Author Topic: The future of mice?  (Read 11666 times)

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Offline LuX

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The future of mice?
« on: Fri, 25 March 2016, 19:20:07 »
I've thought about getting, or rather making, a new mice. More precisely a custom trackball. While the project is slowly becoming a reality - still a lot of ideas being tested - I recently stumbled upon the easter sale of a local electronics store. They had the SteelSeries Sentry on sale; 50e. Not bad considering they retail at 250e, so I ordered one.

For those who don't know, the Sentry is a device that tracks your eyes and translates them to coordinates on your monitor. SteelSeries marketed them as a device that allows you to figure out better what you were looking at during a game and learn from that info. Basically useless for others than pro-gamers...
Also, for those who don't know, the company Tobii is behing both the Sentry and their own EyeX. Tobii markets the device more as an input device. As far as hardware goes, Sentry and EyeX should have the same hardware, but some say the Sentry performs better, go figure.

I heard about the SteelSeries Sentry back when it was first introduced. At first I got excited about it, but after watching a couple lame videos of guys playing games and getting some visual feedback of what they are looking at, I kinda lost my interest, as it appeared the tracking wasn't all that accurate. After looking at the price I didn't even want to look further so I forgot all about it. But now that it's on sale, I looked it up once again, and wow has the idea progressed. This video has also shown me much more clearly the potential of this device and made me legit excited.

It may not be the most accurate mouse ever, but even just controlling the mouse with your eyes and performing clicks and scrolls with the keyboard is really cool, even if just for casual use. But imagine more professional cases where you might not need to use the mouse accurately, just frequently, this could really be a wrist and time saver.

What do you guys think? A revolution, cool, or just a gimmick? Anyone got any experience of it as an input device?

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 25 March 2016, 21:32:14 »
Idk about the eye tracking. Stephen Hawkins might be pleased to play some GTA  :))

Some kind of ultra high resolution mighty mouse would be cool to see. I would definitely try a 5k+ dpi trackpad.

I think people shy away from trackballs because those kinds of mice need maintenance.

Or...


A custom trackball would be awesome though! Or at the very least a replacement case for the L-Trac  :)

Offline Findecanor

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 03:13:06 »
I live close to Tobii R&D headquarters and applied for work there a few years ago. Not really because I believed in the technology but because I was interested in getting to try it out and because I had a long-term interest in working within the field of user-interface technology and doing cutting-edge R&D.
I didn't get the job, and their excuse was insulting. I wish that Tobii would burn in Hell. But anyway ...

I did try mouse emulation, eye-assisted mouse acceleration and a few different demos and games, but I just found it weird. My eyesight is not a limb for manipulating a joystick - it is my input device. Its use is just unnatural. Where I place my eyes is relative to my locus of thought and having me constrain where I point my eyes is a  constraint my mind. Plus, of course it causes some heavy eye strain when used for that.
To me it appeared as if they had this cool tech and was looking desperately for a use for it rather than a use-case first and looking to develop the technology. I could not complain about the accuracy though.

I think that the "killer app" for eye-tracking will not be using eye-tracking directly but using it to increase the fidelity of something else.
For instance, I think that eye-tracking would be very useful for robots and computers that talk - as it will be able to look the user in the eye and notice when the user is not looking the robot in the eye: this being something quite significant in real human-to-human interaction.
Maybe it could be use to adjust the focus in VR headsets and 3D screens to compensate for mismatch between virtual distance and focus distance -- which is now giving people eye strain.
It could be used in "Minority Report" / Hololens - type "Augmented Reality" interfaces together with Kinect / Leap Motion - like sensors for finding the user's focus and line of sight, to more accurately determine the intentions of gestures in open air: which object the user is intending to manipulate and how.

Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 05:29:02 »
Thanks for the detailed response Findecanor. I agree that using your eyes as a joystick is a horrible application, and that is not quite what I'm looking for. I don't need or want a handicap solution for using the mouse, instead simply an extension to simple hands-free gestures to mousing. Imagine you're filling out a form, adding information here and there. Instead of having to go from KB->mouse->KB->mouse->KB... you could just look at where you want to type next and press a button on the keyboard to make the cursor go there. A lot of people are looking for solutions to minimize the travel from keyboard to mouse, and this technology could pretty much solve it.
As for using it as an active mouse, I don't know, it might be interesting but in the long run could be straining. But certainly I wouldn't use my eyes to model 3D or something like that. However browsing, typing in a document, programming, etc. where the mouse is only a secondary input, this could be really good.

