Author Topic: Copam K-430 converter compatibility  (Read 22258 times)

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Offline Drag0nFly

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Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 07:40:07 »
Hi all!


This is my first post to the forum. After spending quite some time scouring the 'Net for information on this Copam K-430 board (which is listed as "501" on the PCB, btw.), and which erroneously also is listed as using the *XT protocol* on Deskthority, I saw that some members on here either have – or have had – this board at some point; I thought it would be useful to ask for any pointers as to how – and if – anyone got it working on a modern computer (without swapping out internal components)

Obviously, Soarer's XT/AT converter did little for this board, only providing power and making one toggle the Caps Lock LED. No scancodes are seen.

This Copam board is mentioned in https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60253.0 and https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0
where @MandrewDavis did some truly impressive work on it (way beyond my abilities at least; although I would /prefer/ to convert it to USB it would not be feasible for me)

I realize this might be a bit optimistic, but I really like the board and would love to hear any thoughts on getting it working (perhaps with alternative converters, maybe even something which can be firmware-upgraded as I notice there is work being done to reverse-engineer Soarer's original code in his absence)

Some pics of the patient-




Best Regards,

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 09:37:03 »
You like those arrow keys? I couldn't do it. Have you tried TMK? hasu has been slowly adding more and more weird protocol support to it. If your board doesn't work out of the box, you should be able to get scancodes with hid_listen that hasu could use to add support.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 11:07:48 »
Hmm, interesting. If @hasu's converter works with it, I guess it might be that the K-430 requires XT reset which is apparently required for old Type-1 IBM XTs and clones (just a guess, since Soarer's converter did not work at all)

There was a lot of info on the TMK, except where to buy one. I do obviously have Soarer's XT/AT converter, and could potentially flash new fw, but it would be nice to get one directly so as to not eff-up the one that I have. And I cannot seem to find specific info on how to flash it under Linux, which also would be required.

+1 on the arrow keys – wish they were the inverted T-shape. Also miss the delete-key. But the board is quite interesting in that I can ignore certain elements of it.

btw. is it common to have to captcha every message posted, even for registered users? I am getting the same unreadable characters on everything I attempt to post, be it PMs or messages (and the three questions)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 12:20:11 »
Hmm, interesting. If @hasu's converter works with it, I guess it might be that the K-430 requires XT reset which is apparently required for old Type-1 IBM XTs and clones (just a guess, since Soarer's converter did not work at all)

There was a lot of info on the TMK, except where to buy one. I do obviously have Soarer's XT/AT converter, and could potentially flash new fw, but it would be nice to get one directly so as to not eff-up the one that I have. And I cannot seem to find specific info on how to flash it under Linux, which also would be required.

+1 on the arrow keys – wish they were the inverted T-shape. Also miss the delete-key. But the board is quite interesting in that I can ignore certain elements of it.

btw. is it common to have to captcha every message posted, even for registered users? I am getting the same unreadable characters on everything I attempt to post, be it PMs or messages (and the three questions)

Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.

I think that either firmware could be remapped, so you could maybe make right shift an up arrow key on another layer or something, and change the existing up arrow to FN. It does have the delete key on the number pad at least. I'm quite fond of the F keys being on the left side of boards myself.

I think the captcha goes away once you've reached a certain number of posts. I forget the number.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 12:41:49 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I think that either firmware could be remapped, so you could maybe make right shift an up arrow key on another layer or something, and change the existing up arrow to FN. It does have the delete key on the number pad at least. I'm quite fond of the F keys being on the left side of boards myself.

I think the captcha goes away once you've reached a certain number of posts. I forget the number.
The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 March 2021, 12:45:03 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 13:01:57 »
Just as a side-note, before posting this I considered the "terminal" version of Soarer's converter as a possible (desperation) solution (i.e, scancode set 3), but that would probably not do much for this board either.

(btw. – sorry for the somewhat late reply. I was expecting the board to notify in the event of new replies, as I am watching the thread, but I didn't happen.)
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 March 2021, 13:05:21 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 15:10:39 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

The IBM XT itself did not use the reset line, so it is unlikely that converter has run it. I have only heard of maybe 3 or 4 boards that did and I don't own any prebuilt converters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The Deskthority wiki just says it uses the XT interface and nothing more.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I couldn't say that I blame you. I hope whoever gets it doesn't just rip the SKCM blues out of it and trash the rest.

I think that either firmware could be remapped, so you could maybe make right shift an up arrow key on another layer or something, and change the existing up arrow to FN. It does have the delete key on the number pad at least. I'm quite fond of the F keys being on the left side of boards myself.

I think the captcha goes away once you've reached a certain number of posts. I forget the number.
The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...

Matias' keyboards have what you seek.



Unfortunately, the caps aren't the best things in the world and they no longer sell their "tactile pro" (they're actually their clickies) keyboards with a Windows layout. I have found that, at least with the mini boards, this is easy to tweak with desoldering and soldering some resistors on the controller, which Matias kindly prints a diagram for right on it. I'm also a fan of LED windows in the caps.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 05:30:28 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

The IBM XT itself did not use the reset line, so it is unlikely that converter has run it. I have only heard of maybe 3 or 4 boards that did and I don't own any prebuilt converters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The Deskthority wiki just says it uses the XT interface and nothing more.
I see. Sounds like there might be a (remote) chance that it could make a difference if the K-430 did actually use it. But probably not.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I couldn't say that I blame you. I hope whoever gets it doesn't just rip the SKCM blues out of it and trash the rest.

It would be a shame for sure.

A large part of my reason to keep the board was based on the work by another member here, @MandrewDavis, done on his K-430. (In the “Keyboard of the Month” thread – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0)

The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...

Matias' keyboards have what you seek.

Show Image


Unfortunately, the caps aren't the best things in the world and they no longer sell their "tactile pro" (they're actually their clickies) keyboards with a Windows layout. I have found that, at least with the mini boards, this is easy to tweak with desoldering and soldering some resistors on the controller, which Matias kindly prints a diagram for right on it. I'm also a fan of LED windows in the caps.

Their "Tactile Pro" board is one I actually had been looking at earlier; but not too big a fan of the caps on those either.
We'll see how this turns out.

Maybe if I'm stubborn I decide to do something about the Copam after all... (maybe not a drop-in replacement for a converter but something not as time-consuming)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 07 March 2021, 02:53:40 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

The IBM XT itself did not use the reset line, so it is unlikely that converter has run it. I have only heard of maybe 3 or 4 boards that did and I don't own any prebuilt converters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The Deskthority wiki just says it uses the XT interface and nothing more.
I see. Sounds like there might be a (remote) chance that it could make a difference if the K-430 did actually use it. But probably not.

If you worked with hasu in his TMK thread, I'm sure he could get it working.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I couldn't say that I blame you. I hope whoever gets it doesn't just rip the SKCM blues out of it and trash the rest.

It would be a shame for sure.

A large part of my reason to keep the board was based on the work by another member here, @MandrewDavis, done on his K-430. (In the “Keyboard of the Month” thread – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0)

You could ask him if he's got a PCB file for it and see about having one made.

The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...

Matias' keyboards have what you seek.

Show Image


Unfortunately, the caps aren't the best things in the world and they no longer sell their "tactile pro" (they're actually their clickies) keyboards with a Windows layout. I have found that, at least with the mini boards, this is easy to tweak with desoldering and soldering some resistors on the controller, which Matias kindly prints a diagram for right on it. I'm also a fan of LED windows in the caps.

Their "Tactile Pro" board is one I actually had been looking at earlier; but not too big a fan of the caps on those either.
We'll see how this turns out.

Maybe if I'm stubborn I decide to do something about the Copam after all... (maybe not a drop-in replacement for a converter but something not as time-consuming)

Good luck. I hope you get it working.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 10 March 2021, 08:38:05 »

I see. Sounds like there might be a (remote) chance that it could make a difference if the K-430 did actually use it. But probably not.

If you worked with hasu in his TMK thread, I'm sure he could get it working.

It would be a shame for sure.

A large part of my reason to keep the board was based on the work by another member here, @MandrewDavis, done on his K-430. (In the “Keyboard of the Month” thread – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0)

You could ask him if he's got a PCB file for it and see about having one made.

Their "Tactile Pro" board is one I actually had been looking at earlier; but not too big a fan of the caps on those either.
We'll see how this turns out.

Maybe if I'm stubborn I decide to do something about the Copam after all... (maybe not a drop-in replacement for a converter but something not as time-consuming)

Good luck. I hope you get it working.

All good suggestions. I'll see if I can get a TMK converter working with it first. Thanks for your input.  :thumb:

(Seems it was impossible for the board to notify on new replies btw. I enabled "For topics and boards I've requested notification on, notify me: immediately", but still no notification is sent.)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 10 March 2021, 09:44:35 »
All good suggestions. I'll see if I can get a TMK converter working with it first. Thanks for your input.  :thumb:

(Seems it was impossible for the board to notify on new replies btw. I enabled "For topics and boards I've requested notification on, notify me: immediately", but still no notification is sent.)


Best of luck to you, again. I really need to break out my Z-150 again and see if hasu needs more testing with that as well. A lot of these weird old boards were unusable otherwise without a total rewire with a Teensy. We should try to get as many ancient boards working with TMK as possible.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 13:42:37 »
Since the XT reset line seems to normally not be wired up, I assume there are some adverse affects if it is wired?
Yes, reset line is critical for some XT keyboards and they don't work without reset line.
If your keyboad has reset line you will need its support on converter probably.

EDIT:  I didn't know meaning of the word "adverse" and I think I read it in wrong way.
Your are right. I believe reset line support doesn't affect because most of keyboards don't have it.
The rest of XT and all of AT keyobards don't have reset line virtually, as the first post says at "Reset pin".
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103648.0
Also check this.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/IBM-PC-XT-Keyboard-Protocol#keyboard-hard-reset
Hi hasu –

Yes – sorry, I should perhaps have written “assuming no negative effects of having the reset line wired”. If so is the case, which it sounds
like from what you write above, it would be best to have it wired up on the adapter.

I am not sure if the keyboard actually has a reset line (not sure how to verify), only that no activity is seen when using my Soarer converter with it (it behaves the same as when hooked up to an AT-keyboard computer – i.e, only the Caps Lock can be toggled and no activity from the keyboard is seen. Same behaviour also under Linux with the Soarer). I did verify with the person who wired the converter that the XT reset line was not wired on it (and I did not want to open the adapter to re-wire as the adapter came "crimped", not sure if it's the same for your TMKs)

Sounds like the best option would be to get your DIN-5 converter:

IBMPC   AT, XT, PS/2*   DIN-5(180°)   $36   Use adapter cable for PS/2

And then maybe test a newer firmware if the board still is not recognized.

This is again assuming that the adapter can be shipped (to Norway) with current c19 restrictions. I am also considering getting your Sun adapter as well.

I found your thread for the Copam keyboard and subscribe it. You can post further info/question there instead of this thread.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111510.0
Sure, no problem. Thanks for subscribing to it. :)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 22:04:02 »
I think you can ask vendor of the converter whether it has reset line support to make sure.

To know whether the keyboard needs reset line support:
Post pic of bottom side of the keyboard PCB especially around U2 chip  so that we can find reset line perhaps.

As Maledicted already refered you can get debug prints with hid_listen, it would be helpful to know what happens on the converter.
Also post output of hid_listen to share if possible.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 07:47:53 »
I have asked, the converter does not have a reset line wired on it.

I'll take a closer look at the PCB to see if I can get some more information, and see if hid_listen reveals anything.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 March 2021, 07:50:53 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 14:36:38 »
Hi hasu,

Output of “hid_listen” (not much sadly)


sudo hid_listen
Waiting for device:...
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT


I tried all keys, nothing is shown on the hid side. Also toggled the Ctrl+Num & Scroll locks (LEDs register), but also nothing on the OS side.

