Author Topic: Why not an alpha colored Tab?  (Read 5156 times)

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Offline KHAANNN

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Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 05:24:14 »
Some sets include a modifier colored "\|" while it's technically an alpha, to create a symmetry, however an alpha colored Tab/icon could also be interesting, as it's mostly an alpha/character too, to create that symmetry from the opposite side
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 05:29:54 »
Technically it's not an alpha.

Alpha - alphabetic character i.e. A-Z (and lowercase equivalents).

It generally generates ASCII code 9, which is a control character.
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 08:36:43 »
Keyboards are not symmetrical. Look at the stagger and the key sizing. Nothing about that is symmetrical.

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.


Technically it's not an alpha.

Alpha - alphabetic character i.e. A-Z (and lowercase equivalents).

It generally generates ASCII code 9, which is a control character.

Thank you, rowdy, for that excellent explanation. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 10:51:26 »
I'm not saying Tab is an alphabetic character

I'm just stating that it's interesting keycap sets sometimes include \| in the colored/modifier keys and never include the "Tab" in the non-modifier key coloring, it could look good
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Offline jbondeson

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:02:55 »
Keyboards are not symmetrical. Look at the stagger and the key sizing. Nothing about that is symmetrical.

It's an aesthetic thing, not a geometry thing. I personally like the edges in all "mod color" and the inside "alpha color."

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.

See, this doesn't make any sense because it can be used to justify just about any position. "Deal with it" isn't a conversation, it's just a dismissal.

Personally I have absolutely no issue paying extra for the additional keys that I would need to make a set look the way I want. Hell, usually it's a good way to subsidize ISO users.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:16:09 »
I'm not saying Tab is an alphabetic character

I'm just stating that it's interesting keycap sets sometimes include \| in the colored/modifier keys and never include the "Tab" in the non-modifier key coloring, it could look good

I don't think it would look all that great.  That said, I have proposed a few sets with Tab and Backspace a totally different color than the modifiers and alphas.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:18:52 »
Because IBM.

They chose to colour certain keys on the "Enhanced" keyboard which set the standard for future boards. That's all. Personally, I don't like it. I prefer mod coloured \|  and `~ keys myself. Sometimes also the spacebar depending on the colour scheme <shock, horror>
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Offline sth

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:19:42 »

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.


yeah or just do whatever you want ???????????????????
i mean, why don't you just use a regular 104 key rubber dome, it's standard. if you don't like it, get over it ????????????
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Offline jbondeson

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:24:33 »
Personally, I don't like it. I prefer mod coloured \|  and `~ keys myself. Sometimes also the spacebar depending on the colour scheme <shock, horror>

:thumb:

I forgot about the spacebar! I totally do that as well on some sets.

Offline Spopepro

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:34:40 »
My board with the translucent orange/white sp set has it set up like this right now.  I think it looks good.  I'll take a picture and post tonight (board is at home).

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Offline mashby

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 13:18:19 »
Keyboards are not symmetrical. Look at the stagger and the key sizing. Nothing about that is symmetrical.

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.


Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 14:03:43 »

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.


yeah or just do whatever you want ???????????????????
i mean, why don't you just use a regular 104 key rubber dome, it's standard. if you don't like it, get over it ????????????

Sure thing, buddy :D

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73999.0



And yes, individually, people can do whatever they want, and it affects me not one whit. Flip your spacebar...I don't care that you're doing it wrong. Just don't expect keyset designers to include every crazy idea in their group buys. Which I think was kinda the objective of the OP.
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Offline sth

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 14:07:35 »

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.


yeah or just do whatever you want ???????????????????
i mean, why don't you just use a regular 104 key rubber dome, it's standard. if you don't like it, get over it ????????????

Sure thing, buddy :D

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73999.0



And yes, individually, people can do whatever they want, and it affects me not one whit. Flip your spacebar...I don't care that you're doing it wrong. Just don't expect keyset designers to include every crazy idea in their group buys. Which I think was kinda the objective of the OP.

:D :D :D

one argument for this being included in 2-color blank sets - hhkb layout. not symmetrical (top row only has 1 mod key on esc) but i would appreciate it! oh well
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Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 14:33:50 »

To those who insist on color symmetry on the "60%" portion of a keyboard: buy only monochromatic keysets, or get over it.


yeah or just do whatever you want ???????????????????
i mean, why don't you just use a regular 104 key rubber dome, it's standard. if you don't like it, get over it ????????????

