[IC] Paragon – 75% gasket mount w encoder | Soundtests, GB Jan 8

[beekey]

How about a curved cutout on the back, the reveal the base? If base has a different colour it would be a nice accent. Knob and base could be colour matched, would like nice IMO.

[r00dy]

Getting masive Koyu vibes. This needs a split between the arrow keys and modifiers

We're exploring the option of a split between the arrows and modifiers. However, like we mentioned before, the split will throw off the uniform bezel regardless of how it is implemented. An offset cluster would require an entire redesign of the board's internals as well since the mounting system is concealed within the bezel. The current layout is relatively unique to the Paragon and allows it to maintain an even/symmetrical appearance and any changes would immediately alter the aesthetic.

Very nice looking case.  I think a wider bottom weight would like nicer and better proportioned.

Thanks, we've received a lot of feedback regarding the weight (especially the width). We're reconsidering the design of the weight at the moment as it pertains to increasing the size.

Looks really interesting, filled in the IC form. One thing I would also like to say is that the knob looks a bit too tall, but aside from that it looks really clean!

Thanks, we've also received a lot of feedback regarding the knob and we're looking into reducing the height. However, we would like the knob to still be as tall or taller than the keycaps but there's still some height that can be trimmed down.

A bit too similar to the Koyu imo. I understand that the guts are different, but the outside looks like a 75% koyu with a knob. That's past inspiration at this point. There needs to be more to claim it was "inspired by" and not "copied". Something as simple as a chamfered edge would make a world of difference. New designers stand on the shoulder on giants, so it is fine and understandable to want to use those who came before us as inspiration, but if you're not adding on to that design, you're not standing on their shoulders, you're leaning on them. Look at the Alice for instance: Many boards have copied the layout, but some of them are outright clones, while others have provided very nice additions and made amazing cases that really set them apart from the original design.

Also, a blocker between the ctrl and arrow key cluster would make this a prettier and easier to use board (for me). Even better if the navkeys also end up separated, but that's not as important to me.

The single most important thing though is definitely that you guys partner with a reputable vendor.

There is potential here, but it needs more time on the drawing board. This is your first board, and there is a big risk that you will get the copycat label assigned to you by the community if you go through with this.

Don't let these comments tear you down, and don't abandon the project! I'm just giving you guys my honest feedback and I hope my criticism is constructive and helpful, I wouldn't bother commenting if I didn't think this could become something nice.

Edit: spelling

Thanks for the feedback. We've explained the differences in the FAQ so we're not going to rehash the issue entirely but we did highlight the surface level differences between the Paragon and the Koyu. Since the internals are completely different along with the surface level differences including the form factor, knob, and layout spacing, we feel that this board differentiates itself enough at the moment; while adding a chamfer is an interesting idea, it would instantly detract from the clean curves and bezel of the Paragon. We've addressed the issue with key spacing above and the current layout of the Paragon is relatively unique; adding blockers and clusters/offsets would only make it more similar to existing boards (something which we're being paradoxically critiqued for here). As we mentioned before, we're looking into partnering with vendors and we're currently waiting for responses.

How about a curved cutout on the back, the reveal the base? If base has a different colour it would be a nice accent. Knob and base could be colour matched, would like nice IMO.

This is interesting and we'll look into it. There will be at least a third color option based predicated upon the IC and maybe we can mix and match the bottom and top if we do go down this route.

[toastMoney]

 Board looks great, only alteration I'd make would be to shorten the knob.  Would it be possible to have different knob heights as options?

[dydy124]

I think you guys owe it to yourselves to stay true to your design philosophy of symmetry, meaning no arrow blocker.
I do believe though the knob should be shorter to be a more even part of the design and follow the same concept idea of "evenness".
The idea being everything is in harmony, nothing is out of place, the knob standing so tall over keycaps to promote easy acces, is a design philosophy flaw/aberrance imo.

[mustardgreens]

First 75% in a long time I am interested in, I think it is well put together

[r00dy]

Where was this designed??

Australia at RamaWorks 
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.

----- r00dy -----


What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.

Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.

Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.

My good sir, if you think that similarity = stealing, then you need to revolt against every single other board that ever gets IC'd on geekhack. Just because the board is similar to a rama board doesn't mean rama can't release his own board.

