Author Topic: What is it about Filco keyboards?  (Read 12995 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 12:36:09 »
There was a huge surge in popularity a piece back and everyone bought Filco keyboards (all with Cherry browns if memory serves) and then, after a while, I put mine on eBay. All the haters came out and reposted every post where I wrote anything good about the keyboard to throw it in my face.

Now, months later, it seems like everyone with a Filco either sold it or has it up for sale. So was I really that wrong to sell mine since most people that bought one have followed suit?

Lets look at it once — everyone who bought a Filco, myself included, was majorly impressed with the build quality, the cost of getting one from Japan to home isn't that high, and they are available with the Cherry browns. Why is everyone selling them?

I sold mine because the browns, while feeling good and being fun to type on, just gave me too many typos. I could not get the accuracy out of it I need to write. That is the only reason.

So why did everyone sell their's? Was it the switch like me or did you have another reason?

Offline Waves77

  • Posts: 174
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 12:43:11 »
I'd never sell mine, absolutely still love it, it's my main board along with the HHKB Pro 2.

I"m actually looking at getting a backup (will probably wait for the tenkeyless to be back in stock, I've spent quite a bit on boards lately :))
Current collection:
\'91 Model M (1391401), \'93 1391401, \'91 Model M (industrial 1394946), Dell AT101W, Apple Extended II (M3501), Cherry G84-4100, Filco FKB 104M/EB, Macally 96, Das III Pro, HHKB Pro 2.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 13:06:19 »
I knew you'd chime in. What do you think, why does everybody sell these keyboards while admitting they are fantastic? Notice, I still recommend the Filco to people.

Quote from: Waves77;9056
I've spent quite a bit on boards lately :))


You're telling me I'm typing on $300! But this Topre 86 is all I type on now and I'm completely happy with it.

Offline Waves77

  • Posts: 174
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 14:13:58 »
Quote from: xsphat;9057
I knew you'd chime in. What do you think, why does everybody sell these keyboards while admitting they are fantastic? Notice, I still recommend the Filco to people.


It's less of an obvious transition imho. You go from rubber to alps or BS and it's like... wow! Huge difference, very noticeable. The browns are a lot more subtle, you really start appreciating only after a week or two (with a lot of hours of typing).

Also, they're crappy for gaming (I just game a bit every now and again on my psp).


Quote
You're telling me I'm typing on $300! But this Topre 86 is all I type on now and I'm completely happy with it.


$10 bucks say that you will be typing on something else before xmas!
Current collection:
\'91 Model M (1391401), \'93 1391401, \'91 Model M (industrial 1394946), Dell AT101W, Apple Extended II (M3501), Cherry G84-4100, Filco FKB 104M/EB, Macally 96, Das III Pro, HHKB Pro 2.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 14:27:33 »
Time will tell, but this is a really nice keyboard. I can see me switching out for some clicky action once in a while, though. Remember, I kept coming back to the HHKB Pro 2 for the sound, feel and switches and this one feels better than the HHKB Pro 2 did. I think this one might have some staying power. The Topre might be my favorite switch overall, so the next spendy 'board I'll get likely will be a Topre 101 which I'll keep at work. Another one that looks really tempting is the Topre 106S with 30g switches for every key, but it only comes in a Japanese layout.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 14:31:23 »
Maybe I'll start collecting Topres ...

Offline Eclairz

  • Posts: 308
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 14:45:19 »
No idea why they are selling they're filco, i just wish they sold some in the UK, I love cherry key switches as well as my alps, I still prefer blue but I heard filco have really nice metal keycaps sounds mighty cool but dunno about feel. Filco are alot more smaller than other full size keyboards which make them even more appealing almost no gaps between numpad and main keys
Lenovo ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard
RealForce 45g UK 88UB
FILCO Majestouch TenKeyPad

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 16:09:20 »
What do you mean by it "seems like everyone" is selling theirs? You mean there is a lot on ebay for sell or you mean people on this board?

I love mine and still use it. I still think the topre switch sound the best out of all the ones I have tried, but I still use my filco at home and have no intentions of selling it.
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 16:52:30 »
Mine is the only one I know of that hit eBay.com. What I mean is, there have been like five or six of them for sale in the last couple months that I know of, and most of them were from people on this board who just bought one.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 17:58:52 »
I have a das III with cherry blues that didn't work out for me, yes it isn't the brown switches but still.
Maybe its more of a cherry switch thing then a Filco thing?
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline D-EJ915

  • Posts: 489
  • Location: USA
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 18:10:40 »
must be a flavour of the month kind of thing

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 18:23:42 »
yeah, it was for me.....
Call me crazy, while I didn't like the blues, I would still like to try something with cherry browns.
I just don't want to spend a whole lot to do it.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline Waves77

  • Posts: 174
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 19:21:10 »
Quote from: bigpook;9076
yeah, it was for me.....
Call me crazy, while I didn't like the blues, I would still like to try something with cherry browns.
I just don't want to spend a whole lot to do it.


