Feel/experience of Topre spacebar-stroke

[iLLucionist]

Man man man... I love Topre (my HHKB and 87U 55g) but wtf is with that spacebar. Not that it's ABS, but the feel of the press, the travel. It feels SO different, SO OFF compared to the rest of the keys. It is as if the spacebar uses a totally different switch, nothing like the other keys.

Am I the only one noticing this? It feels... unsatisfactory. And given that between every two words is a space, I am furiously aggravated by every spacebar press I do on my 87U.

[cynviloq]

Have you tried flipping it?


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[iLLucionist]

Have you tried flipping it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I have flipped it. Still it feels so off.

[cynviloq]

Have you tried flipping it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I have flipped it. Still it feels so off.

I get what you mean - I'm tapping it (on both a Pro2 and 55g uniform like yours) and the light slapping sound is making me feel like it's off. For me the difference is maybe that when I hit it with my thumb, it feels like a weak key (big thumbs..?) but if I use my index finger and compare the space versus a regular key, it feels more normal...

[dgneo]

Man man man... I love Topre (my HHKB and 87U 55g) but wtf is with that spacebar. Not that it's ABS, but the feel of the press, the travel. It feels SO different, SO OFF compared to the rest of the keys. It is as if the spacebar uses a totally different switch, nothing like the other keys.

Am I the only one noticing this? It feels... unsatisfactory. And given that between every two words is a space, I am furiously aggravated by every spacebar press I do on my 87U.

Have you tried removing the spring? Some people like it better without.

[iLLucionist]

Have you tried flipping it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I have flipped it. Still it feels so off.

I get what you mean - I'm tapping it (on both a Pro2 and 55g uniform like yours) and the light slapping sound is making me feel like it's off. For me the difference is maybe that when I hit it with my thumb, it feels like a weak key (big thumbs..?) but if I use my index finger and compare the space versus a regular key, it feels more normal...

I'm thinking about how to fix this.

Any suggestions?

Perhaps I could add some padding somewhere. It feels as if like the plastic of the spacebar hits the plastic of the top case on which the switches are mounted.

[iLLucionist]

Man man man... I love Topre (my HHKB and 87U 55g) but wtf is with that spacebar. Not that it's ABS, but the feel of the press, the travel. It feels SO different, SO OFF compared to the rest of the keys. It is as if the spacebar uses a totally different switch, nothing like the other keys.

Am I the only one noticing this? It feels... unsatisfactory. And given that between every two words is a space, I am furiously aggravated by every spacebar press I do on my 87U.

Have you tried removing the spring? Some people like it better without.

Yeah, I removed the spring almost immediately when I bought it, alongside with flipping the spacebar (oh lawd for I have sinned).

[Entropia]

Let me ask:
What kind of stabilizers are used in Topre boards?
Does this problem with the spacebar also happens in the Leopold FC980C?
Do you know if the spacebar on the Leopold is also abs or is it pbt?

[iLLucionist]

So. I couldn't stand it anymore, realizing that ALL MY MX-keyboards (Filco, 2 kul's, browns and clears) didn't suffer from this "variation" between spacebar and the rest of the keys.

So I took matters in my own hand and I came across this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37722.0

Based on that, I put two very tiny pieces of rubber into the holes of the spacebar keycap that goes on top of the stabilizers. And I also put two pieces of rubber near the front on the top which the spacebar hits, practically cushioning the spacebar.

I really worked. I sounds almost the same now as the rest of the key. This rubber is approx 1mm thick, so I think I want a bit thinner rubber as I do notice lesser travel.

But overall it is nice and Topre-esque.

[hking0036]

Let me ask:
What kind of stabilizers are used in Topre boards?
Does this problem with the spacebar also happens in the Leopold FC980C?
Do you know if the spacebar on the Leopold is also abs or is it pbt?

Topre only stabilizes the spacebar, the shift keys and thereabouts don't have any.
Both of mine have the same issue if you can call it that but it doesn't bother me.
All ANSI spacebars on topre boards are ABS.