As for games, better applications could be:
- Depth of field adjusts based on where you look at
- Secondary aim, much like in the demonstration when you are driving and shooting in GTA or the Assassins creed demo
- Fade UI elements like the mini-map when you are not looking at it or make it larger/smaller as your eyes go closer to the map. In a lot of FPS's the minimap takes a large portion of your FOV, so why not have it hidden or more opaque when you don't need it, ie. you are not looking at it
- Make games more interactive, where your eyes are involved in the game as well. For example looking at certain things in a game could have the game respond to you accordingly, because rarely do you move the center of the screen to where you are actually looking at, this way it would feel much more natural

Offline Coreda

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 06:20:21 »
Thinking generally about the topic title it made me consider it would be nice if there were a sensor that detected finger/hand movements while hovering slightly above the keyboard, like your hands do before typing.

That way your mouse hand wouldn't leave the keyboard at all while also not physically having to click anything.

Offline davkol

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 08:38:20 »
SteelSeries marketed them as a device that allows you to figure out better what you were looking at during a game and learn from that info. Basically useless for others than pro-gamers...
…and usability testers/researchers.

It may not be the most accurate mouse ever, but even just controlling the mouse with your eyes and performing clicks and scrolls with the keyboard is really cool, even if just for casual use. But imagine more professional cases where you might not need to use the mouse accurately, just frequently, this could really be a wrist and time saver.
Exactly. Eye tracking combined with "focus follows cursor" makes a mouse/trackball obsolete for a large portion of window management; moreover, it can significantly improve scrolling (with the right choice of algorithms) and get rid of the PITA, that current common implementation of text selection is.

Offline vvp

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 09:35:40 »
Eye tracking combined with "focus follows cursor" makes a mouse/trackball obsolete for a large portion of window management; ...
So do tilling window managers. This is not to disagree with what you are saying. It is just to point out that there is even easier way to do extremely efficient windows management with keyboard only. Whoever wants to do efficient window management needs to try a  tilling window manager.

Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 13:31:50 »
Thinking generally about the topic title it made me consider it would be nice if there were a sensor that detected finger/hand movements while hovering slightly above the keyboard, like your hands do before typing.

That way your mouse hand wouldn't leave the keyboard at all while also not physically having to click anything.

I'm not sure if I understand quite what you mean. Like have a virtual trackpad in-air? What might be cool is hand gestures that you could perform just above the keyboard like wave the hand to scroll or pinching to zoom etc. Kinda like Kinect but with that you'd have to rise your hand and do large gestures I think.

Perhaps even better would be capacitive keycaps on the homing keys so you could effectively use the cap tops as mini trackpads for gestures and micro adjustments.


…and usability testers/researchers.

Exactly. Eye tracking combined with "focus follows cursor" makes a mouse/trackball obsolete for a large portion of window management; moreover, it can significantly improve scrolling (with the right choice of algorithms) and get rid of the PITA, that current common implementation of text selection is.

Yeah, eye tracking is nothing new and has been used for years in different applications. In those cases they often use the Tobii glasses to for example study what consumers look at in adverts.
Steelseries is the first company to really bring the technology to consumers, but IMO did a bad job marketing it. If you look at any ad about the sentry, it's almost always just about streamers and pro gamers. Basically they market it as a passive demonstrator rather than a new kind of input device.
Similarly many game developers have chosen to poorly implement the tech in their games, mostly just as a joystick moved by your eyes. That makes it seem more like a gimmick than something actually usable, besides handicapped people.

Tobii has only recently really began to properly develop the technology for normal computer users and team up with OEMs. I can honestly see it becoming more popular in the future once the price has gone down enough and more companies choose to make use of it. Take for example tablets and other portable devices.