A bit too similar to the Koyu imo. I understand that the guts are different, but the outside looks like a 75% koyu with a knob. That's past inspiration at this point. There needs to be more to claim it was "inspired by" and not "copied". Something as simple as a chamfered edge would make a world of difference. New designers stand on the shoulder on giants, so it is fine and understandable to want to use those who came before us as inspiration, but if you're not adding on to that design, you're not standing on their shoulders, you're leaning on them. Look at the Alice for instance: Many boards have copied the layout, but some of them are outright clones, while others have provided very nice additions and made amazing cases that really set them apart from the original design.

Also, a blocker between the ctrl and arrow key cluster would make this a prettier and easier to use board (for me). Even better if the navkeys also end up separated, but that's not as important to me.

The single most important thing though is definitely that you guys partner with a reputable vendor.

There is potential here, but it needs more time on the drawing board. This is your first board, and there is a big risk that you will get the copycat label assigned to you by the community if you go through with this.

Don't let these comments tear you down, and don't abandon the project! I'm just giving you guys my honest feedback and I hope my criticism is constructive and helpful, I wouldn't bother commenting if I didn't think this could become something nice.

Edit: spelling

We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well for our group buy so the board will run with the current design aesthetic.

Board looks great, only alteration I'd make would be to shorten the knob.  Would it be possible to have different knob heights as options?

First 75% in a long time I am interested in, I think it is well put together

As mentioned before, we're looking into adjusting the knob height as it was one of the most popular suggestions on the IC form. Selling multiple SKUs of a knob height might increase the price although it would be interesting to sell knobs with different height (e.g. one for a GMK height or one for an SA height etc.). It's definitely food for thought but we'll probably look into that after we get a working prototype. We are looking into making a special version of the knob with a more premium metal for some added flair but again, that can only happen after we get a working prototype.

First 75% in a long time I am interested in, I think it is well put together

Thanks, we're hoping to make this board a reality!

[The.Ryan.Gamer]

Interested. However, i couldn't find a target price? And when is the target date for GB?

[r00dy]

Interested. However, i couldn't find a target price? And when is the target date for GB?

We mentioned $400-700 in the IC post but we've revamped some of the internals to cut costs and we're talking to manufacturers at the moment (hopefully we can drop the price to the $400-500 range). We're hoping to get this to groupbuy in early 2021 (Q1).

[Paragon]

I hope this happens so I can get a board to match the name! In all seriousness the render looks nice, I am not a fan of the weight on the back but good thing you usually dont have to look at that. I also want to echo what others have said and have a knob that matches the key height.

Once you have some quality vendors and a set price I look forward to trying my luck at it in 2021! 

[Bobatype]

I love the look: 75% form factor + rotary dial feature inclusion is right up my alleyway.
However there are two criticisms that others have mentioned that I'll echo:
I like knobs a lot (like way too much), but your current render is rather unappealing, and it literally sticks out like a sore thumb. It's kind of confronting. I might suggest looking at other boards iterations of knobs for a sense of how to get one that still harmoniously resides on the board.
The weight on the back is also rather basic too, but that's personal preference on aesthetics.

[The.Ryan.Gamer]

Interested. However, i couldn't find a target price? And when is the target date for GB?

We mentioned $400-700 in the IC post but we've revamped some of the internals to cut costs and we're talking to manufacturers at the moment (hopefully we can drop the price to the $400-500 range). We're hoping to get this to groupbuy in early 2021 (Q1).

Noted. We'll wait 

[r00dy]

I love the look: 75% form factor + rotary dial feature inclusion is right up my alleyway.
However there are two criticisms that others have mentioned that I'll echo:
I like knobs a lot (like way too much), but your current render is rather unappealing, and it literally sticks out like a sore thumb. It's kind of confronting. I might suggest looking at other boards iterations of knobs for a sense of how to get one that still harmoniously resides on the board.
The weight on the back is also rather basic too, but that's personal preference on aesthetics.

Thanks, we've already shortened the knob in the current design and we've changed the weight dimensions. We belive that the knob shouldn't be shorter than the tallest keycap profile because the knob should be accessible and align well with the profile. Currently, the new knob design aligns with the SA function row height. The weight design is still up in the air at the moment but we're hoping to keep it simple.

