[IC] SA SAIL (GB Live!)

[Fredington]

Introducing SA SAIL

Based on the SAIL (Stanford AI Lab) keyboard created by Les Earnest, inventor of the Finger protocol. SAIL itself was started by John McCarthy, inventor of the LISP programming language. The SAIL keyboard inspired the Knight keyboard, which in turn inspired the LISP Machine CADR and Space Cadet keyboards. The keyboard features beautiful teal keycaps and a mix of APL and Greek top legends, as opposed to the Space Cadet keyboard where the Greek legends are on the front of the keys. The SAIL keyboard also introduced the META and TOP keys.



A couple of interesting quirks about the keyboard should be noted:

--The digit 0 key is to the left of the 1 key.
--The punctuation legends placement is quite different from modern keyboards (more on that later).


Colors




GB will run from March 1-27 with the following vendors:

NA: NovelKeys
Canada: DeskHero
EU: MyKeyboard
Asia: iLumkb
Oceania: DailyClack


Pricing




Kits


















Deskpads

Green Hi-Contrast







Black Monochrome








Renders

RAMA U80-A





Iron165







KBD19X







Atlas









FAQs

Are these 7bit’s or hhkbp2’s legends?   No, I drew these myself. See below comparison:

More

NE NorDe (or Colevrak) avail?   Due to the “wrong” punctuation legend placement in relation to modern keyboards and the fact that a new mold would need to be created for each key if I wanted it to have the “correct” top legend according to the inspiration, I have decided not to provide a NorDe kit. More importantly, I don’t even know what that would look like, since it would definitely require some rearranging of the punctuation legends in a way that would go against how they are laid out in the alphas. Same thing goes for Colevrak. Instead, I’ve provided a basic ISO kit with two options to cover the extra key: *⊗ or \∞. The ∑s in the Alphas kit should also help in this regard. Since even the base ANSI layout has the “wrong” punctuation legend placement, I think it is not as egregious in this case that ISO layouts have the wrong legends as well.


To-Do

Feedback - Complete
Vendors - Complete
New renders - Complete
Pricing - Complete
Launch GB - March 1-27


Acknowledgements

Hhkbp2/Jiezhou for all the detailed advice about custom fonts and running a GB through SP
Abec13 for the beautiful renders and advice on formatting the IC and the 40s kit
depletedvespene for the advice about the ISO kit and the idea for the novelty keys


Changelog

2/28/20
--Changed NUM LOCK to simply NUM

2/21/20
--Split the Ortho/40s kit into Ortho and 40x Extension (replacing Split B-ars)
--Added a couple blanks to the ISO kit
--Moved the ∑s from the Alphas to the Maths kit
--Kits are LOCKED
--Added new render with numpad (KBD19X)
--Added pricing and exact GB dates

2/7/20
--Deskpad renders added

2/4/20
--After R1 samples, all legends have been reworked to be significantly bolder
--A new Pantone has been chosen, 7717 C, due to possible discontinuation of previous standard
--Moved the Σ keys back into the Alphas where they originally were
--Following recent trends in numpad kit design, R1 keys for standalone numpads have been removed from the Numpad kit
--1800 layout support has been moved from the Modifiers into the Numpad kit
--Two deskpads will be offered, Green Hi-Contrast and Black Monochrome
--Incorporated the new novelties into the updated renders
--All kits and renders have been updated with above changes
--Deskpad renders and pricing to follow in the next couple weeks!

1/6/20
--Added updated/new renders that reflect the new Pantone; a number of legends have been refined to be more reflective of the inspiration
--Added new Maths and Ergo Blanks kits (w/ Boardwalk support); replaced µ with ∇ in the Maths kit as I felt it fit better with the theme
--Moved the ∑s in the Alphas and Numpad into the new Maths kit

12/10/19
--Moved 1800 support from the Numpad to the Modifiers, as pricing for the Numpad was coming in a little high compared to its MOQ
--Added options for R1 and R2 Backspace (BS) and Delete (CLEAR) (and vice versa) to the ortho kit

11/25/19
--Changed 1.75u BS key in 40s kit to BACKSPACE
--Removed \∞ from Ortho kit after mocking up a Preonic for a new render, as I believe exceedingly few people will use this key
--Selected a new Pantone for better color matching to plastics, PQ-7716C

11/18/19
--Replaced LOCK with NUM LOCK in the Numpad kit
--Updated various legends to be more faithful to the inspiration

11/12/19
--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

11/8/19
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster


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[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104881.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/ijqMmwb.jpg[/img][/url]

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Unreal.

[rowie]

Love vintage inspired sets. Looks good so far. Hope this becomes a reality. Good luck

[KeepCalm27]

The color looks great. I hope SP could handle it correctly!

[pixelpusher]

Love this color

[RacerK1]

I'm in if we can get ortho support!

[Nigolski]

i'm sold

[matrixzj]

I like this color theme and simple kits design. Definitely in it. 

[qq]

This looks really interesting. 

[depletedvespene]

Show Image

Introducing SA SAIL

Interesting concept. I have a couple quick comments.

Show Image

Kudos on the presence of numpad equals.

Given the importance math is given to this keyset, I would add a numpad comma (but that's me).

Show Image

The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)

[tex_live_utility]

Might be helpful to do some kind of comparison with existing "Cadet" SA sets.

[hottrout]

LOVE, hope this becomes real.  Good luck.

[jiezhou]

[vosechu]

Same. I’m in if there’s a simple ortho set. Seems like ortho users would be a large chunk of your target demographic.

[enrique.aliaga]

Amazing set! I passed on SA Space Cadet (Symbiosis) because it lacked the Greek front-legends, so it wasn't an exact reproduction of the original. But this is! Love it! Hope this gets to GB!

Do you have any estimate of the start of GB?

[mimalik]

For the love all things holy....fast track this NOW!!!!

[Fredington]

I'm in if we can get ortho support!

Please fill out the form! It really helps!

Show Image

Introducing SA SAIL

Interesting concept. I have a couple quick comments.

Show Image

Kudos on the presence of numpad equals.

Given the importance math is given to this keyset, I would add a numpad comma (but that's me).

Show Image

The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)

For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and 2U Backspace (BS) in the number row (you can see this in the Iron165 render), there is an extra key that needs a home and *⊗ is the odd man out. For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and split Backspace, every R1 key has a home, so an additional key is needed for the extra R3 alpha. That's why I have provided both *⊗ and VT.

I would consider something like a ∑ add-on kit a la the ñ kit from GMK Jamon, although probably not as many keys to keep the price down.

Same. I’m in if there’s a simple ortho set. Seems like ortho users would be a large chunk of your target demographic.

Please fill out the form! It really helps!

Might be helpful to do some kind of comparison with existing "Cadet" SA sets.

Added under FAQs.

Show Image

  Thanks for all your help!

[depletedvespene]

…………

Show Image

The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)

For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and 2U Backspace (BS) in the number row (you can see this in the Iron165 render), there is an extra key that needs a home and *⊗ is the odd man out. For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and split Backspace, every R1 key has a home, so an additional key is needed for the extra R3 alpha. That's why I have provided both *⊗ and VT.

I understand your reasoning for wanting to retain the *⊗ keycap in a keyboard that's missing one key, but that still presents the problem of losing the \∞ keycap that is supposed to go right in that position in an ISO keyboard (of any form factor).

I would suggest keeping the *⊗ and \∞ keycaps as are in the base kit (those are perfectly fine), and have the R3 alpha in the ISO kit be \∞ (so all regular ISO keyboards of all form factors will be satisfied), with an R4 *⊗ keycap to cover the issue you mention. This, of course, beside the possibility of adding a different R4 key with one or two new symbols not present in the original keyboard, to avoid any repetition in the extra ISO key (be it either *⊗ or \∞).

(I like the VT keycap, too, BTW, but given that the base kit already has CALL, BREAK, LINE, FORM and TOP, I wonder if it wouldn't be better placed in the base kit as well)

I would consider a ∑ add-on kit a la the ñ kit from GMK Jamon, although probably not as many keys to keep the price down.

