Author Topic: [IC] Type K - Tented Ergo keyboard (10/08/2023 - GB STARTING ON AUGUST 20TH)  (Read 495064 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline keyslug

  • Posts: 1
gok,

Beautiful board and really appreciate all the attention to details and the layout of this board - my wife is finally jumping into the custom keyboard deep end with this board.

Patiently waiting for NovelKeys to list the group buy. I suppose it will go up Monday?

Offline Krolyk

  • Posts: 32
I want two 3u space bars to be the standard. I can't wait to have this.

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk


Offline Gondolindrim

  • Posts: 685
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Type K or Mountain Ergo https://kbdfans.com/products/ic-kbdfans-mountain-ergo-keyboard-kit ?

This is a hypothetical question since ME is obviously discontinued already. But the designs are very similar.

Not sure what the other posters are basing their responses on, as they didn't elaborate on why they like the Type K over the Mountain Ergo, but I own 2 Mountain Ergo's.  Here's how I'm currently weighing the 2 options:

TL;DR - Imo, without a Type K proto on hand to compare in-person with:  Gok is a proven designer, has put a lot of thought into the Type K (TK), and there are more customization options available than there were for the Mountain Ergo (ME).  It's a beautiful board.  However, there are some compromises made in the design that make it  impractical, especially considering it costs double (or more) what the Mountain Ergo did.  Aesthetics and layout are subjective, and the only objective improvement is the customization available.  I'm torn on whether its worth the pricetag.


Design & layout
This is subjective, of course, but there are a number of things we can look at.  They are two completely different styles - the Type K is modelled after the 7V and has more of a high-tech feel, with the LED bar, PC bottom, and exposed back weight.  The Mountain is very angular and simple.  I will say that due the sloped sides, the Mountain's are somewhat difficult to pick up with one hand, not sure how the TK'd fare there.  Thematically, I'd say the angles fit the "mountain" theme.  FWIW, I like the design of the ME, but it's not anything mind-blowing.  The TK definitely has a more thoughtful design - though I can't say it's to my preferences.  The indicator lights on the top are a nice touch.  I like the overall aesthetic, but there are a couple of things that I don't like: the spacebars and the right mods.

The TK doesn't follow the typical 2u+2.25u or 2.25u+2.75u split spacebar layout.  A lot of keycap base kits are coming with a set of 1x 2u+2.25u+2.75u spacebars, which is great for split spacebar users, but means that you will now generally have to buy an additional child kit to outfit the TK vs. the ME, and buying 2nd hand sets will be much harder down the road.  I feel that base kits far outsell any child kits (extension/spacebars) in general, and that they are much harder to get extras of or find on the second hand market for sets that have already run.  I get that gok was going for elements of symmetry in this board, but I don't think that the compromise was worth it for that alone.  That said, a larger spacebar generally has a fuller sound, though I'm not sure a .25u size difference make that much of a difference.  More on sound later.

Ok, the right mods.  This is purely preference, but I really dislike the look of the right shift not lining up with the enter key, or extending beyond it.  I also get that the single 1.5u mod below that is supposed to emulate the WKL look, but the fact that it's inset even further also looks weird.  For me, a board that is focussed on symmetry, having the right side "retract" while the left side follows the traditonal alice "pyramid" layout looks really strange.  I'd prefer if the right shift was a full 2.75u size, with a 1.75u + 1u option, with either 2 x 1.5u or 1.25u mod keys below that, either in line or extended slightly beyond the right shift.  Again, this is also much better for keycap compatibility as 1.25u shifts are not as common as 1.75u ones.

I do like the TKs left-hand macro column though - I find that there aren't enough keys on the ME to show off novelties or artisans.


Sound
The ME only comes in alu top mount, love it or hate it.  It has a very crisp and even sound, and the alphas are very satisfying to hammer away on.  Mods sounds great, spacebars sound pretty good for an Alice layout.  I tend to prefer clackier builds these days, and both of my boards err on that side.  One is built with WS Onions and ePBT caps, while the other one is Cannoncaps CXA WoB (MTNU Susu can't come fast enough!)  on Azure Dragons.  I run them both with case foam, and no plate foam, as I do find the ME has a bit of case resonance without it, but only around the spacebars.  They have a nice open, clean sound.  Pretty standard for a well-implemented top mount alu plate.

