Did Apple Ever Invent Anything?

[morpheus]

Interesting video...

[smknjoe]

Didn't watch the video, but I can't think of anything they actually invented. I guess you could say the modern PC. The Apple II was the first completely self-contained and fully assembled PC available if I remember correctly.

Everything else was "copied", re-packaged, re-branded, and passed off as "original."

[hwood34]

Well, in the video, they did admit while Wozniak was there, they did invent a few things like the Apple II (even though most of that was just technology taken from Xerox computers), after that it was all just re purposed technology put together and called something new.

[smknjoe]

I think you have the Mac and Apple II confused. The Apple I and II were all Woz. The Apple I was basically just a MB, RAM, and CPU. The Apple II put it all in a nice case and was fully functional out of the box. The Mac (and Lisa) was the windowed GUI and mouse combo that was copied from Xerox PARC.

[hwood34]

Yep sorry my bad

[Findecanor]

I think that Apple have invented drag-and-drop back in the early '80s. Xerox Star did not have drag-and-drop, but click-key press-click, where there were special keys on the keyboard called Copy and Move
... but yes, this was still when Wozniak was at the company.

[ideus]

They invented the brand, and a very cool way to create an elite horde of fanboys.

[smknjoe]

IDK if that's true, but if it is that's sort of grasping at straws don't you think? Sort of like saying that the right click is an "invention" when it's really the mouse that was the ground breaking device that changed the way we compute (which was invented by someone other than Apple.) I think invention should be something substantial and completely original in this context.

[ideus]

In a more serious consideration, there is a difference between inventor, innovator and entrepreneur. I think Mr. Jobs was the entrepreneur, Mr. Makula the innovator, and Mr. Wozniak the inventor between many others that contributed to the Apple's startup and later success.

[smknjoe]

Woz is an awesome engineer/inventor for sure. And Jobs was a great "idea" and marketing guru for sure. Apple, and Jobs, were/are great at taking other people's ideas and inventions and making you think they thought of it first and that you have to have it.

[ideus]

Woz is an awesome engineer/inventor for sure. And Jobs was a great "idea" and marketing guru for sure. Apple, and Jobs, were/are great at taking other people's ideas and inventions and making you think they thought of it first and that you have to have it.

Innovation is the embodiment of an useful idea into the marketplace (MIT).

[baldgye]

I don't really understand the point of the question or video?

[smknjoe]

Many people (incorrectly) think that Apple invented or created most of the consumer electronics we use today when they actually didn't invent the majority of what they sell. I think that was the point of the video.

[baldgye]

Many people (incorrectly) think that Apple invented or created most of the consumer electronics we use today when they actually didn't invent the majority of what they sell. I think that was the point of the video.

Isn't that true of most super successful companies though?

[hwood34]

Many people (incorrectly) think that Apple invented or created most of the consumer electronics we use today when they actually didn't invent the majority of what they sell. I think that was the point of the video.

Isn't that true of most super successful companies though?

To an extent yes, but Apple not only took these technologies from other companies, they then sued the companies they stole the technology from, and even over stuff like the shape of a laptop

[baldgye]

Many people (incorrectly) think that Apple invented or created most of the consumer electronics we use today when they actually didn't invent the majority of what they sell. I think that was the point of the video.

Isn't that true of most super successful companies though?

To an extent yes, but Apple not only took these technologies from other companies, they then sued the companies they stole the technology from, and even over stuff like the shape of a laptop

...and Microsoft tired to own the internet with IE, Intel paid companies not to use AMD CPU's in there machines and Samsung is currently suing Dyson becasue Dyson sued them for blatant copy right infringement...

[hashbaz]

I came in here to post something snarky but the video was interesting and not as slam-dunky Apple-bashy as expected.

Isn't that true of most super successful companies though?

They address this question near the end of the video.

[ideus]

Awesome video. I have seen very well informed critics on Apple.

[Lanx]

they invented turn of the century effective marketing and i guess the cool counter culture.

i don't know how the culture evolved to being mainstream acceptable, but when i was selling computers in 97, the apple customer was a gay "punkish" guy, or a dumb girl. No seriously this is speaking as a (former) professional salesman if you saw an offbeat "village" type (i was selling in downtown ny) come into the store, they wanted an apple computer.

now it's become culturally acceptable and "cool" to have apple products, it's amazing,

they invented a computer cult, the scientology of the computer world.

