Topre PBT Spacebar (SECOND RUN!)

[Lansky]

So the package just arrived like half an hour ago, so that was quicker than I expected. I thought it would get held up in the customs for a while, but fortunately it didn't.

I took a few pictures to give make comparison between the stock Realforce ABS spacebar and the new PBT ones. These are my first PBT bars so I can't compare them to the ones from the first run. This is by no means a scientific comparison, I just thought people would like to have an idea of what they look like. I'll comment more on the quality and feel of the spacebars later when I have time.

[oscillik]

Yep, looks like this second run is considerably less quality than the first one.

That's disappointing.

[jchan94]

 The topre mount point looks to be thinner than oem which I find to be an issue.

[kawasaki161]

If they are the same ones that popped up on Aliexpress they also don't really snap-fit, I mean they kinda do, but it's more 30% snap 70% friction in my case.

[romevi]

If they are the same ones that popped up on Aliexpress they also don't really snap-fit, I mean they kinda do, but it's more 30% snap 70% friction in my case.

They better not be the ones from AliExpress... I'd be pretty livid if they were.

[the_marsbar]

I have just received an e-mail that I will get a refund. I am at the same time pleased about this, but also very frustrated, since the reviews of the spacebars from the first run all indicated excellent quality. I am quite sad that this turned out not to be the case. I guess I'll have to live with ABS for now then...

[kawasaki161]

If they are the same ones that popped up on Aliexpress they also don't really snap-fit, I mean they kinda do, but it's more 30% snap 70% friction in my case.

They better not be the ones from AliExpress... I'd be pretty livid if they were.

Sadly the pictures look very similar to the ones from Aliexpress with only slight adjustments (they said that they had new molds made). The stem looks basically identical and the corners look just as bad. They aren't 100% the same, but from what I've seen and heard about them they seem to be closer to the Aliexpress version as to R1, which is really sad, but we don't really have an alternative, do we?

[Lansky]

Sadly the pictures look very similar to the ones from Aliexpress with only slight adjustments (they said that they had new molds made). The stem looks basically identical and the corners look just as bad. They aren't 100% the same, but from what I've seen and heard about them they seem to be closer to the Aliexpress version as to R1, which is really sad, but we don't really have an alternative, do we?

 

Well, this sucks.

[jchan94]

If they are the same ones that popped up on Aliexpress they also don't really snap-fit, I mean they kinda do, but it's more 30% snap 70% friction in my case.

They better not be the ones from AliExpress... I'd be pretty livid if they were.

Sadly the pictures look very similar to the ones from Aliexpress with only slight adjustments (they said that they had new molds made). The stem looks basically identical and the corners look just as bad. They aren't 100% the same, but from what I've seen and heard about them they seem to be closer to the Aliexpress version as to R1, which is really sad, but we don't really have an alternative, do we?

Can you show us a comparison between the aliexpress ones an the r2 MD ones?

[dario]

I've just sent my message to Massdrop support asking for a refund before they even send me what I ordered, because I'm yet to see a positive review of any color of this second run spacebars. They get almost uniformly negative reviews, same here as in massdrop's comments section.

Anyway, if anyone has a red PBT spacebar from the FIRST run and is willing to sell it, please send me a PM. Thank you.

[jchan94]

Looking for keyboard Science of :

1) Aliexpress topre spacebar

2) Stock ABS topre spacebar

3) R1 MD Topre spacebar

4) R2 MD Topre spacebar

[iamtootallforthis]

Looking for keyboard Science of :

1) Aliexpress topre spacebar

2) Stock ABS topre spacebar

3) R1 MD Topre spacebar

4) R2 MD Topre spacebar

I'll have 2,3 and 4 once I get my round 2's in.

[kawasaki161]

Can you show us a comparison between the aliexpress ones an the r2 MD ones?

I'll try to make comparison pictures once my R2 MD spacebars arrive (no shipping notification yet ) keep in mind that the quality will be awesome thanks to my high end photographing brick aka Google Nexus 5 from 2013

[jchan94]

Looks like R2 is a different mold than the Aliexpress ones.

