Author Topic: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.  (Read 5412 times)

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Offline Jabberwock

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7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« on: Sat, 06 May 2017, 16:05:45 »
Hello!

I was very disappointed by GPD Pocket keyboard layout and decided to design my own physical layout for 7" handheld devices.
It must be good for text, including cyrillic (32 characters), code and SSH and have a minimum of compromises.

And what I have done:
167873-0
Picture size was choosen for 1:1 scale on 24" 1920x1080.

Notes:
- Enter should be big-ass, or we well have an empty space in the QWERTY row, and the rows will shift.
- Ins button, which is not used often, takes a very good place. Should I change it for something?

Known compromises:
1. CapsLock can be activated by (Fn-Shift), so I installed Tab instead. I think it is better than give a lot of space to such rare-needed button.
2. Tilde is going to the end of the row, near Backspace. Because numbers are more important.
   
I am requesting for comments, polished variant will be sent to GPD (and they probably won't answer, but I don't care).
« Last Edit: Sat, 06 May 2017, 16:17:33 by Jabberwock »

Offline Coreda

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 06 May 2017, 16:24:22 »
After watching Linus' impressions video of this the WASD positioning seems pretty awkward of the original. And given the GPD gained its reputation with gaming (and just because it's a more standard placement) it seems to me that aligning the top alpha row where it is in regular boards would be a good step. Not sure how much wriggle-room there is there though.

Looks like you've also added more keys to each row, wouldn't that make the keys considerably more cramped?

Offline _haru

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 00:01:37 »
That looks very cool. I like the big enter key :)
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 04:11:20 »
...aligning the top alpha row where it is in regular boards would be a good step.
It will look worse:
167903-0

Looks like you've also added more keys to each row, wouldn't that make the keys considerably more cramped?
Yes, but I have no another choice - most european languages have more characters than English. Anyway they are cramped not too much.

That looks very cool. I like the big enter key :)
Thanks!

« Last Edit: Sun, 07 May 2017, 04:38:25 by Jabberwock »

Offline Vladimir

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 08:35:36 »
I think you're not been very realistic.
The picture you've show with a real product have 11 keys width (judging by the qwerty row).
Considering the top 2 rows beeing 0.75u and the extra row for the arrows to be 0.5u, it means the KB have 6u height. Like this:

0.75
0.75
1
1
1
1
0.5

So, 11:6 overall.
Your layout looks like 13:6.5. I'll not talk about height, but it's too wide.
Unless you're using smaller square keys, but if that's the case, have in mind that you're solving a problem creating another one.

To me, the best solution for tiny spaces is to use Matrix Grid (or ortholinear, whatever...).
I don't know how to adapt cyrillic, but I've used the standard KB to make it a try.
The yellow keys are empty. Blue keys are Fn.

 
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 07 May 2017, 08:49:31 »
Ops, I've just realised now that the spacebar is not centered.
Let me fix it:
 
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 08 May 2017, 21:16:13 »
Vladimir, of course my keys are smaller. But it is not a problem.
I have made a working scale model (180mm width, like GPD pocket) of the second variant on my tablet and it was good enough to type with six fingers. Full-scale key is here for comparison.

168044-0

Matrix grid looks definitely cool, but seems to be too exotic for a really comfort typing.
To adopt cyrillic, you should just make your rows two keys longer each.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 May 2017, 23:19:54 by Jabberwock »

Offline Jabberwock

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 12 May 2017, 06:18:55 »
Looks like nobody is interested in such small keyboard. Or I made it PERFECT!

