What is it about Filco keyboards?

[xsphat]

There was a huge surge in popularity a piece back and everyone bought Filco keyboards (all with Cherry browns if memory serves) and then, after a while, I put mine on eBay. All the haters came out and reposted every post where I wrote anything good about the keyboard to throw it in my face.

Now, months later, it seems like everyone with a Filco either sold it or has it up for sale. So was I really that wrong to sell mine since most people that bought one have followed suit?

Lets look at it once — everyone who bought a Filco, myself included, was majorly impressed with the build quality, the cost of getting one from Japan to home isn't that high, and they are available with the Cherry browns. Why is everyone selling them?

I sold mine because the browns, while feeling good and being fun to type on, just gave me too many typos. I could not get the accuracy out of it I need to write. That is the only reason.

So why did everyone sell their's? Was it the switch like me or did you have another reason?

[Waves77]

I'd never sell mine, absolutely still love it, it's my main board along with the HHKB Pro 2.

I"m actually looking at getting a backup (will probably wait for the tenkeyless to be back in stock, I've spent quite a bit on boards lately )

[xsphat]

I knew you'd chime in. What do you think, why does everybody sell these keyboards while admitting they are fantastic? Notice, I still recommend the Filco to people.

I've spent quite a bit on boards lately )

You're telling me I'm typing on $300! But this Topre 86 is all I type on now and I'm completely happy with it.

[Waves77]

I knew you'd chime in. What do you think, why does everybody sell these keyboards while admitting they are fantastic? Notice, I still recommend the Filco to people.

It's less of an obvious transition imho. You go from rubber to alps or BS and it's like... wow! Huge difference, very noticeable. The browns are a lot more subtle, you really start appreciating only after a week or two (with a lot of hours of typing).

Also, they're crappy for gaming (I just game a bit every now and again on my psp).

You're telling me I'm typing on $300! But this Topre 86 is all I type on now and I'm completely happy with it.

$10 bucks say that you will be typing on something else before xmas!

[xsphat]

Time will tell, but this is a really nice keyboard. I can see me switching out for some clicky action once in a while, though. Remember, I kept coming back to the HHKB Pro 2 for the sound, feel and switches and this one feels better than the HHKB Pro 2 did. I think this one might have some staying power. The Topre might be my favorite switch overall, so the next spendy 'board I'll get likely will be a Topre 101 which I'll keep at work. Another one that looks really tempting is the Topre 106S with 30g switches for every key, but it only comes in a Japanese layout.

[xsphat]

Maybe I'll start collecting Topres ...

[Eclairz]

No idea why they are selling they're filco, i just wish they sold some in the UK, I love cherry key switches as well as my alps, I still prefer blue but I heard filco have really nice metal keycaps sounds mighty cool but dunno about feel. Filco are alot more smaller than other full size keyboards which make them even more appealing almost no gaps between numpad and main keys

[Korbin]

What do you mean by it "seems like everyone" is selling theirs? You mean there is a lot on ebay for sell or you mean people on this board?

I love mine and still use it. I still think the topre switch sound the best out of all the ones I have tried, but I still use my filco at home and have no intentions of selling it.

[xsphat]

Mine is the only one I know of that hit eBay.com. What I mean is, there have been like five or six of them for sale in the last couple months that I know of, and most of them were from people on this board who just bought one.

[bigpook]

I have a das III with cherry blues that didn't work out for me, yes it isn't the brown switches but still.
Maybe its more of a cherry switch thing then a Filco thing?

[D-EJ915]

must be a flavour of the month kind of thing

[bigpook]

yeah, it was for me.....
Call me crazy, while I didn't like the blues, I would still like to try something with cherry browns.
I just don't want to spend a whole lot to do it.

[Waves77]

yeah, it was for me.....
Call me crazy, while I didn't like the blues, I would still like to try something with cherry browns.
I just don't want to spend a whole lot to do it.

Very different switches, but yeah, you should definitely try one

And they're cheap compared to a HHKB anyways!

[Waves77]

BTW, did you mean the 3 Filco's in the geekhack martketplace?

