Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2333786 times)

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1100 on: Sun, 23 July 2017, 21:01:05 »
1.  Yes that is the proposed set.

2 and 3.  Each novelty key is $3 extra - please use the store item "$1 increments" for those.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1101 on: Thu, 27 July 2017, 19:14:11 »
A mini update: 

1.  The factory is still working on the key molds for their last chance at making the keys to spec before I switch the key mold maker.

2.  The very first inner assembly samples from the updated tooling should be completed next week. 

3.  I am having the springs made in the US and am talking with some manufacturers here.  They have better spring equipment that can match IBM's tolerances for the springs, both in the dimensional and compression force aspects.  They will be evaluating the original spring samples next week, producing a batch of samples to full specifications, and if they meet my quality standards they will produce all the springs.

Offline Latin00032

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1102 on: Thu, 27 July 2017, 20:57:00 »
Ellipse, are you going to the nyc meetup next weekend?

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1104 on: Fri, 28 July 2017, 17:09:51 »
Thanks for letting me know!  I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes! 

Offline zacheadams

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1105 on: Fri, 28 July 2017, 19:18:45 »
Thanks for letting me know!  I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes!

Can't wait to see you again - I'll try to get some pics of your boards/parts/etc this time!

Offline Latin00032

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1106 on: Fri, 28 July 2017, 21:37:20 »
Thanks for letting me know!  I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes!

Can't wait to see you again - I'll try to get some pics of your boards/parts/etc this time!
If you can't make it, I'll take your boards with me.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1107 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 17:04:43 »
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications!  They are just completing the finishing of these parts.

I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).

Offline zacheadams

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1108 on: Tue, 01 August 2017, 18:14:06 »
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications!  They are just completing the finishing of these parts.

I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).

!!!

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1109 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 00:44:47 »
So hype!!!
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Offline atlas3686

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1110 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 07:42:51 »
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications!  They are just completing the finishing of these parts.

I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).

Great news, getting hyped now :)

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1111 on: Wed, 02 August 2017, 23:44:20 »
Excitement intensifies!


Offline NathanA

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1112 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 07:55:38 »
3. How do we order http://i.imgur.com/SC8TI3I.png if we're getting the F77 model? This set would basically cover any uses I would possibly have with the side keys!
Each novelty key is $3 extra - please use the store item "$1 increments" for those.
Ellipse,

If I am not mistaken, the only keys that don't exist in the full keyset to make F77 layout #3 possible are a gray 1U '+' and a gray 1U 'Enter' (symbol).  Right?

So if I ordered F77 right-side layout #2 but actually want #3 (which was never offered on the order form), all I have to do is order those 2 keys at $3/ea from you, and you will in fact print them and ship them?  (I understand they would come separately in the box and I would have to swap them, arrange the other keys to my liking, and reprogram the controller.)

Thanks,

-- Nathan

Offline laden3

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1113 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 09:42:09 »
How do we track our orders?
I rrrove brrracks.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1114 on: Thu, 03 August 2017, 17:44:13 »
Someone sent me a description and comparison video of an interesting grease-style Model F/M mod that seems to eliminate the plate/spring reverberation/tizz but keep much of the click sound.  For those who don't like ping but like the click in their buckling spring keyboards.  I have not tried this out myself and it is probably irreversible. 

He "put a tiny amount of Synco Superlube on the inside of the spring with a metal probe...just enough to dampen the vibration."

laden3 all the keyboards are still in production and delivery is expected around year end.  I will send out tracking numbers when each order ships.

Nathan I think you are correct on all points.  Please do specify the legends and colors on each of the extras you'd like.

Offline NathanA

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1115 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 08:18:17 »
Someone sent me a description and comparison video of an interesting grease-style Model F/M mod that seems to eliminate the plate/spring reverberation/tizz but keep much of the click sound.  For those who don't like ping but like the click in their buckling spring keyboards.

