Seeking compact click tactile keyboard

[ecru]

I have a Unicomp 42H1292U, 02/01/08.  Love the feel but it is only 2 key rollover and reaching for the mouse is uncomfortable.
I also liked the feel of an old white alps board, though I only used it briefly a couple of months ago.

A good looking option is a Cherry G80-1800HFU (using MX blue click tactile).  Unfortunately a new equivilent doesn't appear to be available, and second hand ones rare.

Another option is an ~10 year old nos (US125) or refurb (US75) SIIG minitouch with white alps, though I don't really like the layout.  It appears the same as Diatec / Filco DFK-81E2 which might use strongman now.

And the final option is an IBM spacesaver, though it is only 2 key rollover and untested ~20 year old boards go for US80-135 on ebay (quite a few listings lately).

Does anybody have any n-key rollover results ala the n-key thread for either the Siig minitouch or Cherry G80-1800 boards?

Any ideas on sourcing a Cherry?  I've contacted Multi Media Technologies (an Aust distributor) and Datacal (US).  Allied Electronics (US) don't have an email, though I will try ringing them if Datacal can't help.

Any suggestions on an alternative compact click tactile keyboard?

Thanks ecru.

[IBI]

Which keyboard layout does australia use? Is it the US one?

What about the HHKB pro 2?

[ecru]

Which keyboard layout does australia use? Is it the US one?

No one type is standard, though I think the 2 most common layouts are
US
US with reverse L enter and \ to the left of a shortened backspace

What about the HHKB pro 2?

Interesting sounding quality board.  I think I read on this forum that the keys feel similar to Cherry MX browns which could be a bit soft feeling for me.  As I understand it Cherry MX blues are closer to white Alps.  I suspect the minimalist layout could take a bit of getting used to.

Of course my understandings of key feel could be confused too.

[xsphat]

But the HHKB Pro 2 isn't clicky ... but it is one of the best keyboards made.

[IBI]

Could be clarify terms here? When you say clicky are you talking about the feel of the keys (i.e. they 'snap' when activated) or the noise the keyboard makes?

I know the brown MXs have a slight snap (like the black alps?), doesn't the HHKB have snap as well?

(we really should set up a terms thread or wiki page around here )

How about the SMK-85, isn't that supposed to be nice and clicky? Although it does appear to have the annoying FN key placement.

[ashort]

Unicomp is releasing the Buckling Spring version of the mighty mouse sometime this year....I am waiting on that one.

[xsphat]

A clicky switch actually makes a click sound when the key is depressed (not the clank when the key is bottomed out). Examples are the Model M, Alps with white slider and the Cherry blues.

[xsphat]

The HHKB Pro 2's snap is something I've mentioned here before and everyone called me dumb for it. I know what you're talking about and that is the actuation of the switch you're feeling.

[IBI]

A clicky switch actually makes a click sound when the key is depressed (not the clank when the key is bottomed out). Examples are the Model M, Alps with white slider and the Cherry blues.

I was actually talking to ecru, but I guess clarification all round helps

The HHKB Pro 2's snap is something I've mentioned here before and everyone called me dumb for it. I know what you're talking about and that is the actuation of the switch you're feeling.

I'm not feeling it since I don't own one, but I thought I'd read it had a snap.

[ecru]

Could be clarify terms here? When you say clicky are you talking about the feel of the keys (i.e. they 'snap' when activated) or the noise the keyboard makes?

What I am looking for is the crisp 'trigger like' feel, the sound doesn't worry me either way.  My understanding is that ranked in groups this way you have

• IBM model m buckling spring
• Cherry MX blue (click tactile), Alps white, black or blue (click tactile)
• Cherry MX brown (ergo tactile), Cherry MX white (tactile), Cherry ML black (tactile - softer than MX brown), HHKP2 capacitive, Topre Realforce capacitive, Alps Cream, orange or pink (tactile)
• Cherry MX black (linear), Alps Yellow, green or grey (linear)

   Some force-displacement graphs are interesting in trying to quantify tactility.  It would be better if there was more data available.

If the translation was accurate, HHKP2 are "probably" made by Topre and feel similar to the Realforce boards.