[ideus]

they invented turn of the century effective marketing and i guess the cool counter culture.

i don't know how the culture evolved to being mainstream acceptable, but when i was selling computers in 97, the apple customer was a gay "punkish" guy, or a dumb girl. No seriously this is speaking as a (former) professional salesman if you saw an offbeat "village" type (i was selling in downtown ny) come into the store, they wanted an apple computer.

now it's become culturally acceptable and "cool" to have apple products, it's amazing,

they invented a computer cult, the scientology of the computer world.

Here at GH we invented the keyboard cult and we consider cool to have many boards and to pay hundreds for some of them. Isn't it amazing!

[Michael]

http://stks.freshpatents.com/AAPL-sym.php

[Rewind]

http://stks.freshpatents.com/AAPL-sym.php

To be fair, buying patents is not inventing

[nubbinator]

Opened the video, saw it was Tek Syndicate, immediately closed it.

Apple is a company that often copies and improves upon the competition or, at the very least, combined the best parts of the competition, but they have also innovated in some areas.  As much as I dislike Jobs and the way that Apple is run, to say that Apple never invented anything is just wrong.

And remember, almost all the great technological advances are iterative advances.

[hashbaz]

Opened the video, saw it was Tek Syndicate, immediately closed it.

Apple is a company that often copies and improves upon the competition or, at the very least, combined the best parts of the competition, but they have also innovated in some areas.  As much as I dislike Jobs and the way that Apple is run, to say that Apple never invented anything is just wrong.

And remember, almost all the great technological advances are iterative advances.

This is the first I've seen of Tek Syndicate, so I don't know if there's history to be aware of here.  But the video explicitly says that Apple is great at being innovative and combining things and doing things better than other companies.  The argument the video is making is that Apple is suing other companies for doing what they themselves do -- copying others' good ideas and iterating on them.

[nubbinator]

He's just one of those people who acts like he knows what he's talking about, but is flat out wrong.  He's given advice like stating that you should lap an HDT style heatsink, did a series of horrible FX-8350 vs i5 vs i7 videos that fanboys latched onto even though his methods are horrible, he's done some terrible audio reviews that really were just marketing for someone, and he's done a bunch of things like that.  He's just not a reliable resource on anything.  If he has an occasional good video, good for him, but most of his stuff needs to be taken with a massive grain of salt.

[smknjoe]

Like I said earlier, the only thing I can think of is the first practical PC (Personal Computer) - Apple I. That's pretty significant. The Apple II was very significant as well. Both were completely original designs. After that they stuck to "improving" other people's designs.
 

[vivalarevolución]

I cannot watch the video because my work blocks youtube, but very little is actually invented from scratch.  Innovators are stealing ideass from others all the time, but they are able to connect the dots or tweak things that make their product more unique or useful.  Apple just figured out a way to make conumer electronics very appealing and easy to use. 

[ideus]

I cannot watch the video because my work blocks youtube, but very little is actually invented from scratch.  Innovators are stealing ideass from others all the time, but they are able to connect the dots or tweak things that make their product more unique or useful.  Apple just figured out a way to make conumer electronics very appealing and easy to use.

It is important to aknowledge the differences between inventor, innovator and entrepreneur, we are always using them as the same and also understand that a single person or company does it all at once.

[tbc]

Opened the video, saw it was Tek Syndicate, immediately closed it.

Apple is a company that often copies and improves upon the competition or, at the very least, combined the best parts of the competition, but they have also innovated in some areas.  As much as I dislike Jobs and the way that Apple is run, to say that Apple never invented anything is just wrong.

And remember, almost all the great technological advances are iterative advances.

I'm just never sure why people have to always stretch out definitions. not really aimed at you nub, but you wrote the post well.

can't people just be happy that Apple has always been VERY ****ING GOOD at popularizing/selling computers/electronics*?

if you support apple, you don't have to belittle others' achievements just to say that Apple did good.