The eñe survival kit meme worked nicely on GMK Jamón (as a matter of fact, I was gonna pass on it uñtil my eyes were iñuñdated with the sight of so mañy eñes together, and that woñ me over to the set), but I'm not sure if pulling a similar feat on THIS set would work. PERHAPS, at most, for the F row, with legends like ∑(i=1)(1), ∑(i=1)(2), (etc), but even then I'm not sure if it would look good.

[Fredington]

…………

Show Image

The "Atlantis ISO" moniker makes no sense here, for the obvious reasons, BUT... the R3 alpha shoud be \∞, not *⊗. Otherwise, on a regular ANSISO or ISO keyboard, there would be two copies of *⊗ (R1 and R3) (remember we're talking about the "movable" key here, that gets to be R2 1.5U, R3 1.0U or R1 1.0U).

That the R4 alpha would remain as \∞ is a valid option, but it occurs to me this can be further improved upon: given that new molds will have to be made anyway AND that the original keyboard did NOT have the extra ISO key, why not make it have a couple further math symbols that were not originally present? There's plenty of options: ∫ (given that ∂ is there already), ≢ (given that ≡ is there already),  ∑, ∇, ∈ and ∉, µ, ∴, etcetera.

(a single large integral sign would look fantastic, IMHO)

For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and 2U Backspace (BS) in the number row (you can see this in the Iron165 render), there is an extra key that needs a home and *⊗ is the odd man out. For layouts without the F-row and where the user has the Escape key and split Backspace, every R1 key has a home, so an additional key is needed for the extra R3 alpha. That's why I have provided both *⊗ and VT.

I understand your reasoning for wanting to retain the *⊗ keycap in a keyboard that's missing one key, but that still presents the problem of losing the \∞ keycap that is supposed to go right in that position in an ISO keyboard (of any form factor).

I would suggest keeping the *⊗ and \∞ keycaps as are in the base kit (those are perfectly fine), and have the R3 alpha in the ISO kit be \∞ (so all regular ISO keyboards of all form factors will be satisfied), with an R4 *⊗ keycap to cover the issue you mention. This, of course, beside the possibility of adding a different R4 key with one or two new symbols not present in the original keyboard, to avoid any repetition in the extra ISO key (be it either *⊗ or \∞).

(I like the VT keycap, too, BTW, but given that the base kit already has CALL, BREAK, LINE, FORM and TOP, I wonder if it wouldn't be better placed in the base kit as well)

I would consider a ∑ add-on kit a la the ñ kit from GMK Jamon, although probably not as many keys to keep the price down.

The eñe survival kit meme worked nicely on GMK Jamón (as a matter of fact, I was gonna pass on it uñtil my eyes were iñuñdated with the sight of so mañy eñes together, and that woñ me over to the set), but I'm not sure if pulling a similar feat on THIS set would work. PERHAPS, at most, for the F row, with legends like ∑(i=1)(1), ∑(i=1)(2), (etc), but even then I'm not sure if it would look good.

Perhaps the λ kit from SA Carbon would be a better comparison?

Regarding the ISO kit, I'll have to give it some more thought it seems. Thanks for the input.

[tex_live_utility]

Depending on how HSA or ABS MT3 turn out, would you ever consider running this in either of those profiles?. A lot of people (like me) are less enthusiastic about SA than in the past, on account of its height and relatively small top surface area.

[depletedvespene]

…
Perhaps the λ kit from SA Carbon would be a better comparison?

I suppose so, but I still can't see how a kit like either would fit with the spirit of the original SAIL keyboard (but I'm not the IC runner here, so that's not my call to make).

Regarding the ISO kit, I'll have to give it some more thought it seems. Thanks for the input.

You're welcome.

[Fredington]

Depending on how HSA or ABS MT3 turn out, would you ever consider running this in either of those profiles?. A lot of people (like me) are less enthusiastic about SA than in the past, on account of its height and relatively small top surface area.

Probably not. Even though I like MT3 a lot, I feel like SA most closely resembles the inspiration. Although, I concede that uniform R3 would probably be the closest, I just don't like uniform profiles.

EDIT: Also, SP has a proven track record of producing these types of legends, while doubleshot MT3 and HSA are still unknown quantities.

[Ensaum]

Love retro inspired sets. I'm interested.

[nickaster1]

This would fit the antique TX boards very well

[Fredington]

Major kit update in the OP. Also added the below changelog:

CHANGE LOG:
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster

New renders are incoming!

Reminder to please fill out the form!

[mimalik]

How about a R1 number row kit with ansi special characters? For those(developers/system admins, etc etc) who need the functionality of the special characters.

[Fredington]

How about a R1 number row kit with ansi special characters? For those(developers/system admins, etc etc) who need the functionality of the special characters.

No, because that would require additional molds since I'm intentionally making the legends larger than the standard SP size for dual legend caps. You can see the difference in the comparison photo between 7bit's Round 6, SA Symbiosis R2, and SA SAIL that I posted in the OP.

[ihalatch]

Yes, please make it happen.

[jimboytacos]

I'm all in.

[gbchk]

Thanks for taking my suggestion to incorporate the custom legends into the TKL nav cluster.

Is the intent to make legends equal in size to 7bit's? I assume yes based on the render but not sure. Just received my Symbiosis R2 order and comparing them to 7bit's caps, the slightly larger legends really do make a big difference.

[Fredington]

Thanks for taking my suggestion to incorporate the custom legends into the TKL nav cluster.

Is the intent to make legends equal in size to 7bit's? I assume yes based on the render but not sure. Just received my Symbiosis R2 order and comparing them to 7bit's caps, the slightly larger legends really do make a big difference.

The intent was simply to mimic the inspiration. While Symbiosis legends are on the small side, I think I understand why he made them that way. By matching the size to the number row, it avoided having to make new molds for that row.

[Enemy]

Thanks for listening to the feedback and adding the 40s and split space kits

[MMcM]

I used those keyboards from time to time forty-odd years ago at the D. C. Power Lab.

I know when I saw the photo that is now the top one on Xah Lee's site, my immediate reaction was, hang on, wasn't it greener than that? And the later photos there seem to bear that out. Your choice seems like a compromise.

Maybe somebody at LCM+L knows the true original color; they have been trying to resurrect some of WAITS, I think. Maybe somebody could go over to the exhibit and photograph it with color bars next to it?

Or you could just say it's inspired-by and get on with it, which would still be great!

Plus it's always possible that the plastic has discolored over the years. However, I haven't noticed that with a Knight keyboard of similar age.

[Fredington]

I used those keyboards from time to time forty-odd years ago at the D. C. Power Lab.

I know when I saw the photo that is now the top one on Xah Lee's site, my immediate reaction was, hang on, wasn't it greener than that? And the later photos there seem to bear that out. Your choice seems like a compromise.

Maybe somebody at LCM+L knows the true original color; they have been trying to resurrect some of WAITS, I think. Maybe somebody could go over to the exhibit and photograph it with color bars next to it?

Or you could just say it's inspired-by and get on with it, which would still be great!

Plus it's always possible that the plastic has discolored over the years. However, I haven't noticed that with a Knight keyboard of similar age.

I was at LCM+L last summer and didn't see one of these there. Are you sure they have one? I trust the white balance of the photo above as it was taken recently at Stanford, and like I said, I used many photos as reference to arrive at the color I chose.

If someone would be kind enough to physically go to the Stanford exhibit and try and match the color, that would be swell but I'm also pretty happy with the color I chose and am not loosing sleep over the possibility that it may not be exact.

[Argan12345]

Would consider a uniform R3 profile, it would fit the board it's based on. Would make a big different for me, I think it would also help reduce costs and layout compatibility for buyers.

[gbchk]

I would be super bummed if this wasn't sculpted. If anything, maybe add a uniform option like Symbiosis did.

[Fredington]

Would consider a uniform R3 profile, it would fit the board it's based on. Would make a big different for me, I think it would also help reduce costs and layout compatibility for buyers.

