Who the heck uses right Alt and Ctrl

[msiegel]

I seem to always use the left Alt and Ctrl.

Is anyone using the right ones?


...besides Alt Gr, for Europeans...

[AndrewZorn]

right ctrl, on normal keyboards, is for a fancy ctrl+enter or ctrl+shift+enter in web browsers

alt+enter fullscreen normally

i cant think of anything else
should probably add them to the list

scroll lock
pause/break
right ctrl
right alt

[msiegel]

caps lock

just kidding, i use caps lock as ctrl

[Rajagra]

They are a legacy from the days when you needed to do Ctrl-Alt-Del so often, and it was convenient to do it one-handed. :lol:

But right Ctrl is handy for the arrows and Home/End, even Del. And Break.

[AndrewZorn]

oh right
and ctrl-alt-del

which i havent used much since i found out about ctl+shift+esc
well, not NEAR AS much...
i just need taskman a lot

[msiegel]

They are a legacy from the days when you needed to do Ctrl-Alt-Del so often, and it was convenient to do it one-handed.

it's the vulcan nerve pinch!

well, i learned something new today

[Rajagra]

Yes. The good old three-finger salute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zADyh0JQh8

[d2v]

I use right Alt and Ctrl all the time. For QWERTY users, the proper way (IMO, of course) to do Ctrl-x, Ctrl-c and Ctrl-v is to use right control key. I use Dvorak, but I still use right Ctrl when I have to press another key with left hand.
Right Alt is useful for Emacs' M-x (Alt-x) keystroke, even with dvorak. Also for Alt-F4.

[pseudolobster]

I use left right alt all the time for alt+left (back in most browsers), or alt+enter (fullscreen in a lot of apps)

Left Right alt is also used by all sorts of different languages, since it's technically the "altGR" key, used to compose foreign characters such as the accent keys in french and german and so forth (å,ç,ê,ï,ë, etc etc)

Now that you mention it though, I have absolutely never used the right ctrl key, nor the windows menu key (even when I have a keyboard with that key on it I end up using shift+f10, or, you know, the right mouse button)

[pseudolobster]

Right Alt is useful for Emacs' M-x (Alt-x) keystroke, even with dvorak. Also for Alt-F4.

People still use that OS? I thought emacs died in the 70's or so...

[d2v]

People still use that OS? I thought emacs died in the 70's or so...

Yes, they do.

On a side note, there exists a wiki of all text editors that ever existed, at http://texteditors.org.

[msiegel]

I use right Alt and Ctrl all the time. For QWERTY users, the proper way (IMO, of course) to do Ctrl-x, Ctrl-c and Ctrl-v is to use right control key.

ah, good idea

[pseudolobster]

Yes, they do.

On a side note, there exists a wiki of all text editors that ever existed, at http://texteditors.org.

Oh, you use it as a text editor

Oh.

Well then... Okay. Carry on I suppose.

[kw71]

People still use that OS? I thought emacs died in the 70's or so...

You should try emacs if you're not familiar with it.  Since the 'War on Drugs' it's really the only safe way to "trip" nowadays.

[Xuan]

Oh, you use it as a text editor

Oh.

Well then... Okay. Carry on I suppose.

And you see it as an OS

[pseudolobster]

And you see it as an OS

That I say, I say that was a joke, son.

Honestly though, I see it as a bloated pile of unused and unnecessary code.. Last time I installed it I used it to play tetris for a few minutes, then went back to vi. I see it as the microsoft office of text editors.

[msiegel]

a bloated pile of unused and unnecessary code

ok, so you won't be needing right alt and ctrl for *that*...

[d2v]

The lack of second control key is a major frustration on keyboards with the Sun layout  (including HHKB). The Sun type 7 keyboard that I have at work, has 'Alt Graph' and 'Compose' keys in the lower right corner, below the right Shift.

[quadibloc]

I seem to always use the left Alt and Ctrl.

Is anyone using the right ones?

How else would you type, say, Ctrl-C? The keys are there on both sides of the keyboard so that, like the shift key, they can be used to modify keys on both sides of the keyboard after the fashion of normal touch-typing.

It's true that the Alt key isn't used much, unless one is using an application with keyboard shortcuts.

[msiegel]

How else would you type, say, Ctrl-C? The keys are there on both sides of the keyboard so that, like the shift key, they can be used to modify keys on both sides of the keyboard after the fashion of normal touch-typing.

It's true that the Alt key isn't used much, unless one is using an application with keyboard shortcuts.

I'm on the Mac, and I use left Alt as Command. Caps Lock functions as Ctrl, and Win is used as Option.

