[IC] GMK alphas €49.5/set

[Giorgio]

Hello geekhackers, what do you think about a gmk alphas set?

Since there has just been a soware run by others, it will almost certainly be 2M on 2B (white font on gray keycaps).

I will probably add a 1.25u R4 and a 1u R4, since most modifiers set don't include that!

A thread by wodan with further discussion about an international addon to the alphas: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85609.0

(74 pcs.) including n.3 spacebars (6u, 6.25u, 7u)

MOQ 150 sets, 49.5€/set, (net, EXW, individual sorting and packing in a shrink-wrapped plastic tray)

[wodan]

Add an International/NORDE kit and I'm in.

Getting just alphas is a great idea though. I have so many modifier kits just not enough alphas

[Giorgio]

How many keys are needed for the Norde, probably about 15 keys? that should be about €13...

Add an International/NORDE kit and I'm in.

Getting just alphas is a great idea though. I have so many modifier kits just not enough alphas

[wodan]

This is a great "full" NORDE/GB kit put together by Tombery:


Unfortunately, it's not very compact. I've been trying for a while to assemble a smaller kit that makes GMK NORDE kits more likely to happen. Will keep you updated.

[ideus]

I'd be in for an alpha set if it is made in U9 base color and includes an E-profile \|. Maybe a variation in the font color would be nice, something in the lines of HF or Carbon. An U9 base set would be a great set to mix and match with multiple modifiers, even to add some nice touches to classic beige sets, or to add hints for alternate layers.

[Giorgio]

I'd be in for an alpha set if it is made in U9 base color and includes an E-profile \|. Maybe a variation in the font color would be nice, something in the lines of HF or Carbon. An U9 base set would be a great set to mix and match with multiple modifiers, even to add some nice touches to classic beige sets, or to add hints for alternate layers.

what is an E-profile \|? If it is an R4 \|, it's already included.

Thanks for the suggestion about the color.

[ideus]

I'd be in for an alpha set if it is made in U9 base color and includes an E-profile \|. Maybe a variation in the font color would be nice, something in the lines of HF or Carbon. An U9 base set would be a great set to mix and match with multiple modifiers, even to add some nice touches to classic beige sets, or to add hints for alternate layers.

what is an E-profile \|? If it is an R4 \|, it's already included.

Thanks for the suggestion about the color.

It is the row 1, numbers row, in old Cherry jargon, sorry for the anachronism.

[pomk]

As the MOQ is the same, I'd say that a norde 'kit' is not a good idea, but rather a full norde 'set' (ie. a combined ansi + norde 'kit' as in wodan's post, and remove all ansi only keys). I can compose a set of keys which should cover most users.

[ideus]

As the MOQ is the same, I'd say that a norde 'kit' is not a good idea, but rather a full norde 'set' (ie. a combined ansi + norde 'kit' as in wodan's post, and remove all ansi only keys). I can compose a set of keys which should cover most users.

This may work, but only in traditional Beige colors, to go along with existing sets. I am really interested in see what the OP comes with, after some additional discussion.

[pomk]

So something like this. The MOQ is the same as for a norde 'kit' anyway and the total price is lower, likely around 50€ (half of the 'sorting' & 'setup' price and 19 keys less than with buying ansi + adapter separately).

[Giorgio]

I think that in this first phase we can only think about adding 5 keys maximum to the base set.

Considering that one key costs about €0.8, it's impossible to add 20 keys to the base set... this kills the alpha. If only we had 100 buyers from Norway...

In the interest of all, national localization addons should only be designed as separated addon sets.

Your turn :-)

[Giorgio]

Just to give my readers an idea of the enormous number of keys needed for a proper localization, here are some addons:

[pomk]

I think that in this first phase we can only think about adding 5 keys maximum to the base set.

Considering that one key costs about €0.8, it's impossible to add 20 keys to the base set... this kills the alpha. If only we had 100 buyers from Norway...

In the interest of all, national localization addons should only be designed as separated addon sets.

Your turn :-)

I do not understand your comment. I do not propose to add keys to the main kit, rather because the MOQ is no different and with a _separate complete set_ the norde folk would save a lot of money, I propose to run a completely separate complete kit for norde only. This would be in addition of the ansi set you have in the first post.

[Giorgio]

I think that in this first phase we can only think about adding 5 keys maximum to the base set.

Considering that one key costs about €0.8, it's impossible to add 20 keys to the base set... this kills the alpha. If only we had 100 buyers from Norway...

In the interest of all, national localization addons should only be designed as separated addon sets.

Your turn :-)

I do not understand your comment. I do not propose to add keys to the main kit, rather because the MOQ is no different and with a _separate complete set_ the norde folk would save a lot of money, I propose to run a completely separate complete kit for norde only. This would be in addition of the ansi set you have in the first post.

