trying to figure out how this all happened in the first place.

My manufacturing background also leads me to believe that someone likely received quite a royal chewing-out as a result of this error.

[jbondeson]

Great news njbair!

Make sure to hit me up for extra in the reshipment cost since if I remember correctly I was the guinea pig on paypal and didn't have the fees thrown in! Maybe plus some beer money for the extra sorting pain!  )

[swimmingbird]

Thanks for posting that njbair!

That's actually incredibly interesting - it's fantastic that this issue has been identified early on as it could have potentially plagued SP Alps sets for many more buys

[cheddarbek]

Good to hear this is all going to be sorted out. Despite the mistake, I'm impressed that they were able to figure out what the root cause of the problem was.

Gotta love oversights.

[vivalarevolución]

Rerunning the whole set.  Wow.  Why not.

[E3E]

Interesting, I'm really glad it's a fixable problem. Did they mention if they would still offer 1Z molds if a GB leader wanted shorter keycaps? I can't see why anyone would, just wondering.

They didn't say they were converting all of their 1Z molds, just some of them. So I suppose 1Z would still be available. It's worth noting, though, that when I contacted SP about Alps keycaps, they never presented options like this. It's as though EX is the standard, and 1Z is a special case. Their decision to increase their capacity for EX production would seem to support this theory.

I love all the details provided, thanks to SP for the explanation and njbair for relaying.  This is the sort of stuff I deal with every day at my job, so it's really interesting to me. 

I used to make molds. I know how reliable and repeatable they are. So I was having a hard time trying to figure out how this all happened in the first place.

My manufacturing background also leads me to believe that someone likely received quite a royal chewing-out as a result of this error.

This is all fascinating stuff, man.

I'd love the lower-sitting caps to be used for a set, to be honest. They're much sleeker than the higher-sitting ones and match more closely with the Alps Electric profile caps.

Crazy that those molds go all the way back to the 80s, but that shouldn't be surprising, I guess.

Looks like these baby step GBs are really testing SP's Alps mettle. Both sets, badwrench's and Alpine Winter, have had errors and needed to be rerun to an extent. This one is an even bigger mess up.

[njbair]

Looks like these baby step GBs are really testing SP's Alps mettle. Both sets, badwrench's and Alpine Winter, have had errors and needed to be rerun to an extent. This one is an even bigger mess up.

When you stop to think about it, custom keycaps is an extremely detail-oriented business. As such, there's just a lot that can go wrong. Here we have a company that's been chugging along since the eighties, primarily as a B2B enterprise, then along comes the keyboard enthusiast community, which is still less than a decade old, and SP is trying to seize the opportunity to grow their consumer business. But it's completely uncharted waters. Their offerings are far more diverse than their closest competitors--GMK is Cherry only, with limited support for nonstandard keys, and most other keycap makers only spit out 104-key Cherry MX base kits. SP is the only one offering such a wide variety of profiles, mounts, fonts, custom legends, custom sizes, etc. Also, we take for granted all the things that SP gets right every time. For instance, I've never heard of any problems with SP's colors. I've never seen any flashing issues like Tai Hao caps sometimes have. They are also very responsive and a pleasure to work with. And in recent months, we've even watched them change the way they do business to better serve the enthusiast market, as they've overhauled their PMK online store to try and do a better job meeting demand and circumventing the long wait times characteristic of group buys. They even took the time to respond to forum posts and provide good answers right here on Geekhack regarding Massdrop price breaks, which they didn't have to do.

Anyway, I get what you're saying and you're correct, SP is learning some lessons the hard way. But they're also doing a lot of things right. And more importantly, when things go wrong, bending over backwards to make things right.

[E3E]

Looks like these baby step GBs are really testing SP's Alps mettle. Both sets, badwrench's and Alpine Winter, have had errors and needed to be rerun to an extent. This one is an even bigger mess up.

When you stop to think about it, custom keycaps is an extremely detail-oriented business. As such, there's just a lot that can go wrong. Here we have a company that's been chugging along since the eighties, primarily as a B2B enterprise, then along comes the keyboard enthusiast community, which is still less than a decade old, and SP is trying to seize the opportunity to grow their consumer business. But it's completely uncharted waters. Their offerings are far more diverse than their closest competitors--GMK is Cherry only, with limited support for nonstandard keys, and most other keycap makers only spit out 104-key Cherry MX base kits. SP is the only one offering such a wide variety of profiles, mounts, fonts, custom legends, custom sizes, etc. Also, we take for granted all the things that SP gets right every time. For instance, I've never heard of any problems with SP's colors. I've never seen any flashing issues like Tai Hao caps sometimes have. They are also very responsive and a pleasure to work with. And in recent months, we've even watched them change the way they do business to better serve the enthusiast market, as they've overhauled their PMK online store to try and do a better job meeting demand and circumventing the long wait times characteristic of group buys. They even took the time to respond to forum posts and provide good answers right here on Geekhack regarding Massdrop price breaks, which they didn't have to do.

Anyway, I get what you're saying and you're correct, SP is learning some lessons the hard way. But they're also doing a lot of things right. And more importantly, when things go wrong, bending over backwards to make things right.

I 100% agree with you, Nick. Anything I'd add to this would simply be reiterating what you've already said.

Really, Signature Plastics is amazing. Some people have qualms with their profiles or cap thicknesses, but they really beat out ever other cap maker in terms of quality assurance and customer service. Did GMK offer to rerun Triumph Adler?

I don't think so.

(That's half to be punchy, but half because I really don't know, but I doubt that they have.)

[romevi]

I 100% agree with you, Nick.

Whoa, are we allowed to use real names here? )

[E3E]

I 100% agree with you, Nick.

Whoa, are we allowed to use real names here? )

XD I usually say NJ, but that felt appropriate there. I'm not the biggest fan of my name though. Makes me sound like a Spanish matador.

[harlw]

Three cheers for SP and a moment of silence for njbair who gets to do this damn thing twice. I say we pitch in and buy him something nice.

[Badwrench]

Just a quick heads up nj, my gb was specifically ordered in the 1Z profile.  I wanted it to match the height of existing escape keys from sp and some of the older alphas on random boards that were also made by sp.