Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 January 2016, 21:52:59
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/store/
2023 major project update: see this post for details
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.msg3158216#msg3158216
Now available to order: F104, FSSK, F122, F15, F50, and Split Ortholinear Ergonomic
Some models are offered in both Model M style and ultra compact style cases. All cases are metal, even though they were designed to match the IBM Model M case designs of old.
2021 update / for posterity:
Still time to customize your Brand New Model F Keyboard at www.ModelFKeyboards.com !
Success! Brand New Model F Keyboards finished production and started shipping at the end of 2019. So far more than 700 F62 and F77 keyboards have shipped. The first batch of dye sublimated new Model F XT quality keycaps started shipping in Feb. 2021.
Take a look at the most recent postings in this thread for the latest updates and discussion!
The web site is a go! Time to order your Brand New Model F Keyboard! $1.3 million + in orders so far (as of early 2021)!
Also I would like to give credit to the many (mostly) buckling spring-related projects that have given me inspiration and encouragement while working on the Brand New Model F Keyboards project. Please forgive me if I missed some projects that did not come to mind:
xwhatsit - modernized Model F and Beam Spring controllers, making the new Model F's and new Beam Spring keyboards possible
wcass - custom Model F projects (flat Model F "New Buckling Spring Design" and XTant) and Model F PCB designs
pandrew - Model F controller-related projects (new controller designs, QMK, and more)
Jesse and Kaia - Keyboardio project
Lot_Lizard - Model MF project
idollar - FSSK/FEXT projects
The Input Club team - various crowdfunded projects
fohat - Model F122 layout conversion guide
SneakyRobb interview with buckling spring inventor **** Harris
older updates, 6/23/18 and prior
Please head to http://www.ModelFkeyboards.com to place your order! In general, keyboards ship out by the timestamp of your order - first in, first out!
I am updating this post using one of the fully tested prototype F77's!
Complete production status update 6-3-17 with photos and descriptions of how each part works:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/uncategorized/what-makes-up-a-model-f-keyboard-detailed-production-status-of-each-part/
SUMMARY OF EVERYTHING THIS BUY INCLUDES
* Basic keyboard models: F62, F77, Ultra Compact F62, Ultra Compact F77
* One-piece XT-style keycaps made from new molds, including Industrial SSK style blue keys - extra sets are also available separately
* Extra parts also available separately including Model F (AT) compatible barrels, flippers, cases, PCBs, inner foam, and inner assemblies
* Available layouts: ANSI: US and HHKB style with split backspace and regular non-split backspace. ISO: Vertical enter with a variety of international layout variants: Spanish, German, Nordic, French, UK, etc.
IN PRODUCTION
* Ultra compact cases
* keys
* buckling springs
PRODUCTION TO START RIGHT BEFORE ASSEMBLY IS DONE
* Boxes / outside foam packaging
FINISHED PRODUCTION
* Die cast zinc cases (powdercoating is done too - the die cast cases are all finished!)
* key molds
* barrels
* inner foam
* Inner assembly plates
* flippers
* capacitive PCBs
* compact xwhatsit controllers
* case molds
* ribbon cables (to connect controllers to capacitive PCBs)
SHIPPED TO ME
* Current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me around mid-year.
ORDERS LOCKED
* Cases and other parts have been ordered, so please no major changes!
STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Everything. I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last. Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.
F62/F77 Prototype testing, brief teardown, and sound comparisons with original IBM keyboards
F62 / F77 features:
Only new parts will be used - not New Old Stock or used part pulls from other keyboards (you can use your original IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp caps - they will be compatible)
Metal top and metal bottom case, like the original
Metal top and metal bottom inner "sandwich" plates with interlocking tabs, like the original
Model F barrels and full-size capacitive flippers, all injection molded for accuracy/durability (not 3D printed)
2 mm foam like in my original F77
Ships fully assembled at no extra charge - no further soldering will be required. You will put on the feet though!
Cork-rubber feet, plus a small selection of rubber feet (cork-rubber feet like the PC XT Model F keyboard)
Top and bottom case powdercoated in a color similar to the original "off white/beige" color, black, or similar to industrial gray (or you can pick your own color and pay extra for tooling)
New buckling springs made to original Model F spring tolerances (ideally)
Keys to be sourced from Unicomp (or you can provide your own keys). To use brand new one-piece dye sub keys instead, someone else would need to take on production of the keys.
Layouts can be adjusted at the factory, or you can adjust them later for international versions
Metal tabs attached to the top inner assembly for the Model M style spacebar stabilizer wire - no plastic pieces like in the original
Packed like a new keyboard: in two custom white EPS foam shells and in a close-fitting brown double-walled cardboard box
Fully assembled in China
10 foot monoprice USB cable with ferrite core
Extra barrels (AT-style) and capacitive flippers will be produced and made available for purchase separately (for other projects and for replacement parts)
Any other suggestions?
After everyone interested has placed their order and sent payment, please be aware that it will be several months before your order arrives.
Working Prototype photos:
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Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 28 January 2016, 21:41:00
Post by: Zapheo on Thu, 28 January 2016, 21:42:55
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 28 January 2016, 22:26:21
This leaves every other previously made versions for dead, plus this model is made for long term usage compared to most other keyboards that eventually get tossed in the bin.
You buy this for keeps and don't ever need to worry about wear and tear because this baby is made to last for decades ahead.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 28 January 2016, 22:31:18
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 28 January 2016, 22:55:17
Post by: Rewind on Thu, 28 January 2016, 22:58:13
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 January 2016, 23:21:57
Just a note for those just finding out now about the project, the main project thread was in the Interest Checks section, before this project became a group buy - over 40,000 page views on that thread and hundreds of posts! There is a lot of excitement with this project because it is the very first project to put back into production the Model F capacitive buckling spring keyboard, a strong alternative to the Cherry MX mechanical keyswitch which for a while was the only possible major mechanical switch you could build a custom keyboard with.
Now I have finally opened up orders on www.modelfkeyboards.com after collaborating for about a year with the DT, GH, reddit community and other keyboard enthusiasts to perfect the Brand New Model F keyboard project. It has been two days since the group buy started and already we have over 50 of the 235 interested DT/GH/reddit users place their order, many of them interested in reserving a specific serial number for their boards, along with many who did not sign the interest form or are not even DT/GH/reddit members and remember how good their old IBM keyboard was.
While I don't remember except looking back at the old home movies, our first family computer was the IBM PC XT (not sure which model) and its IBM Model F keyboard! It's amazing that while just about everything else in the computing world has improved exponentially, thousands of serious computer users around the world, including book authors, journalists, and programmers, still hold on to and use daily their 20+ year old IBM buckling spring keyboards that are still as robust as ever.
Unfortunately this is a limited time project at this point, not something that you can buy from web stores after the group buy ends, but I am in talks with others who are thinking about ordering a few dozen extra units to sell at a higher price once the group buy ends.
So if you want to consider ordering a brand new Model F keyboard made this year, I suggest doing so soon before the group buy ends! The prototypes are fully functional and I will be holding keyboard meetups in Manhattan for anyone interested in checking them out!
Post by: ika on Fri, 29 January 2016, 00:24:17
Post by: bocahgundul on Fri, 29 January 2016, 00:29:58
Post by: stoic-lemon on Fri, 29 January 2016, 00:32:28
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 29 January 2016, 00:33:59
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 January 2016, 06:43:23
Black is one of the most popular options from what I have seen in the orders.
Post by: Jedi on Fri, 29 January 2016, 08:15:43
Post by: mobbo on Fri, 29 January 2016, 08:24:48
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Fri, 29 January 2016, 10:12:48
Ika sorry there is no example of the black case. It will be black and will be powdercoated in the original textured powdercoating like the originals had, but just in black.
Black is one of the most popular options from what I have seen in the orders.
I was really into the thought of industrial grey, but then I remembered Snoopy's kish https://imgur.com/a/48jd1
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 29 January 2016, 10:13:02
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 29 January 2016, 11:05:34
I did a really bad job of rationing my funds for this project while it was in development. :))
Just redraw on your morgage, personal loan or credit card.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 January 2016, 16:36:13
Post by: Jedi on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:43:59
This is a good set up, instead of double tapping two of these I can order f77 now before the deadline and then an f62 in the next couple of months.
That's a very good point. I have a feeling I'll be back for more once the first one gets shipped.
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:47:24
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:48:47
Post by: romevi on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:04:22
Can't decide between classic beige and industrial grey. ??? :))
Industrial gray. Beige already existed.
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:07:01
Can't decide between classic beige and industrial grey. ??? :))
Industrial gray. Beige already existed.
Everyone get black or beige, that way you can all drool over my industrial grey.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:52:42
Unicomp offers Mac/Apple Option/Alt/Command keys which are shown installed on my new Model F keyboard here: http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/command-option-keys/
You can also put a windows key there with the old fashioned windows logo, and a right click 1U menu key on the other side's blank key - these keys are included (no extra charge) in each regular pearl/pebble printed ANSI Unicomp key set and maybe other sets as well.
Quite a few people are buying the case in another color to the one they ordered with the keyboard because you won't be able to order them after the group buy ends most likely (I have asked those with distributor contacts to reach out and see if anyone wants to order extra units to stock them in their store, but so far no responses except for some forum members who are thinking of buying extras to offer them at a premium price after the group buy ends, so that they will be available to those discovering the keyboard after the GB main round closes).
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 29 January 2016, 19:20:48
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Fri, 29 January 2016, 19:36:19
Post by: Pemdas on Fri, 29 January 2016, 20:24:08
Quite a few people are buying the case in another color to the one they ordered with the keyboard because you won't be able to order them after the group buy ends
I was actually thinking of changing my order to add on a black case cause I'm having a really hard time between the two. How would the numbering go for that? Are the serial numbers per pcb or per case?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 January 2016, 21:05:32
If you order one keyboard and one spare case, I'd expect to put an identical label on both cases so you can switch between them. Or maybe no label on the second case. Not sure yet.
Post by: Pemdas on Fri, 29 January 2016, 22:13:03
to keep things simple, serials are per product line and per full keyboard ordered - F62 is one product line and F77 is the other
If you order one keyboard and one spare case, I'd expect to put an identical label on both cases so you can switch between them. Or maybe no label on the second case. Not sure yet.
Awesome, personally I would much prefer the same label on both rather than the blank option ;)
I'll PM you with my changes when I'm sure I have every decision locked in :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 January 2016, 21:22:45
Unfortunately PayPal has locked my funds as a security precaution (?) given the $30,000+ that came in from the first few days of accepting orders.
Orders are still being accepted through PayPal without issue, so please do get in your order if you haven't already!
I am going to speak with them ASAP and try to resolve it but this could cause a hassle.
I have already fully disclosed to them the product web site, nature of the project, and the increased expected business levels.
It seems like they often release funds only after they are exposed publicly about the specific case and someone has made a noise about the issue by posting about it on a blog.
If anyone has any experience or advice dealing with PayPal or any contacts there, or can offer specific help in another way please let me know.
I don't expect this to put us off schedule though, because at the very worst if it comes down to it, I may need to cancel the PayPal funds and accept payments over credit card or check (your order is not being canceled! This is just the worst-case scenario). It will be inconvenient for everyone unfortunately if this turns out to be the case but we don't have to use PayPal to accept payment online. I'll keep everyone posted though.
So far about 25% of the interest form has paid and many have ordered more keyboards than what they put down in the form - a good thing! The web site has slowed down from the increased traffic but it is still holding up well.
Post by: ika on Sat, 30 January 2016, 22:14:57
We have our first important issue (cross-posted onto both IC and GB threads for completeness) :(
Unfortunately PayPal has locked my funds as a security precaution (?) given the $30,000+ that came in from the first few days of accepting orders.
Orders are still being accepted through PayPal without issue, so please do get in your order if you haven't already!
I am going to speak with them ASAP and try to resolve it but this could cause a hassle.
I have already fully disclosed to them the product web site, nature of the project, and the increased expected business levels.
It seems like they often release funds only after they are exposed publicly about the specific case and someone has made a noise about the issue by posting about it on a blog.
If anyone has any experience or advice dealing with PayPal or any contacts there, or can offer specific help in another way please let me know.
I don't expect this to put us off schedule though, because at the very worst if it comes down to it, I may need to cancel the PayPal funds and accept payments over credit card or check (your order is not being canceled! This is just the worst-case scenario). It will be inconvenient for everyone unfortunately if this turns out to be the case but we don't have to use PayPal to accept payment online. I'll keep everyone posted though.
So far about 25% of the interest form has paid and many have ordered more keyboards than what they put down in the form - a good thing! The web site has slowed down from the increased traffic but it is still holding up well.
Talk to radio_killah and ghostjuggernaut, they dealt with this issue when they were running GMK RGBYK. It could be a major issue.
Post by: Porsche on Sun, 31 January 2016, 04:48:48
Good to be in this GB.
Color choices make me really hard to choose :p Finally I decided to go to black.
I would like to receive F77 asap. Also I left a note in my order so please let me know.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 31 January 2016, 06:14:21
I dont know if it has been mentioned you can also get keys with 'fn' printed they would be good for those keys between ctrl and alt if they were being used as function keys.
Would like to know that as well.
Would like the standard windows key on the left (in between Control and Alt - Left side) and the other side with a single FN key (in between Control and Alt - Right side).
Ellipse please let us know if this is possible with this keyboard order or would we need to buy these two keys separately off Unicomp's website?
Post by: ctm on Sun, 31 January 2016, 08:00:14
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 31 January 2016, 12:14:45
Yes I have an example Fn key in pearl shown on the F77 keyboard on modelfkeyboards.com. You can also get Unicomp to print a pebble Fn key.
Elrick the Windows key will be included because Unicomp includes that key with their key sets. For the extra Fn key, please add 1 unit of the product "other customizations ($1 increments)" and put in a note that it is for a Fn key from Unicomp in (pearl/pebble) color.
ctm everyone who orders a key set will be getting all of the keys that Unicomp sends me (they usually send the full 104 key set). If you order an original Model F/Model M key set you'll also get all the keys that originally came from that set.
Post by: ctm on Sun, 31 January 2016, 13:35:13
Elrick the Windows key will be included because Unicomp includes that key with their key sets. For the extra Fn key, please add 1 unit of the product "other customizations ($1 increments)" and put in a note that it is for a Fn key from Unicomp in (pearl/pebble) color.Does Unicomp has fn keycap? I can't find it on their website.
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 31 January 2016, 14:58:13
Elrick the Windows key will be included because Unicomp includes that key with their key sets. For the extra Fn key, please add 1 unit of the product "other customizations ($1 increments)" and put in a note that it is for a Fn key from Unicomp in (pearl/pebble) color.Does Unicomp has fn keycap? I can't find it on their website.
See bottom row, that fn key came from unicomp.
edit: you may have to tilt your head 90 degrees.
[attach=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 31 January 2016, 14:59:49
Post by: kennardsmith on Mon, 01 February 2016, 02:22:17
Post by: bocahgundul on Mon, 01 February 2016, 02:35:13
oh my god I hadn't realized there was a HHKB layout… now to pick colors ughgo with industrial color :p
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 01 February 2016, 07:22:30
I think this project is an amazing achievement.
Post by: Limewirelord on Mon, 01 February 2016, 12:10:41
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 01 February 2016, 19:18:08
Has anyone encountered any problems or errors on the project web site? Does anyone need to pay with a credit card or check and prefers not to go through PayPal.com's guest checkout (no registration required)? Please let me know and I will look into other options.
As an update I contacted two GH members that ika recommended I contact regarding advice for PayPal and I have contacted a manager at PayPal whom some online project managers said helped them with their own frozen PayPal assets.
I have noticed a lot of people ordering extra F77 and F62 cases. I guess people want to be able to have both cases before these go out of production. After that you would need to buy a whole keyboard in another case color to get the alternate color :)
Also the black case / black keys is a popular option.
And thanks hoggy and Limewirelord! Glad you are excited. I continue to type on the brand new Industrial F77 prototype and over the past week the springs have loosened up to make them even more more closely comparable with an original Model F.
Post by: bocahgundul on Tue, 02 February 2016, 04:50:25
wow - after not even the first week of ordering, almost one-third of those who filled out the interest form have already placed their orders on ModelFkeyboards.com! We still have the rest of this month to take care of everyone else.I want to join the early bird but I don't have anymore money left for keyboard purchase and thank you ellipse for making second round for guy like me :thumb:
Has anyone encountered any problems or errors on the project web site? Does anyone need to pay with a credit card or check and prefers not to go through PayPal.com's guest checkout (no registration required)? Please let me know and I will look into other options.
As an update I contacted two GH members that ika recommended I contact regarding advice for PayPal and I have contacted a manager at PayPal whom some online project managers said helped them with their own frozen PayPal assets.
I have noticed a lot of people ordering extra F77 and F62 cases. I guess people want to be able to have both cases before these go out of production. After that you would need to buy a whole keyboard in another case color to get the alternate color :)
Also the black case / black keys is a popular option.
And thanks hoggy and Limewirelord! Glad you are excited. I continue to type on the brand new Industrial F77 prototype and over the past week the springs have loosened up to make them even more more closely comparable with an original Model F.
Post by: nickheller on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:06:41
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:41:18
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 11:49:48
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 02 February 2016, 15:56:54
Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 15:59:01
Are we supposed to be asking questions in here or the Interest Check thread?
The IC is still open? That seems redundant. I figured here as this is the official GB thread.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 16:09:01
Are we supposed to be asking questions in here or the Interest Check thread?
The IC is still open? That seems redundant. I figured here as this is the official GB thread.
yep! With far more activity than here also
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 February 2016, 16:49:14
nick I recommend a case of each color if you can't decide on one! Many are ordering a spare case or two because no one has volunteered to stock inventory. If your case powdercoating gets damaged or full of indelible ink somehow (maybe a Pilot Precise V5 leak? Yep I've had that happen before!) you will be glad you had an extra case.
romevi I recommend we keep questions specific to the group buy here (order status, discussing options, arranging shipping proxies to reduce costs) and general questions about new Model F keyboard development and features in the IC thread - like my future plans for a smaller aluminum case for the F62 and possibly the F77.
tassadarforaiur - I do not know which parts are likely to fail first in the decades to come. Assuming component longevity is similar to originals, I would suggest getting extra flippers and springs at a minimum, and maybe extra inner foam as those components wear out most during usage. I also recommend a spare Unicomp key cap set. Even PBT keys wear down and become smooth over time. This is not a guarantee, but I hope to include a few extra springs with everyone's order if there are any left over after the factory's and later my quality control checks.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 02 February 2016, 17:30:37
Assuming component longevity is similar to originals, I would suggest getting extra flippers and springs at a minimum, and maybe extra inner foam as those components wear out most during usage.
Most here won't have just this keyboard in their possession but have hundreds all waiting to be used one day. This keyboard shall be parked to the side just like an American Sportscar and only taken out once or twice a year to experience it's inputting glory that is unlike every other keyboard ever made.
This art piece shall be kept and admired each and every day, plus just knowing you have this keyboard under your roof makes life more pleasurable 8) .
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 February 2016, 21:52:22
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 03 February 2016, 00:44:50
Elrick will you not be using this keyboard to its full Industrial-strength potential every single day???
It'll be connected to one PC, like so many in the house but it'll be seldom used since I'll be mostly working off site every fortnight.
Don't worry, this baby won't be packed away forever, it'll be used between working shifts, until I arrive back home to witness it's full beauty ;) .
I'll try and convince the Mrs to use it whilst I'm away but she has her own favorite PC setup for internet shopping.
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 03 February 2016, 01:40:47
I'm getting some extra cash before the months up, so I'll be placing an order soon. :)
Is your secret to extra money drugs?
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 03 February 2016, 01:51:56
Assuming component longevity is similar to originals, I would suggest getting extra flippers and springs at a minimum, and maybe extra inner foam as those components wear out most during usage.
Most here won't have just this keyboard in their possession but have hundreds all waiting to be used one day. This keyboard shall be parked to the side just like an American Sportscar and only taken out once or twice a year to experience it's inputting glory that is unlike every other keyboard ever made.
This art piece shall be kept and admired each and every day, plus just knowing you have this keyboard under your roof makes life more pleasurable 8) .
Elrick will you not be using this keyboard to its full Industrial-strength potential every single day??? It should be able to withstand daily usage for a few decades!
Haha speak for yourself Elrick, my F62 is gonna be my daily driver at home for years to come, I will probably rotate it with my 87u 55g once in a while just because I love the 55g topre feels too. After seeing all the F77 pics I wish I had extra finances to get one of those as well, they are much nicer then I originally thought.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 03 February 2016, 04:33:45
After seeing all the F77 pics I wish I had extra finances to get one of those as well, they are much nicer then I originally thought.
The F77 is the ONLY Model-F to buy.
You youngsters always after smaller and smaller keyboards, just don't get that type of mentality any more ......... :p
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 03 February 2016, 10:16:48
F77 is the way to go here.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 03 February 2016, 13:47:34
After seeing all the F77 pics I wish I had extra finances to get one of those as well, they are much nicer then I originally thought.
The F77 is the ONLY Model-F to buy.
You youngsters always after smaller and smaller keyboards, just don't get that type of mentality any more ......... :p
For once I agree with Elrick. :))
F77 is the way to go here.
Damn guys why are you doing this to me :) Wallethack living up to its name :)) Maybe I can get enough together to get one on the later round.
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 04 February 2016, 02:42:37
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 04 February 2016, 04:26:23
Damn guys why are you doing this to me :) Wallethack living up to its name :)) Maybe I can get enough together to get one on the later round.
It's the nature of Group Buys and this baby isn't going to be available ALWAYS. Ellipse is right that some scumbags will buy up big here and then put it on Ebay for $1600USD each, later on.
Best time to buy this rare keyboard is NOW so don'rt wait for any fantasy price drops because it won't happen. Once all the hardware is bought there is no re-do on all the gear later on down the track, 2016 is the last and only year you'll get to own a BRAND NEW Model-F Keyboard.
Would rather spend my money on this keyboard than get another Cherry MX or Thorpie model.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 04 February 2016, 04:49:47
Damn guys why are you doing this to me :) Wallethack living up to its name :)) Maybe I can get enough together to get one on the later round.
It's the nature of Group Buys and this baby isn't going to be available ALWAYS. Ellipse is right that some scumbags will buy up big here and then put it on Ebay for $1600USD each, later on.
Best time to buy this rare keyboard is NOW so don'rt wait for any fantasy price drops because it won't happen. Once all the hardware is bought there is no re-do on all the gear later on down the track, 2016 is the last and only year you'll get to own a BRAND NEW Model-F Keyboard.
Would rather spend my money on this keyboard than get another Cherry MX or Thorpie model.
Agree with everything you just said, I wasn't planning on buying any more keyboards until this came along :)) I just mean buy on the later ordering round and not the early bird, that will give me a few months to try get some cash together and hopefully see an improvement in my exchange rate. I don't expect any of these to be available after this buy at anything close to reasonable prices.
Post by: Muramasa on Thu, 04 February 2016, 08:44:38
Thanks
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 04 February 2016, 12:55:13
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 04 February 2016, 13:23:16
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 04 February 2016, 13:36:14
Just a quick question about the F62 options, Color: Industrial Gray, Is this the same case color as the Gray F77 posted here?
Thanks
Yes it is although that F77 is a prototype and the colour might still be tweaked slightly.
Post by: Vittra on Thu, 04 February 2016, 14:04:50
I'm currently researching exactly what I want, but it will be a F77 no doubt.
Post by: dgreekstallion on Thu, 04 February 2016, 15:56:48
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 February 2016, 19:47:29
Muramasa the gray will be similar to the IBM Industrial SSK gray, which in my view is a greenish gray. The prototype colors will not be exactly the same as the production colors.
But yes you can get any of the 3 colors (gray, off-white, black) on either of the F62 and F77 keyboards.
hashbaz the senior exec has not been willing to help so far. I have escalated the issue to their Executive Escalations team.
AKmalamute do not worry - PayPal has not shut off order acceptance. I hope to resolve this issue ASAP.
I have already been contacted by some sites offering to review the keyboard and interview me regarding the project!
Also there are two German tech news sites with articles up already. It's pretty clear by the user comments that they did not read the web site and just looked at the photo on the web site of an old-style looking keyboard and saw the price and made their remarks only based on that :(
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Tastaturen-Hardware-255538/News/IBM-Model-F-Neuauflage-kaufen-1185232/
http://www.computerbase.de/2016-02/mechanische-tastatur-ibm-model-f-wird-ab-325-us-dollar-erneut-produziert/
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 05 February 2016, 05:32:01
Also there are two German tech news sites with articles up already. It's pretty clear by the user comments that they did not read the web site and just looked at the photo on the web site of an old-style looking keyboard and saw the price and made their remarks only based on that :(
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Tastaturen-Hardware-255538/News/IBM-Model-F-Neuauflage-kaufen-1185232/ (http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Tastaturen-Hardware-255538/News/IBM-Model-F-Neuauflage-kaufen-1185232/)
http://www.computerbase.de/2016-02/mechanische-tastatur-ibm-model-f-wird-ab-325-us-dollar-erneut-produziert/ (http://www.computerbase.de/2016-02/mechanische-tastatur-ibm-model-f-wird-ab-325-us-dollar-erneut-produziert/)
Don't worry, it's info for morons who know nothing about keyboards.
Unfortunately a lot of these sites exist today pretending they know what they are talking about but what's worse, they draw their own faulty conclusions from a couple of pics. Will this mean that Germans have lost their capacity to know anything about model-F keyboards or are they so far up themselves in regards to their own CherryMX technology, that nothing else exists for them?
You can only draw your own conclusions here........ ;D
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 February 2016, 06:51:06
Post by: dgreekstallion on Fri, 05 February 2016, 08:47:39
Post by: dgreekstallion on Fri, 05 February 2016, 08:53:28
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 05 February 2016, 08:54:42
Will you be releasing any of the CAD work you've put into these in case someone needs to know the key separation or back-plate curvature for a maybe Model FErgoDox? :P
Post by: Glod on Fri, 05 February 2016, 17:16:45
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 February 2016, 20:15:53
I know that others are saying they are selling their more easily obtainable keyboards for an F62/F77.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 05 February 2016, 21:30:43
Glod why resist :) ? Model F keyboards tend to hold up their value well over time, meaning if your situation changes down the line you can always sell this later after the group buy ends - you may even get more than what you paid for it depending on demand.
So true, you should see the really crazy price for a standard Kmac Mini which hits easily over $700USD+ but an Ellipse Model-F keyboard will go into the four figure territory :thumb: .
Post by: Michael on Fri, 05 February 2016, 22:11:28
Post by: naasfu on Fri, 05 February 2016, 22:24:02
So is the F62 not available in industrial grey?
there should be a dropdown with options for industrial grey, beige and black:
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-model-f-keyboard-kishsaver/
maybe try reloading, since i think the dropdown didn't appear for me earlier on when i first visited that page.
Post by: Muramasa on Sat, 06 February 2016, 10:28:17
What will be the plan for spare parts once the GB is complete? is the idea to buy spares now or do you think you will be selling then after the GB?
Thanks.
Post by: Michael on Sat, 06 February 2016, 10:59:03
So is the F62 not available in industrial grey?
there should be a dropdown with options for industrial grey, beige and black:
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-model-f-keyboard-kishsaver/ (http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-model-f-keyboard-kishsaver/)
maybe try reloading, since i think the dropdown didn't appear for me earlier on when i first visited that page.
Weird, must be a CSS/html issue. I don't see drop-down arrows. Unless the UI is supposed to be like that?
(http://i.imgur.com/iKhxBps.jpg)
Post by: Vittra on Sat, 06 February 2016, 11:06:50
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 06 February 2016, 11:22:52
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 February 2016, 15:26:57
Yes Bro Caps you can order F62 and F77 in Industrial Grey, Off-white, or black.
Mura there is expected to be no spare parts availability after the GB ends as I don't want to hold lots of inventory. If you want something I recommend ordering it during the GB!
Post by: Jedi on Sat, 06 February 2016, 17:04:50
I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sat, 06 February 2016, 18:13:32
Ellipse, why the extras, I mean is this something we really should be looking at too? I sometimes jump on a group buy when options that I didn't really know that I needed or wanted were easily available and then its way too late for me to do anything about it. I mean the extra case is a given even the paper thank you and the extra box with styrofoam. I'm referring to the flippers and plastics and springs etc. I mean are these things you should be really encouraging us to buy to ensure we have spare parts assuming we use the keyboard as our everyday board? I would like to know what you would buy or have extra on hand (especially since you have had the chance to use the new boards for quite awhile).I believe the extras are aimed at people with restoration projects for other model f's. As it stands the only option is to cannibalize another model f if you are missing parts for one. By listing them separately people can order them for existing boards.
I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks
Post by: iss on Sat, 06 February 2016, 19:06:27
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 February 2016, 19:08:11
If you order your keyboard and then decide later you want extra parts, that is ok - you can place an additional order as late as 6/30 for the spare parts.
You could even buy a whole bunch of spares in anticipation of future projects that other people decide on.
I am hoping that someone will volunteer to order a few thousand spare barrels and flippers to sell later on for future community projects. Some people have expressed interest but I have no volunteers just yet.
My recommendation is to buy spare inside foam and spare flippers and springs. This is not finalized but I do expect to include some leftover springs with everyone's order because springs may wear out and the foam may become less spongy over time- no one knows. I expect to make the springs with some of the finest quality Japanese steel (the specific variant is actually advertised as piano wire!).
Part of the quality control of this project will be making sure all of the springs buckle successfully and reliably. I expect to test every keyboard before mailing it. This is why I have offered the option to pay a little more for an early serial and then I will put you ahead of the line.
iss the AT barrels are the ones being used for this project and they have the notch on the right side. The XT barrels have the "pin" and are used in XT style keyboards.
Post by: Quackles on Sun, 07 February 2016, 04:41:27
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 07 February 2016, 04:43:31
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
I ordered an f77 and will order an f62 in a few months, its just a once in a lifetime oppertunity
Post by: Quackles on Sun, 07 February 2016, 04:45:21
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
I ordered an f77 and will order an f62 in a few months, its just a once in a lifetime oppertunity
Of course you have! Your SSK was amazing when I saw it (I was jealous of it!), no surprise you are keen on this :P
Going to have a night to think about it and see what to do.
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 07 February 2016, 04:48:22
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
I ordered an f77 and will order an f62 in a few months, its just a once in a lifetime oppertunity
Of course you have! Your SSK was amazing when I saw it (I was jealous of it!), no surprise you are keen on this :P
Going to have a night to think about it and see what to do.
Haha i ended up getting a hhkb shortly after that also. Gotta catch them all, at least if you got one you probebly wouldn't have much trouble selling it if you had a change of mind :thumb:
Post by: romevi on Sun, 07 February 2016, 10:12:36
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
Not sure what the extra costs, but I can imagine that, once the GB ends, getting one of these will be more than directly from Ellipse now.
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 07 February 2016, 10:24:31
VERY excited!
:-)
Thank you again to @Ellipse!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 07 February 2016, 15:17:13
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 07 February 2016, 15:59:01
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 07 February 2016, 16:01:11
alright, got my second order in... should be all set now xD!!!
You get one of each?
Or multiple of something?
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Mon, 08 February 2016, 13:12:31
just the 62 with parts for both shift setups and two cases!!!alright, got my second order in... should be all set now xD!!!
You get one of each?
Or multiple of something?
Post by: ctm on Mon, 08 February 2016, 19:16:44
My recommendation is to buy spare inside foam and spare flippers and springs. This is not finalized but I do expect to include some leftover springs with everyone's order because springs may wear out and the foam may become less spongy over time- no one knows.Do you expect the foam used in this production to age like those in original Model F? Even if I buy an extra set of foam now, will they age at the same rate as the one in keyboard, so they are not usable when I need them? (I don't know much about foam)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 February 2016, 17:00:22
I do recommend getting some extra foam with your order. With the new foam I believe we have to worry more about loss of elasticity from it staying compressed inside the keyboard and not from general disintegration like the original foam. The original foam reminded me of the foam used in 8 track tapes, almost all of which has disintegrated just with time and not as much due to constant pressure.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Tue, 09 February 2016, 18:52:59
Ellipse, there is guaranteed to be a round 2 right?
Post by: romevi on Tue, 09 February 2016, 19:24:53
I really want to get in on this now but I think I am going to wait until round 2 when I have more money at my disposal.
Ellipse, there is guaranteed to be a round 2 right?
Yup. The first round is for early birdies, us keyboard nerds. The second round will open right after and be open for ever and ever and ever. Or end of June of this year. Whichever comes first.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 February 2016, 19:33:28
PayPal approves my case!
Good news - I just called PayPal again today and they said they approved my case and will release the funds shortly.
So it is looking like the PayPal issue has been resolved and will not pose any potential problems for this project going forward! My funds were frozen as a security precaution about a week or so ago.
The orders continue coming in and we still have 3 weeks left in the early bird round! In the first week or so we passed over $40,000 worth of orders (including shipping costs).
Yes imtootallforthis there will definitely be a second round ending 6/30/16 with expected shipping in August/September.
I recommend getting in the early round if it is at all possible for you - I know I wouldn't like waiting an extra 4 months for something to arrive in the mail!
One note that the early bird is not an inferior or "beta" version - it is the full version with the same specifications as the regular round. The "beta" versions were the two prototypes which came out great and fully functional (as shown in the YouTube video posted earlier) and are just getting some small adjustments to make them perfect (all of these adjustments will go into the early bird production units and the regular round units).
Here's the current approximate order breakdown:
64 United States
7 United Kingdom
6 Australia
3 Japan
3 Sweden
2 Canada
2 Netherlands
2 Korea, Republic of
1 Poland
1 Spain
1 Germany
1 New Zealand
1 Viet Nam
1 France
1 Austria
1 Hong Kong
1 South Africa
1 Indonesia
1 Ireland
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Tue, 09 February 2016, 20:18:22
I really want to get in on this now but I think I am going to wait until round 2 when I have more money at my disposal.
Ellipse, there is guaranteed to be a round 2 right?
Yup. The first round is for early birdies, us keyboard nerds. The second round will open right after and be open for ever and ever and ever. Or end of June of this year. Whichever comes first.
Hey I am just a broke keyboard nerd! I will justify it as a graduation present to myself when I order one in round 2.
Post by: joneslee85 on Tue, 09 February 2016, 22:41:10
I think this is the most expensive groupbuy in the history of GH
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 10 February 2016, 03:40:22
Post by: romevi on Wed, 10 February 2016, 11:26:38
I think this is the most expensive groupbuy in the history of GH
And almost most important. Reviving one of the most revered vintage keyboards with new parts by a single person--a feat to be remembered.
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 10 February 2016, 15:03:59
...or for the wiki
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Wed, 10 February 2016, 15:15:13
Indeed, this is one for the history books.Wiki you say?
...or for the wiki
Post by: 3K on Wed, 10 February 2016, 16:12:04
Post by: Quackles on Wed, 10 February 2016, 17:06:30
I have not placed my order yet. Still deciding on options...
Same! I don't know whether to go industrial grey or black. I'm decided on the F77 though.
Post by: bocahgundul on Wed, 10 February 2016, 17:27:15
I am looking forward to receiving my orders.Do you know the lz fe GB? That is the most expensive GB for keyboard that I know.
I think this is the most expensive groupbuy in the history of GH
Post by: cjhard on Thu, 11 February 2016, 09:42:20
Is ISO Enter still a stepped key?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 February 2016, 18:47:36
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 12 February 2016, 15:26:49
Beige F62 w/ ISO blanks and the screwy bumpers. I'll probably swing back for spare parts after the Feb 29 order ending.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 12 February 2016, 19:32:58
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 12 February 2016, 19:55:13
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 February 2016, 22:37:37
We have crossed $47,000 in orders (including shipping) after the first ~2 weeks!
Glod-in your experience what has gone wrong with your previous group buy experiences? So I can try to avoid these issues.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Fri, 12 February 2016, 23:43:24
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 13 February 2016, 01:24:32
I am pretty excited about this, I joined in for a f77, most expensive single purchase since my GON. It's got me cautiously optimistic though, bad group buy experiences
Just as long as you DON'T see anyone by the name of "Kin25" involved anywhere within this Group Buy, then you have nothing to fear 8) .
Post by: Glod on Sat, 13 February 2016, 14:34:03
Post by: hashbaz on Sat, 13 February 2016, 15:15:43
So I am curious - who is waiting until the final round to place an order? I'll make a note of it so I won't send you a reminder email the last week of the early bird round. (cross post of interest to both IC and GB threads)
We have crossed $47,000 in orders (including shipping) after the first ~2 weeks!
Glod-in your experience what has gone wrong with your previous group buy experiences? So I can try to avoid these issues.
I am still in for the early round and will be chipping in a tooling fee as promised. Just waiting for the Paypal thing to fully clear out. Are we there yet?
Post by: Ludovician on Sat, 13 February 2016, 15:17:36
hashbaz, the paypal issue is cleared up.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 17:16:29
As I mentioned before, I'd like to set up a public meeting for anyone who wants to try out the Brand New Kishsaver F62/Industrial F77 keyboards in person in Manhattan. I also invited two professional tech news writers to stop by and maybe even do a quick first look review (they are interviewing me on the subject of this project).
Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?
I was thinking Thursdays in the early evening, so how about Thursday 2/25 at 7 PM? I think Mondays, Fridays, and weekends are too busy for most people.
Can anyone volunteer a venue to host the meetup? Otherwise we can just meet in one of those indoor Privately Owned Public Spaces in the city.
I'd also invite attendees to bring their own keyboards for comparison if interested.
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 14 February 2016, 18:35:40
hashbaz, the paypal issue is cleared up.
Ellipse, can you confirm this? Has your paypal account been unencumbered?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:01:18
I reported a few days ago that they approved me to continue using PayPal and that they would release my funds.
A new update: Unfortunately the PayPal agent I spoke with was not forthright - the one I spoke to a few days ago said my case was approved and the funds would be released "soon." Recently I spoke with another agent and he said that I would have to ship the goods before the funds are released, which I have agreed to do. This will not be a problem for me. The keyboards should ship in April/May, not too long a wait.
I have contributed and will continue contributing my own funds to production because I believe that Model F's are the best keyboard for those who want the best typing experience. It is fine if the funds to cover these expenses are paid back when the keyboards ship.
To eliminate PayPal for this project and prevent all the future funds from being frozen until they ship, I have applied for a merchant account and expect to use that in a week or so - they negotiate the reserve amount (if any) ahead of time so that all funds will not be frozen. I will still accept PayPal though if someone insists on it.
Post by: aznairjordan on Sun, 14 February 2016, 19:07:00
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:01:29
Speaking of crowd funding, maybe in hindsight it would have been better to just go with Kickstarter, etc. They take a small cut up front, but this is literally their business model..
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:11:22
hashbaz yes PayPal is no longer a potential issue. Everyone please place an order if you want one of these keyboards!
I reported a few days ago that they approved me to continue using PayPal and that they would release my funds.
A new update: Unfortunately the PayPal agent I spoke with was not forthright - the one I spoke to a few days ago said my case was approved and the funds would be released "soon." Recently I spoke with another agent and he said that I would have to ship the goods before the funds are released, which I have agreed to do. This will not be a problem for me. The keyboards should ship in April/May, not too long a wait.
I have contributed and will continue contributing my own funds to production because I believe that Model F's are the best keyboard for those who want the best typing experience. It is fine if the funds to cover these expenses are paid back when the keyboards ship.
To eliminate PayPal for this project and prevent all the future funds from being frozen until they ship, I have applied for a merchant account and expect to use that in a week or so - they negotiate the reserve amount (if any) ahead of time so that all funds will not be frozen. I will still accept PayPal though if someone insists on it.
Thanks for the update. What is a merchant account?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:24:38
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:54:36
Also I don't think Kickstarter easily allows all of the dozens of possible combinations and accessories so that's why I chose to build my own site for this project - much easier than manual tracking of options for every order.
Last I checked we passed $49,000 in sales (with shipping charges)!
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 14 February 2016, 20:57:29
I have no problem with using a direct merchant account. It's a shame PayPal can't act like a normal money processing system. I'm not sure why they always want to stick their nose in on these types of crowd funded projects.
Speaking of crowd funding, maybe in hindsight it would have been better to just go with Kickstarter, etc. They take a small cut up front, but this is literally their business model..
Paypal are just doing what is in the interests of their buisness as well as the customer. What if there was someone who organised and collected thousands of dollars for a group buy which that person had no intention of actually sending the product. That person pulls the funds out and dissapears what next? Paypal refund everyones money out of their own accounts, sure this has probebly happened in the past but it is just the sort of thing they are trying to prevent. They just do it in a way that limits the financial impact to their profit, if they decide to go into damage control after an event. This has the other desired effect of trying to keep people using paypal if something like that happens by offering some protection. There is also the side that a large sum of money may be raised and intended for illegal activites and this way there is time for it to be identified as such.
Of course we take it personally but it is just the way paypal is.
PS thanks so much Ellipse for your commitment to this project, it is truely amazimg.
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 14 February 2016, 21:07:19
Yep that's right techno. Kickstarter does take 5% though (an extra $15 or so per keyboard). With a merchant account I just have to pay the credit card fees which is a few percentage points and a few hundred in upfront fees, but no Kickstarter fee.
Also I don't think Kickstarter easily allows all of the dozens of possible combinations and accessories so that's why I chose to build my own site for this project - much easier than manual tracking of options for every order.
Last I checked we passed $49,000 in sales (with shipping charges)!
You've put five figures into the project, and Paypal ties up another five figures, and now you're agreeing to ship the product against your own cash and be paid back when it's ready.
You are literally setting the benchmark for how we judge group buys. "Oh yeah, it's great, but he's far from topping Ellipse!"
What skills do I require to break into a career in your day job?
Post by: atlas3686 on Mon, 15 February 2016, 00:25:55
hashbaz yes PayPal is no longer a potential issue. Everyone please place an order if you want one of these keyboards!
I reported a few days ago that they approved me to continue using PayPal and that they would release my funds.
A new update: Unfortunately the PayPal agent I spoke with was not forthright - the one I spoke to a few days ago said my case was approved and the funds would be released "soon." Recently I spoke with another agent and he said that I would have to ship the goods before the funds are released, which I have agreed to do. This will not be a problem for me. The keyboards should ship in April/May, not too long a wait.
I have contributed and will continue contributing my own funds to production because I believe that Model F's are the best keyboard for those who want the best typing experience. It is fine if the funds to cover these expenses are paid back when the keyboards ship.
To eliminate PayPal for this project and prevent all the future funds from being frozen until they ship, I have applied for a merchant account and expect to use that in a week or so - they negotiate the reserve amount (if any) ahead of time so that all funds will not be frozen. I will still accept PayPal though if someone insists on it.
Jeez Ellipse that is an epic amount of money to front the project all the way till shipment! Hope all goes well and thank you for the dedication.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 February 2016, 19:30:55
Everyone who orders before the end of the month receives an early bird keyboard - you don't have to pay extra thanks to the early bird tooling volunteers.
We just crossed the $51,000 mark! Now there are at least two well-known individuals in the tech world who have bought one of these F77/F62 keyboards!
A few days ago DT user bubblebobbler posted that he helped in getting Minecraft founder "Notch" to order a keyboard! And the second individual has his own wikipedia page and is a major innovator who started in the early days of the internet.
Post by: ctm on Tue, 16 February 2016, 20:08:50
Thanks cjhard and atlas. We are at the mid point of the group buy right now and have just two weeks left for everyone to get in their early bird orders!Wow that's super cool! I think Notch is a buckling spring fan because he uses a Model M.
Everyone who orders before the end of the month receives an early bird keyboard - you don't have to pay extra thanks to the early bird tooling volunteers.
We just crossed the $51,000 mark! Now there are at least two well-known individuals in the tech world who have bought one of these F77/F62 keyboards!
A few days ago DT user bubblebobbler posted that he helped in getting Minecraft founder "Notch" to order a keyboard! And the second individual has his own wikipedia page and is a major innovator who started in the early days of the internet.
Post by: henz on Wed, 17 February 2016, 02:14:55
Post by: romevi on Wed, 17 February 2016, 10:05:07
Thanks cjhard and atlas. We are at the mid point of the group buy right now and have just two weeks left for everyone to get in their early bird orders!Wow that's super cool! I think Notch is a buckling spring fan because he uses a Model M.
Everyone who orders before the end of the month receives an early bird keyboard - you don't have to pay extra thanks to the early bird tooling volunteers.
We just crossed the $51,000 mark! Now there are at least two well-known individuals in the tech world who have bought one of these F77/F62 keyboards!
A few days ago DT user bubblebobbler posted that he helped in getting Minecraft founder "Notch" to order a keyboard! And the second individual has his own wikipedia page and is a major innovator who started in the early days of the internet.
I remember back when he was still working on Minecraft and it was getting its ground that the first upgrades he did, besides his main specs, were getting Unicomps for everyone.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 17 February 2016, 11:07:50
Well, I can dream, anyway.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 February 2016, 20:59:53
Post by: romevi on Wed, 17 February 2016, 21:18:58
romevi that is interesting. What a great office that allows buckling spring keyboards! Imagine the sound of lots of buckling springs is probably how many 1980s offices sounded!
Yeah, he loved the original buckling springs! At the time I think it was only a handful of people working on the game, so I'm sure it didn't get too loud!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 February 2016, 19:17:00
Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?
I was thinking Thursdays in the early evening, so how about Thursday 2/25 at 7 PM? I think Mondays, Fridays, and weekends are too busy for most people.
I'd also invite attendees to bring their own keyboards for comparison if interested.
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 18 February 2016, 22:06:18
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 19 February 2016, 16:03:37
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 19 February 2016, 17:06:55
Photoelectric-yes they will be similar to the originals. No two Model F's are the same though so it won't match exactly any specific Model F you've tried. If you go to modelfkeyboards.com you can see a comparison video with typing tests and sound. The key force is the same as the originals. Reviews of production units from the first round won't be available until April/May at the earliest, so if you're waiting until then, you won't get your keyboard until August/September (the final round closes 6/30). The two prototypes are of excellent quality and functionality but they are being adjusted before the first production round.
Well that's good to know it closes on 6/30! I can now justify this as a birthday present too!
Post by: ctm on Sat, 20 February 2016, 20:06:39
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 February 2016, 11:07:11
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 February 2016, 19:54:43
I am thinking of allowing people to order the smaller case even though a prototype is not yet in hand, so you can get the small case in time for the early bird round. Or you can always order the smaller case in the final round, after prototypes have been photographed.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 February 2016, 23:09:27
The final round closes 6/30/16 but you would need to wait until August/September for them to ship :(
130 F62 / F77 keyboards ordered - $58,000 total so far (including shipping)!
Here's the current case color breakdown among the orders (some orders are for extra cases - 11 extra cases have been ordered so far):
41: Off-white/beige
64: Industrial gray
33: Black
3: Other
Interestingly only 17 black unprinted key sets have been ordered, but 33 black cases were ordered - I would have thought more black unprinted sets would have been ordered given the number of black cases people are getting.
Post by: riotonthebay on Mon, 22 February 2016, 23:18:27
Post by: CoolGrayAJ on Tue, 23 February 2016, 01:13:27
Post by: Ludovician on Tue, 23 February 2016, 01:24:10
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 23 February 2016, 14:14:50
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 23 February 2016, 14:16:34
I'm actually really curious about the "Other" color option as well. Can I get this in either a Tiffany Blue or a Pastel Pink?
If I didn't get my 6019284 in jdcarpurple, I would've gotten one of those two colors :))
Post by: CoolGrayAJ on Tue, 23 February 2016, 14:26:16
I'm actually really curious about the "Other" color option as well. Can I get this in either a Tiffany Blue or a Pastel Pink?
If I didn't get my 6019284 in jdcarpurple, I would've gotten one of those two colors :))
Great mind think in hypebeast colorways. Or something like that.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 February 2016, 15:32:27
Yes you can get a custom color for about $100 extra for tooling. Just specify the Pantone color.
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 23 February 2016, 15:35:48
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 23 February 2016, 18:56:32
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 February 2016, 19:44:08
If I missed any please post the missing Pantone color!
PANTONE 17-4014 TPX Titanium gray
Silver gray
Pantone true red 19-1664
champagne gold
Gold
crimson red
olive/ drab green
turquoise
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 24 February 2016, 17:48:30
Just 5 days left to place an order and get your keyboard in April/May - otherwise you'd need to wait until August/September for them to ship with the final round! A note that both rounds will feature the exact same items - I have made modifications to the fully assembled/functional prototype F62 and F77 keyboards and the designs will be the same for both rounds. The design is fully tested as I've been typing on my F62 and F77 prototypes for 5-6 weeks already (including as I type this post!).
I received a message from the mods today and need to remind everyone to minimize cross-posting on the GB and IC threads, though I know I am cross-posting on both threads for this update ;)
I am keeping the IC thread open for ongoing discussion of Model F production, including the small case designs and renderings.
Please put all other questions related to the group buy in the GB thread, including discussion about order options, colors, bumpers, shipping, etc.
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 26 February 2016, 13:30:22
Post by: A-train on Fri, 26 February 2016, 16:10:59
Post by: Cods on Fri, 26 February 2016, 16:46:59
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:44:59
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 27 February 2016, 23:08:23
Thanks! We just crossed $65,000 in orders for the F62/F77 group buy (including shipping)!
When those that know about the Model F Legend lift their hands to own this unique keyboard, the whole internet will witness the greatest comeback of a long forgotten keyboard switch.
Long live the Model-F because it will be known as a true Phoenix, rising out of it's long slumber within the burnt wasteland of our consciousness.
Post by: U47 on Mon, 29 February 2016, 12:11:41
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Mon, 29 February 2016, 12:51:33
I blame Bro as I won some of his sweet BS caps and had nowhere to put them :))
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:40:06
In for an F62 and an F77! Hope I'm under the wire for the first run.
Same. :thumb:
Post by: axtran on Mon, 29 February 2016, 18:06:05
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 29 February 2016, 22:26:35
$77,000+ in total orders (including shipping costs) so far! This is shaping up to be a sizable project.
I reviewed all the orders that came in up to now and we are just waiting on 3 early bird tooling volunteers. All the others are good to go.
I reached out to my factory contacts with pages of notes, instructions and questions in preparation for the production process and they are still looking into everything - I am waiting on their thorough reply that addresses everything.
The expected timeline from here is that I will be sending final payments for the remaining tooling and mold costs this week, then the factory will go into preparation for production shortly after they get back to me.
We have already gone through Preparations A through G, and now we have the next one up :)
While I can't guarantee that late orders will be included in the early bird round, I will do my best to include everyone even if you are a little late - everyone can have a week or two more if you'd like but I want to finalize things ASAP once the factory is ready. I want to keep things on time so that these early bird orders ship before the end of May.
Post by: Jedi on Mon, 29 February 2016, 23:32:47
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Mon, 29 February 2016, 23:43:22
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:31:14
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:35:43
With 180 keyboards ordered in the past month (over $77,000 in orders including shipping costs!) I have decided to proceed with producing my own IBM XT quality, one-piece Model M/Model F compatible key caps for most orders from this project, including black unprinted keys. Custom colors and APL sets will likely be Unicomp made.
I will also be making the short right shift/caps lock key mold non-stepped as has been strongly requested from the beginning (of course stepped caps lock keys can be put in place of non-stepped keys).
As the factory takes care of the remaining pre-production things, I will try to accommodate the late orders into the early bird round, but no guarantees!
Please keep keycap discussion on the IC thread so that there is no overlap on the threads.
Any questions about changing or discussing your orders please keep them on this thread.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 03 March 2016, 18:52:13
Group Buy update:
With 180 keyboards ordered in the past month (over $77,000 in orders including shipping costs!) I have decided to proceed with producing my own IBM XT quality, one-piece Model M/Model F compatible key caps for most orders from this project, including black unprinted keys. Custom colors and APL sets will likely be Unicomp made.
I will also be making the short right shift/caps lock key mold non-stepped as has been strongly requested from the beginning (of course stepped caps lock keys can be put in place of non-stepped keys).
As the factory takes care of the remaining pre-production things, I will try to accommodate the late orders into the early bird round, but no guarantees!
Please keep keycap discussion on the IC thread so that there is no overlap on the threads.
Any questions about changing or discussing your orders please keep them on this thread.
Wow, thats great news!
Non-stepped caps will be perfect for the HHKB layouts! :D
Post by: romevi on Thu, 03 March 2016, 21:06:18
Group Buy update:
With 180 keyboards ordered in the past month (over $77,000 in orders including shipping costs!) I have decided to proceed with producing my own IBM XT quality, one-piece Model M/Model F compatible key caps for most orders from this project, including black unprinted keys. Custom colors and APL sets will likely be Unicomp made.
I will also be making the short right shift/caps lock key mold non-stepped as has been strongly requested from the beginning (of course stepped caps lock keys can be put in place of non-stepped keys).
As the factory takes care of the remaining pre-production things, I will try to accommodate the late orders into the early bird round, but no guarantees!
Please keep keycap discussion on the IC thread so that there is no overlap on the threads.
Any questions about changing or discussing your orders please keep them on this thread.
Great news! Very excited about the new caps, but mostly for the small right Shift!
Post by: axtran on Thu, 03 March 2016, 21:43:24
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 04 March 2016, 20:44:26
It's almost unreal that we are up to $78,000 in orders (including shipping charges) after a little over one month!
Ordering the case molds has been delayed until next week - the factory needed some more time unfortunately.
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 05 March 2016, 04:16:35
Good news - I have finally switched over to a merchant account! Everything is now set up on the web site, including SSL for the checkout page. I went with one of the most popular payment processors, Authorize.net (over 400,000 merchant customers including eBay, shopify, and BigCommerce). If you are planning on a future order and are unable to pay by credit or debit card, PayPal will still be an option - just PM me your shopping cart contents when ready to order.
It's almost unreal that we are up to $78,000 in orders (including shipping charges) after a little over one month!
You're the BIG believer in these Model-Fs and your enthusiasm has caught everyone else out there and that even includes newbs who have never heard of Buckling Spring let alone Model-F keyboards.
Ellipse has brought back the excitement for these babies and it was about time already, when we were nearly drowning in CherryMX keyboards all over the planet.
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 08 March 2016, 08:04:47
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 08 March 2016, 16:36:58
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 09 March 2016, 03:40:55
Yes that's a great article that Brian wrote for Hackaday regarding this project! He reached out to me and interviewed me on the project.
Nice! I saw the title and I was like psshhhh unless it's a model F they wrong! Was very pleasantly surprised :)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 09 March 2016, 20:38:41
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 March 2016, 23:14:22
Due to these delays we are now looking at these to ship towards the end of the estimated April/May timeframe for the early birds. The good thing is any latecomers still have some time to get into the early bird round, at least until early next week.
We are at 183 keyboards ordered in the first 6 weeks and have passed $80,000 in orders (including shipping costs)! The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
Post by: Booper on Fri, 11 March 2016, 23:32:49
Great work ellipse! <3
Post by: user 18 on Sat, 12 March 2016, 00:15:08
GB update: I am still taking orders for the early bird round and am hoping that the factory takes care of all the pre-production work as soon as possible.
Due to these delays we are now looking at these to ship towards the end of the estimated April/May timeframe for the early birds. The good thing is any latecomers still have some time to get into the early bird round, at least until early next week.
We are at 183 keyboards ordered in the first 6 weeks and have passed $80,000 in orders (including shipping costs)! The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
When will the early bird round end?
Post by: Air tree on Sat, 12 March 2016, 00:51:59
And really good news on the keycaps! I'm definitely going to get a split shift now, I just didn't like the idea of a stepped shift at first, but now I'm for sure. :D
Post by: Atredl on Sat, 12 March 2016, 01:58:33
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 12 March 2016, 03:36:30
The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
Was there any doubt of the Great F77 beating that deformed, smaller layout ;D ?
Post by: Atredl on Sat, 12 March 2016, 05:01:31
The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
Was there any doubt of the Great F77 beating that deformed, smaller layout ;D ?
Well you can as good as count another F62 for me. I love me some 60% :)
Post by: Jedi on Sat, 12 March 2016, 09:17:06
Please let us know anything we need to do to get in on keycaps (I already upgraded my set with my order but would be interested in trying out the new caps when it all gets sorted out). Custom keyboard, custom colors, custom keycaps, is there really any other reason stopping others from getting in already??? :cool:
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 12 March 2016, 23:16:52
Post by: Vizir on Sun, 13 March 2016, 09:37:20
Let's see when Ellipse is done working things out.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 15 March 2016, 19:20:18
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 March 2016, 18:04:43
If you are looking for a custom color it will be $200 per color for an unlimited number of keyboard cases. This is an update from the cost being $100 per color. The gray, off white, and black colors are no extra charge. White paint is unfortunately an extra charge. The factory has agreed to try to mix paint to match other colors but it is more expensive than expected to clean the old color and change it.
You can get a custom color for the first round. If you have not already specified that you want a custom color please let me know.
Please do place an order for the required units of "other customizations (in $1 increments)" on the web site for each keyboard you want in the custom color and let me know when you have placed the order. You can pick free local pickup for the shipping so you do not have to pay extra.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 March 2016, 18:33:08
The more people want that color the more number of cases the $200 cost can be split among.
Some of you are ordering an extra case or two in a different color to be able to have for later.
Post by: riotonthebay on Thu, 24 March 2016, 08:16:00
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 24 March 2016, 09:30:15
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 March 2016, 20:14:46
And what kind of finishes and processes are people considering for the Ultra compact case? Powdercoated, anodized, electrophoresis, etched?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Wed, 30 March 2016, 20:52:26
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 30 March 2016, 21:01:37
Reminder - please get in on the True Red original case if you're interested by tomorrow!
And what kind of finishes and processes are people considering for the Ultra compact case? Powdercoated, anodized, electrophoresis, etched?
Put in a request for another F77 keyboard with that Pantone Red colour.
Getting a pantone Red colour anodized, is extremely tricky when it comes to aluminum because some cases might end up looking like pink or faded red. I thought powdercoat was the safest because it's the same colour across many casings.
You have to guarantee that the casing colour will be that very bright pantone red, across ALL casings both F77 and F62.
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 31 March 2016, 08:38:21
Reminder - please get in on the True Red original case if you're interested by tomorrow!
Pantone true red 19-1664
PAID :thumb:
Post by: digi on Fri, 01 April 2016, 12:36:27
Let's hope Notch likes the Model F revival so much that he bankrolls the creation of a whole new generation of 107 key and 87 key capacitive buckling spring keyboards with modern layouts.
Well, I can dream, anyway.
^^ I'm dreaming too, TKL Model F, oO.. I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 01 April 2016, 14:32:29
Idollar over on Deskthority is about to order a set of FSSK PCBs for his group buy, so I'll be able to make a sorta-Model F SSK someday soon. I'd still rather be able to buy one fully purpose-built, though. It's going to be a pain to have to screw mod an SSK, source 87 F pivot plates and hammers (I'm going to sacrifice an XT for my first FSSK), bend the PCB, solder in an xwhatsit controller, and put it all back together.Let's hope Notch likes the Model F revival so much that he bankrolls the creation of a whole new generation of 107 key and 87 key capacitive buckling spring keyboards with modern layouts.
Well, I can dream, anyway.
^^ I'm dreaming too, TKL Model F, oO.. I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
Post by: digi on Fri, 01 April 2016, 14:35:50
Idollar over on Deskthority is about to order a set of FSSK PCBs for his group buy, so I'll be able to make a sorta-Model F SSK someday soon. I'd still rather be able to buy one fully purpose-built, though. It's going to be a pain to have to screw mod an SSK, source 87 F pivot plates and hammers (I'm going to sacrifice an XT for my first FSSK), bend the PCB, solder in an xwhatsit controller, and put it all back together.Let's hope Notch likes the Model F revival so much that he bankrolls the creation of a whole new generation of 107 key and 87 key capacitive buckling spring keyboards with modern layouts.
Well, I can dream, anyway.
^^ I'm dreaming too, TKL Model F, oO.. I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
Hmm, I'm beginning to eye my SSK with bad intent :-\
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 01 April 2016, 19:03:53
I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
Who are you again, here on GH?
Never heard of you so who really cares but if you desperately want to blame anyone, just look in the mirror first sunshine ;D .
Post by: axtran on Wed, 06 April 2016, 09:13:56
Post by: henz on Wed, 06 April 2016, 15:29:01
Any updates? :)
Was wondering the same, its soon tajm!!!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 06 April 2016, 16:37:21
I will be making some extra F62/F77 keyboards so yours may even ship with the early round if you haven't ordered already but order soon - first come, first served (even though the early bird round has closed).
One pressing issue is the development of the updated xwhatsit controller being used for this project. wcass has been working on this project and could use some help prototyping (assembling a PCB with SMT components and checking his work).
He has posted a DT thread so feel free to discuss over there, or you can also discuss on the IC thread for this project to avoid duplication of threads. Wcass's thread: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/a-smaller-xwhatsit-t13479.html
Post by: henz on Wed, 06 April 2016, 16:48:14
I am still aiming for them to ship from China at the end of May, but I have run into some delays as I work with the factory.
I will be making some extra F62/F77 keyboards so yours may even ship with the early round if you haven't ordered already but order soon - first come, first served (even though the early bird round has closed).
One pressing issue is the development of the updated xwhatsit controller being used for this project. wcass has been working on this project and could use some help prototyping (assembling a PCB with SMT components and checking his work).
He has posted a DT thread so feel free to discuss over there, or you can also discuss on the IC thread for this project to avoid duplication of threads. Wcass's thread: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/a-smaller-xwhatsit-t13479.html
im one of the early birds, ill check out his thread to see if i can help
Post by: MrDaddio on Fri, 08 April 2016, 22:48:38
[attach=1]
This Olive Green IBM Selectric II is a beauty and would lend its color nicely to the Model F Keyboard. It would also fit in with the idea of reinventing a classic IBM machine that this group buy embodies.
My suggestion is Pantone PQ-5615 C
Here is a mock-up of this color on this Model F77 remastering
[attach=3]
If anyone has a different variation of this color or a Pantone swatch they think is more true to the original Selectric we can use that but I think this would be fairly close. I want to get as close as possible to the original color so if someone has a better way of finding the rgb color on the Selectric I'd love the input.
Post by: SixtyLife on Sat, 09 April 2016, 00:08:54
Alright guys we have Pantone red lined up it seems, lets see if we can can get a classic IBM color to a reasonable cost. The color I am thinking of comes from this beautiful machinethat render looks real nice. black caps would complete the look.
(Attachment Link)
This Olive Green IBM Selectric II is a beauty and would lend its color nicely to the Model F Keyboard. It would also fit in with the idea of reinventing a classic IBM machine that this group buy embodies.
My suggestion is Pantone PQ-5615 C
Here is a mock-up of this color on this Model F77 remastering
(Attachment Link)
If anyone has a different variation of this color or a Pantone swatch they think is more true to the original Selectric we can use that but I think this would be fairly close. I want to get as close as possible to the original color so if someone has a better way of finding the rgb color on the Selectric I'd love the input.
Post by: MrDaddio on Sat, 09 April 2016, 00:20:00
I just did a recolor (by looking at the IBM Selectric I want to emulate) of the example image from the modelfkeyboard website for the f77 then took the rgb value and found the closest Pantone color. I really want to get this case color made but don't particularly want to eat the entire 200$ cost myself so I figured images may convince at least a few others. Anyone interested please post here and we can make this thing real. If there is interest in a render with black caps I'd gladly pull that together too.
Post by: MrDaddio on Sat, 09 April 2016, 00:42:52
[attachimg=1]
Plz make this real...
Post by: hashbaz on Sat, 09 April 2016, 02:31:08
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sat, 09 April 2016, 06:18:44
I went ahead and found a pic of a Kish with black caps(thanks ghostjuggernaut for having such a nice board[hope I'm not breaking any unwritten rules borrowing your pic]) and changed the color(I want this to happen) to a similar green. The original image isn't powder coated(I don't think) so it isn't quite accurate but gives a pretty good idea of the colorway.Wow nice job bro. I really like this color.
(Attachment Link)
Plz make this real...
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 April 2016, 21:07:46
Based on estimates from the factory they need more time than what they budgeted. They couldn't find a machine to attach the springs, meaning 15,000 springs/flippers need to be attached by hand for the ~207 keyboards ordered.
The project will not be rushed to make a deadline if it compromises the component quality or quality of assembly of the keyboards. I am requiring the factory to hand test every flipper/spring to help ensure quality standards. Then I will be testing each keyboard key by key before it ships.
This group buy project will be done right even though we do not have the massive resources for hardware production and quality control that IBM had in the 1980s.
The updated ribbon pitch, more compact xwhatsit Model F USB controller (currently being tested over on DT) is not holding up the project just yet.
I am currently hoping they ship from China in June - I realize this is later than my original end of May expectations.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 19 April 2016, 22:06:29
Project update: things moving, but moving slower than hoped for.
They couldn't find a machine to attach the springs, meaning 15,000 springs/flippers need to be attached by hand for the ~207 keyboards ordered.
The project will not be rushed to make a deadline if it compromises the component quality or quality of assembly of the keyboards. I am requiring the factory to hand test every flipper/spring to help ensure quality standards. Then I will be testing each keyboard key by key before it ships.
I am currently hoping they ship from China in June - I realize this is later than my original end of May expectations.
No worries here on GH as long as the keyboards are all done RIGHT :thumb: .
QUALITY is utmost important here, regardless of the money spent on each keyboard because if it's not done right, you Ellipse shall receive all the free negative publicity for ever more. After all this is "Geekhack Central" home of Pitchforks and Flaming torches.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 20 April 2016, 02:43:36
Project update: things moving, but moving slower than hoped for.
Based on estimates from the factory they need more time than what they budgeted. They couldn't find a machine to attach the springs, meaning 15,000 springs/flippers need to be attached by hand for the ~207 keyboards ordered.
The project will not be rushed to make a deadline if it compromises the component quality or quality of assembly of the keyboards. I am requiring the factory to hand test every flipper/spring to help ensure quality standards. Then I will be testing each keyboard key by key before it ships.
This group buy project will be done right even though we do not have the massive resources for hardware production and quality control that IBM had in the 1980s.
The updated ribbon pitch, more compact xwhatsit Model F USB controller (currently being tested over on DT) is not holding up the project just yet.
I am currently hoping they ship from China in June - I realize this is later than my original end of May expectations.
Thanks for the update, also totally agree with Elrick, quality is most important. This is GH and we are all used to waiting :) Any update on the keysets you were hoping to produce?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 April 2016, 16:59:39
Yep Elrick - the produced prototype components were all excellent and I've been typing without issue on the F62/F77 prototypes these past few months. My focus is to ensure the standard of quality of the components continues, and also that the assembly passes my inspection.
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 20 April 2016, 17:22:09
Post by: manofinterests on Wed, 20 April 2016, 17:29:54
I'm getting pretty excited as we get closer and closer to shipping :)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 April 2016, 19:33:36
Production officially starts next week according to the factory! The barrels, flippers, and zinc cases are up first. The zinc case molds need to be made, and that process could take a few weeks.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 21 April 2016, 22:53:32
I may extend the final round deadline given the delayed project timeline.
Production officially starts next week according to the factory! The barrels, flippers, and zinc cases are up first. The zinc case molds need to be made, and that process could take a few weeks.
I.e., past the June deadline?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 April 2016, 16:42:36
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 April 2016, 23:12:34
I also updated the modelfkeyboards.com web site:
4/25 update: Order today and be included in the early bird round! To help entice latecomers to order in the first round, I will be including all orders from now onwards in the early bird round, while supplies last! I ordered some extra keyboards of each color and other combination of common variations and will update this note once I run out.
Post by: mumford on Tue, 26 April 2016, 15:01:39
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 April 2016, 15:57:50
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 26 April 2016, 18:20:47
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 April 2016, 18:36:13
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 26 April 2016, 20:06:35
I recommend extra inner foam and flippers/springs at a minimum.
What quantity are you recommending? Understand that many of us are likely virgin buyers.
Post by: trenzafeeds on Tue, 26 April 2016, 20:18:47
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 April 2016, 22:12:23
If interested here are the dozen or so articles about the Brand New Model F Keyboard project - some in English, and others in German and Korean: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/press/
cswanic I have seen quite a few orders with 5 additional barrels and flippers/springs and one extra inner foam mat, which seems like a good idea. Sometimes a spring gets bent out of shape when I remove a key too forcefully from one of my original Model F's and the spring cannot be recovered, so some spares always come in handy.
The barrels, flippers, and springs have so far held up since the prototypes were finished in January but of course it's just been three months so far. Maybe you can get away with no extra foam though: IBM's later inner foam design has not disintegrated, has held its shape well, and it is at least 25+ years old in my estimate.
Post by: SixtyLife on Tue, 26 April 2016, 22:17:54
Post by: bocahgundul on Tue, 26 April 2016, 22:25:47
did the meetup for people to try the prototypes happen yet? contemplating getting an F77 but would like to see some 3rd party reviews esp from people who have tried model F's before.Yea me too mane I'm on the fence here
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 26 April 2016, 22:28:51
contemplating getting an F77 but would like to see some 3rd party reviews esp from people who have tried model F's before.
Don't waste time contemplating because I have used Model-F keyboards in the distant past and liked them. Just never liked their archaic layouts which was common for all older Model-F keyboards.
All I know is Ellipse, is one of those OCD-like people meaning he will analyse and evaluate every keyboard carefully, before shipping it and shall take a long time before he finishes shipping out every keyboard order.