Sorry... I didn't get it... I'm too tired :-) If the main set gets any traction, and we can optimistically think that it can reach the the moq, we can obviously consider any variation from the beaten track. But consider also that there are substantial discounts. So, it's probably cheaper to sell 300 main sets plus a national addon, than selling 150 main sets, plus 150 norde complete sets.

[pomk]

I think that in this first phase we can only think about adding 5 keys maximum to the base set.

Considering that one key costs about €0.8, it's impossible to add 20 keys to the base set... this kills the alpha. If only we had 100 buyers from Norway...

In the interest of all, national localization addons should only be designed as separated addon sets.

Your turn :-)

I do not understand your comment. I do not propose to add keys to the main kit, rather because the MOQ is no different and with a _separate complete set_ the norde folk would save a lot of money, I propose to run a completely separate complete kit for norde only. This would be in addition of the ansi set you have in the first post.

Sorry... I didn't get it... I'm too tired :-) If the main set gets any traction, and we can optimistically think that it can reach the the moq, we can obviously consider any variation from the beaten track. But consider also that there are substantial discounts. So, it's probably cheaper to sell 300 main sets plus a national addon, than selling 150 main sets, plus 150 norde complete sets.

I dont think that the offset of lower price tiers would overweight the 19 unnecessary keys in the ansi base. This can easily be tested by quoting at 300 MOQ as well and if the difference is larger than a 30 key addon we should of course go that route. Also I think that it is easier to sell 150 norde sets at 50€ than it is to sell 150 42€ ansi sets with 30€ norde addon. The ansi set will tip anyway, I'm just saying that 50€ is less than 70€. Addons have a point if MOQ can vary, or if there is a large extended audience who wish to buy just the addon, which I don't realistically think there is.

[xondat]

As long as there are keys with bars AND keys with scoops, and the color is nice, I'll probably be in. I hope the colors match with bluegaloo or purple mods. Dark letters with a lighter base is preferable.

[slot demon]

I probably would also be in, I have many colourful mods but no nice alphas.

[repuls0r]

Would love Alphas in RO1.

[jchan94]

Would love Alphas in RO1.

GMK Flames will feature P3 Alphas, very close to RO2

[wodan]

I have spent some time putting together the non-ANSI keys of some ISO locales. Came up with ~35 keys that would help covering GB, DE and NO/SE/DK quite well while also offering decent coverage for ES/PT/IT locales:


The GREEN keys are my proposals for the "Wodan International Kit" ... that should be <30$

[pomk]

I have spent some time putting together the non-ANSI keys of some ISO locales. Came up with ~35 keys that would help covering GB, DE and NO/SE/DK quite well while also offering decent coverage for ES/PT/IT locales:

Show Image

The GREEN keys are my proposals for the "Wodan International Kit" ... that should be <30$

You seem to have removed a lot of number row keys completely, while retaining tetritary legends on alphas. I'd go the other way. Spending 70+€ on alphas and still having incorrect keys seems counter intuitive when an all inclusive norde set can be had at ~50€. Of course uk would not be covered, but it's not really on yours either and they have usually coverage on gmk kits anyway. Pt&es is nice to see though, I should see about adding that support and see how many keys it would take.

[wodan]

This is the KLE link to my current design:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6f7830fa68c43c022e3d691bddb1a9a2

You can see that I market five of the previously green keys yellow since they are candidates for further optimization.

An all-inclusive NORDE kit for 50$ has never happened and is very unlikely to happen unless you have ridiculously popular set like Carbon.
Getting NORDE on board for ~25-30$ might make some keycap set designers consider adding these keys to their GMK base kits.

And the Mµ might even replace the M key in an ANSI set. Mµ FTW!

[pomk]

This is the KLE link to my current design:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6f7830fa68c43c022e3d691bddb1a9a2

You can see that I market five of the previously green keys yellow since they are candidates for further optimization.

An all-inclusive NORDE kit for 50$ has never happened and is very unlikely to happen unless you have ridiculously popular set like Carbon.
Getting NORDE on board for ~25-30$ might make some keycap set designers consider adding these keys to their GMK base kits.

And the Mµ might even replace the M key in an ANSI set. Mµ FTW!

So what you are saying here is that for this alphas only gb, which Giorgio is putting in place, we are more likely to get 150 norde + es + pt buyers at 70€ who are willing to get incomplete sets, than it is to get 150 norde buyers at 50€ and with complete coverage. I'm confused. As for adding keys to other GMK buys base sets in the  future, I agree that switching from UK to some other locales would be a nice thing to see, but even then I would vote for accurate sets one locale at a time, rather than 5 random keys from every locale.

