Author Topic: Copam K-430 converter compatibility  (Read 4043 times)

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Offline Drag0nFly

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Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 07:40:07 »
Hi all!


This is my first post to the forum. After spending quite some time scouring the 'Net for information on this Copam K-430 board (which is listed as "501" on the PCB, btw.), and which erroneously also is listed as using the *XT protocol* on Deskthority, I saw that some members on here either have – or have had – this board at some point; I thought it would be useful to ask for any pointers as to how – and if – anyone got it working on a modern computer (without swapping out internal components)

Obviously, Soarer's XT/AT converter did little for this board, only providing power and making one toggle the Caps Lock LED. No scancodes are seen.

This Copam board is mentioned in https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60253.0 and https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0
where @MandrewDavis did some truly impressive work on it (way beyond my abilities at least; although I would /prefer/ to convert it to USB it would not be feasible for me)

I realize this might be a bit optimistic, but I really like the board and would love to hear any thoughts on getting it working (perhaps with alternative converters, maybe even something which can be firmware-upgraded as I notice there is work being done to reverse-engineer Soarer's original code in his absence)

Some pics of the patient-




Best Regards,

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 09:37:03 »
You like those arrow keys? I couldn't do it. Have you tried TMK? hasu has been slowly adding more and more weird protocol support to it. If your board doesn't work out of the box, you should be able to get scancodes with hid_listen that hasu could use to add support.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 11:07:48 »
Hmm, interesting. If @hasu's converter works with it, I guess it might be that the K-430 requires XT reset which is apparently required for old Type-1 IBM XTs and clones (just a guess, since Soarer's converter did not work at all)

There was a lot of info on the TMK, except where to buy one. I do obviously have Soarer's XT/AT converter, and could potentially flash new fw, but it would be nice to get one directly so as to not eff-up the one that I have. And I cannot seem to find specific info on how to flash it under Linux, which also would be required.

+1 on the arrow keys – wish they were the inverted T-shape. Also miss the delete-key. But the board is quite interesting in that I can ignore certain elements of it.

btw. is it common to have to captcha every message posted, even for registered users? I am getting the same unreadable characters on everything I attempt to post, be it PMs or messages (and the three questions)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 12:20:11 »
Hmm, interesting. If @hasu's converter works with it, I guess it might be that the K-430 requires XT reset which is apparently required for old Type-1 IBM XTs and clones (just a guess, since Soarer's converter did not work at all)

There was a lot of info on the TMK, except where to buy one. I do obviously have Soarer's XT/AT converter, and could potentially flash new fw, but it would be nice to get one directly so as to not eff-up the one that I have. And I cannot seem to find specific info on how to flash it under Linux, which also would be required.

+1 on the arrow keys – wish they were the inverted T-shape. Also miss the delete-key. But the board is quite interesting in that I can ignore certain elements of it.

btw. is it common to have to captcha every message posted, even for registered users? I am getting the same unreadable characters on everything I attempt to post, be it PMs or messages (and the three questions)

Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.

I think that either firmware could be remapped, so you could maybe make right shift an up arrow key on another layer or something, and change the existing up arrow to FN. It does have the delete key on the number pad at least. I'm quite fond of the F keys being on the left side of boards myself.

I think the captcha goes away once you've reached a certain number of posts. I forget the number.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 12:41:49 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I think that either firmware could be remapped, so you could maybe make right shift an up arrow key on another layer or something, and change the existing up arrow to FN. It does have the delete key on the number pad at least. I'm quite fond of the F keys being on the left side of boards myself.

I think the captcha goes away once you've reached a certain number of posts. I forget the number.
The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 March 2021, 12:45:03 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 13:01:57 »
Just as a side-note, before posting this I considered the "terminal" version of Soarer's converter as a possible (desperation) solution (i.e, scancode set 3), but that would probably not do much for this board either.

(btw. – sorry for the somewhat late reply. I was expecting the board to notify in the event of new replies, as I am watching the thread, but I didn't happen.)
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 March 2021, 13:05:21 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 15:10:39 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

The IBM XT itself did not use the reset line, so it is unlikely that converter has run it. I have only heard of maybe 3 or 4 boards that did and I don't own any prebuilt converters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The Deskthority wiki just says it uses the XT interface and nothing more.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I couldn't say that I blame you. I hope whoever gets it doesn't just rip the SKCM blues out of it and trash the rest.