The injection points are different.

[kawasaki161]

Looks like R2 is a different mold than the Aliexpress ones.

The injection points are different.

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Correct, but they said that there would be new molds made anyways, so that is not much of a surprise.
The thing is that the ones in the picture are a lot cleaner than what you would actually get at the end, also they do have more material on the stem than the actual product. The stem, stabfittings and the corners (same inconsistency) seem very similar to the MD R2 ones (when you are comparing the real Spacebar to the pictures), but the injection points are different and the outer ledges have a different finish from the Aliexpress ones that are just raw. Another thing I noticed is that those stabilizing cross sections are slightly different around the stem and stabfittings.

Currently I can only make assumptions and my assumption is that they were made in the same factory, but we can never be 100% sure since we know they changed something about the mold.

I'll wait until they arrive and make a new statement then, as well as provide the best comparison shots I can.

[yomammary]

I didn't even get a shipment notification yet.
I fail to see problems with the spacebars in the pictures posted though. Do they fit?

[iamtootallforthis]

I didn't even get a shipment notification yet.
I fail to see problems with the spacebars in the pictures posted though. Do they fit?

I believe they fit but the issue is the quality of the final cap compared to the Round 1 caps which is frustrating because the Round 1 caps were perfect.

[dario]

Just a fun fact about these PBT spacebars in general.

When people talk about PBT as a material, one of the most commonly mentioned features is that it will not get shiny. Oh yes it will, believe me. I've been using this PBT spacebar from round 1 for about three months now (previous owner didn't use it at all), and it already starts to show shining where the right thumb hits it.



I mean, when you look at the old IBM keyboards made of PBT, some of them are carved in so much deep that you can almost tell the shape of the fingers of its owners.

PBT is not very tough, it's just tougher than ABS.

[oscillik]

We already know that PBT isn't shine proof, it is demonstrably less prone to it, dependant on a number of factors, including your skin chemistry.

Pretty sure no one except uninformed people have claimed that PBT never shines. Plenty have claimed correctly that it takes longer for it to shine.

[nathanrosspowell]

Got a refund for mine with zero questioning from massdrop.

I already have a few from R1, so no need for 6 lower quality ones ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[jchan94]

Got a refund for mine with zero questioning from massdrop.

I already have a few from R1, so no need for 6 lower quality ones ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you mind sharing a comparison between r1 and r2? Glad you got the refund so easily btw!

[nathanrosspowell]

Got a refund for mine with zero questioning from massdrop.

I already have a few from R1, so no need for 6 lower quality ones ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you mind sharing a comparison between r1 and r2? Glad you got the refund so easily btw!

Sorry, I saw the pictures here and comment on massdrop and asked for a refund as they hadn't shipped mine.

[Elrick]

Got a refund for mine with zero questioning from massdrop.

I already have a few from R1, so no need for 6 lower quality ones ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

MassDrop has to honour it's commitment to it's customers and they know about the quality issues, hence it will hurt them big time.

Although some won't bother to demand a refund simply because even if it's badly made, they can offload all of them on Fleabay where Realforce PBT Space bars are very rare. 

Always make money and recover from any Group Buy  .

[SpAmRaY]

A heads up to anyone waiting to get these Massdrop says they need photo or video showing issues before they can do anything about it.

[Elrick]

A heads up to anyone waiting to get these Massdrop says they need photo or video showing issues before they can do anything about it.

Seems to be a common statement from MassDrop these days, provide videos/pics to prove your case.

What's next, a lawyer and a date in court for them to make the final decision as to whether or not to stand behind their customers or back dodgy scumbags, making garbage products?

Looks like ole MD is finally showing their true colours and it's got nothing to do with badly made spacers........... 

[dario]

I got an almost instantaneous refund, few minutes after I send them a message I don't want my spacebars anymore, no need for sending. Top notch support if you ask me. 

In the meantime, prices for spacebars round1 are going wild... 

[Elrick]

I got an almost instantaneous refund, few minutes after I send them a message I don't want my spacebars anymore, no need for sending. Top notch support if you ask me. 