As I understand smk85 are out of stock at the moment and are being redesigned to be available again in May.  Given they have been using a variety of keyswitches (white alps, black alps, strongman click, strongman nonclick), and suffering from quality control problems I am a little cautious.  It will be interesting to see what the new model is like.

If the Mightymouse is released in buckling spring then it is certainly an option.  Unfortunately Unicomp have advised that they have no plans to improve upon the current 2-key rollover.

Thanks ecru.

[xsphat]

If the translation was accurate, HHKP2 are "probably" made by Topre and feel similar to the Realforce boards.

This is a known fact.

[ecru]

Oh good.  I guess given the positive reports on Topre capacitive and Cherry MX brown switches perhaps I should look at them with a preferred layout.

A couple that come to mind
Raptor K1 - seen pictures of black and brown stems
G80-1863HUMUS - MX brown, China only? dev model for Raptor?
Filco Majestouch Mini FKB100M/NB - MX brown, Jap layout, numpad
Realforce91UBK NG01B0 - Topre cap, Jap layout, no numpad

Hopefully benippon would be able to source the later two.  Guess I have some research to do on using a Japanese layout keyboard mapped to dvorak (esp where the various symbol keys end up).

[xsphat]

Let us know what you figure out about using the Japanese layout. Where are you from and what layout do you normally use?

BTW, the Filco Mini on BeNippon has brown Cherry switches, just like the ones in the Majestouch I'm typing on and loving right now.

A while back, I was thinking about getting the Topre 101 over the Filco, so I contacted BeNippon and that is how the 101 got on their site. This leads me to believe they should have no problem getting a Topre 91U. I went with the Filco after it was added to their site because of the brown Cherrys, increadbly attractive design, and the key caps themselves because of what reviews said about them.

[IBI]

What I am looking for is the crisp 'trigger like' feel, the sound doesn't worry me either way.  My understanding is that ranked in groups this way you have

• IBM model m buckling spring
• Cherry MX blue (click tactile), Alps white, black or blue (click tactile)
• Cherry MX brown (ergo tactile), Cherry MX white (tactile), Cherry ML black (tactile - softer than MX brown), HHKP2 capacitive, Topre Realforce capacitive, Alps Cream, orange or pink (tactile)
• Cherry MX black (linear), Alps Yellow, green or grey (linear)

   Some force-displacement graphs are interesting in trying to quantify tactility.  It would be better if there was more data available.

They black alps don't snap, they are nonlinear but they're like a solid and precise version of a rubber dome keyboard rather than the model M.

The box on my Raptor K1 shows brown stems but mine has black stems and the only pictures of brown stems I've seen online are on the Hexus announcement, which could have been a pre-release or prototype model.

[xsphat]

I would never equate Alps switches to membranes. Alps switches are high end, crisp and mechanical. None of that can be said for membranes or domes. The blacks are springy sounding and tactile and they feel pretty good, but not as clean as the whites.

I've had A LOT of keyboards with Alps switches, and you almost offended me.

[ecru]

IBI - Shame about the Raptor k1's being all MX blacks now.  There are some new UK layout ones on ebay.  Haven't been able to find any secondhand G80-1800 or G80-1863 with MX browns.  As I understand it G80-11900 are all MX black.

Datacal advise I would need to order 500 units to get a G80-1800 with MX switches made up.  Apparently the G81-1800 have pushed them out on price.  Anybody want the other 499 boards?

Xsphat - I'm from Australia and used to either US or US with reverse L enter and \ to the left of a shortened backspace.

I haven't found anything on where the symbol keys will end up after mapping to dvorak.  Some initial setting up with xmodmap and individual key codes is tolerable.

Cant find a 'perfect' board, however my shortlist of what is currently available are
1.
Filco Majestouch Mini FKB100M/NB - US97+fr, MX brown, compressed Jap layout with keypad, without kana, symbols scattered - mapping, usb

Siig minitouch (probably + numpad later) - US125+fr + numpad?, White alps, compact layout with numpad over alpha, ` \ moved, DIN-ps/2

2.
Realforce91UBK NG01B0  + Filco Majestouch TenKeyPad FKB22MB to the left of the keyboard
~US260+fr? Topre capacitive 45g / little and ring finger 35g / ESC 55g, Jap layout sans numpad, without kana, symbols scattered - mapping, usb, (mfr claim n-key)

I haven't found anything on key rollover yet, particularly the first two options.