[HPE1000]

Yeah I put some foam bumpers under the spacebar on both sides, took a lot of tweaking to get the right balance between switch feel and silencing, but afterwards it made the spacebar much less cheap feeling. Also lubed the spacebar stabilizer a ton which helped a bit.

[iLLucionist]

Yeah I put some foam bumpers under the spacebar on both sides, took a lot of tweaking to get the right balance between switch feel and silencing, but afterwards it made the spacebar much less cheap feeling. Also lubed the spacebar stabilizer a ton which helped a bit.

What kind of foam bumpers?

What lube did you use? And where did you apply it? On the plastic? Or on the back on the real metal stabs themselves?

[Entropia]

Let me ask:
What kind of stabilizers are used in Topre boards?
Does this problem with the spacebar also happens in the Leopold FC980C?
Do you know if the spacebar on the Leopold is also abs or is it pbt?

Topre only stabilizes the spacebar, the shift keys and thereabouts don't have any.
Both of mine have the same issue if you can call it that but it doesn't bother me.
All ANSI spacebars on topre boards are ABS.

In this video I cannot hear any problem with the spacebar.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the FC980c have a pbt spacebar. Is there any reason why Topre boards cannot use pbt spacebar but Cherry boards can? It's really a shame because the spacebar is the key that sooner gets shinny. I was considering buying a FC980c but if it has an abs spacebar, I'll pass. It's unacceptable for such an expensive keyboard.

[iLLucionist]

Let me ask:
What kind of stabilizers are used in Topre boards?
Does this problem with the spacebar also happens in the Leopold FC980C?
Do you know if the spacebar on the Leopold is also abs or is it pbt?

Topre only stabilizes the spacebar, the shift keys and thereabouts don't have any.
Both of mine have the same issue if you can call it that but it doesn't bother me.
All ANSI spacebars on topre boards are ABS.

In this video I cannot hear any problem with the spacebar.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the FC980c have a pbt spacebar. Is there any reason why Topre boards cannot use pbt spacebar but Cherry boards can? It's really a shame because the spacebar is the key that sooner gets shinny. I was considering buying a FC980c but if it has an abs spacebar, I'll pass. It's unacceptable for such an expensive keyboard.

Yeah well the story used to be that ABS spacebars are difficult to make and typically they are warped. But then Ducky and the lots went out and make PBT keycap sets INCLUDING PBT spacebars, so yeah there's that.

I also hate the fact that I don't have a PBT spacebar for my 87U nor my HHKB but yeah that's life.

Also, they should really dampen the spacebar out of the box. Spacebar feels f**ked up compared to the rest of the keys.

[HPE1000]

Yeah I put some foam bumpers under the spacebar on both sides, took a lot of tweaking to get the right balance between switch feel and silencing, but afterwards it made the spacebar much less cheap feeling. Also lubed the spacebar stabilizer a ton which helped a bit.

What kind of foam bumpers?

What lube did you use? And where did you apply it? On the plastic? Or on the back on the real metal stabs themselves?

They are little foam circles that are meant to be feet for things you put on tables and stuff. Really small, like a quarter inch or less in diameter. They are far too thick though, so i had to chop them slimmer and slimmer which took a long time to get them the perfect thickness.

They should be those grey things here: https://www.lowes.com/pd/The-Hillman-Group-80-Pack-Round-Adhesive-Backed-Plastic-Hard-Surface-Sliders/50322133

As far as lube is concerned, I put it all over the wire for the spacebar (I did this when I completely took apart the board to do silencing) as well as filled the guides on each side where the spacebar clips in with it. Since the wire sits under the plate, I am not sure if it can be lubed in a realforce without taking the board apart. If I am not mistaken, I used thick krytox lube, I can't imagine I used thin lube.

If my memory serves me right, even after I silenced the spacebar it was still rattly and loud af, and that is why I did it. Now its really quiet.

[ander]

OP: So you're really talking about the feel of the spacebar, and not its sound? Or more specifically, its volume?