Nice idea on the window management. So you'd just look at the window you want to read from and it becomes active so you can scroll and type on it.


So do tilling window managers. This is not to disagree with what you are saying. It is just to point out that there is even easier way to do extremely efficient windows management with keyboard only. Whoever wants to do efficient window management needs to try a  tilling window manager.

I don't see how the two cancel each other out.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 15:13:16 »
Thinking generally about the topic title it made me consider it would be nice if there were a sensor that detected finger/hand movements while hovering slightly above the keyboard, like your hands do before typing.

That way your mouse hand wouldn't leave the keyboard at all while also not physically having to click anything.
I remember a video a few years ago where a guy at Microsoft Research had mounted a simple webcam above the monitor looking down at the keyboard. The keyboard was black - and the guy was white so his hands were whiter.
The software looked for loops - a pinching gesture, and used that to move the mouse.

Blackberry Passport is a phone with a keyboard where the keys are also a touchpad. It senses pan gestures and gestures that are specific to text editing. The keys are of course very flat and very shallow -- not meant for touch typing.
I think also that I have seen a patent for touchpad on a space bar, to be used as a scrollwheel .. but I'd rather have a real scrollwheel.

Eye tracking combined with "focus follows cursor" makes a mouse/trackball obsolete for a large portion of window management; moreover,
Nice idea on the window management. So you'd just look at the window you want to read from and it becomes active so you can scroll and type on it.
There are lots of use-cases for looking at a window and not wanting to change focus to it.
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 March 2016, 15:27:52 by Findecanor »

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 26 March 2016, 19:03:32 »
High resolution DPI magic mouse or touchpad is what I meant to type. I wonder if this will catch on. I'm thinking people will opt for virtual reality headsets. Still neat regardless

Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 27 March 2016, 05:36:34 »
There are lots of use-cases for looking at a window and not wanting to change focus to it.

Actually a good point. Maybe this is where the software kicks in so that it detects if you want to actually change focus. Either way it's a little pointless to argue on the details at this point. I may try to program my own drivers for the Sentry so I can comfortably use it with my keyboard. Depends how complex it is.


High resolution DPI magic mouse or touchpad is what I meant to type. I wonder if this will catch on. I'm thinking people will opt for virtual reality headsets. Still neat regardless

I personally don't like the lack of tactility of touch devices. They do have their strenghts especially in touch screen devices, for nearly the same reasons as eye tracking.
I don't see how VRHs replace using the mouse with your eyes. Not to mention that eye tracking is much more cheaper and more importantly portable, meaning that it already has a lot of benefits over VRH. This isn't strictly about gaming either, but rather efficiency and ergonomics, all being provided by eye tracking.

For gaming I can see VRHs becoming popular among gamers. However they are still, and probably will remain, too expensive for the masses, as well as the lack portability making them somewhat of a niche product for those who have a good enough computer to run VRHs properly to begin with. Again, I don't see how one would replace the other.

Offline Coreda

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 27 March 2016, 07:21:11 »
I'm not sure if I understand quite what you mean. Like have a virtual trackpad in-air? What might be cool is hand gestures that you could perform just above the keyboard like wave the hand to scroll or pinching to zoom etc. Kinda like Kinect but with that you'd have to rise your hand and do large gestures I think.

Perhaps even better would be capacitive keycaps on the homing keys so you could effectively use the cap tops as mini trackpads for gestures and micro adjustments.

I imagined it more like moving and clicking a regular mouse but without the mouse, and with the hands in the regular keyboard-ready position hovering slightly above the board. Think of it a bit like 'air mousing'. My hands naturally assume a curved shape when above the keyboard so it seemed like an interesting concept.

I remember a video a few years ago where a guy at Microsoft Research had mounted a simple webcam above the monitor looking down at the keyboard. The keyboard was black - and the guy was white so his hands were whiter.
The software looked for loops - a pinching gesture, and used that to move the mouse.

The MS Research team comes up with all kinds of interesting tech that never sees the light of day.