Hence don't get impatient when he starts his shipping, since it will take a long time before your order is dealt with and sent via courier. When you finally receive your keyboard you will then notice why this Ellipse keyboard is truly unique in quality and performance, compared to all other mass produced junk distributed around the world today.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 April 2016, 23:18:01
Sixty and bocah there was interest in a NYC keyboard meetup but I haven't seen much activity recently on the thread. I'm open to a meetup in Manhattan. Right now the best indication of the F62/F77 quality is to take a look and listen to the 2160p UHD video I posted on YouTube in January. It's high resolution and the sound is clear so each viewer can draw their own conclusions about the prototype sound. The prototypes sound good but I am confident that the production units will be even better!
Why reviews should be taken with a grain of salt: I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer's sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro's should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like "The sound is not the same as my original Model F." Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT's in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F's. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it's not just the sound - the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience - a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F's take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.
Post by: bocahgundul on Tue, 26 April 2016, 23:27:00
Yep that's right Elrick! Even if the factory is on schedule and ships by the end of June, it would still take time for sea mail from China to NY and then for me to test, inspect, and ship keyboard by keyboard for 207 keyboards.Ok I'll wait for the review on the early bird
Sixty and bocah there was interest in a NYC keyboard meetup but I haven't seen much activity recently on the thread. I'm open to a meetup in Manhattan. Right now the best indication of the F62/F77 quality is to take a look and listen to the 2160p UHD video I posted on YouTube in January. It's high resolution and the sound is clear so each viewer can draw their own conclusions about the prototype sound. The prototypes sound good but I am confident that the production units will be even better!
Why reviews should be taken with a grain of salt: I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer's sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro's should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like "The sound is not the same as my original Model F." Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT's in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F's. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it's not just the sound - the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience - a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F's take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.
If its really good or the feel is the same as the OG I'll get 2
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 April 2016, 09:35:50
Sea mail shipping from China to the US usually takes 2-4 weeks from what I can gather (probably closer to 4 weeks). After that I have to test and ship each unit to everyone. As an update I am hoping for everything to be assembled and ship from China by the end of June, so we are probably looking at the keyboards shipping to you in July/August. This is later than the original estimate.
I still have the option of air mail shipping from China, which would save 2-4 weeks (probably closer to 4 weeks) for those who want the keyboard ASAP. So far 4 keyboards are being shipped this way. The price is still $75/keyboard.
Post by: henz on Sat, 30 April 2016, 11:20:22
Expected timeline as of now:
Sea mail shipping from China to the US usually takes 2-4 weeks from what I can gather (probably closer to 4 weeks). After that I have to test and ship each unit to everyone. As an update I am hoping for everything to be assembled and ship from China by the end of June, so we are probably looking at the keyboards shipping to you in July/August. This is later than the original estimate.
I still have the option of air mail shipping from China, which would save 2-4 weeks (probably closer to 4 weeks) for those who want the keyboard ASAP. So far 4 keyboards are being shipped this way. The price is still $75/keyboard.
I dont get it, why aren't you shipping everything by air?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 April 2016, 11:32:12
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 30 April 2016, 22:17:48
Henz it's due to cost. $75/keyboard is the air mail cost for DHL (in bulk, it may be less). Sea mail is what I planned for in my budget - you're looking at a fraction of that amount for sea mail.
They already started screaming about the current shipping costs, so imagine the heart-attacks and rabid hatred out there for poor Ellipse if he started charging all shipments by Air, Geekhack would go into meltdown quicker than Fukushima on a Friday ;D .
Post by: henz on Sat, 30 April 2016, 23:37:26
Henz it's due to cost. $75/keyboard is the air mail cost for DHL (in bulk, it may be less). Sea mail is what I planned for in my budget - you're looking at a fraction of that amount for sea mail.
They already started screaming about the current shipping costs, so imagine the heart-attacks and rabid hatred out there for poor Ellipse if he started charging all shipments by Air, Geekhack would go into meltdown quicker than Fukushima on a Friday ;D .
I just misinterpreted, thought we still had to pay 75$ for normal shipping. :)
Post by: raymogi on Sat, 30 April 2016, 23:42:05
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 30 April 2016, 23:45:48
how much would it cost to ship 2 kishsaver to Indonesia?
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 01 May 2016, 00:12:38
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sun, 01 May 2016, 02:12:52
Post by: raymogi on Sun, 01 May 2016, 02:15:34
For many of us early purchasers, it would be nice to have complimentary air mail included since it seems we will be approaching the 6 month mark.
Agreed.
I almost forgot about this purchase altogether.
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sun, 01 May 2016, 02:17:13
It's nothing personal, but I will not exceed 6 months on this. And with all these delays, us early folk will be up against that window.For many of us early purchasers, it would be nice to have complimentary air mail included since it seems we will be approaching the 6 month mark.
Agreed.
I almost forgot about this purchase altogether.
Post by: joey on Sun, 01 May 2016, 02:23:53
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 01 May 2016, 09:55:36
bocah - shipping 2 keyboards together to Indonesia would be $120 total ($60 each)
Yes you can still order an air mail upgrade. The deadline for the air mail upgrade won't be for at least a month from now - just order 75 units of "other customizations in $1 increments" on modelfkeyboards.com and choose free local pickup, and make a note in the order that it is for upgraded shipping by air mail. Please note that this is an upgrade just from China to me by air mail, not any change from the shipping from me to you.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 01 May 2016, 19:31:33
I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.
I know it's tough trusting someone here with your hard earned cash since I myself lost lots, from people I had personally trusted here on GH Central.
All I can say is that I've bought from Ellipse before when he restored IBM keyboards from scratch and they returned in nearly new condition, he did a wonderful job on all of them without making any mistakes.
Not that my word means anything here on GH but at least give him some trust because without that, you can forget about ever owning a nice keyboard. There are rip-off merchants everywhere so beware but also consider if you can't afford to lose your dough on a keyboard, then you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.
Always buy what you can afford to lose and that's my word for today........
Post by: henz on Mon, 02 May 2016, 01:58:03
I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.
I know it's tough trusting someone here with your hard earned cash since I myself lost lots, from people I had personally trusted here on GH Central.
All I can say is that I've bought from Ellipse before when he restored IBM keyboards from scratch and they returned in nearly new condition, he did a wonderful job on all of them without making any mistakes.
Not that my word means anything here on GH but at least give him some trust because without that, you can forget about ever owning a nice keyboard. There are rip-off merchants everywhere so beware but also consider if you can't afford to lose your dough on a keyboard, then you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.
Always buy what you can afford to lose and that's my word for today........
So one should expect to loose their money? That is what i got out of this^^ the keyboard will have reselling value. I myself bought this to test it, if i dont like it i will definitely sell it.
Side note: Do we know which number we got? We early birds.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 02 May 2016, 03:57:42
So one should expect to loose their money? That is what i got out of this^^
In every single Group Buy, YES that will always be the possibility no matter the promises or statements made.
If you want 100% delivery within the famed "180 day Paypal agreement limit" then ONLY buy from the Classifieds section of this website. Don't waste your time in Group Buys if you are too afraid of losing your money.
Post by: ika on Mon, 02 May 2016, 04:11:13
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 02 May 2016, 04:47:08
Is there no way to do some kind of paypal refund/repayment in order to extend the 180-day window? I would not be opposed to that. I do like the keyboard but I want to be safe with my money, as it is a considerably amount.
You can't EXTEND anything unless paypal says so and thus far, 180 days is their final limit. Before that time period, they had their standard 45 day limit for years, in fact for a decade or more.
Be glad they upped it to 180 days now instead of relying upon their previous limit. No doubt if you have extreme worry issues with this purchase, then simply wait for one to turn up in the Classifieds section of Geekhack and if it's a bidding war, then prepare for battle when it presents itself.
Nothing in life is guaranteed so go with what you can afford to lose, otherwise best stay away from Geekhack altogether, - friendly advice here.
Post by: jjnist on Mon, 02 May 2016, 10:04:50
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 02 May 2016, 16:45:38
henz I've only assigned serials so far to those who reserved one. You can still place an order and reserve a serial for the early bird round (if it's not already reserved), at least through the end of May.
ika if we are getting too close to the 6 month deadline for some people I think you have a good idea. The only thing is that you'd need to place the new order first by credit or debit card (or mail a check!) and then I'd refund your paypal order. My paypal was frozen and I no longer accept payment through that method.
Post by: joey on Mon, 02 May 2016, 16:50:26
Post by: ika on Mon, 02 May 2016, 19:41:09
jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)
henz I've only assigned serials so far to those who reserved one. You can still place an order and reserve a serial for the early bird round (if it's not already reserved), at least through the end of May.
ika if we are getting too close to the 6 month deadline for some people I think you have a good idea. The only thing is that you'd need to place the new order first by credit or debit card (or mail a check!) and then I'd refund your paypal order. My paypal was frozen and I no longer accept payment through that method.
Ah, I thought you had worked out getting a business/merchant account with Paypal. My mistake. Like Joey said I'm not sure if credit cards will have the same protection, but it is a panic button option, as credit card companies do have the power to run chargebacks, for better or for worse?
Post by: riotonthebay on Mon, 02 May 2016, 23:38:44
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 03 May 2016, 00:32:13
I will be shipping out mostly in the order they were received so those who ordered earliest will get theirs tested and shipped first
Tooling funders are prioritized in this order, yes?
Also it's not clear to me what the status of the one-piece keys are. Is that for sure happening, are we waiting on something, etc?
Post by: jjnist on Tue, 03 May 2016, 01:18:57
jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)
Just take my money why don't you....
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 03 May 2016, 03:36:04
PayPal is a truly monstrous historical artifact primarily relied upon due to buyer superstition and convention.
Do doubt but don't get all holy about the major Credit Card Companies sunshine because they're another form of ignorance and torture when it comes to Group Buys.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 May 2016, 16:44:04
The factory is still coming up with a quote for the one-piece keys but they need more time. I am hoping that these costs can be reasonable because it would be even more costly to order $8-9k in Unicomp keys for the early bird orders and then try to see if it's economically possible to order one-piece key molds for the final round.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 08 May 2016, 11:29:50
Post by: kekstee on Mon, 09 May 2016, 10:33:12
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 09 May 2016, 17:18:05
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 May 2016, 06:04:05
I thought it was a nice touch to label each box professionally with the barrel and flipper image (I guess that's the best way to keep track of small production runs like this one) - I'm hoping they send me the empty boxes (maybe fill it with some finished keyboards or other accessories of course) :)
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Post by: joey on Tue, 10 May 2016, 06:12:30
Question: are you planning on making a 1.75u non-stepped right shift? If so, is it too late to change the layout of my order?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 May 2016, 16:46:29
Post by: jjnist on Tue, 10 May 2016, 23:54:52
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 May 2016, 18:23:05
Post by: joey on Wed, 11 May 2016, 18:29:19
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 May 2016, 18:34:10
And sure you can change the layout - please PM me what you want to change.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 May 2016, 13:19:02
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73363.msg2171355#msg2171355
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 May 2016, 17:52:48
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 17 May 2016, 21:59:10
And there will be time before the end of the final round to see a small case prototype keyboard of both F62 and F77 before ordering the ultra compact case versions, if you'd prefer to wait.
Good to know because I would first want to receive my first purchase of your keyboard and use it to see whether or not to buy another version with this 'newer', compact shape.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 May 2016, 18:09:18
I needed to extend the final round deadline because I definitely underestimated the time it takes for production in China - primarily because of all of the pre-production work on both my side and that the factory has to do. I am still waiting on the quote for the keys (they are a few weeks late) and I could still use some help from any PCB designers out there who could take a look at the ultra compact xwhatsit controller - it is not working 100% reliably just yet - I posted a link to the discussion thread on the IC (please keep PCB discussion over there to avoid duplication).
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 24 May 2016, 17:46:47
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 25 May 2016, 00:19:38
It was supposed to start a few weeks ago. I am now expecting the keyboards to ship from China in July. The factory stated that the molds would have been done earlier this month.
Good to know that the Chinese look to have absorbed some good old Australian Style of work schedules, because we're famous for trying to get something done yesterday but it actually gets finished far into the future way past any deadlines.
Maybe that's why nothing is made here in my country anymore because of our type of behaviour and maybe that's fair, for any manufacturers to look elsewhere to get something done.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 May 2016, 17:21:33
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 May 2016, 13:40:03
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 31 May 2016, 23:13:12
Please share your own thoughts on these questions too - I'd be interested in seeing other perspectives:
Regarding why I think mechanical keyboards are becoming increasingly popular, I think there are a number of factors. One is definitely the expansion of the number of computer and gaming enthusiasts and the gaming and mechanical keyboard communities that have flourished in recent years (including reddit.com/MechanicalKeyboards, Geekhack, and Deskthority). Another related factor is the massive growth of interest in technology in general, and not just by a subset of the population. Many years ago it was not as common in my experience to be knowledgeable with using computers and smart phones and they were not as much an essential part of most people's lives, but nowadays almost everyone has a smart phone and/or tablet with them at all times and uses their devices constantly throughout every single day, and even young kids are better than their parents at the computer and are online and/or gaming daily. With this acceptance of technology into the mainstream of our culture I think it has opened the door for millions of people to want and to seek out the best of what technology has to offer in a given product category: the newest and best iPhone or Samsung Galaxy, a brand new flat screen large-format, high definition television, the best tablet, a state of the art (possibly custom-built) computer, a car with advanced computer integrations and safety features, a high-end home stereo/surround sound/sound bar setup, etc. Many of the mass-produced keyboards with Cherry MX switches have centered their branding and marketing on being "gaming keyboards" but I feel that mechanical keyboards serve a significantly wider market as well and are even more important for the comfort and productivity of those who use computers every day, especially those who do a lot of typing. I've spoken with many writers and programmers who love the Model F and other mechanical keyboards because their keyboard is one of the most important things they use every day and are willing to pay more for the best (many spend more hours typing on their keyboard than sleeping in their beds I'm sure!). Many consider the buckling spring the best switch for typing. This is one reason mechanical keyboards in general are gaining in popularity, but unfortunately, availability has been a real problem for new buckling spring keyboards. Keyboards with those other switches are often your only choice if you are looking for a 60% compact or tenkeyless board, since there those form factors with buckling spring switches either don't exist or are rare and can only be acquired second-hand.
The process and history of the project: I have been a collector of IBM buckling spring keyboards for years and was able to acquire a number of Model F keyboards through my network of IT recycler contacts, but no 62-key "Kishsaver" Model F keyboards. (A note on the naming conventions of this project: While the brand new Model F keyboards from this project can support any number of keys, I chose model names that reflect their original key counts; hence they were named F62 and F77.) To no avail I spent a while looking for more 62-key F62 Kishsavers and 77-key F77 keyboards. Given the high interest for Kishsavers and 77-key Model F keyboards and the non-existent supply, as well as my own interest in a Kishsaver, I looked into what it would cost to bring these great keyboards with metal cases back into production, working on the CAD files and discussing ideas with a number of professional engineers, PCB designers, product designers, and many others, some of whom contribute to the DT/GH/reddit forums. I was also inspired by the significant interest and discussions on the forums regarding bringing back the Model F buckling spring keyboard. This project is definitely not a one man show - I could not have done this project without the help of so many community members, especially xwhatsit for inventing a reliable capacitive controller replacement for Model F keyboards, as well as many others sharing their thoughts with me on the forums and over PM's and emails. I have learned a lot along the way about manufacturing, PCBs, materials, micrometer measurement, CAD (computer aided design), and about the specifications of Model F keyboards. This is a unique project in that it is the first one to bring back Model F buckling spring technology, which has been out of production for essentially 25+ years. I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds - with no guarantees of success. Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike Model F components. I have been working with my China contacts for about a year and a half on a number of projects so it was not difficult for me to work with them on this project. My past projects included mass production of xwhatsit's PCB's that allowed older IBM keyboards to be USB, have full NKRO, and function on today's computer equipment.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 01 June 2016, 18:45:35
The zinc case molds are currently in their first stage of production - initial CNC milling. The factory rep kindly took some photos for us - for them it was probably a strange request!
The molds are far from completed and are expected to be ready in about 2-3 weeks from now.
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Post by: romevi on Wed, 01 June 2016, 18:55:24
Post by: tommyonsn on Fri, 03 June 2016, 07:32:00
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 03 June 2016, 18:21:08
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 03 June 2016, 21:29:04
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :) . I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.
Those buying EXTRAS, will definitely post them on Ebay and watch the addicts go crazy for them ;) .
Post by: 3K on Sun, 05 June 2016, 09:43:13
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :) . I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.
Those buying EXTRAS, will definitely post them on Ebay and watch the addicts go crazy for them ;) .
I think this is the case with nearly every product you encounter when spending time on GH. Just look at artisans and keysets ...
Apropos, are the ultra compact cases still avaible after the GB ends? Probably not, right? ;D
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 June 2016, 11:36:33
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 05 June 2016, 14:55:55
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 June 2016, 17:36:11
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 05 June 2016, 18:48:39
Not sure yet. Probably a month or two after early bird round orders are delivered. The case molds were delayed over a month so we are behind schedule.
Just wanted to make sure I had some time. Any chance at a testing meet up?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 June 2016, 16:38:43
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 06 June 2016, 19:34:29
Yep I'm up for a testing meetup in Manhattan.
Awesome I'd love to try one out.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 June 2016, 19:23:27
Post by: TieuNgu on Tue, 07 June 2016, 21:08:10
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 June 2016, 23:00:36
Currently there is an issue with extra voltage on the xwhatsit controller which was recently redesigned for the ultra compact cases to allow the cables to be detachable from the outside. If anyone who knows electrical engineering/circuit design can help please PM me - I think that the resistor/capacitor values may need to change as the trace lengths are shorter.
Post by: TieuNgu on Wed, 08 June 2016, 20:57:55
The USB cables are detachable for all keyboards. For the ultra compact case I expect the USB to be detachable without needing to open the case.
Currently there is an issue with extra voltage on the xwhatsit controller which was recently redesigned for the ultra compact cases to allow the cables to be detachable from the outside. If anyone who knows electrical engineering/circuit design can help please PM me - I think that the resistor/capacitor values may need to change as the trace lengths are shorter.
Does it take so long to open up the case? I prefer the look of the original case but I like to quickly detach the USB cable as I move around a lot
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 June 2016, 21:07:14
If you'd like to see a video showing the keyboard and opening it up please see here:
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 09 June 2016, 00:14:58
Nope it doesn't take long. The case opens with 4 regular screws.
Good that it starts to get interesting, like opening a case box for a drive-train transimission.
Loving this more and more every time I see it. Now this is what having a Model-F type keyboard should be :thumb: .
If you need to open it, break out a phillips and get busy, like working on a vehicle as such.
After viewing your vid I noticed how solid sounding it is when comparing it to any standard SSK or 101 Keyboard. Has a deep thock but not sounding like a thorpie, almost like it's own sound especially designed for the Model-Fs.
Another thing here that has to be mentioned, is the USB cable which looks so flimsy and the way it connects to the PCB seems so detrimental. Any Gorilla A-Hole can yank the cable out attached to the keyboard and quite possibly damage the connections, please say you will fix this when our models come to our front doors?
Never underestimate human-apes when keyboards are involved.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 June 2016, 06:42:40
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 09 June 2016, 07:36:52
In the video I only had the clip installed on the F62 and not the F77 IIRC.
Thank Gawd, I got worried since I bought the F77, the ONLY real Model-F keyboard every person on Earth should own 8) .
So anxious to receive mine, this GB is really shredding every last vestige of decency from me so now I'm picking fights with meek HHKB users. This won't end well here at all........
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 June 2016, 16:26:20
Also an update - the F62/F77 case mold tooling is expected to be ready in the next 1-2 weeks. Then the factory will send me for my approval a die cast sample, the very first die cast Model F part in 2+ decades!
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 11 June 2016, 20:05:19
Also an update - the F62/F77 case mold tooling is expected to be ready in the next 1-2 weeks. Then the factory will send me for my approval a die cast sample, the very first die cast Model F part in 2+ decades!
So it's COMING :o .
Nice to see a proper resurrection of this famous Keyboard verses the Cherry Domination here on Earth. Hope this keyboard fends off the insipid devotion to all the Thorpie and Cherry Clans and re-establish another Golden Empire of the Model-Fs. May it rule a thousand years :thumb: .
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 12 June 2016, 10:56:25
A major milestone: we passed $100,000 in orders this weekend (including shipping)!
Also an update - the F62/F77 case mold tooling is expected to be ready in the next 1-2 weeks. Then the factory will send me for my approval a die cast sample, the very first die cast Model F part in 2+ decades!
Great update! Can't wait to see the first one. Itching to get my hands on mine at some point in the near future :thumb:
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 12 June 2016, 10:57:59
Post by: henz on Mon, 13 June 2016, 03:39:42
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Mon, 13 June 2016, 03:48:49
cant wait, this is going to be awsome. What is the current timeline that the earlybirds will ship?I try to forget I have this coming to me... but it's about all I think about...
Post by: henz on Mon, 13 June 2016, 04:06:45
cant wait, this is going to be awsome. What is the current timeline that the earlybirds will ship?I try to forget I have this coming to me... but it's about all I think about...
i always have it in the back of my head, trying to find me some cool BS artisans :)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 June 2016, 19:27:44
For those who haven't been following recently, there were significant delays on the factory's side which was disappointing. The molds for the die cast zinc cases went into production about a month later than the factory's initial timeline stated.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 13 June 2016, 22:11:15
henz it's expected to ship from china in late july/august at the earliest. then it takes probably a month to ship by sea mail to me, and then I have to test each one before shipping it.
For those who haven't been following recently, there were significant delays on the factory's side which was disappointing. The molds for the die cast zinc cases went into production about a month later than the factory's initial timeline stated.
Not worried here just as long as my F77 arrives at my Front door before the 25th of December 2016, then I'll be happy ;D .
Post by: henz on Tue, 14 June 2016, 00:01:40
henz it's expected to ship from china in late july/august at the earliest. then it takes probably a month to ship by sea mail to me, and then I have to test each one before shipping it.
For those who haven't been following recently, there were significant delays on the factory's side which was disappointing. The molds for the die cast zinc cases went into production about a month later than the factory's initial timeline stated.
Thanks ill wait impatiently until then :)
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Tue, 14 June 2016, 10:15:36
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 June 2016, 20:22:02
So if you would prefer that your keyboard ships from China in late July/August at the earliest please order with the early bird round in the next month or so.
(cross-posted reply from the IC regarding the early bird deadlnie) Just a reminder that there is still time in the early bird round. Sorry this was not clear.
The early bird deadline passed but I decided to make some extra units for the early bird round and keep accepting orders until stock runs out, then orders will be fulfilled in the final round after supply runs out (I'll put up a note on the web site when that happens). But I would recommend ordering soon just so you don't have to wait an extra few months when I gather the final round orders.
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 15 June 2016, 07:19:19
Post by: nothing4me on Wed, 15 June 2016, 14:22:31
And open until November... nice! Maybe someone can upload pictures of their compact case? :D
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 15 June 2016, 15:35:44
Can't decide between the normal case and the compact case... will we get pictures of it soon? The CAD pics on the site don't help too much. :(
And open until November... nice! Maybe someone can upload pictures of their compact case? :D
Me neither. The collector side of me (the evil side I'm always trying to suppress) wants the OG case but the hobbyist side of me (the good side I'm always trying to nurture) wants the compact case. :-\
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 15 June 2016, 17:25:28
nothing4me we will not be getting any compact case photos soon unfortunately. I am focused on production of the original case keyboards but hope to get the ultra compact cases in the coming months (hopefully with or soon after the early bird shipment). My goal for the ultra compact cases is a regular CNC milled aluminum custom keyboard case similar in appearance to the KMAC Mini or the like.
Some people are ordering just the spare ultra compact case (includes the ultra compact bottom inner assembly) if they can't decide between the cases and don't want to order extra full keyboards. All other parts are expected to be interchangeable.
Post by: nothing4me on Thu, 16 June 2016, 12:31:09
I am going with the keycap mold production Ludovician.Do you think we'll have photos of the compact case by November? I can wait until then. Thank you! :)
nothing4me we will not be getting any compact case photos soon unfortunately. I am focused on production of the original case keyboards but hope to get the ultra compact cases in the coming months (hopefully with or soon after the early bird shipment). My goal for the ultra compact cases is a regular CNC milled aluminum custom keyboard case similar in appearance to the KMAC Mini or the like.
Some people are ordering just the spare ultra compact case (includes the ultra compact bottom inner assembly) if they can't decide between the cases and don't want to order extra full keyboards. All other parts are expected to be interchangeable.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 16 June 2016, 22:04:22
I am focused on production of the original case keyboards but hope to get the ultra compact cases in the coming months (hopefully with or soon after the early bird shipment). My goal for the ultra compact cases is a regular CNC milled aluminum custom keyboard case similar in appearance to the KMAC Mini or the like.
Glad you are concentrating upon the TRUE Model-F believers instead of pleasing the Ultra Compact Crowd - FIRST ;D .
Remember we are the first ones who jumped on into this Group Buy because we truly love the original style of the Model-F series. All the later ones wanting HHKB styled keyboards, in truth should be ignored because they are not real keyboard enthusiasts like us here. We don't want our Model-Fs looking like Cherry's, Realforce or HHKBs whatsoever. All we want is an updated, true to form Model-F that shall last 100 years of use.
Accept the beauty as is because that is what the Model-F represents in all it's natural glory, a very sexy keyboard built for the authentic, keyboard zealot.
Post by: Colnor on Fri, 17 June 2016, 15:57:56
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 19 June 2016, 15:08:04
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Sun, 19 June 2016, 19:58:57
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:36:25
Does anyone have experience with product marketing and want to support the project? I could definitely use some help/advice to get as many of these units made as possible before the end of the final round.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 21 June 2016, 19:35:13
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Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 21 June 2016, 20:08:50
Post by: nothing4me on Wed, 22 June 2016, 23:47:20
Die cast metal case molds should be finished this week! Here are some photos from the factory::p This dirty ***** is going to be popping model Fs left and right. :p
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 June 2016, 19:46:28
Post by: raymogi on Thu, 23 June 2016, 19:47:08
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 23 June 2016, 20:00:44
I wonder how much these molds weigh - they must be 100+ pounds I would think?I bet, that second to last photo has a huge chunk of metal in it!!!
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 23 June 2016, 21:28:08
I wonder how much these molds weigh - they must be 100+ pounds I would think?
Depends upon the material being flushed into it to form a case. If it's molten metal then the casing has to be special hardened steel so as to absorb the temps correctly and form the necessary structure whilst it cools.
When it spits out the casing it readies for the next formation. Usually molds such as this have a limited lifespan compared to plastic injection, which can shoot out millions+.
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Fri, 24 June 2016, 21:20:12
ThoughtArtist you are not the only one - quite a few people I've been chatting with are selling off some of their keyboards and other things for these Brand New Model F reproductions.
Does anyone have experience with product marketing and want to support the project? I could definitely use some help/advice to get as many of these units made as possible before the end of the final round.
Try to get ArsTechnica to do a story on this.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 26 June 2016, 11:02:39
The thousands of barrels and flippers finished production (photos posted earlier in the thread). The die cast metal case mold photos were posted a few days ago (the cases are expected to go into production this week). There were significant production delays on the factory's side on the die cast molds which put the project behind schedule.
I am extending the deadline to give time for early bird feedback before the final round closes (at least 1-2 months) so that you can hear others' opinions before making a decision if you'd like.
Post by: nothing4me on Mon, 27 June 2016, 01:22:07
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 04 July 2016, 11:06:30
Post by: joey on Mon, 04 July 2016, 11:07:35
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 04 July 2016, 20:00:48
The very first die cast F62 and F77 cases have been cast! This week they will be powdercoated and mailed to me for approval.
:o :o :o It's Happening......bringing back the Model-F keyboard in it's ORIGINAL Design, what perfection. :o :o :o
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Mon, 04 July 2016, 20:33:14
The very first die cast F62 and F77 cases have been cast! This week they will be powdercoated and mailed to me for approval.
:o :o :o It's Happening......bringing back the Model-F keyboard in it's ORIGINAL Design, what perfection. :o :o :o
The original design is robust, and I appreciate that, but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
Post by: axtran on Mon, 04 July 2016, 22:57:00
The original design is robust, and I appreciate that, but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
Yeah, I'm tempted to swap to the smaller case and just wait-wait-wait, but there's something super nice about the big ass bezel of the kish, too :)
Post by: kawasaki161 on Tue, 05 July 2016, 00:01:34
I'm tempted to get both cases and Swap the innards from one to the other every now and then.
Yeah, I'm tempted to swap to the smaller case and just wait-wait-wait, but there's something super nice about the big ass bezel of the kish, too :)
I just remembered something, I don't know if it was already answered, but will the package be declared for full price for international orders or will it be a little less? For something this expensive I wouldn't mind paying a little VAT, but 19% on the full price (they even add the delivery price) is quite much. I'll wait with my order until I've seen the first ultra compact prototype and I hope the question will be answered until then, if not I'll just add the way I'd prefer it to be declared as in the order comments.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 05 July 2016, 22:24:05
but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
Sorry SUNSHINE it won't be the show stopper here within this Reality 8) .
The F77 is STILL the absolute Keyboard of PERFECTION and the sooner you lamo's can come to terms with that, the better you'll feel about yourself for choosing the horrid HHKB disaster.
Bursting the bubble of some people who are completely deluded, is both a thrill and quite sad because eventually when they face the real world it's not always going to agree with them on their failed-choice ;) .
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Thu, 07 July 2016, 17:38:03
The original design is robust, and I appreciate that, but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
Yeah, I'm tempted to swap to the smaller case and just wait-wait-wait, but there's something super nice about the big ass bezel of the kish, too :)
Yeah, actually I think I am going to just get the F-77 full-size case in ANSI layout, I just wanted to see what Elrick would say to that.. " Sunshine" LOL.
But... I believe if I were going to tote the board with me, then I would get an aluminum case just for practical reasons if nothing else. Having both to swap would be cool though. I think this will mainly be a special use home-board for me so I'll probably just get the zinc-alloy diecast. I pretty much have to choose just one, so it's going to be the classic one, but I would like to get 1 of each option!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 July 2016, 21:27:54
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 10 July 2016, 22:07:53
The factory did a good job with these. My first few months working on this project last year, I didn't know that the die cast metal parts came out "rough" out of a mold, lines and marks and all, and then had to be fixed up.
[attachimg=1]
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Post by: joey on Mon, 11 July 2016, 03:51:28
Post by: potatowire on Mon, 11 July 2016, 14:34:36
The very first die cast Model F keyboard cases to come out of the Brand New Model F metal molds, with no secondary finishing operations or powdercoating done yet:
The factory did a good job with these. My first few months working on this project last year, I didn't know that the die cast metal parts came out "rough" out of a mold, lines and marks and all, and then had to be fixed up.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
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Beautiful!
Post by: sleepy916 on Mon, 11 July 2016, 17:33:29
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Mon, 11 July 2016, 21:51:41
Honestly, I believe this is the first raw die-cast I have seen. It's pretty interesting!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 July 2016, 18:16:51
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Tue, 12 July 2016, 22:52:54
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 July 2016, 18:43:15
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 July 2016, 19:45:09
Kishy's original F62 weighing 3,025 grams: http://kishy.ca/?attachment_id=956
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Thu, 14 July 2016, 19:56:43
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 14 July 2016, 21:08:39
The very first die cast metal cases arrived today and they are great! These sample cases are even heavier than the originals! The F77 is about 1.2 pounds heavier than my original F77 and the F62 is about 0.9 lbs heavier than kishy's original F62 Kishsaver.
YES, a genuine SKULL Crusher Keyboard.
Who the hell needs a Glock when you've got one of these babies, ready for action 8) .
Post by: TieuNgu on Thu, 14 July 2016, 21:13:18
Post by: stoic-lemon on Thu, 14 July 2016, 21:25:41
are these supposed to be the ultra compact case?No.
Post by: Pemdas on Thu, 14 July 2016, 21:30:46
The very first die cast metal cases arrived today and they are great! These sample cases are even heavier than the originals! The F77 is about 1.2 pounds heavier than my original F77 and the F62 is about 0.9 lbs heavier than kishy's original F62 Kishsaver.
Kishy's original F62 weighing 3,025 grams: http://kishy.ca/?attachment_id=956
Awesome! Looks like everything is coming along really nicely! Those cases look like beasts!
Post by: guy12 on Thu, 14 July 2016, 21:39:56
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 July 2016, 21:45:09
guy12 these are the raw cases that have not been finished/powdercoated. The gray color should be similar to an IBM Industrial SSK and the beige/off white color should be similar to the original F77 and F62 keyboards.
Post by: dante on Fri, 15 July 2016, 09:27:45
The very first die cast metal cases arrived today and they are great! These sample cases are even heavier than the originals! The F77 is about 1.2 pounds heavier than my original F77 and the F62 is about 0.9 lbs heavier than kishy's original F62 Kishsaver.
YES, a genuine SKULL Crusher Keyboard.
Who the hell needs a Glock when you've got one of these babies, ready for action 8) .
The problem is getting a hernia from swinging this thing.
Post by: guy12 on Fri, 15 July 2016, 11:17:46
http://norbauerwebshareassets.blob.core.windows.net/props/novatouch-QandA-1.jpg
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Fri, 15 July 2016, 12:02:09
Is the powdercoat going to look like this? :D
http://norbauerwebshareassets.blob.core.windows.net/props/novatouch-QandA-1.jpg
Ellipse said it would be similar to the Industrial SSK's finish. So more like this
http://images.lmgtfy.com/?q=IBM+Industrial+SSK#
Post by: guy12 on Fri, 15 July 2016, 12:58:46
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Fri, 15 July 2016, 13:19:11
I think I would really like the matte black look actually. Hoping it would look similar to this
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__sM1womg3hs/S8dwGSS0n9I/AAAAAAAAABk/3qQ_mu9YrSE/s1600/Option+5+Texture+2.jpg
Snoopy powdercoated his kish black as well but I'm not sure how matte it is.
http://abload.de/img/img_033601kmw.jpg
Post by: guy12 on Fri, 15 July 2016, 14:10:54
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Fri, 15 July 2016, 16:23:41
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 July 2016, 18:14:43
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 July 2016, 12:09:20
Here's the order breakdown for HHKB split right shift vs. standard style shift: about 114 split right shift keyboards ordered out of 265 keyboards ordered so far (43% of keyboards ordered up to now will be HHKB style split right shift).
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sun, 17 July 2016, 12:16:00
$120,000+ in orders so far (including shipping)!
Here's the order breakdown for HHKB split right shift vs. standard style shift: about 114 split right shift keyboards ordered out of 265 keyboards ordered so far (43% of keyboards ordered up to now will be HHKB style split right shift).
Damn, that's a lot of orders and I still have to order one (gonna wait for the first real life pictures of the ultra compact first though).
The split right shift thing does not suprise me, on a keyboard with layers this is one of the most ergonomic methods of switching layers, at least in my opinion.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 July 2016, 09:27:18
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 23 July 2016, 01:10:10
An update - the PCBs are expected to go into production next week. Everyone is getting the compact xwhatsit controller that uses the standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable.
Give it, Give it, Give it Ellipse - Give it, Give it, Give it Ellipse - Give it, Give it, Give it Ellipse 8)
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Mon, 25 July 2016, 14:57:27
Post by: Pestik on Tue, 26 July 2016, 03:05:56
Also, looking at the raw die cast cases I'm thinking a polished metal finish would have been an interesting option, although it would be a fingerprint/oil magnet.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 July 2016, 14:43:47
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 27 July 2016, 20:10:43
You can go for the ultra compact cases if you like the metal look, as those are hard anodized, though I recommend the classic style, original cases which the vast majority are going with.
If you aint into CLASSICS then look elsewhere, this keyboard is NOT for that geezer. The Model-F is unique and anyone that say they love using a Model-F, MUST accept it's true form with no adulteration whatsoever.
It's like asking for a Dodge Challenger then adding Hyundai Panels to it, God have mercy on your Soul for ever doing that type of sick and perverted thing 8) .
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Thu, 28 July 2016, 00:08:14
You can go for the ultra compact cases if you like the metal look, as those are hard anodized, though I recommend the classic style, original cases which the vast majority are going with.
If you aint into CLASSICS then look elsewhere, this keyboard is NOT for that geezer. The Model-F is unique and anyone that say they love using a Model-F, MUST accept it's true form with no adulteration whatsoever.
It's like asking for a Dodge Challenger then adding Hyundai Panels to it, God have mercy on your Soul for ever doing that type of sick and perverted thing 8) .
I like classics, but in this case, modernization can be a good thing. When these keyboards where originally made, portability and mouse usage where not considered like they are today. Modern computing is much different than in 1984 with its rigid, dedicated terminals. I appreciate the classic design, but I also have to think about how I actually use a computer now. A modernized, lighter weight and space saving design that keeps the core desired typing technology the same fits into this.
This is a simple evolution, which will be much welcomed by some who appreciate Model F buckling spring technology but want a more versatile design to fit their current needs.
Post by: guy12 on Thu, 04 August 2016, 16:00:28
Post by: digi on Thu, 04 August 2016, 16:05:19
You can go for the ultra compact cases if you like the metal look, as those are hard anodized, though I recommend the classic style, original cases which the vast majority are going with.
If you aint into CLASSICS then look elsewhere, this keyboard is NOT for that geezer. The Model-F is unique and anyone that say they love using a Model-F, MUST accept it's true form with no adulteration whatsoever.
It's like asking for a Dodge Challenger then adding Hyundai Panels to it, God have mercy on your Soul for ever doing that type of sick and perverted thing 8) .
I like classics, but in this case, modernization can be a good thing. When these keyboards where originally made, portability and mouse usage where not considered like they are today. Modern computing is much different than in 1984 with its rigid, dedicated terminals. I appreciate the classic design, but I also have to think about how I actually use a computer now. A modernized, lighter weight and space saving design that keeps the core desired typing technology the same fits into this.
This is a simple evolution, which will be much welcomed by some who appreciate Model F buckling spring technology but want a more versatile design to fit their current needs.
Just look at the evolution of the guy in your avatar, he's so much more knowledgeable than Elrick..but then again, he's probably not drunk or angry either. :o
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 04 August 2016, 19:56:52
Just look at the evolution of the guy in your avatar, he's so much more knowledgeable than Elrick..but then again, he's probably not drunk or angry either. :o
So if no one believes with your view point then they MUST be either drunk or angry well in the REAL world, that is what is known as a Free Discussion.
Shall NEVER select a keyboard that wants to copy itself as an Idiot HHKB because if I ever loved it, I would purchase it BUT never delude myself into thinking that every custom made keyboard on this planet, should look exactly like my HHKB ;) . If you want a portable Keyboard isn't the HHKB exactly that to begin with? For the limp-wristed here the Model-F version will NOT be lighter than any of your HHKBs so where does that leave you when it comes to moving it about? All you would have done is disfigure an original keyboard that was never suppose to be portable hence it's size and weight. All those crying about weight, shall be leaving their HHKB disfigurements at home because surprise, surprise it is still too heavy for them to carry around.
You lot here know nothing about acquiring and using different styles of keyboards and enjoying them for what they offer, something completely different from any Cherry or Thorpie creation. The Model-F was and always will be the Perfect Keyboard from a bygone era (once manufactured in the US), that is being resurrected for all of us here today. Appreciate it's original form because it's beautiful as is. Sorry if I don't want to felch you for approval sunshine but this is the REAL world and thus far, expressing my viewpoints will never be restricted when it comes to this truly REAL Model-F Keyboard.
Clint Eastwood is right, you lot are completely overly sensitive to everything, time to find a pair and man up here, instead of crying about what someone says - typical youngsters always thinking everyone needs to keep them happy and worshiped on a constant basis to help them feel valued in Life, unfortunately for you lot here it will never happen 8) .
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 August 2016, 19:58:14
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 August 2016, 21:09:37
The PCBs are going into production this week or next week.
I am also ordering custom made ribbon cables for this project - two 15 position cables like IBM's originals but with the more standard 0.1" pitch of the compact xwhatsit controllers. The factory will solder and assemble everything so it arrives ready to use for everyone of course.
The original style cases are continuing to be a bottleneck. I recently rejected the factory's powdercoating samples airmailed from China as not being in line with my standards and in the original Model F style. I know everyone is eager to get their shipments delivered but I won't sacrifice my quality standards to get these out a month or two earlier - we are only doing these once and I want them done right!
Here are photos of the very first powdercoated zinc Model F cases. Please disregard the colors of the photos and the powdercoating textured finish as they are not accurate. I expect to be getting more samples in hand later this month.
And in case you haven't been following the thread in recent months, the barrels and flippers finished production about a month or so ago.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 05 August 2016, 01:44:51
A production update:
Here are photos of the very first powdercoated zinc Model F cases. Please disregard the colors of the photos and the powdercoating textured finish as they are not accurate. I expect to be getting more samples in hand later this month.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Brings tears to my old eyes here :'( .
Such perfection but still retaining it's OLD world charm, like what nature intended. When it aint broke why modify it, keep it beautiful as is :thumb: .
Over time most will forget about the normal, boring layouts but this one will still ring true when used. Always loved this layout and I hope it soon will be completed to provide everyone a glimpse of what refinement really looks and feels like.
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 05 August 2016, 08:19:12
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 August 2016, 17:55:22
Post by: digi on Fri, 05 August 2016, 17:59:12
Just look at the evolution of the guy in your avatar, he's so much more knowledgeable than Elrick..but then again, he's probably not drunk or angry either. :o
So if no one believes with your view point then they MUST be either drunk or angry well in the REAL world, that is what is known as a Free Discussion.
Shall NEVER select a keyboard that wants to copy itself as an Idiot HHKB because if I ever loved it, I would purchase it BUT never delude myself into thinking that every custom made keyboard on this planet, should look exactly like my HHKB ;) . If you want a portable Keyboard isn't the HHKB exactly that to begin with? For the limp-wristed here the Model-F version will NOT be lighter than any of your HHKBs so where does that leave you when it comes to moving it about? All you would have done is disfigure an original keyboard that was never suppose to be portable hence it's size and weight. All those crying about weight, shall be leaving their HHKB disfigurements at home because surprise, surprise it is still too heavy for them to carry around.
You lot here know nothing about acquiring and using different styles of keyboards and enjoying them for what they offer, something completely different from any Cherry or Thorpie creation. The Model-F was and always will be the Perfect Keyboard from a bygone era (once manufactured in the US), that is being resurrected for all of us here today. Appreciate it's original form because it's beautiful as is. Sorry if I don't want to felch you for approval sunshine but this is the REAL world and thus far, expressing my viewpoints will never be restricted when it comes to this truly REAL Model-F Keyboard.
Clint Eastwood is right, you lot are completely overly sensitive to everything, time to find a pair and man up here, instead of crying about what someone says - typical youngsters always thinking everyone needs to keep them happy and worshiped on a constant basis to help them feel valued in Life, unfortunately for you lot here it will never happen 8) .
TL;DR
Post by: cjhard on Sat, 06 August 2016, 09:47:34
That's right cjhard. I will only be able to check the colors and powdercoating quality when I have them in hand - I can't tell from the photos.
Was the powdercoating in the photo's not what you had recently rejected? Or was it the colors on the aluminum prototype cases you had already received what you've rejected? I must have skimmed your update and thought the colors pictured were in hand and rejected.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 12:48:35
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 06 August 2016, 13:12:23
This could be important in the future, when you will probably start to offer mx adapters, which I suppose will be retro compatible with the already sold keyboard! :cool:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 13:15:47
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 06 August 2016, 13:18:35
Giorgio the Model M and Model F keys do not function on a flat back plate. The goal of the project is to reproduce the original Model F keyboards. I will not be offering adapters.
No cherry mx adapters? I must have made a mix - up with another project :eek:
Post by: guy12 on Sat, 06 August 2016, 16:43:00
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 18:39:40
Post by: joey on Sat, 06 August 2016, 18:41:08
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 18:45:53
Post by: joey on Sat, 06 August 2016, 18:55:45
What do you mean joey? I am making full one piece key sets in standard pearl/pebble and also black. You can order spare key sets now on the modelfkeyboards.com site.You answered it :P
My order already comes with a set, does that only include the keys on the board, or the full 103 set?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 18:57:32
Post by: joey on Sat, 06 August 2016, 19:00:36
Every keyboard with keys comes with a full set of keys, not just the ones on the keyboard.Great! I don't know if I'll order another set, not really a fan of blanks.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 19:04:05
Post by: guy12 on Sat, 06 August 2016, 20:49:30
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 21:03:47
Post by: guy12 on Sat, 06 August 2016, 21:28:25
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 08 August 2016, 21:54:35
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 09 August 2016, 03:29:10
Here are photos of the very first powdercoated zinc Model F cases. Please disregard the colors of the photos and the powdercoating textured finish as they are not accurate. I expect to be getting more samples in hand later this month.
Will all colors have that textured finish like the true red? ;o
Post by: joey on Tue, 09 August 2016, 03:31:06
My sets come with the legends (dye sublimated) as well - not just blanks.The black sets are only blank.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 August 2016, 22:29:24
And here is an update on the case molds. The factory has finally completed their draft powdercoating and color mixing of all color options and will be mailing me the sample case parts this week.
Please note that the colors below are not at all accurate and I hope to take better photos once the samples are in hand.
That being said, the True Red color looks really nice in these photos when powdercoated - this is an "early bird" only limited edition color offering and is an extra cost option (silver gray is the same thing).
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Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 09 August 2016, 23:21:31
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 09 August 2016, 23:45:56
Post by: henz on Wed, 10 August 2016, 03:15:54
Post by: raymogi on Wed, 10 August 2016, 07:05:51
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 10 August 2016, 07:07:34
Post by: joey on Wed, 10 August 2016, 07:18:25
right Joey.Red
And here is an update on the case molds. The factory has finally completed their draft powdercoating and color mixing of all color options and will be mailing me the sample case parts this week.
Please note that the colors below are not at all accurate and I hope to take better photos once the samples are in hand.
That being said, the True Red color looks really nice in these photos when powdercoated - this is an "early bird" only limited edition color offering and is an extra cost option (silver gray is the same thing).
(Attachment Link)
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Black
Indsutrial
?whatcolouristhat?
Beige
Post by: juahenza on Wed, 10 August 2016, 08:34:19
Post by: jorgenslee on Wed, 10 August 2016, 09:02:21
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 10 August 2016, 20:20:48
jorgenslee I recommend the classic original style case. The powdercoating is very solid feeling, at least on the prototype cases. I think the powdercoating can hold up for several decades like the originals, but only time will tell I guess.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 11 August 2016, 02:11:10
The colours are all looking amazing! No regrets on black either, so sexy. Although now I am thinking I might need the industrial too! :-\
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 August 2016, 07:14:11
Post by: 3K on Fri, 12 August 2016, 05:46:59
right Joey.
And here is an update on the case molds. The factory has finally completed their draft powdercoating and color mixing of all color options and will be mailing me the sample case parts this week.
Please note that the colors below are not at all accurate and I hope to take better photos once the samples are in hand.
That being said, the True Red color looks really nice in these photos when powdercoated - this is an "early bird" only limited edition color offering and is an extra cost option (silver gray is the same thing).
(Attachment Link)
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Is it just me or seems the Industrial more moss green?
Post by: raymogi on Fri, 12 August 2016, 05:53:24
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 August 2016, 06:31:32
Ray I responded.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 August 2016, 15:33:14
Other notable totals:
About 37 Industrial SSK keycap sets
4 DHL Express shipping upgrades (save a few weeks and be the among the first to get your keyboard)
About 900 extra barrels and 1,200 extra flippers and springs (everyone gets the bulk discount price throughout the end of the final round)
9 Apple/Mac Command-Option Key sets
29 extra inner foam orders
Post by: r5d on Mon, 15 August 2016, 05:33:38
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 15 August 2016, 06:05:43
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 15 August 2016, 20:03:20
Industrial Gray was a close match to my original IBM Industrial SSK plastic case; True Red and Black also came out well.
The powdercoating on the Brand New Model F keyboards is in my view an even higher quality process than that of the originals - it feels a lot more protective and less likely to flake - but time will tell I guess.
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Post by: romevi on Mon, 15 August 2016, 20:42:16
The powdercoated case samples came in today and the factory did a good job. I will be asking the factory to add a little more gray to darken the Off-White/Beige paint color, and the Silver Gray color is a little too bluish/too light.
Industrial Gray was a close match to my original IBM Industrial SSK plastic case; True Red and Black also came out well.
The powdercoating on the Brand New Model F keyboards is in my view an even higher quality process than that of the originals - it feels a lot more protective and less likely to flake - but time will tell I guess.
(Attachment Link)
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That red is so vibrant!
Post by: KetchyKech on Mon, 15 August 2016, 21:29:21
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Mon, 15 August 2016, 23:40:09
Post by: kidgyu on Tue, 16 August 2016, 01:27:21
But when I see the red/black color, I'm fall in love that.
Can I change the color of my order??
Post by: henz on Tue, 16 August 2016, 06:08:40
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 16 August 2016, 10:00:29
Are you doing some brilliant white sets and different colored legends?
Post by: romevi on Tue, 16 August 2016, 11:02:07
I have a question about the keys. Where do you order them and what colors are you doing? I didn't even know you was doing XT style keys.
Are you doing some brilliant white sets and different colored legends?
Unicomp sells the keycaps: http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 August 2016, 16:59:28
Unicomp will be supplying most of the custom sets and keys like brilliant white, etc.
henz I re-sent your order confirmation.
Post by: henz on Wed, 17 August 2016, 13:23:13
Ir0n I am making the keys. The key options are on the following page on the web site: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/set-of-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/
Unicomp will be supplying most of the custom sets and keys like brilliant white, etc.
henz I re-sent your order confirmation.
SUWEET
Thanks
Post by: jorgenslee on Wed, 17 August 2016, 21:43:05
jorgenslee I recommend the classic original style case. The powdercoating is very solid feeling, at least on the prototype cases. I think the powdercoating can hold up for several decades like the originals, but only time will tell I guess.
Thanks, until when is the deadline for orders that is expected to be shipped on October/November?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 August 2016, 22:03:20
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 20 August 2016, 11:11:36
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 August 2016, 20:59:22
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 24 August 2016, 05:30:55
Here are the very first of the factory-made compact xwhatsit PCBs! Production of the compact xwhatsit controllers has finished but the capacitive PCBs are not yet ready. This photo shows two assembled with components and one test PCB with just solder paste.
Definitely smaller than the originals ;D .
Looking great, all the pieces are coming together like some luscious meccano set. Thanks Ellipse for always providing the pics in it's progress :thumb: .
Post by: Glod on Fri, 26 August 2016, 15:26:01
i want mine nowwwwwwww
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sat, 27 August 2016, 03:13:16
man, i have pretty much quit this keyboard hobby, but of the 2 outstanding group buys (GH60 and F77) i am looking forward to my F77 more than most group buys i have been a part of over my 4+ year history at geekhack.Same! It's looking good ellipse!!! keep up the good work.
i want mine nowwwwwwww
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 27 August 2016, 20:03:33
I was looking at the expansion header of those compact xwhatsit controllers and was wondering - are there any non-IBM solenoids that you can buy today that can be directly driven by the xwhatsit controller and not needing the solenoid driver board? Maybe one that meets the power requirements, maybe a smaller one? Has anyone done this?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 30 August 2016, 18:35:12
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 31 August 2016, 20:43:04
$135,000 in orders so far!
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 01 September 2016, 03:34:07
We are 7 keyboards away from an even 300 keyboards ordered!
$135,000 in orders so far!
YIKES, 300 keyboards meaning when do you think you'll finish inspecting and checking all 300 before shipping?
Hate to see you bogged down for an entire year or two, going through all these keyboards and end up like GON, completely covered in orders that can never be completed in anyone's lifetime :o .
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 September 2016, 06:11:21
Post by: MaNiFeX on Thu, 01 September 2016, 10:48:12
I will be shipping each keyboard after testing it. I am not testing all 300 before shipping anything.
Will be most efficient. Great looking boards, BTW.
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 01 September 2016, 18:34:52
We are now looking at these leaving China in November in my estimate :(. I will not ship out anything that is below my standards for this project.
I'm fairly lost on the state of this buy. Ellipse, can you summarize what remains to be done in terms of manufacturing, assembly, and shipping? And what all the different pieces are (housing, guts, xwhatsit controller, one-piece keycaps, etc)? What is locked in and what can still be ordered. etc.
I would love it if you could post that summary here and in the other thread, and in both OPs. And can we please consider closing the other thread and conducting all business here?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 September 2016, 20:10:38
Unfortunately the die cast zinc case molds and cases have been a bottleneck these past couple months and that continues to put us behind my original schedule. We are now looking at these leaving China in November in my estimate.
I updated the OP's with this update.
As mentioned before the two threads for the most part have different content, unless the update is extra important. By mistake I posted the GB update in the IC thread (corrected now).
The IC thread focuses on ongoing new developments of the project that have not been finalized, such as gauging interest in various configurations of the ultra compact cases and general F62/F77 keyboard questions (xwhatsit controller, powdercoating, die cast zinc molds, etc.). I am still getting feedback on colors and finish options. I am looking to expand the color offerings based on anyone's suggestions (if there's extra interest, the one-time color cost can be divided among more people).
The GB thread will continue to focus on production updates and questions related to placing and modifying orders, including order options, logistics, and customizations like the limited edition True Red case color that was recently approved for production.
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 02 September 2016, 12:31:47
Sure here's the update: 9/1/16 update - we are in production: As a general update the barrels, flippers, capacitive PCBs, xwhatsit controller PCBs, case molds, and ribbon cables finished production and I need to get the die cast zinc cases themselves, the ultra compact cases, the key molds and keys themselves, and the inner assembly plates made.
Do you have any of the finished components on hand yet, or are they still waiting to be shipped?
Quote
As mentioned before the two threads for the most part have different content, unless the update is extra important. By mistake I posted the GB update in the IC thread (corrected now).
This is exactly what makes this buy so confusing. There are tons of options that were made available after the initial order period, but are described across two large threads. The status of the buy and all the options are not listed anywhere. You yourself ****ed up which thread you were supposed to post in. It's a mess.
Quote
The GB thread will continue to focus on production updates and questions related to placing and modifying orders, including order options, logistics, and customizations like the limited edition True Red case color that was recently approved for production.
Can we please get a clear listing in the OP that says the status of each piece of this project. Also what can and can't still be ordered. For example:
Quote
SUMMARY OF EVERYTHING THIS BUY INCLUDES
* Basic keyboard models
* One-piece keycaps
* Compact case
* Extra innards
* other things?
NOT YET STARTED PRODUCTION
* Ultra compact cases
* Key molds
* Inner assembly plates
Current plan is for these to enter production on DATE and be finished around DATE.
IN PRODUCTION
* Regular size cases
Current plan is for these to be finished and shipped to me by DATE.
FINISHED PRODUCTION
* barrels, flippers, etc
* PCBs
* controlers
SHIPPED TO ME
* Nothing?
ORDERS LOCKED
* Anything?
STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Single-piece keycaps
* Flippers
* Other innards
* etc.
Orders for these will close on DATE
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 02 September 2016, 21:25:21
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 September 2016, 14:35:45
SUMMARY OF EVERYTHING THIS BUY INCLUDES
* Basic keyboard models: F62, F77, Ultra Compact F62, Ultra Compact F77
* One-piece XT-style keycaps made from new molds, including Industrial SSK style blue keys - extra sets are also available separately
* Extra parts also available separately including Model F (AT) compatible barrels, flippers, cases, PCBs, inner foam, and inner assemblies
* Available layouts: ANSI: US and HHKB style with split backspace and regular non-split backspace. ISO: Vertical enter with a variety of international layout variants: Spanish, German, Nordic, French, UK, etc.
NOT YET STARTED PRODUCTION
* Ultra compact cases
* Key molds / keys / buckling springs
* Inner assembly plates
* Die cast zinc cases
* Boxes / inner foam / outside foam packaging
Current plan is for these to enter production by mid-September and be finished by end of November.
IN PRODUCTION
* Waiting for my approval on the die cast cases, then they will start production. Colors and powdercoating texture were rejected by me as being below my standards. Factory will be re-sending samples in the next week or so hopefully.
FINISHED PRODUCTION
* barrels
* flippers
* capacitive PCBs
* compact xwhatsit controllers
* case molds
* ribbon cables (to connect controllers to capacitive PCBs)
SHIPPED TO ME
* Current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me by the end of November.
ORDERS LOCKED
* Cases and other parts have been ordered, so please no major changes!
STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Everything. I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last. Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.
Post by: Jedi on Mon, 05 September 2016, 15:28:07
I feel confident that you will check as much of the received order as humanly possible and that all boards when shipped will be packed well and sent to all 300 doors when this is ready. I am anxiously awaiting but I also understand that a undertaking such as this was nothing short of a once in a lifetime shot.
If this was another cherry mx clone board, I'd have been a bit upset. I mean, please advise where another buckling spring keyboard group buy was run here on Geekhack? Or would we prefer this have been run on Massdrop???
Keep up the good work with well informed updates as have been provided.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 05 September 2016, 23:00:25
Not really sure where all the concerns are coming from.
I'm not concerned about the buy finishing, I just wanted a summary of the current status of everything. Ellipse has posted regular updates, which is great, but they are scattered across two threads and it's impossible to get a full picture of where we're at without reading both. I'm just asking for typical, simple group buy organization stuff.
Post by: romevi on Tue, 06 September 2016, 08:27:37
Thanks for responding Ellipse. If you could keep the OP updated as things change, that would be lovely. :thumb:Not really sure where all the concerns are coming from.
I'm not concerned about the buy finishing, I just wanted a summary of the current status of everything. Ellipse has posted regular updates, which is great, but they are scattered across two threads and it's impossible to get a full picture of where we're at without reading both. I'm just asking for typical, simple group buy organization stuff.
Yeah, I stopped following the progress because I couldn't tell which to follow and wanted to know the latest without preening through pages of two separate threads.
I still don't know why the IC thread is open if the GB has gone underway; seems redundant.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 September 2016, 19:18:52
I am beginning to review the dye sublimation samples (just photos for now, physical samples to follow in the coming weeks).
It is my understanding that a lot of the dye sublimation today on key caps may be done with some kind of 3D vacuum heat press with sublimation paper or sublimation film printed with inkjet printers and sublimation ink modded for these printers, as opposed to using a metal jig/holder firmly pressing the paper to the keys on an old style heat press. This may be why the legends are blurrier and less black on today's keys (also could be lower quality sublimation ink/paper/film or not letting the ink sublimate long enough). I am going to try for laser or offset printed legends on the sublimation paper/film if possible - could be what IBM did for their legends.
I want to get the dye sublimation right - if anyone has any advice or experience in this area please let me know.
Other than that, the factory is still reformulating the powdercoating paint to match the texture and colors more closely to the original IBM metal keyboards. The powdercoating texture of the samples was very professional and looked nice, but the match could be improved.
Below is the factory's first attempt for the legend quality - the placement is of course not correct. The left legend is IBM or Lexmark-printed and the right is their attempt. So far the legend quality to me looks much better than IBM/Lexmark's 1990s output, but possibly not up to the XT standards (when I see the sample caps in person in the coming weeks I will be able to better evaluate the dye sublimation quality).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 September 2016, 21:31:44
Post by: Ir0n on Mon, 19 September 2016, 22:54:08
The factory told me that they have finished the die casting for the zinc cases! Now they need to do the final CNC machining operations on those die cast cases, and then do the powdercoating. I still need to receive the powdercoating samples. I rejected the last powdercoating prototypes and they are starting from scratch - reformulating everything to get it right - color and texture.
Did you have to redo all the colors?
And are we going to see these shipped with in the next 2 months?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 September 2016, 23:05:12
Post by: MaNiFeX on Tue, 20 September 2016, 12:01:43
don't expect us to be done before the holidays at this point.
Considering all the engineering that went into this, the 'from scratch' production of each part, and the accuracy of reproducing the feel of the original, this will all be worth the wait. Great job Ellipse!
Post by: axtran on Wed, 21 September 2016, 22:17:19
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 24 September 2016, 00:28:49
They photographed each sample on top of an original IBM F 107 powdercoated case from August 1988 for comparison (I had sent them the case for them to match).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: axtran on Sat, 24 September 2016, 00:50:49
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 September 2016, 22:00:44
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 27 September 2016, 02:02:54
Godspeed Ellipse!!!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 27 September 2016, 21:01:54
Some interesting data points about US manufacturing: I also looked into the possibility of US manufacturing, at least for the compact cases. A quote from a well known US-based firm was more than five times the cost of the project's current supplier in China. A PCB manufacturing quotation I got for the xwhatsit controllers a couple years ago was about ten times as costly if I recall correctly. And given the great quality control and tolerances that the Chinese supplier has adhered to so far, it's tough to imagine the parts could be improved any further for this project.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 28 September 2016, 02:31:47
A quote from a well known US-based firm was more than five times the cost of the project's current supplier in China. A PCB manufacturing quotation I got for the xwhatsit controllers a couple years ago was about ten times as costly if I recall correctly. And given the great quality control and tolerances that the Chinese supplier has adhered to so far, it's tough to imagine the parts could be improved any further for this project.
It's the same with nearly every manufactured part for any product. Far cheaper to get it done in China, rather than doing it at home.
Shame that we can no longer compete in anything except when it comes to debt and corrupt regimes :thumb: .
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 28 September 2016, 16:21:04
Look at these nice powdercoated texture samples! The factory has finally done a good job with the samples. The industrial gray and silver gray textures could be improved a little. Of course I will get the actual samples soon for final approval.
They photographed each sample on top of an original IBM F 107 powdercoated case from August 1988 for comparison (I had sent them the case for them to match).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Looks phenomenal! Really regretting not ordering the red powdercoating. :'(
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 September 2016, 21:24:20
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 28 September 2016, 22:24:55
hashbaz I ordered extra red cases - if anyone wants to upgrade to the true red case it is still possible for the early round.
What would the cost be for an extra red case? I ordered an F77.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 September 2016, 22:36:18
The other custom color available is silver gray. There is no charge for black, off-white/beige, and industrial gray.
Since the factory charges extra tooling costs by the color to clean and set up the powdercoating machines, I do not expect more red cases to be made during the final round. You can order any remaining red cases during the final round, as I ordered extras for the early bird round.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 September 2016, 18:47:33
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 29 September 2016, 22:23:43
red case upgrades are $75 extra. Anyone interested can place an order for 75 units of the following store item and then choose free local pickup if they would like to upgrade. http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/
Just want to make sure I'm understanding -- the $75 is just for the powdercoating, right? So if I wanted a second red case, it would be $100 for the case and and $75 for the color?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 September 2016, 22:34:44
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 30 September 2016, 01:57:11
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 30 September 2016, 06:10:22
Post by: axtran on Sun, 02 October 2016, 03:34:14
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 02 October 2016, 12:02:33
You can order them here. The bottom inner assembly plate is included (everything else is interchangeable):
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-f62-case-kishsaver/
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-f77-case/
Post by: axtran on Mon, 03 October 2016, 01:39:52
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 October 2016, 16:51:41
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 October 2016, 20:29:54
United States of America 198
CA 57
TX 12
MI 12
NY 8
WA 8
CO 6
NV 5
NC 5
IL 5
KY 5
VA 5
AZ 4
OH 4
GA 4
HI 4
KS 4
NJ 4
MD 4
MA 3
FL 3
UT 3
CT 3
PA 3
MN 3
MO 3
IN 2
TN 2
WI 2
OR 2
DE 1
SD 1
MS 1
ID 1
DC 1
GU 1
LA 1
NH 1
IA 1
NE 1
WV 1
AR 1
SC 1
United Kingdom 16
Hampshire 3
South Yorkshire 2
Surrey 2
Lancashire 1
EN 1
North Yorkshire 1
Cambridgeshire 1
berkshire 1
Warwickshire 1
(blank) 1
Aberdeenshire 1
Isle of Man 1
Australia 15
QLD 5
WA 4
VIC 3
NSW 2
ACT 1
Germany 9
Sweden 8
Netherlands 6
Canada 6
AB 3
ON 1
QC 1
BC 1
Korea, Republic of 5
Finland 4
Japan 4
Spain 3
France 3
Hong Kong 3
Italy 2
Ireland 2
Switzerland 2
Belgium 2
Malaysia 2
Poland 2
Viet Nam 1
Austria 1
New Zealand 1
South Africa 1
Indonesia 1
Croatia 1
Singapore 1
Denmark 1
Grand Total 300
Post by: romevi on Tue, 04 October 2016, 20:41:11
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 04 October 2016, 21:32:46
Here is a breakdown of the number of F62 and F77 keyboards ordered by location:
Australia 15
QLD 5
WA 4
VIC 3
NSW 2
ACT 1
Just pissed off that the morons in NSW and Victoria haven't jumped on this further >:D . Plus they have the bulk of the population here in this Penal Settlement, hence what gives?
Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 04 October 2016, 22:05:43
Here is a breakdown of the number of F62 and F77 keyboards ordered by location:
Australia 15
QLD 5
WA 4
VIC 3
NSW 2
ACT 1
Just pissed off that the morons in NSW and Victoria haven't jumped on this further >:D . Plus they have the bulk of the population here in this Penal Settlement, hence what gives?
Quality over quantity, hense qld suppremacy.
Post by: Quackles on Wed, 05 October 2016, 00:02:13
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 05 October 2016, 02:35:14
I've done my part for NSW, I wonder who the other person is!
**** i actually hope thats not me i cant remember when i paid and if it was before i moved
Post by: kekstee on Wed, 05 October 2016, 06:09:52
Post by: Fictiouz on Wed, 05 October 2016, 06:24:14
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 05 October 2016, 06:40:24
Rest of the world must be scared of shipping and customs. I could buy a decent keyboard on that budget.
But you'll never find another Ellipse Model-F keyboard again. Unless some smart dude posts it on Fleabay in the future for $1000USD 8) .
Post by: Fictiouz on Wed, 05 October 2016, 06:46:50
What's up with Cali? Almost all the stuff I sell goes there. And that's including stuff from different hobbies.
I have the same thing happen. It's weird as hell.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Wed, 05 October 2016, 08:17:57
Canada 6
AB 3
ON 1
QC 1
BC 1
Woot! I'll have the only one in Quebec :cool:
Post by: cjhard on Wed, 05 October 2016, 08:29:05
KY 5
I'm not the only one! I wonder if any of the other 4 also work in the same building where the original was built? =)
Post by: U47 on Wed, 05 October 2016, 10:57:39
I've got two of the AB ones... WHO'S THE RIVAL WITH THE OTHER?Canada 6
AB 3
ON 1
QC 1
BC 1
Woot! I'll have the only one in Quebec :cool:
Post by: axtran on Thu, 06 October 2016, 06:57:08
Sorry, the only case options are the original case and ultra compact case. There is no low profile case. They are both about the same height.
I meant the ultra compact case. Should I email you/PM you about switching from the original case or can you just make the adjustment? :)
Post by: Phinnegan on Thu, 06 October 2016, 10:23:12
What's up with Cali? Almost all the stuff I sell goes there. And that's including stuff from different hobbies.
I was surprised at first, but the combo of highest population and lots of disposable income probably does the trick.
Post by: jeffbolton on Thu, 06 October 2016, 20:05:10
What's up with Cali? Almost all the stuff I sell goes there. And that's including stuff from different hobbies.
California's economy is one of the biggest in the world somewhere in the top 5 typically. About the size of France. That with a diverse population, a lot of stuff goes to CA. What is interesting is that when CA regulates something it usually changes the whole country. For example car emissions.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 October 2016, 21:57:42
Post by: Meowsaur on Tue, 11 October 2016, 14:17:25
United Kingdom 16
(blank) 1
Which county got nuked off the face of the UK since ordering?
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 12 October 2016, 04:58:46
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 12 October 2016, 10:31:47
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 13 October 2016, 17:24:04
They are still rough around the edges at this point. After they are die cast, they need to do some machining, polishing, and then powdercoating (they are currently doing these secondary operations to the cases).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 17 October 2016, 22:43:22
They are creating the molds and setting up the tooling on their machines, then they create the samples for my approval, then they produce and assemble the remaining parts for the production run.
Here is the very first prototype ultra compact F62 case as it appeared out of the CNC machine - just the raw aluminum - not cleaned up just yet!
Please note that they are not finished! The scratches and marks must be removed with secondary CNC machining operations and then the hard anodized coat will be applied either in black or standard gray.
You are looking at the back end perspective in some of the photos - that hole corresponds to the hole for the USB in the back. The USB cable can be removed from the back without opening up the keyboard.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 20 October 2016, 18:04:48
Post by: Pikly on Thu, 20 October 2016, 18:16:59
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 20 October 2016, 18:29:57
Any feedback on the rough CNC milled ultra compact case prototypes?
It looks good, nice and THICK just the way I love my women 8) .
As long as it can crush any cranium with a single swing, it's perfect in every way. This casing has to be built for survival instinct, for the future when everything goes pear-shaped.
So far it's looking good Ellipse. Can't wait to see the colours applied and presented.
Post by: KetchyKech on Sat, 22 October 2016, 12:19:45
Any feedback on the rough CNC milled ultra compact case prototypes?
It looks good, nice and THICK just the way I love my women 8) .
As long as it can crush any cranium with a single swing, it's perfect in every way. This casing has to be built for survival instinct, for the future when everything goes pear-shaped.
So far it's looking good Ellipse. Can't wait to see the colours applied and presented.
LOL, nice~~~ ;)
Looks smooth ~~~ I think I need to be in for an ultra compact, whens the latest I can order an ultra compact case, ellipse?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 October 2016, 13:26:08
Post by: ccc24 on Sat, 22 October 2016, 20:47:42
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sat, 22 October 2016, 20:55:43
What extra parts do you recommend ordering? Extra flippers, barrels, and springs anything else? I'm kind of ocd with parts and want to make sure my keybaord will last for decades.
The foam mat.