Sure thing, buddy :D

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73999.0



And yes, individually, people can do whatever they want, and it affects me not one whit. Flip your spacebar...I don't care that you're doing it wrong. Just don't expect keyset designers to include every crazy idea in their group buys. Which I think was kinda the objective of the OP.

Not at all, you don't have to get all defensive :)
I don't think there are any "wrong"'s, just unique ways of doing stuff, you appear very judgemental with your comments

I just think it might make an appealing layout having the R2 in all alpha colors, separating R1 from R3,R4,R5

I've been trying to gather uniquely colored GMK modifiers for my keyboards, as I find it appealing, the Tab is the most challenging one, as it's alone in that row, that's where the thought came from
I don't think it would be easy to pull it off tho, it would likely happen with an icon-only Tab like the GMK ones

You got the 60% part right tho, it wouldn't make too much sense with an F-row

Spopepro, really wonder how your layout looks like, awaiting your photo :)
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Offline hwood34

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 14:55:25 »
Flip your spacebar...I don't care that you're doing it wrong.
Hey now
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Offline njbair

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 16:04:49 »
I've often wondered about Tab, Enter, and even Backspace. Tab and Enter are represented by character codes in modern applications, which makes them as "alpha" as the spacebar. And they certainly aren't modifier keys, since they do their own thing as opposed to modifying the output of other keys. Backspace is unique because it affects the sequence of character codes, but it does so by removing them.

So if by "alphas" you mean any key that affects the character sequence, then Tab, Enter, and Backspace should all be alpha-colored.

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Offline jbondeson

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 16:12:36 »
The whole alpha vs. modifier thing has always been bunk unless you completely ignore the ten-key, or pretend it's a Focus FK-8000 with a built in calculator.

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 07 August 2015, 16:29:37 »
I've often wondered about Tab, Enter, and even Backspace. Tab and Enter are represented by character codes in modern applications, which makes them as "alpha" as the spacebar. And they certainly aren't modifier keys, since they do their own thing as opposed to modifying the output of other keys. Backspace is unique because it affects the sequence of character codes, but it does so by removing them.

So if by "alphas" you mean any key that affects the character sequence, then Tab, Enter, and Backspace should all be alpha-colored.

True

So if one conclusion can be drawn from all these, it might be simpler to just concentrate on the colors and not the functionalities as Oobly does :)

It might also be interesting to convert the \| key into
| Pipe
\ Backslash

and add color
to give it a proper modifier key status with the text descriptions to justify the coloring
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 08 August 2015, 01:04:54 »
Keys that generate a single printable ASCII character are one colour (e.g. pearl on this SSK).

Keys that affect other characters being generated, or generate cursor movement codes, are a different colour (pebble).

Function keys I have not idea - they are half and half (well, 33.333% and 66.667%).  Maybe someone couldn't make up their mind :))
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Offline rm-rf

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 08 August 2015, 02:30:04 »
here is mine....
its also a peg key
so you've got |, and \, and a pirate leg...


Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 08 August 2015, 08:08:45 »
Tab should be mod coloured. So should |\ and ~ and 1.

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 08 August 2015, 17:18:29 »
The behavior of tab and return (and sometimes delete, space, etc.) is really annoying.

Sometimes tab means “put a tab character into the text”, sometimes it is overloaded in software to mean “indent the text”, and sometimes it means “advance to the next field”.

Likewise, return can either mean “put a newline into the text” or “submit the form page” or “activate a button”.

The problem with this is that because programs handle these keystrokes directly at the keystroke level, by judging which physical key was pressed and then performing the action they consider appropriate, it is absolutely impossible to split these separate actions and assign them to separate keys.

Designing custom keyboard layouts would be 1000% better if there was a clean software layer in between physical keypresses and semantic actions, such that they could be properly split by new keyboard layouts. Such a system sort of exists for just standard text boxes in OS X dating from the NeXT days albeit not designed to actually separate various functions of the tab key in different contexts as I would like (cf. http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/site/cocoa-text.html), but it’s been getting worse over time as new Apple developers break things they don’t know about, and a huge amount of software implements its own half-assed ****ty text boxes that do the wrong thing. And then of course, other keyboard interaction is defined by each application in its own way, usually badly. Finally, when you get to browser-based webapps, keyboard handling is just a pile of poop.

