Model M Rivet Replacement

[msiegel]

yeah!! go ripster!


beautiful documentation too

[wellington1869]

lovely pics, great documentation.

looks like it *does* sound different --- and better.

The goal is to get a little lighter feel with much less ping (my mini is the worst of my BS boards). So I just bought a Boscom (Unicomp) and will cannibalize the 122 springs and hammers.

This is a great idea - so you'll basically have rolled your own version of the much desired "unicomp mini". Brilliant.  Man, thats a lot of work though!

[talis]

Funny that the Canadian uses 4-40 Imperial hardware, and the American uses metric =P.

[DarthShrine]

Really nicely documented! So many pretty pictures to gawk at. Almost makes me want to do it myself.

[itlnstln]

Strong work, ripster.  That black, straight cable looks nice, too.

[rdjack21]

Really great mod and documentation. Thanks so much.

[kishy]

Wondering...could you get away with just doing a single row of bolts along the middle of the keyboard (say just above the home row)?

The plastic piece seems to want to stay flatter than the metal panel is curved so it seems it would hold itself safely in place and not need the bolts. That would reduce labour and time needed for this by a huge amount.

[ch_123]

Ripster reckons you can get away with only 9 of them. Im not sure which nine it is though.

[msiegel]

Wondering...could you get away with just doing a single row of bolts along the middle of the keyboard (say just above the home row)?

The plastic piece seems to want to stay flatter than the metal panel is curved so it seems it would hold itself safely in place and not need the bolts. That would reduce labour and time needed for this by a huge amount.

interesting idea... the model f's pcb is held in place (and in shape) by a similar technique -- just 2 metal pins in the middle-row of the board

[kishy]

Ripster reckons you can get away with only 9 of them. Im not sure which nine it is though.

I suppose you could do along the top and along the bottom. Since the metal sheet is curved and firm, it would sort of pinch the plastic in a position where it was properly curved throughout.

interesting idea... the model f's pcb is held in place (and in shape) by a similar technique -- just 2 metal pins in the middle-row of the board

Hmm...what kind of flex is there in that design?
 It occurred to me that a problem with my idea might be rattling/flexible parts.

[ch_123]

Hmm...what kind of flex is there in that design?

None. But that is different because there's no membrane to be attached to the bottom plate. I has a hard, thick PCB that slots into the bottom plate.

[kishy]

None. But that is different because there's no membrane to be attached to the bottom plate. I has a hard, thick PCB that slots into the bottom plate.
(images)

Wow...that's quite different (I knew it was different but not exactly how much).

[chimera15]

None. But that is different because there's no membrane to be attached to the bottom plate. I has a hard, thick PCB that slots into the bottom plate.

Show Image

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I bought an xt f when I first started looking for keyboards.  I took it apart and it's been laying in a box in pieces for years now.  I wonder if there's a way to cut the pcb apart and make a self contained switch from the pcb and top part.....

That's what we really need, a self contained buckling spring switch.

[chimera15]

I looked at my board today, it's ultra thin, I think it'd be pretty easy to cut apart.  I noticed the pads were offset on the back, kind of strange, not sure where I would make the cut, and how I could put the switch back together again to make it work....

[ak_nala]

Another consideration with the capacitive IBM boards is the question of how sensitive they might be to any sloppiness introduced by making them into individual switches, etc.

The original PCBs are careful to screen against any cross-capacitive effects by wrapping each pad and signal trace (on the backside) and then the whole board (both sides) in ground traces. So cutting it apart, making individual switches, rearranging them into a new layout, and mounting them to a new board or wiring them up might introduce some problems, capacitively speaking, that might have to be addressed.

It would definitely take some experimentation to find out - but it would be a noble experiment, indeed.

Of course, what we really need is a self-contained buckling beam switch

[chimera15]

Another consideration with the capacitive IBM boards is the question of how sensitive they might be to any sloppiness introduced by making them into individual switches, etc.

The original PCBs are careful to screen against any cross-capacitive effects by wrapping each pad and signal trace (on the backside) and then the whole board (both sides) in ground traces. So cutting it apart, making individual switches, rearranging them into a new layout, and mounting them to a new board or wiring them up might introduce some problems, capacitively speaking, that might have to be addressed.

It would definitely take some experimentation to find out - but it would be a noble experiment, indeed.

Of course, what we really need is a self-contained buckling beam switch

Well, I'd use a new controller completely, anyway, for instance the ultra mini bluetooth hack I was considering something like that.   A bluetooth buckling spring compact board really would be the ultimate.