Post by: ccc24 on Sat, 22 October 2016, 22:18:44
What extra parts do you recommend ordering? Extra flippers, barrels, and springs anything else? I'm kind of ocd with parts and want to make sure my keybaord will last for decades.
The foam mat.
ya saw that. What is that foam actually for? What about pcb and controllers are those for sale individually as well?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 October 2016, 22:46:26
To make it easier I am waiving extra shipping charges if anyone wants to place another order just for extra parts. I will combine orders if you order anything in the next month or two - you can just choose "free local pickup" for the next order. However if you order an extra keyboard you'd still need to cover shipping.
Yes you can order an extra PCB which includes the controller PCB and the capacitive PCB. For this option just order 40 units of this product and specify which PCB you are looking for (F62/F77, normal/split shift/scumnc layout). http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/
Post by: ccc24 on Sat, 22 October 2016, 23:33:04
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
To make it easier I am waiving extra shipping charges if anyone wants to place another order just for extra parts. I will combine orders if you order anything in the next month or two - you can just choose "free local pickup" for the next order. However if you order an extra keyboard you'd still need to cover shipping.
Yes you can order an extra PCB which includes the controller PCB and the capacitive PCB. For this option just order 40 units of this product and specify which PCB you are looking for (F62/F77, normal/split shift/scumnc layout). http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/
ok thanks ya I might order a bunch of extra parts for the F77 i ordered. How would I combine the order for the extra parts for the f77 I ordered a while ago?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 October 2016, 23:42:14
Post by: ccc24 on Sun, 23 October 2016, 00:18:02
You can make a separate order and I will combine the orders when everything is ready to ship.
ok will do thanks. I should use the same email and information as my original order then I assume.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 23 October 2016, 00:19:03
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
Ellipse please explain this theory I have inside my head.
If all the foam was made at the same time period and twenty years into the future the foam inside your immaculate F77 keyboard starts to disintegrate, what happens with the spare foam that was bought?
Wouldn't they also start to disintegrate due to being made at the same time and I know for a fact all FOAM deteriorates over time no matter, even if they are vacuum sealed and stored away from the sun, they will still fall apart when taken out of their enclosure.
Have bought and dealt with numerous foams over the years and the only one that lasts is insulation foam that comes out of cans which have a high glass particle content.
Post by: axtran on Sun, 23 October 2016, 09:09:29
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
Ellipse please explain this theory I have inside my head.
If all the foam was made at the same time period and twenty years into the future the foam inside your immaculate F77 keyboard starts to disintegrate, what happens with the spare foam that was bought?
Wouldn't they also start to disintegrate due to being made at the same time and I know for a fact all FOAM deteriorates over time no matter, even if they are vacuum sealed and stored away from the sun, they will still fall apart when taken out of their enclosure.
Have bought and dealt with numerous foams over the years and the only one that lasts is insulation foam that comes out of cans which have a high glass particle content.
I think the oceans can help us prove that foams won't deteriorate that easily. /s LOL
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ccc24 on Sun, 23 October 2016, 11:48:41
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
Ellipse please explain this theory I have inside my head.
If all the foam was made at the same time period and twenty years into the future the foam inside your immaculate F77 keyboard starts to disintegrate, what happens with the spare foam that was bought?
Wouldn't they also start to disintegrate due to being made at the same time and I know for a fact all FOAM deteriorates over time no matter, even if they are vacuum sealed and stored away from the sun, they will still fall apart when taken out of their enclosure.
Have bought and dealt with numerous foams over the years and the only one that lasts is insulation foam that comes out of cans which have a high glass particle content.
ya that's a good point. Maybe store it in a ziplock bag in the closet or something. Like to get Ellipse input on this as well.
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 23 October 2016, 11:58:30
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 October 2016, 12:34:49
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 23 October 2016, 21:17:53
I have looked up different foam manufacturer specifications and have seen that some types of foam can survive years if unused/uncompressed. That is why I suggest keeping an unused foam for later. And yes ccc it might be a good idea to keep the extra foam in a cold place, in a sealed bag. No one knows for sure how long the McMaster Carr foam used in this project will last.
I'll still buy another two pieces of foam as spares BUT I thought of using their shape to trace out and cut a spare "sorbothane" like sheet to use inside my F77.
I've used sorbothane feet under heavy Sub-woofers around the home and they were placed under their 20kgs of weight for more than five years and the feet still retain their original shapes when extracted. Can't believe that a man-made product can endure so long and provide complete isolation of audio equipment tremors from the concrete floors.
Shall be using a sheet soon to see how it performs, because it's a very tough material that refuses to be squashed into oblivion by any weight but still retains very soft actuation when forced.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 October 2016, 17:40:08
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 26 October 2016, 17:58:35
That material is expensive Elrick!
I know BUT it's the ONLY man-made product that never deforms over time. Even when it's covered in dirt, oil, petrol, diesel or grease the Sorbothane survives intact which still surprises me, out where I work.
Hence spending the money on one sorbothane pad will probably outlast the switches inside your Model-F keyboard. For myself, it comes down to how long this keyboard will last and I seriously want this F77 to out live me.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 October 2016, 17:50:48
And we are 2 or 3 orders away from $150,000! Orders continue to be accepted for the early bird round!
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Post by: romevi on Thu, 27 October 2016, 17:56:04
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 October 2016, 18:08:33
IN PRODUCTION
* Ultra compact cases
* Key molds / keys / buckling springs
* Inner assembly plates
* Boxes / inner foam / outside foam packaging
* Powdercoating for the original style cases
FINISHED PRODUCTION
* barrels
* flippers
* Die cast zinc cases (they have not yet been powdercoated)
* capacitive PCBs
* compact xwhatsit controllers
* case molds
* ribbon cables (to connect controllers to capacitive PCBs)
SHIPPED TO ME
* Current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me in December or January.
ORDERS LOCKED
* Cases and other parts have been ordered, so please no major changes!
STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Everything. I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last. Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 27 October 2016, 18:18:21
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 30 October 2016, 14:37:35
These compact PCBs will be included in all F62 and F77 keyboards, not just the compact versions.
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Post by: axtran on Mon, 31 October 2016, 06:41:32
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 October 2016, 17:49:38
Post by: axtran on Mon, 31 October 2016, 18:01:10
it is the xwhatsit Model F USB controller - more info here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ and here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb-web/ibm-capsense-usb.html
Got the controller model handy?
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Post by: kawasaki161 on Mon, 31 October 2016, 18:04:50
it is the xwhatsit Model F USB controller - more info here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ and here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb-web/ibm-capsense-usb.html
Got the controller model handy?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ATmega32U2
Post by: axtran on Mon, 31 October 2016, 18:37:57
Time to reverse engineer and port to TMK once I get mine in. :)
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 October 2016, 22:16:29
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 November 2016, 11:12:30
Post by: axtran on Sat, 05 November 2016, 15:53:34
Please do share on this thread if you are able to get TMK working on xwhatsit's controller.
Will do! Let me know if you have extra controllers so I can have an experimenting one. Might need to reflash boot loader, things like that.
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Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 10 November 2016, 18:48:13
Post by: atlas3686 on Fri, 11 November 2016, 03:23:56
Not sure if this was mentioned before but the factory is going ahead with the high quality double walled cardboard boxes with the printed project graphics.
Cannot wait to see my brand new model F in its box!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 November 2016, 15:06:06
Post by: RocketGruntJake on Fri, 11 November 2016, 15:24:35
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 November 2016, 15:29:13
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 15 November 2016, 22:55:44
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 16 November 2016, 02:34:16
We've passed $155,000 in orders!
And who said no body wants Model-Fs any more ;D .
We are now living in a Keyboard Renaissance Movement where a lot more people are interested in historical keyboards. You've got past technologies that the younger generation are eager to find out about and own a part of this.
Also it's the ONLY United States key switch designed for the public to use, so it's worth resurrecting this again to see the effect it will have on all those addicted to the standard which has become CherryMX based. Get them to use something far better and worship something again from the past brought back to Life.
You should call this Keyboard a Phoenix Version.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 16 November 2016, 03:36:56
We've passed $155,000 in orders!
And who said no body wants Model-Fs any more ;D .
We are now living in a Keyboard Renaissance Movement where a lot more people are interested in historical keyboards. You've got past technologies that the younger generation are eager to find out about and own a part of this.
Also it's the ONLY United States key switch designed for the public to use, so it's worth resurrecting this again to see the effect it will have on all those addicted to the standard which has become CherryMX based. Get them to use something far better and worship something again from the past brought back to Life.
You should call this Keyboard a Phoenix Version.
Haha I really like that, Model F Phoenix :)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 November 2016, 12:25:59
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 November 2016, 17:46:05
Also we are at $160,000 in orders!
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Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 22 November 2016, 17:53:57
Those photos made me hard.
xoxo :thumb:
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 22 November 2016, 18:20:38
You Ellipse, are a good ****.
Those photos made me hard.
xoxo :thumb:
Quite CORRECT 8) .
His pictures are now moistening my loins consistently. Need to change my shorts every time I visit this section, shame on you Ellipse for doing this to me.........
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 23 November 2016, 08:28:52
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 23 November 2016, 08:44:54
Post by: Quackles on Thu, 24 November 2016, 03:32:15
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 24 November 2016, 03:42:41
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 November 2016, 23:44:14
Overall we have 170 US ANSI, 150 HHKB style, 27 ISO, and 1 DVORAK.
166 ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)
81 HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
65 HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace
24 ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
3 ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace
1 HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI
1 ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift), HHKB with split backspace
1 HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
1 HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys
1 DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)
1 ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
1 HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift
1 ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout
1 ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift
Post by: ipreferpie on Fri, 25 November 2016, 03:43:17
Here is a breakdown of the 348 F62/F77 keyboards ordered so far, by general flipper placement/PCB type.
Overall we have 170 US ANSI, 150 HHKB style, 27 ISO, and 1 DVORAK.
166ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)
81HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
65HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace
24ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
3ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace
1HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI
1ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift), HHKB with split backspace
1HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
1HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys
1DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)
1ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
1HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift
1ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout
1ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift
Did you forget to tally my 2 Colemak Builds? ;)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 November 2016, 11:36:31
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 November 2016, 14:13:54
If anyone wants to make changes please let me know ASAP as the factory is still in production with parts for everyone's keyboards.
This is what the HHKB with split backspace will look like: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/are-there-any-photos-of-the-hhkb-layout/
Here are the other various layout options: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/please-post-photos-of-the-various-keys-options/
The HHKB split shift only option keeps everything the same as the standard Model M layout, except the right shift key is split. The other HHKB options all switch around the ctrl and caps lock keys. In addition, the HHKB with split backspace option moves around the | \, Backspace, and `~ keys as shown in the first link in this post.
Here is a description of the specific differences with HHKB layout: "For HHKB/split right shift with split backspace printed key sets, custom printed keys will be included: Delete key the size of | \, 1U size | \, stepped Ctrl/Ctrl-style Caps Lock, Caps-Lock style Shift, and 1U Fn. For the HHKB set with the non-split backspace, you will not receive the 1U | \ key and the | \-sized backspace key."
Post by: schizoidpig on Sat, 26 November 2016, 17:17:25
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 27 November 2016, 21:24:25
Please include a note of what you are looking for.
Post by: schizoidpig on Mon, 28 November 2016, 03:25:06
And by god, those cases are gorgeous. Can't wait to get my hands on mine!
Post by: thel on Tue, 29 November 2016, 05:53:17
great project!
I am interested in one modern case F77, but I would like to see some pictures first and I would like clarification whether it will be a zink or aluminum case and what colors will be available.
Do you have any news regarding this? What is the target timeframe for the modern cases?
The early bird round is still going? -what does that mean for the modern case type?
Cheers
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 29 November 2016, 17:27:22
The ultra compact modern cases are all aluminum. The originals are zinc - zinc is much heavier but both are very strong and should hold up well. For the F62/F77 keyboards (both original style and compact style cases) you're looking at several pounds of metal per keyboard: zinc/aluminum for the case and inner plates made of steel.
Orders are now open for the ultra compact cases but they are lower priority than the originals. I am prioritizing shipments by serial number, which are assigned generally in the sequence of when I receive everyone's orders.
The early bird round is almost closed, but I ordered extra keyboards for the early bird round so that if you order in the coming weeks you will likely have your order included in the early bird round.
The factory is still working on the key molds and production first-runs for some remaining parts which I need to approve before everything goes into production. I was expecting this to be finished around this point but that means we are now looking more like February or March for these keyboards to ship from China. And if the first-run samples are not good, I would rather hold up production until they pass my quality standards even if it causes further delay in the project.
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 29 November 2016, 17:32:49
The delays are good too… it'll give me some time to enjoy some other boards coming in for a few months first ;)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 29 November 2016, 20:47:45
According to the factory's most recent project management report, they now expect to finish first-runs next week and they expect to finish the molds by mid-December. Once the first-runs are in hand and fully inspected, I will post more photos and will hopefully be able to approve production to continue.
Post by: thel on Wed, 30 November 2016, 02:16:08
Keep up the great work!
Yes here are prototype photos - the compact cases in these photos are not finished yet! https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59umff/photos_hundreds_of_brand_new_model_f_keyboard_f62/?st=iw44m1mb&sh=4435d339
The ultra compact modern cases are all aluminum. The originals are zinc - zinc is much heavier but both are very strong and should hold up well. For the F62/F77 keyboards (both original style and compact style cases) you're looking at several pounds of metal per keyboard: zinc/aluminum for the case and inner plates made of steel.
Orders are now open for the ultra compact cases but they are lower priority than the originals. I am prioritizing shipments by serial number, which are assigned generally in the sequence of when I receive everyone's orders.
The early bird round is almost closed, but I ordered extra keyboards for the early bird round so that if you order in the coming weeks you will likely have your order included in the early bird round.
The factory is still working on the key molds and production first-runs for some remaining parts which I need to approve before everything goes into production. I was expecting this to be finished around this point but that means we are now looking more like February or March for these keyboards to ship from China. And if the first-run samples are not good, I would rather hold up production until they pass my quality standards even if it causes further delay in the project.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 30 November 2016, 03:20:38
Yes here are prototype photos - the compact cases in these photos are not finished yet! https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59umff/photos_hundreds_of_brand_new_model_f_keyboard_f62/?st=iw44m1mb&sh=4435d339
The ultra compact modern cases are all aluminum. The originals are zinc - zinc is much heavier but both are very strong and should hold up well. For the F62/F77 keyboards (both original style and compact style cases) you're looking at several pounds of metal per keyboard: zinc/aluminum for the case and inner plates made of steel.
Orders are now open for the ultra compact cases but they are lower priority than the originals. I am prioritizing shipments by serial number, which are assigned generally in the sequence of when I receive everyone's orders.
The early bird round is almost closed, but I ordered extra keyboards for the early bird round so that if you order in the coming weeks you will likely have your order included in the early bird round.
The factory is still working on the key molds and production first-runs for some remaining parts which I need to approve before everything goes into production. I was expecting this to be finished around this point but that means we are now looking more like February or March for these keyboards to ship from China. And if the first-run samples are not good, I would rather hold up production until they pass my quality standards even if it causes further delay in the project.
Thanks for the update Ellipse and as Riot said it's much easier to accept delays when you have all the info. Such an exciting project!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 November 2016, 17:54:44
Yep, now I see why many Kickstarter-type projects with intricate parts can take a year or longer for production!
Post by: Glod on Tue, 06 December 2016, 13:57:59
thanks for the updates
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 09 December 2016, 16:52:50
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 December 2016, 00:53:44
Caution - raw steel!
Please note that the parts are not yet finished/in hand for my inspection - they are not powdercoated and have not been anodized as they will be for the final production - they are still in their rough "test" condition!
Especially nice is the very first factory stamped Model F foam in over 20 years! You'll notice their first one has a small mistake in the location of the opening for one of the top inner assembly tabs.
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Post by: dante on Mon, 12 December 2016, 08:52:47
Post by: riotonthebay on Mon, 12 December 2016, 08:55:29
Will these keyboards need bolt modding down the road?
No, I don't believe Model Fs (capacitive bucking spring) ever needed bolt modding as they're built differently than Model Ms (membrane bucking spring).
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 12 December 2016, 11:11:41
Will these keyboards need bolt modding down the road?
They don't have plastic rivets holding them together like the Model M.
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 12 December 2016, 12:49:39
Sign me up for two.
Post by: dgneo on Mon, 12 December 2016, 12:52:30
This will be really fantastic in the next iteration. Lighter springs, cherry MX mount, slimmer abs cases.
Sign me up for two.
(http://i.imgur.com/OgsWogD.gif)
Post by: Damonskv on Mon, 12 December 2016, 15:21:47
This will be really fantastic in the next iteration. Lighter springs, cherry MX mount, slimmer abs cases.This is a joke? If not a joke, I am a little scared
Sign me up for two.
Post by: romevi on Mon, 12 December 2016, 15:32:19
This will be really fantastic in the next iteration. Lighter springs, cherry MX mount, slimmer abs cases.
Sign me up for two.
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=145947;type=avatar)
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 12 December 2016, 15:38:12
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 December 2016, 16:46:31
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 12 December 2016, 19:21:59
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
Highly captivating, nothing more beautiful than the feel of Model-F keys and when they finally get shipped to their customers you will get never ending praise and worship once again, for this fine piece of keyboard technology.
Hoping Trumpie will fuel a new Manufacturing boom in the US of A to help bolster Unicomp into a better situation here to help promote American Built Products. You lot suffered greatly under previous moronic regimes, that punished anyone for building anything on home soil. Time for the United States to get back into making something more than just bombs and bullets again.
Really looking forward to vital history being made here. Thank you Ellipse because it all comes down to YOU for making this happen.
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 12 December 2016, 22:13:21
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 12 December 2016, 22:27:55
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 13 December 2016, 02:09:50
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Post by: romevi on Tue, 13 December 2016, 08:39:05
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Evolution is fixing mistakes. What you're asking is creating mistakes.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Tue, 13 December 2016, 10:59:28
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Evolution is fixing mistakes. What you're asking is creating mistakes.
Yeah really. There is a reason Ellipse took on this project. He is recreating some great and highly desirable keyboards what you want him to do is far from evolution giorgio.
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 13 December 2016, 11:25:49
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Evolution is fixing mistakes. What you're asking is creating mistakes.
Yeah really. There is a reason Ellipse took on this project. He is recreating some great and highly desirable keyboards what you want him to do is far from evolution giorgio.
deleted
Post by: nickheller on Tue, 13 December 2016, 11:28:42
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Tue, 13 December 2016, 11:32:01
IBM caps have bars right?
:)) :))
Post by: supamesican on Tue, 13 December 2016, 12:29:35
If I order extra foam for down the road, will the foam come with the holes in it or will I have to make them myself? And will the flippers be any different from those in the f xt? I am on the fence about ordering those, but I have an xt with a bork'd controller in it I can just use for parts instead of ordering 77 spare and save a few bucks if need be. Would you recommend ordering some extra barrels? And this one is for a friend who i am trying to rope into ordering one of these too buthe has no GH account(yet), how much extra is a custom case color?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 13 December 2016, 19:39:52
Custom case colors (True Red or regular Gray) for the original style cases are $75 each extra. There are no available custom colors for the ultra compact cases, which are available in hard anodized black or hard anodized standard gray.
Post by: supamesican on Wed, 14 December 2016, 12:01:59
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 14 December 2016, 19:07:23
Yes the foam is equally important to the spare small barrels/flippers/springs because we do not yet know how long the foam's useful life will be.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 17 December 2016, 15:28:27
The factory needs an extra week from their scheduled shipment of the first-run parts for my inspection. The key molds need some more work to make sure they produce parts to spec. Hopefully the first-runs ship next week.
Below are some photos of the F62/F77 original style cases palletized and ready for storage at the factory. These are heavy boxes! They put 8 per box, so each box probably weighs 40-50 pounds - just the cases!
Once all of the parts have finished assembly and the factory QC procedures and have been packed for storage, then the factory will bring all the boxes together and assemble the keyboards with the configuration options specified in everyone's order forms.
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Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 17 December 2016, 16:19:23
An update - we are three keyboards away from passing $170,000 in orders!
The factory needs an extra week from their scheduled shipment of the first-run parts for my inspection. The key molds need some more work to make sure they produce parts to spec. Hopefully the first-runs ship next week.
Below are some photos of the F62/F77 original style cases palletized and ready for storage at the factory. These are heavy boxes! They put 8 per box, so each box probably weighs 40-50 pounds - just the cases!
Once all of the parts have finished assembly and the factory QC procedures and have been packed for storage, then the factory will bring all the boxes together and assemble the keyboards with the configuration options specified in everyone's order forms.
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I see mine, all the way on the left, bottom row! :p
Thank you for sharing progress. I wasn't even expecting an update but here it is already. Unlike certain other group buys that have issues and I haven't heard from in months now... you know who you are.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 21 December 2016, 05:03:56
Edit: Ellipse did you end up getting a split right shift in black??? If so I might have to assemble mine with that.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 21 December 2016, 11:36:37
Post by: Phenix on Thu, 22 December 2016, 02:55:13
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 22 December 2016, 02:57:10
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 22 December 2016, 06:03:27
Yes you can order a black split right shift (1.75U) key as part of the HHKB set.Nice... Where should I message you about getting mine with that setup... I ordered enough parts to do both, but I think I went with none split shift HHKB split bckspace.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 22 December 2016, 09:21:36
Phenix the price is the same for the HHKB set and the single 1.75U key. I have to pay for the cost of the 1.75U mold :)
Post by: Phenix on Thu, 22 December 2016, 09:46:16
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 22 December 2016, 14:46:59
Post by: Want on Thu, 22 December 2016, 18:25:53
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 22 December 2016, 21:53:02
You are right Want - I had to do a site software upgrade today. The shipping charge now appears on the checkout page after you enter your billing/shipping address.
Here is the order breakdown as of today - 368 keyboards!
Compact F62 20
Compact F77 32
F62 141
F77 175
Here is a breakdown of accessories ordered:
Extra Flipper and Spring 1442
Extra Barrel 1122
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 101
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 49
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 42
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 36
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122) 34
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 23
Extra F77 Case 17
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver" 16
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 14
Extra PCB 5
Extra top inner assembly 3
Extra box + protective custom foam 1
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 23 December 2016, 12:45:56
We also have photos of the compact case F62 and F77 test assembly and packaging!
Please note that the cases have not yet all been hard anodized (one bottom case has been hard anodized, shown below) - the production finish will not look like the other photos.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 23 December 2016, 12:50:22
Filing under things I might spend my maybe/maybe not tax return on o_o;
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 23 December 2016, 17:33:48
(Attachment Link)
The packaging is superb, subtle yet bold.
Letting the whole world know something special is inside, as always Ellipse your posts have indeed festered a growing love for the buckling spring and it all came down to you for starting this whole adventure.
Post by: dante on Fri, 23 December 2016, 19:11:05
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 25 December 2016, 14:04:07
The metal space bar tabs have been welded onto the top inner assembly - this is an upgrade from the brittle plastic tabs found on the original Model F's.
The foam molds have been completed and the first run samples are finished. The samples look a bit dirty but the final ones will not be!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: steveachu on Tue, 27 December 2016, 05:46:31
1) Is the USB cable detachable/replaceable?
2) For the HHKB style backspace and split shift, will the backspace be above the enter button like the HHKB or still in the original position above the "\"? And I'm assuming the split-shift places the function key to the right of the shift?
Thanks! :)
Post by: jknight on Tue, 27 December 2016, 06:52:46
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 27 December 2016, 06:57:44
What is a flipper?Someone who works down at a Pizzeria ;D .
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 27 December 2016, 10:21:52
steve - yes the USB is detachable and replaceable - it is a micro USB cable. And here's an approximate look at the expected HHKB style layout: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/are-there-any-photos-of-the-hhkb-layout/
Yep the 1U function key is to the right of right shift for the HHKB style layout option.
Post by: steveachu on Tue, 27 December 2016, 20:44:28
jknight-replied over PM
steve - yes the USB is detachable and replaceable - it is a micro USB cable. And here's an approximate look at the expected HHKB style layout: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/are-there-any-photos-of-the-hhkb-layout/
Yep the 1U function key is to the right of right shift for the HHKB style layout option.
Man, this looks great.
Just put up my HHKB for sale to get some funds for this. :D
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 27 December 2016, 21:11:26
Just put up my HHKB for sale to get some funds for this. :D
Smart man for doing it, always get rid of any foul HHKB in da house.
Make way for something FAR superior in every way :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 December 2016, 13:45:15
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 28 December 2016, 14:43:53
The DHL Express shipment containing the sample boxes, foam, springs, and compact case keyboard prototypes has arrived! Doing the testing now...
I've got something to say. I've loved how often you update the thread even when things slow down. This has been one of the least stressful GB's I've been part of because of the communication.
And for that, I thank you. :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 December 2016, 21:35:39
The video at the bottom shows the unboxing, teardown, and typing test where I reached 100 WPM on the compact F62 and 90+ on the second test with the compact F77.
The keyboards will not look like the photos below! The cases are just the raw aluminum and do not have the hard anodized finishing. The keys are Unicomp - the new key molds are not yet ready. Please see the two metal bottom case sheets that are what the regular gray and black hard anodized options will look like. The factory did a great job on the hard anodizing - very high end looking!
The first-runs are an important part of the manufacturing process even though they add some time to the process. I have two pages of feedback for the factory so far on small improvements. You can see some of the areas that need improvement:
-Adding more holes to the compact cases to ensure a near-gapless fit between the case parts
-The top inner assembly holes for the barrels were about 0.2mm too large
-The boxes need to be a little bigger to fit the extra parts (keys, etc.)
-The boxes should have dark blue text, not black
-The bezel has too much space above the top row of keys compared to the bottom row
-The factory did not send the most recent update of the top inner assembly incorporating some small adjustments
-Flat top screws countersunk into the case should have been used everywhere
-Need better QC on the springs to match the specifications
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: duface on Thu, 29 December 2016, 21:38:29
The working Compact Case F62 and F77 keyboard first-runs pass inspection!Woah the compact case looks pretty sweet. Trying to convince myself that I don't need one...
A video will be up in a few hours including an unboxing, teardown, and typing test where I reached 100 WPM on the compact F62 and 90+ on the second test with the compact F77.
The keyboards will not look like the photos below! The cases are just the raw aluminum and do not have the hard anodized finishing. The keys are Unicomp - the new key molds are not yet ready. Please see the two metal bottom case sheets that are what the regular gray and black hard anodized options will look like. The factory did a great job on the hard anodizing - very high end looking!
The first-runs are an important part of the manufacturing process even though they add some time to the process. I have two pages of feedback for the factory so far on small improvements. You can see some of the areas that need improvement:
-Adding more holes to the compact cases to ensure a near-gapless fit between the case parts
-The top inner assembly holes for the barrels were about 0.2mm too large
-The boxes need to be a little bigger to fit the extra parts (keys, etc.)
-The boxes should have dark blue text, not black
-The bezel has too much space above the top row of keys compared to the bottom row
-The factory did not send the most recent update of the top inner assembly incorporating some small adjustments
-Flat top screws countersunk into the case should have been used everywhere
-Need better QC on the springs to match the specifications
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 29 December 2016, 22:37:09
The working Compact Case F62 and F77 keyboard first-runs pass inspection!
(Attachment Link)
As much as I appreciate the efforts you've gone through to try and encapsulate the American Tradition into an all Aluminium Casing it still looks far better in the original casing done in Zinc.
Suppose you could call me a traditionalist and I make no apologies here for being that way BUT I only love the original proposal for this keyboard because it looks 99.9% like an original model done way back in the golden era of Model-F production.
Also your original design is far superior to the latest one which looks like some cheapo Yum-Cha design suitable only for bottom of the barrel keyboards. See what happens when you start messing around with perfection you start to distort good taste and appropriate behaviour 8) .
Far better to stick with what works perfectly instead of now making weird looking keyboards that don't look like anything except another Flebay Model done for the Gamer masses.
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 30 December 2016, 00:37:54
So so cool.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 01 January 2017, 09:24:19
We passed $175,000 in orders!
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 02 January 2017, 18:55:50
Also on these here (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/) blue industrial keys, is it possible to get them as just the wasd and arrow keys or only as shown? And how much would that be?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 02 January 2017, 20:18:59
Yes that should be doable - you can order 20 units of the "other customizations in $1 increments" and choose other shipping. Please make a note that you want the wasd and arrow keys in blue.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 02 January 2017, 23:18:55
Yep the modern cases look good and they are also quite solid despite being much lighter.
We passed $175,000 in orders!
Again for the old and feeble here, what are the colours available for this NEW Aluminium Casing?
Is there a deadline for the colours specified or do you need extra time to apply them (anodizing aluminium) ?
YOU never specified anything on the FRONT page of this Group Buy about these NEW Aluminium Cases or even their available colours. ALWAYS provide the info on the front page so you'll have far less of me bothering you about the colours you want to apply.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 January 2017, 23:19:01
Case color options: off-white/beige (to match the originals), Industrial Gray (to match the Industrial SSK), black, silver gray, and Pantone True Red powdercoated paint (original cases); hard anodized black, hard anodized regular gray (ultra compact cases)
I am thinking of making a separate landing page with more photos and with a more modern site layout. A marketing professional sent me this link as an example style to consider: https://britishrailmanual.com/
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 05 January 2017, 10:05:52
Post by: U47 on Thu, 05 January 2017, 11:51:15
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Thu, 05 January 2017, 12:09:26
Just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a "repair kit" option to purchase which contained all the things you recommend we stock up on for future servicing of the board (10 barrels, 10 flippers, foam, etc). I still don't really know what I should be getting for that purpose (I'm new to the buckling spring game).
Nice idea. I would probably add one to my order if there was a noob-friendly kit like this.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 05 January 2017, 16:55:06
Just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a "repair kit" option to purchase which contained all the things you recommend we stock up on for future servicing of the board (10 barrels, 10 flippers, foam, etc). I still don't really know what I should be getting for that purpose (I'm new to the buckling spring game).
Nice idea. I would probably add one to my order if there was a noob-friendly kit like this.
Would buy such a kit especially since I'm still a noob around Model-Fs. A kit like this would be extremely valuable in any emergency situation.
Post by: supamesican on Fri, 06 January 2017, 15:44:00
Just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a "repair kit" option to purchase which contained all the things you recommend we stock up on for future servicing of the board (10 barrels, 10 flippers, foam, etc). I still don't really know what I should be getting for that purpose (I'm new to the buckling spring game).
Nice idea. I would probably add one to my order if there was a noob-friendly kit like this.
Would buy such a kit especially since I'm still a noob around Model-Fs. A kit like this would be extremely valuable in any emergency situation.
I would add whatever I dont already have for it to my order if there was a list of recommended stuff like that.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 06 January 2017, 16:54:48
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 06 January 2017, 20:12:34
thanks Elrick, I have added the following to the home page:
Case color options: off-white/beige (to match the originals), Industrial Gray (to match the Industrial SSK), black, silver gray, and Pantone True Red powdercoated paint (original cases); hard anodized black, hard anodized regular gray (ultra compact cases)
I am thinking of making a separate landing page with more photos and with a more modern site layout. A marketing professional sent me this link as an example style to consider: https://britishrailmanual.com/
So the modern case has 2 colors to choose?
Am I reading that right?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 06 January 2017, 20:21:26
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 08 January 2017, 23:04:25
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
Sounds good to me! I will have to get one orderd, thanks Ellipse :thumb:
Post by: atlas3686 on Mon, 09 January 2017, 02:12:23
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
Sounds like a great idea! I think I pretty much ordered this in extras already but nice to have it as a single kit.
Post by: mumford on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:19:23
Post by: supamesican on Tue, 10 January 2017, 19:39:34
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/do you sell just the stabilizers? I already have everything else but the bumpers(which I dont care about) on my order.
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 January 2017, 20:16:09
Post by: U47 on Wed, 11 January 2017, 00:01:38
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Fantastic! 👏
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 January 2017, 18:33:01
[attachimg=1]
The factory is still re-making the springs. The last batch they sent were not to spec. I hope to get the hard anodized compact case samples and springs in the coming weeks (though we are almost near the Chinese New Year holiday which is a few weeks long - all the factory work just about stops).
Post by: RocketGruntJake on Thu, 12 January 2017, 19:11:04
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 January 2017, 19:31:07
Post by: PriusProblems on Fri, 13 January 2017, 08:21:16
Post by: jhoang on Fri, 13 January 2017, 14:33:11
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 14 January 2017, 14:15:54
Great jhoang!
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 14 January 2017, 19:32:15
Prius, factory delays have continued this month and we are near the start of the Chinese New Year holiday, where the factories close down for several weeks. Therefore I expect to extend the deadline.
Great jhoang!
Special time of the Year since most of the earth's population will be celebrating it :thumb: .
Don't worry when the keyboards and extra gear are shipped because we are in it for the LONG haul. Currently we are just biding our time for this ancient wonder to finally appear and be shipped to all our places around the globe.
Due to the Quality that shall be invested within these keyboards we are well aware of waiting for this in line like at any Rolling Stones gig, because it might be the very last one ever held but it shall be memorable for decades ahead 8) .
Post by: steveachu on Sun, 15 January 2017, 06:04:15
Prius, factory delays have continued this month and we are near the start of the Chinese New Year holiday, where the factories close down for several weeks. Therefore I expect to extend the deadline.Great to hear! Can't afford it right now since I'm broke. But I'm looking forward to landing my first full-time programming job either this month or next month, so if you do manage to extend it past Jan 31st, I would be ecstatic. :D
Great jhoang!
PS: A bit silly, but any chance of uploading some sound tests with a closer mic/cam? I love listening to sound tests you have, but kind of hard to hear for me.
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sun, 15 January 2017, 06:21:53
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 January 2017, 08:45:33
steve, the sounds of the prototypes are not representative of the final sounds. I hope to upload more videos once I have all "QC approved" parts in hand. You'll definitely be able to order next month at this point.
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sun, 15 January 2017, 09:00:17
Correct, I no longer accept PayPal. I accept bank/debit cards, credit cards, and prepaid cards.
Guess I'll have to get a debit card just for this in that case :(
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 January 2017, 09:03:35
Post by: 3K on Mon, 16 January 2017, 14:25:31
Correct, I no longer accept PayPal. I accept bank/debit cards, credit cards, and prepaid cards.
Guess I'll have to get a debit card just for this in that case :(
I for example simply paid by bank transfer, from Germany to US.
Edit: Paid by CC, sorry.
Post by: jknight on Tue, 17 January 2017, 07:08:31
Quote
I for example simply paid by bank transfer, from Germany to US. If i remember correctly there wasn't even a fee, i'd just ask your bank of choice if this is possible!
What are customs like for Germany? Here in Portugal, they run about 50% of the item value.
Post by: kishy on Wed, 18 January 2017, 12:21:53
This thread. I approve. OMG.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 18 January 2017, 12:22:18
I would just like to say:
This thread. I approve. OMG.
:eek:
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 January 2017, 16:37:00
Great kishy! If you or anyone else comes across an original Kishsaver for sale please let me know so I can add it to my collection and so I can compare the reproductions against the original.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 18 January 2017, 17:02:00
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
Thanks! I picked up a kit.
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 19 January 2017, 00:28:30
Post by: 3K on Thu, 19 January 2017, 15:44:33
QuoteI for example simply paid by bank transfer, from Germany to US. If i remember correctly there wasn't even a fee, i'd just ask your bank of choice if this is possible!
What are customs like for Germany? Here in Portugal, they run about 50% of the item value.
Actually I just remembered that I paid with a Credit Card, which i charged by Bank Transfer...
I do not know about Transfer fees unfortunately. Usually it is not that hard to get yourself a Credit Card, sometimes your Bank even offers one along the Bank Account with low activity charge. So I'd try this.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 20 January 2017, 22:59:31
Post by: HighPlainsDrafter on Sun, 22 January 2017, 00:25:05
Ellipse, once boards are shipping and you start to get your life back, do you fancy re-creating the M15 - sorry I meant the F15?
Or dare we even dream someday, some way, for a low-profile, ANSI-layout beamspring!?
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 22 January 2017, 02:30:21
Ellipse, once boards are shipping and you start to get your life back, do you fancy re-creating the M15 - sorry I meant the F15?
Or dare we even dream someday, some way, for a low-profile, ANSI-layout beamspring!?
First things first - we need the Model-Fs to be done successfully here BEFORE we start insisting upon any type of Beamspring project.
Never start dreaming about something else when the current investment hasn't eventuated yet. My accountant always reminds me of this vital fact.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 January 2017, 09:56:17
Post by: esquilax on Mon, 23 January 2017, 14:19:49
Post by: HighPlainsDrafter on Mon, 23 January 2017, 20:13:10
Sorry, just F62 and F77 as I said before.
Elrick: Who was "insisting"? Not me. No need to mis-characterize what I wrote and double-down your lecture on obvious points :)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 23 January 2017, 20:53:19
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 23 January 2017, 22:35:39
Sorry, just F62 and F77 as I said before.
Elrick: Who was "insisting"? Not me. No need to mis-characterize what I wrote and double-down your lecture on obvious points :)
Just going with what you posted here sunshine. If you can not enunciate yourself clearly, why blame others for mistake :p ?
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 25 January 2017, 00:04:07
Sorry, just F62 and F77 as I said before.
Thanks. Sorry, I probably read it and forgot, or didn't read it or... something - my bad.
I hope you took the request as a compliment.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 26 January 2017, 19:18:33
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 26 January 2017, 20:15:17
The new batch of springs arrived this week from the factory, but they are 0.3mm too small and have been rejected. I hope to get more samples when everyone returns from the Chinese New Year holiday in a couple weeks.
Don't worry they will send the right springs eventually :thumb: .
Post by: kmba on Mon, 30 January 2017, 18:35:40
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 30 January 2017, 19:44:43
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 30 January 2017, 20:19:08
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
Model-M through work - YEARS ago at my Workshop and the Model-F, through YOU with the F77 :thumb: .
Post by: kmba on Mon, 30 January 2017, 23:16:13
Great thanks tameone!
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
Family purchased a PC with a model M board in 1989 that I've used daily every since. Never had a since thing happen to it through 27 years and countless moves. Still rock solid and flawless. Also acquired an 1986 shortly after that sits on a shelf.
Post by: R4WBIT on Tue, 31 January 2017, 16:29:06
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 31 January 2017, 16:43:51
Post by: Phenix on Tue, 31 January 2017, 16:45:36
Great thanks tameone!I met with someone from Deskthority.
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
He showed me some Model Ms/various other switches, and described the F-SSK project so awesome that I built one. Finished around 5 months ago - Types so nice!
(meanwhile I had Model M)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 31 January 2017, 19:44:42
Post by: user 18 on Sat, 04 February 2017, 00:40:36
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 February 2017, 16:07:41
Here's the most recent update posted on the www.modelfkeyboards.com blog:
Everyone at the factory is returning for work this week. We passed $190,000 in orders recently!
The immediate priorities are to get in hand the remaining first-run parts made to my specifications: buckling springs, top/bottom inner assembly, boxes, and the keys. After these parts have been approved, production will continue from where it left off (production has finished on the flippers, barrels, original style cases, capacitive PCB, controller PCB, ribbon cable to attach the two PCBs, and USB cables).
I don’t have a shipping deadline but am hoping for these to ship by mid-year from the factory; at this point we are waiting on them to do everything to spec. I will not approve or send out something that I would not want to use myself, something not to my specifications and level of quality.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 05 February 2017, 16:17:07
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 February 2017, 16:47:56
There have been significant production delays with the factory for this project but we are getting to be in good shape now and only have some parts left to make.
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 05 February 2017, 16:48:43
What is the point of the "have your orders in by XX/XX/XXXX" Date? Everytime the date is reached it moves up by a month... This has been going on since like October, at least.
Yeah so good to see you read through the thread before **** posting, because that is what this is. If you didn't expect/understand the reasons for the time blow out, you are probably a 12 year old that has his parents bring you the bucket whilst you grind WOW all day and hit your Amazon dash button for more Twinkies. Then complain when the delivery driver comes at the end of the day instead of the morning.
What is the point of your comment? What are you trying to achieve by posting it? How does this contribute to the GB? What answer do you want? Did you read previous answers to more constructive forms of your question?
What do you hope to gain from that post?
Ellipse answers you and tells you delays in factory, parts not up to spec, the fact that this isn't the same as calling up ducky and having them send you 100 boards fresh of the factory floor? In fact its not even the same as having a set of custom key caps made? It is far more complex.
If you just went through a bit of this thread you would probably find that information rather easily and there would be no need for this repetitive bull****, yet you managed to put in a pretty obnoxious way.
WTF do you seriously hope to gain from your post. Have you even ordered anything from this GB or are you just **** posting to get your post count up for a sale or something.
Just explain your intent by posting? Will this magically hurry up the process? Do you need validation for something? Are you annoyed? Do you feel cheated?
Look inside your soul, ask yourself "was this necessary/did it assist in any way, and if not did it contribute to anything" if the answer is no then maybe not in the future kthx.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 05 February 2017, 17:30:08
Yep Pancake please disregard the changing target dates listed on the web site. The deadline must be extended as long as there continue to be factory delays.
There have been significant production delays with the factory for this project but we are getting to be in good shape now and only have some parts left to make.
As long as I keep seeing the nice progress updates you put together I'll be happy. I understand this stuff takes a very long time and is difficult to get everything working together, right?
By the way, how do I check my order? Just realized I'm not sure how to do that.
Anyway, thanks for the updates and response Ellipse. Good luck, and keep it going!
What is the point of the "have your orders in by XX/XX/XXXX" Date? Everytime the date is reached it moves up by a month... This has been going on since like October, at least.
Yeah so good to see you read through the thread before **** posting, because that is what this is. If you didn't expect/understand the reasons for the time blow out, you are probably a 12 year old that has his parents bring you the bucket whilst you grind WOW all day and hit your Amazon dash button for more Twinkies. Then complain when the delivery driver comes at the end of the day instead of the morning.
What is the point of your comment? What are you trying to achieve by posting it? How does this contribute to the GB? What answer do you want? Did you read previous answers to more constructive forms of your question?
What do you hope to gain from that post?
Ellipse answers you and tells you delays in factory, parts not up to spec, the fact that this isn't the same as calling up ducky and having them send you 100 boards fresh of the factory floor? In fact its not even the same as having a set of custom key caps made? It is far more complex.
If you just went through a bit of this thread you would probably find that information rather easily and there would be no need for this repetitive bull****, yet you managed to put in a pretty obnoxious way.
WTF do you seriously hope to gain from your post. Have you even ordered anything from this GB or are you just **** posting to get your post count up for a sale or something.
Just explain your intent by posting? Will this magically hurry up the process? Do you need validation for something? Are you annoyed? Do you feel cheated?
Look inside your soul, ask yourself "was this necessary/did it assist in any way, and if not did it contribute to anything" if the answer is no then maybe not in the future kthx.
I simply asked a question, as is my right to do so. If you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me. But I'm not interested in getting into an argument, public or private.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 February 2017, 17:39:37
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 05 February 2017, 17:47:37
Pancake, you can check your order by looking through your emails for the order confirmation. As soon as your shipping label is printed I expect to email out the tracking number along with what you ordered.
Oh got it. Okay was having some trouble for a second (couldn't figure out who sent the email) there but I got it. Thanks! And sounds good! Looking forward to it!
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 09 February 2017, 01:08:07
I know the end date for the buy is TBD but can we get some decent warning before it does? I'm trying to figure out how to work this in and may just dive-in if need be.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 February 2017, 16:00:20
Post by: kawasaki161 on Thu, 09 February 2017, 16:16:23
What kind of warning before the end of the final round would everyone recommend?
2 months prior:
-Update this thread
1 month prior:
-Same as 2 Months prior + Post on /r/mk and /r/mm
2 Weeks Prior:
-Another update here
-Another email
1 Week Prior:
-Another post on /r/mm and /r/mk
-Daily bumps on this thread
-Daily emails (include an opt-out link in every one)
1 Day Prior:
-Punch me in the face and tell me to finally f'ing order
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 09 February 2017, 18:12:09
What kind of warning before the end of the final round would everyone recommend?
Posts here would be great.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 09 February 2017, 20:38:54
What kind of warning before the end of the final round would everyone recommend?
2 months prior:
-Update this thread
1 month prior:
-Same as 2 Months prior + Post on /r/mk and /r/mm
2 Weeks Prior:
-Another update here
-Another email
1 Week Prior:
-Another post on /r/mm and /r/mk
-Daily bumps on this thread
-Daily emails (include an opt-out link in every one)
1 Day Prior:
-Punch me in the face and tell me to finally f'ing order
Yup that sounds like it would do it.
BTW Ellipse I have another question, one that I can't clearly answer based on your website: If I ordered between Oct 30 and Nov 2, What "round" am I in? Can I get a rough (+/- 2 months is fine) estimate from you when I might expect the board ?
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Sat, 11 February 2017, 13:03:05
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 15 February 2017, 22:25:50
The factory has built the tooling to more accurately make sure all the springs are the correct dimensions - a spring that is even a little too wide may be more likely to fall off the flipper.
Post by: Dodgy on Thu, 16 February 2017, 00:59:12
Post by: olijuice on Thu, 16 February 2017, 22:35:31
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 February 2017, 22:41:05
Post by: olijuice on Thu, 16 February 2017, 22:50:47
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 18 February 2017, 13:31:17
Post by: happylacquer on Sat, 18 February 2017, 17:25:38
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 18 February 2017, 17:29:11
Post by: megahertzcoil on Sat, 18 February 2017, 17:57:38
Today I tested the very first sample keys from the brand new molds but they are not accurate enough to my CAD files, so they have all been rejected. The factory will adjust the molds and send updated samples in the coming weeks.
Oh bummer to hear. Can we get pictures anyway???
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 18 February 2017, 18:11:45
[attachimg=1]
Post by: megahertzcoil on Sat, 18 February 2017, 18:25:09
I can see why you rejected them.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 19 February 2017, 15:53:06
Wow, that's so great to see! This is such a tease.
I can see why you rejected them.
You can? What's wrong with them?
Ellipse I thought you were getting the caps from Unicomp. What happened there?
Post by: megahertzcoil on Sun, 19 February 2017, 18:44:31
You can? What's wrong with them?
There appears to be flash on the edges and the features on the stem don't seem all the detailed, kind of rounded. I can't speak to other measurements, but given those, I can see why Ellipse was concerned about matching the CAD.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 19 February 2017, 20:11:18
Yes I'm not sure why they didn't remove the flash but it won't pass muster on the production units. The features are fully detailed, probably hard to see in my photo and with white PBT, just some measurements are not within tolerance.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Mon, 20 February 2017, 03:49:46
Post by: tron on Mon, 20 February 2017, 10:41:40
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 February 2017, 10:52:36
Yes I am trying to get as many of those first aid kits in production as possible so they will be around after production ends this year.
Everyone feel free to place a separate order and choose free/other shipping and I will combine orders.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 February 2017, 23:07:56
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 21 February 2017, 00:58:04
As requested, I have started allowing down payments - $100 or more reserves your spot in line from this point onwards, instead of the end of the line a couple months from now. There's no extra cost as you just need to cover the balance when you are ready. Anyone who wants to do the down payment can order 100 units of the store item "other customizations in $1 increments" from www.modelfkeyboards.com/shop
Wait, how does this work for those of us who have already made an order?
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 21 February 2017, 01:22:39
As requested, I have started allowing down payments - $100 or more reserves your spot in line from this point onwards, instead of the end of the line a couple months from now. There's no extra cost as you just need to cover the balance when you are ready. Anyone who wants to do the down payment can order 100 units of the store item "other customizations in $1 increments" from www.modelfkeyboards.com/shop
Wait, how does this work for those of us who have already made an order?
You are already in the queue since you have already ordered and paid :)
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 23 February 2017, 00:17:59
1. I'm primarily interested in an F77 and am just curious other people's thoughts on the ultra compact vs. the more traditional model.
2. If I'm putting in $100 for a "down-payment" do I need to specify the color, whether I'd like an F77 or F62, etc. in the comments when I do so?
Gracias
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 23 February 2017, 01:03:51
Two questions from someone who hasn't been keeping up with this:
1. I'm primarily interested in an F77 and am just curious other people's thoughts on the ultra compact vs. the more traditional model.
2. If I'm putting in $100 for a "down-payment" do I need to specify the color, whether I'd like an F77 or F62, etc. in the comments when I do so?
Gracias
I couldn't make up my mind, so I ordered the original with a spare compact case so that I can swap between the two. If I had to choose just one, I'd get the original case for the following reasons:
-It's more like the original real deal, which has a cool factor to it.
-It's heavier (this thing is already going to be heavy, so why not add more weight? :)).
-I believe it's made of zinc instead of aluminum, so it's powder coated instead of anodized. I think the powder coated finish will likely look a bit nicer. This also means more colors are available (not sure if that's still the case though).
-Overall, I think the original case has more character and stands out from keyboards on the market.
That said, I still ordered a compact case also. I'm sure either one will be pretty nice.
Just my 2 cents.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 February 2017, 06:26:56
Post by: axtran on Thu, 23 February 2017, 07:00:21
Ellipse I thought you were getting the caps from Unicomp. What happened there?
I'm glad I'm not seeing Unicomp keycaps. They probably have the worst molds--they even use deformed keys on fulfilling their production orders. It's disheartening to get keycaps with base stems that aren't even molded completely, and I've had them on all of my Unicomp-ordered boards.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 23 February 2017, 11:35:47
Ellipse I thought you were getting the caps from Unicomp. What happened there?
I'm glad I'm not seeing Unicomp keycaps. They probably have the worst molds--they even use deformed keys on fulfilling their production orders. It's disheartening to get keycaps with base stems that aren't even molded completely, and I've had them on all of my Unicomp-ordered boards.
Fair enough. Just thought I'd heard that Ellipse was getting unicomp caps.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 25 February 2017, 15:31:08
Now that we are up to 422 keyboards ordered (over $195,000!) I was able to order the construction of brand new key molds which are currently being re-tooled to meet the key specifications from the CAD files.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 27 February 2017, 22:29:33
We are still waiting on the first run prototype parts to be made and then hopefully approved. I was hoping to get these earlier but the factory has been slow to get things going after the Chinese New Year holiday. Production of all parts can start after these first-run parts are approved.
Post by: Kavik on Tue, 28 February 2017, 10:27:41
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 03 March 2017, 21:24:57
It seems like the factory may have not used the latest CAD files by mistake for the previous prototyping round, on at least some of the parts like the top inner assembly and inner foam. To be safe I re-sent them all the latest STP files and they confirmed they will be working from those.
Post by: Pete on Sat, 04 March 2017, 16:20:33
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 04 March 2017, 17:14:30
Post by: Pete on Sat, 04 March 2017, 17:33:27
...there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)Woah, that's a lot of keyboards! I feel almost guilty to be adding to your workload by placing an order... but I will. Thanks, :)
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 04 March 2017, 17:57:56
Post by: kmba on Sun, 05 March 2017, 01:48:20
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 March 2017, 09:39:32
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 05 March 2017, 09:49:22
Receipt tells me I opted for "Keys: Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) - Layout/Flipper Placement: ISO Ente", but I ordered thinking I'd get Unicomp keys and just wanted some caps to keep springs in place during shipment, and planned to swap in my Model M caps.
Post by: sundin on Sun, 05 March 2017, 10:23:05
Yes they are, though you will probably get it by the end of year - there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)I paid mine the 28/01/16
Ellipse=Gon? :(
Seriously, a refund is possible?
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 05 March 2017, 10:35:33
Yes they are, though you will probably get it by the end of year - there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)I paid mine the 28/01/16
Ellipse=Gon? :(
Nah, he's right there.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 March 2017, 10:53:06
sundin I noted that there have been significant production delays. Many of the parts finished production (barrels, flippers, original cases, capacitive PCBs, ribbon cables, controllers, etc.) but the factory is working on the keys, stryofoam, boxes, ultra compact cases, and inner assembly parts after the samples were not to spec. Please be patient! I will not accept subpar parts from the factory to ship anything early.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 05 March 2017, 12:48:43
Yes they are, though you will probably get it by the end of year - there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)I paid mine the 28/01/16
Ellipse=Gon? :(
Seriously, a refund is possible?
Ellipse has been in constant contact with us and has been providing concrete updates on the status of the buy.
Post by: sundin on Sun, 05 March 2017, 13:38:55
Ellipse has been in constant contact with us and has been providing concrete updates on the status of the buy.I know I know, i'm just kid, but two years, i find that a little bit too long...
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 05 March 2017, 13:40:29
Ellipse has been in constant contact with us and has been providing concrete updates on the status of the buy.I know I know, i'm just kid, but two years, i find that a little bit too long...
Considering he is building a keyboard from scratch and having to test everything himself, I don't think two years is too long.
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 05 March 2017, 14:22:33
sure cjhard, just pay the difference using the store item "$1 increments" and choose free shipping. Your place would not change.
Dumb inquiry: The form mentions which international layout I need (because I like ISO Enter). Is US ISO acceptable, or is there a bulk pricing that I'd be screwing up for not choosing an actual international layout?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 March 2017, 14:45:00
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 05 March 2017, 15:21:17
I am a touch typist, so the actual legends don't mean anything to me. I just like the aesthetic of the legends.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 06 March 2017, 18:46:30
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 March 2017, 19:07:57
They expect to finish all remaining sample re-makes by the end of March. Then hopefully if everything is approved they can finish up production in the coming few months. Then they need to do the assembly and ship to me. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 March 2017, 22:20:45
The spring gauges also arrived at the factory to make sure all springs are all within the inner diameter tolerance specified.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 14 March 2017, 05:03:49
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 15 March 2017, 02:15:53
We are looking at mid- to late 2017. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
Still salivating for this, one and only keyboard design :thumb: .
Even if it rolls round to 2018, still willing to wait for this no matter the consequences.......
Post by: dante on Wed, 15 March 2017, 09:27:42
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
Post by: busgamer7394 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 10:03:03
Post by: busgamer7394 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 10:05:07
Samples of my work
https://goo.gl/photos/1fbVnjAYczqmRJRW7
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 15 March 2017, 11:28:13
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
Could you explain that? I don't understand.
Post by: busgamer7394 on Wed, 15 March 2017, 11:42:12
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
Could you explain that? I don't understand.
People in that group buy didn't get their orders and never received a refund. The same guy is now running a new group buy and just kinda ignores questions not related to the new one.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 15 March 2017, 22:53:40
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 16 March 2017, 02:31:11
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
Could you explain that? I don't understand.
People in that group buy didn't get their orders and never received a refund. The same guy is now running a new group buy and just kinda ignores questions not related to the new one.
Ya what feng is doing is absolutely not right but your linking his thread put at least me under the impression that group buy was associated with Ellipse, which doesn't seem to be the case, so I really think it's completely irrelevant. Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 16 March 2017, 03:36:04
Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
Makes perfect sense. I know other Group Buys will go pear-shaped but that is not our concern here for this Model-F keyboard.
Thus far Ellipse has ALWAYS provided on going reporting, unlike some other people here on Geekhack that say nothing when running a Group Buy. Part of joining any GB some times you get LUCKY and actually receive something, other times you get your wallet gang-raped by certain scum-bags and receive only contempt and lies.
Just be glad thus far, we all haven't been gaped by anyone here in this F62+F77 section 8) .
Post by: dante on Thu, 16 March 2017, 09:21:04
Ya what feng is doing is absolutely not right but your linking his thread put at least me under the impression that group buy was associated with Ellipse, which doesn't seem to be the case, so I really think it's completely irrelevant. Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
I was just pointing out to a moderator that there is a con in progress and it might be a better use of their time to pursue that one instead of the GB containing videos/photos/constant communication/etc.
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 16 March 2017, 14:31:14
I was just pointing out to a moderator that there is a con in progress and it might be a better use of their time to pursue that one instead of the GB containing videos/photos/constant communication/etc.
Nobody's "pursuing" this group buy. I'm a participant and I asked for clarification on the current finish date. Thank you for pointing out the feng situation, but let's drop it in this thread.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 March 2017, 21:52:48
Post by: digi on Fri, 17 March 2017, 12:27:34
Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
Makes perfect sense. I know other Group Buys will go pear-shaped but that is not our concern here for this Model-F keyboard.
Thus far Ellipse has ALWAYS provided on going reporting, unlike some other people here on Geekhack that say nothing when running a Group Buy. Part of joining any GB some times you get LUCKY and actually receive something, other times you get your wallet gang-raped by certain scum-bags and receive only contempt and lies.
Just be glad thus far, we all haven't been gaped by anyone here in this F62+F77 section 8) .
Pretty sure Elrick is my favorite person on GH... dude goes from 0 to 100 real quick..
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 March 2017, 20:17:13
Post by: Pete on Mon, 27 March 2017, 05:49:28
Post by: Jedi on Mon, 27 March 2017, 06:18:13
I'm really excited about this project. Kind of surprised about the quality issues from the factory... is that normal?
It's way too normal that there can be necessary adjustments needed even after specifications are given to the factory. For references to similar projects the M|F and Model 01 group buys are all epic major projects that started from the ground up. Ellipse is doing one helluva job keeping us aware of the status (along with the other before mentioned GB runners). Welcome to GBs where patience and confidence in the GB leaders will make the wait all the more worth it in the end :)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 27 March 2017, 18:45:07
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
Post by: RocketGruntJake on Tue, 28 March 2017, 10:50:43
Yes Pete, with the number of molds and parts requiring high tolerances to match that of the originals, the project has taken longer.
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
So realistically when will you be shipping out the first boards?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 28 March 2017, 11:42:17
Yes Pete, with the number of molds and parts requiring high tolerances to match that of the originals, the project has taken longer.
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
So realistically when will you be shipping out the first boards?
Ellipse obviously would know better, but my estimate is August.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Tue, 28 March 2017, 11:48:30
Yes Pete, with the number of molds and parts requiring high tolerances to match that of the originals, the project has taken longer.
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
So realistically when will you be shipping out the first boards?
Ellipse obviously would know better, but my estimate is August.
This was the last update regarding shipping times from Ellipse
We are looking at mid- to late 2017. Sorry again for the factory delays. As noted before they needed to re-make some of the samples that were not to spec. I would not want to proceed with these out of spec parts in order to meet any original estimated deadlines.
They expect to finish all remaining sample re-makes by the end of March. Then hopefully if everything is approved they can finish up production in the coming few months. Then they need to do the assembly and ship to me. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
Post by: 3K on Tue, 28 March 2017, 12:30:58
Quote from: Ellipse
Then they need to do the assembly and ship to me. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
Will you also leave your signature on each of them?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 28 March 2017, 20:09:33
Also we crossed another major milestone - $205,000 in orders (incl. shipping)!
Post by: digi on Wed, 29 March 2017, 14:34:41
Post by: Phenix on Wed, 29 March 2017, 14:43:18
Any plans for a Model F SSK after this GB is all done? :DFor what? Lot_lizard is doing this already..
Post by: digi on Wed, 29 March 2017, 14:47:11
Any plans for a Model F SSK after this GB is all done? :DFor what? Lot_lizard is doing this already..
Please link
Post by: Phenix on Wed, 29 March 2017, 14:48:17
Google M/F SSK on deskthority.Any plans for a Model F SSK after this GB is all done? :DFor what? Lot_lizard is doing this already..
Please link
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdeskthority%2Enet%2Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3Ft%3D15091&share_tid=15091&share_fid=17382&share_type=t
Model MF - GB CLOSED
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 March 2017, 15:40:40
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 29 March 2017, 21:29:41
Sorry no. I suggest the F77 which is very close to the SSK except the function keys are embedded as a second layer on the F77 as opposed to being separate keys.
The F77 is perfection personified, anyone else wanting something different needs their head read and then firmly detached from their body >:D .
The F77 is the ONLY keyboard you will ever need in Life, just as Moses had chiseled out the the full commandments on stone and through his anger, broke the most important section that clearly mentioned - the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Religious scholars always seem to ignore that vital piece of info from God :thumb: .
Post by: digi on Wed, 29 March 2017, 21:34:02
Sorry no. I suggest the F77 which is very close to the SSK except the function keys are embedded as a second layer on the F77 as opposed to being separate keys.
The F77 is perfection personified, anyone else wanting something different needs their head read and then firmly detached from their body >:D .
The F77 is the ONLY keyboard you will ever need in Life, just as Moses had chiseled out the the full commandments on stone and through his anger, broke the most important section that clearly mentioned - the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Religious scholars always seem to ignore that vital piece of info from God :thumb: .
YES!!!!!!!
Post by: Jedi on Wed, 29 March 2017, 23:29:19
The F77 is the ONLY keyboard you will ever need in Life, just as Moses had chiseled out the the full commandments on stone and through his anger, broke the most important section that clearly mentioned - the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Religious scholars always seem to ignore that vital piece of info from God :thumb: .
F@#K Elrick I <3 you. Where do you come up with this sh!t?! Stop being a stranger and come hang out with us GHers more often, we need your wisdom more. :-*
Post by: Pete on Thu, 30 March 2017, 01:48:33
- the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Silicon Heaven of course.
(http://i.imgur.com/38Jj5r5.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 31 March 2017, 16:55:54
Post by: johnthedong on Fri, 31 March 2017, 19:53:57
Post by: digi on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:18:57
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:24:16
Post by: digi on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:25:46
Nope I would not put something out without thoroughly testing it first, especially given the costs involved.
Gotcha, so if you find a problem are you fixing each board yourself?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:28:58
Post by: digi on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:30:27
Yes, though I am paying the factory for assembly and testing/quality control so I am just going to be the second thorough pass.
10-4
How many boards are you at now? Over 1k?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:52:39
F77 216
F62 166
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 61
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 49
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 43
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122) 40
Compact F77 40
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 38
FirstAidKit 36
Compact F62 29
Extra F77 Case 21
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver" 21
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 21
xwhatsit Beam Spring or Model F USB controller 17
The factory is waiting on a subcontractor/supplier for finishing some of the first run parts (hard anodizing, etc.) and another national holiday is this week so that has caused some delays (Tomb Sweeping Day).
Post by: digi on Tue, 04 April 2017, 20:58:24
DO me a favor and ship mine first and Elricks last mkay? :D
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 05 April 2017, 04:42:33
DO me a favor and ship mine first and Elricks last mkay? :D
No probs, I've still got packaging from stuff left in the collections room from last year. Unopened and the Mrs want's it all gone in the next couple of months, due to it taking up a lot of space.
Since I'm mostly an old lazy bastard, when it comes to opening boxes you can ship my order last - every time. Not worried because I've got to clear out that room first before she turfs out everything in the dumpster.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 April 2017, 15:04:26
Currently all original and compact case orders are expected to ship with the early bird round.
Also another reminder that I am offering free shipping if you'd like to add a First Aid kit to your order - just choose free/other shipping. The First Aid kits come with spare parts that will be great for repairs long after production ends this year.
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sun, 09 April 2017, 15:56:33
We are running low on Compact F62 and Compact F77 keyboards and spare cases - please get in your order soon if you'd like it to make the early bird cut!
Running low overall or just the early bird stuff? I don't want to miss it, but I'd also prefer to order as late as possible (because of some financial reasons), so don't really need to be in the early bird round.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 April 2017, 16:06:44
Post by: 3K on Sun, 09 April 2017, 17:10:33
Also another reminder that I am offering free shipping if you'd like to add a First Aid kit to your order - just choose free/other shipping. The First Aid kits come with spare parts that will be great for repairs long after production ends this year.Does in this case the free shipping apply to the First Aid Kit only, or the whole order? Because this would save me quite some money :)
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 09 April 2017, 17:12:22
We are running low on Compact F62 and Compact F77 keyboards and spare cases - please get in your order soon if you'd like it to make the early bird cut!
Running low overall or just the early bird stuff? I don't want to miss it, but I'd also prefer to order as late as possible (because of some financial reasons), so don't really need to be in the early bird round.
Don't rush. Don't put yourself at any financial risk. Don't be fooled into thinking this GB will be done any time soon, deadline or no deadline.
I rushed to get into the early bird group for this GB... my family helped pay for the board as a very earl birthday gift to make sure I could get in, and then one of the original shipping estimates was around my actual birthday. Fast forward 12+ months and that round is still open and no detailed shipping deadline. I'll be having my next birthday soon and highly doubt to see the board for that one either. Great.
Sorry if that feels like I'm being totally butthurt but I pushes my buttons to read "please get in your order soon".
Ellipse, here's my request to you: Please update your OP and correct all of the misleading details in there soon. I don't want to see you trying to drum up more orders on 438 day old GB when you haven't even updated the OP since November 2016. Do you realize how long ago that is? 138 days since you updated the extremely vague "SHIPPED TO ME" deadlines of "January or February". By scrolling back in this thread, 5 weeks ago you updated "We are looking at mid- to late 2017"... why not update your OP post with that?! Aye, I'm sure it's hard work making this keyboard a reality and I'm sure I'll enjoy it the day it finally arrives but your organization skills are a joke.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 April 2017, 17:44:14
Nathan allowing additional orders is not delaying the start of production. As noted before the early round has already gone into production with many parts finished (some we are still waiting on) - orders can still come through as I have ordered extras on my own. I have been updating the web site blog at least monthly with status updates. That is always an up to date place to check. Due to factory delays things are taking longer than expected but I will not accept substandard parts to meet the estimated timeline. I have updated the OP.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 09 April 2017, 18:36:27
3K, free shipping just for the additional accessories order :) as I will combine shipping together.
Nathan allowing additional orders is not delaying the start of production. As noted before the early round has already gone into production with many parts finished (some we are still waiting on) - orders can still come through as I have ordered extras on my own. I have been updating the web site blog at least monthly with status updates. That is always an up to date place to check. Due to factory delays things are taking longer than expected but I will not accept substandard parts to meet the estimated timeline. I have updated the OP.
Right, I understand that new theoretically won't slow down existing orders, but what schedule are you telling these new orders? The whole timeline for the GB is very unclear.
All I want to stay up to date on is the ship date. That's it. The last update about that I can see on your blog is from December 30, 2016 "The current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me in March or April 2017.", which we know from this thread that it's out of date information. So really there is no where with easy to find up to date information.
Thanks for updating the OP but it is still extremely vague.
SHIPPED TO ME
* Current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me around mid-year.
What does that exactly mean? If you get hundereds of keyboards shipped to you it could still take weeks or months for you to ship them all out. I want to know the current estimate of when it will be shipped to the early bird buyers. Sure that can change, that's fine, but what is the current estimate for sending them out?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 April 2017, 20:15:51
Orders will ship out in the order they are received (generally) and it could take me a month or two to get through testing everything once it's received. The factory is doing the initial quality control and I will only be doing the final pass.
I am going to ask that everyone please be patient as the factory finishes production this year. A lot of people are waiting!
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 09 April 2017, 21:07:12
Nathan the timeline is not completely outlined, you are correct. I do not have factory-promised deadlines or anything more specific to offer. The expectation is that people start receiving their orders starting mid-2017.
Orders will ship out in the order they are received (generally) and it could take me a month or two to get through testing everything once it's received. The factory is doing the initial quality control and I will only be doing the final pass.
I am going to ask that everyone please be patient as the factory finishes production this year. A lot of people are waiting!
I'm happy to be patient as long as you're transparent with the state of the GB.
If factually can't provide anything more specific that 'mid year + a month or two' then I have a lot less faith in the the organisation of this GB. Surely you have a rough ETAs for at least one of the 4 separate in-production part that you are buying? (Ultra compact cases, Key molds / keys / buckling springs, Inner assembly plates, Boxes / inner foam / outside foam packaging). Are you giving a factory money and they are replying with "ok, i'll send it mid-year!"?... I hope not. If you are purposefully withholding information about the time frame of the GB to avoid the potential backlash when you have another delay, then you could at least say that.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 10 April 2017, 12:32:29
The OP should get edited every time you post an update in the thread. Even a rough timeline would be great, something like
End of May: expected to receive part X
June: estimate for part Y
August: factory assembly & QA
October: finished boards ship to me
October-November: I test and ship out boards in order
Along with maybe a list of the order you will ship the boards in.
Just some thoughts. I remain super excited for this buy even though it will be 1.5-2 years later than initially expected. I'm not criticizing you for things you have no control over, I just wish it was easier to understand the big picture of where we are.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 10 April 2017, 14:03:55
I'd also like a clearer picture of what, in your (Ellipse) opinion, qualifies a part as a failure. What are your standards? What parts have you received, failed, and why have you failed them? What parts have your received and passed?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 11 April 2017, 00:04:25
The turnaround time for the factory is longer than expected for correcting issues before the run starts but it is understandable given my quality standards and the unique aspects of bringing back 1980s production parts. They have been very patient working with me for going on 3 years now.
The factory timeframe I believe was based on expectations of standard parts requests and finishes - they didn't know how challenging this project would be for the nonstandard requests, nor did I.
The factory is actually building or adjusting their tooling for the special characteristics of this project. For example they are building a machine that curves the PCB to match that of the originals as there was no equipment that could delicately deal with PCB curving without damaging the copper traces. There is also tooling that precisely makes the inner assembly parts to the IBM Model F curve.
The parts requiring the most amount of work, the die cast original style cases, took 3 months for die casting, final machining, and powdercoating. Before then was maybe 3-4 months for making the molds and adjusting the powdercoating and texture.
The die cast case powdercoating process took months because the factory had to experiment with different paints and textures to match the original bumpy Model F 4704 texture - using standard powdercoating for the prototypes did not take long. The kind of texture and paint color did not exist (no Pantone color!) so everything had to be custom mixed until the colors were a perfect match to the 4704 case sample from 1988 that I provided. Then the powdercoating for some of the paint they tried did not stick well to the zinc so they had to switch to another type of paint. They ended up having to mix the custom made texture into the custom color powdercoat paint to get everything perfect.
The flippers and barrels were made from different proprietary materials (options had to be researched by the engineers) that were close approximations of the original plastic formulations that were never precisely disclosed back in the day (they work and the flippers perfectly convey the capacitive signal).