In the meantime, prices for spacebars round1 are going wild... 

You're lucky because they haven't sent out your order yet so you can easily cancel it.  Pity for those that have received theirs already.

Thanks for that, looking to offload some Round 1s if the prices are good and thanks to MD they have now made it a perfect time to sell them  .

[romevi]

I just received a black one I purchased from nickheller. Mine is fine. Not sure if I was preparing for the worst, but I'm totally content with it. I have a few from the previous drop, and the only immediate difference I can see is that the newer one is a bit grainier than the previous versions. But I prefer grainy so I'm totally cool with it.

[Capmerica]

It is hurtful to hear


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[the_marsbar]

There are many people reporting poor quality in the comments section on MassDrop. I'm really happy that I ended up getting a refund. After the first round of spacebars, I was really expecting pure perfection.

[SpAmRaY]

They look worse in person. I also managed to ruin my hhkb space bar spring trying to mount one of these.

[iamtootallforthis]

They look worse in person. I also managed to ruin my hhkb space bar spring trying to mount one of these.

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They look really crappy compared to round 1 

[dario]

Just a fun fact about these PBT spacebars in general.

When people talk about PBT as a material, one of the most commonly mentioned features is that it will not get shiny. Oh yes it will, believe me. I've been using this PBT spacebar from round 1 for about three months now (previous owner didn't use it at all), and it already starts to show shining where the right thumb hits it.

Show Image

I mean, when you look at the old IBM keyboards made of PBT, some of them are carved in so much deep that you can almost tell the shape of the fingers of its owners.

PBT is not very tough, it's just tougher than ABS.

We already know that PBT isn't shine proof, it is demonstrably less prone to it, dependant on a number of factors, including your skin chemistry.

Pretty sure no one except uninformed people have claimed that PBT never shines. Plenty have claimed correctly that it takes longer for it to shine.

This actually turned out to be a false alarm. I've just taken few alcohol paper tissues for cleaning glasses and cleaned this grease spot with ease. Material itself is not worn out like it would be if it's ABS. Spacebar is now again indistinguishable from brand new one.

PBT has earned its glory after all.  :D

[creamchesus]

In the meantime, prices for spacebars round1 are going wild... 

Where can I find an R1 Spacebar at? I've been looking for awhile..

[menuhin]

In the meantime, prices for spacebars round1 are going wild... 

Where can I find an R1 Spacebar at? I've been looking for awhile..

But it's just less than 10 USD for many PBT Topre spacebar offer at TaoBao - showing photos similar to the samples in this thread.

[dario]

Where can I find an R1 Spacebar at? I've been looking for awhile..

Well, you can buy mine if you want. I just got myself red one, so I don't need black anymore.

But it's just less than 10 USD for many PBT Topre spacebar offer at TaoBao - showing photos similar to the samples in this thread.

Those are useless garbage, just like all of the spacebars in this thread.

There is no point in buying a $220+ keyboard, and then trying to spare some money on one keycap.

As time goes by, I expect prices for spacebars round1 will be going up even more, since they are the only ones that look and work like they should. Everything else is a waste of money.

[menuhin]

But it's just less than 10 USD for many PBT Topre spacebar offer at TaoBao - showing photos similar to the samples in this thread.

Those are useless garbage, just like all of the spacebars in this thread.

There is no point in buying a $220+ keyboard, and then trying to spare some money on one keycap.

As time goes by, I expect prices for spacebars round1 will be going up even more, since they are the only ones that look and work like they should. Everything else is a waste of money.

Where is thread for those round 1 Topre Spacebar? Did Matt3o use the same mold and specs for producing round 2?

Have you personally tried those TaoBao spacebars? If yes, how do they perform and what are their flaws?
Not knowing when will there be round 3 and how much will it cost and most importantly not wanting to 'shine' my original HHKB ABS spacebar, I am planning to get those TaoBao spacebars - they're cheap like a good burger.

[kawasaki161]

Where is thread for those round 1 Topre Spacebar? Did Matt3o use the same mold and specs for producing round 2?