Very different switches, but yeah, you should definitely try one ;)

And they're cheap compared to a HHKB anyways!
Current collection:
\'91 Model M (1391401), \'93 1391401, \'91 Model M (industrial 1394946), Dell AT101W, Apple Extended II (M3501), Cherry G84-4100, Filco FKB 104M/EB, Macally 96, Das III Pro, HHKB Pro 2.

Offline Waves77

  • Posts: 174
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 19:26:12 »
BTW, did you mean the 3 Filco's in the geekhack martketplace?

Two kids strapped for cash and a gamer that needs something beefier than browns (it's definitely not a gamer's board). I don't see a lot of people complaining about this board, maybe I missed it.
Current collection:
\'91 Model M (1391401), \'93 1391401, \'91 Model M (industrial 1394946), Dell AT101W, Apple Extended II (M3501), Cherry G84-4100, Filco FKB 104M/EB, Macally 96, Das III Pro, HHKB Pro 2.

Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 19:39:58 »
I think the brown cherries are great.  But no keyswitch, IMHO, trumps the HHKB key layout.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 19:52:07 »
: ) Well, I am still fond of the BS keyboards, but I am still on the HHKB. The key layout is tits for me. So I am with iMav on that one.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline zillidot

  • Posts: 58
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 19:54:53 »
Quote from: xsphat;9055
So why did everyone sell their's? Was it the switch like me or did you have another reason?

I still have mine. The occasional key bounce (press key once, two letters appear) gets a bit annoying, but apart from that I have no complaints.

But I do prefer the Topre keyswitches, so it'll probably end up in storage if I get my hands on a black Realforce 86. :)
My keyboards:
Realforce 87U (all 55g)
HHKB Pro 2 (black on black)
Filco Majestouch (n-key rollover, brown cherries)
Unicomp Customizer 101 (black with black keys)

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 19:55:35 »
As for the filcos for sale here, 1 is wireless and 2 are not. All have the numpad. I would rather not have the numpad. And I am not so crazy about the wireless either, but thats me.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 24 September 2008, 23:39:56 »
It's just weird. That's all.

Offline parisnight

  • Posts: 18
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 25 September 2008, 11:17:23 »
I'm taking Cherry browns with me down with the ship.  That is until I can get try a Topre switch.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 25 September 2008, 18:18:03 »
Quote from: iMav;9080
I think the brown cherries are great.  But no keyswitch, IMHO, trumps the HHKB key layout.


I just wanted to add that while the key layout is ideal, the type of keys are just as important. Other wise I would still be using the HHKB lite. While the lite has the ideal key layout, the rubber dome keys ruin an otherwise great keyboard.
My personal pref is BS keys, but the Topre keys are quite nice.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 25 September 2008, 19:21:32 »
Quote from: bigpook;9092
I just wanted to add that while the key layout is ideal, the type of keys are just as important. Other wise I would still be using the HHKB lite. While the lite has the ideal key layout, the rubber dome keys ruin an otherwise great keyboard.
My personal pref is BS keys, but the Topre keys are quite nice.

Well yes...the key feel has to be acceptable.  But I forego what I believe to be superior keyswitches for the HHKB's key layout.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 25 September 2008, 19:40:47 »
And just for clarity, what keyswitches do you consider superior?

needed to add that for me the BS keys come first and the Topre would be second. I don't have a third choice, the blue cherrys didn't make it for me.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 25 September 2008, 20:05:13 »
Rubber domes!


Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 25 September 2008, 23:52:26 »
Quote from: bigpook;9094
And just for clarity, what keyswitches do you consider superior?

Buckling springs, blue and brown Cherry switches.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 08:34:44 »
I didn't like the blue cherry switches but have not tried the browns. I still have an open mind and would like to try one out just so I would know.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline parisnight

  • Posts: 18
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 10:07:53 »
Quote from: xsphat;9095
Rubber domes!



rubber domes with springs under them ala Topre..
My gut says that any rubber between you and activation will have a negative influence.  On the other hand, the membrane on the BS never really is involved in activation.  Cherries and Alps don't use rubber.