Two kids strapped for cash and a gamer that needs something beefier than browns (it's definitely not a gamer's board). I don't see a lot of people complaining about this board, maybe I missed it.

[iMav]

I think the brown cherries are great.  But no keyswitch, IMHO, trumps the HHKB key layout.

[bigpook]

: ) Well, I am still fond of the BS keyboards, but I am still on the HHKB. The key layout is tits for me. So I am with iMav on that one.

[zillidot]

So why did everyone sell their's? Was it the switch like me or did you have another reason?

I still have mine. The occasional key bounce (press key once, two letters appear) gets a bit annoying, but apart from that I have no complaints.

But I do prefer the Topre keyswitches, so it'll probably end up in storage if I get my hands on a black Realforce 86.

[bigpook]

As for the filcos for sale here, 1 is wireless and 2 are not. All have the numpad. I would rather not have the numpad. And I am not so crazy about the wireless either, but thats me.

[xsphat]

It's just weird. That's all.

[parisnight]

I'm taking Cherry browns with me down with the ship.  That is until I can get try a Topre switch.

[bigpook]

I think the brown cherries are great.  But no keyswitch, IMHO, trumps the HHKB key layout.

I just wanted to add that while the key layout is ideal, the type of keys are just as important. Other wise I would still be using the HHKB lite. While the lite has the ideal key layout, the rubber dome keys ruin an otherwise great keyboard.
My personal pref is BS keys, but the Topre keys are quite nice.

[iMav]

I just wanted to add that while the key layout is ideal, the type of keys are just as important. Other wise I would still be using the HHKB lite. While the lite has the ideal key layout, the rubber dome keys ruin an otherwise great keyboard.
My personal pref is BS keys, but the Topre keys are quite nice.

Well yes...the key feel has to be acceptable.  But I forego what I believe to be superior keyswitches for the HHKB's key layout.

[bigpook]

And just for clarity, what keyswitches do you consider superior?

needed to add that for me the BS keys come first and the Topre would be second. I don't have a third choice, the blue cherrys didn't make it for me.

[xsphat]

Rubber domes!

[iMav]

And just for clarity, what keyswitches do you consider superior?

Buckling springs, blue and brown Cherry switches.

[bigpook]

I didn't like the blue cherry switches but have not tried the browns. I still have an open mind and would like to try one out just so I would know.

[parisnight]

Rubber domes!

rubber domes with springs under them ala Topre..
My gut says that any rubber between you and activation will have a negative influence.  On the other hand, the membrane on the BS never really is involved in activation.  Cherries and Alps don't use rubber.

[Korbin]

rubber domes with springs under them ala Topre..
My gut says that any rubber between you and activation will have a negative influence.  On the other hand, the membrane on the BS never really is involved in activation.  Cherries and Alps don't use rubber.

I didn't think the rubber was involved in the key actuation on the topre switch either. From the pictures I was under the impression it was just there to hold the cone spring in place.

[parisnight]

It is the compression and snap of the rubber cup that causes the tactile sensation in the Topre switch.  BS rely on just the spring for the snap.  Alps and Cherries rely on plastic nipple sliding on spring metal.  I don't know Topre but after many years in membrane ignorance, any rubber in the process seems suspicious, no matter how thin.  "Nothing gets between me and my jeans"

[xsphat]

You got one thing wrong — Cherry switches do have springs, but you are right in saying Alps don't, and if the rubber got in the way of any part of the process, the Topre switch wouldn't feel this good or be as snappy.

And take it from a father, sometimes rubber between "your jeans" and other things can be a good thing ... If I had a thin rubber dome over my spring one fateful night, I wouldn't be married with a child right now.

[bigpook]

so the topre key actually works off of a rubber dome? I see the spring underneath it but still.

[bigpook]

Well, it looks from xsphats avatar that the topre key sits directly over the rubber dome, the spring is underneath it, but still.

[xsphat]

Yes it does. It's function is to hold the spring in place. They're just thin little rubber cones.

[xsphat]

iMav has posted pictures of the HHKB Pro tore down but I can't find them right now.