Pictures of the U2 chip. I included both the upper side and the bottom of the PCB.





Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 14:50:15 »
Also tried my second Soarer converter with a PS/2 plug and an AT/XT to PS/2 adapter, same result.

I noticed something interesting though - right after the board powered on the first time, all three LEDs could be toggled on/off without issue (first one being the Caps Lock, the second the Num Lock and third Scroll Lock).

However, after a while (around a minute) Scroll Lock turns off and cannot easily be toggled back. That is, upon repeated tries it might register briefly. So apparently the keyboard goes into some kind of state preventing this. The curious thing of course is that no scancodes are seen either time (after the 'initialization' / ~1min or right after the board is plugged in. Not sure if any of this helps (probably not) but thought I'd include it...

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 19:16:41 »
 Thanks for posting pics.
I guess the keyboard needs reset line support anyway.
But pic of whole the pcb and part surrounded with red line would be helpful to make sure.

The debug output shows the converter recognizes nothing from the keyboard.
These are likely reasons I would suspect:
1) Microcontroller U2 can not start properly without reset line.
2) Failure in keyboard hardware or connection between keyboard and converter(cable?)


Quote
Also tried my second Soarer converter with a PS/2 plug and an AT/XT to PS/2 adapter, same result.
It makes sense totally.
PS/2 converter doesn't reset line support and most of AT-PS/2 adapter cable in the market doesn't use reset line as well.

I would think unstable state of the microcontroller may cause behaviour of LEDs like that.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 19:59:29 »
Thanks for posting pics.
I guess the keyboard needs reset line support anyway.
But pic of whole the pcb and part surrounded with red line would be helpful to make sure.

The debug output shows the converter recognizes nothing from the keyboard.
These are likely reasons I would suspect:
1) Microcontroller U2 can not start properly without reset line.
2) Failure in keyboard hardware or connection between keyboard and converter(cable?)
Sounds quite plausible what you write.
I guess there is a chance of hardware issues. I know however of other members on the forum (such as @MandrewDavis) who reported that he could not get it to work either.

I am including some more pictures below. The first one is the leftmost one from your red outline (seen from the top). So the first two (and perhaps parts of the third) should be the most relevant.
(I included basically the whole length of the board.)






Quote
Also tried my second Soarer converter with a PS/2 plug and an AT/XT to PS/2 adapter, same result.
It makes sense totally.
PS/2 converter doesn't reset line support and most of AT-PS/2 adapter cable in the market doesn't use reset line as well.

I would think unstable state of the microcontroller may cause behaviour of LEDs like that.

The microcontroller would probably be in an unstable state, yes. When this occurs it goes back to "normal" after the board has been powered off for a while (all LEDs can then be toggled)
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 March 2021, 20:59:33 by Drag0nFly »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 23:13:02 »
From the pics the keyboard doesn't use reset line of connector and appears to have reset circuit itself(C1 and D1).

The keyboard doens't appear to need reset line support on converter. It may be just brorken.

Not sure but one of leads of C6 looks to me broken off, btw.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 17 March 2021, 08:21:56 »
That sounds like very sad news indeed. :( I was hoping to get the board up and running.

Since MandrewDavis had similar issues with his NIB K-430 (nothing registered on the Soarer), I assumed this was specific to this board.

I can take a closer look at what you mention about C6.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 17 March 2021, 09:05:44 »
Took some more pics of the area around C6, top and bottom, and also a closeup of the connector pads.




Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 01:53:04 »
C6 looks good on the pic.
I mistook shodow or something on previous pic.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 06:11:22 »
That is what I thought as well :) I know the camera doesn't always give good closeups which is why I took a few more.

I also sent a message to @MandrewDavis in order to see if he learned anything from hid_listen (or from somewhere else) with his NOS K-430 board which didn't register scancodes, as clearly there is something which prevents it from talking at all. Perhaps the protocol is closer to a terminal board (scan code set 3). I'm just guessing at this point.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 20 March 2021, 08:31:31 »
@hasu – are you saying it would be of no use trying your TMK adapter with this board? I notice that support for several weird protocols have been added to your firmware based on what @Maledicted states above. I guess Soarer's software is now almost 10 years old, and should be more limited in functionality.

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 21 March 2021, 00:45:29 »
The keyboard is likey to have something wrong somewhere assuming your converter is healthy and we didn't miss something.

You should see errors like 'R05' or 'R06' on debug output of hid_listen at least if the keyboard spits out something on signal lines. No erorr means keyboard or converter hardware have defect in most cases. You would want to check the keyboard hardware with multimeter.

That being said, it is still worth trying TMK converter, you may find something useful to debug if we missed something here.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 07:35:00 »
@hasu - thanks, I see. I haven't gotten a reply from the other member of the board who did work on his K-430 (@MandrewDavis), so I assume he is busy.
I can take a closer look on it myself, but unfortunately do not have access to a multimeter in these covid-times, so I'm not sure what I'll find.

I did apply DeOxit on the PCB (I usually do on older boards), but appears to not have had much effect.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 March 2021, 15:55:11 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 14 April 2021, 11:23:02 »
@hasu – I've decided to get one or two of your TMK adapters regardless, since they should be better wrt. upgrading and future compatibility.

How should I proceed if I order from you (assume a PM with the details, and payment via PayPal, etc.?)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 14 April 2021, 19:45:36 »
Hi,
Check the first post and email me. You may want 'IBMPC for AT/XT' converter for this.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72052.0

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:29:38 »
I just bought one of these keyboards as well, and wouldnt mind buying a converter and trying to get it to work as well. Any help would be appreciated

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:45:32 »
@latemodel24 – do you have a Soarer converter you can try with it? (It will not work, but to compare what hid_listen sees with what I got on my end)

I have recently sent an order to @hasu for his XT/AT DIN-5 TMK converter. He has noted that it is probably a fault with my board as well, since no activity was seen by hid_listen, but I decided to get one anyway (actually two, as I have a Sun keyboard as well.)

The K-430 is IMO a quite unique board. Only drawback would be the arrow-keys.

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:46:50 »
I do have a xt/at sorarers converter from orihalcon

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:48:10 »
Nice. Let me know what you get from hid_listen when trying it. It will also help @hasu wrt. adding support for the Copam.

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 13:26:27 »
How do I find out what hid_listeb is saying

Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 13:42:25 »
How do I find out what hid_listeb is saying

If I recall, there should be a repository where Soarer left a list to translate the codes to keys. I don’t exactly remember where I got it, I just know I have an html link to it.
Nice.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 14:21:02 »

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 10:58:51 »
I am getting nothing from hid_listen either

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 11:05:18 »
I take that back, when I plug my model f xt into hid listen, and unplug it and plug the k-430 in the k-430 sends scan codes but it does not work anywhere else, the lock light do work though

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 11:41:25 »
Interesting. Maybe the model F intermittently sets it into 'proper' XT mode, as the Copam appears to do some kind of initialization when on its own.
I only had AT proto keyboards to test with; so I could not reproduce the behaviour.

The lock lights on mine work fine also. They do however seem to be affected by the “initalization procedure” (not sure if it is an accurate description, hence the quotes), as the Scroll Lock tends to stop responding after a while, and comes back on after powercycling the board (replugging after leaving it off for 1-2 mins)

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:20:21 »
I just tried it again, and it sends scan codes as soon as I plug it in currently. It still does not work anywhere else, but in hid listen it works and every key sends scancodes. The lock lights also work fine.
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:23:07 by latemodel24 »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:23:53 »
But on your first attempt with the K-430 plugged into the Soarer there were no scancodes seen, correct? Would be interesting to see if it behaves the same after the Soarer and the board have been unplugged for a while.

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:47:24 »
That is correct

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 15:39:22 »
I left it unplugged for a good while and it still picks it up consistently.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 16:10:22 »
You mean you disconnected the K-430 from the adapter for a good while, or both the Soarer and the K-430?

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 18:53:14 »
Both

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 19:21:24 »
That is interesting – now I am wishing I had an XT keyboard to test with as well before hooking up the K-430.  :thumb:

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 12:41:45 »
That is interesting – now I am wishing I had an XT keyboard to test with as well before hooking up the K-430.  :thumb:

AT/XT switchable boards can be had cheaply on Ebay, although they may not all follow the XT protocol to a t. I wish F XTs were still relatively cheap.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 22 April 2021, 13:17:20 »
Thanks for the suggestion @Maledicted. I've come to the conclusion that almost everything is over-priced at eBay currently though, but will take a second look. (After their recent changes I am also one of those who automatically incurs high import+VAT costs when ordering from them, so I mainly prefer private sellers due to this.)

It would be nice to see keycodes being registered from the Copam, although this certainly is only part of the solution and appears to be caused by either the adapter or the board being set into a different mode after first successfully communicating with a proper XT-proto board.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 14:15:12 »
@hasu – I received your AT/XT adapter this week and tested it just now. (Not tested the Sun yet.)

The curious thing is that nothing gets printed when the keyboard is hooked up using "hid_listen" - just endlessly "Waiting for device.."
LEDs light up as usual, so the board has power to it.

Switched the adapter with my previous Soarer AT/XT, and it prints the same identification string as before –

Code: [Select]
id_listen
Waiting for device:...
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT

The host also registers this as a new keyboard device with the Soarer (currently testing on OSX). When switching back to the TMK adapter nothing is registered, although it does get power over USB.

Thinking this was a Copam issue I tested again with an existing, known-good AT keyboard - same result. Switched back to the Soarer, it identifies it correctly and keys are registered and the keyboard is useable.

Am I doing something wrong? To me it almost appears like there is no firmware programmed on the unit(?)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 15:26:49 »
Can you try other USB port, other USB cable and windows computer if possible?

I believe it was shipped with default firmware flashed.

But you can download default fimware here.
http://www.tmk-kbd.com/tmk_keyboard/editor/unimap/?ibmpc_usb_32u4

And see this for how to flash.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki#flash-firmware


With TMK IBMPC converter firmware it should show  debug output like below.

Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:......
Listening:


TMK:e473e8ce/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I764 wFF A1801
ERR:11 ISR:0000 X2302

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 18:42:38 »
Holy crap - that was weird. :eek: Sorry about that @hasu.

After trying *four micro-USB cables* (including /two/ that I regularly use to sync data from my Sony Xperia phone), the adapters register with the last cable I tried, which interestingly enough was the _Logitech K800 recharger cable_ (i.e, not intended for use with data signals, only to charge a wireless keyboard!)

Also tried the Sun adapter: it works perfectly. Nice to be able to use such a "non-PC" keyboard on newer PCs. :-) (I first thought it had the same issue as only Caps Lock, Num Lock, etc. registered with hid_listen. That is until I tried it on the machine directly under X (I monitored hid_listen earlier in a terminal window over ssh). So in short it also works properly with the Logitech cable.

But anyway – on to the topic at hand. This is what is registered with the Copam K-430 plugged in:

Code: [Select]
sudo hid_listen
Waiting for device:..........................
Listening:


TMK:e473e8ce/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I174 wFF A1212
ERR:11 ISR:0000 X1713

Obviously I did not expect it to just magically work. Not sure if those error codes mean anything to you. The Num Lock LED and the Caps Lock LED can be toggled (as with the Soarer). No other keys register.

I still haven't obtained an XT board that I could test together with this K-430 to replicate the behavior seen by @latemodel24 (who reported that his K-430 initially output no scancodes with hid_listen *until an XT board was plugged in*, and the K-430 plugged back, in which case scancodes were seen in hid_listen)

I can do some more testing on this tomorrow, but I am still a little flabbergasted about the micro-USB cable issue (affecting several cables which I know worked on their own, at least against my phone) :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 May 2021, 21:04:10 by Drag0nFly »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #50 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 21:57:31 »
I believe the converters is not picky and just need a decent USB cable.
The cables will work for the converters if they can be used for the phone or other devices normally.
I guess the cause is not only the cables perhaps, USB  port, power supply, OS ...