Have you personally tried those TaoBao spacebars? If yes, how do they perform and what are their flaws?
Not knowing when will there be round 3 and how much will it cost and most importantly not wanting to 'shine' my original HHKB ABS spacebar, I am planning to get those TaoBao spacebars - they're cheap like a good burger.

The thread for the R1 spacebars is this thread, it was just updated for R2, the first comments are still about R1 though.

I personally do own two Aliexpress Topre PBT spacebars in white (I planned on dyeing them). They did need a little work on the stem to sit correctly and they aren't as pretty as the original ones, especially when you look at them from the wrong angle. I do have no complaints about how they work though, after cleaning up the stem they sit nicely and they are just as nice to use as the original ones.

[dario]

Where is thread for those round 1 Topre Spacebar? Did Matt3o use the same mold and specs for producing round 2?

Here it is: Matt3o's Amazing Topre PBT Spacebars

What do you mean by "same specs"? Of course that shape and dimensions should be about the same, but the final quality obviously isn't. There's much more to it than just dimensions.

They used different manufacturer this time, probably trying to make it more cost effective, but the idea didn't turn out very well. People are reporting all kinds of defects, be it aesthetical or functional.

Have you personally tried those TaoBao spacebars? If yes, how do they perform and what are their flaws?
Not knowing when will there be round 3 and how much will it cost and most importantly not wanting to 'shine' my original HHKB ABS spacebar, I am planning to get those TaoBao spacebars - they're cheap like a good burger.

It is questionable if there will ever be R3, but if it ever happens, I wouldn't expect it for at least year or two.

As for TaoBao, no I didn't try it, but you can read in this thread people telling they are pretty much the same as MD R2. Of course, it's your money and your keyboard, and you can do with it whatever you want; but I don't really understand the concept of being satisfied with anything less than perfect. If some kind of middle solution is good enough, you could just buy Cherry MX keyboard and not bother with Topre universe at all. Why would anyone want to buy a $220 keyboard and then put some low level cheap Chinese keycaps on it, risking to break stabs and/or spring, is beyond me.

[Elrick]

If some kind of middle solution is good enough, you could just buy Cherry MX keyboard and not bother with Topre universe at all. Why would anyone want to buy a $220 keyboard and then put some low level cheap Chinese keycaps on it, risking to break stabs and/or spring, is beyond me.

CORRECT.

I knew when Matt3o wasn't involved at all during this procedure that something bad will happen and sure enough my instinct was proven.  Although I can't be happy about this since I spent big buying every colour they offered in this R2 version.

Just was hoping MAYBE this Second rebuild will be the same as the First version at least but it looks like it's an ABORTION with PBT  .

[yomammary]

Honestly the green spacebar that I got from the second run fits better than the light grey I had.
A bit more of a rattle, but otherwise it's good.

[ReverbSlush]

I just received a black one I purchased from nickheller. Mine is fine. Not sure if I was preparing for the worst, but I'm totally content with it. I have a few from the previous drop, and the only immediate difference I can see is that the newer one is a bit grainier than the previous versions. But I prefer grainy so I'm totally cool with it.

Same here.  My black one fits fine, no rattle, sorta grainy. I have a few colors too but haven't put them on yet.

[dario]

I've just changed color scheme on my Realforce baby from red to blue, and just out of curiosity made a little experiment - I've put good old ABS spacebar instead of my trusty PBT R1.

I can only say... sweet child Jesus... difference is just enormous. I don't even recall that ABS was so loud with that irritating thin and shallow clicky noise. Just try it for yourself after a few months of using PBT and I guarantee you'll be surprised as I am.

Also, again just for an experiment, I tried putting spacebar the way it's intended to be here, you know what I mean - not flipped. This is also so freaking horrible I can't even understand why it's not factory flipped, there should be no human soul in the known universe condemned to use the spacebar this way. This is just unbearable, it's like a screwdriver stabbing in my thumb every time I press that key. Very first thing everyone should do after unboxing their Realforce out of cardboard is flipping the spacebar, really. Do it before you even plug it into your PC, it's not even worth trying for a few minutes.