With the soundtests I've heard for the TK, I have... mixed feelings.  I think Makerchun's build with the PC plate sounds the best.  It eliminates that resonance that everyone has been talking about here.  Again, I can't say for sure since I don't have a Type K, but to me it sounds more resonant / hollow than my ME's do with no foam.  I get that you get to hear some of the sound signature of a board with a bit more resonance, but it does seem to be a bit over the top for a keyboard of this class, with a PC bottom and SS weight.  Using a PC plate, even if it doesn't cost extra (though I have a feeling it might), might also make it sound to plasticy.  For the price, this seems like a bit of a risk.  I will say that the spacebars do sound better to my ear on the TK on Makerchun's PC config.  I have a weird issue with the ME where the cuts in the right plate around the spacebar make the switch ever so slightly loose, and only on the one built with Azure Dragons, and since its hotswap there's nothing holding the switch in place. This makes the right space a little less satisfying that it should be.  This doesn't appear to be the case with the TKs plates, as they are 1.5mm think and pretty solid, whereas the ME's plates are quite thin and have more matierial cut away.


Typing feel
The ME is fairly stiff, as is expected with no flex-cuts, and alu top mount.  I have no complaints here, though I wish there was a PC plate available just to see if it would have some forgiveness to it, given that it's a keyboard focussed on ergonomics.  I find that sometimes I get some fatigue in my fingers when I get going on the Azure Dragon build, though I think that's a personal issue.  They are very tactile switches, have a long-pole stem, and I am a fairly heavy typist.  I really enjoy hammering on heavy tactile switches.  I never have this issue on the linear ME, as I tend not to type as heavy on linears.

I can't really comment on the TK, but from the videos it still looks somewhat stiff.  But given that it's grommet mount and that there is a PC plate option, I think it's safe to assume that the TK will have a softer typing feel over the ME.


Finish/quality
I have both the e-white and ano black ME's.  They are both smooth, even, and flawless, inside and out.  The quality is top notch.  The machining is also excellent, there are no scuffs, marks, or uneven lines, even on the tiny bevelled top edge, or on the plate lines cut out.  I have nothing negative to say about the finish of my ME's, other than that my dumbass has put a couple tiny nicks into them when swapping them around.

Given gok's track record, I assume the TK will be the same, if not better.  I will say that part of why I am drawn to the TK is the finishes - e-white and ano black are a bit basic.  I'm really jealous that KBDFan's other ergo board, the Kunlun, came in all kinds of options, though those boards are too wide for me to consider purchasing one.  The TK has 3 more interesting options, which is a plus in my book, and after all, a big part of keyboards is the looks and customization.


Other features
As I've mentioned, the ME was fairly limited in the options available.  Its base configuration is good, but beyond foams and other standard modding, there isn't much to customize here.

The TK has way more options than the ME did.  Finishes, plates, LED light bar, weights, and wrist rests.  I haven't even mentioned the wrist rests.  There are some really nice options, and very unique too.  I like that gok has left open to option to possibly sell different shells in the future too.  I personally don't use a wrist rest, so it's a moot point for me, though I see how that would be appealing to other people.


Price
This is where things get a little hairy for me.  From what I can tell from proto videos, each board has about an even number of pros and cons for me.  I'm really happy with my ME's, but since I have an addiction like you all do, I'm always looking to add to my collection.  There aren't a lot of tented ergos out there, so I've been watching this board for years now.  However, I'm really tempted to buy another ME and just get it cerakoted if I want a new coloured board.  I could get any colour I want, built with switches, stabs, and keycaps for probably the same price (or less) than a TK barebones kit.

I do really want the board, but I am a big believer in only keeping things if you really love them.  A $750+ gamble for something that might be just ok, is a bitter pill to swallow, even if it comes from a notable figure in the space.  I still have 2 weeks to decide, so we'll see how I feel at 11pm on the last day  ^-^

First I am going to preface this by saying I don't think the ME is a bad keyboard, I do not intend to make fun or belittle the product, KBDFans nor the PCB designer. This is my analysis, albeit obviously biased, of how you missed a huge part of your comparison: significant work was done in TK's PCBs to make them not only top notch in quality but also the best in terms of user experience. Yes, I am tooting my own horn here.