The debug log indicates the K-430 doesn't send anything unfortunately.
With replugging the keyboard several times at various speed you can emulate the latemodel24's procedure somehow, perhaps.
I guess specific power cycles timing may casues something, but I can't find reasonable factor there so far.

Also, try this old firmware for XT support only, it may show different info on hid_listen.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/6b71d88150f143b767b6ede7bd9008332d8ae181/converter/xt_usb/binary/xt_usb_unimap.hex



Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 10:05:03 »
Flashed the adapter successfully from the IBM PC firmware to the XT –

Code: [Select]
Pushed button on adapter to put it into firmware update mode
============================================================

martin@ciraxis ~/tmk_keyboard> sudo dmesg -T|tail
[Tue May 11 14:54:12 2021] elogind-daemon[1341]: Watching system buttons on /dev/input/event17 (t.m.k. IBM PC keyboard converter)
[Tue May 11 14:54:12 2021] elogind-daemon[1341]: Watching system buttons on /dev/input/event7 (t.m.k. IBM PC keyboard converter)
[Tue May 11 14:54:12 2021] elogind-daemon[1341]: Watching system buttons on /dev/input/event16 (t.m.k. IBM PC keyboard converter Consumer Control)
[Tue May 11 15:02:37 2021] usb 3-1.1: USB disconnect, device number 114
[Tue May 11 15:02:45 2021] usb 3-1.1: new full-speed USB device number 115 using ehci-pci
[Tue May 11 15:02:45 2021] usb 3-1.1: New USB device found, idVendor=03eb, idProduct=2ff4, bcdDevice= 0.00
[Tue May 11 15:02:45 2021] usb 3-1.1: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
[Tue May 11 15:02:45 2021] usb 3-1.1: Product: ATm32U4DFU
[Tue May 11 15:02:45 2021] usb 3-1.1: Manufacturer: ATMEL
[Tue May 11 15:02:45 2021] usb 3-1.1: SerialNumber: 1.0.0


martin@ciraxis ~/tmk_keyboard> sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u4 erase --force
Erasing flash...  Success
Checking memory from 0x0 to 0x6FFF...  Empty.
martin@ciraxis ~/tmk_keyboard> sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u4 flash xt_usb_unimap.hex
Checking memory from 0x0 to 0x68FF...  Empty.
0%                            100%  Programming 0x6900 bytes...
[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]  Success
0%                            100%  Reading 0x7000 bytes...
[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]  Success
Validating...  Success
0x6900 bytes written into 0x7000 bytes memory (93.75%).

martin@ciraxis ~/tmk_keyboard> sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u4 reset

martin@ciraxis ~/tmk_keyboard> sudo dmesg -T|tail
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] usb 3-1.1: USB disconnect, device number 115
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] usb 3-1.1: new full-speed USB device number 116 using ehci-pci
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] usb 3-1.1: New USB device found, idVendor=feed, idProduct=6512, bcdDevice= 0.01
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] usb 3-1.1: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=0
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] usb 3-1.1: Product: XT keyboard converter
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] usb 3-1.1: Manufacturer: t.m.k.
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] input: t.m.k. XT keyboard converter as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.1/3-1.1:1.0/0003:FEED:6512.00B3/input/input260
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] hid-generic 0003:FEED:6512.00B3: input,hidraw4: USB HID v1.11 Keyboard [t.m.k. XT keyboard converter] on usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.1/input0
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] input: t.m.k. XT keyboard converter as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.1/3-1.1:1.1/0003:FEED:6512.00B4/input/input261
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] hid-generic 0003:FEED:6512.00B4: input,hidraw5: USB HID v1.11 Mouse [t.m.k. XT keyboard converter] on usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.1/input1
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] input: t.m.k. XT keyboard converter System Control as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.1/3-1.1:1.2/0003:FEED:6512.00B5/input/input262
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] input: t.m.k. XT keyboard converter Consumer Control as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.1/3-1.1:1.2/0003:FEED:6512.00B5/input/input263
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] hid-generic 0003:FEED:6512.00B5: input,hidraw6: USB HID v1.11 Device [t.m.k. XT keyboard converter] on usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.1/input2
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] hid-generic 0003:FEED:6512.00B6: hiddev0,hidraw7: USB HID v1.11 Device [t.m.k. XT keyboard converter] on usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.1/input3
[Tue May 11 15:03:58 2021] input: t.m.k. XT keyboard converter as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb3/3-1/3-1.1/3-1.1:1.4/0003:FEED:6512.00B7/input/input264
[Tue May 11 15:03:59 2021] hid-generic 0003:FEED:6512.00B7: input,hidraw8: USB HID v1.11 Keyboard [t.m.k. XT keyboard converter] on usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.1/input4

There was not much information to be obtained by hid_listen though. (Man, is this the world's weirdest keyboard or what?)
I repeatedly disconnected and reconnected it to the adapter, pressed all the keys, and reconnected the adapter to USB a couple of times as well.

Code: [Select]
martin@meraxes ~ $ sudo hid_listen
Waiting for device:...................................
Listening:
Keyboard init.
[C]Keyboard start.
FF FF FF FF FF
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:..
Listening:
Keyboard init.
[C]Keyboard start.
FF FF FF FF
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:..
Listening:
Keyboard init.
[C]Keyboard start.
FF
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:.
Listening:
Keyboard init.
[C]Keyboard start.

Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:.
Listening:
Keyboard init.
[C]Keyboard start.
FF

btw. – is this the right firmware to put the adapter back into IBM AT/XT mode: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/converter/ibmpc_usb/binary/ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4.hex

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 10:53:04 »
There was not much information to be obtained by hid_listen though. (Man, is this the world's weirdest keyboard or what?)
I repeatedly disconnected and reconnected it to the adapter, pressed all the keys, and reconnected the adapter to USB a couple of times as well.

The converter receives FF, it is not normal at all.
It seems to place pulse on clock line at least, but there is nothing on data line.

The keyboard is not completely dead but has hardware failure or something? I don't have idea.


Quote
btw. – is this the right firmware to put the adapter back into IBM AT/XT mode: https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/converter/ibmpc_usb/binary/ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4.hex
Yes.


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 11:01:25 »
It appeared to have received the FF signals when the plug was disconnected + reconnected to the adapter a couple of times. Tried this in order to “trick” it into XT-mode to minic what @latmodel24 saw with his board.

btw.- still haven't gotten a reply from @MandrewDavis (the third person I know who has this board, and who was quite technically proficient). He hasn't been on the board for quite a while, but would probably have some pointers as to how this thing works.

Hoping I won't have to introduce the board to my sledgehammer, but it seems more and more tempting as time goes by...! ;)

Spent quite some time restoring it (case and keys) as well...

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 11 May 2021, 22:50:47 »
deleted
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 May 2021, 22:52:32 by latemodel24 »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 12 May 2021, 06:30:13 »
I ended up selling mine, but It was crazy that mine was doing something on hid_listen, but nobody else's was.

That I certainly can understand. Obviously one cannot rule out a malfunction with the board, but seeing that myself and the member who had a K-430 NOS (@MandrewDavis) saw identical behavior, it did at least seem weird.

I'm a little reluctant to put in on eBay but will reassess the options here. Maybe a kind soul with several Zenith boards wants to have it in his or her collection as a rarity item. ;-)

Offline svaya

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 14 May 2021, 07:00:28 »
I have the same keyboard and for me it works with an passive AT to ps2 connected to an active PS2 to USB converter.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 14 May 2021, 07:20:10 »
Interesting – which active PS/2 to USB converter are you using, @svaya?

Offline svaya

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 03 June 2021, 09:57:07 »
I tried it both with an active XT converter and a AT adapter, it only works with the AT adapter and active PS/2 converter.
I am using this generic ps2 converter
https://www.emag.ro/cablu-adaptor-usb-tata-la-2-conectori-ps2-lungime-31cm-caips2/pd/DFVGCGBBM/


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #59 on: Sat, 05 June 2021, 13:47:00 »
Thanks for the extra info @svaya. Curious that it works with a combined mouse + keyboard adapter, and not the XT.

Do you remember how the keyboard behaved when using the active XT converter and AT adapter? (On mine I could only toggle the Caps Lock & Num Lock leds, and no info on hid_listen). My K-430 could obviously have some kind of defect though, but it seems it would be useful to try to connect it with a similar adapter as yours. Perhaps I can find one in my stash of old cables/converters.

Since an active XT adapter (do you know the type, btw.?) is more advanced – it certainly appears mighty strange that an *AT-to-PS/2 passive adapter* + a *PS/2-keyboard-and-mouse-to-USB-combo* adapter works better. But then again, things are not always logical... :)

Offline svaya

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 07 June 2021, 15:37:26 »
I used a PC/XT 5DIN keyboard to USB Soarer's Keyboard Converter, it flashed a bit the lights at the beginning and I could toggle Caps and Num, but couldn't type anything. I think there is a chance that your keyboard isn't dead. The ps2 to USB was a 1.5$ dollar cheap I think the transport was more than the cost of it. The fact that it has also the mouse usually tells that is active and not passive.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 07 June 2021, 16:49:28 »
That is pretty much the exact behaviour I am seeing also with my K-430 using both the Soarer XT/AT adapter and also @hasu's TMK IBMPC adapter; I'll try to get hold of an identical PS/2+mouse to USB combo converter as yours to test – probably off of eBay.

Thanks for the valuable input. :thumb:

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 09 June 2021, 09:24:58 »
Drag0nFly,
I updated IBMPC converter firmware with some changes recently, this may show something helpful on debug output, perhaps. Try the latest firmware.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103648.msg3055384#msg3055384

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 09 June 2021, 17:25:22 »
Thanks for supplying a newer firmware @hasu. I flashed the adapter now and notice it did provide a little more output.

The first entry is from connecting the keyboard to the adapter while the USB is already connected to the computer. The subsequent two are from disconnecting and reconnecting the USB adapter with the keyboard already hooked up.

Notice that the two are different.

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:
Listening:

60195 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20
60723 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20



Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:......
Listening:


TMK:2a0471fd/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I739 A3741 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
4133 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4634






Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:...
Listening:


TMK:2a0471fd/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I427 A3428 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3820 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4321
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:...................................................................⏎

One change is that now only Caps Lock can be toggled. (Before the Num Lock was available to be toggled as well.)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 09 June 2021, 17:58:46 »
Thanks for supplying a newer firmware @hasu. I flashed the adapter now and notice it did provide a little more output.

The first entry is from connecting the keyboard to the adapter while the USB is already connected to the computer. The subsequent two are from disconnecting and reconnecting the USB adapter with the keyboard already hooked up.

Notice that the two are different.

No helpful info unfortunately. The keyboard doesn't seem to work in terms of converter.


Quote
One change is that now only Caps Lock can be toggled. (Before the Num Lock was available to be toggled as well.)

what does this mean actually?
You can press CapsLock key on the keyboard and toggle its indicator?
Or just blink LED on startup and the key doesn't anything?


Offline Drag0nFly

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 09 June 2021, 18:52:00 »

One change is that now only Caps Lock can be toggled. (Before the Num Lock was available to be toggled as well.)

what does this mean actually?
You can press CapsLock key on the keyboard and toggle its indicator?
Or just blink LED on startup and the key doesn't anything?

I can press the CapsLock key on the keyboard and toggle its indicator. On prior firmware, and with the Soarer, I could toggle both the CapsLock and NumLock LED.

Offline hasu

  • Posts: 3472
  • Location: Tokyo, Japan
  • @tmk
    • tmk keyboard firmware project
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 09 June 2021, 19:35:55 »
Interesting.
That doesn't show anything on hid_listen? If not, the keyobard itself controls the indicator internally for some reason.