Pancake I will recap examples of first try prototype adjustments needed - the passed parts are listed in the OP "finished production" section:
- Original cases - powdercoating color and texture needed a few tries to get right and accurately match the originals (which they do now). Their earlier samples were very well made (and without much delay) to high modern standards but did not match the texture and color of the originals.
- Barrels - some measurement errors on my part of fractions of 1 mm caused the barrels not to interface with the keys like the originals; had to have them adjust the molds
- Keys - one critical dimension of the keys was not to my spec, probably 0.5mm off spec which made the keys not buckle consistently.
- Springs - they tried a number of materials; also the spring measurements were not accurate enough, under 1 mm difference but it is noticeable and could prevent a key from buckling
- Inner assembly plates - they were not to spec, maybe under 1 mm too large (the width of space between the top and bottom inner assembly plates. The first ones had holes that were too small to fit the barrels and some of the powdercoating was flaking.
In all cases I have held the factory to my standards and have rejected substandard parts.
Once they determine exactly what is needed, production is approved to start and there should not be much of a delay due to rejection of parts.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 11 April 2017, 07:12:21
Post by: digi on Tue, 11 April 2017, 15:46:24
I think the only part that is debatable is the amount of time consumed by you (Ellipse) individually testing each board instead of shipping them out after such a long delay. It would speed things up to just deal with the issues on a case-by-case basis instead of touching each board....are you doing all the assembly yourself Ellipse? Or is the factory?
Post by: hpfalcon on Tue, 11 April 2017, 15:55:31
....are you doing all the assembly yourself Ellipse? Or is the factory?
Yes, though I am paying the factory for assembly and testing/quality control so I am just going to be the second thorough pass.
seems the factory would be doing the assembly
Post by: Justins7 on Tue, 11 April 2017, 16:06:49
It would be great to see even more videos and/or photos of the process... Did the the factory engineers think you were crazy, Ellipse?
As much as I want this done quickly, it makes sense that it takes a long time, considering the obstacles, as well as time/care in each keyboard. (I'm actually glad I didn't find out about this until recently, or else I'd be impatiently waiting for 2 years.)
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 11 April 2017, 16:35:47
Post by: digi on Tue, 11 April 2017, 16:46:38
....are you doing all the assembly yourself Ellipse? Or is the factory?Yes, though I am paying the factory for assembly and testing/quality control so I am just going to be the second thorough pass.
seems the factory would be doing the assembly
LOLLLLL Did you just quote myself asking Elilipse the same question twice???
Ok, i'm leaving now.
Post by: digi on Tue, 11 April 2017, 16:57:24
Yo again, not criticizing for how long it's taking. That is totally understandable. I'm criticizing for the lack of clear status information.
I hear ya brosef
Post by: Pete on Tue, 11 April 2017, 17:08:54
The whole process seems pretty interesting. There are so many obsolete/discontinued objects I would love to reverse engineer and bring back into production.
It would be great to see even more videos and/or photos of the process... Did the the factory engineers think you were crazy, Ellipse?
As much as I want this done quickly, it makes sense that it takes a long time, considering the obstacles, as well as time/care in each keyboard. (I'm actually glad I didn't find out about this until recently, or else I'd be impatiently waiting for 2 years.)
It is an amazing and ambitious project! I too am glad I only found out about this relatively recently :)
The more I read about the process of getting this keyboard manufactured, the more interesting I am finding it. I'm glad someone has the determination and fortitude to get this done.
Post by: Pete on Tue, 11 April 2017, 17:13:03
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 11 April 2017, 17:37:50
This is without a doubt, THE most challenging group buy EVER on Geekhack. It's the first time a keyboard has been reverse-engineered that isn't the typical MX custom board. This isn't a keycap set or another aluminum slab & pcb board :)
well said digi. The factory is doing the assembly and quality control; I am just doing the last pass of testing and putting orders together before I ship each keyboard.
Justins7 what were you thinking of bringing back? I don't know what the factory engineers think of me :)
hashbaz I am positing that the lack of status and timeline information is due to the unexpected complications of re-making parts from the 1980s. They have been fixing the prototypes for the past couple months and say they expect to be finished next week. They will update me when they have corrected any remaining issues with the keys/key molds (seems like that's the last major thing we are waiting on before they mail the key samples). They have been unable to meet a timeframe for retooling and re-making parts as I mentioned.
Thanks Pete; I hope you join in!
Here are some photos from the factory's recent efforts on the keys. They even rejected the test PBT color formulation as not matching closely enough to the original samples, even before I said anything!
As a note the space bar and other keys will not all be pebble as they will be the standard two color keys for those who ordered it that way - that is just the test output of the key molds.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 11 April 2017, 18:14:40
hashbaz I am positing that the lack of status and timeline information is due to the unexpected complications of re-making parts from the 1980s. They have been fixing the prototypes for the past couple months and say they expect to be finished next week. They will update me when they have corrected any remaining issues with the keys/key molds (seems like that's the last major thing we are waiting on before they mail the key samples). They have been unable to meet a timeframe for retooling and re-making parts as I mentioned.
Again, I am _not_ complaining about the delays. I am complaining that there is no current big-picture summary in the OP that we can look at to understand what the current status of the buy is. That is lack of communication on your part, and is what I've been trying to get you to do better at for a long time.
Your patience and dedication and technical prowess are fantastic -- I just wish you would keep the OP up to date. <3
Post by: a_ak57 on Tue, 11 April 2017, 20:31:11
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 April 2017, 23:03:30
Post by: duface on Wed, 12 April 2017, 23:07:15
The factory needs another week getting the key sample colors right. They expect to be done by end of next week. Then they can DHL all the final first run parts to me and we can hopefully start production soon after my testing.Great news! Are you getting a full set of first run parts? I'd love to see a keyboard put together with the all first run keys, case, etc.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 April 2017, 23:16:35
They will be sending the final finished/approved parts from the OP as well including the powdercoated die cast zinc cases made from brand new molds. The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 13 April 2017, 00:16:24
The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!
I love that particular word here on Geekhack;
"HEAVIER"
Gawd praise that magic word and all those who follow the IBM Model-F phenomenon 8) .
Although expecting extreme bollocking by the Post Office so have indeed prepared the wallet orifice for some serious damage here. Not worried really because it's a once in a lifetime receival of something that will never occur again.
Much like a heavy night out in Pattaya, won't be able to sit down for a month when that happens ;) .
Post by: digi on Thu, 13 April 2017, 11:41:58
The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!
I love that particular word here on Geekhack;
"HEAVIER"
Gawd praise that magic word and all those who follow the IBM Model-F phenomenon 8) .
Although expecting extreme bollocking by the Post Office so have indeed prepared the wallet orifice for some serious damage here. Not worried really because it's a once in a lifetime receival of something that will never occur again.
Much like a heavy night out in Pattaya, won't be able to sit down for a month when that happens ;) .
LOLL YES!!!!!
Post by: a_ak57 on Thu, 13 April 2017, 13:33:08
Post by: digi on Thu, 13 April 2017, 13:50:44
Don't be left in the dust like Hoff or Halv..
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 13 April 2017, 18:17:59
Well, against my better judgment I'm in for an industrial grey kishsaver. Figure even if it doesn't dethrone topre I can always make back most of the cost via selling.
Hey there, I'm a Thorpie fanatic and have bought just about every version of Realforce Keyboards here (they are the ONLY justified manufacturer) and I think this Model-F by Ellipse, shall be something truly inspiring.
You can always buy another Thorpie keyboard at any time in the future even that abysmal joke, the HHKB - BUT the Model-F keyboard is a piece of heavenly 'Angel Dust' that shall always be treasured and worshiped by all those who collect and use keyboards across the Globe.
Don't be one of those SAD bastards who thought that it will come around again, because it won't. You may like to hang around on Flebay and wait for some deranged individual to sell their Ellipse keyboard but it will go for over $1000+.
Post by: esquilax on Fri, 14 April 2017, 12:44:35
So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...
Post by: tron on Fri, 14 April 2017, 12:59:08
Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?
So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...
I agree. I think another group buy in ~ 2 years would be able to generate enough interest to justify another large scale production run. With so much time and money going into the molds and tooling, it's hard to believe they would be discarded after this group buy ends.
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 14 April 2017, 14:57:42
Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?
So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...
I agree. I think another group buy in ~ 2 years would be able to generate enough interest to justify another large scale production run. With so much time and money going into the molds and tooling, it's hard to believe they would be discarded after this group buy ends.
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 14 April 2017, 20:40:50
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time. Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then. BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.
Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out. That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out, if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied. When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.
Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects. In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute. They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.
That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling. So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.
But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.
Post by: digi on Fri, 14 April 2017, 20:55:44
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time. Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then. BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.
Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out. That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out, if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied. When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.
Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects. In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute. They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.
That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling. So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.
But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.
10/10
Post by: 3K on Sat, 15 April 2017, 03:00:27
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time. Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then. BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.
Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out. That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out, if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied. When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.
Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects. In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute. They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.
That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling. So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.
But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.
That's new to me, really interesting.
Makes me imaging quite some scenarios...
Quote
QuoteHey, when will the next production round start?Hello, yes sorry, but never. We needed molds to build pink toy phallus.
Post by: gaunt on Sat, 15 April 2017, 08:37:32
EDIT: Thought of something else as well. I ordered the F77 with printed caps and the arrow/insert etc cluster on the right. Will an Esc key be included? I'd like to exchange Scroll Lock (never found a use for this key) with Esc.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 15 April 2017, 10:10:32
Post by: gaunt on Sat, 15 April 2017, 10:36:22
Yes I am still taking early bird orders gaunt, and yes you'll get the full key cap set (103 key).
That's great news :)
Post by: supamesican on Sat, 15 April 2017, 12:57:42
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 15 April 2017, 13:23:15
Post by: gaunt on Sun, 16 April 2017, 06:23:23
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 April 2017, 12:34:38
The black, off-white/beige, and Industrial Gray colors are all at no extra charge.
The extra charge colors ($75 extra) are True Red, Silver Gray, and someone just ordered a new color, International Orange (Aerospace Version) which should look great - it is the color used for some NASA space suits.
To get a color of your own costs about $400 to $500.
No custom color offerings are currently available for the compact cases - just black and standard gray hard anodized.
Post by: gaunt on Sun, 16 April 2017, 15:43:56
Yes gaunt regarding the original style die cast cases:
The black, off-white/beige, and Industrial Gray colors are all at no extra charge.
The extra charge colors ($75 extra) are True Red, Silver Gray, and someone just ordered a new color, International Orange (Aerospace Version) which should look great - it is the color used for some NASA space suits.
To get a color of your own costs about $400 to $500.
No custom color offerings are currently available for the compact cases - just black and standard gray hard anodized.
I think I'm having a 'D'oh!' moment. What I called dark beige (seen here https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/) is really 'industrial gray' while 'off-white/beige' is the normal white/cream colour, isn't it? If that's the case then everything is peachy, as that's what I already ordered :)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 April 2017, 18:06:51
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 20 April 2017, 16:56:04
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 22 April 2017, 14:11:12
We have a new premium color offering! Anyone else interested in International Orange (Aerospace) for your original style powdercoated case? Someone plans on ordering it for the final round (it would delay any early bird orders unless you'd want it as a spare case with separate shipping).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange
What is the cost to upgrade to this color?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 April 2017, 14:17:33
Post by: supamesican on Sat, 22 April 2017, 16:32:52
Yep horizontal ones are the only ones used on an F62/F77 unless you use the international/ISO enter.
Awesome, got them ordered. :)
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 23 April 2017, 08:00:23
Post by: dante on Sun, 23 April 2017, 10:48:55
My biggest issue with buying in isn't the delays but the fact that nobody (as far as I know) has seen any of the prototypes. I know you are quite proud to have been featured in at least a couple articles as well as passing on information such as "We are now up to $xxx,xxx in sales!" but someone credible really needs to see the prototypes at this point in time.
In fact for someone with the financial resources that you must possess - given that no fundraiser was used - I'm very surprised you haven't attended one of the keyboard shows to show off the prototypes.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 April 2017, 12:54:42
In the mean time I posted videos with teardowns and typing tests so you can see and hear the keyboards in operation (these were posted last year and earlier this year). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw
If anyone knows of any upcoming Manhattan tech meetups where it would be appropriate, please let me know. Maybe I can get out to the San Fran area in the coming months as well?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 23 April 2017, 13:00:38
dante I was trying to put together a meetup in Manhattan but there was little to no interest. That offer is still open. I should be getting the finalized first-run parts in a couple weeks if anyone's interested.
In the mean time I posted videos with teardowns and typing tests so you can see and hear the keyboards in operation (these were posted last year and earlier this year). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw
If anyone knows of any upcoming Manhattan tech meetups where it would be appropriate, please let me know. Maybe I can get out to the San Fran area in the coming months as well?
There is a keycon meetup in June in Philly. It would be great to see the boards there as there will be a lot of people attending. Details can be found here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87017.0
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 April 2017, 22:03:12
The factory is still finalizing the keys and putting on the powdercoating for the top inner assembly plates. They are fine-tuning the key molds to make sure the keys are made to spec.
Here are some photos of the machines that bend the PCBs (IBM used to bend the Model F PCBs). The secret is to heat the PCBs gently and evenly first (see the first two photos of the heater) and then force a bend of the board to the radius I specified to the factory. These machines and tooling were not cheap!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 23 April 2017, 22:07:58
Post by: smt on Sun, 23 April 2017, 23:46:13
It would be great to experience the prototypes in person, two months from now.
Post by: user 18 on Mon, 24 April 2017, 13:19:07
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 28 April 2017, 19:22:34
Low stock notice on Compact Case early bird round keyboards: we are down to the last 4 compact F77 and the last 11 compact F62 keyboards. Knowing rate they have been ordered, I recommend ordering one in the coming weeks if you want to be a part of the early bird round.
Also an interesting note and request: The first few months' of orders had a greater proportion of black powdercoated case orders and F62 original case orders compared to all orders since then (more other colors and F77 orders proportionately). This means for the early bird round I am unexpectedly likely to run out of Industrial Gray/Off-White Beige original case F77s before I run out of the others. If anyone wants to change their case from another color to black or from F77 to F62 please let me know :) This way we can keep the early round open a little longer "while supplies last."
HHKB style vs. regular style right shift: the breakdown so far is 60% in favor of HHKB style split right shift on the F62s and 40% in favor of HHKB style split right shift on the F77s.
Post by: NathanA on Sat, 29 April 2017, 08:44:54
Also, do you have any pictures of the anodized compact cases yet? Really curious to see the black.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 April 2017, 12:17:57
See photos 1, 4, 5, and 6 for the black and regular gray hard anodized cases - just the bottom pieces from the photos are hard anodized - the keyboards from the photos were not yet anodized.
Post by: Pete on Sat, 29 April 2017, 18:27:56
... If you are looking for a True Red, Pantone 19-1664 or Silver Gray Pantone 14-5002 TPX Silver case ...
Maybe its the comma between True Red and Pantone 19-1664, but is that the same colour?
Post by: Pete on Sat, 29 April 2017, 18:31:10
Here are some photos of the machines that bend the PCBs (IBM used to bend the Model F PCBs). The secret is to heat the PCBs gently and evenly first (see the first two photos of the heater) and then force a bend of the board to the radius I specified to the factory.
...
Wow, I never realized the PCBs had to be bent. I hope they get the bend to within the necessary tolerances without any issues.
(BTW: I have a KB on order.)
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 April 2017, 19:58:47
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 30 April 2017, 20:47:22
Pete - comma removed and yes I will not be accepting out of tolerance parts.
There you go people, our Ellipse is a PERFECTIONIST.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 May 2017, 15:35:26
When these first-run parts arrive I will examine each part and if it is all good, production will start on the remaining parts! (Top/bottom inner assemblies, springs, hard anodized compact cases, keys, boxes, and inner/outside foam).
The factory expects production and assembly to take 2-3 months, and then these will all ship from China to me for final testing and shipping (generally) in sequence of when you placed your order.
Here are the first run compact cases - please note that these colors are not accurate and are not representative of what anyone will get:
[attachimg=1]
Here is the new batch of finished springs:
[attachimg=2]
Post by: 3K on Sat, 06 May 2017, 16:48:05
But am I wrong or were the cases supposed to be with a shiny finish? Like ... not dull, like the original case. Or will this finish be added in the later run?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 May 2017, 17:21:33
Post by: ibakey on Thu, 11 May 2017, 00:05:01
Post by: Guupti on Thu, 11 May 2017, 03:51:06
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 11 May 2017, 07:54:00
Thinking of joining the final production round. Thoughts on compact vs original case? Love the idea of an all metal case and like the modern look but I think I read the original was a bit heavier and obviously more unique. Any personal options after using both Ellipse?
My thought: if you have to get just one, get the original case. The design is more unique, it's heavier, it's powder coated (more textured), and it's made of friggin' zinc! The compact case look nice, but it's very similar to a lot of other projects, and it's anodized aluminum. For the record, I ordered both, so I'm eager to see which one I like more after experiencing them. Ellipse may have some more insight on how the cases affect the key feel and sound of the board.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 11 May 2017, 21:35:44
My thought: if you have to get just one, get the original case. The design is more unique, it's heavier, it's powder coated (more textured), and it's made of friggin' zinc!
Kavik's right.
This is the PRIME directive, concerning all Model-F fanboys. Once you use this keyboard you suddenly become a crazed Zealot joining thousands of others worldwide, in worshiping this type of technology.
The Model-F is truly unique, 100% designed by engineers who once cared about QUALITY, ENDURANCE and above all else the strength of the 'IBM' name. These are criteria that hold a special resonance upon all of us here in this Group Buy, because we believe in this truly unique keyboard.
This whole process is exactly like the Legend of King Arthur, the sword upon which he gripped with his own hands to pull out of the stone. Here is the mighty Excalibur, the sword that proclaimed great strength and leadership upon all mortals, on Earth. Ellipse is the almighty "Merlin" who is the one that guides and advises 'Arthur' all F77 buyers, throughout his reign as Monarch.
This Model-F keyboard is exactly like "Excalibur" a mighty symbol of supreme power and immense strength. Anyone who receives the F77 shall indeed become as powerful as Arthur because you shall inherit all that responsibility and potential, bestowed upon you by our very own Ellipse 8) .
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 May 2017, 21:40:54
All the first run parts (except keys) are being sent tomorrow by DHL Express! They should arrive by mid-week and then I can start the final QC testing for all parts. I have extra batteries for my micrometer! Keys are expected to be mailed by the end of next week. They are working on the final adjustments of the key molds.
Here are the photos of the cases and outside foam being mailed. The other inner parts are also being mailed so in effect I will be doing the assembly and testing from all newly received parts.
Again please disregard any and all colors and lighting in these photos as they are not accurate or representative of what you will get.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:02:34
Yes I agree with Kavik and Elrick - go for the original case if you can! Though both look great in person.
All the first run parts (except keys) are being sent tomorrow by DHL Express! They should arrive by mid-week and then I can start the final QC testing for all parts. I have extra batteries for my micrometer! Keys are expected to be mailed by the end of next week. They are working on the final adjustments of the key molds.
Here are the photos of the cases and outside foam being mailed. The other inner parts are also being mailed so in effect I will be doing the assembly and testing from all newly received parts.
Again please disregard any and all colors and lighting in these photos as they are not accurate or representative of what you will get.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Wow, those look incredible! I'm glad the final run parts are finally making their way to you for QC. That is exciting!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 May 2017, 18:41:12
I was thinking of attending the Philadelphia keycon at Villanova on 6/24 and bringing these final first run keyboards. Anyone planning on attending?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?board=195.0
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 12 May 2017, 19:13:55
Yep Kavik these shipped today and are making their way over here as we speak.
I was thinking of attending the Philadelphia keycon at Villanova on 6/24 and bringing these final first run keyboards. Anyone planning on attending?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?board=195.0
I will be.
Post by: smt on Sun, 14 May 2017, 09:39:54
I was thinking of attending the Philadelphia keycon at Villanova on 6/24 and bringing these final first run keyboards. Anyone planning on attending?
I plan to be there. It would be an honor to meet you and see these boards in person.
Post by: Pete on Sun, 14 May 2017, 16:04:29
Here are the photos of the cases ...
Again please disregard any and all colors and lighting in these photos as they are not accurate or representative of what you will get...
Disregarding your disclaimer on the colors, the red really does look amazing. I'm tempted to order another keyboard so I can have a red case as well.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: kawasaki161 on Wed, 17 May 2017, 06:59:23
Now, F62 or F77? Compact or classic? Decisions, decisions, decisions....
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 May 2017, 18:42:14
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 18 May 2017, 21:08:09
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 18 May 2017, 21:40:15
My personal preference is for the original off-white/beige color, F77 version with num pad style right side block.
Same here, except for the colour in which I chose the traditional Industrial Grey :thumb: .
The Model-F77 is the standard to which all past and future Model-Fs shall try to live up to. Just glad you have decided to make it a reality for the majority of us that love the Model-F feel, something truly spiritual when used in front of any PC.
Just glad that when the world is falling apart and the yanks go insane about the Russians, we have Ellipse delivering to us a cherished reminder of what an over-engineered keyboard should be.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 May 2017, 21:45:14
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 18 May 2017, 21:47:34
updated reececonrad - sorry for the delay!
Just got the email. Thanks, sir. I was on the fence still with the color choice, but when you mentioned you preferred off white it sealed the deal! :thumb:
Post by: NathanA on Sun, 21 May 2017, 21:25:41
-- Nathan
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 21 May 2017, 22:00:30
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 May 2017, 22:44:02
Everything is working very well so far. The powdercoated die cast zinc cases are excellent quality. It was well worth the couple extra months to get the paint job right. The off-white/beige color is almost an exact match to the 1988 F107 case I mailed them as the reference. The texture is the same bumpy, mostly matte but slightly reflective powdercoating as the original. The True Red and Black cases look good. In the next week or two they will mail the Industrial cases.
The capacitive PCBs, controller PCBs, inner foam, and outside foam are all good. Every PCB is being grounded in two spots to the bottom inner assembly with 6-32 screws to eliminate the risk of stray capacitive signals.
There were a number of issues that I have told the factory to work on and prioritize for completion as soon as possible. Some notes:
The top inner assembly parts are very good but slightly off spec. The TIA curve is about 1mm off from the ideal. My XT sample has a perfect curve that matches my CAD files exactly so I have asked the factory to remake the samples to this standard. The perfect curve helps ensure a more even pressure on the barrels between the top and bottom inner assembly. The wrong curve can result in wiggly barrels and clicks that are not as sharp so it is important that they get it right. To correct this issue they are going to adjust their tooling and mail corrected parts ASAP.
The compact cases had some issues with the color of the hard anodizing being slightly off. They are adding another couple screws on the bottom to further secure the case.
The product boxes were 2.5mm thickness instead of the 5.0mm I had specified so those were rejected, though the box artwork is well-printed.
Finally the springs are very close to the originals but I want to see a few more spring samples with different materials before the springs go into production.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: SixtyLife on Mon, 22 May 2017, 22:47:44
I am typing on a fully assembled new prototype F62!wow.. phenomenal job so far ellipse!
Everything is working very well so far. The powdercoated die cast zinc cases are excellent quality. It was well worth the couple extra months to get the paint job right. The off-white/beige color is almost an exact match to the 1988 F107 case I mailed them as the reference. The texture is the same bumpy, mostly matte but slightly reflective powdercoating as the original. The True Red and Black cases look good. In the next week or two they will mail the Industrial cases.
The capacitive PCBs, controller PCBs, inner foam, and outside foam are all good. Every PCB is being grounded in two spots to the case with 6-32 screws to eliminate the risk of stray capacitive signals.
There were a number of issues that I have told the factory to work on and prioritize for completion as soon as possible. Some notes:
The top inner assembly parts are very good but slightly off spec. The TIA curve is about 1mm off from the ideal. My XT sample has a perfect curve that matches my CAD files exactly so I have asked the factory to remake the samples to this standard. The perfect curve helps ensure a more even pressure on the barrels between the top and bottom inner assembly. The wrong curve can result in wiggly barrels and clicks that are not as sharp so it is important that they get it right. To correct this issue they are going to adjust their tooling and mail corrected parts ASAP.
The compact cases had some issues with the color of the hard anodizing being slightly off. They are adding another couple screws on the bottom to further secure the case.
The product boxes were 2.5mm thickness instead of the 5.0mm I had specified so those were rejected, though the box artwork is well-printed.
Finally the springs are very close to the originals but I want to see a few more spring samples with different materials before the springs go into production.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 22 May 2017, 22:58:34
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 May 2017, 23:13:07
The springs have improved sound but the top inner assembly needs to be re-made and accurately curved before the Model F sound is at its sharpest. Currently it's well within the range of the original Model F's that have gone through my refurbishings over the years.
We are getting there - thanks to everyone for their patience with the factory delays.
The feel is very comfortable to type on. Another buckling spring fan in my family hit 112 WPM on 10fastfingers with this first-run F62! You can really notice the difference with new springs that have not been worn out and oxidized after 30 years.
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 23 May 2017, 02:09:47
Yep it's progressing - definitely slower than their original expected timeline. The months extra for the key molds was frustrating earlier this year but they are expecting to finish up the mold corrections in the next week or so.
The springs have improved sound but the top inner assembly needs to be re-made and accurately curved before the Model F sound is at its sharpest. Currently it's well within the range of the original Model F's that have gone through my refurbishings over the years.
We are getting there - thanks to everyone for their patience with the factory delays.
The feel is very comfortable to type on. Another buckling spring fan in my family hit 112 WPM on 10fastfingers with this first-run F62! You can really notice the difference with new springs that have not been worn out and oxidized after 30 years.
So exciting, thanks for the detailed updates. The cases look so good I am tempted to get an extra one in another colour!
Post by: NathanA on Tue, 23 May 2017, 03:32:21
The XT space bar had a weird Rube Goldberg contraption underneath. The 4704 and F-122 space bars were much more straightforward: a single switch with a wire stabilizer. So it won't sound like an XT, but more like the rest of the keys.
I know that I'm still going to love this keyboard, but that still has to be the saddest news I've heard so far...
Somebody please tell me there is a straightforward way to mod a 4704 spacebar so that it sounds and responds like an F XT. :)
-- Nathan
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 23 May 2017, 21:15:06
We are getting there - thanks to everyone for their patience with the factory delays.
If it all means that everyone of us who handed over our money months ago, get a PERFECT Model-F series in our hands, then it's all worth it :thumb: .
We all know making a Model-F from scratch isn't easy hence why NO one over the years have done it, you are the very first person to accomplish this major achievement. That alone places you into the stratosphere of people who have created something unique during 2016 and 2017.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 27 May 2017, 20:25:48
Update on the top inner assembly cases - the factory has agreed to change over to a different tooling setup to make top inner assembly parts that are accurate in their bend and size. They need a few weeks for setup and to send the corrected samples.
This is an important step to make sure the Brand New Model F keyboards sound as good as the best Model F keyboards in my collection, not just the 50th percentile Model F. The best ones have accurate top inner assembly curves like the XT example in one of my recent posts. The middle row should be as clicky as the other rows after the corrected cases arrive.
In the mean time I expect the final remaining parts to start going into production - we will not be waiting for these top inner assembly parts to be ready before wrapping up production on the other items.
Post by: dotcom on Sun, 28 May 2017, 09:39:29
I did have a fairly minor change request to my order--I sent you an email with the details. I also have some questions regarding one of vintage keyboard listing on your website I hope to discuss in detail with you soon.
Thanks again for making this happen. I'm very happy and proud to be a part of this incredible project.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 May 2017, 11:25:19
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 May 2017, 13:11:15
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: dotcom on Sun, 28 May 2017, 19:30:57
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 28 May 2017, 19:36:08
Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62::eek: :eek: :eek:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Wow, good thing I ordered an extra black ultra compact case and black keyset for my F77! :cool:
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 May 2017, 20:53:25
Post by: mrduul on Mon, 29 May 2017, 05:00:13
Post by: dante on Mon, 29 May 2017, 13:06:33
XMIT got blind sided with terrible QC on his boards.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 29 May 2017, 13:29:11
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 29 May 2017, 14:38:34
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 29 May 2017, 20:33:11
Typing on the ultra compact F77 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F77:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Ohhh FVCK ME, that is the MOST beautiful picture yet of a Model-F inside an aluminium case :o :o :o .
Dare I say it here, that it looks like some high end Korean Custom Keyboard........
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 29 May 2017, 21:31:28
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 30 May 2017, 00:26:06
Holy crap... That f77 is so beautiful... My hype is growing.
Oh YES, it is 8) .
Ellipse knows how much flange to apply and there is heaps around this one and considering my insane love for extra flange, this keyboard design is the one to own.
Think even the Koreans would be proud of this one.
Post by: tron on Tue, 30 May 2017, 17:32:35
Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Is it possible to buy a second ultra compact case in black and request the default case color and caps be changed? I purchased a grey ultra compact with printed caps installed by default and black caps as a side order, however, I was hoping I could buy a second black case and change the default to black case and black caps with the grey case and printed caps as the side order.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 30 May 2017, 22:20:38
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 31 May 2017, 17:33:42
reececonrad yes you can configure layouts when placing your order by using the drop down menus. No one will be getting stepped caps (though you can order them from Unicomp or others).
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 31 May 2017, 20:54:22
Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:I have made the right choice on all black!!!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Godspeed.
Post by: MaNiFeX on Wed, 31 May 2017, 23:44:37
Typing on the ultra compact F77 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F77:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Holy ****. That's beautiful.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 01 June 2017, 03:16:58
Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:I have made the right choice on all black!!!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Godspeed.
Yeah me too :) Definitely prefer the original F62 case but the F77 in the compact case is looking good!
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 01 June 2017, 20:00:03
Oh for sure, Classic case is the only case in my mind!!!Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:I have made the right choice on all black!!!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Godspeed.
Yeah me too :) Definitely prefer the original F62 case but the F77 in the compact case is looking good!
Post by: mrduul on Fri, 02 June 2017, 14:34:30
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 03 June 2017, 15:12:21
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Thanks mrduul!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 04 June 2017, 18:39:50
Thanks to the wide variety of customizations, the factory will be assembling over 150 variations of layouts, keys, and case colors. I will ask them to put a post it or other paper on the box to number each variation so I can examine and ship each one in sequence of serial number.
The F77 has unexpectedly taken over to become the more popular keyboard compared to the F62.
We are running low on F77 early bird cases - if anyone wants to switch to F62 or F77 Black it would be appreciated!
New Production Keyboards:
F77 260
F62 191
Compact F77 44
Compact F62 38
Grand Total 533
Layouts:
ANSI Enter 239
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 137
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 101
ISO (please note which layout you want) 38
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 7
Selected items:
Extra Flipper and Spring 1842
Extra Barrel 1404
4 Extra bumpers 149
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 147
Unprinted 1U key 89
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 84
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 77
FirstAidKit 66
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 49
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122) 47
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 45
HHKB 6 Key Set 27
Extra F77 Case 25
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 25
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver" 23
Clear relegendable cap+squared edge stem (original IBM) 11
Extra PCB 5
Original IBM Model M keycap set (limited QTY avail.) 5
Extra top inner assembly 3
Case Orders, Excl. Extra Cases
F77
Color: Industrial Gray 142
Color: Off-White/Beige 75
Color: Black 37
Color: Silver Gray 3
Color: True Red 3
F62
Color: Off-White/Beige 96
Color: Industrial Gray 51
Color: Black 36
Color: True Red 7
Color: Silver Gray 1
Compact F77
Color: Black 31
Color: Gray 13
Compact F62
Color: Gray 19
Color: Black 19
Key Sets, Excl. Extra Sets
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 346
Keys: Black unprinted keys 54
Keys: Regular color blank keys 54
Keys: International layout 37
Keys: Use your own keys 29
Extra Key Sets
Full Base Key Set?: 103 Key Set with 6 Stabilizer Inserts:
Blank or Printed Base Set?: Printed (Pearl/Pebble Color) 19
Blank or Printed Base Set?: Blank Unprinted (Black Color) 12
Blank or Printed Base Set?: Blank (Pearl/Pebble Color) 5
Blank or Printed Base Set?: Printed (Blue Color) 1
Blank or Printed Base Set?: Printed 1
Full Base Key Set?: 103 Key Set with 6 Stabilizer Inserts Total 38
F77 Right Side Block
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys 181
0-9 and cursor keys 87
Unconfigured default 36
Extra Bumper Type
Bumper type: 2 Large rubber bumpers (left of photo) with screw and nut plus 2 dome (middle of photo) 48
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 other pictured bumpers (please specify in the notes) 29
Bumper type: 4 square 24
Bumper type: 4 dome (middle of photo) 13
Bumper type: 2 dome (middle of photo) + 2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 13
Bumper type: 2 dome + 2 square 9
Bumper type: 2 square (top right)+2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 9
Bumper type: 4 Cork 3
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 cylindrical bumpers 1
Grand Total 149
Post by: Atredl on Sun, 04 June 2017, 18:44:44
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 04 June 2017, 23:34:53
Does the HHKB split right shift with fn key require a different PCB and barrel plate? I ordered the standard ANSI layout F77 and an extra set of black blank keys with additional printed pebble HHKB 6 key set. It's been a while since I ordered, so I'm not entirely sure what my intention was, but I think I was under the impression that I could switch between the default ANSI and HHKB split right shift layouts with a simple key swap. If that's not the case, I think I need to modify my order a bit.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 June 2017, 06:28:55
Post by: joey on Mon, 05 June 2017, 06:32:36
Post by: axtran on Mon, 05 June 2017, 07:25:53
Post by: a_ak57 on Mon, 05 June 2017, 08:14:46
dotcom I suggest the standard HHKB style mapping for the F62, which will be the expected default configuration (you can change this yourself using the xwhatsit GUI). http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/doc/hhkbp2_basic_layout.png
Just to clarify, will these actually be shipping with the HHKB arrows and such mapped on the function layer or just the F-key row?
Also regarding the order stats, interesting to see that the industrial gray is considerably more prominent with the F77 and same with beige with the F62. Is that a historical accuracy thing and those were the more common colors for each?
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 05 June 2017, 15:37:14
You can switch between the two on one pcb. The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.
Ok, that makes sense, especially after looking at the barrel positions on a Model M. I think I'll keep my order how it is since I'll probably want the default layout, but the extra caps will give me the flexibility of adding another key if I want to try it albeit in a transposed position. Thank you for the response!
Also, thank you for the blog post update and updated order numbers. Very interesting read.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 June 2017, 16:55:27
ak57 there will be no secondary legends on the key sides but yes arrows and such will all be mapped in the firmware by default (you can change this in the configuration software). I believe seeing the F77 case in Industrial Gray on the web site photos and the F62 in Beige encouraged those choices more than others.
Post by: str8away on Mon, 05 June 2017, 17:46:07
You can switch between the two on one pcb. The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.
Can you switch between the two with the hhkb style pcb?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 June 2017, 17:56:55
Post by: str8away on Mon, 05 June 2017, 18:03:53
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
So is there a different 2.75 right shift for the hhkb pcb? Won't the regular shift's stems/posts be in the wrong place or am I overthinking this?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 June 2017, 18:20:11
Post by: str8away on Mon, 05 June 2017, 18:27:46
Same key but the right shift's two pads are in slightly different places on the standard vs. HHKB PCB. The standard PCB allows for 1U, 1.75U or 2.75U in the right shift, while the HHKB pcb allows only 1.75U, 1U in that location.
Yep ok that's what I thought.
So you can only use the 2.75U right shift on the regular pcb. With the HHKB pcb you're stuck with the 1.75U and 1U layout.
Thanks for the clarification.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 06 June 2017, 17:55:35
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 06 June 2017, 18:01:05
I was thinking it could be written in the old formatting/layout like the manuals of the 80s/90s, maybe with some old-style illustrations/line art/product photos?
Post by: str8away on Tue, 06 June 2017, 18:08:48
Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split. A couple people are doing this.
Hmmm interesting how much is that?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 06 June 2017, 18:34:45
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 06 June 2017, 19:34:24
This is what I went with, well worth the money seeing as you may not be able to find one in the future.Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split. A couple people are doing this.
Hmmm interesting how much is that?
Post by: Kavik on Tue, 06 June 2017, 22:03:27
This is what I went with, well worth the money seeing as you may not be able to find one in the future.Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split. A couple people are doing this.
Hmmm interesting how much is that?
It's this kind of thinking that's caused me to spend $602 on this GB already :'( . I don't know if I can bear anymore at the moment. If I need anything else, I think I'll wait until the second round to order it once I've had time to play with it and decide.
Post by: axtran on Tue, 06 June 2017, 23:46:34
Post by: NathanA on Tue, 06 June 2017, 23:58:26
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Wait, now I'm confused. Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form? At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option. Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?
-- Nathan
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 07 June 2017, 00:20:44
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Wait, now I'm confused. Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form? At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option. Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?
-- Nathan
In a similar vein, I was hoping for a layout similar to my Black Bird for the split right shift, split backspace, ANSI enter. Shown here: http://imgur.com/a/Q79Ij
This is achieved by just selecting split right shift and split backspace. Maintaining an ANSI enter right?
Post by: NathanA on Wed, 07 June 2017, 03:07:19
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Wait, now I'm confused. Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form? At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option. Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?
-- Nathan
Okay never mind; just saw your (Ellipse's) response on the other forum to somebody asking essentially the same question. :)
So difference just comes down to placement of left Ctrl and CapsLock? When ordering "HHKB split shift + 2U Backspace" with a full non-blank keyset (which I assume puts Ctrl where CL normally goes on ANSI layout and vice-versa), you also ship the regular ANSI keys anyway right?
I'll probably end up using "everything else ANSI" layout, but if the other keys are included anyway then no sense in having you waste time changing my order, presuming the controller is easy enough to reprogram (never used this particular controller, but the impression I get is that it's not that hard to change/re-map stuff).
-- Nathan
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 07 June 2017, 23:56:40
Yes I think that would be the options to pick for a similar layout Mr_BeastQuake
Yes axtran feel free to PM me for changes.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 June 2017, 22:03:50
Does anyone want to change their F77 case color to Black, Silver Gray, or True Red? I would appreciate it! Both the Industrial Gray and Off-White/Beige F77 options have proven far more popular than I had expected and we are running low on stock.
We are also running very low on Ultra Compact Keyboards and might run out in a month or two for the early bird round - if you wanted a compact keyboard in the early bird round please reserve one soon!
[attachimg=1]
Below I am reposting links to some Model F manuals posted by segacontroller on DT:
A quick search yielded this from the XT.
http://www.retroarchive.org/dos/docs/ibm5160techref.pdf
Keyboard starts on 1-65 (PDF page 78). Not too robust, but I think this would be the style of the original manual?
**
Here is the technical reference guide for the IB 5155 which has much more information.
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals/IBM_5155_5160_Technical_Reference_6280089_MAR86.pdf
Key Board section is section 4, and starts on PDF page 97.
**
Also found this product picture from the model M. Would this be the style you are looking for?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MmCpjSMMNFU/UcsAAcS8d-I/AAAAAAAAADE/O7TXRePBKjk/w2048-h1215/1986_modelm_promo.jpg
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 09 June 2017, 01:03:46
Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 09 June 2017, 04:02:10
Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.
I paid for an Industrial Gray model simply because it is darker, compared to Silver Gray.
Plus Industrial Gray is the first ever model colour used along with IBM Beige, for these type of keyboards. If you want old time precision always go full Retro, that way strangers may think you actually own an original Model-F keyboard built years ago :thumb: .
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 09 June 2017, 07:27:12
Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.
I paid for an Industrial Gray model simply because it is darker, compared to Silver Gray.
Plus Industrial Gray is the first ever model colour used along with IBM Beige, for these type of keyboards. If you want old time precision always go full Retro, that way strangers may think you actually own an original Model-F keyboard built years ago :thumb: .
Ha, that was actually my line of thinking also. I like the industrial gray because it looks original, and it is, afterall, a reproduction.
Post by: NathanA on Fri, 09 June 2017, 09:25:54
-- Nathan
Post by: tron on Fri, 09 June 2017, 09:57:36
The "reproduction" aspect is definitely strong, and if I were interested in a gray case I think it would prove very tempting to choose the Industrial variety for that reason, but my own OCD personality type would likely be more concerned about how closely the gray key caps match with the gray casing. Is Silver Gray closer to the gray key caps, or is Industrial Gray? I ask merely to satisfy my own curiosity, though others who do want a gray case may find the answer to this question informative as well.
-- Nathan
I couldn't decide so in addition to my ultra modern black on black, I ordered the original style F62 in silver gray and added off white beige and industrial grey cases as a side order. I may sell the extras after viewing them on my desk, although an extra original style case a great deal considering the build quality and finish.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 10 June 2017, 14:49:52
All Model F experts please contribute to the Model F Owner's Manual now up on www.modelfkeyboards.com/wiki
It is aimed at helping both the original keyboards as well as the reproductions.
It will help provide buckling spring owners (everyone from beginners to advanced users) with a central place to learn key re-seating, disassembly, spring replacement, changing the layout, etc.
[attachimg=1]
Kavik here are examples of the colors side by side (these are subject to change due to slight factory variations). I also show below two photos comparing the original IBM to the reproduction colors to show how close they are. Please note though that the photos are not 100% accurate in terms of color.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 11 June 2017, 20:19:02
The factory expects to spend two more weeks perfecting the injection molds for the keys, as well as mixing the PBT plastic to get the perfect colors for pearl, pebble, and Industrial SSK blue. The flash (excess plastic) has not been removed from these test keys.
The key texture has not yet been applied to the top of the key molds so they appear shiny/unfinished in these photos. As always the colors of these photos are not accurate.
Industrial SSK blue full 103 key sets (with and without legends) are available to order if anyone wants them.
Once I approve the keys, production can start on the keys.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 12 June 2017, 09:03:08
PBT Key tests from the factory:
The factory expects to spend two more weeks perfecting the injection molds for the keys, as well as mixing the PBT plastic to get the perfect colors for pearl, pebble, and Industrial SSK blue. The flash (excess plastic) has not been removed from these test keys.
The key texture has not yet been applied to the top of the key molds so they appear shiny/unfinished in these photos. As always the colors of these photos are not accurate.
Industrial SSK blue full 103 key sets (with and without legends) are available to order if anyone wants them.
Once I approve the keys, production can start on the keys.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Nice! Was going to pick up a set of blue keycaps but I'm not seeing the option for blue on the website
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 12 June 2017, 10:58:03
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 12 June 2017, 19:25:10
Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?
It will ALWAYS be PBT because when building to IBM specs, it's the ONLY material used for all key-caps 8) .
Post by: axtran on Mon, 12 June 2017, 23:37:03
PM'd you some order adjustments (color). :)
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 13 June 2017, 01:50:25
Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?
It will ALWAYS be PBT because when building to IBM specs, it's the ONLY material used for all key-caps 8) .
ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS. Does acetone solve PBT?
Post by: NathanA on Tue, 13 June 2017, 02:08:17
ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS.
???
They've always been PBT, they currently are PBT (Unicomp), and as long as they continue to be manufactured, always will be PBT.
Have you ever seen a Model F or M with yellowed keycaps? (Rhetorical question. Answer: no.)
-- Nathan
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 13 June 2017, 11:13:05
ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS.
???
They've always been PBT, they currently are PBT (Unicomp), and as long as they continue to be manufactured, always will be PBT.
Have you ever seen a Model F or M with yellowed keycaps? (Rhetorical question. Answer: no.)
-- Nathan
Huh. Didn't realize they were PBT. Always felt so ABS-y to me.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 13 June 2017, 19:33:25
Yes the keys are all PBT.
Post by: All About Jake on Thu, 15 June 2017, 06:21:34
I don't suppose there has been any change in the ability to do some Apple Modifiers? I know that the apple folks were in the minority so it was out of scope.
Just asking. because the project has grown and I figured it didn't hurt to ask. :)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 15 June 2017, 16:20:54
We are a few orders away from the big quarter million dollar mark!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 15 June 2017, 21:18:10
As we wait for final tooling at the factory before production finishes up, all the completed parts are waiting in their boxes, ready to be assembled in the coming months - reposting some photos here:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 15 June 2017, 21:39:10
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 15 June 2017, 22:22:30
Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)? There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards. If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.
Dolch uses white legends on a dark grey background IMPOSSIBLE to do with PBT dye-sub. If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.
What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here, so he is sticking with what IBM has used all those years ago when decent engineering was paramount in the manufacture of this device.
I don't personally mind having one or two colours for the buckling spring key switches simply because it's what works and is easily recognized. If you want Dolch best go with the standard Cherry based switches and be content with what's on offer in that very shallow pool of indifference 8) .
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 15 June 2017, 22:49:17
Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)? There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards. If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.
Dolch uses white legends on a dark grey background IMPOSSIBLE to do with PBT dye-sub. If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.
What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here, so he is sticking with what IBM has used all those years ago when decent engineering was paramount in the manufacture of this device.
I don't personally mind having one or two colours for the buckling spring key switches simply because it's what works and is easily recognized. If you want Dolch best go with the standard Cherry based switches and be content with what's on offer in that very shallow pool of indifference 8) .
Good point about dye-sub and Dolch; that was a bad example. I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the notion of other colorways, though. "shallow pool of indifference" would also be a good description of Unicomp's keycap offerings. Given what the keycap market is like for mx-based boards and the large set of existing buckling spring keyboards out there, that seems like an opportunity that someone else will eventually capitalize on. Why not Ellipse?
I've had a model M on my desk at home and at work (SSKs, mostly) for the past 10-15 years. I've only recently started looking at what else was out there out of curiosity as to whether I'd benefit from going smaller than an SSK. I can't say I care much for any of the modern keyswitches I've tried so far, but I do envy them their keycap choices and the 65% layout.
Post by: NathanA on Thu, 15 June 2017, 23:13:14
If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.
Agreed that pad printing is teh suck, but couldn't you come up with some quality white-on-black keycaps using double-shot injection molds?
I'd kill for some Model F/M double-shot white-on-black PBT caps personally. It might be difficult (though not impossible) to construct such a beast in the single-piece style, but surely it would be possible to manufacture the top part of the two-piece variant with double-shot injection (it'd maybe be slightly thicker than a normal cap though).
-- Nathan
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 15 June 2017, 23:17:01
...I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the notion of other colorways, though. "shallow pool of indifference"...
I see you're new here. Meet Elrick. He know's his stuff but also try not to take him so seriously.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 16 June 2017, 00:03:29
What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here
Yes I think we're aware of that at this point.
Seriously though. Ellipse, get into the custom Model M cap game. You would make a killing.
And **** it, make em out of ABS so you have more color options. Do they really NEED to be PBT? Like will an ABS version break?
Post by: Pete on Fri, 16 June 2017, 12:15:00
Post by: duface on Fri, 16 June 2017, 14:24:20
Yeah, they kind of do. ABS wears down much faster. It's why your ABS keys get shiny and smooth over time. PBT is wayyy more resistant to that kind of wear.What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here
Yes I think we're aware of that at this point.
Seriously though. Ellipse, get into the custom Model M cap game. You would make a killing.
And **** it, make em out of ABS so you have more color options. Do they really NEED to be PBT? Like will an ABS version break?
I don't think the market for buckling spring caps is that big. 99% of the market is cherry.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 June 2017, 16:38:49
Yes we are sticking with high quality PBT caps.
Correct I cannot dye sublimate a lighter color onto a darker key cap color due to the limitations of dye sub tech.
I looked into pad printing and given the very high MOQ I am not pursuing it. I am not doing double shot-requires different molds to be made.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 16 June 2017, 19:44:50
I can look into other color options for the final round but I would need minimum commitments - probably at least 10-20 key sets. Please let me know if you know of any popular color options you'd think would be good.
Yes we are sticking with high quality PBT caps.
Correct I cannot dye sublimate a lighter color onto a darker key cap color due to the limitations of dye sub tech.
I looked into pad printing and given the very high MOQ I am not pursuing it. I am not doing double shot-requires different molds to be made.
Glad you didn't get into PAD Printing because that would of killed this Group Buy for me :( .
Stick with the ORIGINAL key-cap colour-way because when all is said and done the morons who pick brightly coloured key-caps today, usually end up selling them eventually or getting rid of them. The standard colour-way for Model-Fs is ALWAYS there, no matter the years that pass and no matter the age of the person who bought it, they will always stay the same.
Buckling Spring is an AMERICAN icon switch hence keep the standard, if you start making Pink, Yellow, Red or Purple key-sets they will be used once then thrown away. The essence of children wanting a different colour but as they age, that choice they had made is their misery to own along with their own embarrassment.
Buckling Spring isn't a Cherry switch with tonnes of different profiles and colours being available to it. Stick with the original colour-way so that 20 to 40 years in the future your own grand kiddies can see what an awesome keyboard this is as well as it's enduring design in key-caps.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 16 June 2017, 21:17:52
PLEASE make sure ALL of the legends are adjusted perfectly on every key cap here, forget about adding numerous colours if the legends are lop sided or placed stupidly all over the key-caps.
Don't forget what Unicomp has done to their dye-sub keys in which they totally stuffed up the legends with ultra poor quality legend placement making them look vastly inferior. What ever you do Ellipse don't copy Unicomp in any way particularly their current lack of quality in manufacturing key-caps.
YOU have to set the standard here because IBM is no longer in the picture of making their once superior key-switch and their own key-caps, hence it is all up to you now to show the world and leave something in historical records when the future arrives and sees your work for what it shall be, a fantastic reproduction of the original Model-F keyboard in every detail.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 16 June 2017, 22:48:06
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sat, 17 June 2017, 00:00:21
Elrick have you ever considered the possibility that, like, maybe people want something other than what you do? Like, I mean just to be real specific, that they don't share your opinions? Does that make any sense to you? I can try to be more specific if you'd like, let me know. In the meantime, just something for you to consider. Food for though, so to speak.
:rolleyes:
Are you, like, the opinion police? I'm pretty sure he's aware. Let the man have his say, his posts are quality
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sat, 17 June 2017, 00:51:41
Post by: stoic-lemon on Sat, 17 June 2017, 08:10:39
Elrick have you ever considered the possibility that, like, maybe people want something other than what you do? Like, I mean just to be real specific, that they don't share your opinions? Does that make any sense to you? I can try to be more specific if you'd like, let me know. In the meantime, just something for you to consider. Food for though, so to speak.
:rolleyes:
Are you, like, the opinion police? I'm pretty sure he's aware. Let the man have his say, his posts are quality
Nobody ever calls him out on his BS, so I see no problem in someone disagreeing with his ott posts which dismiss and often attack anyone with a different opinion.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 19 June 2017, 17:18:21
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 21 June 2017, 04:02:43
Elrick is abrasive. You get used to it.And maybe even learn to love it.. ;)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 21 June 2017, 06:06:47
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 21 June 2017, 10:21:31
Elrick is abrasive. You get used to it.And maybe even learn to love it.. ;)
Not a chance.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 21 June 2017, 12:33:36
Elrick is abrasive. You get used to it.
^
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 22 June 2017, 01:52:17
Yes atlas. Only a few people are getting special sets like Unicomp APL. I will not be making those. Most APL orderers switched to the new keys.
Thanks, pm'd.
Post by: axtran on Fri, 23 June 2017, 10:53:42
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 24 June 2017, 16:32:28
Sorry for the delay axtran
Post by: Latin00032 on Sat, 24 June 2017, 16:49:31
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)Thanks for bringing them out!
Sorry for the delay axtran
You made me a believer out of me.
I have to get in on this now.
Post by: smt on Sat, 24 June 2017, 21:12:27
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)
It was quite an experience, getting to try out your prototypes. Moreso, a pleasure to meet you in person. Lovely work - it is clearly a labor of love, what you're doing.
I come from the MX world, as a relatively new enthusiast. Never had an opportunity to type on buckling springs (at least as an adult) until today, so I didn't know what to expect. The keys were buttery smooth, yet tactile, and audibly... assertive. A real pleasure to type on.
The zinc cases were most impressive. Very hefty and solid. As you mentioned, the anodized aluminum cases need further improvement, but they'll also be very nice once they get there.
I appreciated the quick demo you gave me of the key mapping utility as you were getting ready to leave. Thanks for doing that! I've never used this firmware before, so it was great to see what I was in for.
Thanks for coming out!
Post by: alienman82 on Sat, 24 June 2017, 22:13:52
Post by: nickheller on Sat, 24 June 2017, 22:54:36
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)
Sorry for the delay axtran
Really nice to meet you! I brought an original model F AT to the meetup, and can say I didn't notice a difference in feel really. The F77 looked so good. really considering one now
Really want to order a f62 now...
Post by: stoic-lemon on Sun, 25 June 2017, 01:37:46
Post by: cicada on Sun, 25 June 2017, 03:07:35
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sun, 25 June 2017, 03:13:19
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)
Sorry for the delay axtran
Really nice to meet you! I brought an original model F AT to the meetup, and can say I didn't notice a difference in feel really. The F77 looked so good. really considering one now
Really want to order a f62 now...
Seems like everyone there at keycon had good impression with them. I've been trying to cut down on kb purchases lately but I think I really should order an f62 now or else I'll regret it later
I'm definitely buying one or both now. Killer boards.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 25 June 2017, 21:14:22
Nice to see some positive impressions.
A newly built Model-F will always do that to you :thumb: .
Even those pathetic fools that use to worship Cherry and their clones, come away amazed when they first use an authentic Model-F keyboard.
In the end those with low- IQ's tend to be happy in their ignorance and will miss in owning this spectacular keyboard but those who know what a real Model-F is like, will benefit from owning this newly resurrected piece of history, done to perfection.
Never feel sorry for the foolish and the ignorant, they deserve to only have poorly designed and manufactured keyboards, since they can not even comprehend in owning and using an Ellipse keyboard within their dull lives.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 25 June 2017, 23:31:37
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Post by: futurecrime on Mon, 26 June 2017, 04:24:13
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Hype. Lots and lots of hype.
Post by: joey on Mon, 26 June 2017, 04:31:41
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 26 June 2017, 11:14:01
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Yeah, along with those of everyone else too. Shows what kind of community we got here that lets a guy like that spread his toxicity around freely. Just goes to show, doesnt it?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 26 June 2017, 11:36:21
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Yeah, along with those of everyone else too. Shows what kind of community we got here that lets a guy like that spread his toxicity around freely. Just goes to show, doesnt it?
Well you can either report his message or ignore all his posts.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 26 June 2017, 12:38:19
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Yeah, along with those of everyone else too. Shows what kind of community we got here that lets a guy like that spread his toxicity around freely. Just goes to show, doesnt it?
Well you can either report his message or ignore all his posts.
Thanks for the tip. I reported his comment.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 June 2017, 19:06:59
If there are any more meetups coming up please let me know. I might be out in northern CA for a week or so this summer in case anyone is doing a meetup.
Post by: Latin00032 on Mon, 26 June 2017, 21:24:40
I don't think I saw a red option.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 27 June 2017, 07:59:31
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 27 June 2017, 16:42:43
Post by: ipreferpie on Tue, 27 June 2017, 22:49:17
Post by: DZed on Wed, 28 June 2017, 13:06:27
[attach=1]
Here are the num/nav pad options for the F77. #3 is a layout that I came up with and Ellipse thought it might be worth offering.
[attach=2]
As I was working up the key/legend list, various additional possibilities started coming to mind. Some of these keys may end up in the kits which are currently offered, some may end up in an extra kit(s) and some may be a bit too ambitious to produce (media keys?). Now is the time to offer any feedback you have for novelties or whatever you might like to add. Items circled in red have placeholder legends, all the arrows and such are actual artwork from the reproduction font.
[attach=3]
Hope this proves useful. I will post a few layout pics soon as well as the current state of the F font reproduction.
Post by: DZed on Wed, 28 June 2017, 13:30:37
[attach=1]
Some mockups of the various optional key sets.
[attach=2]
Better renders with the reproduction font will follow but I wanted to get this posted before the ordering deadline.
Post by: jzono1 on Wed, 28 June 2017, 16:51:03
I still have to put in three of the four keyboards I'll be ordering. One of each in True Red. One black and one industrial grey. I think I want an Industrial Grey F62, but now that I see the SSK keyset I'm not sure anymore. Can I still get the F77 in Industrial Grey?
The Industrial SSK key set looks incredible. How do I order it?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 June 2017, 19:21:15
Thanks again Zed. Once the higher resolution screenshots are ready please send them over and I will post on the web site.
Post by: DZed on Wed, 28 June 2017, 19:28:27
Post by: a_ak57 on Wed, 28 June 2017, 22:01:19
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 June 2017, 22:09:32
Post by: ricyuyc on Wed, 28 June 2017, 22:59:14
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 June 2017, 23:42:41
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 29 June 2017, 02:26:06
The only colors for my keys are the standard pearl/pebble, black, and Industrial SSK blue.
Thanks Ellipse for still holding firm over 'original colours' verses all the fairy-like colours that so many idiot-millennials would want.
Some of them do not even know how to dress, let alone choose correct colours for anything ;D .
As always love your work and keep it going all the way to the finish, which will be SUPERB.
Post by: joey on Thu, 29 June 2017, 02:30:04
ricyuyc feel free to order this store item and choose free/other shipping - https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/set-of-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/Is this the 'standard' set I will get by default?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 June 2017, 06:25:11
Post by: futurecrime on Thu, 29 June 2017, 07:20:34
Now is the time to offer any feedback you have for novelties or whatever you might like to add.
I'd love a backspace key to replace capslock for Colemak. Ellipse suggested ordering a blank but hey if we're making requests then why not. x
Post by: a_ak57 on Thu, 29 June 2017, 10:38:12
The font will resemble that of the original XT keyboards - not too far off from Unicomp's font. I don't think it would be an issue. The only colors for my keys are the standard pearl/pebble, black, and Industrial SSK blue.
Cool, thanks for the info. I also realized if I don't like it I could just throw the caps on my Unicomp board anyway. Pretty excited for this project though, I finally may find a switch that could challenge my topre love, and (for me) with an HHKB layout no less?
Post by: stoic-lemon on Thu, 29 June 2017, 12:30:48
Now is the time to offer any feedback you have for novelties or whatever you might like to add.
I'd love a backspace key to replace capslock for Colemak. Ellipse suggested ordering a blank but hey if we're making requests then why not. x
Me too!
Post by: DZed on Thu, 29 June 2017, 12:40:38
Post by: dotcom on Fri, 30 June 2017, 08:19:52
Thanks for your consideration! I'm super stoked!
Post by: duynguyenle on Fri, 30 June 2017, 18:40:46
Here are the various layout options offered for the F62 and F77. Posted for those still sitting on the fence as the early bird deadline approaches!
(Attachment Link)
Some mockups of the various optional key sets.
(Attachment Link)
Better renders with the reproduction font will follow but I wanted to get this posted before the ordering deadline.
My order actually has a layout that isn't in those visuals (ISO, but with additional split right shift). Will this be possible? Or will I have to change it back to standard ISO?
Also, really great job on those legends, I have always been partial to icon-only modifiers, and this really tickle my fancy :D
Post by: DZed on Fri, 30 June 2017, 19:10:21
Here are the various layout options offered for the F62 and F77. Posted for those still sitting on the fence as the early bird deadline approaches!
(Attachment Link)
Some mockups of the various optional key sets.
(Attachment Link)
Better renders with the reproduction font will follow but I wanted to get this posted before the ordering deadline.
My order actually has a layout that isn't in those visuals (ISO, but with additional split right shift). Will this be possible? Or will I have to change it back to standard ISO?
Also, really great job on those legends, I have always been partial to icon-only modifiers, and this really tickle my fancy :D
Thanks duynguyenle it seems Ellipse is also a fan of the icon only option so hopefully we will be able to get those keys made. My layouts were not comprehensive given that the project offers all sorts of customization, I couldn't easily show every possible option. I would think you are OK. Especially if the order went through without any problems but that is up to Ellipse to say for sure.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 July 2017, 16:03:45
Soon the key molds will be bottlenecking the project if the molds are not to spec in a month or so. For that reason I am thinking of replacing the mold subcontractor with another one that I've worked with before. This will eliminate further delays on the keys. I was expecting this key issue to be fixed at the start of June.
The HHKB style F62/F77 comes iwth the 1.5U Delete key with backspace as the function layer, to match the HHKB original. I can take extra orders if some people want Back- space, the icon only, or the like on the keyboard.
The #3 F77 right side block will be available but it will be extra and not installed on the keyboards. I will not be printing custom front legends besides the front printed F1, etc. set and the Industrial SSK set.
Zed everything looks great!
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 03 July 2017, 20:34:04
Soon the key molds will be bottlenecking the project if the molds are not to spec in a month or so. For that reason I am thinking of replacing the mold subcontractor with another one that I've worked with before. This will eliminate further delays on the keys. I was expecting this key issue to be fixed at the start of June.
ALWAYS stick with the contractor you have worked with before because we here in no man's land, knows what it's like trusting another sub-contractor to do the job and fails all because they were cheap and the accountants were happy with the low-ball quote.
If we had stuck with our original contractor the job would of been done within time and budget, which overall saved us a whole lot further on down the line.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 July 2017, 21:19:52
I am looking into having the springs made in the US at higher cost if the factory's next samples do not sound right.
Maybe I should write a book on all this after production ends in the coming months? Of course typed on a brand new F77 :)
Post by: DZed on Tue, 04 July 2017, 19:02:43
Post by: duynguyenle on Tue, 04 July 2017, 19:23:29
Latest update for the XT Quality font.
That's really nice... I'm still happy with the F62 I ordered for now, but if the initial round goes well, I think I will pick up a F77 in the second production round in order to complete the duo.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 July 2017, 19:44:33
These are going to look great on all our F62 and F77 keyboards!
Great duynguyenle - everyone will have time to try out the first round boards for a month or two at least before the final round ends.
Do people prefer the pebble `~ key for the HHKB layout? Everyone will be getting the pearl version as the default and the pebble `~ is not part of the HHKB key set but I could probably make them available as an extra key.
Post by: robotsokk on Tue, 04 July 2017, 21:35:57
Do people prefer the pebble `~ key for the HHKB layout? Everyone will be getting the pearl version as the default and the pebble `~ is not part of the HHKB key set but I could probably make them available as an extra key.
I personally went with an all black set, but like the idea of having the option to use a pebble key for `~
Also, when is the *very* last round? I'm still on the fence about picking up an alt case for my F62...
Post by: Gamecat on Tue, 04 July 2017, 21:54:28
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 04 July 2017, 22:52:20
Zed sent me the SVG of the XT font and the legends are near perfect! I printed them out 100% on my laser printer and did some digital micrometer spot checks.Yup, please include the pebble '~ key for us symmetry freaks.
These are going to look great on all our F62 and F77 keyboards!
Great duynguyenle - everyone will have time to try out the first round boards for a month or two at least before the final round ends.
Do people prefer the pebble `~ key for the HHKB layout? Everyone will be getting the pearl version as the default and the pebble `~ is not part of the HHKB key set but I could probably make them available as an extra key.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 July 2017, 23:22:32
The second and last round is the final round later this year.
If anyone wants the custom pebble/dark gray `~ key please order 3 units of the store item "$1 increments" and I will make some (please add a note that it is for the pebble `~ key).
Post by: a_ak57 on Tue, 04 July 2017, 23:40:29
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 05 July 2017, 00:51:16
Post by: futurecrime on Wed, 05 July 2017, 04:08:00
Zed sent me the SVG of the XT font and the legends are near perfect! I printed them out 100% on my laser printer and did some digital micrometer spot checks.
Once aqain your attention to detail is astounding on this. I hope you're documenting the process thoroughly, it's a fantastic project.
Post by: DZed on Wed, 05 July 2017, 13:39:56
Post by: Gamecat on Wed, 05 July 2017, 13:49:06
No Gamecat the ultra compact keyboards only offer black and regular gray anodizing.
The second and last round is the final round later this year.
If anyone wants the custom pebble/dark gray `~ key please order 3 units of the store item "$1 increments" and I will make some (please add a note that it is for the pebble `~ key).
I see an option for "Another color - Please message me beforehand" on the website, is that still a possibility for the ultracompact case? If so what is the cost and how to setup?
Post by: NathanA on Wed, 05 July 2017, 15:25:31
I see an option for "Another color - Please message me beforehand" on the website, is that still a possibility for the ultracompact case?I don't think that was ever an option for the ultracompact, only the classic.
-- Nathan
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 July 2017, 16:08:49
Yes, you can just pick other/free shipping to add it to your order.
Post by: Asbrodeus on Wed, 05 July 2017, 17:34:09
Do we choose "other shipping" when adding the pebble `~ key?
wondering the same.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 July 2017, 18:28:30
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 05 July 2017, 18:32:36
Post by: robotsokk on Wed, 05 July 2017, 19:19:01
Post by: axtran on Wed, 05 July 2017, 19:48:09
Today the project is featured on the home page of www.PopularMechanics.com - a comprehensive look at the project and on the Model F keyboard.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/
That's awesome! Pretty much life goal stuff!
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 05 July 2017, 20:58:21
Today the project is featured on the home page of www.PopularMechanics.com (http://www.PopularMechanics.com) - a comprehensive look at the project and on the Model F keyboard.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/ (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/)
(Attachment Link)
Geez you've done it :o .
Appearing on Popular Mechanics, that use to be my fave mag when I was in my early teens. Onya for making it and I hope more of your fellow Americans realize what an awesome project you have accomplished here but also help them understand what a brilliant key-switch that the Model-F is.
Time for the Model-F to become the mainstay of every keyboard owner around the globe, stamp down the pitiful Cherry and other wannabes pretending to offer the only keyboard experience for millions worldwide. When they start using the Model-F, I bet every Yank within your own country would be in this Group Buy without any hesitation.
Everyone talks about how patriotic the Americans are yet where are they with this Model-F project, where are the MILLION's signing up for this unique piece of history?
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 06 July 2017, 00:52:22
Do we choose "other shipping" when adding the pebble `~ key?
wondering the same.
I emailed him and he said to choose other shipping.
Post by: futurecrime on Thu, 06 July 2017, 08:38:34
Today the project is featured on the home page of www.PopularMechanics.com - a comprehensive look at the project and on the Model F keyboard.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/
(Attachment Link)
Fantastic. Congratulations!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 06 July 2017, 17:16:17
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/252014-ibm-model-f-keyboard-returns-30-year-hiatus
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/model-f-mechanical-keyboards-buckling-spring-f77-f62,34954.html
http://techreport.com/news/32206/model-f-keyboard-gets-a-modern-reboot
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: stoic-lemon on Fri, 07 July 2017, 02:06:23
Post by: Pete on Fri, 07 July 2017, 15:25:04
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 07 July 2017, 15:50:14
Post by: Latin00032 on Fri, 07 July 2017, 20:17:45
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 07 July 2017, 21:08:02
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 July 2017, 19:50:02
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 08 July 2017, 19:58:01
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 July 2017, 19:59:04
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Latin00032 on Sat, 08 July 2017, 21:06:07
The spring-flipper attacher machine is finished! The factory did a great job designing and building this machine.Can you make a mini-video showing how it works?
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 08 July 2017, 22:30:12
The spring-flipper attacher machine is finished! The factory did a great job designing and building this machine.
I sure hope they have built at least a hundred of these because you do know you will need at least a million or so springs attached to the lower body sections?
Pity the poor soul who's job is to operate that machine constantly, just have no idea the extra time this will take especially if you want it done to a high standard.
Post by: alienman82 on Sat, 08 July 2017, 22:40:27
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 July 2017, 22:45:07
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 July 2017, 15:56:41
Latin00032 I might make a video when I am over in China (where the spring attacher is located) - I expect to head over there for final quality inspections before they ship to me and I do further QC.
Post by: robotsokk on Sun, 09 July 2017, 16:12:02
Wow the project got on the home page at TechSpot! What an honor to see the Model F on the tech news sites! https://www.techspot.com/news/70043-weekend-tech-reading-onedrive-stops-supporting-non-ntfs-ibm-model-f-diy-remote-pc-starter.html
Really awesome to see the positive press this project is (rightfully) getting! I'm sure I'll look back and be very grateful that I had a chance to join in this buy. Thanks Ellipse for all the hard work you've been putting into this project! Really stoked to see stuff like the flipper apparatus -- it's all coming together :)
Post by: Marutks on Tue, 11 July 2017, 13:29:42
This picture shows Mac Command keys next to Space.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/command-option-keys/
Do I have to order this specific layout or I can change it myself?
What about arrow keys on Kishsaver? What key combination is for them?
Post by: duynguyenle on Tue, 11 July 2017, 17:55:22
Are those keyboards programmable?
This picture shows Mac Command keys next to Space.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/command-option-keys/
Do I have to order this specific layout or I can change it myself?
What about arrow keys on Kishsaver? What key combination is for them?
Yes it's fully remappable (xwhatsit controller I believe). And since it's fully mappable including many function layers as you wish, you can place the arrow keys (and any other keys) anywhere you want.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 11 July 2017, 18:04:35
The factory default setting will match the HHKB style function layers like those here: http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/doc/hhkbp2_basic_layout.png
Of course this can be adjusted in the software once you get it.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 July 2017, 18:44:44
I continue using and testing the new Model F's and we are very close to getting the right amount of the musical reverb when typing! Even with some of the components not yet 100%.
I received the latest shipment today from the factory, including two Industrial Gray production cases and sample keys and springs.
The factory did a great job on the Industrial Gray cases. They are the correct mix of gray, green, and tan that is a cross between the greenish-tan-gray Industrial SSK and the more greenish full size Industrial M's. Nice bumpy texture and matte paint.
The latest spring samples do not match my tolerances and specifications and they have been rejected. At this point I expect to work with one of the US spring factories I've received a quote from in the past month or so (after evaluating their samples first of course). I have to absorb the costs here but it looks like everyone is expected to get US made buckling springs!