Sigh.

Anyway, short answer is: the “tab” key is both a function key and a text input key. You should color it with stripes.

But more seriously: just make all the keys a single solid color with no legends, and your problem is solved.
« Last Edit: Sat, 08 August 2015, 17:23:15 by jacobolus »

Offline rowdy

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 08 August 2015, 21:29:52 »
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline Oobly

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 09 August 2015, 14:22:50 »
Keys that generate a single printable ASCII character are one colour (e.g. pearl on this SSK).

Keys that affect other characters being generated, or generate cursor movement codes, are a different colour (pebble).

Function keys I have not idea - they are half and half (well, 33.333% and 66.667%).  Maybe someone couldn't make up their mind :))

Sooo... Is space a printable character?  ;) I think whatever you argue for space could hold true for Tab, so there isn't complete consistency.

I like to have all the keys on both sides a different colour to the centre, so the alphas are nicely bracketed. It's always bugged me to have `~ and \| different to Enter and Tab. It makes me happy that most GB's include options for these caps.
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 09 August 2015, 21:46:27 »
Keys that generate a single printable ASCII character are one colour (e.g. pearl on this SSK).

Keys that affect other characters being generated, or generate cursor movement codes, are a different colour (pebble).

Function keys I have not idea - they are half and half (well, 33.333% and 66.667%).  Maybe someone couldn't make up their mind :))

Sooo... Is space a printable character?  ;) I think whatever you argue for space could hold true for Tab, so there isn't complete consistency.

I like to have all the keys on both sides a different colour to the centre, so the alphas are nicely bracketed. It's always bugged me to have `~ and \| different to Enter and Tab. It makes me happy that most GB's include options for these caps.

Space is a printable ASCII character, Tab just moves the print head to the next tab stop, which might appear as if it inserts one or more spaces.  Althogh technically it generates control sequence 9 and let's the display handle how to reposition the cursor.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 00:45:27 »
Space is a printable ASCII character, Tab just moves the print head to the next tab stop, which might appear as if it inserts one or more spaces.  Althogh technically it generates control sequence 9 and let's the display handle how to reposition the cursor.
Are you talking about typewriters or what? On a typewriter they both just advance the carriage by different physical distances, without leaving any marks on the paper. The behavior of the tab key on a manual typewriter is slightly trickier than the behavior of the spacebar, but it’s not fundamentally different.

There is absolutely no appreciable difference between the types of behaviors tab and space keys perform on modern computers. They’re both just abstract actions to be interpreted however software prefers, and have been for at least 30 years. These days, both of them are overloaded for multiple purposes, including inserting text characters (usually a space or tab character, but sometimes others), activating UI elements, toggling between UI elements, and performing arbitrary other commands.

I guess you’re maybe talking about teletype? Even then, I think your argument is a tough sell.

Also not sure it makes any sense to call space a “printable” character. Here’s what the ASCII spec (RFC 20) says about space and tab:

Quote
SP (Space): A normally non-printing graphic character used to separate words.  It is also a format effector which controls the movement of the printing position, one printing position forward. (Applicable also to display devices.) [...]

HT (Horizontal Tabulation): A format effector which controls the movement of the printing position to the next in a series of predetermined positions along the printing line.  (Applicable also to display devices and the skip function on punched cards.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 August 2015, 01:04:10 by jacobolus »

Offline rowdy

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 01:19:15 »
"Non-printing" - as in not requiring ink or pixels to render on the output medium.

I was thinking more simply - it is a single character that is always the same width and always exactly one character width that can be inserted and deleted from the text exactly as any other "printable" character.

A tab is either saved in the text as a tab (ASCII 9), which is then rendered differently by different editors depending on their configuration, and similarly printed differently depending on various environmental factors.

I program in Python a lot, and always use spaces.  I have lobbied for spaces rather than tabs in other languages used at work, and people have acknowledge my arguments and acceeded to the suggestion.  Tabs are evil when used in source - the source might be lined up in one editor nicely, and in another text is all over the place.