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 11:40:08 »
Quote from: parisnight;9100
rubber domes with springs under them ala Topre..
My gut says that any rubber between you and activation will have a negative influence.  On the other hand, the membrane on the BS never really is involved in activation.  Cherries and Alps don't use rubber.


I didn't think the rubber was involved in the key actuation on the topre switch either. From the pictures I was under the impression it was just there to hold the cone spring in place.
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline parisnight

  • Posts: 18
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 12:28:03 »
It is the compression and snap of the rubber cup that causes the tactile sensation in the Topre switch.  BS rely on just the spring for the snap.  Alps and Cherries rely on plastic nipple sliding on spring metal.  I don't know Topre but after many years in membrane ignorance, any rubber in the process seems suspicious, no matter how thin.  "Nothing gets between me and my jeans"

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 12:44:08 »
You got one thing wrong — Cherry switches do have springs, but you are right in saying Alps don't, and if the rubber got in the way of any part of the process, the Topre switch wouldn't feel this good or be as snappy.

And take it from a father, sometimes rubber between "your jeans" and other things can be a good thing ... If I had a thin rubber dome over my spring one fateful night, I wouldn't be married with a child right now.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 14:00:42 »
so the topre key actually works off of a rubber dome? I see the spring underneath it but still.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 14:11:16 »
Well, it looks from xsphats avatar that the topre key sits directly over the rubber dome, the spring is underneath it, but still.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 14:50:09 »
Yes it does. It's function is to hold the spring in place. They're just thin little rubber cones.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 14:51:19 »
iMav has posted pictures of the HHKB Pro tore down but I can't find them right now.

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 15:53:41 »
Quote from: xsphat;9103
You got one thing wrong — Cherry switches do have springs, but you are right in saying Alps don't, and if the rubber got in the way of any part of the process, the Topre switch wouldn't feel this good or be as snappy.

And take it from a father, sometimes rubber between "your jeans" and other things can be a good thing ... If I had a thin rubber dome over my spring one fateful night, I wouldn't be married with a child right now.


ROFL
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 21:39:31 »
Quote from: xsphat;9108
iMav has posted pictures of the HHKB Pro tore down but I can't find them right now.

Page 4 of this thread.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 26 September 2008, 23:35:53 »
Thanks.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 08:01:05 »
This should take you straight away to the picture showing the rubber domes on the HHKB

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=181&page=4

Thanks for the pointer.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 10:38:11 »
This link will work even better.  

;)

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 11:37:30 »
I wonder how those rubber domes will hold up over time. I have IBM model M's that are 20 years old and look to last another 20 years if not longer. A testament to the design quality no doubt.  I am on the HHKB now and am loving it, I wonder what the reasonable life span could be. I realize its silly since we really have no idea what we will be using 20 years from now, the keyboards we are using now will no doubt be in the dustbin of history. Except for the Model M : ). I would imagine that working Model M's would still be desireable, and probably incredibly expensive to get....
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 11:51:29 »
Quote from: bigpook;9118
I wonder how those rubber domes will hold up over time. I have IBM model M's that are 20 years old and look to last another 20 years if not longer. A testament to the design quality no doubt.  I am on the HHKB now and am loving it, I wonder what the reasonable life span could be. I realize its silly since we really have no idea what we will be using 20 years from now, the keyboards we are using now will no doubt be in the dustbin of history. Except for the Model M : ). I would imagine that working Model M's would still be desireable, and probably incredibly expensive to get....

Well they do give the rated lifespan cycles on the box, just like cherry does with there switches.

Cherry switches with a click mechanism (blue & brown) are rated at 20 million life cycles. Cherry switches without the click mechanism (blacks) are rated at 50 million and Topre switches are rated at 30 million.

I'm not sure where BS boards rate in their lifespans.

I would guess how long the board actually last would be dependent on how it is used. Gamers are really hard on boards because they push the same buttons over and over again (WASD). I'm only guessing though.
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 12:02:40 »
Topre is a huge name in Japanese keyboards and they have been around a while, so I wouldn't be too surprised if these keyboards last a long time.

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 12:21:05 »
The rubber dome in the Topre switch provides the tactile part. It's not just to hold the spring in space. The spring can't provide any tactile feeling at all.

The tactile sensation is subtle so the rubber dome has to be thin. It couldn't push the key back up quickly on its own. Thus the spring.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 12:34:35 »
So then what do the springs do? If they don't even need to be there then why would they put them there? Just to increase costs?

If the spring is there, it has to get depressed, in which case it would alter the feel of the switch. It's not like the spring drops down during the stroke only to magically be depressed as the switch bottoms so it can return the stem to the normal position.

Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 12:44:47 »
Pull a spring and rubber dome out of your keyboard and see for yourself.

Perhaps I'll do this myself and document for you guys.  Obviously, both the rubber dome and the spring contribute to the tactile feel of the keyboard.  The rubber domes are very thin...but it makes since that they provide some sort of feedback...otherwise the feel would be entirely linear.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 12:53:18 »
Word. I'm not pulling apart my 86, though.

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 14:06:32 »
Quote
If the spring is there, it has to get depressed, in which case it would alter the feel of the switch.

If you're just looking at the absolute pressure values yes. But if you're comparing the switch to a linear switch (that's what we basically do here) it's all about the relative influence of the tactile part.

A Cherry brown without the notch would be a linear switch. The notch adds a relative tactile element.

It's a bit different with the Topre because the rubber dome has spring qualities as well (just not enough to push the keycap back well).

Hard to explain. :(

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 14:26:00 »
not to be a twit, but could you explain the difference between absolute and relative?
enquiring minds would like to know  : )
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 14:43:55 »
Quote
could you explain the difference between absolute and relative?

Pulling my leg? :)

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 14:59:47 »
Well, the notch in the Cherry brown adds a small bump to an otherwise linear pressure curve. The position of this bump (i.e. the absolute values) depends on the type of spring. However, the bump will always look the same, having a relative influence on the curve.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:28:20 »
OK ...

So what's your point? I thought you were saying the Topre switch is identical to a rubber dome / membrane mechanism because of the rubber cones. My bad.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:33:21 »
But I still think the spring adds to the tactile, which means touch or feel, part of the switch. A spring by design adds resistance which is a huge part of the feel of a switch. And I doubt the thin rubber sleeve overpowers the spring in resistance.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:35:30 »
sorry, I was just trying to put it into context with your post.
to be honest, it confused me.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:41:11 »
Is it that the spring and rubber dome work in tandem? I would think the spring would be enough resistance on the way down, and provide enough force on the way back up. Maybe the rubber dome acts as a damping device.
I press the key on the HHKB and there is a slight amount of resistance on the downstroke. Thats the spring, I think.But the rubber dome is still there so it must contribute also. No?
Correct me here if you would.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:42:28 »
Quote from: bigpook;9139
sorry, I was just trying to put it into context with your post.
to be honest, it confused me.

Pook, I wasn't talking to you. Quite frankly, this post is confusing me too. I thought we were talking about how a chit-ton of Filco owners have sold off their nearly brand-new keyboards.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #55 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:45:07 »
Quote from: bigpook;9140
Maybe the rubber dome acts as a damping device.


That makes perfect sense.

Offline vils

  • Posts: 247
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:47:19 »
I just paid the shipping for two new filcos (brown cherry and black alps). So I'm possibly running against the herd...

/Vils
It\'s the glass pipe fallacy. You can only believe that if you\'re on crack.

Offline karlito

  • Posts: 157
    • http://altitudegame.com
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #57 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 15:51:39 »
im selling my filco cause i got the tenkeyless version o_O.  tenkeyless is my nervana.  I would like to try a torpre 86 but im not going to pay that much.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 16:16:29 »
My next keyboard hopefully will be the filco tenkeyless with brown switches. I want to try one out and see.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #59 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 16:18:28 »
xsphat, that post was for lowpoly. The rubber dome is there for a reason, otherwise the designer/engineer would not have put it there. My challenge is figuring out how it interacts with the keystroke. In no way am I comparing this to a rubber dome keyboard.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline Ulysses31

  • Posts: 288
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #60 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 17:11:02 »
Quote from: vils;9143
I just paid the shipping for two new filcos (brown cherry and black alps). So I'm possibly running against the herd...

/Vils


I've only ever seen a white-alps Filco; where did you find one with black-alps?

Offline vils

  • Posts: 247
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #61 on: Sat, 27 September 2008, 17:30:13 »
It\'s the glass pipe fallacy. You can only believe that if you\'re on crack.

Offline Ulysses31

  • Posts: 288
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 28 September 2008, 10:26:55 »
They keep raising the price of the Filco (wired, English, brown switches) on beNippon.  Doesn't seem to be linked to the value of the dollar.  Last week it was $105.  Yesterday it was $123 and now it's $124.  Seems like there's still a lot of demand for this, despite most members here letting go of theirs.

Offline Waves77

  • Posts: 174
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #63 on: Sun, 28 September 2008, 10:55:24 »
Quote from: Ulysses31;9154
They keep raising the price of the Filco (wired, English, brown switches) on beNippon.  Doesn't seem to be linked to the value of the dollar.  Last week it was $105.  Yesterday it was $123 and now it's $124.  Seems like there's still a lot of demand for this, despite most members here letting go of theirs.