Personally I find graphic tablet pens to be the most ergonomic for mouse use.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:45:48 »
By the way, I notice that Microsoft Hololens (which is their brand name for their Augmented Reality framework in Windows) incorporates gaze input.
The gaze-driven feature that I find to be the most interesting is detection of when a user has not looked at an object the program has judged as interesting, and choosing to direct the user towards looking at that object.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 April 2016, 17:48:06 by Findecanor »

Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 04:42:03 »
The gaze-driven feature that I find to be the most interesting is detection of when a user has not looked at an object the program has judged as interesting, and choosing to direct the user towards looking at that object.
Yeah the hololens based on demo videos looks pretty good, but I have my doubts of how good it works in practice. Or if we'll ever see it commercially.

Anyway, I've been using the sentry for a couple of days now. The accuracy seems decent as long as you don't move your head around much. I intend to make a custom manual calibration that takes head position into count as well so you can move your head and still maintain good accuracy, along with other features.
Without glasses the accuracy seems to be a little better and less sensitive to moving around your head.

Actually at this point the only really disappointing thing about the tobii device is the lack of apps and games that make good use of it, which is a shame. At this time the MSRP vs the content isn't that good. I suppose that's why they call it a "dev kit".
I also found the mods behavior on the dev site a little odd. The most popular and requested feature is how to use the EyeX as a mouse, and yet each time the mods say "we don't do this, look at our AAC site", basically suggesting that everyone with RSI is disabled. I'm 100% sure that if they made good mouse support in the EyeX and marketed that feature better, they would sell so many more devices. Even around the internet the most 'thumbed up' reviews are the ones that tell you how you can use the device as a mouse.

At this point the only proper built-in feature is mouse warp. You look at something and gently touch the mouse and the cursor appears where you look. Using your eyes alone isn't accurate enough at this point unless you stay perfectly steady, given how small all buttons are within apps. I wish there was a little more than that without having to program it yourself, or pay some "project iris" guy 40$ for something you can program yourself in a couple of days.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 06:47:37 »
I LIKE the feel of a mouse in my hands, the feel when I click, the tactility. I actually LIKE the touch of keys going down on the board, typing away key for key.

I would HATE speech recognition as the main input, or eye tracking for that matter.

Back in the late 90's, everybody was talking about speech recognition is the new input device. Soon we will be talking to our computers. I would HATE that. Maybe I lack vision, but a computer without a mouse and a keyboard would be painful to watch and use for me.

Now, for laptops I really like good trackpads, like Apple has. PC trackpads suck in comparison. And i would like touch screens to have some tactility. Keyboard on the iPad still feels weird for me. My muscle memory expects travel but then there is none.
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Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 09:06:16 »
I LIKE the feel of a mouse in my hands, the feel when I click, the tactility. I actually LIKE the touch of keys going down on the board, typing away key for key.

I would HATE speech recognition as the main input, or eye tracking for that matter.

Oh you actually like tactility? You must be the only one... I think you do lack the vision. No, but seriously, who said about replacing everything? If you suddenly grew a third arm would you retire your previous arms, or would you make additional use of your new arm? Eye tracking is simply a new unobtrusive channel of input that can be used for additional productivity in many ways to the individuals extent and liking (compare foot pedals). It doesn't have to replace anything you don't want it to. Not to mention the wonders it can do to people with wrist problems, or pre-eliminate said wrist problems by sharing the load of work with other limbs than just your two hands.

Unlike speech recognition, eye tracking doesn't require learning or memorizing, it's rather intuitive to use, nor would I feel stupid or exposed when using eye tracking in public vs speech. Like it or not, speech recognition is surprisingly popular, but just because it exists doesn't mean it's going to be the replacement for everyone or in every use case. That being said, it's new tech and the proper way to use it still remains to be found.

If the tracking was accurate and reliable enough I would figuratively throw my mouse out the window for when it comes to average computing use cases, a mouse has still it's uses in pixel perfect mouse-heavy applications though.

And i would like touch screens to have some tactility.