I think that either firmware could be remapped, so you could maybe make right shift an up arrow key on another layer or something, and change the existing up arrow to FN. It does have the delete key on the number pad at least. I'm quite fond of the F keys being on the left side of boards myself.

I think the captcha goes away once you've reached a certain number of posts. I forget the number.
The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...

Matias' keyboards have what you seek.



Unfortunately, the caps aren't the best things in the world and they no longer sell their "tactile pro" (they're actually their clickies) keyboards with a Windows layout. I have found that, at least with the mini boards, this is easy to tweak with desoldering and soldering some resistors on the controller, which Matias kindly prints a diagram for right on it. I'm also a fan of LED windows in the caps.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 05:30:28 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

The IBM XT itself did not use the reset line, so it is unlikely that converter has run it. I have only heard of maybe 3 or 4 boards that did and I don't own any prebuilt converters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The Deskthority wiki just says it uses the XT interface and nothing more.
I see. Sounds like there might be a (remote) chance that it could make a difference if the K-430 did actually use it. But probably not.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I couldn't say that I blame you. I hope whoever gets it doesn't just rip the SKCM blues out of it and trash the rest.

It would be a shame for sure.

A large part of my reason to keep the board was based on the work by another member here, @MandrewDavis, done on his K-430. (In the “Keyboard of the Month” thread – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0)

The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...

Matias' keyboards have what you seek.

Show Image


Unfortunately, the caps aren't the best things in the world and they no longer sell their "tactile pro" (they're actually their clickies) keyboards with a Windows layout. I have found that, at least with the mini boards, this is easy to tweak with desoldering and soldering some resistors on the controller, which Matias kindly prints a diagram for right on it. I'm also a fan of LED windows in the caps.

Their "Tactile Pro" board is one I actually had been looking at earlier; but not too big a fan of the caps on those either.
We'll see how this turns out.

Maybe if I'm stubborn I decide to do something about the Copam after all... (maybe not a drop-in replacement for a converter but something not as time-consuming)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 07 March 2021, 02:53:40 »
Soarer's firmware also works with the XT reset line wired up, supposing that the protocol isn't too weird regardless. My DC-2014 requires it and I have run nothing but Soarer's firmware on a Pro Micro I glued into the case. Those prebuilt converters on Ebay usually don't have the reset line wired because very few keyboards actually need it.
I got mine from TinkerBoy at eBay. I assume the XT reset line is wired, although I don't know for sure.

The IBM XT itself did not use the reset line, so it is unlikely that converter has run it. I have only heard of maybe 3 or 4 boards that did and I don't own any prebuilt converters. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The Deskthority wiki just says it uses the XT interface and nothing more.
I see. Sounds like there might be a (remote) chance that it could make a difference if the K-430 did actually use it. But probably not.

If you worked with hasu in his TMK thread, I'm sure he could get it working.

This should help with both Linux terminal commands for flashing and wiring of your own Soarer's converter. That guide helped me a lot my first time around. Flashing instructions that work for Soarer's firmware should also apply to TMK, and vice versa. You could also be lazy and buy a DC-2014-specific Soarer's converter on Ebay and rewire it for your board. We still don't know whether or not either firmware will work though without some wizardry from hasu, unless you wanted to dive into TMK yourself. I know I haven't.
Appreciate the link - definitely useful. Buying an existing converter would be my choice, but I am not sure if I have time to also rewire anything or dig too deep in order to get it working. I'll probably sell off the board instead and get something which works with an existing converter. (I have 4 other boards that I am refurbishing, which work with Soarer's AT/XT & PS/2 converters)

I couldn't say that I blame you. I hope whoever gets it doesn't just rip the SKCM blues out of it and trash the rest.

It would be a shame for sure.

A large part of my reason to keep the board was based on the work by another member here, @MandrewDavis, done on his K-430. (In the “Keyboard of the Month” thread – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0)

You could ask him if he's got a PCB file for it and see about having one made.

The grouped F-keys on the left are a nice touch, yes. The main thing I am missing on this board, apart from  – erm ;) – *actual XT-compatibility* (wish someone would update the Deskthority page as it is a little misleading) is the inverted-T arrows and light LEDs directly on the CL, NL & SL keys (or at least the CL), I've always preferred those...

Matias' keyboards have what you seek.