On all the Topre boards I've used (and the couple I have), I've noticed how much louder the spacebar was than the other keys. But that's typical of any board. The spacebar's much, much bigger than all the other keys, so it's bound to be considerably louder, even though its mass is divided between three mount points. And because the Topre sound is so distinctive, having a noticeably louder example of it on the same board would be quite noticeable.

Adding the rubber would, of course, make the spacebar quieter as well as reducing its travel length and cushioning its impact. So even if you weren't referring primarily to the bar's sound, referring to its "feel" doesn't give us the whole story. It's amazing how particular all this can be, isn't it? Also, I've had coffee.

[iLLucionist]

OP: So you're really talking about the feel of the spacebar, and not its sound? Or more specifically, its volume?

On all the Topre boards I've used (and the couple I have), I've noticed how much louder the spacebar was than the other keys. But that's typical of any board. The spacebar's much, much bigger than all the other keys, so it's bound to be considerably louder, even though its mass is divided between three mount points. And because the Topre sound is so distinctive, having a noticeably louder example of it on the same board would be quite noticeable.

Adding the rubber would, of course, make the spacebar quieter as well as reducing its travel length and cushioning its impact. So even if you weren't referring primarily to the bar's sound, referring to its "feel" doesn't give us the whole story. It's amazing how particular all this can be, isn't it? Also, I've had coffee.

Of course, it's also the sound. As you say, it's a larger hollow shape that resonates more.

But I have the impression - perhaps due to it's ABS - that it transmits more vibration, for instance via the two plastic mounts for the stabilizer and the fact that the whole border of the spacebar hits the top plate every time you push the spacebar down.

It annoys me heavily that the stock spacebar feel/sound is so off with Topre boards. It's in my opinion a major oversight in the design and construction of these boards. I wouldn't be that more expensive to put some dampening under the spacebar, perhaps even padding IN the spacebar to cancel out some vibration, and make the stabilizers dampened.

[hking0036]

Let me ask:
What kind of stabilizers are used in Topre boards?
Does this problem with the spacebar also happens in the Leopold FC980C?
Do you know if the spacebar on the Leopold is also abs or is it pbt?

Topre only stabilizes the spacebar, the shift keys and thereabouts don't have any.
Both of mine have the same issue if you can call it that but it doesn't bother me.
All ANSI spacebars on topre boards are ABS.

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the FC980c have a pbt spacebar. Is there any reason why Topre boards cannot use pbt spacebar but Cherry boards can? It's really a shame because the spacebar is the key that sooner gets shinny. I was considering buying a FC980c but if it has an abs spacebar, I'll pass. It's unacceptable for such an expensive keyboard.

All the ANSI spacebars are ABS because Topre expressed that they felt it was too difficult to predict how ANSI PBT space bars would come out. on JIS boards it's PBT all the way, and in that sense we get the short end of the stick, but a number of runs of replacement spacebars have been run (as a matter of fact I have a PBT bar on both of my Topre boards, unfortunately the Leopold's white is a little off) so it's not too hard to change. If you're going to be that concerned over the ABS bar, then you should either get a JP layout board or not a Topre board.

[zutroy]

As others have mentioned, I think lube is the best solution. Personally, I find lubed Topre (switches and stabs) to feel and sound much better than stock. Especially with stabilized keys (spacebar on HHKB/RF and shift/enter/backspace on RF), lubing the wires takes away a lot of what I would describe as a cheap, plasticky feel and enhances the thock.

[iLLucionist]

As others have mentioned, I think lube is the best solution. Personally, I find lubed Topre (switches and stabs) to feel and sound much better than stock. Especially with stabilized keys (spacebar on HHKB/RF and shift/enter/backspace on RF), lubing the wires takes away a lot of what I would describe as a cheap, plasticky feel and enhances the thock.

Sounds interesting. Is there a GOOD tutorial around how to lube switches and stabs? I am a little bit hesitant to try it myself, because I am afraid I'll use the wrong lube AND apply it incorrectly, thereby ruining my board.

