Author Topic: Vendor/User Feedback System  (Read 31456 times)

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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Vendor/User Feedback System
« on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 14:20:25 »
Edit: This thread was split from this feedback thread, as the discussion exceeded the scope of the initial thread.  Please continue relevant discussion here.  :thumb:



I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

Is there a list of people to avoid buying/selling to here?

If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't trust too many people.

I don't wish to speak out publicly against people, but ask around and people will say a lot more in private.

I know before, witch hunting (or even shaming) is not allowed on GH. There are many people who are getting away with it. (because there's no Report a Scammer section) or anything.

I still don’t understand why GH don’t stickied a list of people who had scammed before. That would surely helped new and old people a lot more. Now I had to be wary of even vendor status, sigh.

Agreed, I just don't think GH can maintain a policy of "hands-off" with scamming. I'm not saying they need to like take responsibility for anything, but as you said, maybe a little list of people who are agreed upon as scammers by multiple accounts would be nice.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:55:55 by HoffmanMyster »

Offline digi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:28:32 »
I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Offline romevi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:33:24 »
I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

We should have sad thumbs.

Offline digi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:34:57 »
I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

We should have sad thumbs.

You keep your witchcraft to yourself.... pal. :)

Offline romevi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:36:44 »
I am personally a fan of having a good feedback system of some sort.  The No Shaming rule was implemented before I became a mod, and any proposed changes were overruled.  I don't know if we will be successful in implementing something of this sort, but again, I am in favor of it. 

There are a lot of rumors/hearsay that end up floating around behind closed doors anyway, and not everyone is privy to information, and maybe it's not even good info - a public thread(s) to discuss would help, IMO.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Every forum I'm on (outside of GH) has a Feedback thread, makes it easy to search the username before you do a transaction.

If GH is going to keep a Classifieds section, it only makes sense to add a Feedback thread.

These are happy thumbs:

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

We should have sad thumbs.

You keep your witchcraft to yourself.... pal. :)


Offline digi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:39:49 »

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 17:51:23 »
Show Image


This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.
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Offline inanis

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:04:21 »
Show Image


This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.
I agree with everything in this post.
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Offline digi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:05:59 »
Show Image


This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+2

Side note: Livingspeedbump is THE fastest shipper I've bought from btw

actions > words

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:11:36 »
Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

(This is getting a bit out of scope for this thread, so I apologize for the derail, but I think this is a good discussion)

One issue I see with the above proposal is how to enforce it.  I can no more easily force an organizer to post an update than I can force them to post a package.  And previous group buys are already taken into consideration before allowing an organizer to begin a new buy, so if they are lacking updates we are (ideally) already taking that into consideration - the caveat being that we can't read every single post of every thread, so we have imperfect information.  But the point still stands that even if we do implement such a rule, how do we enforce it?  What do we do if there is not a post every week?  Shutting down the buy at that point doesn't help anything.  :|

All that said, I do agree with your other points.  :thumb:

Offline romevi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:17:43 »
Show Image


This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+2

Side note: Livingspeedbump is THE fastest shipper I've bought from btw

actions > words

+3

Unless you run into an unforeseen incident, running and helping a GB means you'll have to prepare all the snags regular life may get cause. Family, jobs, etc shouldn't be an extreme excuse because they are constant and should already be considered when prepping for the GB. Something like sudden illness is completely understandable.
If the GB really takes a toll then finish it as quickly as possible and don't run another one until you are ready. Or, if possible, hand it off to someone else.

I have a family. I have a job. I know how much work running a side business can be so that's why I quit it. If I'm behind on an eBay sale I'll contact the person to let them know and try and work something out.

Anyway, those are my menial words.