Show Image


Unfortunately, the caps aren't the best things in the world and they no longer sell their "tactile pro" (they're actually their clickies) keyboards with a Windows layout. I have found that, at least with the mini boards, this is easy to tweak with desoldering and soldering some resistors on the controller, which Matias kindly prints a diagram for right on it. I'm also a fan of LED windows in the caps.

Their "Tactile Pro" board is one I actually had been looking at earlier; but not too big a fan of the caps on those either.
We'll see how this turns out.

Maybe if I'm stubborn I decide to do something about the Copam after all... (maybe not a drop-in replacement for a converter but something not as time-consuming)

Good luck. I hope you get it working.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 10 March 2021, 08:38:05 »

I see. Sounds like there might be a (remote) chance that it could make a difference if the K-430 did actually use it. But probably not.

If you worked with hasu in his TMK thread, I'm sure he could get it working.

It would be a shame for sure.

A large part of my reason to keep the board was based on the work by another member here, @MandrewDavis, done on his K-430. (In the “Keyboard of the Month” thread – https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96478.0)

You could ask him if he's got a PCB file for it and see about having one made.

Their "Tactile Pro" board is one I actually had been looking at earlier; but not too big a fan of the caps on those either.
We'll see how this turns out.

Maybe if I'm stubborn I decide to do something about the Copam after all... (maybe not a drop-in replacement for a converter but something not as time-consuming)

Good luck. I hope you get it working.

All good suggestions. I'll see if I can get a TMK converter working with it first. Thanks for your input.  :thumb:

(Seems it was impossible for the board to notify on new replies btw. I enabled "For topics and boards I've requested notification on, notify me: immediately", but still no notification is sent.)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 10 March 2021, 09:44:35 »
All good suggestions. I'll see if I can get a TMK converter working with it first. Thanks for your input.  :thumb:

(Seems it was impossible for the board to notify on new replies btw. I enabled "For topics and boards I've requested notification on, notify me: immediately", but still no notification is sent.)


Best of luck to you, again. I really need to break out my Z-150 again and see if hasu needs more testing with that as well. A lot of these weird old boards were unusable otherwise without a total rewire with a Teensy. We should try to get as many ancient boards working with TMK as possible.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 13:42:37 »
Since the XT reset line seems to normally not be wired up, I assume there are some adverse affects if it is wired?
Yes, reset line is critical for some XT keyboards and they don't work without reset line.
If your keyboad has reset line you will need its support on converter probably.

EDIT:  I didn't know meaning of the word "adverse" and I think I read it in wrong way.
Your are right. I believe reset line support doesn't affect because most of keyboards don't have it.
The rest of XT and all of AT keyobards don't have reset line virtually, as the first post says at "Reset pin".
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103648.0
Also check this.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki/IBM-PC-XT-Keyboard-Protocol#keyboard-hard-reset
Hi hasu –

Yes – sorry, I should perhaps have written “assuming no negative effects of having the reset line wired”. If so is the case, which it sounds
like from what you write above, it would be best to have it wired up on the adapter.

I am not sure if the keyboard actually has a reset line (not sure how to verify), only that no activity is seen when using my Soarer converter with it (it behaves the same as when hooked up to an AT-keyboard computer – i.e, only the Caps Lock can be toggled and no activity from the keyboard is seen. Same behaviour also under Linux with the Soarer). I did verify with the person who wired the converter that the XT reset line was not wired on it (and I did not want to open the adapter to re-wire as the adapter came "crimped", not sure if it's the same for your TMKs)

Sounds like the best option would be to get your DIN-5 converter:

IBMPC   AT, XT, PS/2*   DIN-5(180°)   $36   Use adapter cable for PS/2

And then maybe test a newer firmware if the board still is not recognized.

This is again assuming that the adapter can be shipped (to Norway) with current c19 restrictions. I am also considering getting your Sun adapter as well.

I found your thread for the Copam keyboard and subscribe it. You can post further info/question there instead of this thread.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111510.0
Sure, no problem. Thanks for subscribing to it. :)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 22:04:02 »
I think you can ask vendor of the converter whether it has reset line support to make sure.

To know whether the keyboard needs reset line support:
Post pic of bottom side of the keyboard PCB especially around U2 chip  so that we can find reset line perhaps.

As Maledicted already refered you can get debug prints with hid_listen, it would be helpful to know what happens on the converter.
Also post output of hid_listen to share if possible.
TMK products:HHKB Alt  ⌨ConvertersAlps64FC660C AltFC980C Alt

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 07:47:53 »
I have asked, the converter does not have a reset line wired on it.