I don't use the normal Ctrl keys, nor the right Alt, Windows, or Menu keys

[kode]

Honestly though, I see it as a bloated pile of unused and unnecessary code.. Last time I installed it I used it to play tetris for a few minutes, then went back to vi. I see it as the microsoft office of text editors.

Show Image

Must say I liked that screencap. The guy who put it up on the lysator web server has a .emacs and a .emacs.d in his home directory, so I'm pretty sure he uses emacs. :)

vi is bloat. ed is where it's at.

[ironcoder]

I seem to always use the left Alt and Ctrl.

Is anyone using the right ones?


...besides Alt Gr, for Europeans...

Yes, I use right alt as an escape for VirtualBox. It works great for that since it's useless for anything else. Right ctrl, never. I usually remap some/all of the useless keys including the winbloze keys if the board has them, since I need extra keys for IBM terminal emulation.

[ironcoder]

And you see it as an OS

That's a joke, because Emacs is so huge and has so many zillions of features that have nothing to do with editing because it was written in a special dialect of Lisp that lets you customize it without end. They say Emacs is a horrible OS with a good editor, something like that.

[ironcoder]

People still use that OS? I thought emacs died in the 70's or so...

Yes it died in the 1970s and yes we still use it.

[ironcoder]

How else would you type, say, Ctrl-C? The keys are there on both sides of the keyboard so that, like the shift key, they can be used to modify keys on both sides of the keyboard after the fashion of normal touch-typing.

It's true that the Alt key isn't used much, unless one is using an application with keyboard shortcuts.

Clearly you are a young guy who has never learned to player twister (do you know what that is?) on the keyboard.

Ctrl-C is properly executed by putting your left thumb on ctrl, your left index finger on left shift and hitting c with your right index finger. Right shift, right alt, and right ctrl are strictly passe.

The main idea is to always use the left hand for alt, ctrl, and shift and the right hand for any other characters used in combination with those 3.

[DreymaR]

The right-hand Ctrl key is used for one-handed Ctrl+PgUp/Dn, Ctrl-arrows and suchlike. Useful for some of my programs.

[Rajagra]

How else would you type, say, Ctrl-C? The keys are there on both sides of the keyboard so that, like the shift key, they can be used to modify keys on both sides of the keyboard after the fashion of normal touch-typing.

True, but how often have you heard people criticize Dvorak because the layout goes against their muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts? There are clearly a vast number of people doing Ctrl-X/C/V using just their left hand. And they consider it to be the right way.

[d2v]

True, but how often have you heard people criticize Dvorak because the layout goes against their muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts? There are clearly a vast number of people doing Ctrl-X/C/V using just their left hand. And they consider it to be the right way.

When I started using dvorak, it took me a total of two weeks to get used to new positions of X, C and V. All it takes is consistently following the correct Control key usage (left or right). Some typing lessons also help in memorizing new letter positions.

Another way to do it is to use Ctrl-Insert for copy, Shift-Insert for paste, and Shift-Delete for cut. These are legacy shortcuts from DOS era, and are independent of the layout (so long as modifiers don't move)

[msiegel]

True, but how often have you heard people criticize Dvorak because the layout goes against their muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts? There are clearly a vast number of people doing Ctrl-X/C/V using just their left hand. And they consider it to be the right way.

yep, left hand is the right way

uh-oh, i'm a caps lock control swapper

[FourOhFour]

Blog and comments here.

I personally just use my left hand for modifiers including SHIFT just because it involves less pinky stretching.

Same. And judging from the wear patterns on this model m, same with it's previous owners. Right shift looks untouched, while all the left modifiers have a little shine to them. Even caps lock.

I'll occasionally use right command (alt) for cmd-L, [, and ] (focus address bar, back, and forward), and right shift for shift-pageup/down.

[itlnstln]

I use my left pinky for all modifiers myself.  I guess I really never noticed why, but as ripster said, the left pinky has to do less stretching to get to those positions, so I think, subconciously, I ended up using my left pinky exclusively.  I never really use the right Ctrl and Alt for anything more than the three finger salute.

[d2v]

Blog and comments here.

I personally just use my left hand for modifiers including SHIFT just because it involves less pinky stretching.

Xah Lee has been posting on the Emacs mailing lists for years. He is also pushing for Common User Access (CUA) controls (Ctrl-X, C, V) to be default.
I was using caps lock as ctrl until I read his article.