[pickoloh]

interested!

[werc]

Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?

[r00dy]

Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?

Thanks for the interest, we're still talking to vendors and manufacturers at the moment but we're aiming for Q1 of 2021. We hadn't considered Via since we were offering qmk compatibility and it hasn't really been requested much. We've finalized the layout and although the request for blockers is reasonable, we feel as though the uniform bezel aesthetic will be compromised by the introduction of blockers; we also wanted to reduce the number of SKUs to keep the price lower.

[davisthegreat]

like this alot, i love rama and I didnt think of it at all. There is only so many ways to make a clean lined board and this is a good way. i filled in IC form hoping for a variation of purple, and Fr4 plate availability

[r00dy]

like this alot, i love rama and I didnt think of it at all. There is only so many ways to make a clean lined board and this is a good way. i filled in IC form hoping for a variation of purple, and Fr4 plate availability

Thanks, the three colors as of now are white, black, and deep navy but the Fr4 plate is still in the running based on our IC numbers.

[paperassgasket]

Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?

Thanks for the interest, we're still talking to vendors and manufacturers at the moment but we're aiming for Q1 of 2021. We hadn't considered Via since we were offering qmk compatibility and it hasn't really been requested much. We've finalized the layout and although the request for blockers is reasonable, we feel as though the uniform bezel aesthetic will be compromised by the introduction of blockers; we also wanted to reduce the number of SKUs to keep the price lower.

✋ raising my hand for via support. I like the software.

[r00dy]

Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?

Thanks for the interest, we're still talking to vendors and manufacturers at the moment but we're aiming for Q1 of 2021. We hadn't considered Via since we were offering qmk compatibility and it hasn't really been requested much. We've finalized the layout and although the request for blockers is reasonable, we feel as though the uniform bezel aesthetic will be compromised by the introduction of blockers; we also wanted to reduce the number of SKUs to keep the price lower.

✋ raising my hand for via support. I like the software.

We'll have to look into via since there haven't been a huge number of requests for it. In the meantime feel free to check out our new renders and updates!

[Techlet]

I think people haven't explicitly asked for VIA because it's basically assumed new keyboards running QMK will also be made VIA compatible out of the box.

[r00dy]

I think people haven't explicitly asked for VIA because it's basically assumed new keyboards running QMK will also be made VIA compatible out of the box.

Makes sense, we've decided to add it.

[heartbreak]

need more lilac colorway!!!

[dom]

We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well for our group buy so the board will run with the current design aesthetic.

Of course, "he had no issues" - you've put him in an uncomfortable position.
Anyway...

Peace!

[i luv chuletas]

Drama in GH is getting kinda out of hands these days lol

Anyways, great looking board man. Had responded originally over at Reddit. I was on the 'separate the arrows' bandwagon but now I'm not so sure. VIA support on this is almost a must at this point though haha

Best of luck with the run, I'll probably be joining this one!

[udller]

looks nice, not a big fan of how the weight is currently. i think it would look cooler if it was just engraved into the base ?

[Bobatype]

+1 for reaching out to Rama, very classy
+1 sticking to vision of no blockers and no clusters
+1 for offering ANSI hotswap option for those who don't like soldering/desoldering
+1 new renders with shorter knob. If you do any future renders, I'd suggest one with higher profile keycaps like SA/KAT too.
I also raise my hand for VIA support. I'm too lazy and not interested in fiddling with QMK
Navy being third option is kinda boring, but super predictable, and you'd be amiss to not include it as the 3rd option after black and white
Is brass plate a compulsory option? I get that it's perceived as premium, but it's not my preferred plate type generally.

[r00dy]

Drama in GH is getting kinda out of hands these days lol

Anyways, great looking board man. Had responded originally over at Reddit. I was on the 'separate the arrows' bandwagon but now I'm not so sure. VIA support on this is almost a must at this point though haha

Best of luck with the run, I'll probably be joining this one!

Thanks, there was a lot of deliberation regarding blockers, offset clusters, and wkl layouts but we felt that the uniform bezel defined the aesthetic of the board and sacrificing it for other layouts would detract from the identity of the board. Hopefully, other people on the blocker/offset/wkl bandwagon feel the same way. We mentioned before that we decided to add VIA support; just to clarify, we're implementing it at the moment into the PCB so it should be guaranteed.

looks nice, not a big fan of how the weight is currently. i think it would look cooler if it was just engraved into the base ?