I'll take a closer look at the PCB to see if I can get some more information, and see if hid_listen reveals anything.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 March 2021, 07:50:53 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 14:36:38 »
Hi hasu,

Output of “hid_listen” (not much sadly)


sudo hid_listen
Waiting for device:...
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT


I tried all keys, nothing is shown on the hid side. Also toggled the Ctrl+Num & Scroll locks (LEDs register), but also nothing on the OS side.

Pictures of the U2 chip. I included both the upper side and the bottom of the PCB.





Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 14:50:15 »
Also tried my second Soarer converter with a PS/2 plug and an AT/XT to PS/2 adapter, same result.

I noticed something interesting though - right after the board powered on the first time, all three LEDs could be toggled on/off without issue (first one being the Caps Lock, the second the Num Lock and third Scroll Lock).

However, after a while (around a minute) Scroll Lock turns off and cannot easily be toggled back. That is, upon repeated tries it might register briefly. So apparently the keyboard goes into some kind of state preventing this. The curious thing of course is that no scancodes are seen either time (after the 'initialization' / ~1min or right after the board is plugged in. Not sure if any of this helps (probably not) but thought I'd include it...

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 19:16:41 »
 Thanks for posting pics.
I guess the keyboard needs reset line support anyway.
But pic of whole the pcb and part surrounded with red line would be helpful to make sure.

The debug output shows the converter recognizes nothing from the keyboard.
These are likely reasons I would suspect:
1) Microcontroller U2 can not start properly without reset line.
2) Failure in keyboard hardware or connection between keyboard and converter(cable?)


Quote
Also tried my second Soarer converter with a PS/2 plug and an AT/XT to PS/2 adapter, same result.
It makes sense totally.
PS/2 converter doesn't reset line support and most of AT-PS/2 adapter cable in the market doesn't use reset line as well.

I would think unstable state of the microcontroller may cause behaviour of LEDs like that.
TMK products:HHKB Alt  ⌨ConvertersAlps64FC660C AltFC980C Alt

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 19:59:29 »
Thanks for posting pics.
I guess the keyboard needs reset line support anyway.
But pic of whole the pcb and part surrounded with red line would be helpful to make sure.

The debug output shows the converter recognizes nothing from the keyboard.
These are likely reasons I would suspect:
1) Microcontroller U2 can not start properly without reset line.
2) Failure in keyboard hardware or connection between keyboard and converter(cable?)
Sounds quite plausible what you write.
I guess there is a chance of hardware issues. I know however of other members on the forum (such as @MandrewDavis) who reported that he could not get it to work either.

I am including some more pictures below. The first one is the leftmost one from your red outline (seen from the top). So the first two (and perhaps parts of the third) should be the most relevant.
(I included basically the whole length of the board.)






Quote
Also tried my second Soarer converter with a PS/2 plug and an AT/XT to PS/2 adapter, same result.
It makes sense totally.
PS/2 converter doesn't reset line support and most of AT-PS/2 adapter cable in the market doesn't use reset line as well.

I would think unstable state of the microcontroller may cause behaviour of LEDs like that.

The microcontroller would probably be in an unstable state, yes. When this occurs it goes back to "normal" after the board has been powered off for a while (all LEDs can then be toggled)
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 March 2021, 20:59:33 by Drag0nFly »

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 23:13:02 »
From the pics the keyboard doesn't use reset line of connector and appears to have reset circuit itself(C1 and D1).

The keyboard doens't appear to need reset line support on converter. It may be just brorken.

Not sure but one of leads of C6 looks to me broken off, btw.
TMK products:HHKB Alt  ⌨ConvertersAlps64FC660C AltFC980C Alt

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 17 March 2021, 08:21:56 »
That sounds like very sad news indeed. :( I was hoping to get the board up and running.

Since MandrewDavis had similar issues with his NIB K-430 (nothing registered on the Soarer), I assumed this was specific to this board.

I can take a closer look at what you mention about C6.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 17 March 2021, 09:05:44 »
Took some more pics of the area around C6, top and bottom, and also a closeup of the connector pads.




Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 01:53:04 »
C6 looks good on the pic.
I mistook shodow or something on previous pic.
TMK products:HHKB Alt  ⌨ConvertersAlps64FC660C AltFC980C Alt

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 06:11:22 »
That is what I thought as well :) I know the camera doesn't always give good closeups which is why I took a few more.