*this is a VERY important part of inventing something; inventions are worthless if they are not sold in some form or another


personally, I don't know enough about Apple to say that they invented NOTHING, but they clearly did not invent everything or even a significant chunk of it (their specialty has always been taking unknown products/ideas and getting people who originally hated it to hand over their money)

[jacobolus]

This video is asinine.

Here folks, read something actually interesting and useful about a related topic: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

[daerid]

Everything's a remix. Doesn't matter in the long run who invents something, it matters who makes it most usable and desirable.

[ideus]

Everything's a remix. Doesn't matter in the long run who invents something, it matters who makes it most usable and desirable.

That is precisely the difference between invention and innovation. The second reach the market, while the first may claim copy rights and originality. I do prefer those things that add value to the market and improve our lives.

[Wildcard]

I love the story about Apple Computer. Because there is so much you can learn from it. The story isn't over, we hope, but it's definitely been interesting to watch.

Ironically it was actually Woz who sold Jobs on the idea of a computer in every home and not the other way around. Apple really pushed the concept of using software drivers which helped to lower the cost of technology and simplify the design of hardware components.

Steve Jobs was logical, artistic, and passionate. That combination helped him to brilliantly market technology that he himself didn't invent. Some of the things he did, could definitely be seen as cheesy. But other things were brilliant and highly innovative.

The main point, is that new technology needs technical innovation, great vision, and capital or it will die. Much like a fire (air, heat, fuel) if you take one of these factors away, it will slowly decrease until it smothers itself out. I've seen amazing technology die under these same circumstances, in fact we all probably have. And it's sad, and it's a waste of time, and a waste of good talent.

Pixar didn't invent 3D imaging or animation, but they found a way to do it very well. Ford didn't invent the automobile, but he figured out a way to assembly-line it and market it. As a tidbit Ford is credited in inventing the modern work week (M-F) because he had a vision of people socializing on their weekends and driving around in his automobile.

I remember reading an article several years ago (actually over a decade now) where Bill Gates was in his Washington home in a very relaxed mood talking to a reporter while he played around with his HP tablet. He pointed to the HP TC1200, and told the journalist that this was the future of personal computing. Here you have the founder of Microsoft, a tech visionary in his own way saying tablets are the future. But unfortunately, without the good vision of a better development structure, a more custom touch friendly UI, windows tablet completely failed. If you've ever seen a HP TC1200 in person, you'll realize what the device was capable of. I used similar tablets for a long time, but I always felt limited by the clunky stylus input.

Sadly I watched Gate's vision crumble as the "tablet" appeared to fail and become washed over by new trends. And by fail, I mean it wasn't a marketable success and it didn't catch on. Microsoft still created some good software (OneNote for example) and tablets still existed, but the hype was mostly gone. Microsoft ditched their "XP Tablet Edition" and instead allowed future OS's to support touch input (notice they weren't trying to actively market windows on tablets).

Flash forward to when the original Apple iPads came out. Jobs made a comment, that I at first doubted but now I understand. If you create a touch device and have to use a stylus, you've failed. People want to interact with technology in a way that feels seamless and connected. If you've watched a toddler swipe through a nursery book app, you'll get it.

Apple's products don't do everything I want them to do. But they do some things very well.

Just remember what "smart" phones were like before the iPhone came out. They did a good thing. And now we have lots of competition going in the right direction.

Let's just hope it stays that way.

[ideus]

Inventor = Woz,
Innovator = Woz + Jobs,
Entrepreneur = Jobs + Makula + Some others.

[hashbaz]

Pixar didn't invent 3D imaging or animation, but they found a way to do it very well.

The principal people behind Pixar actually did invent quite a bit of 3D imaging and animation.

[Wildcard]

Pixar didn't invent 3D imaging or animation, but they found a way to do it very well.

The principal people behind Pixar actually did invent quite a bit of 3D imaging and animation.

Right, they didn't invent the original technology. But they expanded on it, innovated, and created new technology along the way.

[heedpantsnow]

Apple invented fanboys.

[ideus]

They invented the brand cult.

[baldgye]

Everything's a remix.