Offline Vladimir

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 16 May 2017, 03:49:35 »
It's hard to help with what you want, because you're basically making an anti-ergonomic KB.
To begin with, the space between key centers should be 19mm. This is according to this study:

Handbook of Human-Computer Interaction
Martin Helander (editor)
Chapter 54, Keys and Keyboards
Part 4.3, Physical Features - Key Size and Shape
Conclusion:


If I take the original KB to compare, we have a 180mm wide overall surface to 11 keys.
Let's suppose this give us 16mm square keys. It's a little worse than standard, ofc, but not that much.
Now let's make your design with 12.5 keys wide. That's around 14mm square keys. Which is basically a 0.75u x 0.75u.
From my point of view, this GPD pocket is already using the limit of the acceptable key size. (or maybe already beyond that)
For what you want, the best would be simply using a bigger tablet (and therefore, a bigger KB).
With a 8" tablet, there would probably be enough space for 12.5 keys wide with 16mm. This is what you want.
With a 9" you could even have 18mm keys, so close to standard that it would be hard to notice the difference.
But this last one is probably already too diferent from the reference.

It's kind of funny 'cause you begin saying "minimum of compromises". I mean, I get what you intended by it (not removing keys) but there will be compromises one way or another. You just choose to let it be the key size instead. We can't have it all.

Don't get offended, but your pratical example honestly doesn't mean much. We can type with the horrible and tiny smartphone KBs (and btw, some of them use the Matrix grid style), but that doesn't mean they are good.

Quote from: Jabberwock
Looks like nobody is interested in such small keyboard. Or I made it PERFECT!
One of the reasons is that you've established so many requirements that there's no much space for changing. So yeah... "perfect".
The other reason I've imagined is this:
Quote from: Jabberwock
polished variant will be sent to GPD (and they probably won't answer, but I don't care).
I mean, honestly, what EXACTLY are you intending to do? Because this could (sadly) end being just another random idea that results with nothing. I'm not even saying this is a bad idea, but I've seen many good ideas that don't "leave the paper". There are any realistc plans of making this happens? If you make the KB yourself to work with any 7"(or 8"  ;) ) tablet it would be awesome, but (like you've said) GPD probably won't do anything.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 May 2017, 10:03:43 by Vladimir »
 
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Offline davkol

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 16 May 2017, 04:47:31 »
From what I've seen (experience and a couple of studies), vertical spacing can be reduced without impact on accuracy, but horizontal spacing is harder—of course, it depends, if the user has sausage fingers in reality.

18mm spacing of Cherry G84 keyboards is fine. A tad bit smaller is still okay. I've seen figures as low as 17×14 mm.

That said, I'd rather see a slide-out keyboard somewhat similar to IBM's butterfly.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 16 May 2017, 06:29:19 »
From what I've seen (experience and a couple of studies), vertical spacing can be reduced without impact on accuracy, but horizontal spacing is harder—of course, it depends, if the user has sausage fingers in reality.

I think you're right, but I don't have a study to prove it or at least indicate that this is true.
If you can post the study about vertical size it would be nice.  :)
Despite that, I've focused on the bigger issue here, which is width.

18mm spacing of Cherry G84 keyboards is fine. A tad bit smaller is still okay. I've seen figures as low as 17×14 mm.

From the reference I've show, 18mm would be enough, even not being standard. Also, considering the previous statement correct (about vertical size), we could use 0.75u height keys, which is slightly bigger than 14mm. So your example (17 x 14 mm) would be realistic.
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 May 2017, 10:05:50 by Vladimir »
 
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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: 7" handheld subnotebook keyboard: how it should be done.
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 16 May 2017, 09:20:55 »
Hello!

I was very disappointed by GPD Pocket keyboard layout and decided to design my own physical layout for 7" handheld devices.
It must be good for text, including cyrillic (32 characters), code and SSH and have a minimum of compromises.

And what I have done:
(Attachment Link)
Picture size was choosen for 1:1 scale on 24" 1920x1080.

Notes:
- Enter should be big-ass, or we well have an empty space in the QWERTY row, and the rows will shift.
- Ins button, which is not used often, takes a very good place. Should I change it for something?

Known compromises:
1. CapsLock can be activated by (Fn-Shift), so I installed Tab instead. I think it is better than give a lot of space to such rare-needed button.
2. Tilde is going to the end of the row, near Backspace. Because numbers are more important.
   
I am requesting for comments, polished variant will be sent to GPD (and they probably won't answer, but I don't care).

My shoulders are starting to hurt just from looking at this. I get the appeal; ouchie.