I would be super bummed if this wasn't sculpted. If anything, maybe add a uniform option like Symbiosis did.

I'm not opposed to a R3 kit like Symbiosis, but I'm not sure this set can support that in terms of balancing the level of interest with the cost of the set as a whole. I can put it do a vote though.

[Argan12345]

I agree with putting it up to a vote. I think there is a lack of interesting uniform R3 SAs on the market (Ice cap is kinda boring and nuclear is too gaudy), and if nothing else, it's clear that the SAIL was a uniform profile keeb.

Also keep in mind that uniform makes it ALOT more flexible for various layouts (40%, ortho, ergo) at a lower cost for everyone.

[Fredington]

I've created a poll to gauge interest in potentially 1) converting the entire kit to uniform R3 or 2) adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit). Before casting your vote, please review the pros and cons of each laid out below:

1) Converting the entire kit to uniform R3

Pros:

• Less total keys for same amount of compatibility (or more!)
• Lower price per-kit at GB stage

Cons:

• Not sculpted

2. Adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit):

Pros:

• Gives some buyers the option of a single kit that can cover all their needs
• Can easily add Colevrak support

Cons:

• Higher per-kit price at GB stage

Poll closed.

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

would SAIL "CADR" run alongside the sculpted kits as currently proposed in the first post?

If yes, consider making a third option in the poll: "run sculpted kits", no R3 which dilutes MOQ

also consider the the "I'll buy anyways" vote, which is sorta me. Id prefer sculpted, but if it's an R3 uniform, eh, I'd buy it too.

[Fredington]

would SAIL "CADR" run alongside the sculpted kits as currently proposed in the first post?

If yes, consider making a third option in the poll: "run sculpted kits", no R3 which dilutes MOQ

also consider the the "I'll buy anyways" vote, which is sorta me. Id prefer sculpted, but if it's an R3 uniform, eh, I'd buy it too.

Added!

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Thank you! I love the theme and color, the profile is sorta secondary to me as long as there's split keys.

Hope you get good data.

[jiezhou]

2. Adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit):

Pros:

• Gives some buyers the option of a single kit that can cover all their needs
• Can easily add Colevrak support

Cons:

• Higher per-kit price at GB stage due to additional R3 molds needed

Please vote here. Poll will open for one week.

Precisely speaking, it is the word "tooling" that we should say for creating new legend rather than "mold".

Only new legends require new toolings. Once the legends toolings are done, SP could make keys in whatever profile you like as long as they are of the same dimensions - in this case, all alphas key are just 1u, 1.5 keys. So, you don't have to pay extra cost on toolings if you add a flat kit using the same legends.

But in terms of running a practical GB, my advise is that you should be very sure there is enough interest before adding any thing in real GB. People always ask for new thing/kit in a GB. The trend is that kit number in an IC is usually growing. It's too easy to add too many things/kits but without a solid number on interest some kits fail in the GB phase. We have seen examples before. The similar example, CADR of Symbiosis R2 had its hard time on sale during the GB phase.

[Fredington]

2. Adding a condensed R3 monokit (i.e. SA Symbiosis R2's CADR kit):

Pros:

• Gives some buyers the option of a single kit that can cover all their needs
• Can easily add Colevrak support

Cons:

• Higher per-kit price at GB stage due to additional R3 molds needed

Poll closed.

Precisely speaking, it is the word "tooling" that we should say for creating new legend rather than "mold".

Only new legends require new toolings. Once the legends toolings are done, SP could make keys in whatever profile you like as long as they are of the same dimensions - in this case, all alphas key are just 1u, 1.5 keys. So, you don't have to pay extra cost on toolings if you add a flat kit using the same legends.

But in terms of running a practical GB, my advise is that you should be very sure there is enough interest before adding any thing in real GB. People always ask for new thing/kit in a GB. The trend is that kit number in an IC is usually growing. It's too easy to add too many things/kits but without a solid number on interest some kits fail in the GB phase. We have seen examples before. The similar example, CADR of Symbiosis R2 had its hard time on sale during the GB phase.

Good to know about the molds vs. tooling.

Yes, I remember CADR had a hard time hitting MOQ and the current poll results support the lack of interest in the kit. If anything, converting the entire set to R3 would be the more feasible thing to do, but "no changes" is currently winning by a fair amount.

Thanks for weighing in.

[donutcat]

Would like to point out you've got two R1 "Call" keys in the mods and you're missing R1 keys for "VT" and "Line" that would normally have their representative keys there for *correct* 1800-style layout support. Not an issue if there's a uniform kit that happens as long as that kit has all the compatibility of your current kits or what CADR had.

Other'n that I like the look, monotone and green is my jam.

[Fredington]

Would like to point out you've got two R1 "Call" keys in the mods and you're missing R1 keys for "VT" and "Line" that would normally have their representative keys there for *correct* 1800-style layout support. Not an issue if there's a uniform kit that happens as long as that kit has all the compatibility of your current kits or what CADR had.

Other'n that I like the look, monotone and green is my jam.

Good catch. Should be no problems if I add those to the Numpad kit, no?

[Fredington]

First round pricing has been received from SP and it's not exactly where I wanted it to be. I've made the decision to scale back the Ortho/40s kit slightly in order to get better costing across the board. My sincere apologies for those that this change affects, but I believe the Ortho/40s kit still offers a good range of compatibility in key sizes and profiles if not legends.

See below for full CHANGELOG:

--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

In other news, "Keep the kits as they are (no changes)" is currently winning over "Convert entire set to uniform R3" by quite a bit. Poll will remain open until Sunday, but if this trend continues, the good news is that there won't be a R3 monokit to add further cost to the set.

Render updates are being worked on.

Remember to fill out the interest check form! Thank you all for the great response so far!

[pcire]

Love the continuous updates!
Looking forward to this set!

[jimboytacos]

This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

[Fredington]

This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

Well, I only got one request for an ergo kit in the interest check form.

I'm also not inclined to offer one for the following reasons:

• A modern assembly kit would not match well with these vintage-style legends.
• Blanks would look unbalanced due to the dual-legend nature of the alphas.
• Custom legends would add additional cost to the set and I'd like to keep it pretty tight.

At the end of the day, an ergo kit would depend on interest level and right now, it's lacking.

I will say though, that if I were to add an ergo kit, I would use forms and functions that are unique to Stanford LISP 1.6, the version of LISP used at SAIL. So if that piques your interest, all you ergo users better show up in the form!

[tex_live_utility]

Putting in my vote for 1-2-3-3-3-4 sculpt for the whole kit.

[mimalik]

My pref is with profile as is: 112343

[Fredington]

Putting in my vote for 1-2-3-3-3-4 sculpt for the whole kit.

My pref is with profile as is: 112343

Based on how the poll is going, sculpt will likely remain 1-1-2-3-4-3.

[BalticSubmarine]

Love the look of the set will be supporting this for sure. I think that 1-2-3-3-3-3 would be best but that's just my two cents.

[Fredington]

Just wanted to give you guys a small update and show you how I've been refining some of the legends to be more like the inspiration. Please see comparisons below:



I bet you guys didn't even notice these were off but wanted to let you know that I'm taking the legends very seriously so that they'll be as | A E S T H E T I C | as possible.

DISCLAIMER: These changes may or may not make it into the renders but rest assured they will be in the final product.

[donutcat]

--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad

Nifty, might be the first SP set for me to consider in some time as long as the pricing is there.

[BalticSubmarine]

Just wanted to give you guys a small update and show you how I've been refining some of the legends to be more like the inspiration. Please see comparisons below:

Show Image

I bet you guys didn't even notice these were off but wanted to let you know that I'm taking the legends very seriously so that they'll be as | A E S T H E T I C | as possible.

DISCLAIMER: These changes may or may not make it into the renders but rest assured they will be in the final product.

Wow nice attention to detail! Looking forward to this more and more!