Apple has patented a system that electrically fools your finger to "feel" the screen. I don't know how it feels in practice, but I would imagine it gives at least an embossed feeling to the screen so you can sense different parts. Probably won't quite feel like a keyboard, but a step in the better direction. I think I would prefer using my eyes and a (tactile) button on the bezel of a tablet, rather than smear my fingers around the screen for the most of time. Again, this doesn't mean that tablets no longer have to be touch-sensitive or that it will replace all forms of communication forever.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 03 April 2016, 10:03:37 »
I LIKE the feel of a mouse in my hands, the feel when I click, the tactility. I actually LIKE the touch of keys going down on the board, typing away key for key.

I would HATE speech recognition as the main input, or eye tracking for that matter.

Oh you actually like tactility? You must be the only one... I think you do lack the vision. No, but seriously, who said about replacing everything? If you suddenly grew a third arm would you retire your previous arms, or would you make additional use of your new arm? Eye tracking is simply a new unobtrusive channel of input that can be used for additional productivity in many ways to the individuals extent and liking (compare foot pedals). It doesn't have to replace anything you don't want it to. Not to mention the wonders it can do to people with wrist problems, or pre-eliminate said wrist problems by sharing the load of work with other limbs than just your two hands.

Unlike speech recognition, eye tracking doesn't require learning or memorizing, it's rather intuitive to use, nor would I feel stupid or exposed when using eye tracking in public vs speech. Like it or not, speech recognition is surprisingly popular, but just because it exists doesn't mean it's going to be the replacement for everyone or in every use case. That being said, it's new tech and the proper way to use it still remains to be found.

If the tracking was accurate and reliable enough I would figuratively throw my mouse out the window for when it comes to average computing use cases, a mouse has still it's uses in pixel perfect mouse-heavy applications though.

And i would like touch screens to have some tactility.

Apple has patented a system that electrically fools your finger to "feel" the screen. I don't know how it feels in practice, but I would imagine it gives at least an embossed feeling to the screen so you can sense different parts. Probably won't quite feel like a keyboard, but a step in the better direction. I think I would prefer using my eyes and a (tactile) button on the bezel of a tablet, rather than smear my fingers around the screen for the most of time. Again, this doesn't mean that tablets no longer have to be touch-sensitive or that it will replace all forms of communication forever.
Hmmm, people could find a way to incorporate this braille technology in to modern touch screens.


The problem is that touch screens were only recently accepted and people love them

Offline Christoffer87

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 05:21:29 »
The furture mouse could be like the <p><a href="http://mousearea.com/review-logitech-g900-wireless-gaming-mouse/">Logitech G900 wireless gaming mouse</a></p>  :cool:

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 07:17:48 »
How is the custom trackball coming along? Any progress?

Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 19:06:25 »
@csmertx: That braille thing might work if the screen was really flexible, but even then I doubt it's really what people would want. I imagine the piston system is quite large and not dense enough for any special applications other than tactility, the benefits seem to outweigh the cons. Apples patented tech is for that reason quite impressive (if actually functional) because it won't alter the screen in any detrimental way (presumably). Still not good enough to make me buy anything from Apple.  :p

For now nothing new with the trackball. Since I got the eye tracker I haven't felt like working on it. Also the ball I had ordered, which was supposed to be in stock, was not in stock after all and not available anymore from distributors, and now I don't know where to get a similar replacement (2-1/4" super silver aramith ball). I think it just has to wait a while until I'm again motivated enough for the challenge.
Also, I found this: https://www.bestpricerange.com/product/logitech-fx-track-ball/
Looks like an odd scam to me... Anyone brave enough to try and buy one? I tried to contact the store for more information, but got nothing.

Anyway, what I've worked on instead is an app with eye gestures for windows controls and basic eye-mouse-emulation. It turned out pretty great, but still needs some working on and possibly a functioning GUI. I may post about that more later.
The system is out of the way when you don't need it, but there when you do. I'm quite proud of the accomplishment so far. The only real issue is making the tracking reliable enough, because currently it's great when it works properly, but the occasional offsetting when you change the place you sit etc. is headache-inducingly bad. I have a couple of ideas on how to improve the reliability.

@Christoffer87: That does look pretty good. If I was looking for a new mouse I might consider that.
I suppose mice aren't going anywhere, at least for a long time. My title was more about toying with the thought of what human-computer pointing interaction might be in the future, being impressed by the new tech. Mice are good for many applications, but they also have their weaknesses. Eyes are also functioning limbs that could be easily integrated into today's systems without any significant draw-backs.