I like the weekly updates, but I can see some GB runners getting into the habit of posting “no new updates" or something, and then using it as an excuse.
But I guess we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

Offline romevi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:19:51 »
Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

(This is getting a bit out of scope for this thread, so I apologize for the derail, but I think this is a good discussion)

One issue I see with the above proposal is how to enforce it.  I can no more easily force an organizer to post an update than I can force them to post a package.  And previous group buys are already taken into consideration before allowing an organizer to begin a new buy, so if they are lacking updates we are (ideally) already taking that into consideration - the caveat being that we can't read every single post of every thread, so we have imperfect information.  But the point still stands that even if we do implement such a rule, how do we enforce it?  What do we do if there is not a post every week?  Shutting down the buy at that point doesn't help anything.  :|

All that said, I do agree with your other points.  :thumb:

Yeah, it seems a new thread is needed for this.

GH wasn't created to run GBs. Having the forum platform obviously isn't the best solution, so obviously a new platform is needed for GBs.
But I have no idea what or how to create one.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:21:50 »

+2

Side note: Livingspeedbump is THE fastest shipper I've bought from btw

actions > words

I feel mortally obligated to someone when I owe them money/goods though. This is part of the reason I DONT personally run GB's. They would be too much stress for me, and I know I would just shut down if things went wrong on my end. It is an understandable response, nobody likes letting others down, but I never take anything with money involved lightly.

This is also why I really get a bit annoyed when people sidestep criticism with the "im not a business" line. Either A) charge for your time and become a business or B) make it abundantly clear with constant updates what is holding you up or that you plan on shipping taking months to accomplish if things don't go as planned. Running these group buys take a TON of work and logistics, and while we are all grateful for the time people put into them, a certain level of accountability is needed.

Honesty, transparency, and communication on the vendors end are the real keys I think.
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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 18:26:08 »

I like the weekly updates, but I can see some GB runners getting into the habit of posting “no new updates" or something, and then using it as an excuse.
But I guess we'll cross that bridge if and when we get there.

Yeah, that could definitely happen. But I think many go MIA and don't show face at all on the forums for far too long. At least they would have to show face and deal with what people are saying, and hopefully answer questions people have for them. I mean if a vendor said "no new updates" after a week of people asking "hey tried to get up with you via PM and heard nothing, was wondering why the item hasnt shipped yet?" on their forum, that would obviously be a reflection of how they run their buys, and hopefully lead people away from every buying from them again.

Obviously buyers are always at risk here, and while I absolutely think GB leaders are responsible for delivering the products, I would also always encourage buyers never to spend any amount of $$ in a buy that they couldn't afford to downright lose, because that is always a possibility in these, from any vendor.
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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 19:47:21 »
nice to see the new discussion! thanks hoff  :thumb:
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Offline swimmingbird

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 21:42:17 »

I feel mortally obligated to someone when I owe them money/goods though. This is part of the reason I DONT personally run GB's. They would be too much stress for me, and I know I would just shut down if things went wrong on my end. It is an understandable response, nobody likes letting others down, but I never take anything with money involved lightly.


I feel exactly the same way

Offline Zeal

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 21:47:30 »
Show Image


This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+1

Maybe we can incorporate something that includes: shipping speed once order is placed, communication, (email/PM reply times?), etc.



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Offline digi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 21:51:28 »
We're movin' in the right direction fellas!



Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 04 December 2015, 22:07:00 »
Show Image


This thread brings up some interesting things though. I mean, it definitely seems like Seth is behind. But there are a lot of vendors that are much further behind, and hardly give updates either or do an update with some promise that isn't kept. In some other vending threads people seem totally fine with how long things take, even encourage the vendors to take all the time they want. Like here, I often feel like some displeased people are often afraid to speak up as well, which if done correctly shouldn't be looked down upon. There definitely isnt a consistent level of judgement or accountability by the users for all the vendors, its quite uneven honestly.

I know that each form of feedback system has its issues, and cant be abused as well. Obviously the thing to avoid is people hating a vendor, and just downvoting everything. Votes should probably be annon. and limited to 1 for each buy. Finding a way to let each buyer leave a 1-10 rating on different aspects of the buy (quality, product came as described, overall experience, whatever) without any additional text, and showing the results somewhere on the vendors page would be nice.