[Korbin]

You got one thing wrong — Cherry switches do have springs, but you are right in saying Alps don't, and if the rubber got in the way of any part of the process, the Topre switch wouldn't feel this good or be as snappy.

And take it from a father, sometimes rubber between "your jeans" and other things can be a good thing ... If I had a thin rubber dome over my spring one fateful night, I wouldn't be married with a child right now.

ROFL

[iMav]

iMav has posted pictures of the HHKB Pro tore down but I can't find them right now.

Page 4 of this thread.

[xsphat]

Thanks.

[bigpook]

This should take you straight away to the picture showing the rubber domes on the HHKB

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=181&page=4

Thanks for the pointer.

[iMav]

This link will work even better.  

[bigpook]

I wonder how those rubber domes will hold up over time. I have IBM model M's that are 20 years old and look to last another 20 years if not longer. A testament to the design quality no doubt.  I am on the HHKB now and am loving it, I wonder what the reasonable life span could be. I realize its silly since we really have no idea what we will be using 20 years from now, the keyboards we are using now will no doubt be in the dustbin of history. Except for the Model M : ). I would imagine that working Model M's would still be desireable, and probably incredibly expensive to get....

[Korbin]

I wonder how those rubber domes will hold up over time. I have IBM model M's that are 20 years old and look to last another 20 years if not longer. A testament to the design quality no doubt.  I am on the HHKB now and am loving it, I wonder what the reasonable life span could be. I realize its silly since we really have no idea what we will be using 20 years from now, the keyboards we are using now will no doubt be in the dustbin of history. Except for the Model M : ). I would imagine that working Model M's would still be desireable, and probably incredibly expensive to get....

Well they do give the rated lifespan cycles on the box, just like cherry does with there switches.

Cherry switches with a click mechanism (blue & brown) are rated at 20 million life cycles. Cherry switches without the click mechanism (blacks) are rated at 50 million and Topre switches are rated at 30 million.

I'm not sure where BS boards rate in their lifespans.

I would guess how long the board actually last would be dependent on how it is used. Gamers are really hard on boards because they push the same buttons over and over again (WASD). I'm only guessing though.

[xsphat]

Topre is a huge name in Japanese keyboards and they have been around a while, so I wouldn't be too surprised if these keyboards last a long time.

[lowpoly]

The rubber dome in the Topre switch provides the tactile part. It's not just to hold the spring in space. The spring can't provide any tactile feeling at all.

The tactile sensation is subtle so the rubber dome has to be thin. It couldn't push the key back up quickly on its own. Thus the spring.

[xsphat]

So then what do the springs do? If they don't even need to be there then why would they put them there? Just to increase costs?

If the spring is there, it has to get depressed, in which case it would alter the feel of the switch. It's not like the spring drops down during the stroke only to magically be depressed as the switch bottoms so it can return the stem to the normal position.

[iMav]

Pull a spring and rubber dome out of your keyboard and see for yourself.

Perhaps I'll do this myself and document for you guys.  Obviously, both the rubber dome and the spring contribute to the tactile feel of the keyboard.  The rubber domes are very thin...but it makes since that they provide some sort of feedback...otherwise the feel would be entirely linear.

[xsphat]

Word. I'm not pulling apart my 86, though.

[lowpoly]

If the spring is there, it has to get depressed, in which case it would alter the feel of the switch.

If you're just looking at the absolute pressure values yes. But if you're comparing the switch to a linear switch (that's what we basically do here) it's all about the relative influence of the tactile part.

A Cherry brown without the notch would be a linear switch. The notch adds a relative tactile element.

It's a bit different with the Topre because the rubber dome has spring qualities as well (just not enough to push the keycap back well).

Hard to explain.

[bigpook]

not to be a twit, but could you explain the difference between absolute and relative?
enquiring minds would like to know  : )

[lowpoly]

could you explain the difference between absolute and relative?

Pulling my leg?

[lowpoly]

Well, the notch in the Cherry brown adds a small bump to an otherwise linear pressure curve. The position of this bump (i.e. the absolute values) depends on the type of spring. However, the bump will always look the same, having a relative influence on the curve.