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 19:16:58 »
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Oh good god that has to be a fake

The eye tracking project sounds interesting to me. I mentioned the braille tablet more of casual mention of how far tablets have come. I would imagine that the consumer won't see that kind of tech integrated in daily devices for +/- ten years. That's assuming we're not all using floating holographic images by then haha

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 21:08:34 »
In general gesture UIs, especially the ones where you wave your arms around, or which do head tracking, etc., have terrible accuracy and terrible latency, and whatever heuristic they use to decide what gesture you’re trying to make are crap. Even on Apple trackpads, where the basic mouse movement scrolling, and occasionally rotate/zoom work quite well, the other gestures accidentally trigger for me on a regular basis, and it’s sometimes very frustrating. Stuff like a Kinect or Wii controller or whatever is really only suitable as a children’s toy, or when hacked to be used in some way other than as a direct UI device.

For me, with user input devices, explicit always beats implicit. I like actions to trigger on unambiguous motions like pressing a clicky keyswitch, not on moving my finger in a shape that looks a bit more like a square than a circle.

The gold standard for analog inputs is some kind of physical motion of the device. Mice and some trackballs are pretty good for 2D motion of a pointer or other types of relative 2D motion. If they match the applicaiton, I like scroll wheels, jog wheels, knobs, sliders, etc. Touchscreens can be great if the finger detection is well implemented and the UI doesn’t rely on high precision. The best pen inputs (Wacom, the new Apple stylus) can be quite good. Trackpads, trackpoints, joysticks, analog triggers, and “space mice” can be okay, but are typically a step down from more direct manipulation. The worst are the pure gesture systems that try to detect waving hands.

This thing looks somewhat interesting though:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1152958674/the-sensel-morph-interaction-evolved/
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 April 2016, 21:16:04 by jacobolus »

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 05 April 2016, 21:24:38 »
In general gesture UIs, especially the ones where you wave your arms around, or which do head tracking, etc., have terrible accuracy and terrible latency, and whatever heuristic they use to decide what gesture you’re trying to make are crap. Even on Apple trackpads, where the basic mouse movement scrolling, and occasionally rotate/zoom work quite well, the other gestures accidentally trigger for me on a regular basis, and it’s sometimes very frustrating. Stuff like a Kinect or Wii controller or whatever is really only suitable as a children’s toy, or when hacked to be used in some way other than as a direct UI device.

For me, with user input devices, explicit always beats implicit. I like actions to trigger on unambiguous motions like pressing a clicky keyswitch, not on moving my finger in a shape that looks a bit more like a square than a circle.

The gold standard for analog inputs is some kind of physical motion of the device. Mice and some trackballs are pretty good for 2D motion of a pointer or other types of relative 2D motion. If they match the applicaiton, I like scroll wheels, jog wheels, knobs, sliders, etc. Touchscreens can be great if the finger detection is well implemented and the UI doesn’t rely on high precision. The best pen inputs (Wacom, the new Apple stylus) can be quite good. Trackpads, trackpoints, joysticks, analog triggers, and “space mice” can be okay, but are typically a step down from more direct manipulation. The worst are the pure gesture systems that try to detect waving hands.

This thing looks somewhat interesting though:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1152958674/the-sensel-morph-interaction-evolved/

Oh man, what did they do to Suzanne?! She has a cone sticking out of her eye :'( I really like the idea of multi axis pressure sensitivity

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 05:53:36 »
For me, with user input devices, explicit always beats implicit. I like actions to trigger on unambiguous motions like pressing a clicky keyswitch, not on moving my finger in a shape that looks a bit more like a square than a circle.

Exactly. Take for instance Samsung Galaxy's head tracking "scrolling". Sometimes it works, often it doesn't. Voice recognition always failed for me either in English or in my native language Dutch.

Aside from nostalgia and memory line, I really do not believe that voice recognition / eye recognition or other optic tracking will really be a usable substitute for a mouse / keyboard. Especially not for precision work.