Sounds similar to an official IBM product called "Soft Touch" (which they're undoubtedly trying to reproduce), where they covered the springs with a grease or some kind of silicon: http://clickykeyboards.com/product/1994-ibm-model-m-soft-touch-8184692-manufactured-for-ibm-by-lexmark-10-mar-94/

...anyway: who would want that?? ;)


Nathan I think you are correct on all points.  Please do specify the legends and colors on each of the extras you'd like.
Awesome; thanks.  Just submitted an order addendum.  I didn't think you were interested in doing "custom" keys so this caught me by surprise.  Perhaps you are only interested in doing relatively simple custom ones (a single legend, no top+bottom or side/front printing, no legends that don't exist) or ones that > 1 person might request?  I kept my latest order simple (restricted to what was discussed here) but if you are willing to do more, let me know because I definitely have specific requests. ;)

-- Nathan
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 August 2017, 08:20:01 by NathanA »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1116 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 15:14:10 »
For now the only custom keys available are the ones from Zed's post (also here:  http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4 ).  I don't want to delay anything with additional custom requests but I may be able to do custom keys during the final round once I have shipped all current orders.

Offline NathanA

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1117 on: Fri, 04 August 2017, 17:06:54 »
For now the only custom keys available are the ones from Zed's post (also here:  http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4 ).  I don't want to delay anything with additional custom requests but I may be able to do custom keys during the final round once I have shipped all current orders.
Perfectly reasonable; thanks.  I have also been looking more closely into Hajime Nakazato's Etsy operation, and will likely reach out to him once the XT font is released.

-- Nathan

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1118 on: Sat, 05 August 2017, 18:08:12 »
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today!  Over 150 people were there.  I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards.  There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today!  And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!

Offline Latin00032

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1119 on: Sat, 05 August 2017, 18:39:32 »
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today!  Over 150 people were there.  I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards.  There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today!  And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!
Thanks for let me try your boards again!

Offline bciamny

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1120 on: Sun, 06 August 2017, 00:30:59 »
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today!  Over 150 people were there.  I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards.  There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today!  And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!
Thanks for let me try your boards again!

also met ellipse and had a chance to try out his boards today. they are definitely unique and model f hype seems justified. i was originally leaning to the slim cases but seeing (and feeling) the heft of the new aluminum chasis has me thinking to order the retro. ellipse mentioned that you can still get in on ordering if you're interested!

Offline Latin00032

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1121 on: Sun, 06 August 2017, 08:56:02 »
Before I forget, I remembered the thing for the case texture.

Try googling "light orange peel".

That is what I think the texture is for these cases.

Offline bthezebra

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1122 on: Sun, 06 August 2017, 13:06:36 »
Before I forget, I remembered the thing for the case texture.

Try googling "light orange peel".

That is what I think the texture is for these cases.
"Light orange peel" is how the old school cases would be described? That sounds interesting. How did the finished aluminum cases look? I wish I could have seen and felt them in person!

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1123 on: Sun, 06 August 2017, 20:24:31 »
Yes Latin00032 that looks about right!

The finished aluminum cases are hard anodized with a smooth finish - they are not powdercoated.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1124 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 16:17:56 »
Any interest in custom anodized blue as an ultra compact case premium color option?  A few people could split the $500 tooling charge.  A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.

Offline bthezebra

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1125 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 16:30:52 »
What color blue is planned, a lighter or darker shade? Maybe a sample to see?

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Offline Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1126 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 16:47:50 »
Any interest in custom anodized blue as an ultra compact case premium color option?  A few people could split the $500 tooling charge.  A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.
I wasn't getting an ultra compact but I would if it was blue. What shade of blue are we talking about?

Offline NathanA

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1127 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 20:19:49 »
A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.
Please tell me that it is chyros.

-- Nathan

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1128 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 20:23:38 »
Not sure - any recommendations on shades of blue?

Offline bthezebra

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1129 on: Mon, 07 August 2017, 21:13:19 »
I'm on mobile but looking at some blues, I think either a sky blue or a sea blue would compliment the industrial ssk modifiers really well.

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Offline Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1130 on: Tue, 08 August 2017, 12:50:15 »
I could go for a Navy blue or a True blue.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1131 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 18:20:33 »
The US factory spring wire samples arrived today and they look great!  Almost identical in appearance to the original spring samples. 

Almost none of the US based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM's 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (this one does!).  Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM's original tolerances!

The factory said that these springs' tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.