#1995

[hashbaz]

Pixar didn't invent 3D imaging or animation, but they found a way to do it very well.

The principal people behind Pixar actually did invent quite a bit of 3D imaging and animation.

Right, they didn't invent the original technology. But they expanded on it, innovated, and created new technology along the way.

Wrong -- they did invent a lot of original technology and techniques.  I don't want to derail but this is something I happen to know about.  Check out the Wikipedia pages on Pixar, Ed Catmull, and Alvy Ray Smith if you're curious.  Pixar is not just an animation studio.

[paicrai]

Lawsuits?

[davkol]

Flash forward to when the original Apple iPads came out. Jobs made a comment, that I at first doubted but now I understand. If you create a touch device and have to use a stylus, you've failed. People want to interact with technology in a way that feels seamless and connected. If you've watched a toddler swipe through a nursery book app, you'll get it.

Pen-/stylus-controlled tablets were and still are perfect for content creation. I still use a Tablet PC (thinkpad X200T), Nokia N800 and Asus Eee Note for a reason. But yeah, majority of users just post stupid **** of Facebook, read tabloids and don't care about the consequences of the war on general computing.

Just remember what "smart" phones were like before the iPhone came out. They did a good thing. And now we have lots of competition going in the right direction.

Quite the opposite. I can't find any (quality) 3inch smartphone that entered the market after 2011. There's nothing like Nokia 9500 or SE P900 either. The market has essentially converged to big, capacitive, locked-down bricks with no keyboard.

[Wildcard]

Pixar didn't invent 3D imaging or animation, but they found a way to do it very well.

The principal people behind Pixar actually did invent quite a bit of 3D imaging and animation.

Right, they didn't invent the original technology. But they expanded on it, innovated, and created new technology along the way.

Wrong -- they did invent a lot of original technology and techniques.  I don't want to derail but this is something I happen to know about.  Check out the Wikipedia pages on Pixar, Ed Catmull, and Alvy Ray Smith if you're curious.  Pixar is not just an animation studio.

How is that wrong? Pixar "the company" is not credited at being the original "inventor" of 3D animation. There was 3d animation being done in the 60's and 70's. wikipedia

But you're missing my point, Pixar did invent a lot of the new technology and techniques being used today in computer animation. Ed Catmull is probably the first person credited for using 3D animation in cinema, and I'm not arguing that. I'm not arguing what Pixar has been able to achieve. Like the Ford reference, Ford didn't invent the automobile, but to say Ford didn't invent anything would be foolish. It would also be selling them short of what they contributed to the automotive industry.

It doesn't matter if you like Apple or not, the company has helped shaped modern technology, which you really can't argue. And they have been credited at inventing a lot of stuff.

[smknjoe]

Flash forward to when the original Apple iPads came out. Jobs made a comment, that I at first doubted but now I understand. If you create a touch device and have to use a stylus, you've failed. People want to interact with technology in a way that feels seamless and connected. If you've watched a toddler swipe through a nursery book app, you'll get it.

Pen-/stylus-controlled tablets were and still are perfect for content creation. I still use a Tablet PC (thinkpad X200T), Nokia N800 and Asus Eee Note for a reason. But yeah, majority of users just post stupid **** of Facebook, read tabloids and don't care about the consequences of the war on general computing.

Just remember what "smart" phones were like before the iPhone came out. They did a good thing. And now we have lots of competition going in the right direction.

Quite the opposite. I can't find any (quality) 3inch smartphone that entered the market after 2011. There's nothing like Nokia 9500 or SE P900 either. The market has essentially converged to big, capacitive, locked-down bricks with no keyboard.
[/quo

Flash forward to when the original Apple iPads came out. Jobs made a comment, that I at first doubted but now I understand. If you create a touch device and have to use a stylus, you've failed. People want to interact with technology in a way that feels seamless and connected. If you've watched a toddler swipe through a nursery book app, you'll get it.

Pen-/stylus-controlled tablets were and still are perfect for content creation. I still use a Tablet PC (thinkpad X200T), Nokia N800 and Asus Eee Note for a reason. But yeah, majority of users just post stupid **** of Facebook, read tabloids and don't care about the consequences of the war on general computing.

