Author Topic: Collectors Are Crazy  (Read 2961 times)

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Offline JP

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Collectors Are Crazy
« on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 19:55:24 »
I just realized that I am not totally insane, albeit partially but the jury is still out on that regard. I mean I have spent a fair bit on keyboards and vintage computers since I started around a year ago, but some collectors really take the cake. Many people are actually surprised that people collect keyboards of all things. I'm sorry I don't fit the mold as a collector of Nascar collectible plates that might be a fortune one day. Take this for example, $72k for a one of a kind Hot Wheels car...seriously?

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Top-10-Hot-Wheels-Cars-All-Time-/10000000177891638/g.html
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Offline captsis

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 22:07:09 »
I mean there was this Clack

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 22:15:16 »
What's crazy is he has that kind of money and YOU don't..

People don't work hours significantly more or less than one another. Yet, they could have radically different incomes..



On the one hand, this is necessary for social-hierarchy ,  on the other hand, it reduces the proletariat class to minimum motivations.

Offline JP

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 22:50:26 »
What's crazy is he has that kind of money and YOU don't..

People don't work hours significantly more or less than one another. Yet, they could have radically different incomes..



On the one hand, this is necessary for social-hierarchy ,  on the other hand, it reduces the proletariat class to minimum motivations.


Income inequality is not crazy or surprising in the least bit. Some individuals for example are hyper productive and do all the work or are creative visionaries. There is so much variability in production and this plays out in any creative realm. Look up Price's law if interested.
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Offline JP

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 22:56:37 »
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 23:07:08 »
I mean there was this Clack

Dang

And that’s just a known public sale. No telling what some have gone for privately, but probably far higher...
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Offline katushkin

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 23:17:08 »
I mean there was this Clack

Two people paid more than that for a Brocap each a couple of years ago...
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 17 February 2018, 23:31:13 »
What's crazy is he has that kind of money and YOU don't..

People don't work hours significantly more or less than one another. Yet, they could have radically different incomes..



On the one hand, this is necessary for social-hierarchy ,  on the other hand, it reduces the proletariat class to minimum motivations.


Income inequality is not crazy or surprising in the least bit. Some individuals for example are hyper productive and do all the work or are creative visionaries. There is so much variability in production and this plays out in any creative realm. Look up Price's law if interested.

I don't think you've spent anytime with the lower proletariat class.

There is immense creative potential in these people.

However, due to our hierarchal structure, they are not able to explore any of those possibilities, because the corporation extracts the maximum amount of their willpower each day.


Look at Japan as a society,  Why would a salary man making 70-100k USD equivalent kill themselves.


Anyone in the united states would consider that a wonderful living.



It is because Japan has advanced to the bitter end of capitalism.. which is thorough vertical integration.


This integration happens more slowly in the USA, due to wider spacing, and larger population..


However, it's inevitable,  And we MUST take a deeper look at societal inequality.



Price's law is bull****, and its interpreted presumptions are wrong..

People are all more or less equivalent machinery with the same capacities. What one machine is not programmed with at any point in time, it can learn.

Achievement and productivity is not quantifiable.


You have 100 papers.. ok, so 50 is written by 5 authors..

The other authors did not write as many papers..

However, perhaps the other authors raised children,  or cooked, or cleaned..


All human effort is effort..   When you take price's law, and arbitrarily PICK ONE ASPECT of achievement and say,  THESE people are better,  that is equivalent to prejudice..


Why are the efforts of  mothers  or nurses or garbage men less important..





Offline JP

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 18 February 2018, 02:11:20 »
@tp4tissue - Although things have taken quite a tangent, I just wanted to address some of your points. I can't say I am well versed with Japanese society though so I am not addressing all facets of your last reply at this time.

"I don't think you've spent anytime with the lower proletariat class."
Based on what?

"There is immense creative potential in these people."

I totally agree. The struggle people have is real and breeds innovation, rather than some trust-fund kid whose future is set in stone and so has little concern.

"Look at Japan as a society,  Why would a salary man making 70-100k USD equivalent kill themselves."

Simply put: Mo' Money Mo' Problems

"However, it's inevitable,  And we MUST take a deeper look at societal inequality.
Price's law is bull****, and its interpreted presumptions are wrong..
People are all more or less equivalent machinery with the same capacities. What one machine is not programmed with at any point in time, it can learn.
Achievement and productivity is not quantifiable.
You have 100 papers.. ok, so 50 is written by 5 authors..
The other authors did not write as many papers..
However, perhaps the other authors raised children,  or cooked, or cleaned.."

I feel you have placed a bit of emotion into all this. Life is not fair and very few things are distributed evenly. Perhaps Price’s law is BS and not applicable is this discussion, but can you deny observable, quantifiable phenomena?