I also sent a message to @MandrewDavis in order to see if he learned anything from hid_listen (or from somewhere else) with his NOS K-430 board which didn't register scancodes, as clearly there is something which prevents it from talking at all. Perhaps the protocol is closer to a terminal board (scan code set 3). I'm just guessing at this point.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 20 March 2021, 08:31:31 »
@hasu – are you saying it would be of no use trying your TMK adapter with this board? I notice that support for several weird protocols have been added to your firmware based on what @Maledicted states above. I guess Soarer's software is now almost 10 years old, and should be more limited in functionality.

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 21 March 2021, 00:45:29 »
The keyboard is likey to have something wrong somewhere assuming your converter is healthy and we didn't miss something.

You should see errors like 'R05' or 'R06' on debug output of hid_listen at least if the keyboard spits out something on signal lines. No erorr means keyboard or converter hardware have defect in most cases. You would want to check the keyboard hardware with multimeter.

That being said, it is still worth trying TMK converter, you may find something useful to debug if we missed something here.
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Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 07:35:00 »
@hasu - thanks, I see. I haven't gotten a reply from the other member of the board who did work on his K-430 (@MandrewDavis), so I assume he is busy.
I can take a closer look on it myself, but unfortunately do not have access to a multimeter in these covid-times, so I'm not sure what I'll find.

I did apply DeOxit on the PCB (I usually do on older boards), but appears to not have had much effect.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 March 2021, 15:55:11 by Drag0nFly »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 14 April 2021, 11:23:02 »
@hasu – I've decided to get one or two of your TMK adapters regardless, since they should be better wrt. upgrading and future compatibility.

How should I proceed if I order from you (assume a PM with the details, and payment via PayPal, etc.?)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 14 April 2021, 19:45:36 »
Hi,
Check the first post and email me. You may want 'IBMPC for AT/XT' converter for this.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72052.0
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Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:29:38 »
I just bought one of these keyboards as well, and wouldnt mind buying a converter and trying to get it to work as well. Any help would be appreciated

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:45:32 »
@latemodel24 – do you have a Soarer converter you can try with it? (It will not work, but to compare what hid_listen sees with what I got on my end)

I have recently sent an order to @hasu for his XT/AT DIN-5 TMK converter. He has noted that it is probably a fault with my board as well, since no activity was seen by hid_listen, but I decided to get one anyway (actually two, as I have a Sun keyboard as well.)

The K-430 is IMO a quite unique board. Only drawback would be the arrow-keys.

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:46:50 »
I do have a xt/at sorarers converter from orihalcon

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 12:48:10 »
Nice. Let me know what you get from hid_listen when trying it. It will also help @hasu wrt. adding support for the Copam.

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 13:26:27 »
How do I find out what hid_listeb is saying

Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 13:42:25 »
How do I find out what hid_listeb is saying

If I recall, there should be a repository where Soarer left a list to translate the codes to keys. I don’t exactly remember where I got it, I just know I have an html link to it.
Nice.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 16 April 2021, 14:21:02 »

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 10:58:51 »
I am getting nothing from hid_listen either

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 11:05:18 »
I take that back, when I plug my model f xt into hid listen, and unplug it and plug the k-430 in the k-430 sends scan codes but it does not work anywhere else, the lock light do work though

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 11:41:25 »
Interesting. Maybe the model F intermittently sets it into 'proper' XT mode, as the Copam appears to do some kind of initialization when on its own.
I only had AT proto keyboards to test with; so I could not reproduce the behaviour.

The lock lights on mine work fine also. They do however seem to be affected by the “initalization procedure” (not sure if it is an accurate description, hence the quotes), as the Scroll Lock tends to stop responding after a while, and comes back on after powercycling the board (replugging after leaving it off for 1-2 mins)

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:20:21 »
I just tried it again, and it sends scan codes as soon as I plug it in currently. It still does not work anywhere else, but in hid listen it works and every key sends scancodes. The lock lights also work fine.
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:23:07 by latemodel24 »

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:23:53 »
But on your first attempt with the K-430 plugged into the Soarer there were no scancodes seen, correct? Would be interesting to see if it behaves the same after the Soarer and the board have been unplugged for a while.