Just remember what "smart" phones were like before the iPhone came out. They did a good thing. And now we have lots of competition going in the right direction.

Quite the opposite. I can't find any (quality) 3inch smartphone that entered the market after 2011. There's nothing like Nokia 9500 or SE P900 either. The market has essentially converged to big, capacitive, locked-down bricks with no keyboard.

Tablets have been around since the late 80's and touch screen smart phones since 2001 at least. The Pocket PC I had (made by HTC) came out in 2005 and was great. I could even write my own apps for it.

Apple just takes existing technology, wraps it in a pretty package, tells you that they "created" it (and you, the average public, don't know any better), charges double to quadruple the market value, and laughs all the way to the bank. Plus, they severely restrict user/owner control over their devices and software more-so than Microsoft has in the past.

What has Apple "shaped" other than a luxury PC and electronics market that didn't really exist until the iPod took off? The iPod played a large part in saving the company from bankruptcy when it came out in 2001/2002. Then when they switched from the antiquated Power PC platform to Intel in 2006 they were able to solidify a place in "main-stream" luxury PC market.

[hashbaz]

How is that wrong? Pixar "the company" is not credited at being the original "inventor" of 3D animation. There was 3d animation being done in the 60's and 70's. wikipedia

But you're missing my point, Pixar did invent a lot of the new technology and techniques being used today in computer animation. Ed Catmull is probably the first person credited for using 3D animation in cinema, and I'm not arguing that. I'm not arguing what Pixar has been able to achieve. Like the Ford reference, Ford didn't invent the automobile, but to say Ford didn't invent anything would be foolish. It would also be selling them short of what they contributed to the automotive industry.

I didn't miss your point, and in fact I agree with it.  But I think you're playing fast and loose with your examples and your definitions.

It doesn't matter if you like Apple or not, the company has helped shaped modern technology, which you really can't argue. And they have been credited at inventing a lot of stuff.

This makes it sound like you are missing the point.  The argument the video is making is that Apple's vigorous litigation against other companies is shameful and hypocritical given that they themselves have originated so little.  The video acknowledges the tremendous work Apple has done bringing usable products to market and maturing them.  But that is a different thing than inventing those products.

[ideus]

This discussion is getting emotional. Provide warrants for your claims, and let the people to judge based on the facts of your case. Remember: In God we trust, everybody else should bring data...

[jacobolus]

The argument the video is making is that Apple's vigorous litigation against other companies is shameful and hypocritical given that they themselves have originated so little.  The video acknowledges the tremendous work Apple has done bringing usable products to market and maturing them.  But that is a different thing than inventing those products.

The video is click-bait, not an argument. Its authors are some combination of disingenuous and idiotic. Trying to create a meaningful discussion using it as a premise is close to a lost cause.

[heedpantsnow]

In before it's locked

[tricheboars]

Intel, Motorola, Texas Instruments, ARM, and DARPA/DOD invent things. Apple repackages their inventions as well as other people's inventions and sells them.  This is obvious.  Confusion exists because of the abuses in the court system.  People think, "well apple won its case against samsung blah blah", so obviosuly samsung is copying apple's inventions. wrong. both of them are squabbling about packaging ARM and Motorola's inventions (regarding the galaxy line).  and dont take my example to mean that i think Samsung hasnt invented anything. 

I like apple. i really hate their keyboards and the OS but any company that can make a laptop that my 'old lady' doesnt break after 2 years is amazing. amazing guys.

however their machines blow dong at playing games so i will never buy one myself.

[ideus]

Does it matter? After all they have made a lot of money, and its products are outperforming some of their competitors. Thus, it does not matter much if they invented something, or if they are just innovating business ecosystems.

[Coreda]

Responding to the thread title (haven't watched the video): everything we own is a culmination of various once original 'inventions', and even those original concepts were further refinements of past ideas.

Innovation doesn't simply end when the first workable idea is made into a product - it's made better, more efficient and changes over time. Are we all using the first OSes, music players, telephones, typewriters, cars, or virtually anything? No. Would we want to? No. Good products come after an enormous amount of effort, and Apple has shown over the years it can fashion solid products.