[Fredington]

Poll has been closed, as the option to keep the kits the same (no changes) has won by a landslide. You can view the results below:



Also, I made a small change to the Numpad, replacing LOCK with NUM LOCK. Other than that, I consider the kits to be pretty final (barring any major errors) and will be submitting them to SP soon for updated pricing. If there's anything you're dying to have added, please let me know in the form.

[mimalik]

Gr8, apologize if this has been answered already, but what is GB drop date??

[Fredington]

Gr8, apologize if this has been answered already, but what is GB drop date??

Targeting some time in Q1 2020.

[StormyMonday]

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

[Fate]

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

[tex_live_utility]

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

[Fredington]

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

Would have to agree for anyone reading this go forward that these types of comments are not helpful. If you want specific keys added, you need to specify. I am not an ortho user and am unsure what robust ortho means.

Regardless in this case, I plan on keeping the ortho/40s kit pretty tight for costing reasons.

[StormyMonday]

First round pricing has been received from SP and it's not exactly where I wanted it to be. I've made the decision to scale back the Ortho/40s kit slightly in order to get better costing across the board. My sincere apologies for those that this change affects, but I believe the Ortho/40s kit still offers a good range of compatibility in key sizes and profiles if not legends.

See below for full CHANGELOG:

--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

In other news, "Keep the kits as they are (no changes)" is currently winning over "Convert entire set to uniform R3" by quite a bit. Poll will remain open until Sunday, but if this trend continues, the good news is that there won't be a R3 monokit to add further cost to the set.

Render updates are being worked on.

Remember to fill out the interest check form! Thank you all for the great response so far!

Major kit update in the OP. Also added the below changelog:

CHANGE LOG:
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster

New renders are incoming!

Reminder to please fill out the form!

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

Would have to agree for anyone reading this go forward that these types of comments are not helpful. If you want specific keys added, you need to specify. I am not an ortho user and am unsure what robust ortho means.

Regardless in this case, I plan on keeping the ortho/40s kit pretty tight for costing reasons.

Right off of the bat, you mention that ortho support is is being scaled back. Then, you brag on your "robust" (your words) ortho support. Then you mention that you are scaling back the ortho kit (again!) for cost reasons. Next, you say that ortho support will be kept pretty tight.

IMHO, it is reasonable to be concerned, in light of your own comments, that ortho support may be cut back even more, if folks do not raise their hands and make it known that ortho support is precisely why they are interested in this kit; hence my post. I'm puzzled as to why you wouldn't find it helpful/valuable to know that a prospective participant's interest is based solely in whether the kit continues to maintain a decent level of ortho support. Frankly, I find your reaction to be both puzzling and troubling. All I'm saying is that if ortho support continues to be pared back, I'm no longer interested. After all, I thought that was why we are here ... for an interest check.

[Fredington]

First round pricing has been received from SP and it's not exactly where I wanted it to be. I've made the decision to scale back the Ortho/40s kit slightly in order to get better costing across the board. My sincere apologies for those that this change affects, but I believe the Ortho/40s kit still offers a good range of compatibility in key sizes and profiles if not legends.

See below for full CHANGELOG:

--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

In other news, "Keep the kits as they are (no changes)" is currently winning over "Convert entire set to uniform R3" by quite a bit. Poll will remain open until Sunday, but if this trend continues, the good news is that there won't be a R3 monokit to add further cost to the set.

Render updates are being worked on.

Remember to fill out the interest check form! Thank you all for the great response so far!

Major kit update in the OP. Also added the below changelog:

CHANGE LOG:
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster

New renders are incoming!

Reminder to please fill out the form!

I'm interested in robust ortho support. Following along to see how this turns out.

Also VERY interested in robust ortho support. I'm in if that happens!

What does robust ortho support even mean? Covering all the 10 million ways to put legends on the outer edges of the keyboard?

Would have to agree for anyone reading this go forward that these types of comments are not helpful. If you want specific keys added, you need to specify. I am not an ortho user and am unsure what robust ortho means.

Regardless in this case, I plan on keeping the ortho/40s kit pretty tight for costing reasons.

Right off of the bat, you mention that ortho support is is being scaled back. Then, you brag on your "robust" (your words) ortho support. Then you mention that you are scaling back the ortho kit (again!) for cost reasons. Next, you say that ortho support will be kept pretty tight.

IMHO, it is reasonable to be concerned, in light of your own comments, that ortho support may be cut back even more, if folks do not raise their hands and make it known that ortho support is precisely why they are interested in this kit; hence my post. I'm puzzled as to why you wouldn't find it helpful/valuable to know that a prospective participant's interest is based solely in whether the kit continues to maintain a decent level of ortho support. Frankly, I find your reaction to be both puzzling and troubling. All I'm saying is that if ortho support continues to be pared back, I'm no longer interested. After all, I thought that was why we are here ... for an interest check.

I scaled back the 40s kit once after first round pricing. Hence my desire to now keep things tight. And for the most part, the ortho keys weren't touched.

What keys do you think are missing exactly?

[StormyMonday]

I have no way of knowing precisely what may have already been cut, I have only the posted render and your statements to go by.

My anxiety does not derive from a missing key(s), but from my concern that additional cost cuts will be made, unless folks make it known that ortho support is important to them.

[Fredington]

I have no way of knowing precisely what may have already been cut, I have only the posted render and your statements to go by.

My anxiety does not derive from a missing key(s), but from my concern that additional cost cuts will be made, unless folks make it known that ortho support is important to them.

I don't plan on making additional cuts, as I'm pretty happy where updated pricing has landed, which I hope to be able to share soon along with vendors and a date.

[StormyMonday]

Thanks very much for the clarification.

This is a beautiful set; I look forward to seeing the final details.

[angelax]

This color is beautiful! Looking forward to the GB launch!

[AJM]

I would be interested in this set, too.
Although I would usually consider sets only, if they have a NorDe kit, I can understand, why wouldn't want to bother with it in this special case.
All I would ask is, that the BACKSPACE in the Modifiers kit would get the legend "BS" as it can be found on the original keyboard.

[Fredington]

I would be interested in this set, too.
Although I would usually consider sets only, if they have a NorDe kit, I can understand, why wouldn't want to bother with it in this special case.
All I would ask is, that the BACKSPACE in the Modifiers kit would get the legend "BS" as it can be found on the original keyboard.

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

[equalunique]

Glad to see an otho set as part of this. Since it's a kit with (wonderfully) weird alphas, a mods kit for weird boards seems like the natural and right choice.

[AJM]

... The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I understand, but the whole point of this set is "being quirky". So I would still prefer "BS".

[gbchk]

... The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I understand, but the whole point of this set is "being quirky". So I would still prefer "BS".

When did OP ever say that the whole point of this set is "being quirky"?

[nickaster1]

Hey just wonder if we’ll be able to see color samples before the GB start?

[Fredington]

Hey just wonder if we’ll be able to see color samples before the GB start?

Working on it. I'll make an update on this tomorrow.

[AaronR]

would it be possible to get a render of the set on a white/silver keyboard?

[Fredington]

would it be possible to get a render of the set on a white/silver keyboard?

New renders are being worked on.

[d00deitsnik]

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I kinda like how the 2u Backspace looks with BS and the extra space. Would you consider adding it as an extra mod? I know it'll drive the price up, but it might be something to think about.

[Fredington]

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I kinda like how the 2u Backspace looks with BS and the extra space. Would you consider adding it as an extra mod? I know it'll drive the price up, but it might be something to think about.

Probably not. The Modifiers kit is already looking to be the most expensive kit by quite a bit and I am not looking to add keys to it. I don't have a huge preference one way or the other, but I'm also not looking to run another poll about it since I already ran one for the sculpt. Unless a ton of people come out of the woodwork and say they prefer BS, then it'll probably stay as it is. In fact, I'll probably change the 1.75u BS in the 40s kit to Backspace, as well.

Since the BS key in the inspiration is 1.5u, we have to take some creative liberties for keys larger than that, and I've taken the decision that Backspace looks better.