[KHAANNN]

This makes a lot of sense

I've also been urging Originative to do this too

Since there are separate modifier packs, it makes sense to let people mix and match sets to their hearts desire

For the color selection, I think, go for T9 on 2B (or another white instead of T9, but 2B as the base is the objective)

It's both unique and neutral

[wodan]

What are you talking about? A 50$ complete NORDE kit lso needs the matching alphas. For what colour scheme could you see a complete NORDE kit happen? Carbon is the only one I can think of and that's in the making.

My hope is this could become something that replaces the rudimentary ISO-UK kit included in some GMK base kits and offer much more coverage for the smallest markup possible.

If you follow an all-or-nothing approach here, you will continue to see zero GMK sets with Nordic support. I would love to see complete NORDE/International kits like it's possible with SP MOQ but with GMK MOQ this is illusionary. My goal is to find the golden compromise, if you want to contribute to that you're welcome but if you keep telling me that ALL TEH KEYS is better than almost all the keys that are almost perfectly matching, I got the message and can't do anything about it. If this is your personal standard, I am unable to help you.

[pomk]

So something like this. The MOQ is the same as for a norde 'kit' anyway and the total price is lower, likely around 50€ (half of the 'sorting' & 'setup' price and 19 keys less than with buying ansi + adapter separately).

(Attachment Link)

What are you talking about? A 50$ complete NORDE kit lso needs the matching alphas. For what colour scheme could you see a complete NORDE kit happen? Carbon is the only one I can think of and that's in the making.

My hope is this could become something that replaces the rudimentary ISO-UK kit included in some GMK base kits and offer much more coverage for the smallest markup possible.

If you follow an all-or-nothing approach here, you will continue to see zero GMK sets with Nordic support. I would love to see complete NORDE/International kits like it's possible with SP MOQ but with GMK MOQ this is illusionary. My goal is to find the golden compromise, if you want to contribute to that you're welcome but if you keep telling me that ALL TEH KEYS is better than almost all the keys that are almost perfectly matching, I got the message and can't do anything about it. If this is your personal standard, I am unable to help you.

At Giorgio's 0,8€ per key estimate, this would be around 52€ and does not require matching alphas.

I propose to run this in addition to the ansi set in the first post instead of a norde 'addon', as this would be cheaper.

[wodan]

At Giorgio's 0,8€ per key estimate, this would be around 52€ and does not require matching alphas.

I propose to run this in addition to the ansi set in the first post instead of a norde 'addon', as this would be cheaper.

What locale is that?
Do you really thing a SINGLE ISO locale set could hit 150 units?
Can you name enough community members to at least sell 20 of these kits?

There's a GMK Dolch GB run in a German keyboard community, a VERY popular color scheme that has very limited availability in ISO-DE so far - best case scenario for a successful GB - and they will have a hard time reaching MOQ.

The best chance we have is the "almost full" NORDE kit that will hopefully soon be offered for Carbon. Making a NORDE kit for GMK Carbon was the initial inspiration for this whole effort here. I am curious to see if Carbon, by far the most successful GMK GB in the recent history, can support sales of 150 "full" Norde kits.

ISO-Int support in GMK GBs has been very disappointing for me so far and I want to improve it. So far we are seeing more and more large GMK sets that include a few ISO-UK keycaps which are probably already in the kit I am working on.

Take this GMK GB as an example: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85147.0
They already include the Q@ and Mµ and two ISO-UK keycaps. With an just 28 additional keys (current key count 148 so just 19% more keys) they could offer very good support for four additional ISO locales and add rudimentary support for another three locales!

Sorry, I am derailing this thread a little. Will open a new thread for my proposal and hope maybe this "ISO-International essentials kit" is taken into consideration/calculation by the OP.

[Giorgio]

Sorry, I am derailing this thread a little. Will open a new thread for my proposal and hope maybe this "ISO-International essentials kit" is taken into consideration/calculation by the OP.

Thank you for all the your suggestions on this impervious topic. For what I know this IC is one of the first to try to find support for alphas, I hope that it can gain some interest, and that others can follow, opening some space for creative combinations.

I express my full support for an international addon to this alpha gb, but I think that making a new thread where we can express all our opinions about localization is the best choice, in order to focus on colors and small additions to the base set that I've defined.

[wodan]

...a new thread where we can express all our opinions about localization is the best choice, in order to focus on colors and small additions to the base set that I've defined.

Done: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85609.0

[pomk]

What locale is that?

FI/SWE, NO and DE are combined in that example.