Also, I don't think it would be bad to add something like "at least one update is needed per week for running buys" would be good. A lot of the issue with these buys is not that vendors are being malicious, its the silence and lack of updates that really makes people upset. I know some vendors aren't businesses, but I also think a certain amount of responsibility comes when you take someones money, period. So I think making vendors keep updating on sales while they are active seems very fair, its not like once a week is hard at all.

+1

Maybe we can incorporate something that includes: shipping speed once order is placed, communication, (email/PM reply times?), etc.

All great ideas i think! Not only will this help the community show who is bad with communication/shipping out on time, but it will also really show who is great at those as well. I definitely want this to also give credit where credit is due for people that really push themselves to get items out in a timely manner.
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Offline prava

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 09:17:29 »

(This is getting a bit out of scope for this thread, so I apologize for the derail, but I think this is a good discussion)

One issue I see with the above proposal is how to enforce it.  I can no more easily force an organizer to post an update than I can force them to post a package.  And previous group buys are already taken into consideration before allowing an organizer to begin a new buy, so if they are lacking updates we are (ideally) already taking that into consideration - the caveat being that we can't read every single post of every thread, so we have imperfect information.  But the point still stands that even if we do implement such a rule, how do we enforce it?  What do we do if there is not a post every week?  Shutting down the buy at that point doesn't help anything.  :|

All that said, I do agree with your other points.  :thumb:

Hi!

I'm not exactly a power user here, but I have done my fair share of buying (not selling, 'cause shipping from my little island is too expensive for EU, and too complicated, so I only sell to spaniards), both from users/vendors and from GB's. So far I'm very happy with every single transaction.

Still, GH needs to evolve, needs to get better. The rule "caveat emptor" makes absolutely no sense at all, as it only allows scammers to do whatever they want, without consequence, without ever being liable. At the same time I'm not saying that people should be free to shame others... nope, that will not work either. But you can't ask people to find their way without having a system in place that accounts for something. So, caveat emptor without a transaction registry makes no sense. And only protects scammers.

In my experience, as a former moderator of one of the most prestigious buying/selling computer-related forums in Spain (for starters, its invite-only), with a transaction success of well over 99,9% (not a made up statistic, since transaction registry is open for all registered users), transparency is the key to everything, and transparency is something I have always felt a bit lacking in GH.
In said forum we do have a Hall of Fame (HOF). Such Hall of Fame contains every transaction every member has ever done in the forum, and those are added by the other party of said transaction. So, the seller votes the buyer, and the other way around. Votes are either positive, neutral or negative, and contain a link to the buy or sell thread (and those threads can't be removed, its required that the OP never modifies them, not even the price of the products announced. We do it like this for future reference and accountability), a brief name of the product, and a brief commentary of the transaction. This HOF isn't even a subforum or something like that... its the spine of the whole community. An added layer on top of the forum, something that every registered user can get into and look as far as 2005 (and not more because between server migrations and other somethings were lost forever). In total, the HOF has almost 100.000 registered votes (so, 50.000 recorded transactions).

How did the staff deal with it all? Well, the rules are very very strongly enforced. IE we are transparent until we aren't, and not complying gets you banned very quickly, and we operated like this.

a) If there is a problem with a transaction or user: You can't post about it. You have to contact the staff first. Of course... since the staff is formed by around 5 members sometimes such pm's regarding transaction problems weren't answered... and then a thread was created. That is an exception, and that was ok.

b) After the unhappy user contacts the staff (again, there is no shaming in the forum, so the community isn't aware of the disputes that are ongoing, they only get to see the resolution, via the votes in the HOF), the staff gets in, and decides an agreement. I know that this might be very stepping for some... but it works. Specially when the staff has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Resolutions will never get everybody completely happy, but when an impartial party decides, things tend to be better. I haven't mentioned it but the forum is not liable for anything that might happen in it, whether the staff decides upon a dispute or not. Its a free platform that users are offered at no cost, and the staff is there to help should something go wrong.