Another thing to keep in mind is that BS is a new mold and each BS key of differing size adds another mold cost to the total. By using Backspace for 2u and 1.75u, we can save some costs to the consumer.

[d00deitsnik]

Thank you for your interest. The 2u Backspace was indeed BS in my original design but I felt it looked too unbalanced on such a large key. I have kept it on the smaller keys like 1.5u and 1u.

I kinda like how the 2u Backspace looks with BS and the extra space. Would you consider adding it as an extra mod? I know it'll drive the price up, but it might be something to think about.

Probably not. The Modifiers kit is already looking to be the most expensive kit by quite a bit and I am not looking to add keys to it. I don't have a huge preference one way or the other, but I'm also not looking to run another poll about it since I already ran one for the sculpt. Unless a ton of people come out of the woodwork and say they prefer BS, then it'll probably stay as it is. In fact, I'll probably change the 1.75u BS in the 40s kit to Backspace, as well.

Since the BS key in the inspiration is 1.5u, we have to take some creative liberties for keys larger than that, and I've taken the decision that Backspace looks better.

Another thing to keep in mind is that BS is a new mold and each BS key of differing size adds another mold cost to the total. By using Backspace for 2u and 1.75u, we can save some costs to the consumer.

I didn't realize there was so much to consider when it came to these decisions. I support your decision and appreciate your response. I learned so much today. 

[GR1NN1NGC4T]

I'm really excited for that SA Set, so I'm keeping track 

I love the colours and the keysets... gonna get myself a set, for sure. 

[Fredington]

I have selected a new Pantone, PQ-7716C, for the purpose of better color matching with plastics (this is what the PQ- prefix indicates). The previous Pantone with the -TCX suffix was designed for textiles. Although you may say a Pantone is a Pantone, this should hopefully streamline the process even more and reduce the margin for errors.

This new Pantone is slightly more saturated than the previous one, and I think everyone will be very happy with it. Here is a photo:



I've also finalized the custom legends SVG file and sent them in for sampling! I'll update with an ETA once I have it.

Finally, a couple of kit revisions:

--Changed 1.75u BS key in 40s kit to BACKSPACE for aesthetic and costing reasons, as mentioned three posts up from this one
--Removed \∞ from Ortho kit after mocking up a Preonic for a new render, as I believe exceedingly few people will use this key

[horchata771]

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Introducing SA SAIL

Based on the SAIL (Stanford AI Lab) keyboard created by Les Earnest, inventor of the Finger protocol. SAIL itself was started by John McCarthy, inventor of the LISP programming language. The SAIL keyboard inspired the Knight keyboard, which in turn inspired the LISP Machine CADR and Space Cadet keyboards. The keyboard features beautiful teal keycaps and a mix of APL and Greek top legends, as opposed to the Space Cadet keyboard where the Greek legends are on the front of the keys. The SAIL keyboard also introduced the META and TOP keys.

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A couple of interesting quirks about the keyboard should be noted:

--The digit 0 key is to the left of the 1 key.
--The punctuation legends placement is quite different from modern keyboards (more on that later).


Colors

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Interest Check Google Form


Kits

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Renders

RAMA U80-A

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Iron165

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FAQs

Are these 7bit’s or hhkbp2’s legends?   No, I drew these myself. See below comparison:

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NE NorDe (or Colevrak) avail?   Due to the “wrong” punctuation legend placement in relation to modern keyboards and the fact that a new mold would need to be created for each key if I wanted it to have the “correct” top legend according to the inspiration, I have decided not to provide a NorDe kit. More importantly, I don’t even know what that would look like, since it would definitely require some rearranging of the punctuation legends in a way that would go against how they are laid out in the alphas. Same thing goes for Colevrak. Instead, I’ve provided a basic ISO kit with two options to cover the extra key: *⊗ or \∞. The ∑s in the Alphas kit should also help in this regard. Since even the base ANSI layout has the “wrong” punctuation legend placement, I think it is not as egregious in this case that ISO layouts have the wrong legends as well.

What's with the ∑ keys?   Originally conceived as a single key to help solve the problem of the extra key for ISO layouts, I decided to make one for every row to give the set a nice pizazz that fits well within the math theme of the set.


To-Do

Feedback - Pending
Quotes & samples from SP - Pending
Vendors - Pending
New renders - Pending
Launch GB


Acknowledgements

Hhkbp2/Jiezhou for all the detailed advice about custom fonts and running a GB through SP
Abec13 for the beautiful renders and advice on formatting the IC and the 40s kit
depletedvespene for the advice about the ISO kit and the idea for the ∑ keys


Changelog

11/25/19
--Changed 1.75u BS key in 40s kit to BACKSPACE
--Removed \∞ from Ortho kit after mocking up a Preonic for a new render, as I believe exceedingly few people will use this key
--Selected a new Pantone for better color matching to plastics, PQ-7716C
--SAMPLES REQUESTED!!!

11/18/19
--Replaced LOCK with NUM LOCK in the Numpad kit
--Updated various legends to be more faithful to the inspiration

11/12/19
--Removed extra R1 CALL key from Modifiers
--Added 1800 layout support to Numpad
--Scaled back Ortho/40s kit slightly for costing reasons

11/8/19
--Split the Base kit into Alphas and Modifiers
--Expanded the ISO kit slightly and incorporated the VT key into the Modifiers
--Added ortho/40s kit with fairly robust 40s support
--Added split spacebars kit
--Added ∑ novelties to the Alphas and Numpad kits
--Replaced 2U BS with BACKSPACE; smaller BS keys left unchanged
--Shuffled around the 65% right column keys and incorporated the legends into the TKL nav cluster


If you'd like to support this project, please use the banner below:

Code: [Select]

[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103307.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/4kfOlRl.jpg[/img][/url]

Dawwwgggg, I need me a set of them alphas! Noice work! Always wondered when I would see a tensor product symbol on a cap. Guess I've seen it all now. Consider me a future customer. Do you think there is any chance of a set of trig functions? I.e. sin, cos, etc. Say in a novelty set?

[Fredington]

Do you think there is any chance of a set of trig functions? I.e. sin, cos, etc. Say in a novelty set?

Probably not, as the set is already pushing prices that I'm not comfortable with. I consider the kits to be pretty final at this point and will probably remove the feedback portion of the IC form soon.

[GR1NN1NGC4T]

I love the choice for the more strikling teal colour. Can't wait for the GB! Will definetly get myself a set!

[bliss]

I'm not worthy

This must have been a ton of work, incredible! Form filled, interested in this for a 100% ANSI build. That means I hope there will be both an EU proxy and a friendly MOQ for the numpad, which should be doable with SP

Love the oldskool science air, would/will use this for research purposes (even AI) on my workstation, and not for gaming or something

EDIT: typo

[FRANCO]

I don't even know what keyboard I'm gonna put this on, but I love vintage-inspired sets! I'm in!

[AaronR]

Is there any idea yet when the GB might be?

[Fredington]

Is there any idea yet when the GB might be?

Targeting the latter part of Q1 2020.

UPDATE: So SP finally got back to me regarding samples. Apparently, they don’t mix custom colors until they receive the order, so unfortunately samples will have to wait until after the GB. I don’t see much of a point going through the process now, only to receive samples in a random color that is in no way representative of the final product. Sorry to get everyone’s hopes up, but now we can focus on finalizing the details of the GB.

So without further ado, I’m happy to announce the vendors for SA SAIL:

NA: NovelKeys
Canada: DeskHero
EU: MyKeyboard
Asia: iLumkb
Oceania: DailyClack

Kits have been finalized with a couple small changes:

--Moved 1800 support from the Numpad to the Modifiers, as pricing for the Numpad was coming in a little high compared to its MOQ
--Added options for R1 and R2 Backspace (BS) and Delete (CLEAR) (and vice versa) to the ortho kit

OP has been updated as per above.

I will submit the kits to SP for final costing today, after which I will work with the vendors on kit pricing and finalizing a date for the GB.