Indicators on normal AT or PS/2 keyboards are controled by command(wED) from host and hid_listen shows debug output like below.
Code: [Select]
r58 wED rFA w04 rFA rF0 r58


The keyboard doesn't like startup command sequece of the firmware and stops working, perhaps. This is plain PS/2 converter firmware which doesn't issue any command at startup, this may show difference.
* ps2_usb_32u4.hex (63.76 kB - downloaded 130 times.)


Try this also. This is IBMPC converer firmware with 30sec wait before issueing commands. This shows something if the keyboard sends something. BAT code 'AA' is usually expected. Also try pressing some keys.
* ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4.hex (58.8 kB - downloaded 137 times.)

Connect keyboard with converter first and then plug into USB port when doing these tests.
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 June 2021, 19:38:36 by hasu »

Offline Drag0nFly

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 10 June 2021, 12:17:39 »

The keyboard doesn't like startup command sequece of the firmware and stops working, perhaps. This is plain PS/2 converter firmware which doesn't issue any command at startup, this may show difference.

Did not get anything from the ps/2 firmware unfortunately.
Code: [Select]
sudo hid_listen
Waiting for device:...........................................................................
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.

Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:....
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.

Device disconnected.

Try this also. This is IBMPC converer firmware with 30sec wait before issueing commands. This shows something if the keyboard sends something. BAT code 'AA' is usually expected. Also try pressing some keys.

Connect keyboard with converter first and then plug into USB port when doing these tests.

Output from the IBMPC firmware with the added 30sec delay:

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:
Listening:

Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:..................
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I449 A30451 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
30843 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X31344
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:....
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I589 A30590 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
30982 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X31483
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:...
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I613 A30615 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
31007 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X31509
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:........
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I544 A30545 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
30937 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X31439
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:.....................

btw.-I can toggle all three LEDs. They seem to be affected by which state the keyboard is in. That is, I had to powercycle it a couple of times, and they behave consistently. Especially the NumLock can get "out-of-sync". Once the proper state is restored, all can be toggled.

Curiously, if one of the LEDs were not able to be toggled before the power-cycle, they also do not light up during initialization.

And again, no output from pressing other keys, and small variations in the output after each power cycle (each with a wFF, which seems to be hid_listen's way of saying "WTF") ;)
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 June 2021, 12:20:03 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 08 August 2021, 13:05:39 »
> ¡Update! <  ;D

I finally got myself another XT keyboard (actually, one that is AT/XT switchable and which I set to XT-mode, dubbed "8088" on the keyboard (the AT mode is identified as "80286" (not accurate, but the switching works.)

In any case, the results were extremely interesting (at least to me). I first tried @hasu's TMK adapter, with the most recent IBM PC firmware.

I connected the _other_ keyboard first (set to XT-mode), then plugged in the USB. Pressed a few keys, and disconnected. The disconnect is logged as:

Code: [Select]
[OVR]
36090 ERR:F0 ISR:FFC0 !FF! rFF
[OVR]

in hid_listen.

I subsequently unplugged the DIN-connector (*leaving the USB-side connected*) and connected the Copam K-430.

Lo and behold – it not only produced codes with hid_listen, but *actual keys registered*. At least for a while, until I apparently hit too many keys, or the keyboard went into a reset state. (I thought it was the Scroll-Lock key that did this, but I am not sure.)

The output from the Copam when using @hasu's TMK adapter (again, with the IBM PC firmware, not XT-specific firmware) follows below:

Code: [Select]
[OVR]
36090 ERR:F0 ISR:FFC0 !FF! rFF
[OVR]
43926 ERR:20 ISR:C000 [RST] I43927
43927 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
44025 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20
44851 ERR:20 ISR:C000
44852 PRT:21 ISR:0000 rAA A44853 wFF rAA
44856 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 X45358 rAA W45362 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R46255
ID:FFFF(XT)
46255 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S46256 L46256 r1E r9E r1E r9E r1E r9E r1E r9E r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r11 r91 r11 r91 r11 r91 r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r11 r91 r11 r91 r03 r83 r03 r83 r04 r84 r04 r84 r05 r85 r05 r85 r05 r85 r06 r86 r06 r86 r06 r86 r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r0E
142 PRT:23 ISR:0EE0 r0E
223 PRT:22 ISR:0EC0 r0E r0E r0E r0E r0E
704 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 [RST] I705
706 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
785 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
865 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
946 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
1059 ERR:20 ISR:1D00 e20
1130 ERR:20 ISR:0F00 e20
1214 ERR:20 ISR:8E80 e20
1288 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
1455 ERR:20 ISR:8E80 e20
1555 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
2278 ERR:20 ISR:8E80 e20
2369 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
2460 ERR:20 ISR:8E80 e20
2554 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20
2738 ERR:20 ISR:8E80 e20
2888 ERR:20 ISR:1E80 e20
2960 ERR:20 ISR:9E80 e20
3051 ERR:20 ISR:1E80 e20
3112 ERR:20 ISR:9E80 e20
3212 ERR:20 ISR:1E80 e20
3386 ERR:20 ISR:9E80 e20
3527 ERR:20 ISR:1180 e20
4162 ERR:20 ISR:9180 e20
4266 ERR:20 ISR:1180 e20
4338 ERR:20 ISR:9180 e20
4428 ERR:20 ISR:1180 e20
4765 ERR:20 ISR:9180 e20
4867 ERR:20 ISR:2080 e20
4959 ERR:20 ISR:A080 e20
5059 ERR:20 ISR:2080 e20
5110 ERR:20 ISR:A080 e20
5220 ERR:20 ISR:2080 e20
5739 ERR:20 ISR:A080 e20
5830 ERR:20 ISR:2480 e20
5921 ERR:20 ISR:A480 e20
5992 ERR:20 ISR:2480 e20
6098 ERR:20 ISR:A480 e20
6108 ERR:20 ISR:2480 e20
6188 ERR:20 ISR:1F80 e20 A30706 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
31098 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X31600

The keys that registered (in my terminal) were:

Code: [Select]
aaaaqqq33444555
I also pressed some function keys and arrow keys.


After the last error messages, the Copam stopped responding. I unplugged the TMK and re-tried with my Soarer.

With the Soarer I was able to test every key on the board multiple times – they _all_ register but curiously *do not* produce key events to the OS (i.e, no actual output as was seen – although briefly – with the TMK earlier!)


Output when using the Soarer adapter follows:
=============================


Code: [Select]
r0E +2A d2A
r8E -2A u2A
r0E +2A d2A r8E -2A u2A
r0E +2A d2A
r8E -2A u2A
R05








r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r89
rC9
r89
rC9
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r82
rC2
r82
rC2
r87
rC7
r87
rC7
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
r88
rC8
r88
rC8
r88
rC8
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r89
rC9
r89
rC9
r89
rC9
r89
rC9
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r8A
rCA
r8A
rCA
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r8B
rCB
r8B
rCB R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r8B
rCB
r8B
rCB
r8B
rCB
r8B
rCB
r8E
rCE
r8E
rCE
r8E
rCE
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r8F
rCF
r8F
rCF
r8F
rCF R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05 R06 R05
r90
rD0 R06 R05
R06 R05
r91
rD1 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r91
rD1
r91
rD1
r91
rD1
r91
rD1
R06 R05
r91 R06 R05
R06 R05 rD1
r91
R06 R05
rD1
R06 R05 r91
rD1 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r92
rD2 R06 R05
R06 R05
r92
rD2 R06 R05
R06 R05 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r93
rD3
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05 r97
rD7 r96
r97 rD6
rD7
R06 R05
R06 R05 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R05 R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
r97
rD7
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
r98
rD8
r98 rD8 r98
rD8
R06 R05
R06 R05 r9A
rDA r99
rD9 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r9A R06 R06 R05
rDA R06 R06 R05 r9A R06 R06 R05
rDA R06 R06 R05
rA1
rE1
rA1
rE1
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA0
rE0
rA0
rE0
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r9F
rDF
r9F
rDF
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
r9E
rDE
r9E
rDE
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r9D
rDD
r9D
rDD
r9D
rDD
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r94
rD4
r94
rD4
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r81
rC1
r81
rC1
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r82
rC2
r82
rC2
r82
rC2
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r83
rC3
r83
rC3
r83
rC3
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r84
rC4
r84
rC4
r84
rC4
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r85
rC5
r85
rC5
r85
rC5
r85
rC5
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r95
rD5
r95
rD5
r95
rD5
r95
rD5
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA3
rE3
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
rA3
rE3
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
r9B
rDB
r9B
rDB
r9B
rDB
r9B
rDB
rA5
rE5
rA5
rE5
rA5
rE5
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA6
rE6
rA6
rE6
rA6
rE6
rA6
rE6
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA7
rE7
rA7
rE7
rA7
rE7
rA7
rE7
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
rA8
rE8
rA8
rE8
rA8
rE8
rA8
rE8
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA9
rE9
rA9
rE9
rA9
rE9
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05 rA6
rE6
rA6
rE6
rA5
rE5
rA5
rE5
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r95
rD5
r95
rD5
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r92
rD2
r92
rD2
r92
rD2
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA1
rE1
rA1
rE1
rA1
rE1
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA0
rE0
rA0
rE0
rA0
rE0
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r9F
rDF
r9F
rDF
r9F
rDF
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R06 R05
r9E
rDE
r9E
rDE
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r9D
rDD
r9D
rDD
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r94
rD4
r94
rD4
r94
rD4
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r81
rC1
r81
rC1
r81
rC1
r81
rC1
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r82
rC2
r82
rC2
r82
rC2
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r83
rC3
r83
rC3
r83
rC3
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r84
rC4
r84
rC4
r84
rC4
r84
rC4
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r85
rC5
r85
rC5
r85
rC5
r85
rC5
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r95
rD5
r95
rD5
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r80
rC0
r80
rC0
r80
rC0
r80
rC0
r80
rC0
rA2
rE2
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA2
rE2
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA2
rE2 rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA3
rE3
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA4
rE4
rA4
rE4
rA3
rE3
rA3
rE3
r9B
rDB
r9B
rDB
r9B
rDB
r9B
rDB
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA6
rE6
rA6
rE6
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA5
rE5
rA5
rE5
rA5
rE5
rA7
rE7
rA7
rE7
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA8 rE8
rA8
rE8
rA8
rE8
rA8
rE8
rA8
rE8
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
rA9
rE9
rA9
rE9
rA9
rE9
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05 rA6
rE6
rA6
rE6
rA5
rE5
rA5
rE5
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R05 R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r9A
rDA
r9A
rDA
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
rA1
rE1
rA1
rE1
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r9C
rDC
r90
rD0
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05

Again, this is me pressing every key from left-to-right about three times each, then repeating the cycle.

This worked for approx a minute (maybe two at the most), and the board goes back to registering nothing.

I thought this was quite interesting, as I have never – no matter how many times I've tried – with this Copam board to get any keys to register anything whatsoever (be it an error code or not) with hid_listen.

I will test again after leaving the board unplugged for a while. Unless it actually still has some kind of defect, it must have logic on the board to switch it into some mode where only CapsLock, ScrollLock and NumLock register (internally), and no keycodes are passed on.

Hope some of this ranting was useful, and sorry for posting in the middle of summer when people probably are on vacation. I just couldn't wait, as I've spent quite some time with this board (not just testing, but restoring as well). :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 August 2021, 13:14:13 by Drag0nFly »

Offline hasu

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  • Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #69 on: Sun, 08 August 2021, 22:35:48 »
> ¡Update! <  ;D

I finally got myself another XT keyboard (actually, one that is AT/XT switchable and which I set to XT-mode, dubbed "8088" on the keyboard (the AT mode is identified as "80286" (not accurate, but the switching works.)

I just want to confirm:
- Does the another XT keyboard work well with both Soarer's and TMK converter?
- What's model number and manufacturer of the keyboard?