It's worth keeping an eye on their prices, my HHKB dropped $20 when I finally pulled the trigger. Not totally sure they go by the $ price though, I always pay the equivalent of yens.
Current collection:
\'91 Model M (1391401), \'93 1391401, \'91 Model M (industrial 1394946), Dell AT101W, Apple Extended II (M3501), Cherry G84-4100, Filco FKB 104M/EB, Macally 96, Das III Pro, HHKB Pro 2.

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #64 on: Sun, 28 September 2008, 11:35:38 »
I ordered my Topre 86 at $301 (with shipping and everything). When I completed the payment, I was billed $290.

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 28 September 2008, 13:46:09 »
Quote from: xsphat;9136
So what's your point? I thought you were saying the Topre switch is identical to a rubber dome / membrane mechanism because of the rubber cones. My bad.

No, my point was that the rubber dome contributes to the switch feeling. That was all. It went downhill when I tried to explain it. :)

Quote from: bigpook;9140
Is it that the spring and rubber dome work in tandem? I would think the spring would be enough resistance on the way down, and provide enough force on the way back up. Maybe the rubber dome acts as a damping device.
I press the key on the HHKB and there is a slight amount of resistance on the downstroke. Thats the spring, I think.But the rubber dome is still there so it must contribute also. No?
Correct me here if you would.

The rubber dome contributes. I tried to google some force curves but was unsuccessful. And I don't have my bookmarks here.

So, if you look at the HHKB logo:



Look at the red line. Flip it upside down and you have something similar to the hhkb pressure curve. Connect the start and end point with a straight line and you have a linear curve. That's what a spring would give. But the pressure increasing, then diminishing, that's the rubber dome.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #66 on: Sun, 28 September 2008, 18:13:43 »
Quote from: lowpoly;9160
Look at the red line. Flip it upside down and you have something similar to the hhkb pressure curve. Connect the start and end point with a straight line and you have a linear curve. That's what a spring would give. But the pressure increasing, then diminishing, that's the rubber dome.

I bet you're a big conspiracy theorist, aren't ya?

Offline xsphat

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2371
  • Location: 'Sconi FTW
  • Enlightened
    • Dan Newman, Writer
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #67 on: Sun, 28 September 2008, 18:15:37 »
Next thing you know, you'll have a mullet and be looking through ancient libraries searching for clues ...

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 29 September 2008, 04:29:07 »
As this is the internet, I might already have a mullet.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 29 September 2008, 04:52:15 »
Didn't find the link with all the force curves but found this pic in my HHKB folder:



That's the HHKB Pro force graph. I mean, it's pretty obvious that they used that for the logo?

It's also on this page (together with some nice HHKB pics):

http://dreamwiz.bb.co.kr/wiz/pd/pr_list.php?board_mode=4&pd_id=632388

Again, without the rubber dome this would be a straight line until 4 millimeter. At that point the line will always go vertical because the keycap bottoms out.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline graywolf

  • Posts: 134
    • http://www.graywolfphoto.com/
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #70 on: Tue, 30 September 2008, 16:42:46 »
So.... Does that spring add crispness to the key feel? Or does it have that dead rubber feel? Is there any kind of click, or does it just go thump when it bottoms out? Inquiring minds want to know.

Offline Korbin

  • Posts: 131
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #71 on: Tue, 30 September 2008, 16:48:58 »
The best way to describe it is that it feels like a thump when it bottoms out, compare to a "clack" with mechanical boards.

The spring seems like it gives the keystroke a more consistent feel throughout the stroke. I'm only only speculating though.
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #72 on: Tue, 30 September 2008, 18:23:57 »
Don't know about crispness and I don't think it has a dead rubber feel either.  I could be wrong here but the HHKB is silent, unless you bottom out the keys, and only if the key is hit with enough force. However, there is some noise generated as you type quickly, but its not a clicky sound. Its more like a thock thock thock.
YMMV, as my hearing is not so good, it will mostly sound different to you.
There seems to be a fair amount amount of resistance as you begin to press down(which puts me at odds with the above mentioned post). It feels pretty conistent all the way down too. For me it is oddly pleasant experience. Its up there with my BS keyboards.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline Ulysses31

  • Posts: 288
What is it about Filco keyboards?
« Reply #73 on: Mon, 06 October 2008, 07:23:01 »
Just a heads up; the Filco Tenkeyless with brown switches is finally back in-stock.

http://benippon.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=15660