All human effort is effort…yet not all effort is equal when it comes down to an observable result. Let’s say Chyros and I each spend 12 hours a week making YouTube videos or podcasts about keyboards. We each work hard and delivery quality content, but Chyros’ videos start having more views or downloads and soon this success begets more success and this success then grows exponentially. The fact viewers gravitate to Chyros’ content instead of mine is not fair to me if I have applied the same effort is it?

Effort does NOT always translate to achievement or productivity, it sure helps though. You also need the right stuff. Smart people who also conscientiously put the effort into a given endeavor have a dis-proportionally higher chance of succeeding than someone with a lower IQ or someone smart and pathetically lazy.

Consider the Pareto Principle which although is not an immutable law is applicable in many cases, just like the distribution of income. So the 80/20 is oft applied (20% of the population controls the 80% of the money) but the main takeaway is that most things in life are not distributed equally.

20% of the input creates 80% of the result
20% of the workers produce 80% of the result
20% of the customers create 80% of the revenue
20% of the bugs cause 80% of the crashes
20% of the features cause 80% of the usage
And on and on…

“Why are the efforts of  mothers  or nurses or garbage men less important..”

Who is saying one job is better than the other? These are different competitive landscapes. Not everyone can be a classical composer (that people will listen to) or an NBA basketball star (that people will pay to see). Instead there is a diversification of productive games. So if one person is not successful in one domain they might be successful in another. Consider a presumably ancient society which has not articulated the practice of agriculture. Let’s say one member is much faster or is able to run for longer distances and is therefore more effective at running down prey. This becomes important when there is a shortage of game. Now another member of this society that is not successful as a hunter could develop skills making the most kick-ass bows that do not break or fashioning the slickest of spear points which the hunter then uses to get more game.






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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 18 February 2018, 03:02:31 »



Again, you are arbitrarily choosing a small scope of achievement , the ones close to your own perception of success.


Those things are important.

However,  things other people do, however simple,  as long as the time-cost is the same, is just as valuable and EXPENSIVE.



How much value we place on something is corrupted by our bad accounting system.


The raw value of any labor does not change regardless of the type of labor.. Be it hammer to rock,  or brain to books.

It always costs a defined amount of human hours.



This also does not depend on WHO does the labor. Be it a person with high iq or low iq..


When you limit your comprehension to 20% input leads to 80% results.  that is a fundamental shortcoming of cognition.


You always get 1:1 in reality.


When we have odd ratios,  it's only by an incomplete frame analysis.



Let's go back to the scientist who wrote only 1 of 100 papers.


He did 1 paper,  he also raise 1 child, and spent more time with his wife,  who nurtured that child better because HE spent more time with her, The child later goes on to do well in school and in time produces 10 papers.

Alteratively, the scientist could've wrote all 10 papers himself,  neglect his wife, his son ends up doing heroin, and eats up tax dollars for medical care.


How can you possibly quantify total contribution.


We can't,    we use Prejudice in cognition, and say, the 10 papers were worth more in THIS frame in time.. and expect it will be worth as much in the NEXT frame in time.


This is done naturally, because there is finite computing power for analysis.




Now, knowing this, as a social planner,  we have to decide,  IS THERE an arrangement where the two scientists can each write the equal amount of papers, and NO one's children develop a heroin addiction.



By building the capitalist reward system, allowing it tilt so heavily in any one direction,  we've created this innate imbalance that is the Least optimal.



From the Japan example,  The Salary man did not have to commit suicide, had he been given the time to nurture his creative side,  JUST AS, the scientist did not have to neglect his family, if success is not so sharply measured by the amount of papers published..

Offline JP

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 18 February 2018, 09:55:45 »
Well it's not necessarily good or bad that one of the scientists wrote more papers than another. Merely an observation. Beyond this however we may then mistakenly attribute values of success based on output in this case. This is human nature.

"Again, you are arbitrarily choosing a small scope of achievement , the ones close to your own perception of success."

You do the same by saying the drug addict was less successful than the other child who writes 10 papers.

Back to the top, my main point still stands, which is to say that it is not necessarily crazy that one person has much more money than me. Unequal distributions are natural, but I'm not saying it is right or just that one person has more money than another. Most people aren't willing to do what it takes to gain so much. I know I am not. For many there is diminishing utility in doing so. I finding it agreeable that a skilled surgeon earns more than I do by far. I do not want to spend years in medical school or have to deal with the associated pressures. These rewards are justly deserved. Others might simply be foolish with their money by redistributing their money to purveyers of luxury Hot Wheels cars.