[zutroy]

As others have mentioned, I think lube is the best solution. Personally, I find lubed Topre (switches and stabs) to feel and sound much better than stock. Especially with stabilized keys (spacebar on HHKB/RF and shift/enter/backspace on RF), lubing the wires takes away a lot of what I would describe as a cheap, plasticky feel and enhances the thock.

Sounds interesting. Is there a GOOD tutorial around how to lube switches and stabs? I am a little bit hesitant to try it myself, because I am afraid I'll use the wrong lube AND apply it incorrectly, thereby ruining my board.

Stabs are pretty similar to MX stabs—apply some thick lube (I use EK's thick solution: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc&pid=mechlube, but dialectric grease works well and is easy to find at a hardware store: https://www.ipdusa.com/uploads/images_products_slideshow/fullsize_3785.jpg) to the metal parts of the stabilizer (especially where metal meets metal—that's where most of the rattling occurs in my experience and the lube takes care of this).

As for sliders or housing, this thread has all the info you should need: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49741.0 For type of lube on the sliders, I would definitely go with this stuff: http://techkeys.us/products/krytox-switch-lurbricant Only other advice I have is get yourself a very small paintbrush and use it to evenly spread the lube along the housing—otherwise you might notice that some keys are a bit sticky or have a more "viscous" feel (not sure how else to describe it) because of the lube gobbing up (again, maybe not the best word, haha) at the top of the housing.

Good luck with your search for the perfect spacebar solution

[iLLucionist]

As others have mentioned, I think lube is the best solution. Personally, I find lubed Topre (switches and stabs) to feel and sound much better than stock. Especially with stabilized keys (spacebar on HHKB/RF and shift/enter/backspace on RF), lubing the wires takes away a lot of what I would describe as a cheap, plasticky feel and enhances the thock.

Sounds interesting. Is there a GOOD tutorial around how to lube switches and stabs? I am a little bit hesitant to try it myself, because I am afraid I'll use the wrong lube AND apply it incorrectly, thereby ruining my board.

Stabs are pretty similar to MX stabs—apply some thick lube (I use EK's thick solution: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc&pid=mechlube, but dialectric grease works well and is easy to find at a hardware store: https://www.ipdusa.com/uploads/images_products_slideshow/fullsize_3785.jpg) to the metal parts of the stabilizer (especially where metal meets metal—that's where most of the rattling occurs in my experience and the lube takes care of this).

As for sliders or housing, this thread has all the info you should need: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49741.0 For type of lube on the sliders, I would definitely go with this stuff: http://techkeys.us/products/krytox-switch-lurbricant Only other advice I have is get yourself a very small paintbrush and use it to evenly spread the lube along the housing—otherwise you might notice that some keys are a bit sticky or have a more "viscous" feel (not sure how else to describe it) because of the lube gobbing up (again, maybe not the best word, haha) at the top of the housing.

Good luck with your search for the perfect spacebar solution

Thanks! This is awesome info.

[DRAZAH]

Stock HHKB spacebar was awful when I got mine. LUBE did it. Hyperspheres helped, but really lubing the stabs is what made it perfect. I use flipped key, and produces the best, deepest "thock" on my keyboard.

[iLLucionist]

Stock HHKB spacebar was awful when I got mine. LUBE did it. Hyperspheres helped, but really lubing the stabs is what made it perfect. I use flipped key, and produces the best, deepest "thock" on my keyboard.

Where can I get myself some hypersphere rings dungit?

[HPE1000]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/hypersphere2016/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

[iLLucionist]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/hypersphere2016/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

AWESOME thanks!!

[ander]

I'm glad you guys are on top of all this. That said, you must be a lot more particular than I am, as I've never noticed anything annoying about Topre spacebars. I was too busy enjoying the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

[Polymer]

Yeah well the story used to be that ABS spacebars are difficult to make and typically they are warped. But then Ducky and the lots went out and make PBT keycap sets INCLUDING PBT spacebars, so yeah there's that.

I also hate the fact that I don't have a PBT spacebar for my 87U nor my HHKB but yeah that's life.