[chimera15]

That one is easy.  If you are Japanese that is.  Look up the IBM A01.

Ah that's interesting, but pretty rare huh especially in the us?

[ch_123]

The Brother Switches in the A01 and 003 aren't self contained - they share a common membrane.Considering that the membrane is the weak link a Model M-like design, I really wonder what it was that they were trying to accomplish.

[christophocles]

Wow, awesome!  I think this guide is exactly what I need.

I have a model M that had some Dr. Pepper spilled into it..  I have tried cleaning with alcohol, soaking the entire thing in distilled water, and then drying it out, and it still acts funky.  Many of the keys seem to be shorted together (press m and get "nm", computer beeps a lot when plugged in, etc).

If I cut all the rivets off, take out the membranes and clean them, and then reassemble with this nuts/bolts mod, is there a chance that it may work again?  Or could the membranes themselves be damaged by the current from plugging it in?  Maybe the PCB is damaged, I dunno..  But if there's a chance I could save it, I may go ahead with the surgery..  What do you all think?

[nowsharing]

This is a great tutorial Ripster, very well done. Thanks for documenting it so well. I'll be taking this project up in a few months.

[ocdonkb]

very nice write-up/pictures. I'm very tempted to try this too!

[exia]

how many model M have at least one broken rivet? what % of broken rivets are needed before this mod is required?

[ak_nala]

how many model M have at least one broken rivet? what % of broken rivets are needed before this mod is required?

I would say this very much depends on where the broken rivets are and what the density of broken rivets are in a given area.

If you only have 10 broken rivets, but they are all in one corner it would be a very different problem than if the 10 were distributed randomly around the whole plate. The former would probably be non-functional in the affected corner, while the latter would likely have no problems at all.

Also, since the as-designed distribution of rivets is not even in the first place, some areas will likely be more sensitive to them being missing or damaged (stretched or cracked) than others.

[exia]

I had to block ripsters avatar image. it is not the best looking avatar. i am just telling the truth.

[M13]

First off Ripster, was that a "Hitchhiker's Guide" reference I just saw there? Also, thanks for the excellent tutorial on how to do this mod. I've done it on a few M's and got my methods down enough to test it out on my M13's for audible reasons (no broken rivets yet). There are some differences and precautions that needed to be made and taken, but all hardware and tools mentioned in the mod will still work the same.

First off, make sure you MOVE your TrackPoint cable out of the way because a couple of the rivets are going to be right below it!! Also, when drilling out the rivets, don't drill out the one that is directly below the TrackPoint. It could break it or mess up the sensitivity and cause trailing/pulling. Below is a pic of the rivet to skip. It's the one with a circle around it. The hole above the text wasn't a rivet to begin with. (I decided to use the thicker and heavier backplate from an older model M donor board lying around since the rivet holes are the same. That's why my bolts don't have exposed threads or washers.)


Also, Just wanted to point out that anyone with a M or M13 with drain channels shouldn't have any problems if there is reinforcement ribs along the middle of the keys. Below is a pic to show.


You will have problems with the bottom row of rivets though.. There's a wall that runs along the bottom of the keyboard for directing any liquid flow to the drain channels. This wall is directly above the bottom row of rivets. I actually skipped using nuts and bolts in the row completely. I don't notice any noise difference in that area vs. the rest at all. Pic below shows what I'm talking about. I actually drilled it out anyway to see if I was correct and would be able to try other methods.


All in all, the experiment was a success. My keyboard is tighter and uniform feeling and much more quiet! The only other tips I could add to my post or this thread is that the use of a drill press would be ideal to ensure your bolts are straight, otherwise, you may have a few crooked or off center ones that are tight and rub when putting the metal backplate back on. Also, if you want to make sure you can still keep the drain channel features of the keyboard, use some 1 or 5 minute epoxy, rubber cement, or paint around the screw heads as well as behind the stabilizer bar area for your spacebar and any 2x keys that may use the stabilizer bar. Oddly enough, that area is open for liquids to get in, but on the older M's without the drain channels, it's not. Design flaw or feature? You decide.

[sandy55]

Also, if you want to make sure you can still keep the drain channel features of the keyboard, use some 1 or 5 minute epoxy, rubber cement, or paint around the screw heads as well as behind the stabilizer bar area for your spacebar and any 2x keys that may use the stabilizer bar. Oddly enough, that area is open for liquids to get in, but on the older M's without the drain channels, it's not. Design flaw or feature? You decide.