Other than that, the only thing I'm waiting on are new renders from Abec13. Due to the time of year, I wouldn't expect the next update until after the holidays.

Finally, even though the kits are finalized, please consider filling out the form if you haven't already, as it's still very helpful to me and the vendors. Cheers!

[horchata771]

So looking forward for this one!

[Fredington]

So looking forward for this one!

Before you edited your response above, if you were referring to sin/cos/tan keys like you mentioned previously, there is no chance for that.

However, I would consider moving the ∑s into a separate kit like the below if the response is good (and possibly offering a blank ergo kit). I know I already said the kits are locked, and this would really be the last change.

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Like the maths kit. Would use for arrow cluster.

[jrs]

Why SA and not MT3?  I've heard that MT3 is a lot better to type on.

[ullr]

Why SA and not MT3?  I've heard that MT3 is a lot better to type on.

SA is doubleshot, which permits legends to be lighter than the cap. This is impossible with traditional dye-sub techniques, which is what most MT3 sets have used. Doubleshot MT3 is unproven, and there is no reason to believe they will make a couple dozen extra doubleshot toolings for a set/designer with no relationship with Drop.

[horchata771]

Before you edited your response above, if you were referring to sin/cos/tan keys like you mentioned previously, there is no chance for that.

However, I would consider moving the ∑s into a separate kit like the below if the response is good (and possibly of offering a blank ergo kit). I know I already said the kits are locked, and this would really be the last change.

I like the idea of a maths kit. An integral symbol really rounds out the sets. The sin/cos was just a thought when I posted before. I was just wondering in my last post about having an expanded math symbol set. If there is enough interest to add a math set, I'm definitely in!

[ihalatch]

Before you edited your response above, if you were referring to sin/cos/tan keys like you mentioned previously, there is no chance for that.

However, I would consider moving the ∑s into a separate kit like the below if the response is good (and possibly of offering a blank ergo kit). I know I already said the kits are locked, and this would really be the last change.

I like the idea of a maths kit. An integral symbol really rounds out the sets. The sin/cos was just a thought when I posted before. I was just wondering in my last post about having an expanded math symbol set. If there is enough interest to add a math set, I'm definitely in!

+1

[Fredington]

Alright, well I added a couple questions about a potential novelty kit and ergo blanks to the form. Please let me know your thoughts. If you've filled out the form already, you should be able to edit your response. Thank you!

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Edited my previous form. Thank you!

[Rayndalf]

Did somebody say ergo blanks? Boardwalk support should be pretty easy to include (for all I know its already there, I'm a little lazy), and add a lot of utility. I was probably going to skip this, but boardwalk support has forced me to reconsider.

Blank mods gang rising

[Robosculpts]

Did somebody say ergo blanks? Boardwalk support should be pretty easy to include (for all I know its already there, I'm a little lazy), and add a lot of utility. I was probably going to skip this, but boardwalk support has forced me to reconsider.

Blank mods gang rising

+1 for Boardwalk support please!! This set would look rad on a Boardwalk/ Boardrun.

[Fredington]

Did somebody say ergo blanks? Boardwalk support should be pretty easy to include (for all I know its already there, I'm a little lazy), and add a lot of utility. I was probably going to skip this, but boardwalk support has forced me to reconsider.

Blank mods gang rising

Thank you for your input. I will definitely include Boardwalk support in the ergo kit if it gets added.

This actually gives me a good excuse to explain why I'm considering blank mods as opposed to legended mods specific to the SAIL theme...

For one (I know I said previously that blank mods would look unbalanced with the dual legended alphas), as I look at more and more vintage boards, I'm finding that blank mods combined with dual legend alphas aren't unheard of. So there is a historical precedent for this.

Secondly, an ergo kit with custom legends would add another 18 (19 with Boardwalk support) new molds to the already high mold count. Again, I will use SA Symbiosis 2.0 as an example...Symbiosis had 21(!) kits to help spread out the cost of the molds. Since SAIL is a monotone set, there are only 6 (maybe eight) kits amongst which to spread that cost. So you have a situation where instead of paying say a $4 premium per kit to cover the new molds, you're paying a premium of $8 per kit (these numbers are hypothetical). So I do not believe this set can support that many more molds, given the much smaller amount of kits offered. If an ergo kit gets added, it will be blanks.

Again, if you're seeing this for the first time, I've added a couple questions to the form. Please consider filling it out, even if you've already done so. Thank you.

[_rubik]

Not usually a huge SA fan, but this... this caught my eye. Definitely interested.

[Fredington]

OK, so 27 new responses (on top of edited ones) on the form in 24 hours is...actually pretty good this late into the IC. Let me know what you guys think of the below new kits:





Again, here's a link to the form if you haven't filled it out. Much appreciation to all who gave their input.

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

like that maths kit!

[horchata771]

I'm loving that math kit! The therefore key is quite practical to include.

[d00deitsnik]

+1 to the Math kit love. I liking the other keys you've added to the novelties kit since the IC form pictures.

[ideus]

It is a hard to resist set, even if it does not match the legends that I need. I think this type of sets are far and away of proper legends, by any means.

[nasp]

I know this doesn't quite make sense because there's already an ortho kit, but if you added 2, 1u r4 keys to the ergo kit, ortho folks could pick up that kit and a spacebar kit, and be good to go. Why would anyone do this? Perhaps some ortho folks also have an ergo board that uses 1.5u mods, or perhaps the ergo kit and spacebar kit combined will be cheaper than the ergo/40's kit, or perhaps they'd rather have blank mods.

Just something to think about.

[equalunique]

This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

Well, I only got one request for an ergo kit in the interest check form.

I'm also not inclined to offer one for the following reasons:

• A modern assembly kit would not match well with these vintage-style legends.
• Blanks would look unbalanced due to the dual-legend nature of the alphas.
• Custom legends would add additional cost to the set and I'd like to keep it pretty tight.

At the end of the day, an ergo kit would depend on interest level and right now, it's lacking.

I will say though, that if I were to add an ergo kit, I would use forms and functions that are unique to Stanford LISP 1.6, the version of LISP used at SAIL. So if that piques your interest, all you ergo users better show up in the form!

I don't have a problem with a blank ergo kit, but I think an ergo kit with LISP legends like in SA Symbiosis would be better:

[Fredington]

This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

Well, I only got one request for an ergo kit in the interest check form.

I'm also not inclined to offer one for the following reasons:

• A modern assembly kit would not match well with these vintage-style legends.
• Blanks would look unbalanced due to the dual-legend nature of the alphas.
• Custom legends would add additional cost to the set and I'd like to keep it pretty tight.

At the end of the day, an ergo kit would depend on interest level and right now, it's lacking.

I will say though, that if I were to add an ergo kit, I would use forms and functions that are unique to Stanford LISP 1.6, the version of LISP used at SAIL. So if that piques your interest, all you ergo users better show up in the form!

I don't have a problem with a blank ergo kit, but I think an ergo kit with LISP legends like in SA Symbiosis would be better:

Show Image

The SA Symbiosis ergo legends are unavailable to me to use. Thus, we would need new legends, which means new molds. I've already explained why this is unfeasible for a set like this, using SA Symbiosis as an example:

This actually gives me a good excuse to explain why I'm considering blank mods as opposed to legended mods specific to the SAIL theme...

For one (I know I said previously that blank mods would look unbalanced with the dual legended alphas), as I look at more and more vintage boards, I'm finding that blank mods combined with dual legend alphas aren't unheard of. So there is a historical precedent for this.

Secondly, an ergo kit with custom legends would add another 18 (19 with Boardwalk support) new molds to the already high mold count. Again, I will use SA Symbiosis 2.0 as an example...Symbiosis had 21(!) kits to help spread out the cost of the molds. Since SAIL is a monotone set, there are only 6 (maybe eight) kits amongst which to spread that cost. So you have a situation where instead of paying say a $4 premium per kit to cover the new molds, you're paying a premium of $8 per kit (these numbers are hypothetical). So I do not believe this set can support that many more molds, given the much smaller amount of kits offered. If an ergo kit gets added, it will be blanks.