We expanded the weight horizontally to make it larger and we're currently working on a redesign of the logo/engraving. We originally considered a weightless design but we personally love brass weights. The weight does contribute to the "weight" in the sense that the new weight estimate of the board is 7.8 lbs. I'm also pretty certain that an overwhelming majority of people would prefer a weight option than a weightless one.

+1 for reaching out to Rama, very classy
+1 sticking to vision of no blockers and no clusters
+1 for offering ANSI hotswap option for those who don't like soldering/desoldering
+1 new renders with shorter knob. If you do any future renders, I'd suggest one with higher profile keycaps like SA/KAT too.
I also raise my hand for VIA support. I'm too lazy and not interested in fiddling with QMK
Navy being third option is kinda boring, but super predictable, and you'd be amiss to not include it as the 3rd option after black and white
Is brass plate a compulsory option? I get that it's perceived as premium, but it's not my preferred plate type generally.

Thanks for all the support. Hopefully the VIA concerns were alleviated in this comment since we're implementing it at the moment. Deep navy had an overwhelming amount of support and it's a relatively safe color in terms of preserving the elegant aesthetic. We are considering a limited run of a different color of our choice but that's something we'll explore later (if the limited color runs at a higher price, it can offset the price of the other boards so the regular colors can be cheaper). We also haven't determined if there will be a non-brass plate yet and if so, what material. We just asked for people's preference in the IC to get a general idea. The plate materials had some really close results so there will be a tiebreaker if and when we decide to add the second plate and we're not yet sure if brass is compulsory since that's more of a logistical issue. Our focus during the past few weeks has been talking to vendors and manufacturers while obtaining prototypes and we should hopefully have an update on that in the next few days. Queries about plate, knob, and color options are something we want to look into after we get a working prototype. In the meantime however, we have some renders of the Paragon in black with GMK Space Cadet II courtesy of Oblotzky (currently in IC at https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=108243.0)

[captainwado]

This is beautiful. I'll be buying for sure.

[Oni74]

very interested and most likely in for the GB
+1 for deep navy
+1 for ansi hotswap addition
+1 for sticking with original design

I do want to express my opinions for changes:
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I  personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB

[Bobatype]

I do want to express my opinions for changes:
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I  personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB

^good points.
I'm interested in how much cheaper would having no weight cost?

[r00dy]

This is beautiful. I'll be buying for sure.

Thanks for the support!

very interested and most likely in for the GB
+1 for deep navy
+1 for ansi hotswap addition
+1 for sticking with original design

I do want to express my opinions for changes:
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I  personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB

Thanks again for the support and feedback. The seven degree angle seems to be the most popular and will probably be fixed. From our conversations with manufacturers, a CF plate appears to be easeir to manufacture than polycarb but we'll have to determine the material choice and groupbuy options down the road; there's a close tie for #1 and #2 for the plate material question and we will probably put out a second IC closer to the groupbuy stage to figure out if brass should be a primary option or not. The current design without a weight would be a bit awkward from the bottom side since it would look like a chunk was missing from the bottom; this opens up an interesting possibilty of moving the weight to the interior and offering a foam SKU alternative to the weight. We're looking into how an internal weight or foam option affects the sound. Although we currently don't have ESD protection, the data line protection is handled in the pcb by the TPD4E05U06DQAR chip, and the power lines are protected by a ptc fuse + tvs diode. To quote our PCB designer, there shouldn't be an issue on that end unless people are "dropping it into a bathtub" or something.

I do want to express my opinions for changes:
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I  personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB

^good points.
I'm interested in how much cheaper would having no weight cost?

We're looking into at the moment but a weightless option would increase the cost of the weight to others if people opted out of the weight. We're looking into an internal weight but the decision for weight SKUs is something we'll look into later on.

[r00dy]

new member, unlimited group buy, no physical prototype, on the fence about using vendors, I can't tell if this is a poorly structured cash grab siphoning hype from a certain 75% or if OP truly believes this is a good idea. either way, I agree with the aforementioned requirement of post count prior to posting IC's. I feel you may have taken notes from the wrong interest checks without thinking of how poorly they went. I really hope you don't see this comment as a hate comment and you genuinely consider the feedback here. good luck OP.