c) At the end of every transaction, the users can vote each other. Before, the staff would never ever change a vote in the HOF (mind you, you don't want a single red in your list. Its very very very bad for your image, because there are very few negative votes in the list... as users that lie or cheat are banned from the platform quickly), but we found out that some users leveraged their vote in order to gain something off of it. IE "you complained to the staff the the object you bought does not work as intended, instead of going through me. I'll downvote you". So, we decided that the staff can eliminate a vote if it was wrongfully done. IE, you can't downvote a buyer (whose job is simply to pay you asap and send you the shipping adress) simply because he rightfully voted you negative. And we punished severely those who tried to abuse the system.

All in all, the community is so fair and square that you basically can buy or sell from or to anybody (even new users have to be godfathered in... and that means some sort of accountability) without having to worry too much. But if you want to worry you can simply look at the HOF and check it out. So...I know GH can't do that. I have no idea how much work it took to create the HOF, or maintain it... but I'm just showing what other communities do, to deal with their feedback. I do know that such transparency means a lot of security, because GH is riddled with users being unhappy about some transactions... but you don't get to see that 99% of the times, because people know that shaming ain't ok and, even worse, part of the community "understands" and supports other users that take months to send a simple product. That ain't ok. The system shouldn't be protecting, let alone promoting, users that do not comply with the transactions they have agreed to. Of course it is tempting to start a GB (it is, heck you make money from those), but don't do it unless you can really do it. The staff should have their trigger fingers ready. At least hand some severe warnings so that people see that there is some accountability.

For starters, I'm fine with GH mods never stepping into problems or enforcing agreements... but this community needs some transparency, and people should be allowed to know where to look in order to see how does a certain user behave regarding transactions. IMO, a subforum that it contained a single thread per user would be fine. This way, you find the thread of the user you made a transaction with, add a post with your vote, a simple line for the product, your opinions of said transaction, and a link to the original thread. Oh, and having people not delete their threads make everything a lot easier. I still have no idea why do people recycle their threads, its very confusing to see a thread created last year that just got an item added. You start reading users interest and you are like... WTF?!

Note: the forum I mentioned has 0 ads or banners. Nothing. The users can donate if they want to do so, and can also do it to get increased pm capacity and a few other perks. But its a pro-bono community. Well, maybe the admin makes a few cents if we do not account the amount of time he dedicates to maintaining and updating the forum... but all in all, a free community.


Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 09:29:28 »
For starters, I'm fine with GH mods never stepping into problems or enforcing agreements... but this community needs some transparency, and people should be allowed to know where to look in order to see how does a certain user behave regarding transactions. IMO, a subforum that it contained a single thread per user would be fine. This way, you find the thread of the user you made a transaction with, add a post with your vote, a simple line for the product, your opinions of said transaction, and a link to the original thread. Oh, and having people not delete their threads make everything a lot easier. I still have no idea why do people recycle their threads, its very confusing to see a thread created last year that just got an item added. You start reading users interest and you are like... WTF?!

First off, thank you for this post.  You make a lot of great points, and it's valuable input.  I won't respond to each point individually due to the length, but do know that I read it all and appreciate your feedback.

As a sort of general, philosophical response, I'll just say that geekhack has never been a place intended for buying and selling things.  It has evolved to include these aspects to a higher and higher degree, but this aspect of geekhack is not the top priority for the staff - we are a keyboard information/discussion/building forum, first and foremost.  So with that in mind, any sort of system that involves heavy moderator/staff input is very unlikely to be implemented at this time.  However, there are quite a few good ideas floating around that do not cross that line, so I think some steps can be made in the right direction; it'll just be a matter of what happens and how it's implemented. 