If my memory serves correct, M with drain channel has just one stabilizer bar for a space bar only. Other large keys don't have a stabilizer bar. So actually you just need to seal two holes arround plastic made catchers which support the space bar stabilizer.

example;  before  and  after
Don't know why there are such holes irrespective of water proof design of the board.

[ak_nala]

Well, I started out thinking there must be a way to do this with Imperial hardware but this was the big barrier.  You have to squeeze these two plates together and yet not have anything stick out below the metal plate more than about 2mm (see the earlier pics of the indents in the case bottom).

1/4" bolts are too short and 3/8" too big...

...8mm is perfect

In looking around I see there are 5/16" 2-56 screws available (SAE equivalent of Metric M2's) - some even with a black finish right out of the box.

Just seems like SAE is a whole lot easier to get than metric here in the US, as well as being quite a bit cheaper. We're talking around $3.75 shipped per hundred on eBay for regular zinc coated steel pan head screws in this size. At 5/16" long these would be only two-and-a-half thousands of an inch shorter than an 8mm M2, so seem like they could do the trick.

[ak_nala]

Nuts are less than $2 for 500 including shipping from one seller, so might just order them first to see if they will work w/o a washer (which might screw with the allowable thickness in places if I wanted to use the original case).

[ak_nala]

According to McMaster-Carr the width of one of your M2 nuts is 4mm (I assume across the flats) - any idea what the ID of the rivet holes in the Model M backplate are?

[ak_nala]

Actually, looking things up it appears that #2-56 screw and nut diameters are a couple hundredths of an inch larger than the metric M2s you used (yet use the same drill bit sizes for drilling and tapping), so theoretically we should be good to go regardless.

All parts ordered on eBay for less than $6 total shipped (zinc plated - 100 screws and 500 nuts). I'll let you know how it goes.

[lal]

I recently repaired a M mini using bolts and nuts.  I ordered the parts from a German "model builder" shop.

• 50 x Linsenschraube Kreuzschlitz M2x8
  
• 50 x Senkschraube M2x8 for the front row
  
• 50 x Unterlegscheibe 2,2mm
  
• 50 x Flache Sechskantmutter M2
  
• Bohrer 1,6mm
  

Might not be the cheapest shop but they had everything I needed in one place.  I removed the few left rivets with diagonal pliers and drilled 1,6mm holes which is enough to screw the bolts in and hold them in place.  For the M mini one 50 piece bag of everything would have been enough, don't know but you probably need more than 50 Linsenschrauben for a full-size M.

[lal]

Achja, und man kann per Bankeinzug zahlen.  Schnelle Lieferung.  Funzt hervorragend

[brkz]

I did this mod to fix up an 139120, however I used screws instead of nuts and bolts. 2.9x6.5mm screws and a 2mm drill bit worked great. The screws will very slightly protrude but will not interfere with operation at all.

Ended up having to take the board apart again twice but it only takes 5 minutes to remove the screws because you don't need to turn it over.

The first two times I had a few keys that either failed to register as the spring buckled (but would do so when key was pressed further) or that would register twice. The problem was (cat) hair caught between the membranes. I found wiping the membranes down with a damp cloth worked well. Hold them up against the light to check for hairs before reassembling. Keep cat well away...

[Xuan]

58 for a fullsize.

Acht und funfzig.  (I'd put the umlaut in but I'm lazy)

I think it's fünfzig und acht.
No clue of german but I learned that fünf means five (Slaughterhouse five, great book and movie)

[mrbill]

Has anyone ever tried putting Dynamat, sorbothane, or a similar product either all over the back of the metal plate in a Model M, or at least at all of the contact points between the plate and the case bottom?

[itlnstln]

I've thought about it, but never tried it. You can get a Dynamat-like material from Home Depot called Protecto-Wrap. You can find it in the roofing section. It comes in a 8" high roll. I used to use it in car stereo installations with great results.

[itlnstln]

I agree.  Any time I would work with Protecto-Wrap, I would make sure that the installation was permanent and I would always precut and even do "mosiac" work to ensure things I needed to get to later (nuts, bolts, etc.) were easily accessible.  The thing to remember is that the goal is to increase mass, not completely cover the plate, per se.  Personally, I would work in small chunks, leaving easy access to the rivets in case they need repair.  The better option is to do the nut/bolt mod, then do the Protecto-Wrap so the rivets are no longer a problem.