Quote
In any case, the results were extremely interesting (at least to me). I first tried @hasu's TMK adapter, with the most recent IBM PC firmware.

I connected the _other_ keyboard first (set to XT-mode), then plugged in the USB. Pressed a few keys, and disconnected. The disconnect is logged as:

Code: [Select]
[OVR]
36090 ERR:F0 ISR:FFC0 !FF! rFF
[OVR]

in hid_listen.

I subsequently unplugged the DIN-connector (*leaving the USB-side connected*) and connected the Copam K-430.

Lo and behold – it not only produced codes with hid_listen, but *actual keys registered*. At least for a while, until I apparently hit too many keys, or the keyboard went into a reset state. (I thought it was the Scroll-Lock key that did this, but I am not sure.)


I can't know why plugging and unplugging the antoher XT keyboard makes different result, because TMK converter just starts new keyboard-initializing process again when a keyobard is removed and new one is plugged.

Doesn't the converter work without the another XT keyboard? Posting debug log would be helpful.


Quote
Code: [Select]
I43927
43927 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
44025 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20
44851 ERR:20 ISR:C000
44852 PRT:21 ISR:0000 rAA A44853 wFF rAA
44856 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 X45358 rAA W45362 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R46255
ID:FFFF(XT)
46255 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S46256 L46256 r1E r9E r1E r9E r1E r9E r1E r9E r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r11 r91 r11 r91 r11 r91 r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r11 r91 r11 r91 r03 r83 r03 r83 r04 r84 r04 r84 r05 r85 r05 r85 r05 r85 r06 r86 r06 r86 r06 r86 r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r0E
142 PRT:23 ISR:0EE0 r0E
223 PRT:22 ISR:0EC0 r0E r0E r0E r0E r0E
704 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 [RST] I705
706 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
785 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20

The keys that registered (in my terminal) were:

Code: [Select]
aaaaqqq33444555
I also pressed some function keys and arrow keys.
[/code]

Pressed keys in the log were recognized by the converter like below.
Code: [Select]
aaaaqqqqqwww<tab><tab><tab><tab><tab><tab><tab>qqqww2233444555<Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Backspace><Backspace><Backspace><Backspace>...

And it seems the covnerter missed one of signals of Backspace and kept out of sync after that.





Quote
After the last error messages, the Copam stopped responding. I unplugged the TMK and re-tried with my Soarer.

With the Soarer I was able to test every key on the board multiple times – they _all_ register but curiously *do not* produce key events to the OS (i.e, no actual output as was seen – although briefly – with the TMK earlier!)


Output when using the Soarer adapter follows:
=============================


Code: [Select]
r0E +2A d2A
r8E -2A u2A
r0E +2A d2A r8E -2A u2A
r0E +2A d2A
r8E -2A u2A
R05



r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r89
rC9
r89
rC9
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05

Again, this is me pressing every key from left-to-right about three times each, then repeating the cycle.


It seems Soarer's converter received a few Backspace and lost sync after that as well as TMK.
R05 and R06 indicates timeout and start bit error respectively.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/Soarer's-Converter#error-codes

Do you remember what keys you pressed actually at very beginnig of the log?

« Last Edit: Sun, 08 August 2021, 22:37:29 by hasu »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #70 on: Sun, 08 August 2021, 22:54:07 »
Also, this is the latest build of my working repository. It is not released in binary form, only source code is available.
IBMPC converter is changed largely since then, it may show different result. Try it when you have time.

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/copam_k430_test/converter/ibmpc_usb/binary/copam_44ee4f3f.hex

Offline Drag0nFly

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 07:11:49 »
> ¡Update! <  ;D

I finally got myself another XT keyboard (actually, one that is AT/XT switchable and which I set to XT-mode, dubbed "8088" on the keyboard (the AT mode is identified as "80286" (not accurate, but the switching works.)

I just want to confirm:
- Does the another XT keyboard work well with both Soarer's and TMK converter?
- What's model number and manufacturer of the keyboard?
Hi @hasu - thanks for your reply!

The other keyboard works with both Soarer and your TMK converter, yes. I tried both AT ("80216") and XT ("8088") modes.
The board is a NTC KB-6252EA (https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251#KB-6252)

btw-I notice the K-430 has an updated Wiki page on Deskthority, where it is now stated it's using the AT protocol (*NOT* XT), https://deskthority.net/wiki/Copam_K-430
AT is what is printed on the PCB on mine as well. Just to add more confusion... :)

Quote
In any case, the results were extremely interesting (at least to me). I first tried @hasu's TMK adapter, with the most recent IBM PC firmware.

I connected the _other_ keyboard first (set to XT-mode), then plugged in the USB. Pressed a few keys, and disconnected. The disconnect is logged as:

Code: [Select]
[OVR]
36090 ERR:F0 ISR:FFC0 !FF! rFF
[OVR]

in hid_listen.

I subsequently unplugged the DIN-connector (*leaving the USB-side connected*) and connected the Copam K-430.

Lo and behold – it not only produced codes with hid_listen, but *actual keys registered*. At least for a while, until I apparently hit too many keys, or the keyboard went into a reset state. (I thought it was the Scroll-Lock key that did this, but I am not sure.)


I can't know why plugging and unplugging the antoher XT keyboard makes different result, because TMK converter just starts new keyboard-initializing process again when a keyobard is removed and new one is plugged.

Doesn't the converter work without the another XT keyboard? Posting debug log would be helpful.

The Copam does not work (so far) without the other keyboard having been connected first.
Which debug log do you mean btw.? – I posted pretty much all information I had. :)


Quote
Code: [Select]
I43927
43927 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
44025 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20
44851 ERR:20 ISR:C000
44852 PRT:21 ISR:0000 rAA A44853 wFF rAA
44856 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 X45358 rAA W45362 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R46255
ID:FFFF(XT)
46255 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S46256 L46256 r1E r9E r1E r9E r1E r9E r1E r9E r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r11 r91 r11 r91 r11 r91 r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r0F r8F r10 r90 r10 r90 r10 r90 r11 r91 r11 r91 r03 r83 r03 r83 r04 r84 r04 r84 r05 r85 r05 r85 r05 r85 r06 r86 r06 r86 r06 r86 r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4B rCB r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r4C rCC r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r0E
142 PRT:23 ISR:0EE0 r0E
223 PRT:22 ISR:0EC0 r0E r0E r0E r0E r0E
704 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 [RST] I705
706 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
785 ERR:20 ISR:0E80 e20

The keys that registered (in my terminal) were:

Code: [Select]
aaaaqqq33444555
I also pressed some function keys and arrow keys.

Pressed keys in the log were recognized by the converter like below.

Code: [Select]
aaaaqqqqqwww<tab><tab><tab><tab><tab><tab><tab>qqqww2233444555<Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-4><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Keypad-5><Backspace><Backspace><Backspace><Backspace>...

And it seems the covnerter missed one of signals of Backspace and kept out of sync after that.



Quote
After the last error messages, the Copam stopped responding. I unplugged the TMK and re-tried with my Soarer.

With the Soarer I was able to test every key on the board multiple times – they _all_ register but curiously *do not* produce key events to the OS (i.e, no actual output as was seen – although briefly – with the TMK earlier!)


Output when using the Soarer adapter follows:
=============================


Code: [Select]
r0E +2A d2A
r8E -2A u2A
r0E +2A d2A r8E -2A u2A
r0E +2A d2A
r8E -2A u2A
R05



r86
rC6
r86
rC6
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
r8D
rCD
R06 R06 R05
R06 R06 R05
r89
rC9
r89
rC9
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R05
R06 R06 R05

Again, this is me pressing every key from left-to-right about three times each, then repeating the cycle.


It seems Soarer's converter received a few Backspace and lost sync after that as well as TMK.
R05 and R06 indicates timeout and start bit error respectively.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/Soarer's-Converter#error-codes

Ok – that is interesting. Almost seems as if the board is expecting some signal in return from the host-side, and gets confused if it doesn't get any.

Do you remember what keys you pressed actually at very beginnig of the log?

aaaaqqq33444555 is the sequence I saved. I am not sure which others specifically, but will make sure to record this accurately if this re-occurs. Basically I was not expecting any output from the board, since I've tested it about 50 times by now with no success until now.

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 08:25:04 »
The Copam does not work (so far) without the other keyboard having been connected first.
Which debug log do you mean btw.? – I posted pretty much all information I had. :)

I mean debug print output in hid_listen.

Offline Drag0nFly

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #73 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 08:36:39 »
AFAIKS, hid_listen does not accept any parameters–

Code: [Select]
hid_listen -h
Waiting for device:.⏎

hid_listen --help
Waiting for device:.⏎

I looked at the homepage, but cannot see any documentation for its usage. Sorry if there is something I am missing.

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #74 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:06:08 »
No, I just want you to post output of hid_listen as you did :)

Can you try two test procesures below with this firmware?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111510.msg3073560#msg3073560


Test A.
1. run 'hid_listen'
2. plug the converter only
3. plug Copam into the converter
4. wait 10 sec
5. press Q, W and E key one by one
6. press radome keys(optional)


Test B.
1. run 'hid_listen'
2. plug the converter only
3. plug another keyboard(NTC) into the converter
5. wait 10 sec
6. press Q, W and E key one by one
7. unplug the another keyboard(NTC)
8. plug Copam into the converter
9. wait 10 sec
10. press Q, W and E key one by one
11. press radome keys(optional)



Please post hid_lsiten outputs without omitting as possible.
Including this version display part would be especially helpful if there is it.

Code: [Select]
Listening:

TMK:44ee4f/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.

Offline Drag0nFly

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #75 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:12:24 »
Tried the copam_44ee4f3f.hex firmware, but there was no change from before.

I haven't been able to reproduce the behaviour I saw yesterday. The only thing I've noticed (with the working Nan-Tan keyboard) is that the TMK firmware appears to re-map the "<" key (to the right of the Left shift) as ' (tick). This only occurs when the keyboard is in XT mode. If it's in AT mode the mapping is correct.

With the Soarer, the keys are mapped correctly (i.e, < > and | §)

Apart from this, your firmware works best as the arrow-keys produce numbers on the Soarer (again, in XT mode). Just mentioning this, as there should be a quick way to fix the < > + mapping.

For the < + > (shift + <): (which outputs ' *)

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:
Listening:
r56 'rD6 r36 r36 r56 *rD6 rB6

For the | + § (which outputs < >)

Code: [Select]
r29 <rA9 r36 r29 >rA9 rB6

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #76 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:16:58 »
Test A (nothing interesting, unfortunately). I plugged the TMK in, which produced the output below. Waited 10 seconds, then pressed Q, W & E.

Code: [Select]
./hid_listen.mac
Waiting for device:.......
Listening:
A6423 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
6815 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X7316
35259 ERR:20 ISR:C000
35259 PRT:22 ISR:0000 rFF W35260 w

Offline Drag0nFly

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  • Posts: 83
Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:20:18 »
Not much luck today. Test B-

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:......
Listening:

TMK:44ee4f/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I175 A3176 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3568 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4069
17914 ERR:20 ISR:7000
34732 ERR:20 ISR:AA80
34870 ERR:20 ISR:1080
35802 ERR:20 ISR:9080
35929 ERR:20 ISR:1180
36659 ERR:20 ISR:9180
36786 ERR:20 ISR:1280
41529 ERR:20 ISR:9280



49596 ERR:20 ISR:E000


The space in the output is when the NanTan was unplugged, and the Copam re-plugged. Nothing is printed, and nothing except the Caps Lock + Num Lock keys register.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:24:07 »
btw. (and this is probably not useful), I believe when the Copam Keyboard actually output something I was able to toggle Scroll Lock. Now it does not register (only NumLock and CapsLock)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:45:38 »
Tried the copam_44ee4f3f.hex firmware, but there was no change from before.