Now to say there are societal problems or that an economic system is unfavorably tilted or rigged, perhaps true is beyond the scope of this original thread.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 February 2018, 09:58:27 by JP »
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Offline MKULTRA

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 19 February 2018, 13:09:59 »
I mean there was this Clack
Can somebody post a pic of this Clack? Never heard of that colorway.

Offline joey

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 19 February 2018, 13:12:24 »
I mean there was this Clack
Can somebody post a pic of this Clack? Never heard of that colorway.

Offline ThoughtArtist

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 19 February 2018, 18:28:04 »
If you're making long term investments, I'd be wary of any "collectors items" that are niche items to begin with, like custom keycaps.

Offline captsis

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 21 February 2018, 13:26:30 »
If you're making long term investments, I'd be wary of any "collectors items" that are niche items to begin with, like custom keycaps.
The words investment and custom-keycaps don't belong in the same sentence.

Offline Signature

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 21 February 2018, 13:38:30 »
If you're making long term investments, I'd be wary of any "collectors items" that are niche items to begin with, like custom keycaps.
The words investment and custom-keycaps don't belong in the same sentence.
The artisan market is so new that we don't know how values will fluctuate. If the community doesn't decrease, some artisans will hold their value and some won't.
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Offline Blaise170

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 21 February 2018, 14:28:39 »
The artisan market is so new that we don't know how values will fluctuate. If the community doesn't decrease, some artisans will hold their value and some won't.

The problem is that you are now looking at a niche within a niche. The keyboard community is really not that large (if we look at the aggregate of Reddit+GH+DT and then throw in some scattered people here and there, you are looking at no more than probably 300K people, most of whom own no more than 1-2 keyboards), and then the people who actually collect artisan keycaps is even smaller than that.

This is completely hypothetical, but I'd guess that true keyboard "collectors" is less than 10K. I'm basing this number on active Geekhack and Deskthority users only, as those on Reddit are likely already registered here or the aforementioned owner of 1-2 keyboards that aren't collectors. Let's be generous and say that 10% of all collectors enjoy artisans (who are willing to pay more than $20-30 for one) and we are looking at a number of only 1000 or so people.
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Offline captsis

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 21 February 2018, 14:32:12 »
The artisan market is so new that we don't know how values will fluctuate. If the community doesn't decrease, some artisans will hold their value and some won't.

The problem is that you are now looking at a niche within a niche. The keyboard community is really not that large (if we look at the aggregate of Reddit+GH+DT and then throw in some scattered people here and there, you are looking at no more than probably 300K people, most of whom own no more than 1-2 keyboards), and then the people who actually collect artisan keycaps is even smaller than that.

This is completely hypothetical, but I'd guess that true keyboard "collectors" is less than 10K. I'm basing this number on active Geekhack and Deskthority users only, as those on Reddit are likely already registered here or the aforementioned owner of 1-2 keyboards that aren't collectors. Let's be generous and say that 10% of all collectors enjoy artisans (who are willing to pay more than $20-30 for one) and we are looking at a number of only 1000 or so people.
1000 seems a bit low no? Bigger MD drops go into the thousands IIRC. Unless we're only talking artisans and not keysets.
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 February 2018, 14:35:53 by matt2dlg »

Offline Blaise170

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 21 February 2018, 14:41:38 »
1000 seems a bit low no? Bigger MD drops go into the thousands IIRC. Unless we're only talking artisans and not keysets.
[/quote]

Just artisans.
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Offline Signature

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Re: Collectors Are Crazy
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 21 February 2018, 14:47:20 »
The artisan market is so new that we don't know how values will fluctuate. If the community doesn't decrease, some artisans will hold their value and some won't.

The problem is that you are now looking at a niche within a niche. The keyboard community is really not that large (if we look at the aggregate of Reddit+GH+DT and then throw in some scattered people here and there, you are looking at no more than probably 300K people, most of whom own no more than 1-2 keyboards), and then the people who actually collect artisan keycaps is even smaller than that.

This is completely hypothetical, but I'd guess that true keyboard "collectors" is less than 10K. I'm basing this number on active Geekhack and Deskthority users only, as those on Reddit are likely already registered here or the aforementioned owner of 1-2 keyboards that aren't collectors. Let's be generous and say that 10% of all collectors enjoy artisans (who are willing to pay more than $20-30 for one) and we are looking at a number of only 1000 or so people.
What I mean is that there can be room for a niche in a niche if the community will stay at around the same size. 1000$ for the mizkite is one of highest sums paid for an artisan and I don't believe every miz-kite from now on will be sold at that price. However I do believe clacks for example will land at a price where it's over the retail value but maybe not as high as today. Now hype is causing the price to rise.

Look at rolex watches or old cars. Almost all people have a watch but only a handful owns a rolex or a really expenisve vintage car. The market will always exist until the demand is lower than the people willing to sell.
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