I do, however, like the idea of the Apple Pencil (stylus) for drawing if it would really come close to an actually analogue pencil. For instance, for learning from a textbook I always highlight and write in the margins. If the pencil would allow me to write really small and if it could mimic the feel of using a marker to highlight, combine with the large iPad Pro, it could actually replace textbooks for me.
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Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 06:49:21 »
@jacobolus: I agree with what you are saying, but I must also say that the EyeX tracking is surprisingly accurate (within 3 mm radius raw, much better with accumulating smoothing), the problem just being that when you move your head from the position it was calibrated, the mouse becomes 'offsetted'. After some testing I realize that the offset is directly related to the amount your head has moved relative to the device, and since EyeX allows for physical eye position tracking as well, it should be fairly easy to come up with an equation to properly offset the mouse back where it should be, relative to eye (or head) position. If that doesn't work, then I'll just make multiple manual calibrations that stores the physical eye position as well to compute the proper displacement coefficient on the fly.

The term "gesture" in this case might not be quite accurate. What I did is not complex eye motions for actions, instead there are blue-tacks around the bezel of my screen, and when I stare at one, it makes an action. So far this is what I have:
133521-0

I imagine that if this system was to be integrated in an actual device, we could use dim LEDs that pulsate as they activate. Of course the LEDs being the kind that don't disturb the eyes.

Each point has a relatively low tolerance, and a slight activation timer depending on how drastic the action is. Also there are varying repetition timers etc. The scrolling happens dynamically, so that the higher you look the faster it scrolls. It's pretty good when reading through long PDFs. It's almost impossible to make accidental actions as the activation has to be really deliberate to work, simply eye-balling these points will have no affect as the system is sensitive to non-deliberate stares. At the same time it works very reliably, given there is no offsetting, in which case you just have to figure out the right place to look at. I also plan on adding visual tactility to tell when my eyes are over such a point and pulse each time it activates.

The eye-mouse works so that you stare at a point for 0.5s and the cursor appears there. You can make small adjustments to it by looking around the cursor. Since the cursor doesn't have to follow the eyes all the time, I can take many data-points for highly accurate smoothing, and when you look away to for example perform a click, the cursor stays in place effortlessly. The entire action over-all takes little time.

I also tried using left and right eye blinks to perform clicks, and while I managed to make it fairly reliable, it was a bit too tiring in the long run and there were occasional accidents, but I may revise this. The alt+tab system works really well. While it is in action you can still blink normally without a problem, to select the window you look at it and make a more deliberate blink.
Of course a mouse is still overall faster, but it's not like this system is that slow either when you get the hang of it.

As I mentioned before, the point here (for me at least) isn't to replace the mouse entirely, but I do find it useful at times. For example I can read the news, while holding coffee in one hand and bread in the other without constant switching around. It also allows my hands to relax for while, or keep me from taking my hand off the keyboard for some quick basic action here and there. I still do use my mouse primarily of course, that's not going to change (my mouse might change however).

Ah, a wonderful wall of text.

Offline LuX

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 07:00:33 »
For me, with user input devices, explicit always beats implicit. I like actions to trigger on unambiguous motions like pressing a clicky keyswitch, not on moving my finger in a shape that looks a bit more like a square than a circle.

Exactly. Take for instance Samsung Galaxy's head tracking "scrolling". Sometimes it works, often it doesn't. Voice recognition always failed for me either in English or in my native language Dutch.

Aside from nostalgia and memory line, I really do not believe that voice recognition / eye recognition or other optic tracking will really be a usable substitute for a mouse / keyboard. Especially not for precision work.

I do, however, like the idea of the Apple Pencil (stylus) for drawing if it would really come close to an actually analogue pencil. For instance, for learning from a textbook I always highlight and write in the margins. If the pencil would allow me to write really small and if it could mimic the feel of using a marker to highlight, combine with the large iPad Pro, it could actually replace textbooks for me.