I haven't been able to reproduce the behaviour I saw yesterday.


Can you reproduce it with previous firmware?

Hmm, the firmware was changed much since the last one, so it may work differently perhaps.





Quote
The only thing I've noticed (with the working Nan-Tan keyboard) is that the TMK firmware appears to re-map the "<" key (to the right of the Left shift) as ' (tick). This only occurs when the keyboard is in XT mode. If it's in AT mode the mapping is correct.

This is off topic and I want to focus on Copam here. Please report a bug in the IBMPC converter thread or github.

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 09:54:12 »
btw. (and this is probably not useful), I believe when the Copam Keyboard actually output something I was able to toggle Scroll Lock. Now it does not register (only NumLock and CapsLock)

Agree. The logs show errors, it means the keyboard sends signals somehow.
It seems that the LED indicators are handled by the keyboard itself,  but I'm not sure about how the keys actually behave.


Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 10:03:05 »

Not much luck today. Test B-

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:......
Listening:

TMK:44ee4f/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I175 A3176 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3568 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4069
17914 ERR:20 ISR:7000
34732 ERR:20 ISR:AA80
34870 ERR:20 ISR:1080
35802 ERR:20 ISR:9080
35929 ERR:20 ISR:1180
36659 ERR:20 ISR:9180
36786 ERR:20 ISR:1280
41529 ERR:20 ISR:9280



49596 ERR:20 ISR:E000


The space in the output is when the NanTan was unplugged, and the Copam re-plugged. Nothing is printed, and nothing except the Caps Lock + Num Lock keys register.


With the firmware NanTan keyboard didn't even register any key on computer ?


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 10:15:14 »
No, the keys were registered. I also noticed the "ERR" messages.

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 10:29:49 »
hmm, that is weird...
The converter should display something(like 'r10' for Q key for example) when it recieves a key successfully.
And the log shows the converter couldn't recognize the keyboard at all, I believe the converter don't register any key in that case.

Could you try the test again if you have time?


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 10:46:17 »
It seems hid_listen on OSX is less verbose than Linux. I'd disregard the output from it. (It was just more convenient to use, as it's where I am typing from)

I re-flashed earlier firmware from June 10th, but the behaviour is the same.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 10:49:18 »
I'll try the test again also. It will not be straight away, as I've just dismantled the Nan Tan keyboard for cleaning/restoration.
At least I might be able to verify that the Copam on its own will not work. (Although the combination of both keyboards today yielded nothing useful.)

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 09 August 2021, 11:58:26 »
(and thanks for the assistance so far @hasu – it is greatly appreciated!)  :thumb:

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #87 on: Wed, 11 August 2021, 00:49:53 »
It seems hid_listen on OSX is less verbose than Linux. I'd disregard the output from it. (It was just more convenient to use, as it's where I am typing from)

I re-flashed earlier firmware from June 10th, but the behaviour is the same.

It would be better to test on Linux or Windows if possible.
I don't have Mac and didn't test 'hid_listen'. Debug process would be very difficult if hid_listen doesn't work well on Mac.

Anyway, no rush at all. Take time for your restoration!


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 13 August 2021, 14:09:51 »
(Sorry about the OSX output, it was only for the last two tests. I'm not going to use it again, and the machine which actually captured the output from the Copam was one of my Linux systems.)

In any case; I ran a multitude of tests (around 20) today hoping that I could again re-create the behaviour. Long story short, I could not. I am including the output again, as it was incomplete last time for the "A" & "B" tests.

Test A:

Code: [Select]
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:.........
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I525 A30527 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
30919 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X31420


Test A, (switched to newer firmware, same result):

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:.....
Listening:

TMK:44ee4f/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I525 A3526 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3918 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4419


Test B: (NTC in XT/8088 mode)

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:.........
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.

500 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 I501
501 PRT:22 ISR:0000 rAA A502 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
894 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X1395 rAA W1396 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R2288
ID:FFFF(XT)
2289 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S2289 L2289 r10 r90 r11 r91 r12 r92
15703 ERR:20 ISR:C000 [RST] I15703
15704 PRT:22 ISR:0000 e20
15725 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20 A


Test B (again), after I put NTC keyboard in AT ("80286") mode


Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:..........
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I556
18294 ERR:20 ISR:C000 e20
18301 ERR:20 ISR:FF00 e20
18304 ERR:20 ISR:FC00 e20
18307 ERR:20 ISR:FF00 e20
18310 ERR:20 ISR:FE00 e20
18313 ERR:20 ISR:FE00 e20
18316 ERR:20 ISR:FF00 e20
18319 ERR:20 ISR:FC00 e20
18322 ERR:20 ISR:FC00 e20
18326 ERR:20 ISR:FE00 e20
18337 ERR:20 ISR:F800 e20
18341 ERR:20 ISR:F800 e20
18344 ERR:F0 ISR:FFC0
18345 PRT:22 ISR:0000 !FF! rFF A18346 wFF isr:FF00
18350 ERR:12 ISR:FF00 X18851
18852 PRT:10 ISR:EA90 rAA W18852 wF2 rFA rAB r83 R19358
ID:AB83(AT) S19358 wED rFA w00 rFA L19364 r15 rF0 r15 r1D rF0 r1D r24 rF0 r24


Test B (switched to newer firmware, same result), again in AT mode:

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:.....
Listening:

TMK:44ee4f/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I525 A3526 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3918 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4419
Device disconnected.
Waiting for new device:........
Listening:

TMK:44ee4f/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I304 A3305 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3697 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4198
11993 ERR:20 ISR:E000
12123 ERR:20 ISR:F000
12124 PRT:23 ISR:0000 rFF W12124 wF2 rFA rAB r83 R12629
ID:AB83(AT)
12629 PRT:10 ISR:A0D0 S12630 wED rFA w00 rFA L12636 r15 rF0 r15 r1D rF0 r1D r24 rF0 r24


After this I did the same tests with the Soarer, as well as two PS/2 to USB mouse+keyboard adapter dongles I had (one of which was reported to work by another member with the Copam). The one which worked best was my Aten branded one (it handled the "<" + ">" key correctly, which the generic adapter did not.

It did work perfectly with the NTC (albeit only in AT mode, not XT, but this is expected). The Copam behaved identically as with the Soarer and the TMK (only the three LED keys register.)

This time the Scroll Lock was active and working (dead during last tests), so I was incorrect in assuming it indicated that a "mode" had been set or that the keyboard had initialized properly.

The firmware version (TMK:f03668da+/LUFA) should also be identical (I notice it was not in the output I provided earlier, but I still had the screenbuffer from when I tested on the other host; I've saved all of it in case it's of further use. I thought for a moment that the two firmware versions were different, as I flashed the TMK a couple of months ago)

The curious thing is that the disconnect is not visible in the hid_listen log anymore when running newer firmware (which is unrelated to the Copam). Perhaps it was a coincidence.


I am including the start of the capture below (omitting the section which captured the NTC). (NOTE: this is the start if the capture from earlier, which logged keycodes from the Copam after the NTC was swapped with it on the TMK and Soarer firmwares)

Code: [Select]
Waiting for device:...........
Listening:


TMK:f03668da+/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.

531 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 I532
532 PRT:22 ISR:0000 rAA A533 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
925 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X1426 rAA W1427 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R2319
ID:FFFF(XT)
2320 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S2320 L2320

« Last Edit: Fri, 13 August 2021, 14:18:09 by Drag0nFly »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #89 on: Sat, 14 August 2021, 00:26:04 »
(Sorry about the OSX output, it was only for the last two tests. I'm not going to use it again, and the machine which actually captured the output from the Copam was one of my Linux systems.)

In any case; I ran a multitude of tests (around 20) today hoping that I could again re-create the behaviour. Long story short, I could not. I am including the output again, as it was incomplete last time for the "A" & "B" tests.

hmm, Copam keyobard doesn't seem to send any signal now(as before). We will have to find test procedure which can be reproduced using the NTC keyboard consistently.


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #90 on: Thu, 09 September 2021, 08:37:47 »
Hi @hasu,

I did quite a lot of further testing with the NTC keyboard – running in both XT and AT mode – and the Copam, but was unable to reproduce. I am unsure if I am on the same firmware which worked before, as this has been changed around quite a lot during testing. I should at least be seeing something.

A thought I am having is since the Copam is reported as being AT (and *not* XT) as thought before (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Copam_K-430), I was wondering if there is some variant of AT-only firmware for the TMK I could try (similar to the XT-only firmware you provided). It appears both the Soarer and the TMK default to XT in the event of an unknown keyboard.

Perhaps this is a longshot, but it might be worth trying if there is an 'experimental' version of the TMK firmware for AT-boards (e.g, in the case of other problematic AT keyboards tested earlier)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #91 on: Thu, 09 September 2021, 09:22:54 »
TMK "AT-only firmware" is ps2_usb converter.  You can find its firmware in this post.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111510.msg3057534#msg3057534

Source code is available here.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/tree/master/converter/ps2_usb

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #92 on: Thu, 09 September 2021, 12:53:14 »
Thanks, but I tried the ps2 firmware already: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111510.msg3057731#msg3057731

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #93 on: Thu, 09 September 2021, 20:56:53 »
Yes, you already did and that is what I wanted to say. PS/2 is equivalent to AT protocol. Did I read your previous post wrong way?

Your keyobard seems to me to be a XT keyboard from dedbug logs so far, but it can support AT somehow as others and the wiki say. You can try more other cheap PS/2 converters in the market to find one working with yours. It may be worth.


And you said the ATEN converter works with the Copam somewhat, right? Do you see other keys than '<>' register something? It may give us a clue. You can use tool like SwitchHitter or Aquakeytest to see undisplayable keys.
Quote
After this I did the same tests with the Soarer, as well as two PS/2 to USB mouse+keyboard adapter dongles I had (one of which was reported to work by another member with the Copam). The one which worked best was my Aten branded one (it handled the "<" + ">" key correctly, which the generic adapter did not.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111510.msg3074824#msg3074824

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #94 on: Fri, 10 September 2021, 14:13:01 »
Ok, no problem @hasu. I thought for a moment that the test with the ps/2 firmware had not been noticed.

And no, the Copam does not work with the Aten converter. There was another member on here (@svaya) who indicated that his Copam K-430 worked with a generic AT-to-PS/2 + mouse+keyboard adapter, but I have not been able to 100% verify this (if the keyboard is indeed XT it would be strange, but I am thinking there might be different revisions of the board if so is the case.)

I did also buy a generic PS/2 mouse+keyboard adapter off of eBay, but it did not work with the Copam (tested repeatedly). Then again, my keyboard appears to enter a state where it does not want to talk to any connected computer unless some magic(tm) happens.

Obviously, I have yet to find what this magic is. Since it worked before with both the TMK and the Soarer (albeit for a short period of time, but most/all keys registered), I hoped to reproduce this but so far no luck...

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #95 on: Tue, 05 October 2021, 11:19:13 »
Hi @hasu,

Some actual news for this – finally. (and also big thanks to @svaya for sending a PS2 adapter which really helped this process.)
(Spoiler alert: this was a lesson in Occam's Razor if I ever saw one...)

I performed a number of tests for this board today, knowing that the specific adapter I was sent worked on another Copam K-430. I did a number of tests (10+), but to my dismay I could not get it working, after swapping around the various adapters I have (the Soarer, TMK, Aten AT/PS2 + two generic AT/PS2 adapters)

Then, *just after I was about to give up, keys started registering(!)*. I had moved the keyboard around a number of times during testing, and it turned out that once it had some weight on the internal 6-pin connector – when the cable was indirectly being pressed down because the heavy curled-cable was helping it due to the keyboard placement (hanging off the back) – it had contact. Color me stunned.  :eek:

Now, I've looked at the whole PCB several times to check for loose solder joints, especially for the cable, but all were solid. (Also applied DeOxit on all contact points.) Turning to a magnifier glass to look closer at the bottom side of the internal 6-pin cable, it appears that one of the cable pins (the blue one) inside the internal connector facing the PCB-side did not have proper contact as the metal had moved slightly up (the part touching the stiff pin on the PCB connector).