Offline taylordcraig

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 11:32:47 »
Like I said in the other thread. SourceOP and other forums that involve trading online have a feedback thread for each user. After any transaction with that user you just reply in the thread "bought/sold ______ to said user with paypal/trade/whatever and had a positive/negative experience."

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 11:48:43 »

For starters, I'm fine with GH mods never stepping into problems or enforcing agreements... but this community needs some transparency, and people should be allowed to know where to look in order to see how does a certain user behave regarding transactions. IMO, a subforum that it contained a single thread per user would be fine. This way, you find the thread of the user you made a transaction with, add a post with your vote, a simple line for the product, your opinions of said transaction, and a link to the original thread. Oh, and having people not delete their threads make everything a lot easier. I still have no idea why do people recycle their threads, its very confusing to see a thread created last year that just got an item added. You start reading users interest and you are like... WTF?!

Note: the forum I mentioned has 0 ads or banners. Nothing. The users can donate if they want to do so, and can also do it to get increased pm capacity and a few other perks. But its a pro-bono community. Well, maybe the admin makes a few cents if we do not account the amount of time he dedicates to maintaining and updating the forum... but all in all, a free community.

Great feedback! Transparency really is lacking with some vendors/group buys for sure, and is easily my biggest complaint as well.

I also find it curious that HOF is "the spine of the community," where HOFF is the spine of our community here  ^-^

I think the main points of concern and moderation should be for GH Vendors/Artisans that have their own subforums. I say this because A) they have been recognized "officially" by GH and given those subforum pages. They also look a lot more official and "safer" to newcomers as well. Given that they have a subforum that inevitably helps with their sales and legitimacy, I think this makes sense.

Each Vendor/Artisan Subform has a feedback thread. This would not be for comments (that gets messy, arguments, people afraid to leave it, don't want to shame, etc) but a Poll/.[/li]
  • Did the items arrive in the condition promised?
  • Did the items ship on time, if not how long did it take for them to ship?
  • Did you have to contact the seller for customer support? How was their support and how long did it take to get a response?
  • Overall were you pleased with this seller?

Obviously this isn't complete, a few more questions could be added. But an anonymous poll that was stickied to the top of each vendor/artisan services would be a great place to start I think. Obviously there could be a place to comment if you wanted, but i worry that may derail as well. IDK on that one honestly, they could definitely be useful too.

The second new implementation would be having those vendors/artisans have to give at least one public update a week for any currently running buys. Yeah, some weeks may be slow without any real updates, but a "things on schedule" would even be nice to hear. One of the biggest problems I've had with people in the past is with them going radio silent in the middle of a buy. Eventually everything I've ordered for the most part, has gotten to me. I think its extremely unprofessional when a vendor won't answer PMs and won't give updates, and quite worrisome as well. I really don't think a "1 public update a week" rule is over the top by any means, especially when money is involved.

For community run GB's and classifieds I think things are a bit harder. They don't have the same "official" pages, thus shouldn't be governed by the same rules. For classifieds I don't think there is any changes really needed. Many only sell to friends or known members on there as it is. Past that it is really the buyers responsibility to check into the seller if they are anxious about the buy. If you are really that nervous to use the classifieds to sell/buy, it is probably best to use Ebay or some place where you are more protected. I personally really only sell to friends just to keep any issues from happening, and so far have had absolutely no problems at all there.
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Offline dgneo

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 05 December 2015, 11:53:03 »
What about adding trading/feedback functionality into the forum itself? I know SMF has a trading plugin that may be useful. It never hurts to have redundancy (such as a feedback thread & an actual built in feedback system).

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Offline Homenubbie

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 00:59:27 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 02:29:58 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

Offline katushkin

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 03:34:16 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 05:13:04 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

Offline katushkin

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 06:55:35 »
It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

True. I think it's probably better to have a "reasonable amount" reputation when it comes to both communication and timeframe. If the delays are out of the runners control, then communication mitigates the impact that has on the community and placates them. So timeframe doesn't really matter in 90% of GBs if the communication is good IMO.
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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 07:48:54 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

Hm, I think having an estimated timeline is always good, and usually already is given with most GB`s anyways. I think the better thing to start clarifying is how long it will take from receiving the product, to shipping that product. That is where delays really shouldn't happen. If personal stuff comes up, communicate, there are always people willing to help. People sitting on product for months, years, IS a problem.