[Elrick]

This is also so freaking horrible I can't even understand why it's not factory flipped, there should be no human soul in the known universe condemned to use the spacebar this way. This is just unbearable, it's like a screwdriver stabbing in my thumb every time I press that key. Very first thing everyone should do after unboxing their Realforce out of cardboard is flipping the spacebar, really. Do it before you even plug it into your PC, it's not even worth trying for a few minutes.

Good to see someone that makes me look and sound quite NORMAL to anyone out there.  Spacebar orientation, ....just wow  .

[Belfong]

This is also so freaking horrible I can't even understand why it's not factory flipped, there should be no human soul in the known universe condemned to use the spacebar this way. This is just unbearable, it's like a screwdriver stabbing in my thumb every time I press that key. Very first thing everyone should do after unboxing their Realforce out of cardboard is flipping the spacebar, really. Do it before you even plug it into your PC, it's not even worth trying for a few minutes.

Good to see someone that makes me look and sound quite NORMAL to anyone out there.  Spacebar orientation, ....just wow  .

Indeed, he's equally as eloquent as you when it comes to keyboard 

[SpAmRaY]

I received replacements for my two that had issues and while an improvement from the first set, they still have bottom edge issues and overall feel cheap, I haven't even tried mounting the new ones.

[Corsa1r]

Hey guys, I just wanted to chime in since I was in on this drop and ordered two 'light greys'.  Keep in mind, I have never had a PBT spacebar in my life previous to this, though now I have an FC660M with one and I can compare a little better to something else.

I received my package about 15 days ago, opened them up, and immediately pulled the ABS space bar off my Type-S.  When I inspected each one, I noticed immediately they were slightly thinner than what I expected, but not by much.  Mine have a slightly more grainy texture than the rest of my printed HHKB keycaps, but I actually really like it, and it blends well with the feel of the rest of the board.  Many customers were complaining about 'melty' ends where there was no graininess on the right and left top-sides of their bars, I had no such problem, and my keycap texture is very consistent on both.  As for tooling marks, I have a barely noticeable 'scratch' less than 1mm in the center, anterior end at the bottom on both, which I almost didn't see initially and when it's snapped in, you can't see that part of the key anyways.  Setting them on the straightest table I have, to my eye, neither one had noticeable warping at all, though the center stem on both is SLIGHTLY longer than my ABS one. 

I decided to fit one on, and initially, I had to wiggle it in to get it to 'snap' in, but working it around a little did the trick and it fits WELL.  I did this for both.  And when I say they fit well, I mean, my ABS space bar was often rattling from what I think was it not snugly fitting on the left side to the plastic guide rail it snaps into.  In addition to lubing the guides with a bit of Krytox, and trying both of these spacebars, I realize I have no rattle whatsoever now with either PBT key installed.  They fit straight and feel great.

Onto the colorways.  The 'light greys' I ordered are not exact matches to the HHKB's colors, but they are so close that I can not tell from regular typing distance, and only if I am staring at it from inches away, they are marginally lighter. 

All in all, I'm pretty OCD about conditions of new items I buy, but aside from sitting about .1mm higher than the stock ABS spacebar (which is hardly noticeable, and feels better on my thumb), it sounds like I was very lucky in the quality of my purchase, and I feel bad that so many people had such an awful experience with it.  I hope MD makes everything right for you guys.

If I have time (unlikely), I will take pictures and post my space bars and outline everything I detailed here.

[kawasaki161]

Just got my package and... well... they are ****. Three of the four spacebars I ordered are too warped to function properly and the one that does not stick has a lot of impurities in it (see picture).
I just contacted support, maybe they can get things sorted out for me.

[yomammary]

Just got my package and... well... they are ****. Three of the four spacebars I ordered are too warped to function properly and the one that does not stick has a lot of impurities in it (see picture).
I just contacted support, maybe they can get things sorted out for me.

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My green spacebar is perfect, you got a crappy one :(

[SpAmRaY]

I can't believe the range of quality on these space bars.

I can't help but wonder if through all the adjustments etc if the manufacturer just sent all the space bars made including ones that should have been thrown out.