It makes no difference to the quality of a product who created the first existing form, as with time and the right talent it can be made better. No single creative idea is wholly original, everything is a synthesis, and Apple is brilliant at synthesizing new technologies into better consumer products. The same can be said for other companies such as Google, they are all driving innovation forward. And that is what ultimately matters.

[davkol]

Innovation doesn't simply end when the first workable idea is made into a product - it's made better, more efficient and changes over time. Are we all using the first OSes, music players, telephones, typewriters, cars, or virtually anything? No. Would we want to? No.

Meanwhile almost all PCs still use 140+ years old QWERTY with only minor changes, such as addition of 1 and 0 keys.

[ideus]

Invent is different than innovate. Innovation is the commercially viable form of the invention. The embodiment of an useful idea into the marketplace. The entrepreneur is primarily concerned with the business mechanics to starting and growing a new venture.


-> Inventor: Identify opportunities to create useful ideas.
--> Innovator: Enable new company formation.
---> Entrepreneur: Develop the business mechanics and grow it.


Most of the companies are in the second and third layers of this process that promotes wealth and economic development. But, invent in an isolated form does not reach the point where the process unleash the economic potential and value for the society.

[Nixietube]

their design was taken from braun and their hardware is just bought from others and their system is unix based and the tablet was made by microsoft in 2001.

[ideus]

their design was taken from braun and their hardware is just bought from others and their system is unix based and the tablet was made by microsoft in 2001.

Right, a winner combination of already available items that no one else did, but Apple, that's innovation.

[Findecanor]

Apple repackages their inventions as well as other people's inventions and sells them.  This is obvious. 

To be fair, Apple has come up with small technical details that has made the big inventions work in a context outside the research lab. From a certain point of view, you could call these small details "inventions".

[tbc]

are you referring to something specific?

i've always been of the opinion that apple has the best battery life in consumer electronics, but they only contribute to the software part of that.  They ASK for specific optimizations, but they didn't exactly have their own fabs and chip engineers to make the actual hardware.

how this plays to is that apple supporters say that 'asking' means that they came up with the idea, so apple is now an inventor.  however, they didn't do the actual ENGINEERING work of tooling a fab and reworking circuits.

so, is invention the 'original' idea or the engineering to make it real?  not talking about legal definitions btw.

[jacobolus]

i've always been of the opinion that apple has the best battery life in consumer electronics, but they only contribute to the software part of that.  They ASK for specific optimizations, but they didn't exactly have their own fabs and chip engineers to make the actual hardware.

They actually have a big team (several hundred? thousands?) of chip engineers working on custom designs (for instance, from acquiring PA Semi and several other chip design firms). You’re right that they collaborate with other companies to actually fab the chips though.

[davkol]

Who *does* invent anything in ICT anyways? interesting interview with John Graham-Cumming, part about Return of the Jedi

[tbc]

i've always been of the opinion that apple has the best battery life in consumer electronics, but they only contribute to the software part of that.  They ASK for specific optimizations, but they didn't exactly have their own fabs and chip engineers to make the actual hardware.

They actually have a big team (several hundred? thousands?) of chip engineers working on custom designs (for instance, from acquiring PA Semi and several other chip design firms). You’re right that they collaborate with other companies to actually fab the chips though.

to be specific, i'm talking about the iphone 4 era where they had intrinsity doing their optimization work for their cpu.

did they actually manage to keep any head chip designers from pa though? i just kept reading resignation after resignation.

[jacobolus]

For example, talking about some of their recent chip design work:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7910/apples-cyclone-microarchitecture-detailed

[ideus]

For example, talking about some of their recent chip design work:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7910/apples-cyclone-microarchitecture-detailed

That is very interesting. With all the excess of cash they have now, it is very easy for them to pay for good scientist and even have them to work in technological developments beyond the PC / electronics businesses. All it takes is some creativity and open mind attitude at the top of the company. They already have the resources.

[boradori007]

yes they did, apple fanbois

[ideus]

Fanbois is actually an innovation. Apple was the first computer company that developed its very own followers club. A captive audience of ferocious and ardent defenders of the company an its products. I'd love to have that for my own enterprises.

[davkol]

Yup.