We've signed with Keebwerk to prototype and manufacture the Paragon. Hopefully this alleviates some of the concerns regarding the groupbuy. We’ve decided to refrain from committing to a vendor at the moment. We want to re-evaluate our options closer to the groupbuy by reaching out vendors again but we definitely will sign a vendor and a few proxies before the groupbuy.

[drfilco]

Oof! I just pre-ordered my first custom like a month ago and this one tickles my fancy even more than that one. Dang, is this thing gorgeous.

[tkgamer62]

very excited cant wait for the group buy

[SleepyJacky]

Just discovered the Paragon in my hunt for a 75%, and my god this thing is a beaut. Very relieved to know that the knob has since been shortened, bummed out about the arrow cluster not having a blocker, but I understand you can't please everyone. Super excited for the GB when it rolls around!

[3yatt]

Sorry if this has been answered. It's a little hairy sorting through the thread. Has it been decided if this will be a limited or unlimited run?

[isot0nic]

Im so in!!

[NOLA]

I am all over this one. Super clean 75. Lines are perfect. That blue is a hit.

[Araset]

Super in! Would be nice to have a EU proxy and unlimited 24h like GB given the popularity. Beautiful design, Navy versione ftw

[Grog]

I am absolutely in love with this board. Sleek aesthetics, nice weight, and a knob (I actually like the added height especially since I have an SA keyset). I wanted a black board, but the white version of this is almost too clean to pass up.

[r00dy]

Sorry if this has been answered. It's a little hairy sorting through the thread. Has it been decided if this will be a limited or unlimited run?

Super in! Would be nice to have a EU proxy and unlimited 24h like GB given the popularity. Beautiful design, Navy versione ftw

Keebwerk has made us aware of an optimal production quantity in terms of both pricing and turnaround time (~3 months). We haven’t decided the GB format but we personally dislike highly limited runs (e.g 50-200 board FCFS). The hope is to run something similar to the Think6.5v2 run which allows anyone to buy it within a limited time frame (might be just for a few hours or a day) but again this all depends on the level of interest. If the GB is limited, the quantity should be high but the availability will depend on the interest as well (IC numbers are currently a little over 1050 at the moment).

Keebwerk is located in Germany and with the ISO support, EU vendor/proxy should be a guarantee. We've seen a lot of questions that we've answered before on geekhack or in our discord pop up in the IC forms lately (stuff like hotswap, knob height, seperated arrow cluster/blocker/wkl); the latest updates are in our discord and we're pretty active there so feel free to drop in and ask more questions. Thanks again for all the support and interest!

[Grog]

Is the discord channel private by any chance? When I accept the invite, discord only shows me the number of members but not any text channels.

[r00dy]

Is the discord channel private by any chance? When I accept the invite, discord only shows me the number of members but not any text channels.

Huh, that's strange. We were having discord issues before but I thought that they were resolved. If you could you PM me on discord, I can try to get to the bottom of the issue!

[Dr-lipschitz]

any chance of alps support?

[r00dy]

any chance of alps support?

Unfortunately not

[r00dy]

I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.

We've decided to settle on 485 boards in total for the groupbuy for reasons mentioned in the updated IC post.

[pcire]

I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.

We've decided to settle on 485 boards in total for the groupbuy for reasons mentioned in the updated IC post.

I really hope to get a spot!

[r00dy]

I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.

We've decided to settle on 485 boards in total for the groupbuy for reasons mentioned in the updated IC post.

I really hope to get a spot!

We've done some rudimentary math in our discord but at the moment, most people who want a board should be able to get one based on the IC results and discord size.We're also looking at ordering the first round of prototypes at the moment.

[xantiema]

Out of curiosity, how troublesome would it be to offer an ISO (+hot-swap?) variant of the PCB? I have a feeling at least a third of the orders would be from Europeans.

I like the design choices and hope you stick to them - I honestly don't think you can pull off a separated arrow cluster in a manner that maintains finesse 

[jackferguson]

Waiting for this kind of keyboard for a long time.