[itlnstln]

Done well, you should still have easy access to the nuts/bolts.  A good box cutter, or even scissors, makes Protecto-Wrap a breeze to work with.

[skcheng]

Getting ready to do this mod.   I'll probably use a high speed handpiece to drill through the rivets.  

Is any Loctite recommended on the nuts?   For example, do the nuts have a way of working themselves loose since only a few threads are engaged??

Any other words of advice to make this mod less painful??    Now I see that some of the cases are black and some are beige.  Do they make beige Rustoleum??   And how visible are the screw heads if not painted to match??  I'm looking btwn the keys on my IBM Mini and I've having a hard time picturing how the screws would be visible through the gaps btwn the keycaps?

[brkz]

I found it helps a lot to use a file to really smooth down the old studs, otherwise your drill bit will tend to veer away from the middle.

Make sure to support the plastic or it will bounce away and/or crack. I used an old towel folded up a few times.

I used screws which I imagine is a lot less fiddely since you only need to work on one side of the board. 2.9x6mm, pre-drill 2mm (no need to go all the way thru)

[skcheng]

Alright....finished up with work.   Anyone else working Fri/Sat this week??  Or am I the only loser???

So I'm not a cheapie like Ripster and I spring the extra 5c for stainless screws from McMaster-Carr.   Nuts and washers ordered at the same time.   Much cheaper than my local True Value which charges .25c for each screw.  What a rip-off and they wonder why the internet biz is booming???   Actually, they simply didn't have what I needed and I'm good at following rules.   What Rips sez, I do  :-)))

I tried drilling ONE hole with the drill bit and my lab handpiece  (sort of like a high end $1500 dremel) and I'm like, "forget this".   This sucks.  So I whip out my torque controlled electric hand piece and a couple of diamonds with the same diameter as the Rip recommended drill bit and I start working.  With water spray, I make a big mess, but no shavings to clean up and zero issues centering the holes.   Looks like this:



Better to have steady fingers than steady hands.   About 15-20 minutes later, I'm drilled but not filled.   I shaved down the studs just so that they would be even.   I'm just OCD that way.  

Next up was driving the bolts in and STOOPID me decided to do this on my lap while watching my son play Call of Duty on his Xbox.   Big mistake.   I ended up cracking the frame by leaning on it too hard.   For me, this was the most time consuming portion of the mod.   Good thing I was doing the nuts/bolts mod, but having a cracked frame turned out to be a bit of a headache as we shall see.  

As Ripster described (and I obviously ignored), PLEASE pay attention to the order in which the sheets and rubber pad go.   More on that later.  

My metal plate was pretty scratched up from the sloppy chisel work, so I bead blasted the entire plate.   Much nicer looking!!!  I considered priming and painting the plate, but then common sense took over and I wisely decided NOT to.   No one will ever see the plate.   But bead blasted and CLEAN made me happy.

My next mistake was simply dumping all of the hammers/springs onto a large plate.   Somehow, some of the springs got tangled and it caused me fits.   Luckily I was able to slowly work the suckers apart.   But not before I had a call in to Chucky at Unicomp to confirm that he had hammers/springs for sale!!  

Next problem was my busted frame.   Made it tough to keep the hammers lined up.  When the frame would buckle, the hammers would move.   I had to start over 2x for this reason.  

Okay, so once again ignoring Rip's fine recommendations, I put the entire thing back together, plug it in and  ........ nothing??!!??   I'm thinking STOOPID blue cube PS/2 adapter.  So I try another computer.......nothing again?   Turns out that I had the sheets put back in the wrong order.   DOOOOHHH.   So now all of the nuts come off and I reset everything to try again.   This time I place about 4 nuts back on to confirm that I have it right LOLOL.    And I tried the bolts on tight and tighter.   Don't quote me on this, but I like it TIGHT.   With the bolts tight, typing is a reassuring confident experience with what feels like immediate actuation.    Click becomes a clunk and it sure feels nice!!   The sound is muffled and the feel is much less squirrel-ly.   I picture that spring wobbling around before it hits the membrane which wobbles around before this mod.   Now it's a direct solid motion.  Athleticism at its best.  

To complete my homage to Rip, I paint the screws and I liquid nails and paint the crack in the frame.  And I use flat black high temp paint to accommodate my blazing fast typing speed  ;-))   And I add the screws/washers in the anterior portion of the plate.  No corners cut here.  

Some more pics:



Franken Mini:





And some glamour shots of the finished product to showcase how I'm truly a frustrated interior decorator wannabe:





Maybe it was due to the multiple broken rivets, but my Mini sounded Ping and Pingier.   Now it sounds the same from keystroke to keystroke.  