[ecru]

Got the final word from Robert at Northgate Keyboard Repairs on the Siig Minitouch.  He isn't prepared to divulge the model number on the ones he has in stock.  Apparently they have white alps though.  Curiously he also advises that despite the colour plunger, all the alps switches in Northgates are the same inside.

I have found unclear reference (probably in the translation) to white and blue alps and model 1903 and model JK-A10032.  If anybody finds more information, please share.  Or if anybody buys one, a review would be outstanding.

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kbdmania.net%2Fboard%2Fzboard.php%3Fid%3Duser_review%26page%3D20%26sn1%3D%26divpage%3D1%26sn%3Doff%26ss%3Don%26sc%3Don%26select_arrange%3Dreg_date%26desc%3Ddesc%26no%3D1170&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurio.egloos.com%2F2689746&langpair=ko%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpark16.wakwak.com%2F%7Eex4%2Fkb%2Fnews0205.htm&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Since I am not prepared to pay that sort of premium for 10 year old stock without a model number, I will order a Filco FKB100M/NB tomorrow if no new information comes up.  Here's hoping the symbol key mapping exercise won't be too painful.

[IBI]

I would never equate Alps switches to membranes. Alps switches are high end, crisp and mechanical. None of that can be said for membranes or domes. The blacks are springy sounding and tactile and they feel pretty good, but not as clean as the whites.

My dell AT102W definitely has black switches that have alps written on them. I wonder if they're fake or something then since they're definitely don't have a springy sound and the heavy point is very high up like a rubber dome keyboard and unlike a model M's click point.

How about the cherry G84-4100 mechanical low profile keyboard? EDIT: I think the US one might be called the MX4100.

[alpslover]

My dell AT102W definitely has black switches that have alps written on them. I wonder if they're fake or something then since they're definitely don't have a springy sound and the heavy point is very high up like a rubber dome keyboard and unlike a model M's click point.

no, they're genuine alps, it's the way the black alps switches are.  i've got many of these dell keyboards at work and they're not very clicky or tactile at all.  the only point in their travel that i'd even think of describing them as 'crisp' is when they bottom out.

[xsphat]

Do you think this difference could be attributed to the fact that my black were brand new and the ones in the Dells are years old?

My blacks were tactile, not clicky, and they were really loud. By the way you describe them Alpslover, you must not like them too much.

[alpslover]

Do you think this difference could be attributed to the fact that my black were brand new and the ones in the Dells are years old?

if you mean 'unused' vs. 'heavily used', i'd say no, because the dells i have at work, while being years old, have hardly been used at all.

My blacks were tactile, not clicky, and they were really loud.

which keyboard are you using that has these clicky black alps switches?

By the way you describe them Alpslover, you must not like them too much.

i don't like them much at all.  i'm not sure i'd even say they're better than rubber dome keyboards, because rubber dome keyboards can vary widely in feel and i've typed on some rubber domes whose feel i liked more than the black alps.

[xsphat]

My SMK85 had real Alps switches with black sliders and I have never felt a membrane that was anywhere near them. You should lend me one so I can see if the switches are different or if I'm dumb for liking them.

And read my post again, I said they are NOT clicky.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xsphat/1424961118/

I'm giving the URL because the picture is big and there are more pictures of the keyboard in question there.

[alpslover]

My SMK85 had real Alps switches with black sliders and I have never felt a membrane that was anywhere near them. You should lend me one so I can see if the switches are different or if I'm dumb for liking them.

And read my post again, I said they are NOT clicky.

you said 'springy sounding', so if you don't mean clicky, i'm not sure what kind of sound you're describing.

there's a possibility of course that the black alps on your smk85 are not the same internally as the black alps on the dell keyboards, so we may both be right.

[xsphat]

Alright, with the pink sliders, when I write, there is no real spring sound. With the white, orange and black sliders there was a lasting reverberation of the springs, kind of like when you jump on an old box spring. I tend to hammer on mechanical keyboard when I am in the zone, and this is when it was most prevalent.

Don't your white sliders have this spring sound?

[alpslover]

Alright, with the pink sliders, when I write, there is no real spring sound. With the white, orange and black sliders there was a lasting reverberation of the springs, kind of like when you jump on an old box spring. I tend to hammer on mechanical keyboard when I am in the zone, and this is when it was most prevalent.