I think we are at a similar problem as when the first car was made. At first people didn't believe Benz's invention was any good. I mean, you could basically walk faster than it could drive. But compare that to modern sports cars. I think there will be further evolution and improvements happening in signal processing in the future. You can't just jump from zero to a Ferrari.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 12:02:07 »
The eye-mouse works so that you stare at a point for 0.5s and the cursor appears there. You can make small adjustments to it by looking around the cursor. Since the cursor doesn't have to follow the eyes all the time, I can take many data-points for highly accurate smoothing, and when you look away to for example perform a click, the cursor stays in place effortlessly. The entire action over-all takes little time.

This sounds great for someone who is paraplegic and has no use of their arms. I would personally hate using it though.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 14:00:22 »
I think I found one great downside of eye-tracking: you need to shift your eyes either overtly (actually physically move your eyeballs) or covertly (shift attention) towards the cues or gestures to get things to happen.

The upside of a mouse and keyboard is that you can keep looking at what you are looking at whilst using the mouse and/or keyboard.
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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 14:21:09 »
I think I found one great downside of eye-tracking: you need to shift your eyes either overtly (actually physically move your eyeballs) or covertly (shift attention) towards the cues or gestures to get things to happen.

The upside of a mouse and keyboard is that you can keep looking at what you are looking at whilst using the mouse and/or keyboard.

Eye-tracking for me would be impossible. Every time I talk to someone I would inadvertently close/maximize/minimize/page pg/foward pg.. plus when I use shortcuts I look at my keyboard so that would cause problems too I guess. Amazing technology for those that need it but I prefer input devices that I can control with my hands. 

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 06 April 2016, 15:16:59 »
This sounds great for someone who is paraplegic and has no use of their arms. I would personally hate using it though.
Yes, that that is true, and as it is now I would also hate using it as my main mouse input, but in the right occasions I have found it to be quite nice as well, ie. in cases where your hands are better off doing something other than using the mouse.
If the device was much cheaper I would actually recommend giving it a fair chance, but anything above 30$ seems excessive, given the lack of content.

I think I found one great downside of eye-tracking: you need to shift your eyes either overtly (actually physically move your eyeballs) or covertly (shift attention) towards the cues or gestures to get things to happen.

The upside of a mouse and keyboard is that you can keep looking at what you are looking at whilst using the mouse and/or keyboard.
Eye-tracking for me would be impossible. Every time I talk to someone I would inadvertently close/maximize/minimize/page pg/foward pg.. plus when I use shortcuts I look at my keyboard so that would cause problems too I guess. Amazing technology for those that need it but I prefer input devices that I can control with my hands. 

I should point out that the system above was made by me and is not the intended use case. As such I wouldn't call it the definition of eye tracking.
I think when Tobii began making these trackers for gamer's, their intended application was something completely else than mouse emulation. Take a look here: http://developer.tobii.com/gaming-immersions/

And yes the emulator is not meant for anything complex as I said. More of a convenience thing than a complete replacement. The gestures could be handled in other ways as well, but for reasons mentioned above, such as lower reliability, I have chosen to not yet tackle that problem. Theoretically I could make gestures that allow you to keep your eyes on what you are doing. Like using blinks in discrete ways.

Accidental activations of the "gestures" is a valid concern, but I think it will be quite unlikely. But even then, you could switch off any of the gestures you wouldn't need, or are afraid of accidents happening.
I'm trying to think of more ways to improve reliability to further reduce the risks. With visual tactility added, it should reduce the risk of mindlessly staring and activating, because it alerts you to something happening. Static dots don't quite do that.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: The future of mice?
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 07 April 2016, 05:42:33 »
I should point out that the system above was made by me and is not the intended use case. As such I wouldn't call it the definition of eye tracking.
I think when Tobii began making these trackers for gamer's, their intended application was something completely else than mouse emulation. Take a look here: http://developer.tobii.com/gaming-immersions/

And yes the emulator is not meant for anything complex as I said. More of a convenience thing than a complete replacement. The gestures could be handled in other ways as well, but for reasons mentioned above, such as lower reliability, I have chosen to not yet tackle that problem. Theoretically I could make gestures that allow you to keep your eyes on what you are doing. Like using blinks in discrete ways.

It is an interesting thought and very cool to try out. Don't get me wrong. It's nice to check out new things. But I'm just thinking about how this could really work.

I would use it to flip pages in an ereader.
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