I will be ordering sample springs this week for evaluation and then if they are good I will order all the springs from this factory - everyone will get the US-made springs.
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 August 2017, 18:22:15 by Ellipse »

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1132 on: Wed, 09 August 2017, 18:33:19 »
The US factory spring wire samples arrived today and they look great!  Almost identical in appearance to the original spring samples. 

Almost none of the US based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM's 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (this one does!).  Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM's original tolerances!

The factory said that these springs' tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.

I will be ordering sample springs this week for evaluation and then if they are good I will order all the springs from this factory - everyone will get the US-made springs.

Wow, really cool that this factory seems to have got it right so fast. Hopefully, they feel as good as the originals too!
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1133 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 19:52:31 »
Here is the latest web site update post - I ordered the sample springs today from the US factory.

The main theme continues – it was tougher than the factories and I expected to meet IBM’s exacting standards and tolerances from 35 years ago.

Instead of delivering functional keyboards and meeting the original factory timeline (I’ve been typing on the fully working prototypes without issue this year), I want to make sure these keyboards live up to the quality standards of the originals for the clickiest, most musical typing experience possible, even at the cost of time (rejecting parts) until these standards are met. Eventually they have been met for the other critical parts, many of which finished production and are waiting in boxes at the factory for assembly (tens of thousands of barrels/flippers, the die cast zinc cases, capacitive PCBs, controllers, custom IDE/floppy style ribbon cables have finished production).  Check out a few blog posts back for a detailed production update by part.

Dimensions on the keys that are off by just 0.5mm do not function well (I received the latest key samples this week). Spring free length variances are too large for a more consistent feel.

I cancelled the spring contract last month due to poor part tolerances and I expect to cancel the key mold contract as well and move it to another manufacturer this month. While this is going on I will have assembly start on the rest of the components to avoid any bottlenecking so we keep on schedule.

The springs are going to be made in the US. Almost none of the US-based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM’s 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (at least one does – the one I am working with). Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM’s original tolerances!

The factory said that these springs’ tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1134 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 20:20:09 »
So, ETA? How long will it take to get the keycaps done now? It's gotta be months.
   

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1135 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 20:31:52 »
Still looking at around end of year. 

Offline Giorgio

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1136 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 23:00:44 »
 Sorry for my curiosity, probably it has been already said, but why unicomp wasn't chosen for the keys?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1137 on: Mon, 14 August 2017, 23:18:09 »
Giorgio we are ordering brand new one piece molds matching the quality of IBM's XT keys.  Unicomp does not offer this.  We are also custom making molds for special keys like the 1.75U non-stepped shift/caps lock keys.

Offline Giorgio

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1138 on: Tue, 15 August 2017, 03:25:00 »
Giorgio we are ordering brand new one piece molds matching the quality of IBM's XT keys.  Unicomp does not offer this.  We are also custom making molds for special keys like the 1.75U non-stepped shift/caps lock keys.

Ah! I thought that at least for the keys they were on par with old IBM, since they use their equipment!

You're making a great effort with this project, and I'm happy that many people have followed you. I'm actually searching for an old model m, to understand how much I like buckling springs. Probably I'll join in the next rounds!

Offline Ramiel

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1139 on: Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:30:18 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Offline Kavik

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1140 on: Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:33:56 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1141 on: Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:35:40 »
Sorry I will not be shipping out incomplete or untested keyboards.  We are still waiting on production to finish on some of the parts.

Offline Ramiel

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1142 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 08:47:05 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.

Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.

The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.

I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1143 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 08:59:31 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.

Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.

The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.

I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.

"They" is one man, Ellipse.  This is his project and he says what happens.  We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining.  When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking  him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months.  I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting.  Sorry if that sounds harsh. 

This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.

Offline PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1144 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 10:24:24 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.

Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.

The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.

I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.

"They" is one man, Ellipse.  This is his project and he says what happens.  We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining.  When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking  him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months.  I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting.  Sorry if that sounds harsh. 

This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.

Ya sorry but you're being ridiculous. Totally reasonable to request that your order be shipped out early. What's the difference between Ellipse's perfect new flippers, made exactly to IBM specs, vs. those from an actual Model F ,you know ,made by IBM, supposing someone wants to tear one apart?