The latest keys have excellent PBT like the originals, but failed to match the tolerances and I am talking with the factory about options and next steps. May have to switch subcontractors on this part as I mentioned before; we don't want to wait forever for these sub's to improve!
[attachimg=1]
Post by: duynguyenle on Wed, 12 July 2017, 18:52:45
Production update:
I continue using and testing the new Model F's and we are very close to getting the right amount of the musical reverb when typing! Even with some of the components not yet 100%.
I received the latest shipment today from the factory, including two Industrial Gray production cases and sample keys and springs.
The factory did a great job on the Industrial Gray cases. They are the correct mix of gray, green, and tan that is a cross between the greenish-tan-gray Industrial SSK and the more greenish full size Industrial M's. Nice bumpy texture and matte paint.
The latest spring samples do not match my tolerances and specifications and they have been rejected. At this point I expect to work with one of the US spring factories I've received a quote from in the past month or so (after evaluating their samples first of course). I have to absorb the costs here but it looks like everyone is expected to get US made buckling springs!
The latest keys have excellent PBT like the originals, but failed to match the tolerances and I am talking with the factory about options and next steps. May have to switch subcontractors on this part as I mentioned before; we don't want to wait forever for these sub's to improve!
(Attachment Link)
Have you got any pictures to share of the Industrial Grey cases? Really want to see that one, as that's the colour I ordered!
Post by: NathanA on Wed, 12 July 2017, 20:23:40
The latest spring samples do not match my tolerances and specifications and they have been rejected.You rock. :thumb:
-- Nathan
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 12 July 2017, 20:41:53
Could you go into more detail about what about the springs and keycaps do not match your specifications? Have you tested them within a keyboard? How do they operate? I'd like to better understand your basis for rejecting these parts.
Also, what is the updated timeline given that you have to reject the springs and the keycaps? Can we in any way expect to see these keyboards before the end of the year?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 July 2017, 21:41:43
The springs are too short in inner diameter (not fitting onto the flippers properly). Some of the samples require too much force to press. Some do not buckle reliably. The factory has had several tries but has been unable to make the springs to spec so I am not using that subcontractor.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 13 July 2017, 20:44:17
Production update:
The factory did a great job on the Industrial Gray cases. They are the correct mix of gray, green, and tan that is a cross between the greenish-tan-gray Industrial SSK and the more greenish full size Industrial M's. Nice bumpy texture and matte paint.
PLEASE provide the pics of these miraculous colors chosen, this will help keep us who bought F77's excited for another few months yet :o .
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 14 July 2017, 09:39:49
Would love to see some more photos whenever you get time, Ellipse
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 14 July 2017, 12:13:48
Mod Edit: Removed quotes of deleted posts
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 14 July 2017, 12:48:34
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 14 July 2017, 12:49:12
racism
bitter personal attack
Elrick: Keep your ****ty racist opinions to yourself. Your experience with Chinese equipment doesn't mean what you said isn't racist. It's not allowed on this forum.
PancakeMSTR: Just drop it and report posts you feel break forum rules. Contempt and vitriol will only make things worse. You can also put Elrick on ignore.
Just stay on topic folks.
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 14 July 2017, 12:49:56
What hoff said.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 14 July 2017, 15:58:09
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
Post by: bthezebra on Fri, 14 July 2017, 16:06:37
I was planning to have it as a general use board and determine my overall satisfaction with the switches. I will definitely attempt to game with it but more than likely this will be used when filling out forms, updating resume, and maybe my go-to when taking excell courses. At the moment I am not a coder genius like some here but would like to learn.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 14 July 2017, 16:21:18
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
I expect it to become my primary work keyboard.
(http://imgur.com/VhlQK.gif) (http://imgur.com/VhlQK)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 14 July 2017, 17:18:45
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The audio is now posted here if you missed the broadcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 14 July 2017, 17:51:35
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Post by: bthezebra on Fri, 14 July 2017, 17:53:21
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 14 July 2017, 18:29:17
NPR Interview tonight!
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The segment will be posted here later tonight/tomorrow: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
What no ****? That's awesome
Post by: robotsokk on Fri, 14 July 2017, 23:49:36
NPR Interview tonight!
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The audio is now posted here if you missed the broadcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
Man, this just keeps getting even better. Huge props to you, Ellipse! Curious to find out whether this segment brings in a fresh batch of orders (or at least eyeballs on the site to learn more about your project :D).
Edit: Really enjoyed your description of typing on the keyboard, with the various parts interacting... like a musical instrument :) All this just makes me even more excited to eventually get mine under my fingers.
Post by: bthezebra on Sat, 15 July 2017, 00:50:57
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: zacheadams on Sat, 15 July 2017, 10:54:18
NPR Interview tonight!
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The audio is now posted here if you missed the broadcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
Awesome dude. I just put in an order. I was considering it for a long time, but seeing/hearing this interview reminded me to just click the buttons.
It was a pleasure meeting you at KeyCon and I can't wait to see the finished product sometime between now and certain apocalypse (and hopefully sooner).
:thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 15 July 2017, 15:13:57
Thanks and nice meeting you too!
Post by: duncancmt on Sun, 16 July 2017, 11:51:57
Since this is intended to be part of the GB, I hope I don't cause any offense by posting in this thread.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 July 2017, 12:52:34
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 16 July 2017, 14:18:46
What comes with the F62 when I chose caps with legends?
What else is available?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 July 2017, 14:22:24
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 16 July 2017, 16:04:59
reececonrad here is the proposed summary of the key options: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
Just to clarify, any orders of the F62 and F77 will come with the full set (that means everyone will end up with some extras right)?
What about those of us who ordered ISO boards? Will we still receive the base set + extra ISO keys for our specific language or will it just be the base kit with the select ANSI keys replaced by specific ISO? What about those who ordered boards in the split shift layout? Will there be the correct split shift caps in the order?
I assume if I want to buy stuff like the numrow with front print, it will cost extra right? Have you got any idea in terms of costs for those extra caps?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 July 2017, 16:10:18
The international sets will just have the full ~103 key international key set that was ordered, no ANSI-only keys. Yes the split shift caps will be correct.
Here is the store item for F1 printed front row keys: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/front-printed-keys-f1-etc/
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 16 July 2017, 16:45:17
Yes you get the full set for ANSI orders.
The international sets will just have the full ~103 key international key set that was ordered, no ANSI-only keys. Yes the split shift caps will be correct.
Here is the store item for F1 printed front row keys: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/front-printed-keys-f1-etc/
Perfect thank you for the clarification. When buying these front-printed F row keys, can we specify which language to get? (because each flavour of ISO has quite a different number row)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 July 2017, 16:59:33
Post by: bthezebra on Sun, 16 July 2017, 17:22:01
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 July 2017, 17:24:50
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 17 July 2017, 00:29:58
reececonrad here is the proposed summary of the key options: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
Extra blue keys are $3 each outside of the Industrial SSK Blue key set. You can add them using the store item "$1 increments."
Thanks, this makes more sense now :thumb: I'm going to add the blue extra keys. I would like the blue Esc and Enter keys. Should I just enter 6 for "Special keys/other" and specify what caps I want in the notes field?
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 17 July 2017, 00:42:40
reececonrad here is the proposed summary of the key options: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
I ordered an extra full set of blue XT keycaps, do I need to add anything to my order to make sure that I get blue HHKB caps as well?
Edit: Actually, I think that I already chose the option to get the HHKB keys with my extra blue set. Follow up question, are the Pebble/beige HHKB keys included when ordering a F62?
Post by: atlas3686 on Mon, 17 July 2017, 01:51:59
While we wait on the factory and some photos from me, I was wondering if we could discuss:
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
Work is open plan so it's a little too noisy, unfortunately. Currently use my type-s at work so the HHKB style F62 would have been a perfect replacement, maybe one day when I have my own closed off office. So it's gonna be used as my home board for gaming and a little coding and graphic work primarily.
@Ellipse Congrats on the NPR interview!
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 17 July 2017, 10:01:43
I'm trying to gather interest to add an extra color of keycap to this GB. They'd be black dyesub on slightly lighter black caps. Sound off in this thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90614.0) if you're interested.
Since this is intended to be part of the GB, I hope I don't cause any offense by posting in this thread.
I am interested in this, but I already ordered a blank black set. I'd want to swap my blank black set for this light black (dark gray?) printed set if I ordered it.
Post by: futurecrime on Mon, 17 July 2017, 14:51:16
While we wait on the factory and some photos from me, I was wondering if we could discuss:'
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
I'm buying this without having tried buckling spring but assuming I'm gonna love it. If it's as wonderful as it sounds, it'll be on my desk at home, used for writing prose, lyrics, emails, GH posts and any further attempts at learning to code. Probably swapped out at night for something silenced though, for my partner's sake. :)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 17 July 2017, 21:15:37
Just as a production recap for those catching up on the progress:
Production has finished on many of the components - the important components we are waiting on are the springs, key tooling, and inner assembly steel plate tooling. We are still looking at end of year delivery for everyone.
The factory has agreed that if this month's corrected key molds do not meet quality standards, I will be going with the other factory to make the key molds.
The factory is also finishing up the corrected top inner assembly tooling this month. Part of the tooling is a huge metal press curved to IBM's exact radius for the top inner assembly. This will help ensure we reach IBM's exact standards.
In the mean time as the keys are produced, assembly is expected to finish for everything except the keys. That way the keys will not bottleneck the project timeline. The factory expects to produce more of the spring attacher machines to speed things along.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 18 July 2017, 11:39:44
Thanks atlas! Atredl not sure what you mean - please PM me.
Just as a production recap for those catching up on the progress:
Production has finished on many of the components - the important components we are waiting on are the springs, key tooling, and inner assembly steel plate tooling. We are still looking at end of year delivery for everyone.
The factory has agreed that if this month's corrected key molds do not meet quality standards, I will be going with the other factory to make the key molds.
The factory is also finishing up the corrected top inner assembly tooling this month. Part of the tooling is a huge metal press curved to IBM's exact radius for the top inner assembly. This will help ensure we reach IBM's exact standards.
In the mean time as the keys are produced, assembly is expected to finish for everything except the keys. That way the keys will not bottleneck the project timeline. The factory expects to produce more of the spring attacher machines to speed things along.
So supposing you do have to go with the other factory for keycaps, are they basically ready to go on your say so? I.e. they know what they are making, have all the technical files, even produced prototypes maybe, etc, and are just waiting for your say-so?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 July 2017, 18:32:45
I'm hoping the factory fixes their output - the keys look great, they are just off 0.5mm or less in some of the specifications but that makes all the difference for reliable functionality.
Post by: TheInverseKey on Wed, 19 July 2017, 09:54:53
The reason being is that I am wondering if there is also secondary functions like "Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc"
Thanks
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 July 2017, 16:46:19
And yes you can configure secondary functions in the software if you need Print Screen/Scroll Lock/etc.
Post by: Atredl on Fri, 21 July 2017, 19:32:40
I sent you a PM a couple of days ago. Could you check it out?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 July 2017, 19:46:38
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 July 2017, 20:11:33
Still aiming for delivery in late Q4.
Keyboards ordered this month so far: 147
Keyboards:
F77 378
F62 203
Compact F77 89
Compact F62 53
Grand Total 723
Items:
Extra Flipper and Spring 2237
Extra Barrel 1460
4 Extra bumpers (free with full keyboard purchase) 202
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 170
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 109
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 101
FirstAidKit 101
Unprinted 1U key 89
HHKB 6 Key Set 37
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 56
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 54
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122) 49
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 46
Custom/Low Serial Number/Birthday 48
Extra F77 Case 36
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver" 26
Extra PCB 5
Case Colors:
F77
Color: Industrial Gray 187
Color: Off-White/Beige 131
Color: Black 52
Color: Silver Gray 3
Color: True Red 3
Color: Another color 2
F77 Total 378
F62
Color: Off-White/Beige 102
Color: Industrial Gray 56
Color: Black 35
Color: True Red 8
Color: Another color 1
Color: Silver Gray 1
F62 Total 203
Compact F77
Color: Black 58
Color: Regular Gray 30
Color: Industrial Gray 1
Compact F77 Total 89
Compact F62
Color: Black 34
Color: Standard Gray 18
Color: Another color 1
Compact F62 Total 53
Grand Total 723
Installed Key Sets:
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 494
Keys: Black unprinted keys 81
Keys: Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 61
Keys: International layout 48
Keys: Use your own keys 32
Keys: Blue printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 2
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout), Model M keys 1
Layouts:
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 353
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 177
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 125
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 50
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 5
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 2
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 2
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 2
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 1
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
Grand Total 723
Extra bumper sets:
Bumper type: 2 Large rubber bumpers (left of photo) with screw and nut plus 2 dome (middle of photo) 56
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 other pictured bumpers (please specify in the notes) 45
Bumper type: 4 square 29
Bumper type: 4 dome (middle of photo) 18
Bumper type: 4 Cork 17
Bumper type: 2 dome (middle of photo) + 2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 16
Bumper type: 2 dome + 2 square 11
Bumper type: 2 square (top right)+2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 9
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 cylindrical bumpers 1
Grand Total 202
F77 Right Side Block
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys 280
0-9 and cursor keys 137
Blank(these menu choices just affect those buying keys) 49
0-9 and cursor keys, blue unprinted keys for 5 and 0 1
Grand Total 467
Post by: dante on Sat, 22 July 2017, 20:15:22
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 July 2017, 20:31:41
Post by: stoic-lemon on Sun, 23 July 2017, 01:00:41
The molds will likely be scrapped unless I pay for the upkeep, and the tooling on the factory machines will be just reconfigured for their next customer once production ends.
If that isn't incentive to get one now, I don't know what is.
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 23 July 2017, 10:47:03
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 July 2017, 10:55:51
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 23 July 2017, 19:10:51
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 July 2017, 19:25:09
Post by: Jolly_Green_Giant on Sun, 23 July 2017, 20:44:49
Yes here are the proposed layouts: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
And yes you can configure secondary functions in the software if you need Print Screen/Scroll Lock/etc.
Just asking for some clarificaton on a few things:
1. if I order the F77 with keycaps, the full set of XT Quality Base Set comes with it? (of course, not including the F-Row, HHKB, Apple/Mac, and SSK kits)
2. Will the Mopar Blue Novelty set be added to the menu on https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/set-of-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/ ?
3. How do we order http://i.imgur.com/SC8TI3I.png if we're getting the F77 model? This set would basically cover any uses I would possibly have with the side keys!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 July 2017, 21:01:05
2 and 3. Each novelty key is $3 extra - please use the store item "$1 increments" for those.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 July 2017, 19:14:11
1. The factory is still working on the key molds for their last chance at making the keys to spec before I switch the key mold maker.
2. The very first inner assembly samples from the updated tooling should be completed next week.
3. I am having the springs made in the US and am talking with some manufacturers here. They have better spring equipment that can match IBM's tolerances for the springs, both in the dimensional and compression force aspects. They will be evaluating the original spring samples next week, producing a batch of samples to full specifications, and if they meet my quality standards they will produce all the springs.
Post by: Latin00032 on Thu, 27 July 2017, 20:57:00
Post by: LightningXI on Thu, 27 July 2017, 22:17:12
Ellipse, are you going to the nyc meetup next weekend?
Here are the details for you, Ellipse:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6p4ypv/nyc_mechanical_keyboard_meetup_august_5th_300pm/
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 28 July 2017, 17:09:51
Post by: zacheadams on Fri, 28 July 2017, 19:18:45
Thanks for letting me know! I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes!
Can't wait to see you again - I'll try to get some pics of your boards/parts/etc this time!
Post by: Latin00032 on Fri, 28 July 2017, 21:37:20
If you can't make it, I'll take your boards with me.Thanks for letting me know! I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes!
Can't wait to see you again - I'll try to get some pics of your boards/parts/etc this time!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 August 2017, 17:04:43
I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).
Post by: zacheadams on Tue, 01 August 2017, 18:14:06
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications! They are just completing the finishing of these parts.
I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).
!!!
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 02 August 2017, 00:44:47
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 02 August 2017, 07:42:51
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications! They are just completing the finishing of these parts.
I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).
Great news, getting hyped now :)
Post by: Pete on Wed, 02 August 2017, 23:44:20
(http://i.imgur.com/JcpAzBV.gif)
Post by: NathanA on Thu, 03 August 2017, 07:55:38
3. How do we order http://i.imgur.com/SC8TI3I.png if we're getting the F77 model? This set would basically cover any uses I would possibly have with the side keys!
Each novelty key is $3 extra - please use the store item "$1 increments" for those.Ellipse,
If I am not mistaken, the only keys that don't exist in the full keyset to make F77 layout #3 possible are a gray 1U '+' and a gray 1U 'Enter' (symbol). Right?
So if I ordered F77 right-side layout #2 but actually want #3 (which was never offered on the order form), all I have to do is order those 2 keys at $3/ea from you, and you will in fact print them and ship them? (I understand they would come separately in the box and I would have to swap them, arrange the other keys to my liking, and reprogram the controller.)
Thanks,
-- Nathan
Post by: laden3 on Thu, 03 August 2017, 09:42:09
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 03 August 2017, 17:44:13
He "put a tiny amount of Synco Superlube on the inside of the spring with a metal probe...just enough to dampen the vibration."
laden3 all the keyboards are still in production and delivery is expected around year end. I will send out tracking numbers when each order ships.
Nathan I think you are correct on all points. Please do specify the legends and colors on each of the extras you'd like.
Post by: NathanA on Fri, 04 August 2017, 08:18:17
Someone sent me a description and comparison video of an interesting grease-style Model F/M mod that seems to eliminate the plate/spring reverberation/tizz but keep much of the click sound. For those who don't like ping but like the click in their buckling spring keyboards.
Sounds similar to an official IBM product called "Soft Touch" (which they're undoubtedly trying to reproduce), where they covered the springs with a grease or some kind of silicon: http://clickykeyboards.com/product/1994-ibm-model-m-soft-touch-8184692-manufactured-for-ibm-by-lexmark-10-mar-94/ (http://clickykeyboards.com/product/1994-ibm-model-m-soft-touch-8184692-manufactured-for-ibm-by-lexmark-10-mar-94/)
...anyway: who would want that?? ;)
Nathan I think you are correct on all points. Please do specify the legends and colors on each of the extras you'd like.Awesome; thanks. Just submitted an order addendum. I didn't think you were interested in doing "custom" keys so this caught me by surprise. Perhaps you are only interested in doing relatively simple custom ones (a single legend, no top+bottom or side/front printing, no legends that don't exist) or ones that > 1 person might request? I kept my latest order simple (restricted to what was discussed here) but if you are willing to do more, let me know because I definitely have specific requests. ;)
-- Nathan
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 04 August 2017, 15:14:10
Post by: NathanA on Fri, 04 August 2017, 17:06:54
For now the only custom keys available are the ones from Zed's post (also here: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4 ). I don't want to delay anything with additional custom requests but I may be able to do custom keys during the final round once I have shipped all current orders.Perfectly reasonable; thanks. I have also been looking more closely into Hajime Nakazato's Etsy operation, and will likely reach out to him once the XT font is released.
-- Nathan
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 August 2017, 18:08:12
Post by: Latin00032 on Sat, 05 August 2017, 18:39:32
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today! Over 150 people were there. I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards. There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today! And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!Thanks for let me try your boards again!
Post by: bciamny on Sun, 06 August 2017, 00:30:59
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today! Over 150 people were there. I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards. There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today! And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!Thanks for let me try your boards again!
also met ellipse and had a chance to try out his boards today. they are definitely unique and model f hype seems justified. i was originally leaning to the slim cases but seeing (and feeling) the heft of the new aluminum chasis has me thinking to order the retro. ellipse mentioned that you can still get in on ordering if you're interested!
Post by: Latin00032 on Sun, 06 August 2017, 08:56:02
Try googling "light orange peel".
That is what I think the texture is for these cases.
Post by: bthezebra on Sun, 06 August 2017, 13:06:36
Before I forget, I remembered the thing for the case texture."Light orange peel" is how the old school cases would be described? That sounds interesting. How did the finished aluminum cases look? I wish I could have seen and felt them in person!
Try googling "light orange peel".
That is what I think the texture is for these cases.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 06 August 2017, 20:24:31
The finished aluminum cases are hard anodized with a smooth finish - they are not powdercoated.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 07 August 2017, 16:17:56
Post by: bthezebra on Mon, 07 August 2017, 16:30:52
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 07 August 2017, 16:47:50
Any interest in custom anodized blue as an ultra compact case premium color option? A few people could split the $500 tooling charge. A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.I wasn't getting an ultra compact but I would if it was blue. What shade of blue are we talking about?
Post by: NathanA on Mon, 07 August 2017, 20:19:49
A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.Please tell me that it is chyros (https://www.youtube.com/user/Chyrosran22).
-- Nathan
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 07 August 2017, 20:23:38
Post by: bthezebra on Mon, 07 August 2017, 21:13:19
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 08 August 2017, 12:50:15
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 09 August 2017, 18:20:33
Almost none of the US based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM's 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (this one does!). Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM's original tolerances!
The factory said that these springs' tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.
I will be ordering sample springs this week for evaluation and then if they are good I will order all the springs from this factory - everyone will get the US-made springs.
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 09 August 2017, 18:33:19
The US factory spring wire samples arrived today and they look great! Almost identical in appearance to the original spring samples.
Almost none of the US based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM's 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (this one does!). Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM's original tolerances!
The factory said that these springs' tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.
I will be ordering sample springs this week for evaluation and then if they are good I will order all the springs from this factory - everyone will get the US-made springs.
Wow, really cool that this factory seems to have got it right so fast. Hopefully, they feel as good as the originals too!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 14 August 2017, 19:52:31
The main theme continues – it was tougher than the factories and I expected to meet IBM’s exacting standards and tolerances from 35 years ago.
Instead of delivering functional keyboards and meeting the original factory timeline (I’ve been typing on the fully working prototypes without issue this year), I want to make sure these keyboards live up to the quality standards of the originals for the clickiest, most musical typing experience possible, even at the cost of time (rejecting parts) until these standards are met. Eventually they have been met for the other critical parts, many of which finished production and are waiting in boxes at the factory for assembly (tens of thousands of barrels/flippers, the die cast zinc cases, capacitive PCBs, controllers, custom IDE/floppy style ribbon cables have finished production). Check out a few blog posts back for a detailed production update by part.
Dimensions on the keys that are off by just 0.5mm do not function well (I received the latest key samples this week). Spring free length variances are too large for a more consistent feel.
I cancelled the spring contract last month due to poor part tolerances and I expect to cancel the key mold contract as well and move it to another manufacturer this month. While this is going on I will have assembly start on the rest of the components to avoid any bottlenecking so we keep on schedule.
The springs are going to be made in the US. Almost none of the US-based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM’s 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (at least one does – the one I am working with). Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM’s original tolerances!
The factory said that these springs’ tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 14 August 2017, 20:20:09
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 14 August 2017, 20:31:52
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 14 August 2017, 23:00:44
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 14 August 2017, 23:18:09
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 15 August 2017, 03:25:00
Giorgio we are ordering brand new one piece molds matching the quality of IBM's XT keys. Unicomp does not offer this. We are also custom making molds for special keys like the 1.75U non-stepped shift/caps lock keys.
Ah! I thought that at least for the keys they were on par with old IBM, since they use their equipment!
You're making a great effort with this project, and I'm happy that many people have followed you. I'm actually searching for an old model m, to understand how much I like buckling springs. Probably I'll join in the next rounds!
Post by: Ramiel on Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:30:18
Post by: Kavik on Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:33:56
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 15 August 2017, 21:35:40
Post by: Ramiel on Wed, 16 August 2017, 08:47:05
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 16 August 2017, 08:59:31
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
"They" is one man, Ellipse. This is his project and he says what happens. We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining. When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months. I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 16 August 2017, 10:24:24
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
"They" is one man, Ellipse. This is his project and he says what happens. We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining. When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months. I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.
Ya sorry but you're being ridiculous. Totally reasonable to request that your order be shipped out early. What's the difference between Ellipse's perfect new flippers, made exactly to IBM specs, vs. those from an actual Model F ,you know ,made by IBM, supposing someone wants to tear one apart?
Or, you know, someone who has keycaps and doesn't want to wait around another 5 or 6 months for the new ones to be produced?
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.
But, jesus christ dude, it's not an insult to Ellipse to make the request. If anything it's a compliment, coming from people who want their new model F sometime before they are on their deathbed.
What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
he just said "No." There are pros and cons to working on these projects with a single person at the head, and one of the major pros is that we can communicate directly with that person. Ellipse can do what he wants, as long as he either delivers a product or our money, but it would nonetheless also be nice if he provided a reason behind this denial. I don't think he's obligated to, but it would be nice.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 16 August 2017, 11:12:39
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:09:29
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.That's a very good reason not to do it. It would be a logistical nightmare to start shipping incomplete orders. Allowing one person to do that means you have to allow all people to have that option and now he's no longer going to be shipping keyboards out all at once but instead he's going to be shipping them out for the rest of the year.
Quote
What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
he just said "No."
Sorry I will not be shipping out incomplete or untested keyboards. We are still waiting on production to finish on some of the parts.Untested seems like another pretty good reason why he wouldn't to ship out keyboards in parts. He's signing off that this keyboard is going to work and if for some reason it doesn't then he has to deal with shipping back and forth to get it fixed.
He's also not assembling every board, they're being built at the factory. I very highly doubt they want to start grabbing parts from their bins and shipping parts out every time someone wants their parts.
Again, Logistical nightmare.
Post by: tron on Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:12:03
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
"They" is one man, Ellipse. This is his project and he says what happens. We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining. When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months. I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.
Ya sorry but you're being ridiculous. Totally reasonable to request that your order be shipped out early. What's the difference between Ellipse's perfect new flippers, made exactly to IBM specs, vs. those from an actual Model F ,you know ,made by IBM, supposing someone wants to tear one apart?
Or, you know, someone who has keycaps and doesn't want to wait around another 5 or 6 months for the new ones to be produced?
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.
But, jesus christ dude, it's not an insult to Ellipse to make the request. If anything it's a compliment, coming from people who want their new model F sometime before they are on their deathbed.
What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
he just said "No." There are pros and cons to working on these projects with a single person at the head, and one of the major pros is that we can communicate directly with that person. Ellipse can do what he wants, as long as he either delivers a product or our money, but it would nonetheless also be nice if he provided a reason behind this denial. I don't think he's obligated to, but it would be nice.
Due to the weight, I'm 99% sure it would be more expensive to ship single orders or small batches from China to the US. Also, as you point out, the extra administrative time communicating with the factory and the customer. I'm sure he wants these orders to ship out with the efficiency of an assembly line due to the projects complexity.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 16 August 2017, 12:22:50
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.That's a very good reason not to do it. It would be a logistical nightmare to start shipping incomplete orders. Allowing one person to do that means you have to allow all people to have that option and now he's no longer going to be shipping keyboards out all at once but instead he's going to be shipping them out for the rest of the year.
Ya I agree.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 16 August 2017, 19:28:41
Sorry for not being clear before. It will take another month or so to produce the remaining parts (inner foam, inner steel plates, springs, compact cases) and the new key molds, and then assembly will start while the keys are in production and being dye sublimated. It is not the case that one component is bottlenecking the timeline.
Also complexity, quality control/inspection, and cost make it difficult to ship certain orders separately from China.
Post by: consolation on Thu, 17 August 2017, 01:26:16
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
I believe model M and F springs are different anyway.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 18 August 2017, 21:44:44
http://ibmblr.tumblr.com/post/164338069961/love-at-first-type-many-love-stories-start-with
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 18 August 2017, 22:35:09
The project was featured on IBM's official Tumblr page today!
http://ibmblr.tumblr.com/post/164338069961/love-at-first-type-many-love-stories-start-with
Fantastic endorsement. To be really happy do we need also Lexmark's statement?? :))
Is Tumblr as old as the model F?
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sun, 20 August 2017, 08:53:19
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 August 2017, 09:00:10
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sun, 20 August 2017, 09:18:44
InvidiousIgnoramus you can still order one on www.ModelFKeyboards.com!Can you explain exactly how your "pay as you go" payment works? I'm not sure i can drop it all in one go, probably half now and the other half towards the end of the week.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 August 2017, 17:48:19
If you must pay half at a time, the way to do a downpayment is to place an order for all the items you want and just choose the "other payment" option. Then for your down payment, place a separate order for each deposit/payment using the store item "$1 increments." https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/
Post by: consolation on Sun, 20 August 2017, 21:09:28
...
Just out of curiosity, did you contact IBM and ask them for the technical package (all the measurements and specs) for the F-type? They seem quite taken with the idea, might let you even use an IBM logo on the boards; an official IBM Ellipse F square plate, would be wicked.
Post by: Giorgio on Sun, 20 August 2017, 21:48:00
...
Just out of curiosity, did you contact IBM and ask them for the technical package (all the measurements and specs) for the F-type? They seem quite taken with the idea, might let you even use an IBM logo on the boards; an official IBM Ellipse F square plate, would be wicked.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 August 2017, 22:28:30
I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.
Post by: axtran on Mon, 21 August 2017, 05:49:42
Ah! I thought that at least for the keys they were on par with old IBM, since they use their equipment!
You're making a great effort with this project, and I'm happy that many people have followed you. I'm actually searching for an old model m, to understand how much I like buckling springs. Probably I'll join in the next rounds!
Hopefully, to save you some time and money if you ever think about it, Unicomp quality is nowhere near what a classic Model M is like. That's why I appreciate the effort going into this GB from Ellipse. I had so many mismanufactured stems that were just assembled anyway with my old Unicomp boards.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 21 August 2017, 08:02:34
Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.
Post by: zacheadams on Mon, 21 August 2017, 16:11:14
I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.
Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/why-not-a-zinc-option-for-the-compact-versions/
So implicitly from that response, yes, the F62 and F77 "classic style cases" are both zinc, the F62 Ultracompact is aluminum.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 21 August 2017, 16:18:39
And that's all I needed to know. Sweet.I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.
Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/why-not-a-zinc-option-for-the-compact-versions/
So implicitly from that response, yes, the F62 and F77 "classic style cases" are both zinc, the F62 Ultracompact is aluminum.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Post by: consolation on Mon, 21 August 2017, 23:18:08
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct. Now we are in production. Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production. I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).
I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.
Sigh, that's the problem with having people sign up at the end of a long term project - we all want to reinvent the wheel... still think you should consider CoolerMaster Style TK option for the numpad, but I'll shush about that. I wasn't suggesting badging the keyboards as IBM, I literally meant a (model M style) square badge as feelie/curio. Congrats on the awesome work so far, truly impressive.
Post by: duynguyenle on Tue, 22 August 2017, 05:58:01
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct. Now we are in production. Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production. I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).
I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.
Sigh, that's the problem with having people sign up at the end of a long term project - we all want to reinvent the wheel... still think you should consider CoolerMaster Style TK option for the numpad, but I'll shush about that. I wasn't suggesting badging the keyboards as IBM, I literally meant a (model M style) square badge as feelie/curio. Congrats on the awesome work so far, truly impressive.
That would mean adding an extra column of keys, which is completely outside of scope for this project (complete reproduction of the original F77 design)
Post by: consolation on Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:04:06
That would mean adding an extra column of keys, which is completely outside of scope for this project (complete reproduction of the original F77 design)
We were talking (@ GH?) about printing legends on the numpad, with respect to the nav cluster. CM style replicates a typical TKL nav layout in on the numpad cluster; the classic style is, well... the classic weird numpad nav layout with duplicated arrows etc. AFAIK, we are going with the classic layout for the people who chose numbers+arrow keys. Since the keyboard is programmable, there are no changes to the design; except for legends printed on the keys. Hopefully, the popularity of these keyboards will raise enough interest to make a "CM style" keycaps groupbuy viable after they are shipped. /fingerscrossed Understandably, Ellipse doesn't want to make even more different keycaps at this stage.
[attachimg=1]
IMHO, the CM layout is much more sensible on a TK board, especially one with only 3 column on the numpad. You could even add arithmetic ops (+,-,/,*) as secondary labels on the arrow keys, with the meta key set to toggle mode, you will have a fully functional numpad AND a fully functional nav cluster.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:10:29
Post by: consolation on Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:19:22
I really like that CM right block a lot. Makes sense
It puts the nav keys where you have them usually on a full/TKL keyboard, and gives you a numpad. I'll program mine that way and just get used to mismatched labels in the meantime.
PS. The reason I stuck the "meta" label on 0 is to use it as FN toggle lock, with split (HHKB) right shift. Use the Fn as momentary layer select, i.e. you hold it down with the key you want to use; but when pressed with the numpad 0 "meta" it puts the fn key into toggle mode and changes the layer until toggled back. It's a good location as the buttons will be next to each other in the CM layout.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:40:51
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:43:00
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
I would definitely buy them if they were available :thumb:
Post by: consolation on Tue, 22 August 2017, 18:50:05
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, shipping separately sounds like the best idea. So we can add them to our order once Zed finalises the design? - I'm so stoked.
P.S. I'd add the numeric ops to the arrow keys as secondary labels, since it's an optional add on, people who don't want them can just use the default arrows instead. This is a super rough mock up ->
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 August 2017, 20:47:50
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 23 August 2017, 21:06:53
Great news - the first top and bottom inner assembly parts from the new tooling arrived today and they meet my specifications! The radii are perfect to my drawings for all samples. I expect to do some further evaluation this week and then approve them for production to start!That's great news!
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 August 2017, 17:09:43
They should arrive next week. I will be examining the specs and testing the springs thoroughly and then they can be approved for production!
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 26 August 2017, 22:09:01
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 September 2017, 14:17:10
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 September 2017, 20:04:56
With brand new non-degraded foam (1.6 to 2mm) the cases do require some tools and force to close the inner assembly. I use clamps, pliers, and a hammer but the factory may devise some kind of tool for more efficient closing.
A tightly compressed inner assembly allows for a strong click in my experience. Some Model F's with weaker clicks have too much space between the plates.
Using these clamps I also refurbished my F122 this past week with the first F122 foam from the factory and now all is well again.
Post by: DZed on Wed, 06 September 2017, 11:07:24
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.
Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 September 2017, 21:29:37
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.
Post by: consolation on Tue, 12 September 2017, 21:42:17
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.
Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?
I think tab would be more useful, as the return is right next to they cluster anyway.
Post by: kmba on Tue, 12 September 2017, 22:40:04
Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.
Jesus :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Is there any affect to my place in line if I were to change my order from an F77 to an F62?
Post by: Lagomorph on Wed, 13 September 2017, 06:52:44
Production update:
Thanks for the update! Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but I wonder whether there'd be a market for custom springs for buckling spring keyboards?
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 13 September 2017, 07:10:26
Funny, I was just wondering that myself yesterday. The only problem I could see with that is it possibly effecting the buckling of the spring. I mean, the spring is always slightly buckled.Production update:
Thanks for the update! Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but I wonder whether there'd be a market for custom springs for buckling spring keyboards?
Post by: DZed on Wed, 13 September 2017, 11:35:20
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.
Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?
I think tab would be more useful, as the return is right next to they cluster anyway.
No problem at all. My right pinkie expects to find a return key in that area but it is easy enough to work up both versions. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know.
Post by: consolation on Mon, 18 September 2017, 04:11:07
No problem at all. My right pinkie expects to find a return key in that area but it is easy enough to work up both versions. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
PS. How much more complicated / expensive would having the nav symbols in blue be?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 18 September 2017, 19:52:35
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.
Post by: robotsokk on Mon, 18 September 2017, 21:55:11
Post by: DZed on Tue, 19 September 2017, 12:03:49
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 September 2017, 17:28:50
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 19 September 2017, 18:16:26
Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 19 September 2017, 18:36:09
I think he's referring to the anodized blue aluminum case that was mentioned a while back.Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
Here is the page it was mentioned (idk how to link a specific post in the thread):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.1100
Post by: robotsokk on Tue, 19 September 2017, 19:02:54
I think he's referring to the anodized blue aluminum case that was mentioned a while back.Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
Here is the page it was mentioned (idk how to link a specific post in the thread):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.1100
I believe discussion of it starts here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.msg2471555#msg2471555
(Also, to link a post you can right-click -> copy link on the link heading, usually the thread title [in red/bold for me] above a given post.)
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 20 September 2017, 05:31:21
(Also, to link a post you can right-click -> copy link on the link heading, usually the thread title [in red/bold for me] above a given post.)Thank you, friend.
Post by: consolation on Sat, 23 September 2017, 10:53:40
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.
I programmed one of my keyboards with both layouts, after couple days usage, my rather subjective findings are:. Return works best as the bottom right button, it makes it really easy to find with your pinky without looking. Personally I find having + and - on the up and down arrows more intuitive, but that could just be me. I'd recommend just having "Nav" for the label, the alternative is obvious from the design, but, do we really need/want the function key there? It's handy for people using traditional ANSI layouts, in which case "Meta", is probably best as it will be their main function key. For split shift/back space users, it works best as a "Lock" key so you can lock the function layer, but it's a "nice to have" not an essential. I found the layout worked amazingly well with split shift, leaving it in numpad mode and using fn+pad for navigation functions. Overall, it's a really good system that gives you nav cluster and numpad functionality in a really intuitive manner.
Post by: DZed on Sun, 24 September 2017, 14:23:32
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.
I programmed one of my keyboards with both layouts, after couple days usage, my rather subjective findings are:. Return works best as the bottom right button, it makes it really easy to find with your pinky without looking. Personally I find having + and - on the up and down arrows more intuitive, but that could just be me. I'd recommend just having "Nav" for the label, the alternative is obvious from the design, but, do we really need/want the function key there? It's handy for people using traditional ANSI layouts, in which case "Meta", is probably best as it will be their main function key. For split shift/back space users, it works best as a "Lock" key so you can lock the function layer, but it's a "nice to have" not an essential. I found the layout worked amazingly well with split shift, leaving it in numpad mode and using fn+pad for navigation functions. Overall, it's a really good system that gives you nav cluster and numpad functionality in a really intuitive manner.
Great feedback! It's a bit ironic that after spending a few days really paying attention to my num pad usage, I came to the conclusion that, for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off. So, I was thinking that your original layout using the return key from the primary section of the board would be the best compromise. I hear you on the natural position of enter in the bottom right though and since nobody else has offered any input for this layout, we will go with your choice.
I think there might be a bit of confusion about the fn layer/key layout though. I was not intending to put an actual fn key on the pad, just showing the fn layer options since this is a pretty unconventional layout and if Ellipse is kind enough to do the printing of these keys, we might as well go all out with any sub legends. I was thinking that the "Nav" or "Lock" fn would be a toggle layer and you could also have the nav controls on a momentary layer as you mentioned. Are we on the same page here?
Post by: duncancmt on Tue, 26 September 2017, 10:54:43
for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off
Chiming in to agree with DZed. Because of the numpad's close proximity to the primary "enter", I'd vastly prefer a dedicated numpad "." over a numpad "enter".
I'm also bit confused about the nav/lock/fn key, though. Is the idea to have a key that functions like numlock does on a 101-104 key keyboard? I'm having trouble imagining a toggle or momentary key that doesn't cause problems by sharing a physical key with a glyph key.
Post by: DZed on Tue, 26 September 2017, 14:54:52
for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off
Chiming in to agree with DZed. Because of the numpad's close proximity to the primary "enter", I'd vastly prefer a dedicated numpad "." over a numpad "enter".
I'm also bit confused about the nav/lock/fn key, though. Is the idea to have a key that functions like numlock does on a 101-104 key keyboard? I'm having trouble imagining a toggle or momentary key that doesn't cause problems by sharing a physical key with a glyph key.
The num/nav layers would toggle when you press "Fn" + "0" so there wouldn't be any conflict with sharing a key. You could also do what Consolation mentioned above and have all the nav controls as a momentary layer on the num pad layer as well. This would allow "Fn" + "+" to be the nav up arrow, for example, without having to toggle out of num pad mode. Let me know if some visual aids might help.
Can someone verify that the programming environment for these boards definitely supports toggle layers and such? I tried to download the software a while ago but couldn't get it to work without a keyboard to hook up.
Post by: consolation on Tue, 26 September 2017, 22:17:46
Great feedback! It's a bit ironic that after spending a few days really paying attention to my num pad usage, I came to the conclusion that, for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off. So, I was thinking that your original layout using the return key from the primary section of the board would be the best compromise. I hear you on the natural position of enter in the bottom right though and since nobody else has offered any input for this layout, we will go with your choice.
I think there might be a bit of confusion about the fn layer/key layout though. I was not intending to put an actual fn key on the pad, just showing the fn layer options since this is a pretty unconventional layout and if Ellipse is kind enough to do the printing of these keys, we might as well go all out with any sub legends. I was thinking that the "Nav" or "Lock" fn would be a toggle layer and you could also have the nav controls on a momentary layer as you mentioned. Are we on the same page here?
Yes we are, same page.
Regarding the decimal point, I think we just put "↵" & "." on the key and let everyone program their preference as main / function layer.
I have been using an ergodox exclusively the last week and, ironically, trained my right thumb to look for the return key... :rolleyes: now I'd probably find having the decimal there easier. What the experience brought home to me is; as long as your layout is sensible, it's not a big thing to quickly adjust your muscle memory. (BTW & OT - Who thought the default ergodox layout was a good idea? Mind you; it forced me to not be lazy and work out my own one, so maybe it's a stroke of genius.)
Can you point me to the software you were looking at? I'm happy to make a few versions of firmware that can be downloaded to go with the keycaps, or raw data to cut'n'paste into the json file; assuming that's the format, of course.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 September 2017, 22:52:47
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 26 September 2017, 23:00:20
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Fascinating. And that's not sarcasm. This board is epic.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 26 September 2017, 23:07:59
The attention to detail is fantastic, I'm really glad ellipse is making sure everything is right for this.The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Fascinating. And that's not sarcasm. This board is epic.
Post by: consolation on Wed, 27 September 2017, 07:39:24
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
I'm genuinely curious; can you share any more info? I can't tell if it's too much binge watching of AvE, or flash backs to the material's science in college; but I have of late been fascinated by grain, pearlite ratios, crystal structures and other minutiae of metal working.
Post by: DZed on Wed, 27 September 2017, 09:32:08
Can you point me to the software you were looking at? I'm happy to make a few versions of firmware that can be downloaded to go with the keycaps, or raw data to cut'n'paste into the json file; assuming that's the format, of course.
Here is the software I found from the questions page on the modelfkeyboards site.
http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ (http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/)
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Post by: consolation on Wed, 27 September 2017, 19:20:24
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
Post by: DZed on Thu, 28 September 2017, 13:50:39
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.
Post by: Jampu on Thu, 28 September 2017, 21:37:05
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.
The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes. That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns. Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB. Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files. I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...
Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.
Post by: sixdeuces on Fri, 29 September 2017, 09:04:27
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
Post by: sundin on Fri, 29 September 2017, 10:29:46
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"I had this reflexion 2 years ago.
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
Post by: ixtopolis on Fri, 29 September 2017, 10:32:09
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 29 September 2017, 10:44:36
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order. So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point. If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.
Post by: dante on Fri, 29 September 2017, 10:47:55
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
There is supposed to be a 2nd round but based on progress that may not happen until 2019.
I'm waiting for reviews from the early bird round before purchasing. And even then it's not going to be for personal use but to flip down the road.
Post by: sixdeuces on Fri, 29 September 2017, 13:01:12
I had this reflexion 2 years ago.
I first became aware of it back in maybe January, so I've been circling for a while. I considered holding off for a later round, but there's never a guarantee that will actually happen.
I have an F XT bigfoot, so I was trying to convince myself I didn't need this, but the idea of a modernized layout with a industrial gray case and all the other goodies won out. I'll get to enjoy that typing experience without jumping through the hoops that come with a 3-decade old machine. It can legitimately be a daily driver. Plus, it's obvious how much work has gone into perfecting this, and I'm very pleased to be able to support the project.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Fri, 29 September 2017, 13:15:43
It's funny you mention that, I joined this about a month ago and just three days ago I bought an XT on eBay. Just got it today.I had this reflexion 2 years ago.
I first became aware of it back in maybe January, so I've been circling for a while. I considered holding off for a later round, but there's never a guarantee that will actually happen.
I have an F XT bigfoot, so I was trying to convince myself I didn't need this, but the idea of a modernized layout with a industrial gray case and all the other goodies won out. I'll get to enjoy that typing experience without jumping through the hoops that come with a 3-decade old machine. It can legitimately be a daily driver. Plus, it's obvious how much work has gone into perfecting this, and I'm very pleased to be able to support the project.
Post by: sixdeuces on Fri, 29 September 2017, 13:53:05
[It's funny you mention that, I joined this about a month ago and just three days ago I bought an XT on eBay. Just got it today.
Congrats! I was super lucky in finding mine. (Purchased in a lot, kept it and a mint Model M square logo and still turned a profit!) I love the expletive-heavy reaction people have when they pick it up for the first time. Plus that B E Z E L.
Post by: cicada on Fri, 29 September 2017, 14:27:16
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order. So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point. If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.
I'm confused, are you saying that you can order without paying? Because I don't think so. If you join now as an early bird you'll be the 401st person to get your board shipped.
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 29 September 2017, 15:43:45
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order. So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point. If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.
I'm confused, are you saying that you can order without paying? Because I don't think so. If you join now as an early bird you'll be the 401st person to get your board shipped.
I should probably just let elipse explain, but it is my understanding that if you pay for early bird (which costs extra) you get added to the end of the list of early bird orders. You get to jump ahead of those who ordered w/o paying extra for early bird.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 September 2017, 16:08:10
Everyone who orders is part of the early bird round for now. The low serial option does put you at #50 or so instead of #850 or so and it helps cover production overrun costs.
Unfortunately the factory will be resuming production after their weeklong national holiday coming up. They did not make much progress this month which was disappointing.
Post by: DZed on Fri, 29 September 2017, 19:28:55
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.
The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes. That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns. Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB. Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files. I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...
Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.
Thanks for the info. I was really more interested in the features available than trying to create a layout file. I take it toggle layers are available?
Post by: Jampu on Sat, 30 September 2017, 00:18:57
The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes. That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns. Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB. Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files. I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...
Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.
Thanks for the info. I was really more interested in the features available than trying to create a layout file. I take it toggle layers are available?
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
Post by: DZed on Sat, 30 September 2017, 22:55:58
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
Thanks again!
Post by: consolation on Sun, 01 October 2017, 18:05:16
...
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
Can the function keys be set as toggle, momentary and switch types?
Post by: Jampu on Sun, 01 October 2017, 21:00:35
...
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
Can the function keys be set as toggle, momentary and switch types?
The function keycodes are for momentary layer swapping or (I think) macros. (Not sure if they show up in the macro options list...) The layer swap codes will set the keyboard to the corresponding layer - you can configure the same key to return on that alternate layer. In other words, if one wanted to use Pause/Brk to toggle between the base layer and layer 1 they would need to set the Pause/Brk position to "Switch 1" on the base layer and "Switch Base" on layer 1. (The keycode names might be off, can't remember off the top of my head - they're at the bottom of the drop-down list for each key position.)
That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.
Thanks again!
No problem! I might try out one or two of the proposed layouts this week on the F107 and see how they feel.
Post by: consolation on Mon, 02 October 2017, 15:56:11
That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.
I meant as in: "switch" to the designated layer and stay there until another layer is selected, as opposed to switch back after next key press (toggle) or switch to layer while holding down the function key (momentary.) Sorry for the confusion, there is so many different names used for these modes; latch, modifier mode, select, etc, etc... There really is no agreed set of terms it seems.
Post by: Jampu on Mon, 02 October 2017, 19:39:51
That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.
I meant as in: "switch" to the designated layer and stay there until another layer is selected, as opposed to switch back after next key press (toggle) or switch to layer while holding down the function key (momentary.) Sorry for the confusion, there is so many different names used for these modes; latch, modifier mode, select, etc, etc... There really is no agreed set of terms it seems.
Ah, I see - per your terminology, the Fn keys are momentary and the layer selects are switch-type. There does not seem to be any toggle-type functionality.
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
Post by: DZed on Mon, 02 October 2017, 20:42:44
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).
The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.
Post by: Jampu on Tue, 03 October 2017, 19:32:10
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).
The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.
One thing worth noting is the ridge between the alphanumeric block and the navpad - the top of the keycaps on the Shift/Fn row are nearly flush with that ridge/bar. On a normal TKL it would be easy to press Fn with your thumb, but on these keyboards (at least on the classic-type case) a finger will be required instead. This makes the toggle a bit cumbersome if one intends to swap back and forth regularly.
Post by: DZed on Tue, 03 October 2017, 21:20:32
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).
The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.
One thing worth noting is the ridge between the alphanumeric block and the navpad - the top of the keycaps on the Shift/Fn row are nearly flush with that ridge/bar. On a normal TKL it would be easy to press Fn with your thumb, but on these keyboards (at least on the classic-type case) a finger will be required instead. This makes the toggle a bit cumbersome if one intends to swap back and forth regularly.
Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg)
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 04 October 2017, 00:39:26
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 04 October 2017, 06:02:01
How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?
Here are the last updates:
Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.
After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals. These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F. I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end.
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Post by: consolation on Wed, 04 October 2017, 06:03:23
Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.
classic chasis (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg)
Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.
PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.
PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.
[attachimg=1]
Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL. If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.
As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 04 October 2017, 11:13:16
How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?
Here are the last updates:Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals. These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F. I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end.
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Old news. Plus I think this whole spring and PCB thing is....misguided, to say the least.
I mean, to order a whole new set of PCBs from the manufacturer, AFTER a full set of PCBs have already been ordered?
No comment on that one.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 04 October 2017, 11:22:55
I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?
Here are the last updates:Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals. These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F. I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end.
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Old news. Plus I think this whole spring and PCB thing is....misguided, to say the least.
I mean, to order a whole new set of PCBs from the manufacturer, AFTER a full set of PCBs have already been ordered?
No comment on that one.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 04 October 2017, 11:37:37
I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 04 October 2017, 13:54:08
I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.
Quote
I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 04 October 2017, 13:58:07
Bless Ellipse and his Noble questI mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.QuoteI do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 04 October 2017, 14:33:28
This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?
I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.
Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.
By the way, "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 04 October 2017, 14:37:54
Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.QuoteI do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?
I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.
Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.
By the way, "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 04 October 2017, 14:40:34
Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.
I don't know how you're under the impression I was responding to you but I edited my post to make things clearer. I'm being as polite as possible.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 04 October 2017, 14:41:30
Sorry, Tapatalk made it sound like you responded to me.Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.
I don't know how you're under the impression I was responding to you but I edited my post to make things clearer. I'm being as polite as possible.
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 04 October 2017, 14:52:45
Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?I was not condescending to you at any point. Some of your comments simply suggested you might be misinformed and you don’t have to be an idiot to be misinformed. So don’t put imply intentions that were never there.
Quote
I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.But closer to the original is part of the goal. Yes the aim is to use higher quality parts but he’s aiming to make a product that feels and sounds identical to the originals.
Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.
By the way, "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Wed, 04 October 2017, 15:01:34
Post by: ygor on Wed, 04 October 2017, 16:09:11
Post by: DZed on Wed, 04 October 2017, 19:18:08
Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.
classic chasis (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg)
Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.
PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.
PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.
(Attachment Link)
Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL. If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.
As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.
It seems a shame to give up some already precious real estate. What about something like Fn + Shift to toggle the Num/Nav layers?
Post by: esquilax on Thu, 05 October 2017, 10:25:53
People can call what he does "misguided," but unless you want to be ignored or told off, you probably are going to have to back that up with something that establishes your credibility. Otherwise, it's an "opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one" type of situation.
Post by: cicada on Thu, 05 October 2017, 10:53:18
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 05 October 2017, 11:16:37
In the end, if we end up with half assed keyboards after all this time and money, it's going to be a major disappointment. I don't really see anybody else in this thread that has the expertise to pull this off correctly, so my trust is in him. I'd hate to see him kowtow to a few impatient people and ruin what could be a keyboard I use for the rest of my life.
People can call what he does "misguided," but unless you want to be ignored or told off, you probably are going to have to back that up with something that establishes your credibility. Otherwise, it's an "opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one" type of situation.
The difference between "98%" great and "99%" great doesn't take a product from great to spectacular, but how hard is it to effect that 1% change? I've so far seen no quantitative demonstration that any of the extra steps being taken here will perceptibly influence the end user experience.
I personally have and respect those with a great attention to detail. And even I have the problem that I compulsively perfect things even though I know sometimes they will ultimately have no bearing on the end result. But I operate on an individual scale, so no one cares. This case is a little different.
I want to qualify all of this, again, that I'm not suggesting a bad product be released.
Post by: esquilax on Thu, 05 October 2017, 12:26:59
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 05 October 2017, 14:35:01
And likewise, you haven't demonstrated it won't, or that it's limited to 1%. That's a hunch of yours, right?
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
Post by: atlas3686 on Fri, 06 October 2017, 03:59:32
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
Not sure how it could be demonstrated that these changes are worth the time and energy... since you have no experience with the originals and no experience or interaction with the parts being discussed. It's for that reason exactly that someone like Ellipse is one of the few people capable of doing this. By putting your money into the project you are putting your trust in the brief he laid out for this project and in his opinion and experience when it comes to executing it. I have seen no evidence that he has strayed even slightly from his stated brief if anything he has put huge amounts of time and extra effort (and even extra money) to ensure it's met exactly. So this is basically just whingeing that things are taking longer then you would like. I do get that and obviously we are all keen for it to be done and in our hands but most of us want what Ellipse set out to do and that's why we joined the project.
Lastly and this is just my opinion but I don't think that Ellipse deserves any of us second-guessing these decisions, especially considering our relative lack of knowledge and all the effort he has put in.
Post by: koduh on Fri, 06 October 2017, 12:15:38
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 06 October 2017, 12:52:56
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
Not sure how it could be demonstrated that these changes are worth the time and energy... since you have no experience with the originals and no experience or interaction with the parts being discussed. It's for that reason exactly that someone like Ellipse is one of the few people capable of doing this. By putting your money into the project you are putting your trust in the brief he laid out for this project and in his opinion and experience when it comes to executing it. I have seen no evidence that he has strayed even slightly from his stated brief if anything he has put huge amounts of time and extra effort (and even extra money) to ensure it's met exactly. So this is basically just whingeing that things are taking longer then you would like. I do get that and obviously we are all keen for it to be done and in our hands but most of us want what Ellipse set out to do and that's why we joined the project.
Lastly and this is just my opinion but I don't think that Ellipse deserves any of us second-guessing these decisions, especially considering our relative lack of knowledge and all the effort he has put in.
Though you are incidentally correct, you don't actually know that I have no experience with this stuff. You've assumed that about me.
The long and short of it is you are making a lot of generalizations and I disagree with most of what you said. I certainly didn't buy into an individual when I put money into this project, I purchased a product, plain and simple. I absolutely didn't put money in out of trust or faith or something either, it was, and still is, a total risky buy to me, something where I'm like "Well, I'd rather lose 400$ but with the possibility of getting something I really want versus leaving that money sitting in my bank account, so fk it."
And everyone deserves a good second guessing. Everyone.
Post by: Atredl on Fri, 06 October 2017, 14:04:44
Though you are incidentally correct, you don't actually know that I have no experience with this stuff. You've assumed that about me.Since you didn’t buy into this out of trust in Ellipse, why did you buy into the early bird instead of the regular round? It seems like you have criticisms about Ellipse’s method but there are plenty of pages in this thread that are evidence that this is the way he does things. If you had bought into the regular round there would already be a product and you wouldn’t have to worry about sample timelines and delays because prototypes don’t meet his standards.
The long and short of it is you are making a lot of generalizations and I disagree with most of what you said. I certainly didn't buy into an individual when I put money into this project, I purchased a product, plain and simple.
Quote
I absolutely didn't put money in out of trust or faith or something either, it was, and still is, a total risky buy to me, something where I'm like "Well, I'd rather lose 400$ but with the possibility of getting something I really want versus leaving that money sitting in my bank account, so fk it."If you really did say “f**k it” then why do you have so many criticisms about Ellipse’s method? By this statement it sounds like you treated this like a coin flip but up above you say that you “purchased a product, plain and simple”. Purchasing a product is not a coin flip at all. When you purchase a product, you fully expect to receive it in a timely manner. This round is a GB for an item that isn’t fully made yet. I’m not trying to be patronizing here but your contradicting statements really suggest that you didn’t fully understand what you were buying into.
And everyone deserves a good second guessing. Everyone.
Post by: Jampu on Fri, 06 October 2017, 19:50:31
Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.
PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.
PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.
(Attachment Link)
Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL. If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.
As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.
It seems a shame to give up some already precious real estate. What about something like Fn + Shift to toggle the Num/Nav layers?
After playing around with layouts a bit, it seems this type of combo numpad-nav-arrow layout just isn't for me; I'll probably end up filling the nav area with F-keys for use in IDEs at work to eliminate excessive layer swapping. Here is the admittedly specialized arrangement I've been using for the past six months on the F107, for what it's worth:
[attachimg=1]
Over the past week of experimenting I ended up moving almost all the functions of that cluster to a function layer underneath my right hand (including numpad on another layer). The only real advantage a numpad offers at this point is easy and clear accessibility to arithmetic operators, and since the F77 lacks the prerequisite 4th column of keys the nav block might as well be used for something else. (If you nix the arrow keys and just do a straight numpad, you could double up the operators at the top and put an Enter in the bottom left. Would be a bit of a stretch, but still usable imo.)
In the end, it is all a matter of personal opinion - my recommendation would be to not worry so much about having all the legend options and just let people mix and match from the full 104 kit that comes with each keyboard. (Or go pick up an M122 off eBay for cheap and fill out that nav with all manner of wacky function caps~)
And likewise, you haven't demonstrated it won't, or that it's limited to 1%. That's a hunch of yours, right?
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
At the risk of sounding like Elrick, these keyboards are like fine wines. Over the course of capacitive BS production at IBM there were several different styles of flipper, spring, barrel, case and PCB used (and, of course, material variations of each). What Ellipse seems to be trying to do is ensure the best of each category is put together to create the ideal Model F, not just another production run of whatever parts IBM was churning out last. I can tell you that different spring finishes and PCB materials can make a very perceptible difference in keyfeel and sound, especially regarding the hallmark ping of these boards.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 06 October 2017, 19:53:48
Though you are incidentally correct, you don't actually know that I have no experience with this stuff. You've assumed that about me.Since you didn’t buy into this out of trust in Ellipse, why did you buy into the early bird instead of the regular round? It seems like you have criticisms about Ellipse’s method but there are plenty of pages in this thread that are evidence that this is the way he does things. If you had bought into the regular round there would already be a product and you wouldn’t have to worry about sample timelines and delays because prototypes don’t meet his standards.
The long and short of it is you are making a lot of generalizations and I disagree with most of what you said. I certainly didn't buy into an individual when I put money into this project, I purchased a product, plain and simple.QuoteI absolutely didn't put money in out of trust or faith or something either, it was, and still is, a total risky buy to me, something where I'm like "Well, I'd rather lose 400$ but with the possibility of getting something I really want versus leaving that money sitting in my bank account, so fk it."If you really did say “f**k it” then why do you have so many criticisms about Ellipse’s method? By this statement it sounds like you treated this like a coin flip but up above you say that you “purchased a product, plain and simple”. Purchasing a product is not a coin flip at all. When you purchase a product, you fully expect to receive it in a timely manner. This round is a GB for an item that isn’t fully made yet. I’m not trying to be patronizing here but your contradicting statements really suggest that you didn’t fully understand what you were buying into.
And everyone deserves a good second guessing. Everyone.
Okay just to address one arguments, I can buy into something with a "**** it" attitude and still have criticisms about how things are run. They aren't mutually exclusive.
But beyond that, honestly, I really don't care to talk about it anymore. Like really, seriously, absolutely don't give a ****. And my original question wasn't even answered, which was an update request. From, ostensibly, ellipse.
Look, to anyone who cares to listen, I'll talk about this until I'm blue in the face once I get the F77 I ordered. Until then, I'm done with this conversation.
Post by: sixdeuces on Fri, 06 October 2017, 23:17:15
Post by: Softkore on Mon, 09 October 2017, 07:51:27
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 09 October 2017, 12:11:14
Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Mon, 09 October 2017, 12:17:49
The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
I think it's just the terminology that is leading some folks into confusion. I mean, we know there are going to be two production rounds, so it's natural for some people to call the second round R2. (Unless you are an old school coder who always starts counting at zero, haha!)
Post by: Softkore on Mon, 09 October 2017, 12:18:55
Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Oh woah, had no idea it was Zinc. Thanks very much for the info... Although perhaps I should be cursing you, as I think you've just convinced me I need one of these.
I'm skimming the thread now, we're in the early bird period now correct? Any idea when the regular rounds would end (probably hard to say if they haven't even begun yet hah)?
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 09 October 2017, 12:26:13
Yeah you’re probably right. Just wanted to make sure it’s clear that these are the only layouts Ellipse is making.The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
I think it's just the terminology that is leading some folks into confusion. I mean, we know there are going to be two production rounds, so it's natural for some people to call the second round R2. (Unless you are an old school coder who always starts counting at zero, haha!)
Yup, currently early bird. Ellipse has mentioned that the regular round will start 1-2 months after the early bird round has shipped. That way people can have the boards in their hands and the regular round people can have more confidence about what they’re getting.Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Oh woah, had no idea it was Zinc. Thanks very much for the info... Although perhaps I should be cursing you, as I think you've just convinced me I need one of these.
I'm skimming the thread now, we're in the early bird period now correct? Any idea when the regular rounds would end (probably hard to say if they haven't even begun yet hah)?
Post by: Softkore on Mon, 09 October 2017, 12:28:30
Yup, currently early bird. Ellipse has mentioned that the regular round will start 1-2 months after the early bird round has shipped. That way people can have the boards in their hands and the regular round people can have more confidence about what they’re getting.Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Oh woah, had no idea it was Zinc. Thanks very much for the info... Although perhaps I should be cursing you, as I think you've just convinced me I need one of these.
I'm skimming the thread now, we're in the early bird period now correct? Any idea when the regular rounds would end (probably hard to say if they haven't even begun yet hah)?
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
Post by: Softkore on Mon, 09 October 2017, 13:03:54
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:
(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 09 October 2017, 13:09:07
Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Post by: Softkore on Mon, 09 October 2017, 13:11:16
Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Yeah, I think I'm more interested in the ultra-compact layout - but only if it's equal quality to the traditional cases. The case definitely looks extremely crooked in the photo but I'm hoping it's just an issue with the lens/camera.
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 09 October 2017, 13:14:41
Something funky is definitely going on in those pictures and hopefully it’s just the lens or an odd angle. Do keep in mind that the ultra compact case is Aluminum and not Zinc, so it’ll be significantly lighter. If that’s alright with you then go for it!Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Yeah, I think I'm more interested in the ultra-compact layout - but only if it's equal quality to the traditional cases. The case definitely looks extremely crooked in the photo but I'm hoping it's just an issue with the lens/camera.
Post by: Softkore on Mon, 09 October 2017, 13:16:51
Something funky is definitely going on in those pictures and hopefully it’s just the lens or an odd angle. Do keep in mind that the ultra compact case is Aluminum and not Zinc, so it’ll be significantly lighter. If that’s alright with you then go for it!Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Yeah, I think I'm more interested in the ultra-compact layout - but only if it's equal quality to the traditional cases. The case definitely looks extremely crooked in the photo but I'm hoping it's just an issue with the lens/camera.
When I thought the case was plastic, it was literally the only plastic case I was willing to consider. Now that I know it's metal I'm absolutely stoked. I'm perfectly fine with either zinc or aluminum. My only other two cases are both aluminum.
I'm definitely ready to pull the trigger (gonna be a birthday present for myself) but would like to get some more info about that ultra-compact F77 (and the wonky photo) before I make a decision.
Post by: consolation on Tue, 10 October 2017, 21:13:38
...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
Post by: Softkore on Tue, 10 October 2017, 21:29:09
When does the early bird end? Still worried about the wonky looking pic... :/...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 10 October 2017, 21:42:09
Can I get a source on that?...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
Post by: SixtyLife on Tue, 10 October 2017, 21:42:56
...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
Hmm, where'd you see this?
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 10 October 2017, 21:50:04
Hmm, where'd you see this?I’m not the guy you were asking but I’ve been following this thread for a while and afaik there’s only been mention of being able to pay extra to get your board with a low serial number. This will let you get your board even earlier. Think expedited processing within the early bird round.
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
Post by: SixtyLife on Tue, 10 October 2017, 22:10:54
that's been my understanding as well, thanksHmm, where'd you see this?I’m not the guy you were asking but I’ve been following this thread for a while and afaik there’s only been mention of being able to pay extra to get your board with a low serial number. This will let you get your board even earlier. Think expedited processing within the early bird round.
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 10 October 2017, 23:13:27
Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
I've seen the prototype in person. It's straight.
("But how?" you may ask. He brings it to meetups.)
Post by: Softkore on Wed, 11 October 2017, 04:04:56
Awesome, thank you very much. Have you seen both the ultra compact and traditional versions? If so which do you prefer?Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
I've seen the prototype in person. It's straight.
("But how?" you may ask. He brings it to meetups.)
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Post by: consolation on Wed, 11 October 2017, 17:09:55
that's been my understanding as well, thanksHmm, where'd you see this?I’m not the guy you were asking but I’ve been following this thread for a while and afaik there’s only been mention of being able to pay extra to get your board with a low serial number. This will let you get your board even earlier. Think expedited processing within the early bird round.
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
I tried to find the comment on (I think) deskthority where that was mentioned, but, either; my search fu is lacking, or it's a figment of my imagination.
Just to clarify (looking in the mirror, "Ellipse, Ellipse Ellipse...")
Are early bird (non - custom/low serial) prices same as main run prices?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 13 October 2017, 22:09:32
Awesome, thank you very much. Have you seen both the ultra compact and traditional versions? If so which do you prefer?Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
I've seen the prototype in person. It's straight.
("But how?" you may ask. He brings it to meetups.)
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Far and away the traditional case
So much heavier and better looking
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 13 October 2017, 22:26:03
traditional case is ****ing baller
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 October 2017, 20:15:07
I received some PCB material samples from the factories but none was a match. They were on the good but not perfect sound level of the PCBs that already finished production.
I am now in talks with a longstanding US PCB material manufacturer who identified some specific characteristics of the old PCBs from photos I sent them - he will look into this some more this week. It seems like both the PCB substrate and solder mask of the old PCBs may have contributed to the sharp click sound. I asked about a custom vintage style PCB formulation just for this project - with near 1,000 PCB orders this may be possible.
I am still sourcing the special spring material identified by the material analysis lab. It is an old standard that is no longer as widely available in such a small diameter but will hopefully have good news from some wire manufacturers this week.
Sorry for the cell phone photo of the compact cases. They are correctly edged in person.
Yes for this project my desire for an equal or better quality reproduction of the original 4704 Model F is the most important goal, especially since there are nearly $400,000 in orders so far. It can be done internationally and at a lower cost to sell these at the $325 price point. It just has taken a lot longer than expected. I recently heard a saying that applies here - fast, high quality, or at a good cost - but you can only pick two of the three. For some background on some of the issues delaying the project here is a sampling of some of the issues: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/4-11-17-major-update-catch-up-how-close-are-we/
Pricing may change a little for the final aka second round as raw material prices have increased significantly since last year. Probably a price change of no more than $20 to $30 extra.
The low/custom serial option is a way of supporting the project and skipping several hundred people in line when these keyboards arrive and I start testing them one by one and mailing them out. The standard option still gets you in the early bird round so this option is not required.
Post by: consolation on Sun, 15 October 2017, 20:24:54
Post by: Softkore on Sun, 15 October 2017, 20:37:37
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Post by: consolation on Sun, 15 October 2017, 22:56:12
Awesome, thank you very much. Have you seen both the ultra compact and traditional versions? If so which do you prefer?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Compact for work and traditional for play...?
Paradoxically, if you need a conservative keyboard on your desk, go "compact." If you can have one with full flavour, go "traditional."
Post by: SuperBo on Tue, 17 October 2017, 07:49:52
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Post by: blk on Tue, 17 October 2017, 15:57:18
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 17 October 2017, 16:12:03
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Post by: blk on Tue, 17 October 2017, 16:32:06
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Tue, 17 October 2017, 21:30:26
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
I wouldn't trust anyone other Ellipse for shipping date timelines
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 18 October 2017, 14:51:14
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
I wouldn't trust anyone other Ellipse for shipping date timelines
Mid 2018 sounds like a pretty reasonable estimate to me
Post by: smt on Wed, 18 October 2017, 15:45:17
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
I wouldn't trust anyone other Ellipse for shipping date timelines
Mid 2018 sounds like a pretty reasonable estimate to me
I don't disagree that it sounds reasonable, but date estimates communicated by Ellipse are the only ones worth paying attention to.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 October 2017, 18:07:54
Another example quality control issue: Recently we had an issue with the USB cable clamps - the clamps the subcontractor sent the factory were so large they could not secure any USB cable!
Post by: consolation on Wed, 18 October 2017, 19:17:33
Post by: supamesican on Fri, 20 October 2017, 22:24:21
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 October 2017, 16:50:52
With the correct material and what was learned after the most recent sub-standard spring sample batch, hopefully the next batch of springs will match the originals.
The factory is returning the not-to-spec USB cable clamps to the clamp factory and they are re-making them.
I spoke to several experts and laminate suppliers this month and am looking into making the PCBs as close to the originals as possible.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 25 October 2017, 17:00:27
Update on the springs - one factory has agreed to manufacture the old wire standard for this project! Every other factory in recent weeks said no.Here's hoping for the best
With the correct material and what was learned after the most recent sub-standard spring sample batch, hopefully the next batch of springs will match the originals.
The factory is returning the not-to-spec USB cable clamps to the clamp factory and they are re-making them.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 25 October 2017, 21:04:01
Every other factory in recent weeks said no.