Same with any non-trivial editing application, such as word processors and spreadsheets.  A space, when inserted, appears as a single width character anywhere that other text can appear.  A tab, on the other hand, in word processors moves the cursor and following text to the next tab stop, and in a spreadsheet pressing Tab generally moves the highlight to the next cell.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline Oobly

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 03:46:50 »
That's a really SPECIFIC definition, when in reality the ACTION of space is more closely related to the action of Tab than any printed character. While space moves a specific amount, Tab moves to a specific position, but otherwise they have the same function. Anyway, my main point is that the reason IBM coloured the keys a certain way is kind of arbitrary (look at the F keys and number pad, for example, Num lock and Enter should be the only dark ones since * / + - are all printable characters, in that case it's more about the intended use when doing calculations), so it's really just that the Extended keyboard layout was copied and used so much that it became a standard. Doesn't mean it's the only "correct" way to group keys.

I agree about using spaces in code, though.. Tab can really look borked in some editors, especially when combined with spaces as it often is.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 04:35:41 »
I program in Python a lot, and always use spaces.  I have lobbied for spaces rather than tabs in other languages used at work, and people have acknowledge my arguments and acceeded to the suggestion.  Tabs are evil when used in source - the source might be lined up in one editor nicely, and in another text is all over the place.
What does that have to do with anything...?

Quote
Same with any non-trivial editing application, such as word processors and spreadsheets.  A space, when inserted, appears as a single width character anywhere that other text can appear.  A tab, on the other hand, in word processors moves the cursor and following text to the next tab stop, and in a spreadsheet pressing Tab generally moves the highlight to the next cell.

To be more complete, the space key pauses the song or movie, scrolls the web page or PDF file, activates the GUI button, temporarily switches the image editor tool to the grabber hand, displays a preview of the currently selected file manager item, brings up the 3d modeler menu, makes the game avatar jump, ...

By contrast the tab key moves to the next form field, selects the next button, shows/hides all the tool palettes, toggles between UI modes, continues cycling between tabs/windows/applications, triggers an action based on the currently typed word, invokes autocomplete, ...

Then once you start adding other modifier keys, each of these keys is overloaded to do several other things in each context.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 04:44:33 »
Anyway, the coloring of keys was decided by IBM. They switched away from the awesome looking keycaps from the Selectric + beam spring era because ****ty German regulations required them to use low-contrast neutral colors (i.e. dark gray on light gray and dark gray on light-middle gray), a low overall keyboard height, cylindrical keycaps which were easier to internationalize with multiple multilingual legends, etc.

I don’t think there’s any grand design to the coloring they chose for the Model F keyboards, it was just some engineer or manager’s preference. In particular, the spacebar switched from control key color to letter key color.

They went from these:



To this:

Offline rowdy

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 05:43:19 »
I program in Python a lot, and always use spaces.  I have lobbied for spaces rather than tabs in other languages used at work, and people have acknowledge my arguments and acceeded to the suggestion.  Tabs are evil when used in source - the source might be lined up in one editor nicely, and in another text is all over the place.
What does that have to do with anything...?

Just part of my argument that a space is a single character "printable", whereas Tab is a cursor movement/position control character.

Quote
Same with any non-trivial editing application, such as word processors and spreadsheets.  A space, when inserted, appears as a single width character anywhere that other text can appear.  A tab, on the other hand, in word processors moves the cursor and following text to the next tab stop, and in a spreadsheet pressing Tab generally moves the highlight to the next cell.

To be more complete, the space key pauses the song or movie, scrolls the web page or PDF file, activates the GUI button, temporarily switches the image editor tool to the grabber hand, displays a preview of the currently selected file manager item, brings up the 3d modeler menu, makes the game avatar jump, ...

By contrast the tab key moves to the next form field, selects the next button, shows/hides all the tool palettes, toggles between UI modes, continues cycling between tabs/windows/applications, triggers an action based on the currently typed word, invokes autocomplete, ...

Then once you start adding other modifier keys, each of these keys is overloaded to do several other things in each context.

That describes how an application responds to a keyboard generating a particular key code, not really anything to do with whether the key generates a "printable" ASCII character or not.  I admit that I may have strayed slightly from this specific topic too.