[equalunique]

This is a pretty hot set. I love the similarities to space cadet.

Would an Assembly kit be offered or is that still in the works?

Well, I only got one request for an ergo kit in the interest check form.

I'm also not inclined to offer one for the following reasons:

• A modern assembly kit would not match well with these vintage-style legends.
• Blanks would look unbalanced due to the dual-legend nature of the alphas.
• Custom legends would add additional cost to the set and I'd like to keep it pretty tight.

At the end of the day, an ergo kit would depend on interest level and right now, it's lacking.

I will say though, that if I were to add an ergo kit, I would use forms and functions that are unique to Stanford LISP 1.6, the version of LISP used at SAIL. So if that piques your interest, all you ergo users better show up in the form!

I don't have a problem with a blank ergo kit, but I think an ergo kit with LISP legends like in SA Symbiosis would be better:

Show Image

The SA Symbiosis ergo legends are unavailable to me to use. Thus, we would need new legends, which means new molds. I've already explained why this is unfeasible for a set like this, using SA Symbiosis as an example:

This actually gives me a good excuse to explain why I'm considering blank mods as opposed to legended mods specific to the SAIL theme...

For one (I know I said previously that blank mods would look unbalanced with the dual legended alphas), as I look at more and more vintage boards, I'm finding that blank mods combined with dual legend alphas aren't unheard of. So there is a historical precedent for this.

Secondly, an ergo kit with custom legends would add another 18 (19 with Boardwalk support) new molds to the already high mold count. Again, I will use SA Symbiosis 2.0 as an example...Symbiosis had 21(!) kits to help spread out the cost of the molds. Since SAIL is a monotone set, there are only 6 (maybe eight) kits amongst which to spread that cost. So you have a situation where instead of paying say a $4 premium per kit to cover the new molds, you're paying a premium of $8 per kit (these numbers are hypothetical). So I do not believe this set can support that many more molds, given the much smaller amount of kits offered. If an ergo kit gets added, it will be blanks.

Ok thanks for the clarification. Blank legends it is.

Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk

[SteeleDynamics]

Will there be a 6u spacebar for HHKB layout?

[CherryTeam]

Pretty set 

[Fredington]

Will there be a 6u spacebar for HHKB layout?

No. SP have yet to make this mold.

I actually inquired about the possibility of getting the mold made. I even offered to pay for it like any of the other new molds in this set, but they simply said that it was on their list of (eventual) to-dos and they would not charge designers for it. Basically, I tried throwing money at the problem and it didn't work. It's quite a strange and unsatisfying answer TBH, but there you go.

[SteeleDynamics]

OK

Well, if/when SP decides to offer a 6u spacebar, maybe do another GB?

I may purchase anyways. Then buy the spacebar later. Very excited regardless!

[Fredington]

OK

Well, if/when SP decides to offer a 6u spacebar, maybe do another GB?

I may purchase anyways. Then buy the spacebar later. Very excited regardless!

If that happens I may offer a GB for the new spacebar only. Currently no plans for a R2 of this set.

[Fredington]

Updated and new renders have been added to the OP. These reflect the new Pantone color and refined legends mentioned previously.

Below is a comparison between the old color and the new color:



I've also officially added the novelty kit and the ergo blanks kit (w/ Boardwalk support).

See below for complete changelog:

--Added updated/new renders that reflect the new Pantone; a number of legends have been refined to be more reflective of the inspiration
--Added new Maths and Ergo Blanks kits (w/ Boardwalk support); replaced µ with ∇ in the Maths kit as I felt it fit better with the theme
--Moved the ∑s in the Alphas and Numpad into the new Maths kit
--Kits are now LOCKED for real (unless a mistake is found)

Please fill out the form if you haven't already, as it really helps determine the MOQ for each kit to achieve the lowest possible prices.

A GB date will be announced soon!

[horchata771]

Updated and new renders have been added to the OP. These reflect the new Pantone color and refined legends mentioned previously.

Below is a comparison between the old color and the new color:

Show Image

I've also officially added the novelty kit and the ergo blanks kit (w/ Boardwalk support).

Noice work on the sets and improved colors! Can't wait for the group buy to happen!

Out of curiosity, what's the lead time from the end of group buy to production of the caps? I know each company has their own capabilities, but what has SP said? I read an article on drop about them, and they mentioned it's kind of up in the air depending on what I presume is the complexity/size of the set. Just interested in learning as much as possible about this community, manufacturers included.

[nasp]

Color change looks great! I'll be excited to pick this one up and put on my Atlas 

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Out of curiosity, what's the lead time from the end of group buy to production of the caps? I know each company has their own capabilities, but what has SP said? I read an article on drop about them, and they mentioned it's kind of up in the air depending on what I presume is the complexity/size of the set. Just interested in learning as much as possible about this community, manufacturers included.

SP SA Troubled minds had the group buy close at the end of May 2018 and I got them in my hands early April 2019. I think symbiosis was about that. SA violet on cream was just under 9.5 months. I think 10 months is reasonable for SAIL, and they’re not gonna tell you 12-13 months is likely, but I don’t think many with a few SA GB’s under their belt would be shocked at a year.

SA Laser closed at the end of May 2019. Drop said they’d ship in mid- November 2019, and people new to drop and SA believed that. I figure 9-10 months is about right (end of February 20 would be 9 months). This is a good one to see as they’ve got a lot of new molds for mitowaves and such.

[CherryTeam]

nice bro !

[Fredington]

Happy to announce that the GB will happen in March 2020!

Also, I've updated the banner to reflect the new color:

Code: [Select]

[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103307.0][img]https://i.imgur.com/Ar665CJ.jpg[/img][/url]

[firetruckboy]

I for one am ready.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

[FRANCO]

March 2020! Heck yes...I can't wait!

[fatboycarney]

Such a great job on this set, been following along since OP,  if funds allow I am grabbing this. GLWGB in March!!

[Fredington]

I've designed a simple, PCB-inspired deskpad to go along with the set. Please fill out the poll as to your preference! Renders will be added soon!

Black




Green

[hottrout]

Love the mats.  Really simple and clean.

[catbus]

I'd love to see a green mat with the traces the same colour as the legends

[Shurakai]

I had to stop lurking and create an account to say that I can't wait for the group buy to drop.

Also, I second the idea of the green deskmat with the traces in the legend color.  GLWGB!  Come on March!

[Fredington]

I had to stop lurking and create an account to say that I can't wait for the group buy to drop.

Also, I second the idea of the green deskmat with the traces in the legend color.  GLWGB!  Come on March!

Thanks for the support. I mocked up a version like you described but I feel like it's too high contrast. What do you guys think?

[Shurakai]

I had to stop lurking and create an account to say that I can't wait for the group buy to drop.

Also, I second the idea of the green deskmat with the traces in the legend color.  GLWGB!  Come on March!

Thanks for the support. I mocked up a version like you described but I feel like it's too high contrast. What do you guys think?

Show Image

I think I like it. I see what you mean about the contrast, but I like the callback to the colors. Would it be possible to mock up a render with one of the keyboards?

Thanks for the mockup!

[Version467]

Loving the keyset, can't wait for the gb, not sure about the deskmat though.
I quite like the design, but it feels too... noisy? I don't know, I think it's a bit cluttered.

[equalunique]

Been dreaming about SP stocking WCK homing keys so I can make a keeb using almost only the Maths kit as pseudo-blanks.

Sent from my Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 using Tapatalk

[catbus]

I had to stop lurking and create an account to say that I can't wait for the group buy to drop.

Also, I second the idea of the green deskmat with the traces in the legend color.  GLWGB!  Come on March!

Thanks for the support. I mocked up a version like you described but I feel like it's too high contrast. What do you guys think?

Show Image

I think I like it. I see what you mean about the contrast, but I like the callback to the colors. Would it be possible to mock up a render with one of the keyboards?

Thanks for the mockup!