[Giorgio]

The suggestions so far, in order of my personal preference.

khaan: "T9 grey on 2B (or another white instead of T9, but 2B as the base is the objective)"
This is a great suggestion, I think that 2B is quite unique, and that it would look really nice with many sets: WOB, bluegaloo, carbon, black modifiers, dolch, triumph adler...

ideus: "U9 base color. Maybe a variation in the font color would be nice, something in the lines of HF or Carbon. "

xondat: "Dark letters with a lighter base is preferable."

repulsor: "Would love Alphas in RO1."









gmk snes uses 2B for the modifiers, and 2M for the alphas

[KHAANNN]

Another option is simply going with an N9 base, or a custom color between N9 and 2B

Indeed 2B is unique, but I'm afraid it's more on the cheap side of the grey spectrum, it would be nice to catch the "Pebble" shade of grey, maybe we could even call it "GMK Pebble"

[My_Thoughts]

this could be interesting

[Giorgio]

this could be interesting

Thanks, please let me know if you have preferences about the colours.
I'm starting to think that I should offer something that goes well with skidata, carbon, and classic beige.

[KHAANNN]

I think Bluegaloo + This: https://www.originativeco.com/products/magenta-mods might be better targets

Carbon already has awesome alphas

[Giorgio]

I think Bluegaloo + This: https://www.originativeco.com/products/magenta-mods might be better targets

Carbon already has awesome alphas

Ok I'll think about that, and if it's possible to improve them. They both need white fonts...

[Giorgio]

The original TA had light grey alphas. The recent remake switched to almost white.

[KHAANNN]

Those are some good looking alphas

That shift is so crooked tho, cherry stabs gone wrong
Probably the owner is a pinky shift user

[TalkingTree]

The original TA had light grey alphas.

Pretty much like the OG Olivetti.

[Giorgio]

originale orangesicle


carbon


skidata


bluegaloo


wob


hyperfuse


IC mistery machine

[My_Thoughts]

Do you really thing a SINGLE ISO locale set could hit 150 units?
Can you name enough community members to at least sell 20 of these kits?

I suspect that right now it would be hard to get a 150 order together but I also think for ISO users we are going about it all wrong. 

Right now there are 3 main English language sites (geekhack, deskthority and reddit) and they all seem to slant towards different needs and users.  There are also the Massdrop comments that really seem to have a solid number of users that do not visit the other sites.  On top of that there is the German forum and I think there is a Nordic forum somewhere.

There are now a number of ISO focused shops (uk keycaps comes to mind) that would have ISO customers who might never see the forums or cannot be bothered looking through pages of forums for a good ISO set.  I have no idea how to get them on board as they exist to sell keycaps and massdrop is probably the best place for this to happen.

I think if there was a great GMK set  that offered excellent ISO support *and* the  creators spent time getting all the forums supporting it *and* it was offered via massdrop *and* there was a sales tax solution for the made in EU, shipped to USA, shipped back to EU problem then it could work.

But that is a large number of "if" statements to work through.  Probably getting the message out on reddit is important, but the format and speed of the site makes that very hard to do.

[KHAANNN]

A bit of color correction might be needed

And here's one of my layouts: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/29246eecf5d733689a4bbc9ba9a85178

You can use the style + icons

[Giorgio]

A bit of color correction might be needed

And here's one of my layouts: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/29246eecf5d733689a4bbc9ba9a85178

You can use the style + icons

thanks :-)
I added the spacebars to the main set, raising the price a little.

[ideus]

If the base color you want to use is a light one, L9 will make more sense, to go along existing OG Cherry beige sets, that makes the base set interesting for a wider audience; or, it would be an additional incentive for those that want the set if they already have some L9 base set, like our European fellows.

[Applet]

Any plans on adding the light "\|" R1 1U key for HHKB-layout? That should be the only key required to support the layout right? Most of the modifier-kits come with HHKB-support

[daftendire]

I like this idea. Orange legends would be my least preferred color however.

[Giorgio]

I like this idea. Orange legends would be my least preferred color however.

Sorry for that :-|
I'm trying to chsose something that goes along with well established sets.
What's your suggestion? thanks

[Giorgio]

Any plans on adding the light "\|" R1 1U key for HHKB-layout? That should be the only key required to support the layout right? Most of the modifier-kits come with HHKB-support

I think that hhkb would require two keys, not just one. See the keys circled in yellow. If there's demand, we could add it.
What do you think about the colors?

[Giorgio]

If there's interest in a lower cost set, blank keys cost about €0.5/each. So for a set of 50 keys, the cost would be €25.

But I don't think that I could have much following...

[daftendire]

I like this idea. Orange legends would be my least preferred color however.

Sorry for that :-|
I'm trying to chose something that goes well with well established sets.
What's your suggestion? thanks

I think Khaannn's suggestion of light grey T9 onto a darker grey would be nice. Very universal and can pair with most standalone modifier packs that are readily available. Those color specific alphanumeric options (orange, blue) were already available with their respective group buys and therefore might not have as much interest behind them.