Don't your white sliders have this spring sound?

yes, they do, but i consider that to be part of their 'clickiness'.

on the other hand, the black alps on the dell keyboards don't have that sound.  they don't really make much of a sound at all until they bottom.

[xsphat]

That's where we were getting screwed up. I only call switches that intentionally click when the key registers "clicky."

I have long had a theory that the color scheme on Alps switches is different in older keyboards than in new ones. Do you think that is the case?

[ecru]

Ordered FKB100M/NB from http://crescent-shop.com/ for US97.65+fr from their office to here.  They seem easy to deal with, transparent and reasonable on their pricing.  Now to hurry up and wait.

Unfortunately my 7 week old Unicomp 42H1292U has just got jealous of my wandering eyes.  The q (' on dvorak map) key still feels and sounds the same however contact point has sunk to right at the end of the stroke and occasionally you need to wiggle it to register - not like the other keys where the contact point is around the click.

I have removed the key stem and compared it to others.  Also tried swapping stems to no avail.  The spring sitting in the board visually appears the same.  I can see no debris or any difference where the stem operates.

It is cheaper to discard the keyboard than pay over US100 in round trip freight to return it.  I understood this when I purchased it and accepted the risk.

I guess this means that there could be a problem in the membranes?  Has anybody had a similar problem, or can suggest a fix?

Thanks ecru.

[xsphat]

From the site:
"Majestouch Mini "mini MAJESUTATCHI" without a keyboard or black Japanese 100"

Funny, you'd think it would come with a keyboard. And what the hell is a hundred year old black Japanese guy have to do with your keyboard?

Anyway, I refer to my Filco as "The Vagistouch" ...

[ecru]

I am sitting here

[alpslover]

That's where we were getting screwed up. I only call switches that intentionally click when the key registers "clicky."

I have long had a theory that the color scheme on Alps switches is different in older keyboards than in new ones. Do you think that is the case?

that does sound like it in this case.  the white alps have always been clicky and tactile though.

[ecru]

Thanks a lot for your advice, the new keyboard just arrived (Filco FKB100M/NB, confirmed brown cherries).  

It looks promising, though will take some getting used to keys switches and layout after the Unicomp 101 customiser.

Surprisingly just plugging it in and making no changes whatsoever, the symbols are mostly in the same positions as the model m mapped to dvorak.  Due to the '7' shaped enter the \ is on the far right of the home row, and there are two 'unused' keys (to the left of the backspace, and to the left of the up arrow).

[xsphat]

Thanks a lot for your advice, the new keyboard just arrived (Filco FKB100M/NB, confirmed brown cherries).  

It looks promising, though will take some getting used to keys switches and layout after the Unicomp 101 customiser.

Surprisingly just plugging it in and making no changes whatsoever, the symbols are mostly in the same positions as the model m mapped to dvorak.  Due to the '7' shaped enter the \ is on the far right of the home row, and there are two 'unused' keys (to the left of the backspace, and to the left of the up arrow).

What OS are you on?

Also, how do the modifier keys work?

[ecru]

What OS are you on?

Also, how do the modifier keys work?

Linux - Debian Lenny.

Ctrl, Shift, Alt all as normal.  The 'evil empire' key is shown as 'super_L' in xev (normal I think).  The  'circling arrows with cross', 'circling arrows', and kana have no effect.  Would need to change to Japanese layout I imagine.  If you want a specific test / configuration let me know.

All the keys produce a key code so they should be mappable as needed.  I guess I will stick to the US layout and learn the positions of the symbols, particularly the upper number row.

[xsphat]

I only use Mac OS X because that's really all I know. I have the full size US version of yours, and out of the box, it ran with THE NASTY'S keys as the Opt and the Alt key as the Command (swapped from normal) but that's the only problem -- I'm just wondering if there are any other artifacts like that with the Japanese layout keyboard when ran in Mac as a US layout.

I'm thinking about sending some of my Economic Stimulus check back to Japan for a Topre 91U, but if I'm going to have a bunch of problems since I can't remap in Mac very easily, then I'd just get something else.

[xsphat]

BTW, I'm not a coder or a gamer -- I'm a writer, so really all I care about is the punctuation keys.