Yes, the pinky has to do all the heavy lifting in pressing the modifier keys, resulting in sore pinky problem. (Emacs is famous for this, and this issue frequently comes up in Emacs vs. Vi flamewars. )

I suppose the humble hacker keyboard layout gets it right. It puts the modifier keys between left and right hand keys, to be actuated by index finger.

[itlnstln]

I suppose the humble hacker keyboard layout gets it right. It puts the modifier keys between left and right hand keys, to be actuated by index finger.

I think the uTron keyboard does the same thing.

[ironcoder]

I personally just use my left hand for modifiers including SHIFT just because it involves less pinky stretching.

I learned that way too. I use the left thumb for alt or ctrl and another left finger for most keys west of L or O. East of that is right hand land.

The pinky never gets used, I don't think.

[itlnstln]

If you use your left thumb for Ctrl duties, I can see why you might not like having Windows keys.  Win keys put Ctrl in the perfect spot for pinky use.

[ironcoder]

I don't get it, on all the keyboards I have ctrl is always the leftmost key. Did you mean alt?

My objection to winbloze keys is purely MS hatred and the fact that they have no function since I don't use bloze. If I have them they just get in the way, but I think I use every keyboard more or less the same way. I expect ctrl and then alt somewhere east of that.

[ch_123]

Alt Gr is useful. Could live without right control though.

[itlnstln]

I don't get it, on all the keyboards I have ctrl is always the leftmost key. Did you mean alt?
 
My objection to winbloze keys is purely MS hatred and the fact that they have no function since I don't use bloze. If I have them they just get in the way, but I think I use every keyboard more or less the same way. I expect ctrl and then alt somewhere east of that.

Nevermind.  I was thinking that Ctrl was right next to Alt on the older 'boards.

[ironcoder]

Yes it probably is. The winbloze key is usually right between them on new boards.

I can't remember because alt and ctrl don't compute for IBM keyboards, but when I use NIX I use them.

[urlwolf]

The proper way to do Ctrl-x, Ctrl-c and Ctrl-v is to use right control key. In general, all chords are better done with two hands. I was surprised by this too. I read it on the kinesis manual, they say that one-handed shortcuts are dangerous, and I believe it now (a reference wouldn't hurt; if anyone finds  one, please post).

I have hundreds of autohotkey shortcuts that a did single-handed. needless to say, I got pain, and worried about being able to type long stretches anymore. Fortunately, after using the kinesis contour AND good chording on any other keyboard, no pain to speak of. Be careful out there

[Rajagra]

The idea of using the palm of your hand to hit Ctrl is unintuitive, but brilliant. I must remind myself to try doing it. The joint at the base of my pinkie is in just the right place.

It would be worth having extra height on the Ctrl key to make it even easier.

[ironcoder]

Alt Gr is useful. Could live without right control though.

Ok, what is Gr?

[itlnstln]

Ok, what is Gr?

IIRC, AltGr is used on German layouts as a modifier to type alternate forms of letters used in the language.

[ironcoder]

Thanks no wonder I never heard of it!

[Rajagra]

IIRC, AltGr is used on German layouts as a modifier to type alternate forms of letters used in the language.

I think you'll find that vanilla US layout is about the only one that doesn't use it.

[texteur]

IIRC, AltGr is used on German layouts as a modifier to type alternate forms of letters used in the language.

Exactly the same on Swiss French keyboards (very close to German ones).

[AndrewZorn]

çółémák ȟä§ ít

[lowpoly]

The proper way to do Ctrl-x, Ctrl-c and Ctrl-v is to use right control key.

When in Photoshop I use my left hand for Ctrl combinations. Ctrl on
CapsLock is much easier to reach then, especially for Ctrl-X. And Ctrl-Z with the palm on the lower left Ctrl - no thanks.

I use my palm on the lower left Ctrl when I Ctrl-click with the Trackpoint.

Ok, what is Gr?

Gr is for Graphics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altgr

[Hakhu]

That's a joke, because Emacs is so huge and has so many zillions of features that have nothing to do with editing because it was written in a special dialect of Lisp that lets you customize it without end. They say Emacs is a horrible OS with a good editor, something like that.

Yeah, almost. They (tm) say: "it's a great OS without any good text editor."
But yeah, the reasoning for this is right.

Anyway, we still use emacs at work. And it's still great, as an editor, for version control, to compile. One of my collegues uses it to read mail and as a web browser.
So yeah ... it's almost an OS.

There was a guy once that used emacs to control his coffee machine.

[Hakhu]

Almost forgot:

I use left ALT as Meta for emacs. Don't really need ALT. And the right CTRL as Multi-Key to write German Umlaute, like ü, ö and ä, if I have to write a mail in German.