Maybe that's a bad sign? Why did they say no?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 October 2017, 21:31:20
Post by: euphxenos on Wed, 25 October 2017, 22:31:19
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6wodcp/bay_area_mechanical_keyboard_meetup_2017/
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 26 October 2017, 12:26:43
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 26 October 2017, 13:34:59
The old standard material is what was originally used and is no longer offered widely. Today's standard formulations and processes do not match the sound characteristics of the originals. The factory has tried with many modern materials over the past year or so to no avail.
Why is the old formulation not being used? Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued? Aside from sound profile, what other characteristics does the steel have? Is it the optimal compromise, taking all features and issues into account, for the keyboard?
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 26 October 2017, 15:48:47
Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?
cost
Post by: consolation on Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:24:01
Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?
cost
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:29:52
Pretty sure they’re talking about the spring steel.
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:35:51
That's very interesting, but seems to have little to do with the composition of a spring.Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?
cost
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:57:27
Pretty sure they’re talking about the spring steel.
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
this is correct
Post by: Glod on Fri, 27 October 2017, 12:42:36
Ellipse do you have anyone backing you up on the project management and distribution of the product if something were to happen to you. I know this usually does not get asked on other group buys but this is literally the biggest and complex community centered project I have ever seen on geekhack over 5 years being on here. You have have become a god.
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 27 October 2017, 16:40:17
This is going to sound pretty grim and may insult but I do have a question
Ellipse do you have anyone backing you up on the project management and distribution of the product if something were to happen to you. I know this usually does not get asked on other group buys but this is literally the biggest and complex community centered project I have ever seen on geekhack over 5 years being on here. You have have become a god.
Thats actually not a bad point.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 28 October 2017, 11:35:08
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 October 2017, 09:58:12
Post by: digi on Sun, 29 October 2017, 10:21:00
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project! Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!
New ETA = 2048! lol
Post by: Ouster on Sun, 29 October 2017, 12:11:25
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project! Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!You have to give yourself most of the credit there. I wasn't even aware of the Model F being better than the touted Model M. I think your standards of quality and sticking as closely to the original as possible made it so successful. It's definitely why I purchased one. The look of the boards with the retro case and keycaps was a big draw, then learning about how well built they will be compared to anything made today made the purchase an easy one.
Click-Clacked using Tapatalk
Post by: SuperBo on Sun, 29 October 2017, 23:44:46
Thank Ellipse for the best GB so far.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 02 November 2017, 11:01:00
Post by: Ramiel on Thu, 02 November 2017, 11:47:51
Ordered an F62 ;D.
Thank Ellipse for the best GB so far.
Just curious, what makes you think in this way?
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 02 November 2017, 12:21:40
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 02 November 2017, 12:37:45
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 02 November 2017, 13:37:28
I would assume he actually has manufacturers for all the parts. Remember, still working on springs and testing pcb material.I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
Post by: Ramiel on Thu, 02 November 2017, 14:16:07
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
I guess all the orders before he ships out any orders are all "early bird" round. So I assume he will keep postponing the deadline for "early bird" round util all the parts meet his standards, if they ever will.
Post by: Fluffypupper22 on Thu, 02 November 2017, 14:22:42
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
I guess all the orders before he ships out any orders are all "early bird" round. So I assume he will keep postponing the deadline for "early bird" round util all the parts meet his standards, if they ever will.
I was hoping we would receive these keyboards by Christmas, but It doesn't look like that's going to happen=(
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 November 2017, 16:50:30
Yes we are still in the early bird round for all orders. If all goes well with the factory timeline we can move to the regular round of orders next month!
Fluffypupper these keyboards will be well worth the wait! Early on I decided that quality is the most important aspect of this project, above meeting any self-imposed timeline. I will not ship poor quality goods to save a few months, especially with all the funds everyone has put in already for their keyboards. I want the factory to make quality products matching original specs and that should last for decades of use.
Post by: Ramiel on Thu, 02 November 2017, 16:58:38
We are still looking at shipping in Q1 2018 - again my apologies for the factory production delays. Even with a $400,000 manufacturing project we are not the highest priority project with the factory which focuses on much larger orders. I am happy they accepted the project and have spent a couple years of back and forth to perfect the parts - they have been a great partner except for the delays over the past year.
Yes we are still in the early bird round for all orders. If all goes well with the factory timeline we can move to the regular round of orders next month!
Fluffypupper these keyboards will be well worth the wait! Early on I decided that quality is the most important aspect of this project, above meeting any self-imposed timeline. I will not ship poor quality goods to save a few months, especially with all the funds everyone has put in already for their keyboards. I want the factory to make quality products matching original specs and that should last for decades of use.
What makes me anxious is that you always have new estimations for the shipping date. Now you're saying Q1 2018, but I guess there'll be new estimates later. I don't even know how many years I'll need to wait.
Post by: Jampu on Thu, 02 November 2017, 18:37:01
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 November 2017, 18:52:38
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 02 November 2017, 18:54:40
Yes there is an extra pad and barrel to split each of the left/right shifts into two keys. This is for both the regular and split right shift PCBs.He’s asking about a barrel next to the space bar, not split shift.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 November 2017, 19:01:02
Post by: Jampu on Fri, 03 November 2017, 05:44:12
Whoops - yes confirmed there is a barrel with no pad as part of the space bar.
Awesome, thanks!
Post by: dante on Fri, 03 November 2017, 07:41:22
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 November 2017, 16:38:09
Post by: kmba on Mon, 06 November 2017, 16:55:45
Post by: supamesican on Tue, 07 November 2017, 10:30:18
At least double. Even IBM offshored some Model F components to Asia, like the PCB.
Lexmark and unicomp continued this somewhat iirc with their model ms.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 November 2017, 16:30:42
They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory.
The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track. This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!
Post by: Lagomorph on Thu, 09 November 2017, 06:55:10
The springs are moving back to China. I found a factory willing to make the springs and am ordering samples this week.
They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory.
The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track. This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!
Thanks for the update Ellipse. I hope the samples from the Chinese factory meet your standards.
If nothing else, this project has provided enough experience for you to transition to a manufacturing production manager job, if you ever wanted that (after all of the difficulties experienced so far, I doubt you would). :D
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 09 November 2017, 07:54:29
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 November 2017, 17:36:29
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 09 November 2017, 19:06:01
The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYPE
Post by: krispy on Fri, 10 November 2017, 08:29:21
The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.
Hi Ellipse, I joined the GB a few months ago and mostly just lurk around here but I just wanted to say that your dedication to this project is inspiring and thank you for the detailed, constant updates. You are awesome! I'll go back to lurking now haha.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 November 2017, 18:46:18
Per the factory the key molds are expected to finish the first week of January. This is the same subcontractor that did a good job with the barrels and flippers (all to spec).
The spring samples should arrive next week. These are made with a new factory that had the exact original standard material that IBM used for their springs (I had them analyzed at a lab). To speed up assembly, the factory expects to build a bulk spring attacher (their prototype could attach one spring and flipper at a time).
Dark gray printed and unprinted sets are now up for order! https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-set-of-brand-new-production-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/
Total cost is $5 less than the $10 expected premium. These will be a limited early bird color to minimize extra setup charges for the final production run next year. You can pick free/other shipping if you want to add keys to your current order.
To keep the project on track and avoid extra assembly variations, these are extra sets only - they can't be your only set or installed set if ordering a keyboard.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 16 November 2017, 21:57:20
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 November 2017, 15:25:37
Post by: Fluffypupper22 on Fri, 17 November 2017, 15:31:50
mini update + dark gray keys now available to order!
Per the factory the key molds are expected to finish the first week of January. This is the same subcontractor that did a good job with the barrels and flippers (all to spec).
The spring samples should arrive next week. These are made with a new factory that had the exact original standard material that IBM used for their springs (I had them analyzed at a lab). To speed up assembly, the factory expects to build a bulk spring attacher (their prototype could attach one spring and flipper at a time).
Dark gray printed and unprinted sets are now up for order! https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-set-of-brand-new-production-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/
Total cost is $5 less than the $10 expected premium. These will be a limited early bird color to minimize extra setup charges for the final production run next year. You can pick free/other shipping if you want to add keys to your current order.
To keep the project on track and avoid extra assembly variations, these are extra sets only - they can't be your only set or installed set if ordering a keyboard.
Any photos of the keycaps?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 November 2017, 15:33:43
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Fri, 17 November 2017, 16:02:49
Nope the molds are still in production.I can't seem to remember, are these going to be single piece or two piece?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 November 2017, 16:39:53
Post by: Lagomorph on Sat, 18 November 2017, 09:58:32
Also, can we order extra blank "locator" keys? I'd love to put one on the 5/F5 key; I'm not used to having keyboards without separate F-key clusters so having that tactile feedback on the key will really help.
Are there any color caps that we won't be able to order extra "locator" keys?
Thanks again Ellipse. :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 18 November 2017, 10:00:24
yes - each extra key with nub is 3 units of the store item "$1 increments"
nope any one should be OK.
Post by: Lagomorph on Sat, 18 November 2017, 11:39:44
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 21 November 2017, 17:37:01
The springs should be finished up and shipped this week by DHL Express. I will examine them and hopefully sign off on them soon.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 21 November 2017, 17:39:22
Here are the first factory photos of the unfinished springs made with IBM's original material spec (they have not yet had the final protective finish applied to match the originals).
The springs should be finished up and shipped this week by DHL Express where I will examine them and hopefully sign off on them.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
fingers crossed
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 November 2017, 22:33:05
Inner assembly plates: The 1000+ pounds of steel for the inner assembly plates finally arrived this week at the factory! Next week starts the CNC laser cutting (next step for the plates).
The production inner foam is still being cut.
Still waiting on the spring samples to ship either tomorrow or early next week.
Post by: Pete on Fri, 24 November 2017, 03:58:50
Here are the first factory photos of the unfinished springs made with IBM's original material spec (they have not yet had the final protective finish applied to match the originals).
The springs should be finished up and shipped this week by DHL Express. I will examine them and hopefully sign off on them soon.
...
This must be the first time I have been excited by a bag of springs. Thanks for all the progress reports Ellipse.
I want to touch those springs so bad now... :)
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=182585;image)
Post by: leech on Tue, 28 November 2017, 19:40:01
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 28 November 2017, 19:50:36
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.You kind of have to take into consideration the scale of this run as well as the cost of manufacturing and tooling that did not exist before. You're for the capability to make these boards as much as you are the board itself. Also, it's only $395on the upper end, the more netry price is about $325.
Post by: sodiumjoe on Tue, 28 November 2017, 22:19:08
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.who cares? it is worth $395 to you, buy it, if not, kick rocks. Personally I hope he's making a decent profit since I'd like to see more projects like this happen and it represents a huge investment of time and research.
Post by: euphxenos on Tue, 28 November 2017, 22:33:35
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.
Sounds about right to me. A newly manufactured Model F is worth a heckuva lot more to me than a rubber dome keyboard with a built in lightshow. I'm sure there are people who see it the other way around. I sincerely hope Ellipse is making money on this, for all the effort he's putting into it. He's giving all of us a chance to buy a much sought-after keyboard that hasn't been manufactured for thirty years, in new condition. Imagine if your preferred Topres had been out of production for a few decades and someone started making new ones.
Post by: Fluffypupper22 on Wed, 29 November 2017, 02:16:58
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.
I would expect him to make some money from this. Remaking these is a very complicated process. The material cost is much more than that of a Realforce board and this takes a ton of effort on Ellipse's part due to communicating with factories and making sure parts are as close to the original as possible. These boards aren't even as much as some customs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 29 November 2017, 02:34:53
$400 is a bargain for these, IMO. Considering that's what a model F cost when they were new (and they were made on a corporate scale, not a hobbyist one), it's not a bad deal at all.
And consider again: most aluminum custom boards with more than one case part (Mech27v2, MIRA, LZ CLS, and The Moon, for example) are $400+ USD, and that's mostly CNC cost.
I'm sure he's taking a bit to cover incidentals, or at least I'd hope so. Something outside of the runner's control almost always goes wrong, so it's important to have the funds to fix it and make a perfect product.
Moreover, I'd like to double down on the point that these are being made on a small scale, with/as custom parts. They are NOT being made on a corporate scale like the model Fs of old, or Corsair boards, or Topre boards. The comparison does't make sense. Corsair sells, from what I've been told, "five figure amounts" of keyboards every month.
Just my 0.02c
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Wed, 29 November 2017, 17:55:40
Obviously I don't know the specifics of this particular GB, but I do know from my own past experience that GBs are not a good money-making venture.
$400 is a bargain for these, IMO. Considering that's what a model F cost when they were new (and they were made on a corporate scale, not a hobbyist one), it's not a bad deal at all.
And consider again: most aluminum custom boards with more than one case part (Mech27v2, MIRA, LZ CLS, and The Moon, for example) are $400+ USD, and that's mostly CNC cost.
I'm sure he's taking a bit to cover incidentals, or at least I'd hope so. Something outside of the runner's control almost always goes wrong, so it's important to have the funds to fix it and make a perfect product.
Moreover, I'd like to double down on the point that these are being made on a small scale, with/as custom parts. They are NOT being made on a corporate scale like the model Fs of old, or Corsair boards, or Topre boards. The comparison does't make sense. Corsair sells, from what I've been told, "five figure amounts" of keyboards every month.
Just my 0.02c
Well said. It is not at all cheap to make tooling for all of this, not to mention the many long hours spent designing, coordinating, etc. This is a huge endeavor to undertake.
Post by: snevok on Wed, 29 November 2017, 19:55:11
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 November 2017, 20:03:41
The new spring samples shipped this week and should arrive soon!
Post by: Jampu on Wed, 29 November 2017, 20:39:14
Can the barrels be swapped to different layouts? Lets say I ordered a standard right shift and backspace, but I wanted to switch to HHKB shift and backspace down the road. Is that possible?
To clarify, the only aspect of the layout that requires a different plate/foam/PCB is the HHKB-style right shift vs. regular right shift. Backspace can be split/combined after the fact provided you have the right keycap.
It should be further noted that splitting a key will require an additional flipper, and combining two keys will require the appropriate stabilizer insert.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 November 2017, 21:47:16
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 December 2017, 21:44:58
Also someone told me about a meetup in NJ on 2/10/18 - I hope to attend and bring the keyboards in case anyone's interested in trying out these keyboards in person.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7ec7j4/meetup_newark_nj_njit_february_10th_2018/
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 02 December 2017, 10:00:18
F77 518
F62 243
Compact F77 125
Compact F62 74
Grand Total 960
Extra Flipper and Spring 2527
Extra Barrel 1556
4 Extra bumpers 291
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 210
FirstAidKit 180
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 128
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 121
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 108
Unprinted 1U key 89
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 71
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 68
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122) 63
Key Cap Puller 39
Extra F77 Case 39
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver" 26
Extra PCB 5
Controller 4
Extra Case 3
Extra top inner assembly 3
Extra box + protective custom foam 1
Case Orders, Excl. Extra Cases
F77
Color: Industrial Gray 268
Color: Off-White/Beige 175
Color: Black 66
Color: True Red 4
Color: PANTONE 14-5002 TPX Silver Gray 3
Color: Another color 2
F77 Total 518
F62
Color: Off-White/Beige 115
Color: Industrial Gray 79
Color: Black 38
Color: True Red 9
Color: Another color 1
Color: Silver Gray 1
F62 Total 243
Compact F77
Color: Black 77
Color: Regular Gray 47
Color: Carolina Blue 1
Compact F77 Total 125
Compact F62
Color: Black 46
Color: Standard Gray 25
Color: Carolina Blue 1
Color: Another color 1
Color: Regular Gray 1
Compact F62 Total 74
Grand Total 960
Key Sets, Excl. Extra Sets
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 669
Keys: Black unprinted keys 99
Keys: International layout (pls specify which one on the checkout page) 74
Keys: Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 74
Keys: Use your own keys 35
Keys: APL Keys 3
Keys: Blue printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 2
Keys: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 1
Keys: ANSI Enter (default horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift 1
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout), Model M keys 1
keys: Brilliant white printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
Grand Total 960
Layout summary:
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 479
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 225
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 153
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 80
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 4
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 4
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 3
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 2
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 2
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
ANSI Enter (default – horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift 1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
Grand Total 960
Breakdown of layout options by keyboard type:
F77
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 286
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 88
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 79
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 50
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 4
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 3
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 2
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 2
ANSI Enter (default – horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift 1
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
F77 Total 518
F62
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 97
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 93
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 33
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 14
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 3
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 1
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
F62 Total 243
Compact F77
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 73
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 21
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 19
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 12
Compact F77 Total 125
Compact F62
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 28
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 27
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 13
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 4
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
Compact F62 Total 74
Grand Total 960
Bumper Type
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 other pictured bumpers (please specify in the notes) 73
Bumper type: 2 Large rubber bumpers (left of photo) with screw and nut plus 2 dome (middle of photo) 72
Bumper type: 4 Cork 44
Bumper type: 4 square 34
Bumper type: 4 dome (middle of photo) 22
Bumper type: 2 dome (middle of photo) + 2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 19
Bumper type: 2 dome + 2 square 14
Bumper type: 2 square (top right)+2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 12
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 cylindrical bumpers 1
Grand Total 291
F77 Right Side Block
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys 386
0-9 and cursor keys 192
Blank 62
Other 2
0-9 and cursor keys, blue unprinted keys for 5 and 0 1
Grand Total 643
Post by: Lagomorph on Sat, 02 December 2017, 11:06:34
Pardon my ignorance, but how would a split spacebar work? Would you be re-purposing one of the Alt keys as the "other space", and replacing the single big spacebar with two multi-U keys (not sure how big they'd need to be.. 4U?)?
I would love to do something like that and use one of them as space and the other as a layer trigger.
To what extent would that be supported with the current parts? What should I order to get myself most of the way there and what would I need to make/source myself?
Thanks again!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 02 December 2017, 11:25:47
Yes you could probably set another key like the alt key to act as another space bar.
Post by: Lagomorph on Sat, 02 December 2017, 12:49:16
No problem! Thanks for the quick reply (as always). :thumb:
Post by: Jampu on Sat, 02 December 2017, 23:12:03
I'm super excited. Thanks Ellipse.
Pardon my ignorance, but how would a split spacebar work? Would you be re-purposing one of the Alt keys as the "other space", and replacing the single big spacebar with two multi-U keys (not sure how big they'd need to be.. 4U?)?
I would love to do something like that and use one of them as space and the other as a layer trigger.
To what extent would that be supported with the current parts? What should I order to get myself most of the way there and what would I need to make/source myself?
Thanks again!
Not trying to talk around Ellipse again here (as he is correct, it is not possible on the stock board with any stock keyset)...
A split spacebar is theoretically possible thanks to the extra barrel under the spacebar. This barrel is on all IBM BS keyboards specifically for the Code key used on their typewriters - or at least it is now, as that is the only key they seem to have made that fits in that barrel. Said 2.75u key takes the place of left Alt and requires a stabilizer insert in the normally empty barrel to the right. To make the setup work you would also need the accompanying spacebar, and the spacebar stabilizer clips need to be repositioned (or new clips added) to match the new position. (It is important to note that the Alt keys on both sides will be eliminated, but as these boards are completely programmable it is of little consequence.)
I have confirmed this works on the F107 but have not made new stabilizer clips yet for a permanent install. This mod has probably been done before, but I can not find any pictures at the moment unfortunately.
Post by: Ouster on Sun, 03 December 2017, 02:44:46
After seeing how many extra flipper and springs, also barrels, are ordered is this something I should order as well for longevity of the board? I ordered a first aid kit and figured that would be enough to deal with the usual wear and tear. I'm very careful with all my keyboards so I don't expect much trouble with my F77 especially.
Click-Clacked using Tapatalk
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 03 December 2017, 02:48:30
Nice numbers! Interesting to see the breakdown, I had a feeling the F77 was going to be the big draw.
After seeing how many extra flipper and springs, also barrels, are ordered is this something I should order as well for longevity of the board? I ordered a first aid kit and figured that would be enough to deal with the usual wear and tear. I'm very careful with all my keyboards so I don't expect much trouble with my F77 especially.
Click-Clacked using Tapatalk
the originals were basically bulletproof, and from what i've seen these are pretty rugged as well
but it's better to have spare parts than not, always
Post by: Lagomorph on Sun, 03 December 2017, 07:37:33
Not trying to talk around Ellipse again here (as he is correct, it is not possible on the stock board with any stock keyset)...
A split spacebar is theoretically possible thanks to the extra barrel under the spacebar. This barrel is on all IBM BS keyboards specifically for the Code key used on their typewriters - or at least it is now, as that is the only key they seem to have made that fits in that barrel. Said 2.75u key takes the place of left Alt and requires a stabilizer insert in the normally empty barrel to the right. To make the setup work you would also need the accompanying spacebar, and the spacebar stabilizer clips need to be repositioned (or new clips added) to match the new position. (It is important to note that the Alt keys on both sides will be eliminated, but as these boards are completely programmable it is of little consequence.)
I have confirmed this works on the F107 but have not made new stabilizer clips yet for a permanent install. This mod has probably been done before, but I can not find any pictures at the moment unfortunately.
I had no idea about the BS typewriter "code" key, but after looking at some pictures I see exactly what you mean. It absolutely appears to be the right way to approach it. If I decide to take a shot at this, I'll post up pictures of my successes / failures for posterity.
Jampu, thank you so much for this information. Genuinely appreciated.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Sun, 03 December 2017, 11:13:34
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 December 2017, 11:21:52
Yes full NKRO is confirmed.
Post by: tron on Tue, 12 December 2017, 10:36:50
The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.
Have you had a chance to review the springs?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 December 2017, 22:34:10
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound - many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I'd like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don't worry I won't be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing - who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released - not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.
Post by: smt on Wed, 13 December 2017, 09:54:14
Post by: tron on Wed, 13 December 2017, 10:27:35
Post by: Pete on Sun, 17 December 2017, 21:44:18
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year
Like a mellow scotch, aged to perfection :)
(https://i.imgur.com/h6FmEhR.jpg)
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 18 December 2017, 12:47:36
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 18 December 2017, 14:01:41
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 18 December 2017, 15:04:15
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
Looks like you are expressing your frustration again. However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board. If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.
Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 18 December 2017, 15:41:17
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
Looks like you are expressing your frustration again. However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board. If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.
Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.
Whatever. Regardless of my "frustrations," aging springs is complete bull****.
And, please, if we were having this conversation over the PCB, that would be "arguably the most important part of the board." Same with anything else. To hear you guys tell it, the adhesive used to hold the model number and info sticker to the bottom of the case will make or break the board.
This isn't perfectionism, this is obsession. This is fixating on things that have negligible, maybe even immeasurable, effects on the end result.
Post by: consolation on Mon, 18 December 2017, 16:49:43
I say that with great admiration, thank you for your focus; I'd have burned out after a few months and just pushed it out the door. I can't wait for Chinese New Year 2018, better than Christmas!
Post by: Xonar on Mon, 18 December 2017, 18:48:04
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
Looks like you are expressing your frustration again. However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board. If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.
Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.
Whatever. Regardless of my "frustrations," aging springs is complete bull****.
And, please, if we were having this conversation over the PCB, that would be "arguably the most important part of the board." Same with anything else. To hear you guys tell it, the adhesive used to hold the model number and info sticker to the bottom of the case will make or break the board.
This isn't perfectionism, this is obsession. This is fixating on things that have negligible, maybe even immeasurable, effects on the end result.
Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.
I trust Ellipse's judgment after following this project since the very beginning. Sound is paramount, right up there with how the board feels. I want this board to feel and sound just like (if not better than) the other 4704s I've used. If Ellipse says that aging the springs will bring the final product closer to that goal, there must be good reason for it.
Post by: a_ak57 on Mon, 18 December 2017, 18:52:24
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 18 December 2017, 19:47:52
A piano restoration thread on another forum was discussing the dulling of the piano wire tone with rust/corrosion over time - in line with what I observed - though the slight dulling/lower pitch is something preferred with the Model F! The sound changes are probably accelerated with significant usage daily of the Model F keyboard and the stress induced on the wire during the spring production (winding and heat treating) processes.
I also did some usage tests, including pulling and compressing on the springs and re-testing them and with the springs installed, and the repro Model F spring sound definitely changes with significant usage/stress from stretching and compressing.
But yes a_ak is right, we are not delaying things so not to worry!
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 19 December 2017, 00:58:04
Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.
First of all, I think a number of things have been done without good reason.
Regardless, Spring steel is fundamentally designed not to "age" or whatever. I'll look for a paper on the subject. Not to mention, exactly what makes you an authority on the subject? And when did I say the spring properties aren't important? Aging is bull****, the design of the spring itself isn't.
And for all this, you think IBM was putting aged springs in the Model F? I don't think so.
As for your testing, Ellipse: placebo effect. You really think the results are significant, then make recordings, do some analysis, and post the findings. Or don't I guess, I mean it's your project.
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
Post by: Xonar on Tue, 19 December 2017, 09:58:35
Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.
First of all, I think a number of things have been done without good reason.
Regardless, Spring steel is fundamentally designed not to "age" or whatever. I'll look for a paper on the subject. Not to mention, exactly what makes you an authority on the subject? And when did I say the spring properties aren't important? Aging is bull****, the design of the spring itself isn't.
And for all this, you think IBM was putting aged springs in the Model F? I don't think so.
As for your testing, Ellipse: placebo effect. You really think the results are significant, then make recordings, do some analysis, and post the findings. Or don't I guess, I mean it's your project.
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
Who's acting like an authority on the subject? I don't remember making any claims about spring steel or the the aging process, just that I trust Ellipse's word and that you had no evidence to support your argument that it was bull****. (And I still haven't seen you post much of it.) I don't know if aging really makes a difference or not in the sound of spring steel but unless you can prove it doesn't I'm going to assume Ellipse knows what he's talking about.
IBM certainly wasn't putting aged springs in their keyboards, but they also weren't shooting to completely replicate a keyboard down to its sound so that obviously wouldn't be necessary.
However, I don't think posting an analysis or at least recordings of the differing sounds would be a bad idea. Definitely would be interesting at the very least.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 20 December 2017, 00:34:51
However, I don't think posting an analysis or at least recordings of the differing sounds would be a bad idea. Definitely would be interesting at the very least.
Completely useless due to sound usually being falsely recorded and disseminated via the web (bad idea).
Understand his desire to recreate the sound and feel of any Model-F series. Has NEVER been done before and he doesn't want his efforts to be laughed at or derided as being un-Model-F like.
Remember it's his name on the line here not your's, hence he will go to the end of the earth to create that authentic sound that so much of us laid down money for last year and we are comfortable about waiting for the final production. For me, I don't have ONE keyboard to rely upon so he can take his time to get his design done right the FIRST time, when it's finally released.
Suspect Ellipse has become the World's expert on Model-F keyboard's, even though that wasn't his initial intention. He probably has the ability to totally restore an ancient 1946 Indian Chief Motorcycle to a fully concourse conditioned vehicle, that's the person you want in charge of conducting any complicated restoration project, due to his own diligence and will to make it happen :thumb: .
Onya Boyo because at least know you have one person here, who appreciates your effort and the time spent thus far.
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 20 December 2017, 01:19:25
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 20 December 2017, 19:09:50
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 20 December 2017, 19:20:25
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 20 December 2017, 21:56:16
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 20 December 2017, 22:41:52
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.
Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 20 December 2017, 22:51:36
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.
Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.
Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.
I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?
So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.
Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 20 December 2017, 23:23:48
Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.
I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?
So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.
Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.
I never assumed you are not wildly obsessed over things. Do you have a degree in materials science? Does Ellipse? Are you qualified? He posts updates quite frequently. Putting things in quotes doesn't make them more outrageous. I am a skeptic, but require some more evidence prior to overstating my position. I think you may possess a not-entirely-wrong mindset, but are using far too self-indulgent in your word choice. Almost everything you say infers you have a more in-depth knowledge than the person you are opposing. TBH, this isn't a test in your academic knowledge, it's a test of your patience and trust. I'm not questioning your academic knowledge, I just think you lack the following two attributes.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 20 December 2017, 23:28:49
There's just one issue: Ellipse has in his time here built up a solid reputation good enough for people to put backing behind this project. You,on the other hand, have been doing nothing but creating controversy and a generally negative image around yourself not just on GH, but on r/MK as well. People are going to believe Ellipse over simply due to that fact.Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.
Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.
Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.
I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?
So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.
Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 00:35:16
There's just one issue: Ellipse has in his time here built up a solid reputation good enough for people to put backing behind this project. You,on the other hand, have been doing nothing but creating controversy and a generally negative image around yourself not just on GH, but on r/MK as well. People are going to believe Ellipse over simply due to that fact.
That's dangerously close to ad hominem.
That being said, what I see is a lot of cult-like faith in both communities, but more so in this one. I don't ascribe to that.
I also see a lot of bad defenses. Blame shifting, etc.
My problem is I have no shame being vocal, and also abrasive. Not good for engendering myself with the community, or even helping my argument, but generally I don't think my concerns, complaints, or objections are unfounded. For everything I say, I have a reason that I've taken time to think about.
You probably see me as someone who thinks he knows everything, who thinks if given the chance to, for example, run a group buy or even a business would knock it out of the park. And how painfully naive I am, unaware of the multitude of subtleties which lead to almost intractable complication.
But you couldn't be further from the truth. I have ideas about how to run those things, about how to make products and such, but I'm damn well aware of the difficulty. And I certainly have immense respect for those producing something valuable.
One of my worries is that I'm one of the few willing to actually speak up about my concerns. I'm not sure that's the case though, and I'm not vain enough to suppose I'm that special.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 21 December 2017, 00:45:06
That's dangerously close to ad hominem.
That being said, what I see is a lot of cult-like faith in both communities, but more so in this one. I don't ascribe to that.
I also see a lot of bad defenses. Blame shifting, etc.
You probably see me as someone who thinks he knows everything, who thinks if given the chance to, for example, run a group buy or even a business would knock it out of the park. And how painfully naive I am, unaware of the multitude of subtleties which lead to almost intractable complication.
Amazing,you perfectly described the way you come across in almost every thread I see you in. If that really is as far from the truth as you claim, then I'm afraid you are severely lacking in communication skills. If you KNOW that the way you talk "probably doesn't help your point", then maybe you should consider wording it in a way that DOES, yes? I am by no means opposed to any sort of criticism, but you just come across as someone who complains solely to be heard. You rarely seem to provide any manner of constructive criticism in your comments, and simply end it at "this is pointless" and "this is bull***t and you know it", in affect. At least provide some manner of explanation as to WHY something is incorrect l, rather than just saying it is. Otherwise I'm afraid all you're really doing is wasting your own time.
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 21 December 2017, 03:00:20
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
You know what I mean. Steel doesn't age for the simple passing of time. If you keep it in the rain, if you stress it with cyclical forces, obviously it changes its properties, but not because of age, but because you stress it, and because you corrode it.
Post by: 2Cas on Thu, 21 December 2017, 09:14:22
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 21 December 2017, 09:49:44
Post by: sixdeuces on Thu, 21 December 2017, 11:08:01
Then we spiral into a controversy about the validity of spring aging and Eillispe's decisions? Seems like a bit of a tangent, tbh.
Aging doesn't melt steel springs...
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 11:12:25
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:04:20
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:07:26
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Not just material, but I'd also guess scale has an effect. A coil spring in your car, big monster spring like that, I sort of intuitively understand that it could set in to the vehicle over time. But at inch or half inch scale, like the Model F springs are, with very small wire diameter, I can't get it around my head that they would change except after at least a few million cycles. Partly at least because I imagine you can get the internal stresses really uniform.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:12:35
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:14:46
Look up high cycle fatigue. Spring steel is better at resisting fatigue than other types of steel but it’s not magical. Springs steels fatigue just like every other material.Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Source: I also have a degree in Materials Science and Engineering
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:17:36
Look up high cycle fatigue. Spring steel is better at resisting fatigue than other types of steel but it’s not magical. Springs steels fatigue just like every other material.Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Source: I also have a degree in Materials Science and Engineering
High five!
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:17:47
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year? And what's the threshold for your fingers/ears to be able to sense a change?
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:21:55
High five!High five! :cool:
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 12:24:58
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year?
The paper clip is a demonstration of what happens with repeated stressing of a material.
He's trying to replicate the old boards plain and simple.
Well considering this is his project and he stated his goals, he can't use a new material in his mind. He wants that same sound and feel.
Honestly though, why did you even buy into this project?
Post by: duynguyenle on Thu, 21 December 2017, 13:17:10
Look up high cycle fatigue. Spring steel is better at resisting fatigue than other types of steel but it’s not magical. Springs steels fatigue just like every other material.Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Source: I also have a degree in Materials Science and Engineering
Or just look up what happened to the De Havilland Comet.
Source: Also have a degree in engineering, but not specifically in Materials. Can I still join the club?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 13:29:00
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year?
The paper clip is a demonstration of what happens with repeated stressing of a material.
He's trying to replicate the old boards plain and simple.
Well considering this is his project and he stated his goals, he can't use a new material in his mind. He wants that same sound and feel.
Honestly though, why did you even buy into this project?
Same reason everyone else did? Because I want a really cool keyboard? I admit I don't give two ****s about it being a perfect, exact replica of the original (I'm not sure I've even actually ever used an original Model F). In fact, one of the reasons I bought into this project instead of picking up an SSK on ebay or whatever is because I wanted a fully modernized buckling spring . That the (new) Model F's are advertised as USB plug-and-play and fully programmable was a huge selling point for me. I'm not insignificantly disappointed that similar modernization isn't being applied to the rest of the keyboard.
Personally, I think that - replication vs. improvement - isn't forward thinking, and I don't think it's a defense that holds water.
You didn't answer the paperclip question - plastic or elastic deformation?
Ellipse knows what the original is like, not me. So he is the one who is really qualified to judge where improvements should be made. But, again my feeling is that doing an exact duplication of a 30 year old product is totally missing a great opportunity to improve on it.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 13:36:17
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year?
The paper clip is a demonstration of what happens with repeated stressing of a material.
He's trying to replicate the old boards plain and simple.
Well considering this is his project and he stated his goals, he can't use a new material in his mind. He wants that same sound and feel.
Honestly though, why did you even buy into this project?
Same reason everyone else did? Because I want a really cool keyboard? I admit I don't give two ****s about it being a perfect, exact replica of the original (I'm not sure I've even actually ever used an original Model F). In fact, one of the reasons I bought into this project instead of picking up an SSK on ebay or whatever is because I wanted a fully modernized buckling spring . That the (new) Model F's are advertised as USB plug-and-play and fully programmable was a huge selling point for me. I'm not insignificantly disappointed that similar modernization isn't being applied to the rest of the keyboard.
Personally, I think that - replication vs. improvement - isn't forward thinking, and I don't think it's a defense that holds water.
You didn't answer the paperclip question - plastic or elastic deformation?
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 14:19:05
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 14:43:15
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 14:50:45
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 21 December 2017, 15:06:49
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
Cherry gives lifespan on their switch life on their site
Post by: zacheadams on Thu, 21 December 2017, 15:23:16
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
5-100 million actuations depending on switch/spring/material
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 21 December 2017, 15:42:09
To be honest, the only people who might be able to answer that question are the ones who engineered that specific spring.
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
Speaking of keyboard springs in general, I’m pretty sure they choose a material that they’re sure won’t snap before the electronics fail. Especially since electronics are by far more prone to outright failure than a spring. They might have been fine with some feeling change throughout the life of the switch or it might have been prohibitively expensive to use a material that wouldn’t noticeably change. Again, extremely difficult to say without being the designer of the spring.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 21 December 2017, 17:55:12
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
5-100 million actuations depending on switch/spring/material
Anyone want to solve the keystrokes per year Fermi problem?
Post by: 2Cas on Thu, 21 December 2017, 20:15:34
Post by: Pete on Thu, 21 December 2017, 21:09:33
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
Post by: supamesican on Fri, 22 December 2017, 08:00:29
The good news is that if these are made to the same standards as IBM, we know they'll last at least 30-40 years as a minimum before needing replacement foam, and eventually also replacement springs. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
The main reason I got this, besides want moar model F. In two days I'll be 26, 40 years after I get this board I will have retired. I'm fine with needing to start repairing/maintaining what may be my favorite keyboard ever as a retirement hobby. Gotta wonder if in said 40 years anyone else will try to re-create a different model F or even a beamspring or selectric...
Post by: krispy on Fri, 22 December 2017, 14:55:21
The original timeline for these wasn't 2 years (although it has turned out that way unfortunately). The original intention of this was to be a relatively straightforward and simple effort to bring back from the dead something that hasn't been around for 30+ years.
Wait is 2 years really the timeline? :( Genuinely curious here. I joined the GB a couple months ago but I still have no idea what the timeline is or if there is one?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 22 December 2017, 18:06:19
The original timeline for these wasn't 2 years (although it has turned out that way unfortunately). The original intention of this was to be a relatively straightforward and simple effort to bring back from the dead something that hasn't been around for 30+ years.
Wait is 2 years really the timeline? :( Genuinely curious here. I joined the GB a couple months ago but I still have no idea what the timeline is or if there is one?
Join the club. I joined over a year ago and I still can only guess at when I'll see it.
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 23 December 2017, 09:43:44
It seems like I was one of the few people to be excited about the latest springs update. :(
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
I enjoy all of ellipse's updates. I'm excited for these to go out.
Post by: futurecrime on Sat, 23 December 2017, 15:03:46
It seems like I was one of the few people to be excited about the latest springs update. :(
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
I enjoy all of ellipse's updates. I'm excited for these to go out.
Same. I'm finding it fascinating tbh, and being made aware of all the fine details and challenges is fuelling the anticipation and giving me an education. And I bet I'll appreciate my F77 so much more when it's finally sat on my desk, knowing the work that's gone into making it. I'm in no rush.
Post by: dotcom on Mon, 25 December 2017, 11:22:15
It seems like I was one of the few people to be excited about the latest springs update. :(
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
I'm excited, as well!
Not only will this project produce new Model F keyboards, but because Ellipse has chosen to stick to the original specs as much as possible, we also have the ability (for the first time ever, to my knowledge, since Model Fs ceased being produced) to purchase new replacement parts for original Model Fs--the most critical of which is (arguably) the springs. This is really is quite amazing.
Personally, I'm really thankful Ellipse is being so meticulous about the components.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 January 2018, 19:09:25
The inside foam has completed production.
The key molds will be finished up this week and the first tests will be done next week.
The factory was sent one of my XT key sets so that they can exactly reproduce the texture, colors, and other characteristics of the original.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 02 January 2018, 20:31:27
Some quick updates:
The inside foam has completed production.
The key molds will be finished up this week and the first tests will be done next week.
The factory was sent one of my XT key sets so that they can exactly reproduce the texture, colors, and other characteristics of the original.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
damn, cool pics
thanks ellipse
Post by: esquilax on Wed, 03 January 2018, 11:51:00
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 03 January 2018, 11:59:51
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Wed, 03 January 2018, 12:33:03
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
It's an injection mold
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 03 January 2018, 17:57:08
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?That's an injection mold for the keycaps.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 03 January 2018, 20:46:41
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 03 January 2018, 22:25:46
Post by: Lagomorph on Thu, 04 January 2018, 07:51:04
Maybe unicomp be thinking now, "maybe we should have fixed our tooling", I am curious if this is only going to be used for the model F reproduction or if this would lead to better OG model m/f cap sets as well in the future after the model f.
I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but in 2014 I emailed Unicomp and desperately tried to make the case that they are missing an opportunity to expand their product line to compete in the rapidly growing enthusiast keyboard market. Things like an SSK, programmable controllers, split layouts, upgrades to their endurapro trackpoint (similar to Tex Yoda), more keycap offerings, etc. Any of these would require a big investment, but the window to ride that wave up won't be there forever. I mentioned that the keyboard communities would love to open a channel of communication with them if they're interested. Didn't get a reply.
Anyway, thanks for the update pics Ellipse. The excitement is palpable.
Post by: esquilax on Thu, 04 January 2018, 08:54:11
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
It's an injection mold
Ah, I see the caps one. I take it that the one with the round things on it is for barrels? What's the top one?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 04 January 2018, 08:55:30
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
It's an injection mold
Ah, I see the caps one. I take it that the one with the round things on it is for barrels? What's the top one?
Looks like the multiple parts to an injection mold
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Thu, 04 January 2018, 09:51:43
I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but in 2014 I emailed Unicomp and desperately tried to make the case that they are missing an opportunity to expand their product line to compete in the rapidly growing enthusiast keyboard market.
Yeah, it's interesting to speculate. It would require capital investment, but that's not the major obstacle. I think the main problem would be psychological, because it would require a completely different business strategy, a big mental shift-of-gears. That's very difficult to achieve in an established company.
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 04 January 2018, 10:58:52
Maybe unicomp be thinking now, "maybe we should have fixed our tooling", I am curious if this is only going to be used for the model F reproduction or if this would lead to better OG model m/f cap sets as well in the future after the model f.
Nah what they shoulda done is gotten an ssk mold. Then put a capsense board option along side the membrane one. So I could have a full sized ansi model f with model m springs at my desk(I prefer the heavier springs tbh but do love model f's too) and 4 ten keyless for my 3 backup/htpc rigs and one to switchout with the main one. :P :p
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 January 2018, 17:39:55
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 05 January 2018, 19:10:22
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 05 January 2018, 19:13:50
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
the titanium grey that older kustoms (KMAC, 356CL DGE) use is really nice
something like that would be popular, i bet
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 05 January 2018, 19:13:58
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
:blank:
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 05 January 2018, 19:15:24
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
Dude, give it up. He's very actively communicating with everyone and is not in any way acting suspicious about how he's handling this group buy. You have no beef to pick here. Keep the discussion on topic and relevant.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 05 January 2018, 21:40:02
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
Dude, give it up. He's very actively communicating with everyone and is not in any way acting suspicious about how he's handling this group buy. You have no beef to pick here. Keep the discussion on topic and relevant.
I just think bragging about how many keyboards have been delivered is a lot more impressive than bragging about how many have been sold.
Post by: xondat on Fri, 05 January 2018, 21:54:13
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
Amazing milestone.
The industrial IBM gray is super nice imo.
Post by: ricyuyc on Fri, 05 January 2018, 22:46:33
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!Yes, IBM Industrial Grey please.
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
Amazing milestone.
The industrial IBM gray is super nice imo.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 05 January 2018, 23:13:22
If that's the case, I'd estimate that the gray should be maybe 15-20% lighter than pure black.
Post by: jzono1 on Fri, 05 January 2018, 23:13:46
IBM Industrial gray is nice and all, but wouldn't that be... a bit too bright? I thought the idea was to have something aesthetically close to black unlabeled keys, but with subtle legends. Ala the HHKB Dark gray or something like that.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate clean and legible black on gray - and went that way twice with Unicomp Model Ms - but that's not the look that was described in the interest check thread, or the look I signed up for and ordered (twice.) This was used as a reference in the interest check: https://originative.co/products/pbt-carbon-black
I think maybe it'd be wise to try and go ever so more dark than the Orginative set. More like HHKB / Realforce black on dark gray.
That kind of dark-gray combined with a true red case. I think it'll be stunningly nice :D
Post by: Kavik on Sat, 06 January 2018, 00:56:00
We're talking about the gray color for those black on dark-gray keycaps now, right?
IBM Industrial gray is nice and all, but wouldn't that be... a bit too bright? I thought the idea was to have something aesthetically close to black unlabeled keys, but with subtle legends. Ala the HHKB Dark gray or something like that.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate clean and legible black on gray - and went that way twice with Unicomp Model Ms - but that's not the look that was described in the interest check thread, or the look I signed up for and ordered (twice.) This was used as a reference in the interest check: https://originative.co/products/pbt-carbon-black
I think maybe it'd be wise to try and go ever so more dark than the Orginative set. More like HHKB / Realforce black on dark gray.
That kind of dark-gray combined with a true red case. I think it'll be stunningly nice :D
+1 This is exactly what I have been picturing.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 07 January 2018, 09:59:20
Post by: Lagomorph on Sun, 07 January 2018, 10:35:12
The carbon black is really nice; I hope the dark gray keys are similar to those.
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 08 January 2018, 01:33:53
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
If you're worried about PayPal protection, I think that you can ask for your invoice to be cancelled, and then to be reissued by the op.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 08 January 2018, 11:27:00
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
If you're worried about PayPal protection, I think that you can ask for your invoice to be cancelled, and then to be reissued by the op.
Whaaaaat??? No way? Why isn't that standard practice? And how exactly do you do that?
I don't think I want to actually do it right now cause I don't want to screw with anything, but that's really valuable. Actual buyer protection rather than this 3 month or whatever bull****.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 08 January 2018, 11:45:53
Post by: ljosa on Mon, 08 January 2018, 13:01:12
I never use the feet on my Model Ms or any other keyboards, so I suppose I should stay away from the tall bumpers. But of the smaller ones, what are the benefit of cork vs dome vs square vs small cylindrical?
The product page is here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
Post with the various bumpers and links to the vendors' pages: https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046-720.html#p265317
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 08 January 2018, 14:04:14
This has been angering me for weeks. I don't understand why the hostility towards the progress and timeline or daring to lock this guys money in paypal. This is not an off the shelf product, when this started it was very clear that the prototypes were exactly that. He has been completely transparent on where things are at to everyone's amazement. This is the most complex and ambitious project i have ever seen on geekhack over the 5.5 years I have been here including deskthority and massdrop and other related group buy sources. I dont crap on massdrop as much as others but there is no way even them would take on something like this. This is history people, If you are just here for "a cool keyboard" that you'll get tomorrow then you drastically misunderstand what you bought into. Support Ellipse and help him succeed.
Well, first of all, virtually all group buys run over 3 months, making the paypal dispute window totally useless. Some group buys are run by reliable people, some aren't, but on both cases we, the buyers, are always unprotected. So my interest in the paypal thing is nothing personal with respect to Ellipse, I just like the idea of it as a standard way to afford buyers a little more protection and a little less caveat emptor, if you know what I mean.
As for this group buy, I would be pretty happy and feel a lot more comfortable if I had more information than we are being provided. You all feel like we know a lot, but I've got a lot of unanswered questions. That's all I'll say about that.
But, hey, it's only 400$. If I don't end up with anything to show for it I don't, such as life.
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 08 January 2018, 14:35:38
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 08 January 2018, 15:19:20
PayPal protection lasts 6 months.
Doesn't change much. Probably 90% of all group buys last longer than that.
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 08 January 2018, 17:00:36
Good day, sir. Good day to you!
Post by: schoolbus on Mon, 08 January 2018, 17:05:15
Pancake, if I wished you a good day, would you find something wrong with my statement?
Good day, sir. Good day to you!
Spoiler, he would! Some people just enjoy being angry all the time.
Post by: Pete on Mon, 08 January 2018, 20:20:15
...Some people just enjoy being angry all the time.(https://i.imgur.com/JkwE8yA.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 January 2018, 08:15:22
Here is a video of the 1U key injection mold in action! Everything is so automated. All other keys also finished; will post photos later this week.
I will receive the samples from the factory later this month for evaluation.
Post by: ljosa on Tue, 16 January 2018, 08:29:59
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 16 January 2018, 12:41:19
The very first one-piece keys just came out of the new injection molds!
Here is a video of the 1U key injection mold in action! Everything is so automated. All other keys also finished; will post photos later this week.
I will receive the samples from the factory later this month for evaluation.
Very cool
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 16 January 2018, 15:11:49
Post by: Lagomorph on Tue, 16 January 2018, 17:48:55
The only thing better than getting a new model F is getting new model F AND being able to watch and enjoy the process of it being made. :thumb:
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 17 January 2018, 16:01:03
Even better? Getting one of each. ;P
The only thing better than getting a new model F is getting new model F AND being able to watch and enjoy the process of it being made. :thumb:
Post by: zl_ramiel on Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:09:52
Post by: esquilax on Thu, 18 January 2018, 08:12:25
The very first one-piece keys just came out of the new injection molds!
Here is a video of the 1U key injection mold in action! Everything is so automated. All other keys also finished; will post photos later this week.
I will receive the samples from the factory later this month for evaluation.
Now I understand what all those parts are for! :)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 19 January 2018, 23:32:08
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 19 January 2018, 23:34:32
zl_ramiel the PCB batch finished production last year. We're waiting on the Japanese steel springs to be drawn to the proper nonstandard Model F wire diameter and then for the sample springs to be made. Should be done around month end. Hopefully I get the key samples from the new molds around the same time and before CNY break, when there will likely be some pause in the production for a week or two.
CNY break is later than normal this year, so you've got good odds.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 24 January 2018, 23:00:13
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 27 January 2018, 13:02:19
A few of each type of the completed production inner foam arrived and they are all excellent.
The key samples arrived and I can confirm that the key texture is an excellent match to the original XT keys. The keys are also great quality - nice thick walls, strong, high quality PBT.
With the next key samples arriving in a week or two, they should be within tolerance (these first sample keys were just to see the key top texture and PBT quality - they do not yet meet the strict tolerances). The factory is still working out the PBT shrinkage issues (PBT is a difficult plastic to work with because it shrinks during the injection molding process).
Soon after I am hoping for the correct key colors for the project to be confirmed (pearl/pebble, blue, etc.).
The spring samples are almost done - just waiting on the finishing stage and then they can mail them.
So it's just the keys, top and bottom inner assembly, springs, and compact cases that are not yet waiting to be assembled. Everything else is boxed and ready for assembly. For storage reasons the outside protective foam and boxes will be done last by the factory, when everything else is just about done.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 27 January 2018, 13:16:14
The factory has made nice progress on version 2.0 of the key-flipper assembler. It appears to work with pneumatics. This should save significant assembly time and avoid this part of assembly becoming a bottleneck to the project.
A few of each type of the completed production inner foam arrived and they are all excellent.
The key samples arrived and I can confirm that the key texture is an excellent match to the original XT keys. The keys are also great quality - nice thick walls, strong, high quality PBT.
With the next key samples arriving in a week or two, they should be within tolerance (these first sample keys were just to see the key top texture and PBT quality - they do not yet meet the strict tolerances). The factory is still working out the PBT shrinkage issues (PBT is a difficult plastic to work with because it shrinks during the injection molding process).
Soon after I am hoping for the correct key colors for the project to be confirmed (pearl/pebble, blue, etc.).
The spring samples are almost done - just waiting on the finishing stage and then they can mail them.
So it's just the keys, top and bottom inner assembly, springs, and compact cases that are not yet waiting to be assembled. Everything else is boxed and ready for assembly. For storage reasons the outside protective foam and boxes will be done last by the factory, when everything else is just about done.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Thanks for the update. The keycaps look great!
Post by: Khers on Sat, 27 January 2018, 13:22:37
Post by: futurecrime on Sat, 27 January 2018, 16:26:38
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 31 January 2018, 20:17:46
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
Post by: macclack on Wed, 31 January 2018, 22:50:59
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 01 February 2018, 02:53:24
The spring samples are finished and on their way!
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
So exciting!
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 01 February 2018, 04:03:28
The spring samples are finished and on their way!It happening! :Joy:
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 01 February 2018, 06:42:46
The spring samples are finished and on their way!Fantastic news! Very happy to hear it.
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 03 February 2018, 22:09:32
I just upgraded a few orders to single digit serials - just a reminder that this is an option if you want to support the project a little more (help cover the cost overruns) and get your keyboard a couple months earlier. We've passed over 1,000 keyboards and I'll be doing final QC checks on each of them one by one before they ship!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/
Here are the remaining serial numbers:
- Classic Case F77 – sold out
- Classic Case F62 – 2,3,4,6,8
- Compact F77 – 2,3,4,6,7,9
- Compact F62 – 2 through 9 inclusive
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 03 February 2018, 23:07:06
I have finished the project web site redesign - please check it out and let me know if there are any issues or bugs. http://www.ModelFKeyboards.com
I just upgraded a few orders to single digit serials - just a reminder that this is an option if you want to support the project a little more (help cover the cost overruns) and get your keyboard a couple months earlier. We've passed over 1,000 keyboards and I'll be doing final QC checks on each of them one by one before they ship!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/
Here are the remaining serial numbers:
- Classic Case F77 – sold out
- Classic Case F62 – 2,3,4,6,8
- Compact F77 – 2,3,4,6,7,9
- Compact F62 – 2 through 9 inclusive
update looks great!
Post by: zacheadams on Tue, 06 February 2018, 08:49:34
I have finished the project web site redesign - please check it out and let me know if there are any issues or bugs. http://www.ModelFKeyboards.com
I just upgraded a few orders to single digit serials - just a reminder that this is an option if you want to support the project a little more (help cover the cost overruns) and get your keyboard a couple months earlier. We've passed over 1,000 keyboards and I'll be doing final QC checks on each of them one by one before they ship!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/
Here are the remaining serial numbers:
- Classic Case F77 – sold out
- Classic Case F62 – 2,3,4,6,8
- Compact F77 – 2,3,4,6,7,9
- Compact F62 – 2 through 9 inclusive
Sent a PM about serials + address change.
Post by: tron on Tue, 06 February 2018, 11:01:18
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Tue, 06 February 2018, 13:44:27
Do you guys recommend getting an extra sheet of pre-cut foam? @Ellipse Are you using the same type of crumbly foam that IBM used or does the new foam have archival properties?
If you bought extra foam with the keyboard, wouldn't it deteriorate in storage just as quickly as the foam in the keyboard?
For whatever its worth, the XT keyboard that I got off eBay not too long ago has its original foam and is doing Just Fine.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 06 February 2018, 16:37:01
Poke it with your finger, I DARE you.Do you guys recommend getting an extra sheet of pre-cut foam? @Ellipse Are you using the same type of crumbly foam that IBM used or does the new foam have archival properties?
If you bought extra foam with the keyboard, wouldn't it deteriorate in storage just as quickly as the foam in the keyboard?
For whatever its worth, the XT keyboard that I got off eBay not too long ago has its original foam and is doing Just Fine.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 06 February 2018, 20:47:42
The main deterioration of the non-crumbly foam is loss of elasticity or springiness while the foam is compressed for a long time inside the keyboard. A non-compressed spare foam well-stored will help your Model F Keyboard to be at its best a couple decades from now.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 07 February 2018, 23:20:24
Please check out the Popular Mechanics March 2018 print issue and take a look at the article “The Hunt for the Modern Model F”! I can't seem to find the article online just yet - the print issue was just released.
This one's different from the other great Model F article on the Popular Mechanics web site over the summer.
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 08 February 2018, 16:06:56
I hope to meet some of you at the NJ Keyboard Meetup on Saturday!
Please check out the Popular Mechanics March 2018 print issue and take a look at the article “The Hunt for the Modern Model F”! I can't seem to find the article online just yet - the print issue was just released.
This one's different from the other great Model F article on the Popular Mechanics web site over the summer.
Someone posted scans of the article in a discord I'm in. Great read!
Post by: zacheadams on Thu, 08 February 2018, 21:04:08
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 09 February 2018, 16:24:20
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 09 February 2018, 17:11:34
I hope to meet some of you at the NJ Keyboard Meetup on Saturday!
Please check out the Popular Mechanics March 2018 print issue and take a look at the article “The Hunt for the Modern Model F”! I can't seem to find the article online just yet - the print issue was just released.
This one's different from the other great Model F article on the Popular Mechanics web site over the summer.
Someone posted scans of the article in a discord I'm in. Great read!
No links shared here? :(
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 10 February 2018, 10:05:57
Thanks !!! Have a great weekend !!!!
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 10:19:16
I‘d love to see photos of today‘s NJ meetup. Would be great, if someone could post links or pictures.
Thanks !!! Have a great weekend !!!!
I'd like to hear how does it sound! :)
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 10 February 2018, 10:27:47
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:27:37
[attachimg=1]
If this is not possible, I likely will go for a layout like this one:
[attachimg=2]
The right Cmd, Alt, Fn, and Shift keys can be toggled with the Nav Lock key. With it set, they become Navigation keys (comparable to a Num Lock key would work for the Num pad). Using the Fn key on the left will allow another layer for Page Up, Page Down, Home and End at those keys, as well as the del key over Backspace and Esc to the left.
If the Nav Lock is not toggled, the right Fn key will act at another layer but working exactly like the left Fn with the exception of Page Down over itself, obviously.
Wanted to hear your thoughts on it.
Post by: consolation on Sat, 10 February 2018, 21:33:22
No links shared here? :(
Your wish is my command. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ifl1b32xtvmxbbo/POPMECH0318.pdf) Article from Pop Mechanic 201803
Post by: atectatifern on Sun, 11 February 2018, 00:17:30
Your wish is my command. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ifl1b32xtvmxbbo/POPMECH0318.pdf) Article from Pop Mechanic 201803Thanks!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 11 February 2018, 10:53:54
To hear how the keyboards sound please check out the YouTube videos I posted: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sun, 11 February 2018, 16:35:07
No links shared here? :(
Your wish is my command. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ifl1b32xtvmxbbo/POPMECH0318.pdf) Article from Pop Mechanic 201803
Thanks much! :)
Post by: Lagomorph on Tue, 13 February 2018, 04:57:39
From the Deskthority thread (https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046-2880.html) :
(https://i.imgur.com/qGPVTZn.jpg)
From the Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7x3kba/my_pics_from_the_nj_meetup_this_past_weekend/):
(https://i.imgur.com/eZcivbL.jpg)
:thumb:
Post by: joey on Tue, 13 February 2018, 06:03:54
Post by: vewy_nice on Tue, 13 February 2018, 06:11:41
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 13 February 2018, 07:13:00
I ordered the full variation :)
- Apple/Mac Command key Options (4 keys)
- Industrial SSK Keys (12 keys in blue)
- HHKB (6 keys)
Post by: stoic-lemon on Fri, 16 February 2018, 02:10:53
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 16 February 2018, 03:17:33
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
Post by: sixdeuces on Fri, 16 February 2018, 07:40:21
What colour is that brownish one in the middle of the second pic there?
I believe that's industrial gray.
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 16 February 2018, 08:06:16
- Black
Standard Beige
Industrial Grey
Post by: SixtyLife on Fri, 16 February 2018, 08:18:20
Top to bottom
- Black
Standard Beige
Industrial Grey
its top to bottom (ignoring the compact f62 on the right):
Black
Industrial Grey
Cerakote (H152Q)
the bottom one is a restored og kish that was being compared against ellipse's f62
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 16 February 2018, 08:26:54
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat...
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 16 February 2018, 09:43:36
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat...
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
Post by: Petch on Fri, 16 February 2018, 09:54:02
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat...
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
Post by: Jampu on Fri, 16 February 2018, 16:47:57
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Post by: tron on Mon, 19 February 2018, 19:30:33
Post by: Petch on Tue, 20 February 2018, 03:06:54
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to me
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 20 February 2018, 03:15:09
I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
Post by: Petch on Tue, 20 February 2018, 03:21:09
I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 20 February 2018, 03:39:10
I understood that the internal boarder was referencing this part of the case[attach=1]. Not an angled external case.I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does
Post by: Jampu on Tue, 20 February 2018, 20:50:04
I understood that the internal boarder was referencing this part of the case (Attachment Link) . Not an angled external case.I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does
Exactly that - once the case is assembled that curve is in contact along the full depth of the top plate. I'm not sure there exists a BS board without a similar curve in the case.
All this said, curved plates should not be that hard to make if you can find a metal shop with a small rolling machine, or maybe even just a sheet metal brake.
Post by: vewy_nice on Wed, 21 February 2018, 07:37:39
@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?
The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.
I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment.
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?
Post by: tron on Wed, 21 February 2018, 10:28:36
Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan ;)@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?
The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.
I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment.
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?
Thanks but I would like to hear Ellipse chime in on this. The work to design the capsense pcb would be minimal based off of emdudes work and the controller is already available. The switch plate, case and bottom pan are really simple in design. The only issue I see is the cost for injection molds for the switch housing, switch stem and caps. Yes, this would be expensive but it could be done if enough people are willing to purchase.
Not to long ago I would have thought a model f reproduction was crazy and too expensive and yet here we are on the verge of launching the dream. Ellipse has a large customer base and a lot of press built up over the model f reproduction units. Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 21 February 2018, 11:15:56
Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan ;)@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?
The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.
I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment.
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?
Thanks but I would like to hear Ellipse chime in on this. The work to design the capsense pcb would be minimal based off of emdudes work and the controller is already available. The switch plate, case and bottom pan are really simple in design. The only issue I see is the cost for injection molds for the switch housing, switch stem and caps. Yes, this would be expensive but it could be done if enough people are willing to purchase.
Not to long ago I would have thought a model f reproduction was crazy and too expensive and yet here we are on the verge of launching the dream. Ellipse has a large customer base and a lot of press built up over the model f reproduction units. Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
depends on if he wants to put in the work or not
and it would be a TON of work, i mean just look at this one
he's just one guy, don't forget
Post by: vewy_nice on Thu, 22 February 2018, 12:59:09
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 22 February 2018, 13:45:42
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Post by: tron on Thu, 22 February 2018, 14:09:11
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 22 February 2018, 15:17:30
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
that's why old machine tools are so popular
if it's got like 3 moving parts, easy to replace one if it breaks
Post by: consolation on Sun, 25 February 2018, 17:51:40
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
You still need to get the materials and tolerances just right if you're going to do anything more than a one off. You can't realistically hand fit more than one keyboard's switches... Each component has to be precise enough to be interchangeable and have enough slop so that they work within the range of tolerances of other parts.
This takes absolutes ages to work out for each individual part, you need to know more than just the dimensions; it's definitely not the case of just doing a 3D scan and sending it off to be made.
If you read how much problems ellipse had sourcing the springs, sorting out the fly plate and beam AND another spring would be a total nightmare. Remember buckling springs are the "simplified" switches - there's definitely more than 3 parts in beam springs.
Plus, iirc they use a totally different mount for caps, so you'd need to make moulds for every single keycap! I seem to remember that each cost about 500$ to make, correct me if I'm wrong.
The, upfront, investment in money and time would be huge. You'd need a lot of buyers to break even, before you even get into profit and getting paid for your time and effort.
Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer... wish it wasn't the case.
Post by: tron on Mon, 26 February 2018, 11:03:54
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
You still need to get the materials and tolerances just right if you're going to do anything more than a one off. You can't realistically hand fit more than one keyboards switches... Each component has to be precise enough to be interchangeable and have enough slop so that they work within the range of tolerances of other parts.
This takes absolutes ages to work out for each individual part, you need to know more than just the dimensions; it's definitely not the case of just doing a 3D scan and sending it off to be made.
If you read how much problems ellipse had sourcing the springs, sorting out the fly plate and beam AND another spring would be a total nightmare. Remember buckling springs are the "simplified" switches - there's definitely more than 3 parts in beam springs.
Plus, iirc they use a totally different mount for caps, so you'd need to make moulds for every single keycap! I seem to remember that each cost about 500$ to make, correct me if I'm wrong.
The, upfront, investment in money and time would be huge. You'd need a lot of buyers to break even, before you even get into profit and getting paid for your time and effort.
Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer... wish it wasn't the case.
I totally agree. It would be expensive and risky. Perhaps a Cherry mount could be used so caps like MT3 or SA can substitute. The height and angle of the mount on the bottom tray/pan could be adjusted to accommodate the sculpting change and make the cost more practical.
Oh well, maybe one day there will be enough beam spring enthusiasts to justify the project. IMO if the project ever comes into fruition it could totally disrupt the mechanical keyboard market because the switches are just so much better than current offerings. Most people that complain about beam springs point out the case height and angle. A modern low profile case is totally possible because the inner case has a lot of wasted space and is lifted up quite a bit on the bottom pan mount.
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 26 February 2018, 11:28:38
Post by: Techno Trousers on Mon, 26 February 2018, 14:40:14
It seems to me the royal "we" should be able to come up with a new key switch that replicates the mechanism and thus feel of beamspring, but allows it to be durable and incorporated into modern form factors. Of course that would mean it wouldn't be an Ellipse-type reproduction at all, would it?
Post by: tron on Mon, 26 February 2018, 15:28:03
I don't know how exactly the Selectric key switch mechanism worked, but I've read that it's incredibly complex and prone to failure, needing a lot of regular servicing. Beamspring switches were prone to dust, and the covering to mitigate that didn't hold up to the test of time. Remember, sometimes replacement versions aren't ONLY about cost savings. I still think Model F was the peak of IBM keyboard technology, balancing feel, cost, and longevity, but the single beamspring keychain switch I have does feel sublime.
It seems to me the royal "we" should be able to come up with a new key switch that replicates the mechanism and thus feel of beamspring, but allows it to be durable and incorporated into modern form factors. Of course that would mean it wouldn't be an Ellipse-type reproduction at all, would it?
Regarding the dust issue with beam springs. I don't think it's a big issue even with the contamination shield off. It may need opened up and blown out once a year if that. IBM was probably just thinking that they would rarely or never be opened up by the end user for cleaning and wanted the system to have die hard reliability over many years of use.
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 26 February 2018, 15:29:19
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 February 2018, 21:15:37
The factory is ready to start the dark gray color mixing. It's difficult for me to tell from the keyboard photos. What's a recommended Pantone/RAL value for the dark grey printed keys? Please post your recommendations. I'll also cross post in the other thread.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 28 February 2018, 22:11:43
The key factory has returned from the holiday break and will now start working on the PBT key tolerances. The keys need to be a little smaller coming out of the mold so they need to adjust and test the molds. They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.
The factory is ready to start the dark gray color mixing. It's difficult for me to tell from the keyboard photos. What's a recommended Pantone/RAL value for the dark grey printed keys? Please post your recommendations. I'll also cross post in the other thread.
Good news. Man, I hope they get the PBT right. Even Signature Plastics seems to still have a hard time with PBT tolerances.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 28 February 2018, 22:20:57
They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.This is critical, especially to match the original IBM pebble and pearl color scheme.
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 02 March 2018, 10:01:06
This site is probably the best source for force - displacement graphs, there are resources for cherry, IBM etc
https://plot.ly/~haata/200
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 02 March 2018, 10:35:29
I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.
It should be virtually identical, with as much care as Ellipse is taking to make sure both the feel and sound are as close to the original keyboards as possible.
Though it would be really nice of Ellipse to send a loaner keyboard to haata so he can measure the reproduction F force curve too.
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:29:30
I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.
This site is probably the best source for force - displacement graphs, there are resources for cherry, IBM etc
https://plot.ly/~haata/200
(Attachment Link)
it's the same
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 26 March 2018, 01:59:24
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 March 2018, 23:15:10
After that the keys will need to be dye sublimated. The sample keys from the new factory successfully accepted dye sublimation on their key tops but the dye sublimation techniques to reduce bleeding and ensure deep black text are still being worked on. As noted in the February update the factory got the key top texture perfect their first try!
Sorry there has not been much to update the first few weeks back into production this month. The factory is still at work on the project.
The first new production parts will be shipping this week - those who ordered only F122 or F107 foam! If you need your foam early and would like separate shipping please let me know.
The ultra compact cases and inner assembly parts are still in production. Some unfinished F77 ultra compact case tops are in the photo below.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: smt on Tue, 27 March 2018, 16:31:23
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 27 March 2018, 16:44:56
Key Success! The key factory told me they have successfully corrected the key molds and showed me a video of the new keys and barrels working smoothly! I will of course evaluate the samples when they arrive in a couple weeks to make sure all tolerances are met. Below is a photo from one of the key molds. Once the PBT material, tolerances, and colors are approved then key production will start.
After that the keys will need to be dye sublimated. The sample keys from the new factory successfully accepted dye sublimation on their key tops but the dye sublimation techniques to reduce bleeding and ensure deep black text are still being worked on. As noted in the February update the factory got the key top texture perfect their first try!
Sorry there has not been much to update the first few weeks back into production this month. The factory is still at work on the project.
The first new production parts will be shipping this week - those who ordered only F122 or F107 foam! If you need your foam early and would like separate shipping please let me know.
The ultra compact cases and inner assembly parts are still in production. Some unfinished F77 ultra compact case tops are in the photo below.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Great news!
Thanks for the update.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 27 March 2018, 20:07:30
If you want F107 or F122 foam please order soon. I have only 4 left of the F122/F107 foam and that will be it for early shipping (the rest will ship later this year).
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 29 March 2018, 14:09:12
Today I packed the first Brand New Model F production parts for shipment! F107 and F122 foam are going out tomorrow.
If you want F107 or F122 foam please order soon. I have only 4 left of the F122/F107 foam and that will be it for early shipping (the rest will ship later this year).
No model F AT?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 March 2018, 15:59:56
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sat, 31 March 2018, 02:26:33
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sat, 31 March 2018, 17:59:13
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 31 March 2018, 18:07:00
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sun, 01 April 2018, 10:50:17
Feel free to email or PM me with your order number and new address.
Email sent. Thanks.
Post by: FakeAnimeBoy on Mon, 02 April 2018, 12:37:30
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 02 April 2018, 14:24:20
I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Mon, 02 April 2018, 20:28:08
I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open :))
Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 04 April 2018, 18:26:03
Unfortunately the second mold with the other keys needs some more adjustment.
The black PBT from the new production keys is of excellent quality and texture; I do not see circular areas of excessive shine on the tops characteristic of the original black keys.
The F107/F122 foam from this batch has all sold out (unless the forum member I just reached out to decides they do not want the foam early - then there will be one left) but more will be on the way in a month or so.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 04 April 2018, 20:11:52
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 04 April 2018, 20:15:15
Doesn't adjustment mean "remachine" the mold? And these things are tens of thousands of dollars, and we've had how many "adjusted"? How is that possible?
Adjusting doesn't mean a new mold. You can weld more metal in or machine more metal out. Plus, not every mold is 5 figures, I got a quote for a 65% keyboard case in the US, and it came in around $4k USD.