Seconded for seeing it with a render. I personally really like the color matching version; but would like to see it in a render with the key caps to see how well it blends :)

[SteeleDynamics]

Got MX sliders for my HHKB.

The suspense is killing me!!!

[bliss]

The suspense is killing me!!!

We all know the feeling, but I found your comment hilarious

After placing a preorder, it might be best for one's sanity to entirely forget about it for a while - I tend to check the GB pages often, too
 

[Fredington]

Big update today so let's jump right into it...

First, I did end up requesting a couple of samples. As a reminder, these are not correct for color. See below:



A couple things:

1. E@ represents the maximum vertical dimension that SP is able to doubleshot on SA profile, which works out to about a 10% vertical reduction from their current size
2. Legends are too thin, especially compared to the inspiration and especially with the size reduction

As a result, all legends have been completely reworked to be significantly bolder. Please see some comparisons below:





You might have also noticed the color change in the above comparisons. The previous color, 7716 C, is no longer showing up on Pantone's website when I search for it. So rather than risk any potential supply issues due to the color being possibly discontinued, I've gone ahead and selected a new standard, 7717 C. Comparison below:



As you can see, this new color is even deeper and more saturated, which I think will look fantastic in ABS.

Now onto some kit adjustments...

I know I said previously that the kits were locked, but after adding the novelty kit, I realized that ISO users could easily run into a situation where they would either 1) be missing a key, 2) have to use a duplicate key, or 3) be forced into buying the novelty kit! To fix this, I've moved the Σ keys back into the Alphas where they originally were. I've also took the opportunity make a couple other adjustments in order to get you guys better end pricing:

1. Following recent trends in numpad kit design, R1 keys for standalone numpads have been removed from the Numpad kit.
2. 1800 layout support has been moved from the Modifiers into the Numpad kit.

This should result in better pricing on the Modifiers, Numpad, and Maths kits, as well as providing complete (physical) ISO coverage and some novelties for everyone who buys the Alphas.

Finally, I've decided to offer two deskpad options, a high contrast green one and a monochrome black one:





All updates have been posted in the OP. I also incorporated the new novelties into the updated renders. Deskpad renders and kit pricing should be up in the next couple weeks. We're getting close!

Massive thanks and shoutout to Abec13 for redoing all the renders!

[Shurakai]

I love the deskpad decisions. I can't wait for this to drop. This will be my first Day 1 buy.

Edit to say that I was concerned about the alpha legends update, but the renders look great.

The samples are not an attempt at the SAIL color, are they? They look to be a pretty good match to 1976 to me, but way off for SAIL

[Fredington]

The samples are not an attempt at the SAIL color, are they? They look to be a pretty good match to 1976 to me, but way off for SAIL

I did end up requesting a couple of samples. As a reminder, these are not correct for color.

[Shurakai]

The samples are not an attempt at the SAIL color, are they? They look to be a pretty good match to 1976 to me, but way off for SAIL

I did end up requesting a couple of samples. As a reminder, these are not correct for color.

I somehow misread that the first time. Thanks for the gentle hand.

[bliss]

Great update! - You would not miss anything until you see the upgraded version: The contrast is improved markedly, and the design is indeed closer to the inspiration now.

[ZoomBoy]

I'm in! Very nice looking set!

[Cat Tails]

Wonderful! Your renders seem spot on. I'd buy on the first day.

Just curious: the alphas kit image suggests FJ homing keys. What are they like?

[Fredington]

Wonderful! Your renders seem spot on. I'd buy on the first day.

Just curious: the alphas kit image suggests FJ homing keys. What are they like?

Deep dish.

[gminso]

wish it had one color inversion like for enter key or escape, but I am in for a set anyways

[nasp]

I'd love to see a render of a board with a numpad since you have some different legends then what is there usually.

[Fredington]

Deskpad renders have been posted below and in the OP.

Green Hi-Contrast







Black Monochrome

[horchata771]

Deskpad renders have been posted below and in the OP.

Hubba hubba! Those new bold legends are looking great!

[nasp]

Any chance of a 3u bar in the split bar kit?

[Fredington]

Any chance of a 3u bar in the split bar kit?

What layout is that for? Minila?

[Ealdin]

My first SA set, here we go! I'm definitely in.

[nasp]

Any chance of a 3u bar in the split bar kit?

What layout is that for? Minila?

Sorry for late response. Didn't know you had replied.

It's not for Minila, at least not for me, but I know a few split boards that use it, and I've also talked with a few designers that would have incorporated it into their board's layout if 3u bars were more prevalent. It's sorta a chicken and egg kind of thing and def. niche, but considering how small the split bar kit is, I don't think it will add too much to the cost.

[Fredington]

Hi guys,

Here with my final update before the GB launches. First of all, the exact dates will be March 1-27!

Second, I've decided to split up the Ortho/40s kit into Ortho and 40s Extension kits for a couple reasons...1) the kit I based the combined Ortho/40s kit on failed in its GB (SA Sunday Morning) and 2) I thought it would be a nice way to reward all the ortho users (who really showed up in the IC form). To accommodate this unfortunately, the Split B-ars kit has been replaced with a small 40s Extension kit, so 40s users will need to purchase Alphas+Modifiers+40s Extension for coverage. I feel like this isn't the worst thing because I think many 40s users are not wholly committed to 40s exclusively, whereas I don't think the same can be said of ortho users. To those that wanted the Split B-ars kit, rest assured that all the keys in that kit are in the 40s Extension kit, you just have to pay a little more unfortunately. Also, someone on Reddit pointed out that if I'm adding ergo blanks, I shouldn't be afraid of blanks in the ISO kit, so I added a couple and moved the ∑ keys from the Alphas into the Maths kit with the rest of the novelties (Alphas were coming in a bit high on pricing). Below are the final kits:



Note on the Alphas: I have made a few minor corrections to some of the legends that mainly had to do with symmetry and alignment. For example, the ∂ symbol was leaning too far left and has been uprighted.















Also, per a request I received, I had a render made of a board with a numpad, the KBD19X:







Finally, below is the pricing table with MOQs for the various vendors:

[Fredington]

Any chance of a 3u bar in the split bar kit?

What layout is that for? Minila?

Sorry for late response. Didn't know you had replied.

It's not for Minila, at least not for me, but I know a few split boards that use it, and I've also talked with a few designers that would have incorporated it into their board's layout if 3u bars were more prevalent. It's sorta a chicken and egg kind of thing and def. niche, but considering how small the split bar kit is, I don't think it will add too much to the cost.

Sorry we couldn't get it done this time!

[dr_unconscionable]

Liking the kit updates, liking the Canadian proxy, and still loving the set! Looking forward to the GB!

[enrique.aliaga]

Awesome! I’m ready to join.

Quick question: I’m based in South America. Should I order from NovelKeys (the NA vendor) or iLumKB (the Asian vendor). I’ve purchased stuff from both vendors before, FWIW.


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[Fredington]

Awesome! I’m ready to join.

Quick question: I’m based in South America. Should I order from NovelKeys (the NA vendor) or iLumKB (the Asian vendor). I’ve purchased stuff from both vendors before, FWIW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think that's a question for the vendors. Maybe see which one would be cheaper shipped to your country? Perhaps you can also consider DailyClack, as they can also service international orders.

[trashpanda]

hey... looking forward to this set. just FYI the group buy page up at Desk Hero has out of date kit photos.  you'll wanna get those updated before this goes live so everyone knows what exactly they're getting.

https://www.deskhero.ca/collections/keycap-sets/products/sa-sail

[Fredington]

hey... looking forward to this set. just FYI the group buy page up at Desk Hero has out of date kit photos.  you'll wanna get those updated before this goes live so everyone knows what exactly they're getting.

https://www.deskhero.ca/collections/keycap-sets/products/sa-sail

Thanks for the heads up. I've let him know.

[Fredington]

Small update before we're live...

I've decided to change NUM LOCK to simply NUM. Apologies to all the Num Lock lovers out there.

[Fredington]

GB is live: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104881.0