I then proceeded to pressing down on the metal part (top-side) with a very thin screwdriver and (re-)applied DeOxit (done a number of times before on the PCB), and I then re-tested the board with my other adapters. And – (to my amazement) the Soarer registered every key – except PrintScrn – (albeit, and unsurprisingly, with an error code, as reported by others). The other adapter I bought, which looks similar to the generic one I just received *also worked*.(!)  – every key registered, except the Scroll Lock, but I think that behaviour is a little special on this board.

Finally, I tested the TMK adapter and it (*drumroll*) also worked as well (!!) (scroll lock registered on this one, but for some reason not the Print Screen key), which works on the generic PS2 adapters (with a passive AT-to-PS2 plug). So @hasu, it turns out that your adapter had indeed worked all along, and I owe you a bit of an apology for not noticing this problem earlier. You were also right regarding the hardware issue.

I am still quite stunned (and frankly moderately embarrassed) that it actually was a matter of one pin inside the plug having intermittent contact, and that your adapter worked all along. But at least all the testing was not for nothing.

I think if I did not have the “known-working” adapter I would not have spent such a long time re-testing it (approx. an hour this time), and probably not noticed this silly cable problem; which finally explained why the keyboard was working earlier. Also interesting was that the Aten adapter (more expensive, did *not* work, and it behaved as when I tried the NTC keyboard in XT-mode (all LED lights flickering, same as for the NTC)

What is also funny (or perhaps, scary) is that this issue would probably not even have been noticed either if the top case was mounted on the keyboard (due to the downward pressure it would cause on the 6-pin cable, similar to pressing down on it slightly with a finger). Since I was restoring the keyboard, the case had been removed, as well as all the keycaps.

So, bottom line, the persistence paid off. I frankly thought that there was little hope for this board at this point. Now I have to decide how to solve the (non-existing) AltGr key, so that special keys can be used probably by remapping another, and look at why the PrintSrcn key does not work (both on the Soarer and the TMK), but curiously registers on the PS2 adapters. :)

But that issue is somewhat minor compared to the problems experienced earlier with the K-430...
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 October 2021, 16:56:03 by Drag0nFly »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #96 on: Tue, 05 October 2021, 19:38:39 »
Great to hear.

Use hid_listen to debug the keys(ScrollLock and PrintScreen) with Soarer's and TMK converter, once the keyboard starts working consistently :D

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #97 on: Wed, 06 October 2021, 14:02:21 »
Yes, it was a surprise indeed. I have now tested the keyboard a number of times, and it behaves consistently, both with your TMK adapter and the two generic PS/2 adapters.

Curiously, with hid_listen, no output is seen when pressing PrintScrn though. However, I know this key registers – and works – as it behaves correctly on both the PS/2 adapters, where the key is mapped to “screenshot” on my Linux machine.

The same behaviour is seen with the Soarer (no output with hid_listen)

EDIT: as I am writing this, I see from my older pictures of the board (I still have the caps removed) that what I thought was PrintScrn is actully SysRq (yes, a dedicated key for System Request). Somehow I think this key is being ignored with the TMK and Soarer firmware - at least in XT mode. See attached image.

The key for PrintScrn is actually to the right of "9" on the NumPad (presumably activated via Shift+*). However, it only produces ⋅ (hid_listen: 36 r36 r37 ⋅rB7 rB6)
The "correct way" also does not work on the other adapters.

277083-0

Scroll Lock and Num Lock work properly with the TMK firmware. I am including some hid_listen output below –

Code: [Select]
TMK:147575/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I558
620 PRT:10 ISR:AA90 rAA
624 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 rAA A3559 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
3951 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4452 rAA W4456 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R5349
ID:FFFF(XT)
5349 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S5350 L5350 r1F r9F r20 rA0 r20 rA0 r20 rA0 r20 r1F rA0 r20 r9F rA0 r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r3A rBA r3A rBA r46 rC6 r3A rBA r46 rC6 r3A rBA

r46 rC6 r46 rC6 (Scroll lock)

r45 rC5 r45 rC5  (Num lock)

r36 r36 r37 ⋅rB7 rB6 (Shift + * on numpad, should – presumably – do PrintScrn. But SysRq is probably better to be re-mapped to this as on the PS/2 adapters, as it is never really used)
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 October 2021, 14:20:06 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #98 on: Wed, 06 October 2021, 14:06:19 »
btw., I presume ID:FFFF(XT) is some kind of standard identifier (being all hex Fs), as the keyboard should speak AT seeing that it works with the generic adapters (or it speaks both, but that sounds unlikely)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #99 on: Wed, 06 October 2021, 22:28:40 »
Interesting. Confirmed that Copam K-430 is AT/XT auto-switching finally.

First, the keyboard sends 'AA' intentionally with parity error on AT protocol and expects behaviour like below:
- AT host including normal PS/2 converters reply with 'FE' and the keyboard continues communication on AT protocol, I guess.
- XT host can recognize it as 'AA' ignoring preceding two redundant 0 pulses.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/IBM-PC-Keyboard-Converter#aa-with-prity-error

TMK converter doesn't detect the parity error and the keyboard switches to XT protocol immediately.

As for SysReq key it was introduced in IBM AT 84-key keyboard and didn't exists on IBM XT keyboard. The keyboard doesn't support the key in XT protocol unfortunately.

Maybe I'll fix my firmware for the parity error to support AT/XT auto-swithching keyboards later.




As for the Keypad* key, it is true on IBM PC/XT computer. PrintScreen function is handled by host when Shift and Keypad*  are pressed. PrintSreen key doesn't exits in original IBM XT keyboard. Later, some of clone XT keyboards introduced PrintScreen key but Copam K-430 didn't. TMK converter doesn't handle the Shift and Keypad* combination because it is not good for key remap.

Microsoft documented about how PrintScreen key should behave on XT protocol(Scan Code Set 1), see Note 4 if you are interested.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201112031338/download.microsoft.com/download/1/6/1/161ba512-40e2-4cc9-843a-923143f3456c/scancode.doc

Quote
The key for PrintScrn is actually to the right of "9" on the NumPad (presumably activated via Shift+*). However, it only produces ⋅ (hid_listen: 36 r36 r37 ⋅rB7 rB6)
The "correct way" also does not work on the other adapters.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 October 2021, 22:36:56 by hasu »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #100 on: Mon, 11 October 2021, 07:58:09 »
Can you try attached firmware and show me its debug log?

* ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4.hex (62.96 kB - downloaded 119 times.)

I updated firmware and the converter detects parity error and tries recovery by sending a command now.
Copam K-430 will communicate with the converter on AT protocol now, instead of XT.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #101 on: Mon, 11 October 2021, 09:20:38 »
Interesting. Confirmed that Copam K-430 is AT/XT auto-switching finally.

Yes, I thought that was interesting as well. Glad something useful finally came out of it.
(sorry for the late reply, btw. I was kind of busy these past few days)

First, the keyboard sends 'AA' intentionally with parity error on AT protocol and expects behaviour like below:
- AT host including normal PS/2 converters reply with 'FE' and the keyboard continues communication on AT protocol, I guess.
- XT host can recognize it as 'AA' ignoring preceding two redundant 0 pulses.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/IBM-PC-Keyboard-Converter#aa-with-prity-error

TMK converter doesn't detect the parity error and the keyboard switches to XT protocol immediately.

As for SysReq key it was introduced in IBM AT 84-key keyboard and didn't exists on IBM XT keyboard. The keyboard doesn't support the key in XT protocol unfortunately.

Maybe I'll fix my firmware for the parity error to support AT/XT auto-swithching keyboards later.

Then it makes sense that nothing is registered.

I noticed that you are working on the auto-switching functionality, will reply in separate post


As for the Keypad* key, it is true on IBM PC/XT computer. PrintScreen function is handled by host when Shift and Keypad*  are pressed. PrintSreen key doesn't exits in original IBM XT keyboard. Later, some of clone XT keyboards introduced PrintScreen key but Copam K-430 didn't. TMK converter doesn't handle the Shift and Keypad* combination because it is not good for key remap.

Microsoft documented about how PrintScreen key should behave on XT protocol(Scan Code Set 1), see Note 4 if you are interested.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201112031338/download.microsoft.com/download/1/6/1/161ba512-40e2-4cc9-843a-923143f3456c/scancode.doc

I looked at the doc, and tried various combos of Ctrl+Shift+* etc, but it does not register as PrintScrn. I notice it also referenced the 'break' key (which doesn't exist)

So are you saying that it should work with a certain keycombo – not necessarily Shift+* on the NumPad?
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 October 2021, 09:26:51 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #102 on: Mon, 11 October 2021, 09:26:24 »
Can you try attached firmware and show me its debug log?

(Attachment Link)

I updated firmware and the converter detects parity error and tries recovery by sending a command now.
Copam K-430 will communicate with the converter on AT protocol now, instead of XT.
Tried the updated firmware, but the keyboard behaves the same way unfortunately. I notice it does send a reset, which it didn't do before. I still comes up as an XT keyboard.

Tried to get the PrintScrn keycode to register, based on your previous comments (unsure if I understood the keycode reference from M$ correctly, but it seems there might be other keys involved).

Also – and this is more of a question: I cannot see how one would enter sub-legends on the K-430, as it does not have an AltGr key. However, those keys are on the keycaps (for @, £, $ for 2, 3, 4, respectively). Not sure if there is something I am missing, or whether another key will have to be re-mapped to AltGr.
(see the previous picture for the layout)

In any case, here is the debug log for the new firmware you just uploaded when testing on the Copam:

Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:.......................
Listening:

TMK:86482d/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I717
718 ERR:01 ISR:AA90 [RST] I719
723 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 rAA A3720 wFF R R R R R R R R R R
4201 ERR:11 ISR:0000 X4703 rAA W4707 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R5689
ID:FFFF(XT)
5690 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S5690 L5690 r1E r9E r1E r9E r1F r9F r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r45 rC5 r45 rC5 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r2A r2A r2A r2A r2A r2A r2A r37 rB7 rAA r2A r37 rB7 r37 rB7 r37 rB7 r37 rB7 rAA

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #103 on: Tue, 12 October 2021, 09:17:03 »
Timing of sending command seems to be too late for the keyboard.
I fixed how to send 'reset' command.

* ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4.hex (62.65 kB - downloaded 116 times.)


As for PrintScreen original IBM XT keyboard doesn't have 'dedicated' PrintScreen key while some enhanced XT keyboards has. The MS document explains about the 'dedicated' PrintSreen key. Copam doesn't have the 'dedicated' key and so you have to use Shift+Keypad* combo on XT computer. Note that the converter doesn't recognize the combo by design.

The Copam K-430 through the converter works just as a modern USB keyboard. You will need AltGr, that is Right Alt for the char.(but I'm not sure, it depends on you keyboard layout on your OS.) You can remap a key for AltGr once firmware support the Copam keyboard.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #104 on: Tue, 12 October 2021, 11:41:03 »
Timing of sending command seems to be too late for the keyboard.
I fixed how to send 'reset' command.

(Attachment Link)
Great, I'll try it and report back.

As for PrintScreen original IBM XT keyboard doesn't have 'dedicated' PrintScreen key while some enhanced XT keyboards has. The MS document explains about the 'dedicated' PrintSreen key. Copam doesn't have the 'dedicated' key and so you have to use Shift+Keypad* combo on XT computer. Note that the converter doesn't recognize the combo by design.
Ok–I was a little unsure whether the converter should recognize Shift+* as PrintScrn in XT-mode, since it is apparently the only way to send PrintScrn via the keyboard when running in this mode.