If Ellipse is going for the tight tolerances mentioned above, a lot of adjusting will need to be done.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 04 April 2018, 20:25:07
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 04 April 2018, 20:44:56
It's kind of surprising they can't 3D print these molds yet. There's already a process for 3D printing aluminum.
My understanding is that machining a block is much cheaper than 3D printing.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 04 April 2018, 21:06:04
Key molds note: Much of the expense of mold production is getting the molds to produce within-spec parts. The adjustments preproduction and during production to ensure within-spec parts are typically included in the mold cost and are not extra. These key molds are complex and high cost partially due to the tight tolerances and intricate machining required within each key.
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 04 April 2018, 22:44:56
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!
So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 04 April 2018, 23:30:29
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!
So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.
The springs will be Japanese even though he's changing the material being used. It's the same factory.
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 04 April 2018, 23:54:33
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!
So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.
The springs will be Japanese even though he's changing the material being used. It's the same factory.
Yes, but not the quieter ones.
Post by: Kevadu on Thu, 05 April 2018, 01:27:07
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used! They lacked the full volume Model F resonance after a pressed key is released.
Is this really a problem? I mean I love the typing feel of my Model F but I certainly wouldn't complain if it was a bit quieter. I don't think we're talking about making it non-clicky or something here...
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 05 April 2018, 06:36:17
Post by: vewy_nice on Thu, 05 April 2018, 09:51:40
I'd buy a set for my A/T, depending on HOW quiet they are.
You do whatever you want for production, but that's definitely an interesting discovery.
Do you have any video/sound comparison between OG/"quiet" springs?
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 05 April 2018, 10:48:31
I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.Well stated. He could have deviated tens if not hundreds of different ways. Best to stick to the plan and keep it as close to authentic as possible. If there was a hard cutoff for shipping, sure he would have to use the quieter spring.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 05 April 2018, 11:04:18
Post by: wowremy on Thu, 05 April 2018, 13:25:49
Post by: emenelopee on Thu, 05 April 2018, 13:37:33
I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.Well stated. He could have deviated tens if not hundreds of different ways. Best to stick to the plan and keep it as close to authentic as possible. If there was a hard cutoff for shipping, sure he would have to use the quieter spring.
Perfect is the enemy of the good. At some point this Zeno's paradox needs to get to the end before n = infinity.
does the buy period still end on 4/30?
TBH I'm feeling a little swindled - I thought the buy period ended when I ordered mine, I didn't realise it reset each month: while the exact formula of the spring material gets lab-tested and recreated to 6 decimal places, years have passed and orders are still being taken with no end in sight.
Post by: a_ak57 on Thu, 05 April 2018, 14:46:30
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 05 April 2018, 14:50:09
I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.
Well said. Thanks.
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
People like drama, I guess.
Post by: emenelopee on Thu, 05 April 2018, 15:16:12
Post by: ricyuyc on Thu, 05 April 2018, 17:56:06
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 05 April 2018, 21:58:05
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 06 April 2018, 12:45:47
TBH I'm feeling a little swindled - I thought the buy period ended when I ordered mine, I didn't realise it reset each month: while the exact formula of the spring material gets lab-tested and recreated to 6 decimal places, years have passed and orders are still being taken with no end in sight.
No Kidding
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
Sunk cost/time fallacy. Or maybe not fallacy in this case, who knows. IDK. Don't look at me.
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 06 April 2018, 21:03:29
Sunk cost/time fallacy. Or maybe not fallacy in this case, who knows. IDK. Don't look at me.
It's simple:
FOMO
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Sun, 08 April 2018, 07:14:27
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
People like drama, I guess.
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back. I am being patient, for now. I haven't contacted any lawyer yet. But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 08 April 2018, 12:10:48
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
People like drama, I guess.
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
Well that might be the biggest red flag I've seen so far.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 08 April 2018, 14:44:38
Post by: emenelopee on Sun, 08 April 2018, 14:57:04
These things can take a long time. They just do.
I'm with you on this, but my gripe is the countdown which resets every month. If it's ongoing, take down the counter and arbitrary non-existent deadline. At best it's misleading; at worst it's downright dishonest, a trick intended to ensnare buyers into thinking it's now or never.
I think transparency is a reasonable request, and currently this doesn't feel transparent.
Post by: Vigrith on Sun, 08 April 2018, 15:29:45
I haven't contacted any lawyer yet.
I'm not (yet) part of this buy but this is stunning phenomenon to me. In America of all places, if you're: 1. hiring a good lawyer for an amount of money that's worth you going through the trouble and/or 2. actually hiring that proper professional over $400 for the sake of morality and everyone else involved then you should probably ask for a medal or a reward of sorts afterwards. Absolutely not calling you or anyone else out here but I'd imagine making empty threats over something you appear to deem unacceptable is only going to aggravate the situation rather than have any sort of positive effect on it (or anyone else involved).
Post by: Lagomorph on Sun, 08 April 2018, 16:47:23
Quote
Project notes/terms and conditions/risks
Quote
I ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.
Quote
Refund/cancellation policy: Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production). All sales are final.
That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.
Post by: Kevadu on Sun, 08 April 2018, 17:51:49
I'm with you on this, but my gripe is the countdown which resets every month. If it's ongoing, take down the counter and arbitrary non-existent deadline. At best it's misleading; at worst it's downright dishonest, a trick intended to ensnare buyers into thinking it's now or never.
Honestly I have to agree with this. I'm still excited for this keyboard but the whole resetting countdown to a fake deadline thing was confusing and unnecessary. Though looking at the site now I don't even see that 'deadline' anymore. Maybe I'm just missing it or maybe the site was changed since I placed my order. I definitely remember it being there before though.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 08 April 2018, 19:28:47
I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :QuoteProject notes/terms and conditions/risksQuoteI ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.QuoteRefund/cancellation policy: Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production). All sales are final.
That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sun, 08 April 2018, 21:04:16
That's a statement that won't hold up in court.I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :QuoteProject notes/terms and conditions/risksQuoteI ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.QuoteRefund/cancellation policy: Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production). All sales are final.
That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
Post by: emenelopee on Sun, 08 April 2018, 23:46:58
Also I guess Judge Judy, she doesn't take any nonsense.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 09 April 2018, 00:12:18
Quote
That's a statement that won't hold up in court.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
Right exactly cause they are there to cover the asses of the corporations/whatever, so they put all their slimy **** in there knowing no one reads it.
"Well sorry your 13 year old spent 2000$ on loot boxes but see the game is rated mature so...and also, like, it's not really gambling..."
You get the idea.
Post by: typischt on Mon, 09 April 2018, 01:02:12
Yeah, well, of course it‘s both ways. I guess you haven‘t been on the other side where you are a small business and you want to protect yourself from douchbag customers.QuoteThat's a statement that won't hold up in court.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
Right exactly cause they are there to cover the asses of the corporations/whatever, so they put all their slimy **** in there knowing no one reads it.
"Well sorry your 13 year old spent 2000$ on loot boxes but see the game is rated mature so...and also, like, it's not really gambling..."
You get the idea.
Not saying anyone here is a douchbag customer, btw, that‘s just reality.
Post by: a_ak57 on Mon, 09 April 2018, 06:20:17
I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.
Post by: futurecrime on Mon, 09 April 2018, 07:31:55
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 09 April 2018, 07:33:31
This discussion is irrelevant anyway considering Ellipse didn't write the 1000 page "we know they won't read this **** just to use our image editor" terms and conditions people have legitimate gripes with anyway. If you're getting into a GB where you're spending hundreds of dollars and something like order cancellation is important to you and you can't be assed to read a few paragraphs, that's entirely on you.I didn't even notice the countdown thing when i ordered mine last year. Personally I'd assume he set it up when he initially thought everything was just about done and then forgot about it or something. It doesn't seem to serve any actual purpose.
I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.
Post by: raymogi on Mon, 09 April 2018, 07:53:14
I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open :))
Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).
Same here.
Early bird order back when my son was about to be born. 27 months later and my daughter is about to be born :D
Post by: hansichen on Mon, 09 April 2018, 07:57:00
I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.
The fake countdown (which was already a thing when I joined the community 1,5 years ago) and the fake delivery dates are very sketchy. He still doesn't know where to produce all the part but every month he says that he "hopes to deliver" by some point in time. I personally don't think that it'll be this year. People who read on dt or geekhack may know about that but people who see links on the internet, on reddit or in some articles won't know about that. Imo Ellipse is just lying to potential customers to make them join.
Maybe some people are still confident cause they don't wanna think about a new Ivan or other disasters that can happen, but in the end this "group buy" is very sketchy.
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 09 April 2018, 09:53:45
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 09 April 2018, 11:31:21
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back. I am being patient, for now. I haven't contacted any lawyer yet. But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.
Welcome to crowed funding. With the precidents kickstarter and indie gogo have put forth legally I doubt anyone would have luck.
That said meh we get status updates regularly and it looks good to me. I'll wait patiently.
Post by: Khers on Mon, 09 April 2018, 12:22:28
Post by: SixtyLife on Mon, 09 April 2018, 12:43:27
Similar story here, I bought an F62 as a dissertation gift for myself that would get delivered soon after my defence according to the initial estimate. Here we are, two years after receiving my PhD, still no keyboard. Hey, at least the "early" bird round is still open. Good thing I got my order in early so I secured a slot.I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open :))
Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).
Same here.
Early bird order back when my son was about to be born. 27 months later and my daughter is about to be born :D
Congrats on PhD!
Post by: macclack on Mon, 09 April 2018, 17:10:43
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back. I am being patient, for now. I haven't contacted any lawyer yet. But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.
Welcome to crowed funding. With the precidents kickstarter and indie gogo have put forth legally I doubt anyone would have luck.
That said meh we get status updates regularly and it looks good to me. I'll wait patiently.
After participating in a number of group buys, I've definitely learned patience. I'm a firm believer that perfection can't be rushed, and I think this project is striving for perfection. I'm OK waiting, and I think Ellipse has really good about keeping us updated on this seemingly very complicated process, and I don't get the sense that he's dragging his feet.
In the end, I'd be much more disappointed if corners were cut in order to save time, owning a product that likely provides decades of service. For me, patience in the short-term has a big long-term payoff.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 09 April 2018, 17:49:21
Producing these parts to IBM's tolerances has been a significant challenge for the factories. There have been many iterations of prototypes that I've rejected as out of spec. I had to cancel the agreements with two factories (key molds and springs) as they could not produce parts to spec and the new key mold factory had to start over.
Fortunately the factories have finally succeeded on almost all parts. Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs. The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment. Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.
If the keys prove to be a long bottleneck I will offer the option for those who have ordered to go with Unicomp keys to ship these keyboards out without further delay, for those who do not want the keys from new molds.
This month I had the honor to speak with one of the supervisory engineers of the early 1980s Model F keyboard production! He helpfully offered detailed specifications and production notes on the springs and dye sublimation process - two greatly needed parts of the project. He even remembered the exact PBT material IBM used for the keys! IBM seems to have done the dye sublimation at significant economies of scale with huge machines; I have to see if smaller-scale machines produce the same results or if I have to find a factory to take care of this. Quality control (legend alignment especially) will be the most important part of dye sublimation.
Post by: ljosa on Mon, 09 April 2018, 18:18:17
Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs. The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment. Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.
Thanks for the update, Ellipse! How are the compact cases coming along?
Post by: nsmechkb on Tue, 10 April 2018, 10:03:04
If the keys prove to be a long bottleneck I will offer the option for those who have ordered to go with Unicomp keys to ship these keyboards out without further delay, for those who do not want the keys from new molds.
This is a great idea.
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 12 April 2018, 06:32:19
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-IBM-Model-F-reproduction-keyboards-barrel-Kishsaver-clicky-Model-M/323187364348?hash=item4b3f77d1fc:g:kPUAAOSwD8BZbpQx (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-IBM-Model-F-reproduction-keyboards-barrel-Kishsaver-clicky-Model-M/323187364348?hash=item4b3f77d1fc:g:kPUAAOSwD8BZbpQx)
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 12 April 2018, 07:52:38
Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs. The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment. Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.
Thanks for the update, Ellipse! How are the compact cases coming along?
Update with pics couple pages back
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 April 2018, 20:51:08
Post by: vewy_nice on Thu, 19 April 2018, 13:05:10
Just curious
Glad to hear work is still ongoing, though.
Thanks for the update!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 April 2018, 14:48:29
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Sun, 22 April 2018, 15:18:02
vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs. The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.
lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?
Post by: Atredl on Sun, 22 April 2018, 15:24:20
There would be more cost and complexity if there was more than one sku of spring.vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs. The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.
lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?
Post by: vewy_nice on Mon, 23 April 2018, 09:25:56
But I don't see how there'd be more cost associated with saying:
Hey: Those springs I rejected, yeah those ones, some people want those, could I order a bunch?
I'd expect the springs coming IN the board will be to the strict spec you're working on, but as an add-on kit, like many of the extra keysets you've worked on?
I'm not going to beg, I'll let you do your own thing :)
Post by: emenelopee on Mon, 23 April 2018, 09:36:30
(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Mon, 23 April 2018, 10:54:34
There would be more cost and complexity if there was more than one sku of spring.vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs. The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.
lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?
What I mean is like months, literal months, have been spent making what are effectively custom springs. I'm not even talking about different spring types, but more how can Ellipse be worried about "tooling and logistics" when he literally got a material analysis done to get whatever springs he's going to use made?
And yeah like, just order a bunch of the quieter ones.
Post by: Ramiel on Mon, 23 April 2018, 11:13:35
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Final? I guess not.
I thought that was the final deadline when I joined the GB. Then I realize the deadline changes every month.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 24 April 2018, 12:28:16
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.
Post by: emenelopee on Tue, 24 April 2018, 14:47:01
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.
I'm not worried about it - I'm irritated and borderline concerned by it. The endless nth degree of investigation and orders still being taken makes it look like a good chunk of the $500k has been blown through and more orders are needed to keep this ball rolling. There's a word beginning with "p" that describes a scheme where new investors are needed to pay off returns for existing investors until collapse in a closed system. I hope this is not that.
I'd like some reassurance from Ellipse that enough of the funds already received have been set aside for actual products already pledged, and that new orders are only to allow people to jump on the train. He can mess with the exact formulation of the materials all he wants, so long as it's not all that will come of this endeavour with nothing to show for it at the end other than spec sheets.
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 24 April 2018, 15:11:32
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.
I'm not worried about it - I'm irritated and borderline concerned by it. The endless nth degree of investigation and orders still being taken makes it look like a good chunk of the $500k has been blown through and more orders are needed to keep this ball rolling. There's a word beginning with "p" that describes a scheme where new investors are needed to pay off returns for existing investors until collapse in a closed system. I hope this is not that.
I'd like some reassurance from Ellipse that enough of the funds already received have been set aside for actual products already pledged, and that new orders are only to allow people to jump on the train. He can mess with the exact formulation of the materials all he wants, so long as it's not all that will come of this endeavour with nothing to show for it at the end other than spec sheets.
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
You're not the only one who feels that way.
Post by: Meowsaur on Wed, 25 April 2018, 15:01:55
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
Post by: futurecrime on Wed, 25 April 2018, 15:37:25
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
This. So much this.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 27 April 2018, 07:49:42
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
This. So much this.
100%. I did the same rush to get into this buy two years ago
The moving deadlines prey on people with the fear of missing out.
Post by: nguyenhimself on Fri, 27 April 2018, 08:28:09
Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 27 April 2018, 08:32:24
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 27 April 2018, 09:02:55
I certainly didn't until LONG after I had paid.
Post by: romevi on Fri, 27 April 2018, 09:25:24
Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.
Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.
What's up, mkawa?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 27 April 2018, 09:32:34
Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.
Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.
What's up, mkawa?
Hahaha
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Fri, 27 April 2018, 11:20:45
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
This. So much this.
And everytime it has been mentioned, every single time, not a peep is heard from Ellipse.
Pretty sketchy IMO.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 27 April 2018, 11:56:42
Do you understand why the Model F is praised and why it's reproduction important for this community?
Do you understand why Unicomp key caps are not desirable and why he put so much effort into the caps?
Do you understand why the springs are so important on a BUCKLING SPRING keyboard? even if this was a cheaper Model M reproduction the springs would still need to be perfect--a minor imperfection would make all the efforts on caps, cases, barrels, etc mean NOTHING. I am thrilled so much effort is being spent on them.
If you want a buckling spring keyboard with a usb port, unicomp has been selling them for years, I have a couple and they are passable, the Model M is still in production and ready to ship. You joined the wrong group buy and you were not mislead, you just didn't read into the project you bought into. Never has anyone been mislead on this and never has a time gone by without status.
Post by: Kevadu on Fri, 27 April 2018, 15:57:42
Do you understand why the Model F is praised and why it's reproduction important for this community?
Do you understand why Unicomp key caps are not desirable and why he put so much effort into the caps?
Do you understand why the springs are so important on a BUCKLING SPRING keyboard? even if this was a cheaper Model M reproduction the springs would still need to be perfect--a minor imperfection would make all the efforts on caps, cases, barrels, etc mean NOTHING. I am thrilled so much effort is being spent on them.
Do you understand how any of this is related to the deceptive meaningless rolling deadline? i.e., the thing people were actually complaining about.
Oh right, it isn't.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Fri, 27 April 2018, 16:26:08
Ellipse has been very clear from the beginning that there will be two rounds of manufacturing. This round is still called the "early bird" round. I don't understand where any fear of missing out could have come from, unless it was to get a single digits serial number or something.
I think you have a short memory lad. Early bird was to get your board delivered before the rest of the first round. Originally in April/May 2016....
Key dates:Via: https://www.web.archive.org/web/20160412171546/https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.0
Now through 2/29/2016: Early bird round. Ships in April/May. No extra cost to you versus the regular round.
3/1/2016 through 6/30/2016: Regular round - last chance! Ships in August/September.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 27 April 2018, 17:14:19
I think you have a short memory lad. Early bird was to get your board delivered before the rest of the first round. Originally in April/May 2016....
I understand people are frustrated because dates have slipped A LOT, but it's not going to do anyone any good to spread misinformation. From the first post of this exact thread you're complaining in:
Quote
STILL CAN BE ORDEREDI've been watching this project since the very beginning. I made a choice to wait and see reviews from actual customers of the early bird round before I decided whether to buy during the ordering period of the "regular"/second round. I have never once thought I might miss out on the chance to order.
* Everything. I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last. Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.
Post by: wowremy on Tue, 01 May 2018, 03:51:09
Post by: vewy_nice on Tue, 01 May 2018, 09:05:52
Do you like sleek, heavy, substantial pieces of metal?
Do you like a unique key-feel?
Are you unusually attracted to the "vintage" beige aesthetic?
Do you want an input device that will outlive you?
If you answered yes to any of those, get a model F.
I have 2 original XT's, an AT, one F66 on order with an ultra-compact, and if there's ever that fabled "second round", I'll probably buy both models in the original style case.
Post by: emenelopee on Tue, 01 May 2018, 09:56:04
Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?
In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 01 May 2018, 21:23:34
It's not one time only. There will be a short second round that will run sometime after the first round keyboards are delivered. But after that Ellipse has said there will be no more manufacturing runs.Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?
In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.
Post by: emenelopee on Tue, 01 May 2018, 23:48:12
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?
In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.
Ellipse, please cut this **** out - either have a real deadline or remove it entirely.
(https://i.imgur.com/JTZPvW8.jpg)
This point has come up many times and I haven't seen it addressed. We can handle uncertainty if done honestly, but your auto-moving deadline is downright misleading and I'm calling shenanigans.
Post by: romevi on Tue, 01 May 2018, 23:54:04
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 02 May 2018, 00:07:13
This GB started the year I got serious about mechanical keyboards. I was hesitant then until I saw reviews, and I still am.
i respect that
reviews are key to a good product
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 02 May 2018, 17:40:50
Update on keys: the factory tells me they have finished adjusting the key molds and the new key samples will be ready next week! The factory has also prepared the molds to use the original PBT material IBM used on their Model F keyboards, the material that I learned from the IBM engineer (different PBT shinkage rate)! They are still working on color matching the PBT to an original XT key set I mailed them last year.
Update on springs: Half the new spring samples have been completed! Hoping for the remaining 4 variants to be done by the end of this week or next week, and then they will all be mailed to me for evaluation.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Regarding the project timeline: Fortunately the major production problems from last year were resolved by the factories and most parts are waiting in storage for assembly. Hoping for springs and keys to finish up this month. Assembly can start once the springs finish production.
The project's goal from the beginning is to produce new Model F keyboards to IBM's quality standards. I have chosen to delay the tentative early bird and final round timelines rather than compromise on quality or aesthetic and material authenticity of parts to meet a deadline.
The timeline has been delayed significantly due to factory production quality control problems that have since been resolved save the keys and springs, detailed on the web site updates blog page. I understand that some of you disagree with the philosophy and management of the project and setting of (in hindsight) too optimistic, changing deadlines. You are right that for many projects, there should be a deadline and if there is one it should not change.
Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning. The timelines and deadlines are based on my and the factory's current estimations. I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward. Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders. The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories. The factories have now met these standards in all but the remaining two parts (springs and keys) and have been extremely patient and accommodating despite this project being one of their smallest and probably most time consuming.
As noted before, to reduce the possibility of additional delay, I am willing to send out those orders without keys and with blank keys (or even use Unicomp keys, for those requesting the option) in the event the keys become a significant and sole bottleneck to the project and some people want earlier delivery.
We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.
Post by: xondat on Wed, 02 May 2018, 17:45:36
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.
Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day :thumb:
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 02 May 2018, 19:24:42
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 02 May 2018, 20:53:50
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.
Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day :thumb:
agree
really good insight
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 02 May 2018, 21:41:07
A mini update on keys, springs, and the timeline concerns:Thank you for your insight. I cannot wait to try a high-quality, refined product onto which you've poured your valuable time, knowledge, and effort. Thanks for your diligence, Ellipse.
Update on keys: the factory tells me they have finished adjusting the key molds and the new key samples will be ready next week! The factory has also prepared the molds to use the original PBT material IBM used on their Model F keyboards, the material that I learned from the IBM engineer (different PBT shinkage rate)! They are still working on color matching the PBT to an original XT key set I mailed them last year.
Update on springs: Half the new spring samples have been completed! Hoping for the remaining 4 variants to be done by the end of this week or next week, and then they will all be mailed to me for evaluation.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Regarding the project timeline: Fortunately the major production problems from last year were resolved by the factories and most parts are waiting in storage for assembly. Hoping for springs and keys to finish up this month. Assembly can start once the springs finish production.
The project's goal from the beginning is to produce new Model F keyboards to IBM's quality standards. I have chosen to delay the tentative early bird and final round timelines rather than compromise on quality or aesthetic and material authenticity of parts to meet a deadline.
The timeline has been delayed significantly due to factory production quality control problems that have since been resolved save the keys and springs, detailed on the web site updates blog page. I understand that some of you disagree with the philosophy and management of the project and setting of (in hindsight) too optimistic, changing deadlines. You are right that for many projects, there should be a deadline and if there is one it should not change.
Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning. The timelines and deadlines are based on my and the factory's current estimations. I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward. Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders. The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories. The factories have now met these standards in all but the remaining two parts (springs and keys) and have been extremely patient and accommodating despite this project being one of their smallest and probably most time consuming.
As noted before, to reduce the possibility of additional delay, I am willing to send out those orders without keys and with blank keys (or even use Unicomp keys, for those requesting the option) in the event the keys become a significant and sole bottleneck to the project and some people want earlier delivery.
We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.
Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
Post by: emenelopee on Wed, 02 May 2018, 22:41:12
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.
Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day :thumb:
agree
really good insight
This is not a new paradigm. It's neat, but certainly not insight, and those of us who work in design have heard it many times. And there is a difference between "it's ready when it's ready", the third pillar of this design triangle to "it'll be ready next month, best get your order in, not wait, next month, best get your order in, no wait ...". It's pithy, but not at all my point. No-one, at least not me, is disputing the "it's ready when it's ready". Of course great results take time and resources. I'm talking about the communication and signalling of apparent urgency with what looks like a hard date and a button that says "please have your orders in by then!". Do you not see or hear anyone saying "I thought it was now or never, so I ordered on that assumption"? Urgency implies scarcity, and the natural proclivity of humans to fear missing out, rash decisions are made.
I'm certain you have little to no control over the delays, and I'm not saying you're not putting effort into getting all this done, but the way you present this faux scarcity is flying awfully close to bait and switch.
You know full well next month's deadline will be extended again - stop deceiving people into feeling they're this close to missing out unless they act now. It's a dirty trick. Continue what you're doing, and get the results you have promised, but I ask you, pretty please, take down that deadline unless you know it's a real deadline that you know you can honour.
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 03 May 2018, 00:36:07
He can write something like: "all parts produced except caps and springs, get your order in before boards are sold out."
That would also indicate that you should order now but it's not sketchy like the current dates.
Post by: user 18 on Thu, 03 May 2018, 01:21:52
As someone who's followed this project from the start, I've seen the deadline change so many times that it's lost its meaning to me. I strongly dislike placing orders on arbitrary or uncertain deadlines, since I don't want to have my money tied up indefinitely during the design process. As we get apparently closer to the true deadline though, there are times when I worry about missing that deadline, since I never know when the real one will be.
Again, this is not a judgement on the amount of time the project has taken. I understand the scale of the undertaking, and the amount of time and effort that has had to go into it. I agree that it's been worth the time to ensure that the final product will be both affordable and high quality. I'm sure many others would agree as well.
I agree that it doesn't make sense to close the first round of orders early arbitrarily. What I object to (and what I believe others object to as well) is having a seemingly-arbitrary deadline which moves every month by a month -- and this has been going on more than a year now. I would strongly prefer, rather than having a continually-moving deadline, to just say that the first round of orders will remain open until the factory has met specifications on all components of the project, and then for a certain number of days after that. The sense I get from the way the deadline has been moving so far is that the project will be ready when it's ready, and at that time, you'll continue taking orders until the end of the month. If that's the case, just say that, and let us know when everything is actually ready.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 03 May 2018, 09:44:14
I still am holding off on ordering one and will wait until the first, non-early-bird round, but the F77 has been on top of my list since the beginning.
I guess it's good that you keep pushing the deadlines rather than set the deadlines, have them come and go, and have people pissed off. From what I understand, people can request refunds at any time--unlike other GBs where the money is taken, problems arise, and then it's just more headache on the organizer when people want to fall off.
(I keep remembering that Notch ordered one and wonder if he has forgotten all about this!)
Are you handling all of this yourself, Ellipse? I haven't really kept up on this since...2015? Whatever was the first year this GB started.
I've had about three Model Ms before (a Unicomp, an SSK, and a Wheelwriter), and recently tried a Model F for the first time last month. Typing on it was way better than Model Ms--a different experience, almost. So after that I'm even more eager to get my own.
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 03 May 2018, 11:20:47
Are you handling all of this yourself, Ellipse? I haven't really kept up on this since...2015? Whatever was the first year this GB started.
I've been wondering about this myself. Hopefully there's a good plan for managing the actual packing and shipping part once the completed kits start arriving, as for one person + lots of complex varied orders, it's going to be a nightmare. The kind of ordeal that has in the past many times caused people to go MIA for a while.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 03 May 2018, 11:48:52
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 03 May 2018, 13:45:13
I once commented that the shipping process would take a long time with all of these orders, probably adding at least a few months even after production is complete. Ellipse's response seemed to imply he would be handling it alone. Someone once asked if he had a backup plan in case he died, and he said he didn't (Odd question, I know).
My comments are not making or implying any judgments about the project or Ellipse. I'm just reporting what I remember reading so that others can know since the thread is rather long.
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 03 May 2018, 16:28:12
I once commented that the shipping process would take a long time with all of these orders, probably adding at least a few months even after production is complete. Ellipse's response seemed to imply he would be handling it alone. Someone once asked if he had a backup plan in case he died, and he said he didn't (Odd question, I know).
In this case I highly recommend to Ellipse that he should seek to arrange help in advance, because he's going to be overwhelmed with fulfillment, causing further delays and possibly (probably) a severe burnout. I'm basing this opinion on having observed lots and lots of group buys on geekhack since I joined the site.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 03 May 2018, 17:17:45
Post by: Acereconkeys on Thu, 03 May 2018, 18:59:57
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 03 May 2018, 21:42:31
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
That's good to hear. Sorry if I spread any misinformation; I tried to report only what I'd read, but I may have missed some details.
Thank you for the recent updates btw.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 03 May 2018, 22:30:59
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
Post by: Acereconkeys on Thu, 03 May 2018, 23:01:05
Nope.Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
any idea how long I have to order?
Post by: Atredl on Fri, 04 May 2018, 06:05:13
We don’t know when early bird will end but after it does there will be a 1-2 month regular buying period. No need to rush the order since there will be plenty of heads up before this ends.Nope.Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
any idea how long I have to order?
Post by: Acereconkeys on Fri, 04 May 2018, 14:22:03
...We don’t know when early bird will end but after it does there will be a 1-2 month regular buying period. No need to rush the order since there will be plenty of heads up before this ends.
any idea how long I have to order?
That's all the information I was looking for thank you. The way he's been continuing pushing the "deadline" for "early bird" is quite confusing.
Post by: Pete on Sun, 06 May 2018, 04:45:06
A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.Please tell me that it is chyros (https://www.youtube.com/user/Chyrosran22).
-- Nathan
The project was briefly mentioned at the end of one of his videos recently.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Meowsaur on Sun, 06 May 2018, 19:36:23
Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning.
Nobody has suggested that the first round be closed immediately, or that the round be closed without warning.
The suggestion was that either;
a) Once everything is up to specification and the factories are ready to ship, put on the one-month deadline.
b) Put on a realistic deadline (ie. 2-3 months instead of every month).
The problem with the monthly-moving-deadlines, at this stage, is two fold:
- New buyers will rush to get in on the project*
- New buyers will delay their purchase, on the assumption that the monthly deadline will continue to be pushed forward.
* .. as unless you've been following the project, or thoroughly read through the website, it's not immediately obvious that it's the early-bird round.
This opens up a third (and probably the simplest) option for my intial point:
c) Make it clear, at a glance, that this is only the early-bird round.
For example, something like this:
[attachimg=1]
This avoids the concern that some have pointed out, that this is only made clear "in the small print".
I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward. Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders. The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.
Production delays are not an issue.
Speaking mainly for myself here, but I'm sure the vast majority of individuals who have invested in the GB understand why the delays have happened.
The comments made regarding the moving deadlines are unrelated to this point.
We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.
We really do appreciate all your hard work on this; no disrespect intended with the concerns above.
Post by: ag36 on Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:49:10
Quote
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Know Any Marketing/Kickstarter Experts? Planned Model F Kickstarter/Indiegogo Campaign!
May 10, 2018
In the final round’s month or two of accepting orders for the Brand New Model F Keyboards project (after early bird keyboards are shipped of course), I am still planning on a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign and could use any advice from those involved with major tech hardware campaigns in the past. I have been reading up on this, and thankfully a couple experts have already reached out and have been a great help.
I think the additional venue will help the factory to make as many new Model F keyboards as possible and open the project up to those more comfortable working through the Kickstarter/Indiegogo sites.
I personally think Indiegogo might has sort negative image to some people including me(well, kickstarter is also only as legitimate as the vendor is), maybe you should make a poll to check people's interest?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:07:18
Keys - new samples arrived, and the factory has succeeded in fixing almost all of the out of tolerance keys! They just need to finish working on the 2U and wider keys which are not yet within tolerance.
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for? Below are photos of the dark grey keys on the left and some black keys on the right for comparison.
The factory sent the first Industrial SSK blue color sample. They are close but not yet a match.
Springs-the factory rejected the second group of samples they were working on due to poor quality material. They will source the spring material from another supplier and remake the remaining springs this month.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: xondat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:11:29
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:30:23
IBM noob here, which is the blue sample?
The blue one.
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:31:23
:DIBM noob here, which is the blue sample?
The blue one.
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 12 May 2018, 02:17:49
IBM noob here, which is the blue sample?
The blue one.
hot take
Post by: ag36 on Sat, 12 May 2018, 03:38:27
Post by: romevi on Sat, 12 May 2018, 08:55:11
Wow, beautiful. The one withe F1 print is original right?
More than likely since the Industrial SSK's F1 key has it on the side.
(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keychatter_2015-02-21_19-51-26.jpg)
Post by: Ramiel on Sat, 12 May 2018, 16:43:19
Springs-the factory rejected the second group of samples they were working on due to poor quality material. They will source the spring material from another supplier and remake the remaining springs this month.
So they have made 4 variants of springs and didn't make the remaining 4 variants. Is that correct?
Maybe they should send you whatever have been done for evaluation first to speed up the whole process.
Post by: Lagomorph on Tue, 15 May 2018, 05:41:33
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:08:01
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.
Post by: xondat on Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:10:21
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.
Isn't that not the point though? Probably the wrong buy to be in if you want it ASAP
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:16:24
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.
Isn't that not the point though? Probably the wrong buy to be in if you want it ASAP
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.
Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"
Post by: xondat on Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:20:41
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.
Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"
Sorry, didn't see your username. :-X I guess some are more impatient than others, but it's clear what the **** is going on here.
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 15 May 2018, 12:40:13
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I also believe the dark grey needs to be lighter. I have attached how a legend would look with 80% grey and I'd rather have it 65%.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: a_ak57 on Wed, 16 May 2018, 10:06:51
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 16 May 2018, 10:44:16
I feel like if you haven't had an aneurysm after stressing out so much over the course of two years, you'll probably be fine waiting longer for something that is actually right.
Ya'll need to condescend more. Your high-horses are only reaching the stratosphere. Moon's the limit, boys.
Post by: sixdeuces on Thu, 17 May 2018, 08:29:50
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.
Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"
You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. It's on the record, loud and clear. Either it will be followed or ignored, but either way there's no need to keep reiterating.
For me—and, I think, a lot of others here—the whole point of the project is the perfection. I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:00:08
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:01:41
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:08:41
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:12:57
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:30:52
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
and yet here you are
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:48:31
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.Condescension aside...
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
We get it, you have complaints. We’ve heard them as many times as you’ve cared to type them. Some of us just happen to disagree despite what you “know for a fact” and your “million percent certainty”. Though I don’t know where you’re basing that certainty since you’ve said you haven’t used a Model F, you haven’t used Ellipse’s new Model F, and you don’t know us.
Post by: emenelopee on Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:49:46
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
To add, and this is by far my biggest gripe, the fake countdown right now, once again, makes it look like its done at the end of this month. We were all naïve, and new joiners are likely similarly naive thinking it's this close, based on misleading info. Unless anyone interested reads two years of history and each spinoff discussion, claiming "you knew what you were getting into" is spurious. It can be claimed all the information is there, somewhere, to make an informed decision, but I argue obfuscated and opaque info is as good as none, especially for the novice.
And as to "it'll take all the time it needs": What is your cut off point? Would you be OK with another year's wait? Two more? Three? How much time is Ok for the last 5% if we're at 95% after two years?
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:31:31
and yet here you are
Sunk cost fallacy, fear of missing out, Ellipse won't offer refunds...take your pick.
To add, and this is by far my biggest gripe, the fake countdown right now, once again, makes it look like its done at the end of this month. We were all naïve, and new joiners are likely similarly naive thinking it's this close, based on misleading info. Unless anyone interested reads two years of history and each spinoff discussion, claiming "you knew what you were getting into" is spurious. It can be claimed all the information is there, somewhere, to make an informed decision, but I argue obfuscated and opaque info is as good as none, especially for the novice.
And as to "it'll take all the time it needs": What is your cut off point? Would you be OK with another year's wait? Two more? Three? How much time is Ok for the last 5% if we're at 95% after two years?
The fake countdown is definitely what kicked off my paying closer attention to the management of this project, and since then I've noticed many more things I have problems with.
Another major issue I have is that there is significantly less community involvement in this project than I would like. Ellipse is forcing upon us his subjective interpretation and definition of perfection, rather than listening or even soliciting (there are exceptions to this) input from his investors.
Now I get that he is an authority on the Model F, but that only goes so far. For example, he got a material analysis done, a precision, replicable study, on spring materials based on as imprecise and inaccurate a measurement as his hearing? To go through that based on a fundamentally subjective measurement?
I mean if he had done an FFT on the audio, identified differences, and posted the results, then maybe I'd be more accepting of the pathway he took. But just him listening to it? Are you serious? And then not even posting the audio for us to listen to?
You know I'm accepting of delays, as long as there is a good argument for having them. Here, I'm just not getting that.
Post by: billm on Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:53:11
Post by: sixdeuces on Fri, 18 May 2018, 16:54:57
The fake countdown is definitely what kicked off my paying closer attention to the management of this project...
I'll give you this one. I definitely did hop on because I thought the deadline was near, only to find out differently later.
Luckily, I've been down the GB road before and it's not that big a deal, but I can see how it would mislead a newcomer.
Post by: gumeraser on Tue, 22 May 2018, 21:39:57
https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
Post by: gumeraser on Thu, 24 May 2018, 20:15:00
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 24 May 2018, 20:26:23
Post by: sundin on Fri, 25 May 2018, 12:26:36
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...We need an "after"
https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
Post by: henz on Fri, 25 May 2018, 16:14:03
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...We need an "after"
https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
2022, called it!
Post by: Synjin on Fri, 25 May 2018, 17:00:06
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 25 May 2018, 17:06:10
I was originally joining for 2 or 3 of these boards but decided to cancel my order because I wanted to be on the safe side of things. During that time, these were supposedly shipping very soon (that was the first deadline for the initial GB before it was extended multiple times) I've been burned by multiple GB in the past so I recommend getting a refund and then requesting for a re-invoice to ensure that you stay within the protection period PayPal offers.
Ellipse uses his storefront to take orders and not via PayPal, AFAIK. Protection here would come from the bank from which you issued your credit card.
Post by: Synjin on Fri, 25 May 2018, 17:17:48
Seems like there's been salt on this thread recently. :(
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 May 2018, 20:44:57
Another mini update:
The key factory is fixing up the molds and expects to be finished by the end of next week. They are also working on the color matching. So we could have the final samples in hand in ~2 weeks and then start mass production of the keys in June.
The spring factory is still working on the final samples. They had to put in a special order at the wire factory in Japan as the wire is no longer common enough to stock.
We are wrapping up here. Again my apologies for the long factory production delays, and I thank those who are excited as I am about bringing the Model F back into production!
Speaking of wrapping, I have ordered a gummed paper tape dispenser and tape so the actual keyboard boxes will have a more professional IBM-like appearance, along with the dot matrix printer and green bar computer paper for everyone's packing slip. IBM used paper tape on shipping boxes of many of their 1980s computers and Model F keyboards, and also on their 1390131 two-pack shipping boxes - see third photo here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/brand-new-in-box-ibm-1390131-model-m-keyboard/
Catching everyone up on the project:
After speaking with some very helpful advisers including engineers and someone who helped run a successful large Kickstarter campaign, I waited until the factories were able to produce fully functional prototypes and could produce the keyboards for $350 or less before accepting any orders. That was probably the most important piece of advice I've received for this project.
I have studied the challenges of hardware projects, especially those requiring less conventional production processes. One of the issues with some crowdfunded projects revolves around developing new technology and the project fails as they ran out of development resources - this issue is not the case here as the software and controller firmware were fully developed thanks to xwhatsit and the factory has completed the Model F molds and tooling for all the plastic and metal parts (save the keys) so the final round will be able to go much more smoothly. The Model F parts went into production with no yield issues. I read recently about e-ink phone cases and 3D VR headphones as examples of production and technology development problems resulting in them running out of money.
In summary - 100% functionality was achieved with the prototypes; the factory delays have enabled us to move towards meeting the original Model F aesthetics, sound, and experience:
We are not missing our goal here of a Brand New Model F because the factory have completed production of functional Model F parts. All but the keys and springs passed my inspection, were produced, and are boxed up waiting to be assembled. The factories have eventually succeeded in producing the several hundred thousand parts I've ordered so far - PCBs, die cast cases, flippers, barrels, ribbon cables, inner steel assemblies, etc.
In general the factory production delays have historically focused on whether to proceed with the original timeline with working but substandard parts or rejecting the prototypes to make the new Model F as close to the originals as possible - I have always chosen the latter option. Few issues were with parts being non-functional. The goal of this project from the beginning has been a reproduction of the Model F, not a Model F style keyboard.
The two "key" parts remaining are the key sets and springs. The factory has proven they can make the springs within tolerance; just trying to get them to sound as close as possible to the original Model F.
If the keys become a bottleneck we will still be able to deliver the orders using Unicomp keys for those who would prefer not waiting any longer for the new keys (but again almost all of the keys are now approved and within spec, and the factory is just finishing up a few corrections and matching colors).
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 25 May 2018, 20:56:55
Any more thoughts on the 60% dark gray v. 80% dark gray keys? So far I am leaning towards changing it to 60% unless people are fine with 80%.
Another mini update:
The key factory is fixing up the molds and expects to be finished by the end of next week. They are also working on the color matching. So we could have the final samples in hand in ~2 weeks and then start mass production of the keys in June.
The spring factory is still working on the final samples. They had to put in a special order at the wire factory in Japan as the wire is no longer common enough to stock.
We are wrapping up here. Again my apologies for the long factory production delays, and I thank those who are excited as I am about bringing the Model F back into production!
Speaking of wrapping, I have ordered a gummed paper tape dispenser and tape so the actual keyboard boxes will have a more professional IBM-like appearance, along with the dot matrix printer and green bar computer paper for everyone's packing slip. IBM used paper tape on shipping boxes of many of their 1980s computers and Model F keyboards, and also on their 1390131 two-pack shipping boxes - see third photo here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/brand-new-in-box-ibm-1390131-model-m-keyboard/
Catching everyone up on the project:
After speaking with some very helpful advisers including engineers and someone who helped run a successful large Kickstarter campaign, I waited until the factories were able to produce fully functional prototypes for $350 or less before accepting any orders. That was probably the most important piece of advice I've received for this project.
I have studied the challenges of hardware projects, especially those requiring less conventional production processes. One of the issues with some crowdfunded projects revolves around developing new technology and the project fails as they ran out of development resources - this issue is not the case here as the software and controller firmware were fully developed thanks to xwhatsit and the factory has completed the Model F molds and tooling for all the plastic and metal parts (save the keys) so the final round will be able to go much more smoothly. The Model F parts went into production with no yield issues. I read recently about e-ink phone cases and 3D VR headphones as examples of production and technology development problems resulting in them running out of money.
In summary - 100% functionality was achieved with the prototypes; the factory delays have enabled us to move towards meeting the original Model F aesthetics, sound, and experience:
We are not missing our goal here of a Brand New Model F because the factory have completed production of functional Model F parts. All but the keys and springs passed my inspection, were produced, and are boxed up waiting to be assembled. The factories have eventually succeeded in producing the several hundred thousand parts I've ordered so far - PCBs, die cast cases, flippers, barrels, ribbon cables, inner steel assemblies, etc.
In general the factory production delays have historically focused on whether to proceed with the original timeline with working but substandard parts or rejecting the prototypes to make the new Model F as close to the originals as possible - I have always chosen the latter option. Few issues were with parts being non-functional. The goal of this project from the beginning has been a reproduction of the Model F, not a Model F style keyboard.
The two "key" parts remaining are the key sets and springs. The factory has proven they can make the springs within tolerance; just trying to get them to sound as close as possible to the original Model F.
If the keys become a bottleneck we will still be able to deliver the orders using Unicomp keys for those who would prefer not waiting any longer for the new keys (but again almost all of the keys are now approved and within spec, and the factory is just finishing up a few corrections and matching colors).
Thank you for the update!
I am also leaning towards the 60% dark gray. I have ordered the blank black keycaps also, so I'd prefer more legible legends on the dark gray ones.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 31 May 2018, 22:07:48
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: SixtyLife on Fri, 01 June 2018, 00:08:21
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!ellipse you madman
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 01 June 2018, 00:12:37
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Fri, 01 June 2018, 00:56:13
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!Absolute mad man.
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: ag36 on Fri, 01 June 2018, 18:47:45
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
(Attachment Link)
Niiiice! Once it's in production I'll order a extra model F from you. Already placed order for a F77 a while ago.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 02 June 2018, 13:46:17
On the subject of the springs, I just replied to a question on the project web site regarding the goals of the spring research and prototyping - please feel free to see the reply below.
The springs definitely change over time but not as much as you’d think in some examples.
The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).
I have a home movie of myself typing (for the first time!) on the family’s Model F XT keyboard from our IBM PC. Back then these keyboards were much newer. I have reviewed the sound of our Model F. (We no longer have the computer or keyboard though). It did not sound much different to many of the Model F keyboards today – still with a characteristic buckling upon actuation and a small amount of reverb. The reverb is in line with some of my best condition Model F keyboards today. No two Model F keyboards sound exactly alike; I am aiming for my favorite original Model F, a 1984 F122. With age the springs should even more closely approach the older springs.
Some of my earlier forum postings on the springs:
Updates on the spring research – samples matched original XT springs!
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound – many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I’d like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don’t worry I won’t be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing – who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released – not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.
I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer’s sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro’s should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like “The sound is not the same as my original Model F.” Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT’s in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F’s. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it’s not just the sound – the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience – a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F’s take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.
Post by: LightningXI on Sat, 02 June 2018, 14:24:01
great ag36.
On the subject of the springs, I just replied to a question on the project web site regarding the goals of the spring research and prototyping - please feel free to see the reply below.
The springs definitely change over time but not as much as you’d think in some examples.
The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).
I have a home movie of myself typing (for the first time!) on the family’s Model F XT keyboard from our IBM PC. Back then these keyboards were much newer. I have reviewed the sound of our Model F. (We no longer have the computer or keyboard though). It did not sound much different to many of the Model F keyboards today – still with a characteristic buckling upon actuation and a small amount of reverb. The reverb is in line with some of my best condition Model F keyboards today. No two Model F keyboards sound exactly alike; I am aiming for my favorite original Model F, a 1984 F122. With age the springs should even more closely approach the older springs.
Some of my earlier forum postings on the springs:
Updates on the spring research – samples matched original XT springs!
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound – many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I’d like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don’t worry I won’t be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing – who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released – not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.
I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer’s sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro’s should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like “The sound is not the same as my original Model F.” Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT’s in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F’s. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it’s not just the sound – the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience – a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F’s take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.
Absolutely fantastic news on the springs!!! I am so excited for progress in the project!
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 02 June 2018, 16:47:39
I've already said the same things many months ago, but I don't remember if ellipse noticed it or not.
Post by: ag36 on Sun, 03 June 2018, 05:34:25
Post by: ag36 on Mon, 11 June 2018, 13:31:10
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 June 2018, 23:40:50
I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122). It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration. I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.
I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.
Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more. Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.
Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals. We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 12 June 2018, 01:38:09
Spring Success! Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production! The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.Really excited that the springs are chosen! One less item on the list. Now to tackle those keycaps!
I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122). It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration. I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.
I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.
Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more. Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.
Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals. We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 12 June 2018, 04:30:15
Post by: ag36 on Tue, 12 June 2018, 07:06:03
Spring Success! Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production! The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.
I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122). It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration. I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.
I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.
Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more. Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.
Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals. We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.
Wow, sounds fantastic!
Post by: DasGnome on Tue, 12 June 2018, 09:33:41
Please consider to add also the option for a more muted spring. While this is a "philological" project, many have asked to have a quieter option.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but I think we should let this first round ship first at least to prevent more delays. After it's all done, offer some separate spring packs.
Post by: vewy_nice on Tue, 12 June 2018, 10:15:16
I'll just echo again: I think it'd be a neat idea at some point.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 June 2018, 23:31:36
If the springs finish production this month, assembly can possibly start next month.
Everyone will be getting the same springs but I'll consider offering a quiet spring add on pack during the final round (shipping separately only) now that I know which variations have quieter reverb (the click sound is still the same no matter the spring).
Post by: quiou on Thu, 14 June 2018, 11:33:52
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 15 June 2018, 01:08:45
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 June 2018, 16:25:05
They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)
The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below. I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.
They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.
Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below? Hint: The stepped key is original!
Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before. As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 15 June 2018, 16:33:04
The new key samples arrived!Wow. Those look fantastic, and the color matching is pretty much spot-on.
They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)
The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below. I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.
They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.
Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below? Hint: The stepped key is original!
Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before. As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.
(Attachment Link)
Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
Post by: romevi on Fri, 15 June 2018, 17:00:17
(https://i.imgur.com/SyjQbJe.jpg)
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 15 June 2018, 20:04:29
Just to check: we can order complete sets of the blue color and the gray color?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 June 2018, 20:07:36
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 June 2018, 18:07:51
Post by: LightningXI on Sat, 16 June 2018, 18:09:59
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today! Great turnout!Every time I get to see your samples, I get excited about these coming soon. I hope we can see the finish line soon!
Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
Post by: darkcruix on Sun, 17 June 2018, 02:46:46
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today! Great turnout!
I hope someone made photos (or even videos) and can share. I wish I could be there.
Post by: xueyao on Sun, 17 June 2018, 06:29:45
Second that! If somebody took vid or pics of the boards, please put it online. Dying to see what the latest revision looks likeNice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today! Great turnout!
I hope someone made photos (or even videos) and can share. I wish I could be there.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Post by: Lagomorph on Sun, 17 June 2018, 07:54:01
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8rnwdz/photos_from_the_2018_nyc_mechanical_keyboard/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8rnwdz/photos_from_the_2018_nyc_mechanical_keyboard/)
(https://i.imgur.com/JN8YqAF.jpg)
Post by: pchatterjee on Sun, 17 June 2018, 15:50:07
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
Post by: OracleKev on Sun, 17 June 2018, 19:48:19
Maybe it's picture or prototype thing?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 June 2018, 20:26:39
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sun, 17 June 2018, 21:02:27
Pix look great to me.There's no reason to make the F107
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.
Post by: OracleKev on Sun, 17 June 2018, 21:40:04
It is the angle of the photo.
Excellent!
Post by: darkcruix on Mon, 18 June 2018, 04:04:50
Pix look great to me.There's no reason to make the F107
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.
Well, the number of available F107 seem to shrink. I asked some of the few sellers and they all told me that the available ones are super limited and no more can be found in the wild. I try to get one since some time now and working ones are very hard to find (without even talking about the price).
Look at the F122, they are available in much higher quantity and they currently sell for US$500 and more. Seems like two factors have come into play - the demand is rising and/or the availability is dwindling.
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 18 June 2018, 04:47:13
Pix look great to me.There's no reason to make the F107
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.
Well, the number of available F107 seem to shrink. I asked some of the few sellers and they all told me that the available ones are super limited and no more can be found in the wild. I try to get one since some time now and working ones are very hard to find (without even talking about the price).
Look at the F122, they are available in much higher quantity and they currently sell for US$500 and more. Seems like two factors have come into play - the demand is rising and/or the availability is dwindling.
I have an f107 in pieces due to laziness, i would probebly sell it for pretty cheap if you pm me. But no guarentees it will work.
Post by: jzono1 on Tue, 19 June 2018, 17:06:38
The new key samples arrived!
They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)
The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below. I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.
They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.
Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below? Hint: The stepped key is original!
Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before. As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.
(Attachment Link)
Um, which is the 60% dark gray? The two large ones in the foreground? Or the nearly black small one?
(Just doublechecking - personally I don't value legend legibleness that much.)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 June 2018, 17:17:19
Post by: jzono1 on Tue, 19 June 2018, 19:31:04
It looks significantly lighter than Orginative's Carbon Black that was used as an example in the interest check thread (And even that one is lighter than I prefer personally.)
Personally I feel like the one in that picture will not look good, neither in a black nor in a red case. It will make the legend very legible, but that was never the point of the dark grey option from what I understand.
Let me repeat the quote from the DA thread, that the interest thread was based on:
Quote
Yes if someone wants to track interest in black legends on lighter black PBT we'd need 20 sets to proceed but I'd be up for it as a lower priority add on set only.
Hopefully you'll understand this criticism and consider doing something about it - but if this is the color you go for I'm certain that I'm not the only one who will be disappointed.
Good legends isn't a priority with black on black keycaps - most sets keep them barely legible. To me the whole point of black legends on black keycaps is to prioritize aesthetics above functionality but still have subtle legends so that they keycaps don't look as empty as normal blank caps.
Post by: Kavik on Tue, 19 June 2018, 19:42:01
That's not what I signed up for, with the "black legends on lighter black PBT" option. :(
It looks significantly lighter than Orginative's Carbon Black that was used as an example in the interest check thread (And even that one is lighter than I prefer personally.)
Personally I feel like the one in that picture will not look good, neither in a black nor in a red case. It will make the legend very legible, but that was never the point of the dark grey option from what I understand.
Let me repeat the quote from the DA thread, that the interest thread was based on:QuoteYes if someone wants to track interest in black legends on lighter black PBT we'd need 20 sets to proceed but I'd be up for it as a lower priority add on set only.
Hopefully you'll understand this criticism and consider doing something about it - but if this is the color you go for I'm certain that I'm not the only one who will be disappointed.
Good legends isn't a priority with black on black keycaps - most sets keep them barely legible. To me the whole point of black legends on black keycaps is to prioritize aesthetics above functionality but still have subtle legends so that they keycaps don't look as empty as normal blank caps.
I know I was one who suggested the 60% gray, but, after seeing the samples, I agree with jzono1 to some extent. The pictures from 5/11 made the 80% gray look exactly like black, which is why I thought 60% gray would be better. Maybe there is more of a difference in person that's hard to capture on camera. The 60% keys end up looking almost like standard modifier keys.
That said, I would still be happy with either one, so I'm not a hardliner either way, but I think my preference is the 80% gray if I have to choose one.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 June 2018, 22:07:47
I agree that the photo on the Originative web site itself seems to be much less bright than many of the reviewers' photos and also the photos on Massdrop. https://www.massdrop.com/buy/originative-carbon-black-pbt-keycap-set
For those interested, over on DT some dye sublimated 80% keys were shown (along with photos of my sample 80% keys also posted here). The 80% gray keys are very close to black in person. https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046-3270.html#p412487
Post by: jzono1 on Wed, 20 June 2018, 13:35:06
Yes - I agree that 80% probably would be too much - and I saw those pictures back when you got the first samples.
I do think that if they were a tiny bit darker that would look better. Could you get samples made with something "in-between," say closer to 70%?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 June 2018, 15:50:33
Next month marks the start of Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly! Assembly will start with attaching over 100,000 springs to their flippers using a custom built machine (link below).
After the approval of the springs earlier this month, they have entered production. Outside of the keys this is the final part we were waiting on. The keys are not yet in production as a few keys in the mold need to be adjusted.
The factory will make about a thousand springs next week to start with, and then official Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly will start with the spring-flipper attacher (photos here)!
I will then inspect the quality of the first production springs on the flippers to make sure they are in line with the approved samples they provided.
Pricing changes: free US shipping now built into item prices; same overall cost though. I have been getting many questions on shipping, so to make things easier I have changed shipping to be free in the US and increased pricing by the amount of the original shipping charge ($21). I’ve also disclosed shipping costs for each region on the store page and each Brand New Model F keyboard page. International shipping has also been discounted to reflect the $21 pricing increase so that the out of pocket is the same with this change. The accessory key sets have gone up $4 to help cover prototyping overages. Please note that existing orders will not have to change to reflect the new pricing. Shipping Rates — US: Free. Canada: $39.92. Europe/Asia/South America: $49.30. Australia/New Zealand: $69.59.
jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set. Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).
Post by: Kevadu on Fri, 22 June 2018, 16:10:24
Post by: Acereconkeys on Fri, 22 June 2018, 16:16:26
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month! Pricing changes to reflect free US shipping
Next month marks the start of Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly! Assembly will start with attaching over 100,000 springs to their flippers using a custom built machine (link below).
After the approval of the springs earlier this month, they have entered production. Outside of the keys this is the final part we were waiting on. The keys are not yet in production as a few keys in the mold need to be adjusted.
The factory will make about a thousand springs next week to start with, and then official Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly will start with the spring-flipper attacher (photos here)!
I will then inspect the quality of the first production springs on the flippers to make sure they are in line with the approved samples they provided.
Pricing changes: free US shipping now built into item prices; same overall cost though. I have been getting many questions on shipping, so to make things easier I have changed shipping to be free in the US and increased pricing by the amount of the original shipping charge ($21). I’ve also disclosed shipping costs for each region on the store page and each Brand New Model F keyboard page. International shipping has also been discounted to reflect the $21 pricing increase so that the out of pocket is the same with this change. The accessory key sets have gone up $4 to help cover prototyping overages. Please note that existing orders will not have to change to reflect the new pricing. Shipping Rates — US: Free. Canada: $39.92. Europe/Asia/South America: $49.30. Australia/New Zealand: $69.59.
jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set. Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).
Great progress!
Do you have any further update/information on what the status of ordering/purchasing will be?
Post by: sundin on Fri, 22 June 2018, 18:03:34
International shipping has also been discountedMarvelous, i assume that will change nothing for the older payers.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 June 2018, 18:17:32
sundin correct - there is no change to existing orders and the new international orders will have the same total cost (keyboard + shipping).
Post by: jzono1 on Sat, 23 June 2018, 05:45:15
jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set. Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).
Fair enough - just asking.
With the communication from you regarding that set, I feel like I'm not getting exactly what I signed up for - and I'm unsure of how well it'll go with the true red case.
Can I change one of my two ordered grey sets to unprinted black? The information both here and in the thread about the keys did not accurately reflect the look you were going for - only when I googled for *other* pictures of the Carbon Black set than the one linked directly back when the interest check thread was made did I see this.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 June 2018, 08:28:19
Post by: krispy on Sat, 23 June 2018, 16:33:54
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month!
Post by: romevi on Sun, 24 June 2018, 00:15:54
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month!
Ha ha; excellent clip to use.
Post by: krispy on Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:09:01
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:17:03
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:31:37
Post by: ixtopolis on Wed, 27 June 2018, 10:15:25
Is the order window going to be open through July? I keep wanting to get into this but it's never the right time money-wise.
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 27 June 2018, 10:42:32
@EllipseThe final ordering round will be open 1-2 months after the early-bird round ships. Early-bird has just started assembly so it’ll definitely still be open at the end of July.
Is the order window going to be open through July? I keep wanting to get into this but it's never the right time money-wise.
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 27 June 2018, 12:48:47
Post by: euphxenos on Wed, 27 June 2018, 13:46:38
@Ellipse
Is the order window going to be open through July? I keep wanting to get into this but it's never the right time money-wise.
Every month, that note on Ellipse's site about having your orders in by the end of the month changes to the end of the following month. In a few days, it will ask you to have your order in by the end of July. That's been going on for a very long time; please don't be fooled into thinking there's an urgent need to get in an order, or you'll miss out. That's just for the early bird round; there's another round after this. Read his last update carefully -- he still hasn't completely finalized the springs (he's still going to test whether the latest version of the springs works with the assembly machine), and the molds for the keycaps aren't entirely done. As positive and upbeat as the update is, it's still not done. Don't fall for the false sense of urgency.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 09 July 2018, 22:31:53
https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/bay-area-ca-brand-new-model-f-meetup-7-7-t19299.html
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 09 July 2018, 23:35:07
Post by: euphxenos on Tue, 10 July 2018, 12:00:28
Thanks for attending the Bay Area Model F meetup everyone! It was nice meeting all of you! In case anyone was curious on feedback from the meeting there was also some discussion on DT (also posted on the meetup thread for sake of completeness):
https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/bay-area-ca-brand-new-model-f-meetup-7-7-t19299.html
Was that announced in this thread, or only on other sites? I would've gone if I'd known about it, but I rarely look at Deskthority.
Post by: Taeha Types on Tue, 10 July 2018, 15:54:41
Post by: Lagomorph on Tue, 10 July 2018, 17:14:40
Had a pretty lousy day at work, but coming home to this was nice. Whoever made that video, great job!
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 11 July 2018, 08:15:22
Was fortunate enough to see some of the latest samples in person and play around with them!Hell yeah, dude. Are you in for one?
Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
Post by: Taeha Types on Wed, 11 July 2018, 13:09:46
Was fortunate enough to see some of the latest samples in person and play around with them!Hell yeah, dude. Are you in for one?
Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
Most definitely am! Joined last year hehe
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 11 July 2018, 16:15:32
Proceeds to run away, laughing like a hyena.
Post by: Synjin on Wed, 11 July 2018, 16:24:37
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 July 2018, 16:31:47
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 July 2018, 21:50:54
Keys are approved for production! Industrial SSK blue color is a match and has been approved!
After 6 months of retooling the molds, the factory has succeeded! All keys and stabilizer inserts function and operate well with the barrels. The factory will either start production on all colors except pearl/off-white, or they will wait until that color is approved (they are still working on the PBT color mixing as the previous samples were very close but not an exact match).
First tests of the custom built pneumatic spring attacher!
P clips are almost finished! The P clip secures the cable inside the classic die cast zinc cases to minimize risk of damage to the USB port on the xwhatsit controller. Just another example of molds and tooling needing to be built from scratch because none of the original Model F tooling survived. Attached are photos of the P clip stamping tool and inspection process.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 11 July 2018, 21:58:57
A mini-update - progress on keys, springs, and P clips:Pretty cool machine there.
Keys are approved for production! Industrial SSK blue color is a match and has been approved!
After 6 months of retooling the molds, the factory has succeeded! All keys and stabilizer inserts function and operate well with the barrels. The factory will either start production on all colors except pearl/off-white, or they will wait until that color is approved (they are still working on the PBT color mixing as the previous samples were very close but not an exact match).
First tests of the custom built pneumatic spring attacher!
P clips are almost finished! The P clip secures the cable inside the classic die cast zinc cases to minimize risk of damage to the USB port on the xwhatsit controller. Just another example of molds and tooling needing to be built from scratch because none of the original Model F tooling survived. Attached are photos of the P clip stamping tool and inspection process.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: esquilax on Thu, 12 July 2018, 15:17:50
EDIT: You got me! Thanks for your help!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 July 2018, 22:16:19
Post by: compileme on Wed, 18 July 2018, 00:14:48
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 July 2018, 06:47:25
Post by: compileme on Wed, 18 July 2018, 10:26:26
Post by: vewy_nice on Wed, 18 July 2018, 20:52:19
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 July 2018, 21:12:13
Post by: FoC_Tow on Mon, 23 July 2018, 13:25:47
Yes sorry for the delays on the updates for addresses.
I need to update my shipping address aswell.
Will shoot you an email tomorrow <3
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 24 July 2018, 20:42:43
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 25 July 2018, 09:08:39
Pearl color key samples are expected tomorrow! Hopefully they will be an exact color match to the 1984 F122 / XT keys.
All the model F that I've heard sound differently, all keycaps that I've seen look a little bit different.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 July 2018, 18:22:30
The assembled springs first batch should be going out in a week or two. The factory has produced three of the spring attachers so far (from the video posted earlier).
As always please disregard the colors in these photos as they are not 100% accurate. In person the keys are a match.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 25 July 2018, 19:54:46
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 July 2018, 21:27:35
In the next week or so I am getting the assembled spring first run parts as well as some F122/F107/PC AT foam in case anyone needs early delivery (please let me know if you'd prefer this).
Post by: Pete on Thu, 26 July 2018, 05:10:44
[attach=1]
Post by: Glod on Fri, 27 July 2018, 17:21:47
This picture is what I am hoping to have at its best, it is what sold me. My expectations are super high
Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=126079;image)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 August 2018, 22:31:16
To save significant time I was thinking of having the factory assemble everything except the printed keys and putting it all on the cargo ship when everything is finished. That way we won't have to wait for the dye sub to finish, for them to receive the keys back, for them to install the keys, and then wait another month for the cargo ship to arrive before deliveries can start. All 200,000 or so keys (less dye sub) are planned to be completed by the end of August.
To minimize my assembly time I expect to ask the factory to figure out how to "assemble" the keys without a keyboard (maybe using plastic sheets with the keys properly arranged, like IBM used) and then mail me those sheets which can go into the dye sub jig and then pressed on to the keyboards (IBM used similar methods per the IBM Model F keyboard assembly video on YouTube).
Still waiting on the first production spring samples and dye sub test results.
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 02 August 2018, 22:34:20
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 August 2018, 22:38:25
Post by: esquilax on Mon, 06 August 2018, 08:40:33
Post by: u on Mon, 06 August 2018, 10:51:49
Call me crazy, but if it pushed up shipping, I'd be happy to install my own keys. Just give me a bag of them. Not sure how much that would change shipping times or impede QA, though.The keys need to be installed for testing.
Post by: xueyao on Mon, 06 August 2018, 23:32:21
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 August 2018, 19:13:27
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 10 August 2018, 16:45:48
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 August 2018, 17:23:45
Production springs approved for mass production! The springs fortunately are a match to the approved sample springs and I have approved the remaining 199,000 springs for production. The factory's first 1,000 springs were correctly assembled by the custom built pneumatic spring attacher machine #1; machines 2 and 3 require some minor adjustment to correct the seating of the spring on the flipper for optimal performance.
I also received some samples of the production compact cases and they are excellent. The sample cases from last year were very good but the bottom plate was a little too thin and the factory had to add more screws to ensure a tight assembly.
The blue cases came out a beautiful deep blue color that I like, but they are not a match to the Carolina Blue we specified so I'm requesting they make additional cases with the correct Carolina Blue color.
The regular/silver/light gray compact cases are also a match to the approved samples. I would describe the color as a little lighter than a 2013 MacBook Pro.
The production black hard anodized compact cases are also excellent.
And the F122 (also for F107/PC AT) foam arrived - I expect to mail out the orders this week. Please PM me if you'd like your F122 foam order shipped this week. I have extras beyond the number ordered so feel free to place another order this week if you'd like.
So this means that all keyboard parts are now in production or finished production! The last major part is the dye sub which the other shop is still working on.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 August 2018, 16:41:45
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 23 August 2018, 19:49:36
Does anyone else need PC AT / F122 / F107 foam? I still have extras that can go out this month. I sent out all the current orders of just foam.
I would be happy to purchase those, but delivery cost to Italy - and to Europe in general - is too high.
Post by: Kevadu on Fri, 24 August 2018, 00:07:07
Does anyone else need PC AT / F122 / F107 foam? I still have extras that can go out this month. I sent out all the current orders of just foam.
Wait, you have PC AT foam? I didn't see that as an option in the drop-down on your store.
Post by: ag36 on Fri, 24 August 2018, 19:05:39
Does anyone else need PC AT / F122 / F107 foam? I still have extras that can go out this month. I sent out all the current orders of just foam.
I would be happy to purchase those, but delivery cost to Italy - and to Europe in general - is too high.
Me too :(
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 25 August 2018, 09:18:11
Yes please see the description in the foam for PC AT: "You can use my new foam for your AT as well. The AT layout is essentially that of the F107 but with the 15 key F107 section (insert/delete, cursor keys etc) cut out. To get PC AT foam, order the F107 and cut out the 15 key section yourself. I just tested this with the PC AT refurb I did and it worked well. You’d just need to do a little snipping around the space bar area."
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 28 August 2018, 20:23:31
We've reached $599,000 in orders so far!
I am glad that so many people have ordered the extra parts which will keep these keyboards running smoothly long after production ends. Even if you don't end up needing them it's good that they are out there in case someone else in the community needs them. So far 3,000+ extra individual flippers+springs, 1,700+ barrels, and 275 First Aid Kits have been ordered along with 1,300+ F62/F77 keyboards. I hope everyone can spread the word about the great Model F keyboards so they are not lost to history.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Wed, 29 August 2018, 11:28:54
Production on the final two keyboard parts continues this month. The dye sub supplier is not yet finished with the key samples.
We've reached $599,000 in orders so far!
I am glad that so many people have ordered the extra parts which will keep these keyboards running smoothly long after production ends. Even if you don't end up needing them it's good that they are out there in case someone else in the community needs them. So far 3,000+ extra individual flippers+springs, 1,700+ barrels, and 275 First Aid Kits have been ordered along with 1,300+ F62/F77 keyboards. I hope everyone can spread the word about the great Model F keyboards so they are not lost to history.
Hi Ellipse,
I ordered an F77 with an industrial grey case. I'm consider switching that to beige, and I wonder if that's possible? I'm not yet sure I actually want to switch (I'm indecisive about these things), but I would like to know if it's even something that can happen.
Thanks.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 August 2018, 16:30:12
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 30 August 2018, 19:57:23
Sure, please email me if you decide to change.
Okay - thanks. I'll shoot you an email if I decide to go that way.
Post by: PancakeMSTR on Thu, 30 August 2018, 21:40:52
Sure, please email me if you decide to change.
Ellipse - you wouldn't be able to take a picture of an F77 in a beige and industrial case for me, would you?
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Fri, 31 August 2018, 10:49:29
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 31 August 2018, 20:14:34
Today we reached the $600,000 mark for Brand New Model F Keyboard orders!
Thanks to everyone for their patience with the factory on the journey towards brand new Model F keyboards made to IBM’s standards.
As noted in the prior update, assembly started this month with the 1,000 production springs/flippers and the final two remaining parts were approved and entered production earlier this month (200,000 keys and 199,000 springs). They are still working on producing those springs and keys. The other keyboard parts all finished production a while back and are awaiting assembly. The Carolina Blue ultra compact cases came out a darker shade of blue than specified, so I have ordered additional units to be made with Carolina Blue – if anyone wants the darker blue cases that look great (see photo below) please message me. A few Carolina Blue cases have not yet sold out in case anyone’s interested.
The 200,000 key production is moving along nicely and should be finished in the coming weeks. Below is a photo of one box of completed 1U keys. After that is done is the dye sub.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Here are the case colors - please note that the photos are not 100% accurate of the colors in person.