Big shout out to my man Rip for posting the equivalent of a "Keyboard Mods for Dummies" thread.  I wish I actually read all of it, but I'm just "slow" that way.  

Anyway, I hope everyone is inspired now to pick up some 4mm nuts and 8mm bolts.   Get drilling.......it's really worth it.  

Maybe I could convince Chucky at Unicomp to do this for me.  I'll pay $40 instead of the usual $30 LOL.  

skc

[Nonmouse]

Why not use a drill press to drill out the studs with good alignment?  It seems so... obvious...

[bigpook]

I think I am cheaper. I used a blank PCI slot as the chisel which is less than ideal.
I had to cut and sand down the plastic detritus that was left over, which isn't so hard, just takes more time.
Having a drill press would be sweet, but I don't have a drill press. I used an awl to set the point for drilling. This worked well.

Once I get the hardware, I will put it all back together and see if it works. If not. I will pay closer attention to Ripsters instructions : )

I will post pics of the gerber, pci blank and keyboard if I have success, otherwise, I will
skulk away silently. And all you will hear is "RTFM, man, RTFM".

[skcheng]

Why not use a drill press to drill out the studs with good alignment?  It seems so... obvious...

I'm guessing that a drill press would work just fine.   But the frame is curved and visibility is tough.  If you're off just a few mm with your angle, you'll need to either drill a bigger slot in the metal frame, or leave the bolt out.  I was slightly off on my angle on one or two of the bolts and they rubbed the metal frame a bit while I was putting everything back together.  

The 2nd one I do will be MUCH easier.  And I can see why Rip didn't want to shave down the studs.   Makes it a little harder to center if you do.

skc

[didjamatic]

Has anyone tried metal pop rivets?

[brkz]

I'd advise against pop rivets as well. Too much force and it's entirely likely you will need to take everything apart again at some point (or in my case, 4 times in a row). A single cat hair on the membranes is enough to give problems like keys registering twice or needing excessive force to register. If done right, the key will actuate (make electrical contact) exactly when the spring buckles.

[bigpook]

Well, I got it back together and it actually works. It doesn't feel much different but than again, I was using a relatively new unicomp spacesaver that didn't have any popped plastic rivets.
Ripsters guide is key and a great resource if you go this route.

I used a PCI blank as the chisel and a Gerber multi tool as a hammer. Don't laugh, it worked. It made a bit more work though as I had to nibble the plastic down and use some sandpaper to smooth it out. In the end, that part really wasn't so bad. Drilling the holes was tedious, but I marked a pilot with an awl to set the bit. So far it is going good.

The hardest part for me was the fricking spring/hammers. It doesn't take much to upset them and I had to take the board apart after finding three keys that didn't click.
The second time around went better but you REALLY have to be careful to keep the plates together as you get the first few screws in. If you let the plates seperate, even slightly, you run the risk of the spring/hammer getting misaligned. It really sucks to have to take out all the screws....


Aside from that it went well and is a good mod to do. I think others have said it before where the plastic rivets are the weakest link for the Model M. Using metal hardware eliminates that weakness, totally.

[bigpook]

: ) I would think such a large chisel would make short work of a recalcitrant plastic rivet.

I did the same thing with the board upside down, there is no other way to do it. The membrane and sheets and back plate all lined up properly, but until you get a half dozen or so screws in any bump can/will move the spring/hammers.

[bigpook]

I need to type on it some more. I have a unicomp customizer that I can compare it too. But to be fair, there were no rivets broken on the spacesaver. Doing the mod was more of an exercise to see if I could do it, the keyboard didn't really need it.

Having said that, it might be interesting to play with tightness of the nuts (no pun intended) I would think tighter nuts would make the keys heavier and looser nuts would make the keys lighter.

[skcheng]

Interesting that you feel no difference.   In my case, the board felt more solid, the typing more damped and overall feel much more even.  I did have 13 broken rivets before I modified my my Mini.  Before this mod, I would compare the Mini to an old basketball court with uneven bounces.  Especialy on the right side by the enter key and the numpad.  Now it's much tighter.  I did screw each nut down fairly tightly  I probably have about 3 threads exposed across the entire board.  

The only reason I had a tough time with the springs/hammers was due to the crack in my frame.  If the crack buckled, I would need to disassemble the keyboard and start again.  

Congrats on getting it done.   The next one will be much easier.  

skc