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 12:47:24 »
That is correct

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 15:39:22 »
I left it unplugged for a good while and it still picks it up consistently.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 16:10:22 »
You mean you disconnected the K-430 from the adapter for a good while, or both the Soarer and the K-430?

Offline latemodel24

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 18:53:14 »
Both

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 19 April 2021, 19:21:24 »
That is interesting – now I am wishing I had an XT keyboard to test with as well before hooking up the K-430.  :thumb:

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 20 April 2021, 12:41:45 »
That is interesting – now I am wishing I had an XT keyboard to test with as well before hooking up the K-430.  :thumb:

AT/XT switchable boards can be had cheaply on Ebay, although they may not all follow the XT protocol to a t. I wish F XTs were still relatively cheap.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 22 April 2021, 13:17:20 »
Thanks for the suggestion @Maledicted. I've come to the conclusion that almost everything is over-priced at eBay currently though, but will take a second look. (After their recent changes I am also one of those who automatically incurs high import+VAT costs when ordering from them, so I mainly prefer private sellers due to this.)

It would be nice to see keycodes being registered from the Copam, although this certainly is only part of the solution and appears to be caused by either the adapter or the board being set into a different mode after first successfully communicating with a proper XT-proto board.

Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 14:15:12 »
@hasu – I received your AT/XT adapter this week and tested it just now. (Not tested the Sun yet.)

The curious thing is that nothing gets printed when the keyboard is hooked up using "hid_listen" - just endlessly "Waiting for device.."
LEDs light up as usual, so the board has power to it.

Switched the adapter with my previous Soarer AT/XT, and it prints the same identification string as before –

Code: [Select]
id_listen
Waiting for device:...
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT

The host also registers this as a new keyboard device with the Soarer (currently testing on OSX). When switching back to the TMK adapter nothing is registered, although it does get power over USB.

Thinking this was a Copam issue I tested again with an existing, known-good AT keyboard - same result. Switched back to the Soarer, it identifies it correctly and keys are registered and the keyboard is useable.

Am I doing something wrong? To me it almost appears like there is no firmware programmed on the unit(?)

Offline hasu

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 15:26:49 »
Can you try other USB port, other USB cable and windows computer if possible?

I believe it was shipped with default firmware flashed.

But you can download default fimware here.
http://www.tmk-kbd.com/tmk_keyboard/editor/unimap/?ibmpc_usb_32u4

And see this for how to flash.
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/wiki#flash-firmware


With TMK IBMPC converter firmware it should show  debug output like below.

Code: [Select]
Waiting for new device:......
Listening:


TMK:e473e8ce/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I764 wFF A1801
ERR:11 ISR:0000 X2302
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Offline Drag0nFly

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Re: Copam K-430 converter compatibility
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 18:42:38 »
Holy crap - that was weird. :eek: Sorry about that @hasu.

After trying *four micro-USB cables* (including /two/ that I regularly use to sync data from my Sony Xperia phone), the adapters register with the last cable I tried, which interestingly enough was the _Logitech K800 recharger cable_ (i.e, not intended for use with data signals, only to charge a wireless keyboard!)

Also tried the Sun adapter: it works perfectly. Nice to be able to use such a "non-PC" keyboard on newer PCs. :-) (I first thought it had the same issue as only Caps Lock, Num Lock, etc. registered with hid_listen. That is until I tried it on the machine directly under X (I monitored hid_listen earlier in a terminal window over ssh). So in short it also works properly with the Logitech cable.

But anyway – on to the topic at hand. This is what is registered with the Copam K-430 plugged in:

Code: [Select]
sudo hid_listen
Waiting for device:..........................
Listening:


TMK:e473e8ce/LUFA


USB configured.

Keyboard start.
I174 wFF A1212
ERR:11 ISR:0000 X1713

Obviously I did not expect it to just magically work. Not sure if those error codes mean anything to you. The Num Lock LED and the Caps Lock LED can be toggled (as with the Soarer). No other keys register.

I still haven't obtained an XT board that I could test together with this K-430 to replicate the behavior seen by @latemodel24 (who reported that his K-430 initially output no scancodes with hid_listen *until an XT board was plugged in*, and the K-430 plugged back, in which case scancodes were seen in hid_listen)

I can do some more testing on this tomorrow, but I am still a little flabbergasted about the micro-USB cable issue (affecting several cables which I know worked on their own, at least against my phone) :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 May 2021, 21:04:10 by Drag0nFly »