An unadulterated space typed into a simple text editor will place an ASCII 32 character into the text and move the cursor forward one space.  In pretty much any text editor.

An unadulterated Tab typed into a simple text editor will generally move the cursor forward to the next software-defined "tab stop" by either inserting a Tab character (ASCII 9) and moving the cursor forward to the next software-defined tab stop, or ju inserting a sufficient number of space characters to achieve the same cursor position.

As a programmer I tend to think of how I would write code to achieve something, and I have indeed written several editors over the years.

A space is no different to any other printable ASCII alpha-numeric or punctuation character - display the character and move the cursor forward one space.

A Tab is much more complicated, and there are several ways of handling them.

Thus to me a space is a simple ASCII character, and the space bar should be the same colour as the alpha keys, whereas a Tab is a special function that acts differently when typed into different applications, and should be coloured as a modifier.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 06:14:44 »
An unadulterated space typed into a simple text editor will place an ASCII 32 character into the text and move the cursor forward one space.  In pretty much any text editor.

An unadulterated Tab typed into a simple text editor will generally move the cursor forward to the next software-defined "tab stop" by either inserting a Tab character (ASCII 9) and moving the cursor forward to the next software-defined tab stop, or ju inserting a sufficient number of space characters to achieve the same cursor position.
A “simple text editor” is going to put a literal tab character in every time. A programmer’s text editor is not “simple”, and many programmer’s text editors have complex context-specific behaviors for both tab and space keys. But even most programmer’s editors will put a tab character in by default, with other effects in custom settings.

Quote
Thus to me a space is a simple ASCII character, and the space bar should be the same colour as the alpha keys, whereas a Tab is a special function that acts differently when typed into different applications, and should be coloured as a modifier.
If you’d just said that off the bat no one would have had any beef. If that’s how you personally think about it, fair enough.

The way I see it, space, tab, and return keys have much more in common with each-other than any of the three has with any other key on the keyboard.
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 August 2015, 06:19:19 by jacobolus »

Offline Oobly

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 07:21:33 »
TLDR: Blah, blah, blah, give us a new colour option in GB's.

OP is requesting an option that has not previously been common. Personally, I don't think it's a popular enough option to be included generally in all new keycap GBs, but he's free to request it in the specific ones he joins.
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Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 09:54:39 »
I program in Python a lot, and always use spaces.  I have lobbied for spaces rather than tabs in other languages used at work, and people have acknowledge my arguments and acceeded to the suggestion.  Tabs are evil when used in source - the source might be lined up in one editor nicely, and in another text is all over the place.

I suspected something like this was at play, I also program a lot in Python and always use Tab's :)

I personally don't get spacers much :)

When you open *almost any* text editor, deleting a tab deletes the tab, however with spaces one usually needs to calibrate the text editor well to handle the spaces, even most acknowledged text editor's/IDE's don't handle/traverse spaces well, sometimes a backspaces deletes 2/4 spaces, however an arrow_left/right traverse only one space, it's disturbing beyond imagination, while a tab is a tab, simple

To be clear, I'm not requesting a new tab color to be added to keysets, just wanted to hear opinions, thinking of ordering 250 Tab's with the GMK order I'm planning, while the base CC color is an option, I think I'm going to go with an orange one (an icon-only CC-base-color is still very tempting tho, but adding the text kind-of warrants a modifier/unique color in my opinion)
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 16:10:37 »
I suspected something like this was at play, I also program a lot in Python and always use Tab's :)
This is totally off topic by now, but I’m guessing you don’t ever work collaboratively on Python code?

The vast vast majority of all Python code uses 4 spaces per indent level, and 4 spaces per indent is the default on most Python-specific tooling. Absolutely every serious programmer’s text editor has no trouble using spaces for indentation, and if your editor is stumbling on them, you should either adjust its configuration or stop using notepad.exe.

PEP 8 recommends using spaces instead of tabs, https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#tabs-or-spaces

Guido has cited allowing tabs for indentation (especially allowing a mix of tabs and spaces) to be one of his biggest regrets in the language.

If you ever intend your Python code to become public, please use spaces, it’ll save everyone a lot of headaches needing to adjust their tools for only your code.