First, you will see from the build video in KBDFans' own YT channel below:


that the ME PCB uses 14-pin components which are basically a way to tone down costs to the pennies. This also applies to the daughterboard, the cables used, and the PCB assembly. I can also wager that the PCBs were manufactured using lower standards.

Second, the possibility of having a hotswap option. ME does not have a hotswap PCB option, and all us three (me, kevin and Gok) spent hours making a HS PCB that had all possible layouts. You lose no compatibility with the HS PCBs.

Third,  ME's PCBs are not QMK/VIA compatible, but TMK compatible (QMK's precursor) and remappeable through the YMDK tool.  I can assure you that the user experience with TK is way better. We went through hell to make the keyboard as configurable as possible: for instance, the indicators on TK are fully user configurable. All three indicators can have their color set on VIA, as well as their functionality. So you want your right indicator to be teal and do caps lock and num lock? You got it. You want your central indicator top be yellow to do layer 1, the right indicator to be magenta and do layer 2, and both indicators to light up when in layer 3? That's exactly what I am using right now.

Below is the VIA screen.



You will also notice that the ME PCB can only do split backspace. It cannot do split right shift, nor can it do alternative bottom row layouts, only the defaults and that's it. Yeah, ok, getting 3U keycaps and wires is some hassle (and even then, gok and kevin are including the wires with the base kit for TK) but we do support alternative bottom row layouts.

Finally, I will also point out that the ME PCBs came in a frame using a tool we call "ratbites", which are small holes added to bridges of PCB materials meant to make the PCB easier to break off. However, the mousebites are kind of meh because they are really not so easy to break off, always leave material behind (how would you like toxic FR4 dust in your desk?) and really don't look good after breaking. We did that exact scheme on the first TK PCBs (I believe there are some pictures of that version lying around) but gok said that this is really bad for the user experience, so we went with the technical difficult and little bit more costly choice of using V-cuts. Basically the TK PCBs are pre-cut to make breaking easier, so all you have to do is snap them apart without breaking any materials. This was also done with the RGB strip PCBs. And guess what? Mousebites are cheaper.

And let's not forget, TK will also have an Electrocapacitive kit coming down which Cipulot is working on and I have the honor of saying I am helping him with design and firmware because he's awesome and the Topre messiah.

We all went to hell and back to make the overall "TypeK experience" simply unparalleled. From my end, I can say TK was a technical challenge both in the PCB design, but also in the manufacturing and user experience design fields. We got to the point of adjusting connector positions down to millimeters so it would be easier to connect.

A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline vhaarr

  • Posts: 312
  • Location: Norway
And let's not forget, TK will also have an Electrocapacitive kit coming down which Cipulot is working on and I have the honor of saying I am helping him with design and firmware because he's awesome and the Topre messiah.

I was slightly on the fence with the TK because I'm not used to Alice yet (I just bought a keycron q10 to try it out), but this really cemented it for me :-D

Also, I had no idea. Perhaps EC compat has only been announced on Discord?
Let the Holy Handgrenades rain.
Hammering on an old Happy Hacking Pro 2. Still going strong!

Offline KingOfMemes

  • Posts: 845
  • Location: Murica, the best country in the world
And let's not forget, TK will also have an Electrocapacitive kit coming down which Cipulot is working on and I have the honor of saying I am helping him with design and firmware because he's awesome and the Topre messiah.

I was slightly on the fence with the TK because I'm not used to Alice yet (I just bought a keycron q10 to try it out), but this really cemented it for me :-D

Also, I had no idea. Perhaps EC compat has only been announced on Discord?
Same, where can I follow this project that isn't discord? I had no idea but I'm way into getting EC on this board.

Offline Rhienfo

  • Posts: 571
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • Why is everything I want here so expensive :(
Same, where can I follow this project that isn't discord? I had no idea but I'm way into getting EC on this board.

I think this discord is where other updates will be - https://discord.gg/eTBjdAuzAa

keep in mind I think it will be announced in the GB when it gets released. If it doesn't I'm sure someone including myself will update the thread accordingly.

Offline ToFuMaNiA

  • Posts: 24
I really enjoy this design.. ngl so sick