Also, they should really dampen the spacebar out of the box. Spacebar feels f**ked up compared to the rest of the keys.

The Topre PBT Spacebars ARE warped though...and that might part of the reason why they quiet down things because there is probably some tension in there...I think quite a few people had to take a hair dryer to their spacebars when they first came out..

[iLLucionist]

I'm glad you guys are on top of all this. That said, you must be a lot more particular than I am, as I've never noticed anything annoying about Topre spacebars. I was too busy enjoying the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

I've been typing on Topre roughly for 4 years now on end, with a half year of MX Clears (KUL ES-97) in between. After a while, you get used to teh Church of Topre (and get seriously pissed off when you have to type on something else). And then you start to notice what could be better. In my case, I want a more consistent match between feel/sound of spacebar and the rest of the keys AND probably silence the board.

But then I may just be weird... I like flipping spacebars and that is typically frowned upon.

[1391406]

There's an active drop for PBT space bars at Massdrop.

[iLLucionist]

There's an active drop for PBT space bars at Massdrop.

Thanks and WTF gray already sold out. WTF. AAAAARGH

EDIT: I bought 3 light gray, 2 red, 1 orange. Better have enough of those f**kers coz I like my PBT. YEAH

[Entropia]

What's special with Topre spacebar keycaps that cannot be made of PBT? They aren't longer than Cherry MX spacebars. Is it because of the stems? There are several Cherry MX keyboards with PBT spacebars and lots of PBT keysets available and I haven't heard of problems of warped or deformed keycaps.

[s0nia]

I really disliked the HHKB spacebar until I switched it for a PBT spacebar. Now it's perfect. On the other hand, PBT spacebar on my Realforce sounds really off, so much that I actually prefer the ABS on that one. Weird.

[hking0036]

What's special with Topre spacebar keycaps that cannot be made of PBT? They aren't longer than Cherry MX spacebars. Is it because of the stems? There are several Cherry MX keyboards with PBT spacebars and lots of PBT keysets available and I haven't heard of problems of warped or deformed keycaps.

Topre didn't want to make them but since topre is as far as I know the only manufacturer of topre caps, it just didn't happen until Matt3o came up with a design on his own and got it made. You are correct though they're actually shorter than the standard 6.25 mx spacebar, they're 6u wide.

[En_Ex]

I'm glad you guys are on top of all this. That said, you must be a lot more particular than I am, as I've never noticed anything annoying about Topre spacebars. I was too busy enjoying the good feeling of oneness with cup rubber.

Same. When I got my board, I found the spacebar to feel just fine. I'm not too concerned about replacing it.

[harahyuna]

Is it normal for Topre Space bar to make a different sound on left and right side? I tried at least 6 topre keyboards in the store and all the Space bars have a louder clack sound if you press down on the left side of the Space bar while the right side sounds more thock like the rest of the keys. Kind of weird since all the cherry MX space bar I tried make the same sound on both sides.

[hking0036]

Is it normal for Topre Space bar to make a different sound on left and right side? I tried at least 6 topre keyboards in the store and all the Space bars have a louder clack sound if you press down on the left side of the Space bar while the right side sounds more thock like the rest of the keys. Kind of weird since all the cherry MX space bar I tried make the same sound on both sides.

push down kind of hard on both sides to make sure it's on the stabilizers all the way. after replacing mine it seemed a little loud and it just wasn't on all the way.

[iLLucionist]

What's special with Topre spacebar keycaps that cannot be made of PBT? They aren't longer than Cherry MX spacebars. Is it because of the stems? There are several Cherry MX keyboards with PBT spacebars and lots of PBT keysets available and I haven't heard of problems of warped or deformed keycaps.

Topre didn't want to make them but since topre is as far as I know the only manufacturer of topre caps, it just didn't happen until Matt3o came up with a design on his own and got it made. You are correct though they're actually shorter than the standard 6.25 mx spacebar, they're 6u wide.

Wait wait... so uhm... wtf.. there will be a GAP on my board around the alt key? because it is 0.25x shorter?