The Copam K-430 through the converter works just as a modern USB keyboard. You will need AltGr, that is Right Alt for the char.(but I'm not sure, it depends on you keyboard layout on your OS.) You can remap a key for AltGr once firmware support the Copam keyboard.
Yes, I guess I should clarify: I was wondering how this functionality was originally intended for this keyboard, being that many of the important keys are sub-legends normally activated via AltGr (which it, as we both noticed, does not have)

It affects the "@" key and "<" ">" keys (and brackets/parenthesis), etc., in addition to the currency symbols, so I am just thinking a bit out loud what the intention of the designers were. Maybe "Alt" acted as an AltGr, but it also does not make much sense. (It is of course hard to determine if not having used the keyboard) ;)

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #105 on: Tue, 12 October 2021, 12:24:36 »
Tested the updated firmware; not quite there yet as it still comes up as XT.

Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:.
Listening:

TMK:56eb79/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I611
612 ERR:01 ISR:AA90 [RST] E612 A613 wFF rAA
616 PRT:22 ISR:AAC0 X1117 rAA W1121 wF2 R R R R R R R R R R R2103
ID:FFFF(XT)
2103 ERR:11 ISR:AAC0 S2104 L2104


r20 rA0 r20 rA0 r1F r9F r12 r92 r12 r92 r12 r92 r13 r93 r0E r8E r01 r81 r0E r0E r0E r0E r0E r8E r1C r9C r1C r9C r1C r9C r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r46 rC6 r45 rC5 r45 rC5 r2A r37 rB7 r37 rB7 r37 rB7 r37 rB7 r37 rB7 r37 rB7 rAA r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r38 r2A r02 r82 r03 r83 r03 r83 r04 r84 r04 r84 r04 r84 r03 r83 rB8 rAA r3A r03 r83 r03 r83 r04 r84 rBA r3A r3A r3A r3A r3A r3A r3A r3A r2A r03 r83 r03 r83 r02 r82 r02 r82 r03 r83 r03 r83 rAA r2A rAA r04 r84 r38 r04 r84 r03 r83 rB8 rBA r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E r0E r8E


Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #106 on: Wed, 13 October 2021, 10:26:00 »
Reset command doesn't seems to work as what I expected.
Updated to send Resend instead Reset command.

* ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4.hex (62.87 kB - downloaded 109 times.)

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #107 on: Thu, 14 October 2021, 16:04:09 »
Hi @hasu,

Sorry for the late reply. I tested your updated firmware just now, and can report ––







More
that the Copam now speaks AT to your adapter.  ;D

See debug output below. Also tested the SysRq key, which now behaves as PrintScrn (similar to the passive PS2-USB adapters). Also notice the Scroll Lock behavior is different – it does not come on (the LED), although the key is registered (also identical to the other AT adapters)

Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:.....................................................................................
Listening:

TMK:111e8c/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I776
777 ERR:02 ISR:AA90 P778 wFE rAA r00AA e00 iEA90 E781 I781 A3782 wFF rFA
3785 PRT:10 ISR:FE90 rAA W4168 wF2 rFA R5171
ID:0000(AT_AT84) S5171 wED rFA w00 rFA L5178 r84 rF0 r84 r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r4A r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r4A r0E rF0 r0E r4A r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r4A r4A rF0 r4A r59 r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r59 r59 r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r59 r66 rF0 r66 r66 rF0 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 rF0 r66 r66 rF0 r66 r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r77 wED rFA w02 rFA rF0 r77 r77 rF0 r77 wED rFA w00 rFA r77 wED rFA w02 rFA rF0 r77 r77 rF0 r77 wED rFA w00 rFA r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 14 October 2021, 16:06:17 »
Hmm. Seems that 'more'-block really messed up the code formatting.

Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:.....................................................................................
Listening:

TMK:111e8c/LUFA:d6a7df

USB configured.

Loop start.
I776
777 ERR:02 ISR:AA90 P778 wFE rAA r00AA e00 iEA90 E781 I781 A3782 wFF rFA
3785 PRT:10 ISR:FE90 rAA W4168 wF2 rFA R5171
ID:0000(AT_AT84) S5171 wED rFA w00 rFA L5178 r84 rF0 r84 r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r4A r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r4A r0E rF0 r0E r4A r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r4A r4A rF0 r4A r59 r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r59 r59 r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E r0E rF0 r0E rF0 r59 r66 rF0 r66 r66 rF0 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 r66 rF0 r66 r66 rF0 r66 r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r77 wED rFA w02 rFA rF0 r77 r77 rF0 r77 wED rFA w00 rFA r77 wED rFA w02 rFA rF0 r77 r77 rF0 r77 wED rFA w00 rFA r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E r7E rF0 r7E

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #109 on: Thu, 14 October 2021, 16:36:33 »
Hmm x2. With regards to remapping for AltGr (still haven't decided how to do this) – but I really wonder how these legends were typed originally? – it's the same problem for the U.S layout (not just us strange frozen Northerners with equally strange vowel keys;) –



I guess one option is to sacrifice the right Shift key (and make the arrow-nav into an inverse T-nav and the leftmost arrow into AltGr, but it's not the prettiest, as there is neither an actual AltGr keycap, and since the stabilizer mounts for the R-Shift would be visible if the Up_arrow was placed there...)

Question: Is it possible to perhaps use the comination of L_Shift + Alt to function as an AltGr? Or does it need to be a dedicated key? (not sure how/if the firmware would allow this)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #110 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 05:23:06 »
Great! I'll add support for the Copam K-430 keyboard on next release.

'Scroll Lock' LED is controled by OS. Windows is known to turn it on while Linux and MacOS don't in general as far as I know. I think you are testing on Mac. Try on Windows.


Hi @hasu,

Sorry for the late reply. I tested your updated firmware just now, and can report ––


that the Copam now speaks AT to your adapter.  ;D

See debug output below. Also tested the SysRq key, which now behaves as PrintScrn (similar to the passive PS2-USB adapters). Also notice the Scroll Lock behavior is different – it does not come on (the LED), although the key is registered (also identical to the other AT adapters)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #111 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 05:44:18 »
I guess one option is to sacrifice the right Shift key (and make the arrow-nav into an inverse T-nav and the leftmost arrow into AltGr, but it's not the prettiest, as there is neither an actual AltGr keycap, and since the stabilizer mounts for the R-Shift would be visible if the Up_arrow was placed there...)

Question: Is it possible to perhaps use the comination of L_Shift + Alt to function as an AltGr? Or does it need to be a dedicated key? (not sure how/if the firmware would allow this)

The converter firmware itsef doesn't recognize any key combo.  You can emulate it somewhat in keymap perhaps but it doesn't appear a good idea. I think you will need dedicated key.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #112 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 07:45:54 »
Just to clarify regarding the Scroll Lock, I mentioned it as it was different to running the keyboard in XT-mode with the TMK adapter on the same host. In XT-mode it lights up and can be toggled.

So I guess this is AT-specific, as all other adapters behave the same way (on Linux), when hooked up to an AT board.

I'll keep thinking about what to do with the sub-legends (@, £, $, etc.) It seems peculiar, as there has to have been a way to type these on the keyboard “back in the day”, as several layouts have this issue.

That being said, is there a guide on how to remap the keys – as in an editor for the .hex file which is programmed to the adapter? (hopefully something which works on Linux)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #113 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 09:19:40 »
Just to clarify regarding the Scroll Lock, I mentioned it as it was different to running the keyboard in XT-mode with the TMK adapter on the same host. In XT-mode it lights up and can be toggled.
Ah, OK. Yes, LED indcators are controlled by the keyboard In XT mode while by computer/OS in AT mode.
It seems that modern computers don't define apparent usage for Scroll Lock key and its indicator.


Quote
I'll keep thinking about what to do with the sub-legends (@, £, $, etc.) It seems peculiar, as there has to have been a way to type these on the keyboard “back in the day”, as several layouts have this issue.
I think you can find something in vast documents hosted in bitsavers.org. Let us know if you find.
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/xt
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/at

Quote
That being said, is there a guide on how to remap the keys – as in an editor for the .hex file which is programmed to the adapter? (hopefully something which works on Linux)

You can refer wiki pages.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki


Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 15 October 2021, 11:59:59 »
Thanks for those pointers – I'll check them out and see if I can find something.  :thumb:

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 27 October 2021, 22:47:53 »
I updated firmware. You can download new firmware on Keymap Editor now.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103648.msg3090743#msg3090743

Let me know if you have any problem with new firmware.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #116 on: Sun, 07 November 2021, 10:42:09 »
Looked at the technical reference docs – AFAIKS there were no mentions of an AltGr key, except in the XT286 doc (brief mention on page 196); not surprisingly as it is not common on XT. Looked at the most recent AT doc from 1986 also, and it was the same there.

However, I notice that the issue is usually solved by using Ctrl+Alt (on Win) and even simply by using the 'regular' Alt (L-Alt) as an AltGr / R_Alt (which is actually default on OSX, learned something new) Funny as I was specifically avoiding testing on OSX due to its terse hid_listen output...). It would appear that the latter solution would be better, since one cannot remap a key-combo with the TMK firmware to act as AltGr...

I did this on Linux with a customized Xmodmap in X in order to have Alt toggle level3 modifiers ("keycode  64 = ISO_Level3_Shift NoSymbol ISO_Level3_Shift", it worked in X (Mate terminal) but some apps (esp. Emacs and Vi) still interpret the keycode incorrectly.
Looked at the wiki page for how to remap keys, but apparently got lost in the vastness of the documentation. ;)

One last thought: is the TMK firmware able to know how many keys is on the keyboard if it is uniquely identified during initialization? If so, one could perhaps assign Alt as AltGr as default (unless there are good reasons to retain the L_Alt key functionality of course)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #117 on: Sun, 07 November 2021, 19:54:50 »
What's exact your problem or requirement?
Simply mapping Left Alt key to Right Alt(AltGr) on Keymap Editor doesn't work for you?

The converter can get Keyboard ID from many of PC keyboards. But Copam doesn't have Keyboard ID as IBM PC/AT 84-key keyboard.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/IBM-PC-AT-Keyboard-Protocol#keyboard-id

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #118 on: Tue, 09 November 2021, 13:37:56 »
Hi @hasu,


No worries, I used your on-line remapping tool for the IBMPC firmware and Alt now outputs AltGr. Very convenient tool (which I initially did not see when I landed on the FAQ page..)

I was a little concerned that the generated unimap hexfile was quite a bit larger than the “ibmpc_usb_atmega32u4” I was using (63K) vs. 68K for the modified one, but I guess it might be due to unimap or some other extra data.

Now my Copam actually works and is useful. :) Even the line-nav somehow makes more sense (although not ideal for gaming)

There are a few keys which still output incorrect codes, but this is due to the weird layout. Particularly the leftmost key next to F2, which is "<" ">" (i.e, the reverse of the problem reported earlier as this key is normally found to the right of the left shift in ISO-layouts.)

The keyboard editor reports the hexcode as 34, and the other key to the right of the left shift (which doesn't exist on the Copam) as 64. So I guess it is just a matter of switching those around as well.

Thanks again for your excellent work on the firmware and the remap functionality.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #119 on: Sun, 12 December 2021, 10:37:53 »
Hi @hasu,

Don't mean to pollute this thread, but I have another board which I wanted to start a “supported”-thread for. The problem is, I am unsure what brand and model it is!
What I can say is that it only works with your adapter (in AT84 mode) – and I was thinking that support for this, or a keyboard quite similar, might have been to your firmware. I also know it has Alps SKCL Cream switches.

I created another thread for it here in the “Media” section – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=115479.0

I've asked on Deskthority as well – as I assumed there would be members there who'd recognize it – but none appear to know which board it is. Just posting here in case it rings any bells, so to speak, as it would be nice to know what keyboard I actually bought. :)