(What you use on your own personal private projects on your own time is of course your own business.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 August 2015, 16:18:21 by jacobolus »

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 16:33:32 »
There is a saying here that very roughly translates as "every hero has his own way of eating yoghurt" - so I will stick to the way I like doing things, again, very off topic, I find the python community to be one of the most religious ones out there, defending their own values and seeing anything against them as blasphemy

My IDE of choice is currently Sublime Text 3, however, even it traverses 4 spaces one by one with arrows, rather than jumping over them 4 by 4, this is just one example of space-issues, the way I see it, there is no point in using 4 spaces for 1 indentation, but there is also no point in arguing about this either (there should obviously be a solution if one desires to traverse them 4 by 4, but my point is, no need to deal with it while tabs are so simple)

But I get your point, if collaboration was an objective, spaces could have been a necessary evil, but luckily it's not
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 17:16:19 »
I find the python community to be one of the most religious ones out there, defending their own values and seeing anything against them as blasphemy
The point is not to trample on anyone or root out heresy. The point is to make it so that it’s easy to collaborate. Many of the design decisions that went into the syntax and semantics of Python are about making sure there is an obvious way to do things. This keeps developers on track, and helps prevent lots of arguments about what the right way is. Arguing about which of two mostly equivalent methods is better is a waste of everyone’s time, so as a community it’s better to just pick one and stick with it. Tabs and spaces is a perfect example here: using tabs or spaces is mostly a trivial and irrelevant question with minimal effects, but when the two are mixed in the same project (or even in the same community generally) it’s a big pain in the ass.

Other language communities (for instance Perl and Ruby) have a different philosophy, and as a result you see more creative (ab)use of language features, which sometimes helps people solve problems in interesting ways, but often makes other people’s code unnecessarily difficult to read and understand.

Quote
My IDE of choice is currently Sublime Text 3, however, even it traverses 4 spaces one by one with arrows,
Sublime Text is, sadly, a half-assed clone of TextMate which shamelessly copied a large number of TextMate features and piggybacked on the TextMate community’s hard work making various language modes without giving anything back (indeed, for a long time and perhaps still it wasn’t actually possible to *edit* the commands and language grammars and so on from within ST, so ST users couldn’t have easily contributed anything if they wanted), but on the flip side left a number of basic features (such as the basic navigation using the arrow keys, apparently) poorly implemented. It was unfortunately never designed with an overarching plan or structure, resulting in a confusing and disorganized and in many ways user unfriendly mess of an editor. It has also stagnated after the creator ran out of things to copy. It’s especially sad because the confusion contributed to the loss of community engagement around TextMate itself. (Although, a lot of that is also the fault of the TextMate author, who became severely demotivated/burned out for a few years when trying to do a big rewrite, something that has nothing to do with ST.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 August 2015, 17:59:38 by jacobolus »

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 18:01:31 »
Very interesting, I think something like that might be brewing for ST too (Atom might take it's throne), a lot of the package developers seem to be dissatisfied, but minor issues aside, ST is pretty good in general

I think I decided to give alpha-coloured Tab's a try by adding icon-only GMK Dolch Tab's with the F/J order I was going to do, I'm going to sleep on it a bit, to see whether it will be something I regret, GMK seems crammed at the moment any way (with each modifier a different color, having R2 as a mono-coloured separator seems like a good balancer, this is the reasoning, I think it will make my layout more appealing at least)
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Offline Spopepro

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 10 August 2015, 21:08:49 »
My board with the translucent orange/white sp set has it set up like this right now.  I think it looks good.  I'll take a picture and post tonight (board is at home).

Jared Prolo
Sorry this is a little late.  It looks good!  Right?


Offline Oobly

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 11 August 2015, 03:37:34 »
Ah, love to see the Cherry Legends set in use.

Personally I'd prefer it with orange `~, Backspace and Insert. And on the top row, orange Esc, F5-F8 and PrtScr, Scroll Lock and Pause.

I do quite like how a clean Tab through \| of one colour looks, but then I'd need the `~ key to be in the mods colour to satisfy my eye.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: Why not an alpha colored Tab?
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 11 August 2015, 09:20:56 »
That's an extremely interesting keyboard on many levels

Looks great, I really like how you created that contrast for the arrows (arrows really need the contrast if they are not separate as in standard keyboards)

What I'm thinking is close to your 60% Block + Orange Esc/Backspace
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days