Or, you know, someone who has keycaps and doesn't want to wait around another 5 or 6 months for the new ones to be produced?

Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.

But, jesus christ dude, it's not an insult to Ellipse to make the request. If anything it's a compliment, coming from people who want their new model F sometime before they are on their deathbed.

What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
 he just said "No." There are pros and cons to working on these projects with a single person at the head, and one of the major pros is that we can communicate directly with that person. Ellipse can do what he wants, as long as he either delivers a product or our money, but it would nonetheless also be nice if he provided a reason behind this denial. I don't think he's obligated to, but it would be nice.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 August 2017, 10:32:53 by PancakeMSTR »
   

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1145 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 11:12:39 »
Hence why I said, "I believe" it is insulting.  You do not believe it is insulting.  We disagree.  This is a group buy for a new keyboard.  Not parts.

Offline Atredl

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[GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1146 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:09:29 »
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.
That's a very good reason not to do it. It would be a logistical nightmare to start shipping incomplete orders. Allowing one person to do that means you have to allow all people to have that option and now he's no longer going to be shipping keyboards out all at once but instead he's going to be shipping them out for the rest of the year.

Quote
What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
 he just said "No."

Sorry I will not be shipping out incomplete or untested keyboards.  We are still waiting on production to finish on some of the parts.
Untested seems like another pretty good reason why he wouldn't to ship out keyboards in parts. He's signing off that this keyboard is going to work and if for some reason it doesn't then he has to deal with shipping back and forth to get it fixed.

He's also not assembling every board, they're being built at the factory. I very highly doubt they want to start grabbing parts from their bins and shipping parts out every time someone wants their parts.

Again, Logistical nightmare.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:15:24 by Atredl »

Offline tron

  • Posts: 136
  • Location: OH, USA
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1147 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:12:03 »
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.

Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.

Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.

The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.

I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.

"They" is one man, Ellipse.  This is his project and he says what happens.  We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining.  When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking  him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months.  I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting.  Sorry if that sounds harsh. 

This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.

Ya sorry but you're being ridiculous. Totally reasonable to request that your order be shipped out early. What's the difference between Ellipse's perfect new flippers, made exactly to IBM specs, vs. those from an actual Model F ,you know ,made by IBM, supposing someone wants to tear one apart?

Or, you know, someone who has keycaps and doesn't want to wait around another 5 or 6 months for the new ones to be produced?

Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.

But, jesus christ dude, it's not an insult to Ellipse to make the request. If anything it's a compliment, coming from people who want their new model F sometime before they are on their deathbed.

What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
 he just said "No." There are pros and cons to working on these projects with a single person at the head, and one of the major pros is that we can communicate directly with that person. Ellipse can do what he wants, as long as he either delivers a product or our money, but it would nonetheless also be nice if he provided a reason behind this denial. I don't think he's obligated to, but it would be nice.

Due to the weight, I'm 99% sure it would be more expensive to ship single orders or small batches from China to the US. Also, as you point out, the extra administrative time communicating with the factory and the customer. I'm sure he wants these orders to ship out with the efficiency of an assembly line due to the projects complexity.

Offline PancakeMSTR

  • Posts: 491
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1148 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:22:50 »
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.
That's a very good reason not to do it. It would be a logistical nightmare to start shipping incomplete orders. Allowing one person to do that means you have to allow all people to have that option and now he's no longer going to be shipping keyboards out all at once but instead he's going to be shipping them out for the rest of the year.


Ya I agree.
   

Offline Ellipse

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    • Brand New Model F Keyboards
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1149 on: Wed, 16 August 2017, 19:28:41 »
This week I reviewed some quality control metrics with the factory with regards to spring/flipper attachment.  They are keeping notes on the different quality control metrics that we've discussed since the start of the project.  If the factory keeps high quality control standards, that will significantly reduce my one by one testing/adjusting time and speed up delivery for everyone.

Sorry for not being clear before.  It will take another month or so to produce the remaining parts (inner foam, inner steel plates, springs, compact cases) and the new key molds, and then assembly will start while the keys are in production and being dye sublimated.  It is not the case that one component is bottlenecking the timeline.

Also complexity, quality control/inspection, and cost make it difficult to ship certain orders separately from China.