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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 07:50:15 »
It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

True. I think it's probably better to have a "reasonable amount" reputation when it comes to both communication and timeframe. If the delays are out of the runners control, then communication mitigates the impact that has on the community and placates them. So timeframe doesn't really matter in 90% of GBs if the communication is good IMO.

Pretty much this. And ask for help! Many GB`s that were heading straight to hell were saved by other volunteers that helped get them finished.
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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 12:31:32 »
Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?
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Offline swimmingbird

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:15:02 »
Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Offline trizkut

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:20:18 »
Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.


Offline swimmingbird

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:23:01 »
Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Offline romevi

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:33:11 »
Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

Offline swimmingbird

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:37:13 »

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

Yeah I'm on the same note

I'm not sure if I can talk though because I have always had a good experience with GB runners. I think one of the reasons why more active people tend to have more positive GB experiences is because we tend to be in more GBs so were not constantly obsessing over when that one thing we ordered will get to us

I totally found that when I really got into the GBs here that I would basically forget about them after joining and put my attention into ICs for new buys and other keyboard stuff

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:37:57 »
Also, what about tighter rules about the # of active buys someone can have?

I don't really think this is necessary

Are there any recent prominent examples of people running a crap load of group buys to steal everyone's cash?

Not necessarily, but it increases the complexity/need to be organized if the buys arrive at similar times.  The delivery/completion of some of the older ctrl alt buys has been a bit messy (i'm not even sure if all of the toxic/penumbra orders have been shipped out yet), yet they are still churning out new buys.  I'm not saying I don't trust them, but I can see how people can feel uneasy about entering new buys if previous ones by the same organizer are still lagging behind.

I personally think that if we waited for every single issue to get ironed out with each group buy before running another one we would be have a much smaller number of group buys each year

Honestly, I'd rather have that than a buy that's not even completed a year or so after product was in stock.

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.
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Offline swimmingbird

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:45:08 »

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

Offline trizkut

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:49:16 »

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

It's more that most people on GH realize that most of the time these organizers are enthusiasts, like us, who are running these buys in their spare time after their regular jobs and other life commitments. 


Offline swimmingbird

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:53:10 »

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

It's more that most people on GH realize that most of the time these organizers are enthusiasts, like us, who are running these buys in their spare time after their regular jobs and other life commitments.

For this reason I don't really sympathise that much with the whingers

I do sympathise a lot though with the cases in which people have been waiting for a year more than over people to receive something - pretty much all of these people seem to not be very active on GH and miss a lot of updates to GB threads

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:55:47 »

Exactly. Less is not necessarily bad. And in the grand scheme of things people, on average, will get items a lot quicker hopefully.

Some people just arent good at knowing what they can handle, and get bogged down. It isn't cash grabs I'm worried about addressing with that suggestion, rather the cluster of having too many active group buys and the vendor getting bogged down and just dragging buys out for ages.

I think one of the biggest issues is how we think about the relationship between the GB runner and the participant

I personally think reddit tends to view GB runners as vendors or commercial entities most of the time and as such expects the same kind of service that you would expect from a business - timeliness, more immediate customer service and so on. I've noticed this a little bit when you see people raise paypal disputes with GB runners

GH generally takes a more social view of GB runners and knows that they are just people a lot of the time and that they won't make much if any money from a GB

Valid point. But i also don't think if proper customer service cant be given, if you cant fulfill orders in a reasonable time, etc then you don't need to be running group buys. Obviously they arent commercial vendors, but they DO have a responsibility to those they took money from. Sometimes I think being too casual with the buy runners can lead to more complacently than is appropriate.
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Offline meow a cat

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 17:15:24 »
I just want to chime in and say I'm all for the user feedback subforum. One separate thread for each user seems good to me.

I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if I could just search someone up to see if anyone had something to say about them.

Another idea I would get behind is mandatory HeatWare accounts, but that is harder to enforce than the subforum I'd say.

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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 17:52:14 »
I just want to chime in and say I'm all for the user feedback subforum. One separate thread for each user seems good to me.

I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if I could just search someone up to see if anyone had something to say about them.

Another idea I would get behind is mandatory HeatWare accounts, but that is harder to enforce than the subforum I'd say.

I just worry that "text" feedback, that isnt anonymous at least, will not accomplish anything. Now, people are afraid to leave bad feedback or call someone out at times, and I think avoiding that is critical to making the reviews as honest as possible. No text also means no arguments too.
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Offline Photekq

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 17:55:12 »
But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 18:05:02 »
But at the same time how would you verify that anonymous feedback is genuine, and is the result of an actual dealing and not the result of the reviewers opinion of the person in question?

Yeah, that's a big advantage to a thread. Also, if someone leaves a remark and it seems like it's missing information or is sharing misinformation, you can ask for clarification, etc.

Offline Homenubbie

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 19:18:09 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

Offline user 18

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Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 19:25:43 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

We don't create subreddits. There is however a chance that we will create a subforum :)

It's something we'll look into, particularly because there seems to be significant community interest in some sort of feedback system. However, at this point, I can't promise what such a system would look like, or how it will be implemented.
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Offline Homenubbie

  • Posts: 103
Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 19:29:17 »
Is there a list of GB leaders with 100% Products Delivered On Time Track Records?

What is "on time"?

LMAO. Maybe "In my lifetime" works?

It's a serious question though.  Timelines in Group Buys are pretty much made up, you know that.  :P  It's incredibly hard to predict the uncontrollable setbacks incurred by vendors/production, and sorting/shipping can vary a bit too.  The main gripe that people have is with lack of communication, not timelines; hence the question.  :)

Maybe a year?  Seems like a reasonable expectation even for non-professionals.

Will this Feedback subreddit be created?

We don't create subreddits. There is however a chance that we will create a subforum :)

It's something we'll look into, particularly because there seems to be significant community interest in some sort of feedback system. However, at this point, I can't promise what such a system would look like, or how it will be implemented.

I think it would help noobs like me.  Threads like this are scattered so a central place would be good:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76888.0

Offline meow a cat

  • Posts: 531
  • Location: British Columbia, Canada
  • Resistance is futile.
Re: Vendor/User Feedback System
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 07 December 2015, 19:33:39 »
I just want to chime in and say I'm all for the user feedback subforum. One separate thread for each user seems good to me.

I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if I could just search someone up to see if anyone had something to say about them.

Another idea I would get behind is mandatory HeatWare accounts, but that is harder to enforce than the subforum I'd say.

I just worry that "text" feedback, that isnt anonymous at least, will not accomplish anything. Now, people are afraid to leave bad feedback or call someone out at times, and I think avoiding that is critical to making the reviews as honest as possible. No text also means no arguments too.

Perhaps an option for anonymity could work - might not be possible with the forum software though, or might be a lot of work for the admins to implement?

But doesn't feedback go both ways? Both sides should be known, as the feedback people leave reflects back onto the integrity of the person leaving it. Hoff and Photekq both made good points about the problems with anonymous feedback. A person's reputation is serious (especially around here!  ;D ), and the feedback left should be as well - the fewer opportunities for dishonest feedback, the better. I think a person would be much more hesitant to give a seller false bad feedback if they know the seller could call them out on it, and that it could affect their reputation as well, and the other way around of course.

As for the arguing, but there's no stopping that really. It will happen in PM's or wherever else. It would be good to keep the feedback subforum drama-free at least.

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