Industrial SSK color: https://imgur.com/wdxKhh8
Off-white/beige color: https://imgur.com/PE8K10Y
Post by: a_ak57 on Sun, 02 September 2018, 13:05:42
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 02 September 2018, 13:22:12
Post by: DasGnome on Sun, 02 September 2018, 13:26:13
Should be around year end or early next year.Pmd you about changing case color. Should I have sent email instead?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 September 2018, 15:35:48
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 10 September 2018, 21:08:14
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 10 September 2018, 22:00:14
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 14 September 2018, 19:34:25
The first keyboard I typed on was a Model F, attached to an IBM PC 5150 or 5160.
The video camera happened to be rolling!
Also below are photos of the completed springs. It is interesting that 5,000 springs can be packed in one bag!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 14 September 2018, 19:37:21
Video of me typing for the first time on a Model F in 1990:
The first keyboard I typed on was a Model F, attached to an IBM PC 5150 or 5160.
The video camera happened to be rolling!
Also below are photos of the completed springs. It is interesting that 5,000 springs can be packed in one bag!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Adorable video! What a funny coincidence that the video was taken that first time. Must be fate.
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 14 September 2018, 20:40:05
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 14 September 2018, 23:57:14
Good lord, you're young. I was rocking a sweet mullet in Jr. High at that date.
Haha, that's what I was thinking. He must be pretty close to my age.
Awesome video. I can't remember my first time typing or using a computer, but it was probably our Amiga 1000, which has a mechanical, yet very mushy feeling, keyboard. My dad's dream was to buy an IBM computer, but he never did because of cost (I think).
Post by: macclack on Sun, 16 September 2018, 08:40:55
Good lord, you're young. I was rocking a sweet mullet in Jr. High at that date.
Yes, I think I was almost in jr. High by 1990, but I was typing away on an AEK rather than IBM.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 September 2018, 17:08:35
Now assembly, dye sub, and packaging are the only remaining steps (the springs finished last week).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 19 September 2018, 17:09:59
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 19 September 2018, 17:53:29
Post by: Sifo on Wed, 19 September 2018, 18:11:46
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 20 September 2018, 01:21:16
wait i didn't realize there was blue cuz it wasn't on the site, wtfhttps://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/ (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/)
I must admit now that I see that packet, I'm suddenly quite keen on them too. Are there some extra's Ellipse? Could I easily add that to my order?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 20 September 2018, 06:53:26
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 September 2018, 09:43:24
The hosting company for the project web site is currently experiencing an outage; the web site is not up and running just yet. They are working on restoring connectivity.
Post by: gaunt on Mon, 24 September 2018, 15:12:08
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 24 September 2018, 18:14:06
The web host for the site is now back up and running. There was a major outage over the weekend.
Post by: euphxenos on Fri, 28 September 2018, 13:24:55
Can you elaborate on where you are in the process of getting the dye sub done for the keycaps? Have you found a factory to do it, gotten a sample, and approved it? Or do you still need to select a factory, get samples, adjust the font, go through multiple iterations, try different factories, etc. like you did with the springs?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 28 September 2018, 15:14:05
Post by: Sifo on Fri, 28 September 2018, 23:20:07
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 September 2018, 15:30:26
Post by: Sifo on Sat, 29 September 2018, 20:22:36
Post by: duynguyenle on Sun, 30 September 2018, 16:51:13
Video of me typing for the first time on a Model F in 1990:
The first keyboard I typed on was a Model F, attached to an IBM PC 5150 or 5160.
The video camera happened to be rolling!
Also below are photos of the completed springs. It is interesting that 5,000 springs can be packed in one bag!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Jesus H Christ that was a few months before I was even alive :))
Post by: EvergreenTree on Tue, 02 October 2018, 07:29:45
Post by: euphxenos on Tue, 02 October 2018, 11:44:50
I notice that the order deadline got pushed back to October 31st. Were there any delays in manufacturing or did you just want to give people more time to order?
That order deadline has been getting moved out a month at the beginning of every month for a very long time now.
Post by: Unxmaal on Tue, 02 October 2018, 12:00:53
I notice that the order deadline got pushed back to October 31st. Were there any delays in manufacturing or did you just want to give people more time to order?
I was very concerned about that deadline, so I ordered on the last day of July in 2017.
It's been "extended" every month since then. The deadline is certainly a lie.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 October 2018, 16:43:46
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 07 October 2018, 20:21:30
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Post by: ptiede on Sun, 07 October 2018, 20:24:32
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.html
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
I'd be interested in adding a solenoid
Post by: LightningXI on Sun, 07 October 2018, 20:41:19
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.html
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
I would be _very_ interested. I can finally skip a Beamspring?!
Post by: tron on Sun, 07 October 2018, 21:10:19
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.html
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
I'd love to add a solenoid to my F62/77 boards. Is there a way to mount it to the case? The bottom pan on beamsprings typically have a mounting slot/spring bar or bolt.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sun, 07 October 2018, 21:18:57
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.htmlAdd MORE noise to my model F? Sign me up!
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 07 October 2018, 21:37:25
On DT, JP posted an ebay link with a lower price for potentially the same product - it's probably easiest to just order from there individually for $12 shipped and order the solenoid drivers from orihalcon. https://www.ebay.com/itm/271967978003 We will keep this as a DIY addon.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 07 October 2018, 22:35:01
Post by: sixdeuces on Mon, 08 October 2018, 10:39:51
Post by: Xonar on Mon, 08 October 2018, 14:08:53
Post by: sundin on Tue, 09 October 2018, 02:47:09
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.htmli'm in too :-[
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Post by: Meowsaur on Tue, 09 October 2018, 12:52:10
YES.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 October 2018, 21:00:19
Post by: JohnSmith4623 on Tue, 09 October 2018, 22:26:46
Post by: StrangPrisoner on Wed, 10 October 2018, 01:11:17
Post by: GeneriksGiraffe on Wed, 10 October 2018, 01:36:22
Great, I've asked orihalcon to get in touch with those expressing interest as he's the only one who sells the solenoid driver xwhatsit add on board.If its at the right price id totally want one as well.
Post by: Fluffypupper22 on Wed, 10 October 2018, 06:51:33
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.htmlI’d be interested in a solenoid as well.
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Pete on Sat, 13 October 2018, 04:05:40
Great, I've asked orihalcon to get in touch with those expressing interest as he's the only one who sells the solenoid driver xwhatsit add on board.I'd love one too if it wasn't too much trouble to install. I was previously wondering if there was some sort of USB controlled solenoid that could be retrofitted relatively easily to any keyboard but nothing came of that.
Post by: snevok on Sun, 14 October 2018, 11:32:00
Post by: JohnSmith4623 on Sun, 14 October 2018, 17:21:22
Post by: ChemicalHalo on Sun, 14 October 2018, 18:03:02
Please link a GB/IC thread here if it happens!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 October 2018, 19:52:34
For anyone interested in the solenoid please feel free to contact orihalcon directly and/or continue posting interest here.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 October 2018, 08:50:57
Post by: Zobeid Zuma on Fri, 26 October 2018, 07:28:01
Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me. Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for. The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now. And those extra 15 keys, well… What are they really good for?
It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right. But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse". They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.
On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips. Obviously the F62 doesn't have that. (Again, it is what it is.) So I'd be looking at:
(http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/model_f62_layout.png)
My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way. So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys. I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.
If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow. I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.
(http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/model_f77_layout.png)
And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.
What do you guys think?
Post by: tron on Fri, 26 October 2018, 12:15:23
As we wait through this final stretch of the whole manufacturing quest, which has been so much longer than many of us anticipated… I find that my taste in keyboards has actually changed a fair bit since the time when I placed my order, and I'm dithering over whether I should change my order, assuming that's even possible now. With all the parts already produced, it would be perfectly understandable if it can't be changed. On the other hand, the website appears to still be taking new orders for this first production run?
Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me. Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for. The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now. And those extra 15 keys, well… What are they really good for?
It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right. But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse". They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.
On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips. Obviously the F62 doesn't have that. (Again, it is what it is.) So I'd be looking at:Show Image(http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/model_f62_layout.png)
My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way. So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys. I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.
If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow. I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.Show Image(http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/model_f77_layout.png)
And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.
What do you guys think?
It's kind of the opposite for me. I now prefer the F77 layout. It's not that much wider and it's nice to have quick access to arrow/number keys for coding and data entry tasks(although I do agree the F62 looks better and more modern vs F77). At the end of the day, I couldn't resist getting both. I could always sell one down the road if it didn't get much use.
Post by: Jampu on Sat, 27 October 2018, 17:03:01
...I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips. Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.
Thanks to the Wheelwriter, you can in fact use a 1.5:1:2.75:7.25:1:1.5 bottom row. This is (surprisingly) compatible with all IBM buckling spring keyboards that come with a standard or WKL bottom row, including these repro F62s and F77s. Somehow, the F107 is my only split space keyboard so far and now it's very difficult for me to get real work done without it. It's not the truest split space (gotta curl the left thumb a bit) but it's comfortable enough to use 24/7.
To do this, you will need to procure the following:
- 1x Model M white stabilizer insert
- 2x Ellipse spacebar stabilizer clip (or make your own)
- 1x Wheelwriter "Code" key
- 1x Wheelwriter spacebar and stabilizer wire
The installation is somewhat self-explanatory once you have the parts, but it does require attaching stabilizer clips to the barrel plate which may be troublesome depending on the route you take. I flattened some heavy-gauge copper wire and bent it into clips which I then soldered onto the plate and spray painted over. Removing the flipper from the right Alt key is also highly recommended.
I will try to take a few pictures for reference once I am back at work.
Post by: mumford on Mon, 29 October 2018, 17:19:54
If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow. I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.
I use trackball too. An option is to move the trackball to the left side and move the ball with left hand.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 03 November 2018, 13:34:35
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 06 November 2018, 06:54:58
Post by: supamesican on Wed, 14 November 2018, 09:46:03
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 November 2018, 18:31:28
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 November 2018, 23:43:35
Post by: Pete on Wed, 28 November 2018, 17:13:58
I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies.Thanks for your awesome dedication and persistence. It is fantastic to have someone so passionate about the quality of the final product.
...
The assembly process delays are frustrating but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 November 2018, 20:38:37
Also given this research it may be possible to mod the springs by hand if you prefer springs with less reverb - just press the springs down all the way leaving no space between bottom rung of the spring and the base of the nub on the flipper. Given the end of the spring and the last rung of the spring obviously not being a full loop, this means the spring would be pressed in a way that makes the spring lean slightly to one side so that the entire bottom surface of the spring is as close to the base of the nub as possible. I will not be modding this for any orders though.
Post by: EvergreenTree on Fri, 30 November 2018, 20:28:19
Also, I agree with Pete. Even though the impatient part of my brain wants it now, I know how important it is to get it right. I understand and appreciate all of the work you have put into it and I hope it turns out well.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 30 November 2018, 20:36:22
Post by: Phosphero on Wed, 05 December 2018, 16:13:53
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 December 2018, 19:14:24
Post by: a_ak57 on Sat, 08 December 2018, 16:14:38
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 December 2018, 17:53:24
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 December 2018, 16:41:07
Post by: ljosa on Wed, 12 December 2018, 16:46:31
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 12 December 2018, 16:56:33
Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals? So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.
My vote is for no. The outside is pretty prone to erosion anyway. Plus the delay is much not needed.
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 12 December 2018, 18:42:19
Post by: dotcom on Wed, 12 December 2018, 19:53:31
Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals? So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.
My vote is no, but I appreciate the thought and offering.
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 12 December 2018, 21:14:35
Post by: bthezebra on Wed, 12 December 2018, 21:21:24
Post by: MFahim on Thu, 13 December 2018, 17:37:59
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 15 December 2018, 17:29:20
Post by: Pemdas on Sun, 16 December 2018, 04:07:43
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 16 December 2018, 15:03:09
Post by: MFahim on Sun, 16 December 2018, 17:51:21
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 December 2018, 22:46:14
Mfahim, these should start going out in 1H 2019. No need to lose your spot in line.
Plus I cannot guarantee current pricing for the next round, so you'd probably have to pay more next time. Raw materials are up significantly so the next batch will cost more. I don't have any specifics just yet on next round pricing.
Post by: MFahim on Mon, 17 December 2018, 02:46:55
Post by: LightningXI on Mon, 17 December 2018, 02:54:13
Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.Incredibly tempting, especially for a black case. #13 is also one of my favorite numbers, as it was my jersey # when I was an athlete. What kind of case did you pick? Is it original Kishsaver style in black? Or the ultracompact?
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
Ellipse, how would it work if the order transfer is from Pemdas who is in Canada to someone in the US? Would shipping charges be refunded?
Post by: sundin on Mon, 17 December 2018, 12:46:54
I'd like to know the status of the GB : what is done, what is to be done, and an average shipping delay ?
Thank you
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 17 December 2018, 21:31:01
Some timeline updates from the factory - we still have quite a bit of assembly time ahead of us:
The next batch of spring samples should arrive next week - hopefully the spring attacher machines 2 and 3 are assembling everything to spec!
Then they are going to start doing some test assemblies of a few full keyboards and testing the different configuration options.
Then in late January they start their long break for the new year.
After that I am hoping assembly can ramp up. Depending on assembly quality and speed I may have them assemble a few hundred and send them over right away instead of waiting for all 1500 or so to be assembled - not sure just yet if this is feasible.
Meanwhile this year I have been consulting with dye sublimation industry experts and an original IBM Model F keyboard production manager and ordering parts to design and build my dye sub system. Progress has been slower than expected. I had someone help me by building a temporary jig but the results were not to spec, and based on my conversations I decided I needed to build the real rig and then continue iterating from there.
Post by: gaunt on Wed, 19 December 2018, 17:17:59
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 December 2018, 17:29:23
We still have quite a bit of non-dye sub related assembly time ahead of us so the dye sub is not currently bottlenecking anything. As I noted earlier if it does become a significant bottleneck everyone will have the option to get their keyboard before the keys are ready, and the option to have Unicomp keys.
Post by: EvergreenTree on Wed, 19 December 2018, 20:11:08
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 December 2018, 22:39:20
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 24 December 2018, 19:49:27
The factory still needs work on the attacher machines per the latest attached spring/flipper examples sent this week. It is frustrating that they have not gotten this right but as noted earlier I will not compromise one of the most important parts of the project to rush assembly. I have sent the factory a video of the sound differences with good and bad springs (as noted and uploaded to GH earlier) to reinforce the necessity of keeping to the assembly specifications. Unfortunately Machine 1's success rate is no longer high so all three machines need some adjustment. I have sent the factory some suggestions. I confirmed that the sample spring/flipper assemblies themselves when reseated by hand do pass inspection so it is not an issue with the springs or flippers. Here's a link to the spring attacher in case you haven't seen it already:
If anyone has any recommendations on how to improve the attaching process please do PM me. I suggested to the factory a very thin 0.2mm metal stencil type part to hold at the base of the flippers so the spring does not get pressed down too far.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 25 December 2018, 04:59:25
Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.you should double check on that case number brother. I paid for two early bird toolings to get any number from 5 and up. I picked all black f62 #13...
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
Post by: Pemdas on Tue, 25 December 2018, 07:26:47
Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.you should double check on that case number brother. I paid for two early bird toolings to get any number from 5 and up. I picked all black f62 #13...
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
When did you place your order? I ordered mine on January 27, 2016 and have the email receipts for it all. Early Bird Volunteer and I also have a confirmation PM here on Geekhack from Ellipse dated January 27th 2016 20:05:46.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 December 2018, 10:35:48
Post by: Lagomorph on Wed, 26 December 2018, 05:54:33
If anyone has any recommendations on how to improve the attaching process please do PM me. I suggested to the factory a very thin 0.2mm metal stencil type part to hold at the base of the flippers so the spring does not get pressed down too far.
I was going to ask if it was understood what was causing the difference between the early machine 1 mounted springs and the other two machines, but it sounds from this that it could be the distance the spring is pressed?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 December 2018, 15:59:56
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 27 December 2018, 17:04:42
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 January 2019, 13:28:39
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 01 January 2019, 14:18:43
We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
Post by: macclack on Tue, 01 January 2019, 14:37:32
We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I already took that plunge lol. Since I originally purchased--which was like 2 years ago--I've started to really love 60% keyboards.
Post by: Petch on Wed, 02 January 2019, 21:56:23
I just bought an F77 to go with my F62 :DWe are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 02 January 2019, 22:14:13
I just bought an F77 to go with my F62 :DWe are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I mean, the thing is... we really don't know what the keyboard feels like. I'm sure it'll be fantastic, but that's a lot of cash to throw down for a second one :)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 04 January 2019, 22:12:25
Looks like IBM did the one key at a time sound tests with each assembled keyboard as I've asked the factory to do for this project.
Quote
I asked the IBM Archives and the guy there Max who is cool referred me to a copy of the IBM SiteLine June 1982 magazine. It discusses how the Keyboard F Mechanisn Manufacturing is doing more with less versus previous keyboards, Specifically the IBM Model B keyboard mechanism and the Model E keyboard mechanism.
It would appear that Model F and Model M are sequential models of keyboard mechanism.
The article mentions that Model B keyboards have an absurd 9 moving parts, where Model F only has 3. I assume the cap, spring and flipper.
So it is actually pretty likely that "M" doesn't reference Membrane at all.
https://imgur.com/a/D9CN4lX
Post by: Petch on Sun, 06 January 2019, 11:47:23
I just bought an F77 to go with my F62 :DWe are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I mean, the thing is... we really don't know what the keyboard feels like. I'm sure it'll be fantastic, but that's a lot of cash to throw down for a second one :)
People have tried them at meetups, no?
Post by: Lagomorph on Sun, 06 January 2019, 14:41:53
Technology is especially tough since there's so much change and innovation, but at least input devices have better lasting value.
Post by: vewy_nice on Tue, 08 January 2019, 11:22:16
We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Maybe someday we can get an update like this, except replace "ordered" with "shipped" ;)
Unless they will start shopping tomorrow I'm going to have to change my address... Just posting so I don't forget to on you when I get home.
Post by: esquilax on Tue, 08 January 2019, 13:16:01
Unless they will start shopping tomorrow I'm going to have to change my address... Just posting so I don't forget to on you when I get home.
I've changed my address twice already. Ellipse is very responsive about that.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 17 January 2019, 21:39:09
The new design eliminates the horizontal movement of the posts holding the springs and instead just moves along one axis.
I think the spring sound video I sent them helped highlight the importance of an attachment that matches the spring-nub spacing and spring angle specifications. They will be making some more of these attacher machines in March after their break.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 January 2019, 17:50:55
They also built a total of 3 spring attachers of the new design from the photo posted 1/17 (each machine does 3 springs at a time) and plan on building more machines after returning to work to reduce assembly time. They sent samples for my approval from each of the 3 currently-built machines.
Currently I can ship a small number of barrels, assembled flippers/springs, and F122 / F107 inner foam in case anyone needs it. And next month I can start shipping unprinted key sets.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 29 January 2019, 20:13:51
Not to scare anyone - just a reminder that all issues discussed in the blog were successfully resolved and do not impact the delivery of the project.
Post by: mattlach on Tue, 29 January 2019, 21:34:23
Make a model with a standard "IBM Enhanced Keyboard" fullsize layout in black with doubleshot keys and backlighting, and I almost don't care what it costs. I'll be lining up around the block Apple store style.
Other ideas:
- Full NKRO reworking of circuitry
- MX-style Keycap stems?
This would be the goddamned holy grail for me.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 29 January 2019, 21:38:55
Oh man.1 They're already full N-key rollover
Make a model with a standard "IBM Enhanced Keyboard" fullsize layout in black with doubleshot keys and backlighting, and I almost don't care what it costs. I'll be lining up around the block Apple store style.
Other ideas:
- Full NKRO reworking of circuitry
- MX-style Keycap stems?
This would be the goddamned holy grail for me.
2 You're asking for too much, and it won't garner the support needed to make it even remotely affordable.
Post by: ptiede on Tue, 29 January 2019, 21:41:21
Oh man.The model F due to its capacitive nature is naturally NKRO, unlike regular cherry switches that require diodes to complete the same feat.
Make a model with a standard "IBM Enhanced Keyboard" fullsize layout in black with doubleshot keys and backlighting, and I almost don't care what it costs. I'll be lining up around the block Apple store style.
Other ideas:
- Full NKRO reworking of circuitry
- MX-style Keycap stems?
This would be the goddamned holy grail for me.
Post by: mattlach on Tue, 29 January 2019, 21:55:43
2 You're asking for too much, and it won't garner the support needed to make it even remotely affordable.
I assumed as much, but one can always dream. I can't be the only person who would be interested in a modern featured buckling spring.
The model F due to its capacitive nature is naturally NKRO, unlike regular cherry switches that require diodes to complete the same feat.
I did not know that. I incorrectly assumed it behaved the same as the Model M, just with different key feel. Thanks for setting me straight.
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 30 January 2019, 00:03:09
2 You're asking for too much, and it won't garner the support needed to make it even remotely affordable.
I assumed as much, but one can always dream. I can't be the only person who would be interested in a modern featured buckling spring.The model F due to its capacitive nature is naturally NKRO, unlike regular cherry switches that require diodes to complete the same feat.
I did not know that. I incorrectly assumed it behaved the same as the Model M, just with different key feel. Thanks for setting me straight.
Do a search for the "Model MF" (I think it was only on Deskthority though). It's a conversion kit to make a Model M SSK into a capacitive BS board; however, I think it was canceled before it got off the ground. There was another IC or GB for some capacitive PCBs for the SSK more recently here on GH that just required a bolt mod and F style flippers; I don't know what happened to that. But as far as I know, all efforts have been for SSKs and not fullsize Ms. Anywho, your interest may garner more support in those threads. This GB is already a done deal in terms of design. Ellipse has put years into this, and I doubt he'll do it again especially with a new design that requires new molds and prototyping.
Though, if it's the zinc case for a Model M that you're after, I haven't seen anything like that. It would be pretty cool.
Post by: mattlach on Wed, 30 January 2019, 14:45:24
Just throwing the idea out there in case he decides to turn this into a business.
I mean, he has made tooling and everything. I'm guessing it's not just going to be thrown away after a single group buy run :p
Post by: esquilax on Wed, 30 January 2019, 16:15:50
I mean, he has made tooling and everything. I'm guessing it's not just going to be thrown away after a single group buy run :p
My understanding is that the tooling is going away after two runs.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 February 2019, 19:59:42
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 February 2019, 18:42:47
For the sublimation ink I will be sublimating samples to production keys after the jig is assembled. Will post photos of course.
One of the owners of the sublimation print shop I've been talking with told me he worked on the IBM Selectric key legend application (non-sublimated) in the early 1980s! He said the process involved a special hard dry ink printed to hard plastic sheets and then transferred to the keys.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 07 February 2019, 17:45:45
[attachimg=1]
They forgot to mail enough space bar wire stabilizers so I can only send 3 more sets for the time being if you want the wire stabilizer (I can also send out sets without the stabilizer).
Below is the list of expected key set contents. The installed printed key sets will get the full 104 keys, plus an extra printed 1U 0 Ins key for the F77 right side block.
[attachimg=2]
A mountain of keys!
[attachimg=3]
Post by: joey on Thu, 07 February 2019, 17:48:44
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 07 February 2019, 17:57:00
As a note I only have unprinted keys available to ship this week.
Post by: joey on Thu, 07 February 2019, 17:58:44
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 07 February 2019, 18:05:38
The more Model F spare parts produced and out there, the better! Less of a need to cannibalize Model F keyboards for parts.
Post by: joey on Thu, 07 February 2019, 18:09:05
Post by: kennardsmith on Thu, 07 February 2019, 18:31:48
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 February 2019, 23:42:05
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 February 2019, 21:43:48
As a note the colors in the photo are not representative of the actual colors (the photo appears a bit brighter).
Another two custom built pieces of the jig for dye sublimation arrived today. Will continue assembly and additional testing. Just need another 3-4 weeks from now for the remaining parts.
I reviewed the latest spring assembly samples today. Spring machine 2 is excellent, perfect! Only 1 bad assembly requiring adjustment out of 20 total assemblies. If all the springs are like spring 2 samples then they will likely be approved!
Spring machine 1 has 10 good and 11 bad springs so it is not approved.
Spring machine 3 needs adjustment/improvement. 14 decent assemblies and 6 not good assemblies.
Post by: Acereconkeys on Thu, 14 February 2019, 13:53:42
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Mon, 18 February 2019, 13:16:09
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 18 February 2019, 14:01:04
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 February 2019, 20:42:20
A special thanks to Zed who has just about finished the US ANSI layout. As posted a while back, Zed has been making all the fonts for this project, making sure they are accurately representative of the early IBM Model F fonts, with some updates for the more recent Model M style keys and making them match those of the Model F.
If you'd like to see the extra/custom legends available here is a new product page showing all the options: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/new-custom-legend-keycaps/
The factory reopens next week. The goal for the factory is to assemble some test keyboards based on my instructions, and then fully assemble and ship to me the first few hundred keyboards in March and April. Those who ordered the earliest and those with low/custom serial numbers will be going out first. Currently about 150 of the 1500 ordered keyboards are low serial.
As noted about 10 days ago, the factory is still trying to produce the spring/flipper assembly machines. Their redesigned machines' first samples showed one perfectly working machine (machine 2) and two machines that still needed work. Assembly may be delayed if these machines are not ready.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 22 February 2019, 10:39:17
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 22 February 2019, 17:06:39
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 February 2019, 18:04:09
"February update 2: Passed $700,000! Dye sublimation jig for the keys, spring assembly, factory reopens after holiday break"
The big update is that we have passed the $700,000 order mark this month!
Yes Glod - you can currently order full printed ANSI and ISO sets for Model M and Model F keyboards here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-set-of-brand-new-production-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/
Given the small differences and variations in keycap colors over the decades of buckling spring production, I recommend replacing all key caps in a set at once instead of mixing new with old.
pixelpusher - yes anyone who wants to can feel free to message me and I will send an order summary. I'll send yours over PM soon.
Looks like the current layouts people asked for are US, UK, Danish, Swedish/Finnish, Norwegian, French, German, and a few asked for Swiss French, Swiss German, or Latin American Spanish (one each). Also a couple people wanted JIS or APL sets from Unicomp.
The goal is to make the layout legends closely resemble those of the Model M, but with the thicker XT style appearance. There will be no sublegends though, except for Front Printed F1, etc. keys in each language.
I expect that those front legends on the 4704 V, B, and N keys will be available as extras not included with the main sets, along with SysRq and Break front printed Print Screen and Pause keys.
Post by: Cods on Sat, 23 February 2019, 17:17:35
Is there a way on your site to buy some of the ‘sets’ named in the pictures?
(puts on his kid in a lolly* shop voice)
May I have two of these in pearl
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/d0inL0j.png)
and one of these in pearl
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/umCGzuz.png)
and two of these in pearl, please ;D
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SC8TI3I.png)
(*candy, for our North American friends)
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 February 2019, 17:51:09
Post by: Cods on Sat, 23 February 2019, 18:51:31
Thanks for the extraordinarily fast response.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 February 2019, 09:41:43
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 February 2019, 15:39:34
Please let me know if you're interested. Each front printed key would be $4, same as the other extra keys. They would all be printed black, not gray. It would just be the num pad type keys in the main block, not the other front printed keys on the below keyboards.
Thanks to forum member Zed the key legend offerings will be expanded!
If anyone wants any customized keys that others may also be interested in, now is the time to post your suggestions! The sublimation template sheets have not yet been finalized.
1391472 style:
[attachimg=1]
1392980 terminal SSK style:
[attachimg=2]
HHKB style:
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Meowsaur on Mon, 25 February 2019, 11:46:18
Just thought I'd check before buying some less-than-par caps off eBay.
Post by: DZed on Mon, 25 February 2019, 13:15:56
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
And this should answer some of the recently posted questions/requests. The HHKB front print and SSK Num Pad are still under review AFAIK. I have not included the Mac specific HHKB front print but if the yelling is loud enough and Ellipse agrees... Obviously, the icons are just as close as I could get with KLE. My thinking is to 'IBMify' stuff like the media icons and HHKB front print abbreviations. The Ins and Del icons from the F122 set will be like the Beamspring/terminal ones.
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
Post by: str8away on Mon, 25 February 2019, 15:14:10
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 February 2019, 16:43:16
Those ordering extra key sets and the custom color sets help cover cost overruns and added costs for the extra colors, which is why the extras are priced a bit higher than ordering full key sets and why full key sets cost more than if included as part of a new Model F keyboard. The extra colors require significant cost because they are custom mixed and the minimum order quantity of the high end PBT material for each color is large.
Meowsaur sorry that would require new tooling. orihalcon does sell original relegendable keys to my knowledge.
Post by: ccc24 on Sun, 03 March 2019, 13:34:23
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 March 2019, 13:41:46
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 March 2019, 18:42:19
Dye sub testing update: I did some quick tests but determined I needed to replace some parts and order some additional parts for the jig before properly starting the key dye sublimation tests. Will continue testing once these parts arrive.
Assembly phase update: The factory expects to send assembled spring/flipper samples this week or next week, and hopefully a few completed fully assembled keyboards with unprinted keys (following the keyboard assembly manual I sent them). Once these assemblies are approved, the factory will start mass assembly and ship about 500 units at a time to me. I am hoping the first 500 can be ready to ship to me by the end of next month. Then it will be 3-4 weeks on a container ship. If all goes well then May-June will possibly see the first shipping units.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 05 March 2019, 20:02:26
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 07 March 2019, 21:04:59
They are fully assembling 1 of each keyboard (the 4 keyboard variations compact F62, classic F62, compact F77, classic F77) as a test, along with sending me the spring samples from the newly built attacher machines.
The other good news is that the factory is designing and adapting machines to do most of the assembly work! We are expecting pick and place for the inner foam, barrels to the top inner assembly, flippers/springs, etc. This should rapidly speed up assembly time compared to what would have been assembly by hand.
I have asked for some videos of the semi-automated assembly process in action but here are some prototype shots of one of the assembly machines (not sure which process step).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 08 March 2019, 11:59:06
Update from the factory: the factory has made good progress on the assembly preparation.
They are fully assembling 1 of each keyboard (the 4 keyboard variations compact F62, classic F62, compact F77, classic F77) as a test, along with sending me the spring samples from the newly built attacher machines.
The other good news is that the factory is designing and adapting machines to do most of the assembly work! We are expecting pick and place for the inner foam, barrels to the top inner assembly, flippers/springs, etc. This should rapidly speed up assembly time compared to what would have been assembly by hand.
I have asked for some videos of the semi-automated assembly process in action but here are some prototype shots of one of the assembly machines (not sure which process step).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing so much about the manufacturing process; it's very interesting stuff. It feels as if the finish line is finally in sight.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 11 March 2019, 16:42:03
F+J (no homing bump) H+U+N+T (with homing bump), for colemak and dvorak, or at the very least is it possible for F+J to be printed without homing.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 March 2019, 16:43:48
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 March 2019, 21:47:28
We now have video of the custom Bottom Inner Assembly machine! Here is a video of the machine that properly assembles the bottom inner assembly (F62 ultra compact specifically in this video).
Very cool to watch this in action!
Still waiting on the assembled spring/flipper and keyboard production samples before mass assembly is approved to start. They should go out in the coming days.
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 14 March 2019, 16:03:18
Post by: SixtyLife on Thu, 14 March 2019, 16:20:03
I’ve never owned a model F. Is the bottom assembly just pressure fitted? Only familiar with model m rivet system.yup - exactly as shown in vid
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 March 2019, 20:18:22
If the assembled samples meet my standards then mass assembly of Brand New Model F Keyboards will start!
They have also completed another pneumatic spring attacher machine:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: ro0llo on Sun, 17 March 2019, 14:32:42
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 March 2019, 15:01:09
Post by: digi on Mon, 18 March 2019, 11:32:24
Post by: APL4 on Wed, 20 March 2019, 12:02:45
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 March 2019, 17:45:10
Post by: keysRus on Wed, 20 March 2019, 22:49:32
Post by: digi on Wed, 20 March 2019, 22:52:20
I can front print F1-F12 only on the number row keys of any of the offered layouts (US, UK, Spanish, French, German, Nordic, etc.) in any available color (pearl/pebble/blue/dark gray). Sorry I do not offer APL or other custom legends or custom front printing.
Ellipse, I know you're busy, is there a place where we can confirm our shipping address on our original order or something? Ty
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 March 2019, 07:05:28
digi, the billing and shipping addresses should be in the order confirmation email. Feel free to message me if your address has changed and I will note the update.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 March 2019, 23:05:55
After evaluating the latest samples, today I approved full assembly of the Brand New Model F Keyboards! It took a lot more time than expected (!) but I think the current quality of the keyboards has made it well worth ironing out the QC issues.
The plan is for the factory to assemble as many keyboards as possible and ship them at the end of April, with additional batches every month or so. This way, orders can start going out as soon as June.
On the dye sublimation front, I am waiting on some additional replacement parts for the setup before I can continue with the dye sublimation testing. Two more parts require a custom-built solution different from my current setup. Both parts will be ordered in the US to save time. Should be a few more weeks until they are finished and in hand.
Post by: LightningXI on Mon, 25 March 2019, 01:53:48
Major Project Milestone - Full Assembly Stage Begins!Congratulations!
After evaluating the latest samples, today I approved full assembly of the Brand New Model F Keyboards! It took a lot more time than expected (!) but I think the current quality of the keyboards has made it well worth ironing out the QC issues.
The plan is for the factory to assemble as many keyboards as possible and ship them at the end of April, with additional batches every month or so. This way, orders can start going out as soon as June.
On the dye sublimation front, I am waiting on some additional replacement parts for the setup before I can continue with the dye sublimation testing. Two more parts require a custom-built solution different from my current setup. Both parts will be ordered in the US to save time. Should be a few more weeks until they are finished and in hand.
Beyond excited for this to finally begin (and close in on the finish). I wish these manufacturing teams all the best! Can't wait to see what results from the past few years' efforts.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 25 March 2019, 01:54:37
Post by: ro0llo on Mon, 25 March 2019, 12:23:21
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 March 2019, 17:16:48
Feel free to see assembly photos in recent posts - including the machine that closes the Model F inner assembly.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 March 2019, 18:54:16
Regarding the expectations for whether your order goes out in the first batch, it depends on how many keyboards the factory finishes by the April 30th deadline for the first shipment and how many people order "skip the line"/low/custom serial keyboards from now until then (so far ~162 low serials).
Keyboards can still be upgraded to low serial if you want to skip the line.
To help with everyone's estimations, below is an approximation of the number of keyboards ordered each month through the end of last month - please note that ~162 of these will be prioritized with the first shipment out.
The intention is to ship as closely as possible by order date, earliest first, but with the low serial supporters sent out first.
If they finish 400-500 (maybe too ambitious an estimate!), maybe all the low serials and most of 2016 will finally go out in the April shipment.
2016 369
Jan 77
Feb 87
Mar 17
Apr 9
May 13
Jun 44
Jul 20
Aug 21
Sep 7
Oct 31
Nov 29
Dec 14
2017 608
Jan 34
Feb 22
Mar 18
Apr 29
May 45
Jun 51
Jul 207
Aug 58
Sep 26
Oct 44
Nov 42
Dec 32
2018 508
Jan 35
Feb 42
Mar 50
Apr 43
May 37
Jun 52
Jul 43
Aug 45
Sep 53
Oct 42
Nov 39
Dec 27
2019 68
Jan 36
Feb 23
Post by: cicada on Wed, 27 March 2019, 23:50:00
Post by: DZed on Thu, 28 March 2019, 13:36:20
And a reference pic to show what the missing icons and terminal keys will look like.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/DSC_6470.jpg (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/DSC_6470.jpg)
Note: Home and End arrow icons will be like the front print on the 'Rule' key and it's kind of hard to see but the Solenoid volume icon is on the front of the PF24 key (very similar to that used on Beamsprings).
I also worked up some extra keys for the SSK Num Pad set for those who may wish to use both the front print F row and num pad legends.
[attach=1]
[attach=4]
[attach=2]
Edit: Added comma options to number pad sets.
Post by: ctm on Thu, 28 March 2019, 14:23:58
Post by: aznairjordan on Thu, 28 March 2019, 15:01:26
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 March 2019, 18:01:58
Post by: macclack on Thu, 28 March 2019, 23:05:53
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 March 2019, 15:12:55
Post by: Pete on Fri, 29 March 2019, 17:21:15
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 March 2019, 18:52:31
Post by: Cods on Fri, 29 March 2019, 23:36:51
Pete, the plan is to consolidate all orders from one person and ship them together, treated as if all orders were made on the date of your earliest order. So if you order a second keyboard this month and one last year, both keyboards will be in the 2018 queue.
...and damnit, that level of forethought and consideration has tipped me over the edge into adding an additional F62 to my 2016 earlybird order.
Ellipse, prepare for a request for an extra keyboard plus a bunch of keys from me!
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 29 March 2019, 23:44:45
Pete, the plan is to consolidate all orders from one person and ship them together, treated as if all orders were made on the date of your earliest order. So if you order a second keyboard this month and one last year, both keyboards will be in the 2018 queue.
that's the smart way to do it, nice
Post by: Molehasmoles on Sat, 30 March 2019, 02:45:16
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 March 2019, 08:49:28
Looks like the current international layouts people asked for are UK, Danish, Swedish/Finnish, Norwegian, French, German, and 3 people asked for Swiss French, Swiss German, or Latin American Spanish (one each). Hoping for all but not sure if the final three will be made.
Mole, please feel free to note it on the product page, notes text box, or in the order notes text box during checkout.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 30 March 2019, 08:55:27
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sat, 30 March 2019, 10:59:55
HSD 10cpi :)Seconded
Post by: tron on Sat, 30 March 2019, 11:15:56
Post by: macclack on Sat, 30 March 2019, 21:48:15
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 31 March 2019, 04:53:37
Post by: zacheadams on Sun, 31 March 2019, 20:13:38
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 01 April 2019, 22:33:35
Mass assembly continues this month.
Post by: tectonicplate on Mon, 01 April 2019, 23:09:07
Post by: TestostoBoost on Wed, 03 April 2019, 07:01:14
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 April 2019, 19:37:59
If you'd like to switch your layout please let me know over email/PM.
If you'd like to review the expected specifics of your key set please see this page on Unicomp's web site: https://support.pckeyboard.com/knowledgebase.php?category=2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1174
Black unprinted keys 132
Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 113
Use your own keys 43
Custom/TBD 8
International Layouts:
UK 45
Swedish-Finnish 26
German 17
Norwegian 10
French 6
Swiss German 3
Latin American Spanish 3
JIS (Unicomp) 2
Danish 2
APL Keys (Unicomp) 2
Spanish 1
Turkish-Q 1
Hebrew English 1
Russian 1
Korean 1
Swiss 1
Dutch 1
Brazilian ABNT 1
Arabic 1
Grand Total 1595
Post by: andy74 on Sun, 07 April 2019, 01:39:43
Had to order a F77 :). Good thing I didn't miss out.
Andy
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 07 April 2019, 03:15:35
Here is an update on the languages/layouts requested for the 1,595 keyboards ordered so far (5 away from 1,600!). Some of the less common sets will be provided by Unicomp most likely.
If you'd like to switch your layout please let me know over email/PM.
If you'd like to review the expected specifics of your key set please see this page on Unicomp's web site: https://support.pckeyboard.com/knowledgebase.php?category=2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1174
Black unprinted keys 132
Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 113
Use your own keys 43
Custom/TBD 8
International Layouts:
UK 45
Swedish-Finnish 26
German 17
Norwegian 10
French 6
Swiss German 3
Latin American Spanish 3
JIS (Unicomp) 2
Danish 2
APL Keys (Unicomp) 2
Spanish 1
Turkish-Q 1
Hebrew English 1
Russian 1
Korean 1
Swiss 1
Dutch 1
Brazilian ABNT 1
Arabic 1
Grand Total 1595
for anyone keeping count, that's about 5% non-ANSI (my count is 123ish/1595, i'm not so sharp at 4 AM), which is what everyone says the market share is
ISO loses again
EDIT: someone with better math skills than me has told me that it's closer to 8% which is actually slightly higher so my ****post isn't as good now
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sun, 07 April 2019, 03:54:13
It's still laughably smallHere is an update on the languages/layouts requested for the 1,595 keyboards ordered so far (5 away from 1,600!). Some of the less common sets will be provided by Unicomp most likely.
If you'd like to switch your layout please let me know over email/PM.
If you'd like to review the expected specifics of your key set please see this page on Unicomp's web site: https://support.pckeyboard.com/knowledgebase.php?category=2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout)1174
Black unprinted keys132
Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends)113
Use your own keys43
Custom/TBD8
International Layouts:
UK45
Swedish-Finnish26
German17
Norwegian10
French6
Swiss German3
Latin American Spanish3
JIS (Unicomp)2
Danish2
APL Keys (Unicomp)2
Spanish1
Turkish-Q1
Hebrew English1
Russian1
Korean1
Swiss1
Dutch1
Brazilian ABNT1
Arabic1
Grand Total1595
for anyone keeping count, that's about 5% non-ANSI (my count is 123ish/1595, i'm not so sharp at 4 AM), which is what everyone says the market share is
ISO loses again
EDIT: someone with better math skills than me has told me that it's closer to 8% which is actually slightly higher so my ****post isn't as good now
Post by: jzono1 on Mon, 08 April 2019, 06:48:22
Mentioning it here too for visibility. Would be neat, and if it could be a direct drop-in... yeah. It'd be awesome.
Even if a direct drop-in would be significantly pricier than just piecing it together on my own. I'd pay a premium for it. Anyone else feel that way?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 08 April 2019, 07:01:41
If anyone is interested and able to help with the testing/prototyping/PCB design please post on the CommonSense project thread.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 April 2019, 18:37:09
The final part of the dye sublimation jig should arrive later this week - then I'll be able to resume dye sublimation testing.
Post by: Cods on Wed, 17 April 2019, 03:50:52
Instabuy.
Actually, plus 3, one for each keyboard.
Sorry, no technical skills so I’m no help, but BT4 or BT5, able to support multiple pairing (so easy to switch between ~3 target devices (PC, Mac, smartphone, iPad etc).
Post by: DZed on Thu, 18 April 2019, 20:08:00
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 April 2019, 23:02:46
The factory expects to complete all the currently ordered keyboards by the end of May - great news!
20,000 flippers+springs have completed assembly. They are continuing to assemble the rest of them.
They expect to complete 200 keyboards by the end of the month. Because of this I was thinking of waiting an extra week or so to get about 500 keyboards in the first shipment. The 200 figure is lower than expected because they noticed a slight error in the bottom inner assembly radius on many of the completed parts and are re-bending these finished parts before closing the inner assemblies. The IBM XT keyboards' radii were consistently perfect so the new Model F's need to be as well!
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 18 April 2019, 23:22:30
The factory expects to complete all the early bird keyboards by the end of May - great news!
itshappening.gif
just in time for keycon
Post by: un_related on Thu, 18 April 2019, 23:27:04
The factory expects to complete all the early bird keyboards by the end of May - great news!
itshappening.gif
just in time for keycon
If that's the case, could we just get the boards delivered at KeyCon for attendees that are in that first batch?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 April 2019, 23:37:40
The boards will be sent in priority of when they were ordered, with the low serial orders sent out first. Also I still need to do the final testing and dye sublimation.
Post by: un_related on Fri, 19 April 2019, 09:01:37
Do not forget about the month in the shipping container from China!
Fair, haha.
Post by: DZed on Fri, 19 April 2019, 19:26:01
[attachimg=1]
Post by: darkcruix on Sun, 21 April 2019, 14:34:56
Love your work guys - can't wait to see the first samples of the dye-sub process.
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 22 April 2019, 10:12:07
A little nicer presentation than the previous pic with new Scroll, Num Lock and Alt Gr (thanks matt3o!) icons.
(Attachment Link)
Those icon mods look really great. I may consider adding those to my order.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 April 2019, 07:34:26
Here is a video of manual installation of the key sets to template sheets before the dye sublimation process (I am taking care of the dye sublimation but the factory is preparing everything to save time). Check out the other project videos in the YouTube channel for the custom-built machines helping with mass assembly. Everyone gets the full 104 key set when they order a regular key set for their keyboard.
Post by: supamesican on Tue, 23 April 2019, 10:59:34
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 April 2019, 21:49:16
Below are photos of sublimation test # 7. The new equipment is producing good test results. There is a bit too much bleed ("dye migration") but it is within IBM tolerances it seems (new and original sublimated Model F keys below). Sorry the photos are not in perfect focus.
As a note the key legends were hand placed for the test and the alignment and quality of the below images are not representative of the final product!
More testing will be done to optimize all the variables before mass dye sublimation begins.
Can you tell which one is the original Model F and which one is the new Model F?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 23 April 2019, 22:18:39
Post by: cherrymxsilent@gmail.com on Tue, 23 April 2019, 22:38:52
Do not forget about the month in the shipping container from China!
The boards will be sent in priority of when they were ordered, with the low serial orders sent out first. Also I still need to do the final testing and dye sublimation.
I hope that everything gets a safe transit. I'm just wondering what the ship will look like, where in the ship will the container be placed
Post by: cherrymxsilent@gmail.com on Wed, 24 April 2019, 03:35:34
Post by: snevok on Wed, 24 April 2019, 12:06:39
Is there a way to make these keyboards quieter? Any quiet/ soft touch evolution?
Check out the floss mod. It affects the feel a bit, but it's the best way I've seen to make buckling springs quieter.
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 24 April 2019, 12:53:12
Is there a way to make these keyboards quieter? Any quiet/ soft touch evolution?
Defeats the point
Also seconding floss mod though
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 April 2019, 13:58:42
I also posted information on the grease mod on my web site blog:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/a-quieter-model-f-keyboard-how-to-reduce-mod-the-sound-of-your-model-f-keyboard/
Copied below:
In addition to the floss mod described on the Geekhack/Deskthority keyboard forums, another mod to consider is the grease mod, researched and described by the below YouTube user. Also in my research I have found that pressing the springs down all the way on the flipper (normally there is a 0.2 to 0.3mm gap) reduces the ringing. I do not offer and have not tried any of these mods but below is some information to consider.
The purpose of the grease mod is to reduce the reverberation/ringing after each key is pressed.
His comments are copied directly below.
Apply Synco Superlube on the inside of the spring with a metal probe…just enough to dampen the vibration
As an experiment, I tried a few switches on an XT F. I did nothing to the first XT F in the video…you can hear the sound I’m referring to…it’s like a super-loud, much more intense, sharper and “drier” version of what my (in superb condition) 1988-1989 Model M boards sound like. Then on the second board, I did the Alps spring lube trick on the keypad only. The feel is the same, the click sounds great (to me), the actuation force is ever so slightly less. But the annoying (to me) spring noise virtually disappears.
video 1 – detailed key sound (lubed keypad; unmodified other keys):
video 2 – typing demo of the unmodified F:
video 3 – typing demo of the fully spring lubed F:
Post by: vewy_nice on Wed, 01 May 2019, 11:46:44
Turns out that if I had checked it in another 24 days, it would have been exactly 2 years ago.
Time sure does fly by! :))
I'm so excited to see the final products start rolling out, though!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 May 2019, 13:37:45
We are still aiming for completion of all keyboards by the end of this month.
As noted earlier the factory caught a production error in the curve radius of the bottom inner assemblies and has been correcting all those parts before those parts can be assembled. Because of this error it was not practical to ship the first 500 keyboards first so now the expectation is that all the keyboards can ship soon after the end of this month.
As noted earlier I have ordered extras as part of the early bird round so you can still order a keyboard and have it ship as part of the early bird round!
Meanwhile the factory is assembling all the other parts. So far the spring assembly and inner assembly closing is being done by custom built machines and the key, barrel, and spring installation is being done manually (they noted that the pick and place machine design for these custom components would exceed the cost of labor).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: LightningXI on Sun, 05 May 2019, 13:39:51
Mass assembly continues at the factory. This photo of in progress F62 inner assemblies is from a week ago (the factories had a holiday break this first week of May).
We are still aiming for completion of all keyboards by the end of this month.
As noted earlier the factory caught a production error in the curve radius of the bottom inner assemblies and has been correcting all those parts before those parts can be assembled. Because of this error it was not practical to ship the first 500 keyboards first so now the expectation is that all the keyboards can ship soon after the end of this month.
As noted earlier I have ordered extras as part of the early bird round so you can still order a keyboard and have it ship as part of the early bird round!
Meanwhile the factory is assembling all the other parts. So far the spring assembly and inner assembly closing is being done by custom built machines and the key, barrel, and spring installation is being done manually (they noted that the pick and place machine design for these custom components would exceed the cost of labor).
(Attachment Link)
These news have me very excited for the board that is to come. Thanks for the update!
Post by: Pete on Tue, 07 May 2019, 05:14:39
...
Time sure does fly by! :))
I'm so excited to see the final products start rolling out, though!
I'm getting excited too. I think I have moved home twice since I first placed my order.
Post by: Krakob on Wed, 08 May 2019, 19:35:00
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 May 2019, 19:40:05
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 May 2019, 15:16:26
The expectation is still for all assembly to finish by month end, though the now-resolved bottom inner assembly issue may delay things by a week or two.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: euphxenos on Sat, 11 May 2019, 16:07:27
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 May 2019, 20:41:51
euphxenos - just individual keycaps for now. I have to get a few more aspects of the sublimation right before I focus on pin registration to get an entire key set accurately aligned and produced. No new updates yet on the dye sublimation.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 17 May 2019, 05:49:31
Here are some more photos of mass assembly at the factory. As noted earlier, mass assembly was slowed due to the bottom inner assembly parts needing to be re-curved, and then the stamping tool to re-curve these parts broke (has since been repaired). As requested they are storing the assembled flippers/springs in open air (not in sealed bags) to help maximize the quality of the Model F sound (exposure to moving air/humidity). Also pictured is a production styrofoam for shipping the classic case keyboards (the ultra compact variations will get another type of foam packaging).Love these progress reports and the excitement is so real.
euphxenos - just individual keycaps for now. I have to get a few more aspects of the sublimation right before I focus on pin registration to get an entire key set accurately aligned and produced. No new updates yet on the dye sublimation.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: zacheadams on Fri, 17 May 2019, 09:30:21
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 17 May 2019, 10:11:54
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 17 May 2019, 11:08:09
Yeah, I hope someone is archiving these reports (especially the photos!). It'll make an excellent story when this is all over.
I believe Ellipse said he plans on writing a book about his experience working on this project.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 May 2019, 17:52:41
Post by: Cods on Fri, 17 May 2019, 19:01:55
On another note - that tease of a Bluetooth module... how real is that? ...because I would instabuy one for each of the three boards I’ve ordered!
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 20 May 2019, 09:23:22
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 21 May 2019, 18:39:27
Here is the latest status of the Bluetooth Model F module: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/bluetooth-connectivity/
Per DMA: "I have a hardware-complete prototype (oshpark PCB with 5267, PSoC 4 BLE module and buck converter/Li-ion charger on it). No power management modes on any of the parts - but lasts about 20 hours on a 500mAh single-cell, so PM is not a pressing problem. Can probably be made to last 40-60 hours - that would be cool.
I have draft BLE firmware (advertises and connects, transmits keypresses - but needs to be made user-friendly because right now you Need To Know Too Much for those things to happen). This needs work.
There are PSoC 6 BLE modules now, promising lower power consumption and BLE 5.0 - probably need to look at those instead of PSoC 4."
Yes I think a Bluetooth (BLE) wireless Model F will be in the future. I have discussed with Deskthority user DMA who has designed his CommonSense controller as an alternative to the xwhatsit controller used in this project. He was able to get the F122 to run for about 20 hours on a 500mah Lithium Ion battery using the PSoC 4 BLE module and Cyprus development board (you can use this board as is for the Model F to my knowledge).
https://www.cypress.com/documentation/development-kitsboards/cy8ckit-059-psoc-5lp-prototyping-kit-onboard-programmer-and
The CommonSense controller can be designed to be a drop in replacement for the Brand New Model F Keyboards’ xwhatsit controller.
Currently the CommonSense project has working prototypes but other than that it seems to be on hold. Here is the github page in case anyone is interested in contributing. Please do check out the deskthority thread and post questions there.
https://github.com/dmaone/CommonSense
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13988
It would be great if someone could modify DMA’s diptrace files to make it a drop in replacement for the Model F xwhatsit controller – please do let me know if you are able to help! A great first step would be to have someone update the diptrace PCB to make the Cyprus as a drop in replacement to the xwhatsit controller so people could replace their keyboard's xwhatsit controller (probably just need to rearrange the pins on the PCB to match the xwhatsit pinout.).
However you don't need to make your own PCB. You can pay $15 or so for a premade board and attach it to the Model F capacitive PCB by wires. Then buy the compatible bluetooth module and battery and work from there.
Post by: xondat on Tue, 21 May 2019, 18:43:26
Yes this is correct. I am saving the photos and hope they will be part of the book.
Instant buy for me, I bet any page would be interesting.
Post by: Cods on Fri, 24 May 2019, 20:49:50
Post by: DZed on Sat, 25 May 2019, 18:23:46
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 May 2019, 07:00:28
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: vewy_nice on Thu, 30 May 2019, 08:23:11
Well, there's always later ;)
Post by: spring_forward on Thu, 30 May 2019, 14:55:14
I totally would have asked a LONG time ago if an APL keyset would have been possible :p
I'm assuming that Unicomp's APL set would be compatible: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/USAPLSET
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 31 May 2019, 10:48:43
I have a bunch of unicomp keys, and they're some hot nasty garbage in comparison to any one of the other original IBM keysets I have.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 31 May 2019, 22:58:52
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 June 2019, 22:54:23
The plan is still to finish all assembly and packaging by month end.
I sent them 137 unique keyboard variations to assemble, based on what everyone has ordered plus the extra keyboards I ordered for the latecomers (still have some left for the early bird round but running very low on early bird Industrial Gray F77 cases - it would be much appreciated if anyone could message me to switch to Black or Off-White/Beige!).
Also as a note, all offered key layouts have a front printed F1 etc. option with legends specific to their layout.
Also nice seeing everyone at Keycon last Saturday! There was a great turnout and over 430 people signed up!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 05 June 2019, 23:32:25
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 07 June 2019, 09:57:54
Final artwork for all of the extra key sets with a few minor additions and changes.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
are these ready to order? i want them all!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 June 2019, 09:48:44
Yep OK to order keys listed on that page. Please specify key size, color, and legend text (including the category of key as specified on that page).
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 08 June 2019, 13:33:46
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 June 2019, 17:03:19
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 June 2019, 17:01:14
Assembly issues earlier this month: assembled incorrect layout for about 100 units (had to disassemble and adjust; they are working on training their factory team for assembly), bottom inner assembly radius issue mentioned before, some zinc cases are bent a little too much (there should be no visible gap in the cases; the way to fix this is by using a rubber mallet!), some PCBs had some factory defects and are being re-made (I ordered extras of each component so as not to delay assembly if some parts were bad).
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 20 June 2019, 05:24:35
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 June 2019, 22:32:45
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 25 June 2019, 23:18:57
As of now, the factory has completed assembling 700 keyboards and can assemble about 50 keyboards in one day. They are continuing to work on ramping up the daily capability to speed up the remaining assembly. We are now looking at completion of mass assembly in July!Super work Ellipse. This is one hell of a project.
Post by: euphxenos on Tue, 25 June 2019, 23:25:51
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 June 2019, 16:54:16
Someone just messaged me the following option for a wireless Model F and I was wondering if anyone has looked into it:
The Handheld Scientific BT-500 Bluetooth Adapter for Keyboard & Mouse:
http://handheldsci.com/kb/
Using this adapter, removed from its case, you could possibly fit it inside the spacious case of the Model F.
Looks like it has one end to attach the USB cable from the controller and the other end to connect any USB battery.
Regarding the dye sub, yes I will be doing all the dye sub. Most of the dye sub will be done while I am doing the final testing of the keyboards so as not to hold things up (and as much as possible before the shipment arrives). Still, it will take months to examine and mail out each order one at a time.
Post by: euphxenos on Wed, 26 June 2019, 17:40:02
Regarding the dye sub, yes I will be doing all the dye sub. Most of the dye sub will be done while I am doing the final testing of the keyboards so as not to hold things up (and as much as possible before the shipment arrives). Still, it will take months to examine and mail out each order one at a time.
Yes, I understand that you'll be doing the dye sub of the keycaps. Have you got all the details of your dye sub process finalized yet? Have you been able to use your process to successfully dye sub an entire keycap set? From past comments, it sounded like you had only made a few test keycaps and hadn't figured it all out yet. What's the QA process you're planning to follow to examine each keyboard? What are your criteria for passing or failing a keyboard? How long do you think it will take you per keyboard?
With 1300 keyboards, each time you add five minutes of work to your process for each keyboard, that's an extra 108 hours (13.5 8-hour days) over the course of the entire project. So even if you just spend an extra five minutes on the keycaps for each board once you get started, it's significant. If you spend an hour total on each board, for 1300 keyboards, that's one person working normal workdays for over 7 months. I'm curious how much thought you've given the final logistics of this project, given how large its grown.
Another way of asking all this is: when you say it will take months to examine and mail out each keyboard, do you mean 2 months, or more like 6-12 months?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 June 2019, 18:14:03
I am still working on the dye sub - it is not all figured out yet. I might get a second complete dye sub setup to speed things up if needed.
I can't give any ballpark answers yet regarding timing. As noted earlier the factory is doing the final inspection so it depends on how good the QC is on their side - the better the QC the faster I can get things done.
Post by: depletedvespene on Fri, 28 June 2019, 19:17:18
would it be possible to order them by sets? also, the ergodox set... is that a if someone ever makes a buckling spring ergodox?
There are several form factors waiting to be done for the first time with Buckling springs... :cool:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 June 2019, 12:24:53
Current order breakdown:
F77 907
F62 412
Compact F77 240
Compact F62 141
Grand Total 1700
F77
Industrial Gray 486
Off-White/Beige 299
Black 106
True Red 6
PANTONE 14-5002 TPX Silver Gray 5
Silver Gray 3
Another color 2
F77 Total 907
F62
Off-White/Beige 210
Industrial Gray 131
Black 60
True Red 10
Silver Gray 1
F62 Total 412
Compact F77
Black 150
Regular Gray 82
Dark Blue 4
Carolina Blue 4
Compact F77 Total 240
Compact F62
Black 92
Standard Gray 47
Dark Blue 2
Compact F62 Total 141
Grand Total 1700
Key Set Types:
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1267
Black unprinted keys 143
Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 112
UK 47
Use your own keys / use other color new keys 40
Swedish-Finnish 28
German 18
Norwegian 11
French 6
International layout 4
Danish 3
Swiss German 3
Latin American Spanish 2
APL Keys 2
JIS 2
Spanish 1
Swiss French and German 1
Hebrew English 1
Swiss 1
Arabic 1
Italian 1
Dutch 1
Brilliant white printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
Blue printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1
Korean 1
Russian 1
Brazilian ABNT 1
Grand Total 1700
Layouts:
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 868
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and non-HHKB Split Right Shift 1
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 6
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
DVORAK with HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 1
HHKB split right shift only and split backspace, everything else ANSI Enter 1
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 15
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter, HHKB style Ctrl and Caps Lock 2
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter, short left shift 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 251
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace and short space bar 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, short left shift 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 388
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 4
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
ISO Enter (vertical enter and 2U Left Shift) 1
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 128
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 9
ISO Enter (Vertical Enter And Split Left Shift) And HHKB-Style Split Right Shift, Split Backspace 6
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and non-HHKB Split Right Shift 2
Scumyc ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 7
Split Enter (1.25U enter and split Left Shift) and non-HHKB Split Right Shift 1
Grand Total 1700
F77 Right side block:
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys 657
0-9 and cursor keys 398
Blank 91
0-9 and cursor keys, blue unprinted keys for 5 and 0 1
Grand Total 1147
Extras:
Extra Flipper and Spring 3541
Extra Barrel 1894
Individual Keys 998
4 Extra bumpers 578
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 567
FirstAidKit 425
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 390
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122, PC AT) 145
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 141
Key Cap Puller 122
Extra case 119
xwhatsit Beam Spring or Model F USB controller 57
Extra PCB 5
Extra top inner assembly 3
Extra box + protective custom foam 1
Extra Key Sets
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 499
Add Front Printed F1-F12 12 Key Set?: Yes 310
Add HHKB 6 Key Set?: Yes 117
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 231
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 163
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 20 July 2019, 12:32:47
The factory expects to wrap up mass assembly by mid- to late August. We had some last minute troubles with the foam packaging and boxes (I was not happy with the quality of the production samples and had them remake the samples a few times). Outside foam is finished, but the boxes need another 3 weeks.
The factory also lost some of the classic cases (!) last year during a warehouse move and only discovered the issue recently (they covered almost all of the replacement cost but I still had to cover a lot of the cost - minor price increases for the final round are likely at this point to cover all the overages).
Mass assembly of the keyboards is ongoing. I believe they are about half done.
Post by: ___q on Sat, 20 July 2019, 13:20:10
I ordered an ultra compact F62 and am having some second thoughts on ultra compact vs classic (really, like tenth thoughts after all these years :) ) and am considering adding an extra (black) classic case so that I don't have to regret either decision.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 24 July 2019, 19:41:37
Post by: user 18 on Thu, 25 July 2019, 12:37:29
Post by: esquilax on Thu, 25 July 2019, 13:48:27
Is it still possible to place a new order, or no?
Yes.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 25 July 2019, 16:36:33
Post by: henz on Sun, 28 July 2019, 16:06:09
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 July 2019, 16:22:06
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 29 July 2019, 01:02:37
Sounds fair.
Any news from the factory?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 29 July 2019, 07:21:53
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 03 August 2019, 11:53:05
The factory had to remake many of the bottom inner assemblies as they were out of spec (they could not bend them back to shape accurately). The stamping tool broke and took a while to fix. Production finished on these but plating (the golden color finish) has taken longer than expected from the subcontractor. Plating will finish next week and then final assembly can resume (can't assemble and easily store hundreds of inner assemblies without the bottom inner assembly).
Unfortunately for the relatively low quantities of this project we do not get priority timing at the factories - the finishing factories are especially busy.
While the number of completed keyboards has not increased much recently, in July the factory finished as much as they could without having the remaining bottom inner assemblies, including the key sheet installation (for dye sublimation) and other small item assembly (flipper+spring assembly) so mass assembly will hopefully be able to speed up a bit for the remaining keyboards and finish by the end of August.
Post by: gfunk on Sun, 04 August 2019, 11:00:48
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 07 August 2019, 18:40:03
In 1-2 days the product boxes are shipping to the factory doing the mass assembly. I have requested photos of the boxes. So I expect final mass assembly and packaging to resume next week and finish in the coming weeks for the remaining early bird units.
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 08 August 2019, 07:29:41
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 August 2019, 07:53:07
I have had some better dye sub results with my most recent tests but output is still too variable (some good, some not good test results).
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 August 2019, 07:53:21
I have had some better dye sub results with my most recent tests but output is still too variable (some good, some not good test results).
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 08 August 2019, 11:36:08
Still time to order accessories and keyboards!
Good to hear, thanks! I'll try to get an order in for the extra keys one of these days. Will referencing the original order numbers in the order notes be enough?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 August 2019, 16:33:10
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 August 2019, 21:38:41
Unfortunately they made a mistake on the artwork color (I specified that shade of blue from the rendered artwork posted a while back but they did the artwork in black). We are moving forward with these boxes to avoid any further delays, and I have requested the blue color for the artwork of the final round boxes.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: LightningXI on Thu, 08 August 2019, 21:39:49
Production of the double-walled boxes has finished this week! Below are some photos of the boxes.
Unfortunately they made a mistake on the artwork color (I specified that shade of blue from the rendered artwork posted a while back but they did the artwork in black). We are moving forward with these boxes to avoid any further delays, and I have requested the blue color for the artwork of the final round boxes.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
These are very cool. Good progress!
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 08 August 2019, 21:42:53
Post by: esquilax on Fri, 09 August 2019, 12:30:04
Some cool lookin boxes. I’m glad I chose blanks in the interest of time.
I chose blanks too, but my understanding is that these will get shipped out in low serial, then chronological order.
Is that correct, Ellipse?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 09 August 2019, 19:30:33
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 09 August 2019, 21:13:21
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Sat, 10 August 2019, 00:44:21
Correct - no prioritization for blank keyboards.
Is the idea that the dye sublimation will be a streamlined process by the time the boards are received?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 13 August 2019, 06:50:12
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 13 August 2019, 06:51:29
The boxes have arrived!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: jimboytacos on Wed, 14 August 2019, 13:26:53
If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
I noticed this project is dated back 3 years now....
Post by: romevi on Wed, 14 August 2019, 13:33:41
If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
‾\_(ツ)_/‾
Post by: jimboytacos on Wed, 14 August 2019, 13:48:58
If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
‾\_(ツ)_/‾
Are you shrugging to tell me I might not get it until 2022?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 14 August 2019, 16:17:00
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 14 August 2019, 16:31:16
Nobody knows, man. We get em when we get em. ¯\_( ͠° ͟ʖ °͠ )_/¯If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
‾\_(ツ)_/‾
Are you shrugging to tell me I might not get it until 2022?
Post by: idlemao on Wed, 14 August 2019, 23:26:25
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 15 August 2019, 10:45:13
If I were to order now, how long would it be until it was ready to ship for me?
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Not trying to be rude, but read the last few posts before yours to answer that question.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 August 2019, 16:41:11
They are still on track to finish all early bird assembly by the end of August.
Post by: LightningXI on Mon, 19 August 2019, 21:21:37
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 20 August 2019, 06:07:30
Post by: esquilax on Wed, 21 August 2019, 12:05:58
Post by: Kukulcanvs on Wed, 21 August 2019, 12:41:34
Post by: esquilax on Wed, 21 August 2019, 13:11:08
Does this website still take orders? This post was initially posted back in 2016.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.msg2795793#msg2795793
Post by: Kukulcanvs on Wed, 21 August 2019, 15:45:25
Post by: henz on Wed, 21 August 2019, 15:50:31
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 30 August 2019, 19:59:29
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 31 August 2019, 14:19:30
If you have anything to add or discuss that would help convince people on the Model F feel free to post here or message me.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/misconceptions-about-the-model-f-keyboard-what-initially-scares-many-people-away/
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 07 September 2019, 11:30:49
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: LightningXI on Sat, 07 September 2019, 12:21:41
Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
This is really exciting news!!
Post by: Kavik on Sat, 07 September 2019, 22:05:10
Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
This is really exciting news!!
If they sink and have to be remade... jk
Things seem to be getting closer!
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 09 September 2019, 06:09:27
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 11 September 2019, 13:17:31
...
Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Wed, 11 September 2019, 13:25:07
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Wed, 11 September 2019, 14:51:26
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Ya, it didn’t sound like this was close to being worked out.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 11 September 2019, 15:22:22
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Ya, it didn’t sound like this was close to being worked out.
GOTTA HAVE HIGH HIGH HOPES!
Post by: bun on Thu, 12 September 2019, 05:33:57
Posting here as i'm not registered over on deskthority.
On the deskthority thread you mention that everyone will get a tracking number, but a signature requirement is extra.
Is this also the case for international shipping?
Also, if I wanted to update my delivery address what would be the best way to go about that?
Thanks :)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 September 2019, 07:14:04
Post by: cicada on Tue, 17 September 2019, 18:56:41
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Ya, it didn’t sound like this was close to being worked out.
Do orders with no dyesub keys get priority?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 September 2019, 19:49:49
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 21 September 2019, 10:24:37
As an update the factory has completed assembly of most of the keyboards but is still working on finishing up mass assembly. They expected to be finished by this point but there were some unexpected assembly challenges with the ultra compact cases. They made some mistakes with the classic style cases (e.g. forgot to put the 2-3 nub keys where needed) and this resulted in additional time needed.
To avoid having everyone wait any longer, they will be shipping me most of the early bird keyboards but not all of them. The remaining early bird keyboards will ship a month or so later. They expect to give me more than enough keyboards (both compact and classic style) to keep me busy with shipments out to everyone in the mean time.
Initially I expected the factory to determine they could finish X number of keyboards per day and complete everything by the formula: total quantity/X days. But I have learned that the factories train the assembly workers to assemble one configuration of product at a time and some configs are more tricky than others for the workers doing the assembly. They started with the classic style keyboards and expected to be finished by this point but there were some unexpected assembly challenges with the ultra compact cases so assembly slowed significantly. The assemblers also made some mistakes with the classic style cases (e.g. forgot to put the 2-3 nub keys where needed) and this resulted in additional time needed.
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 23 September 2019, 06:36:40
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 23 September 2019, 06:37:56
Post by: bun on Tue, 24 September 2019, 05:25:03
Yes that is correct bun. Please feel free to email me for address updates and signature requirement.
Thanks Ellipse, i've emailed the updated address to you.
Post by: Cods on Tue, 24 September 2019, 22:03:44
As one of the earlybird / low serial number upgrader types, I am rather excited.
Hopefully I’ll see one of the keyboards from my order in Australia soon!
Cheers Ellipse, awesome news.
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Wed, 25 September 2019, 11:34:35
Quote
F62 Model F Keyboard - "Kishsaver"
Keys: Black unprinted keys (right shift key not included)
Layout/Flipper Placement: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Color: Black
DT/GH/Reddit username: GH: nathanrosspowell
I don't have the patients to read this entire thread again.
Using the current webstore, I can't get this combination to show up in the cart.
Someone please tell me that with all the delays and re-tooling that I will get a complete set of keys?! :blank:
Post by: dgneo on Wed, 25 September 2019, 11:50:08
I just checked my order from February 29, 2016...QuoteF62 Model F Keyboard - "Kishsaver"
Keys: Black unprinted keys (right shift key not included)
Layout/Flipper Placement: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Color: Black
DT/GH/Reddit username: GH: nathanrosspowell
I don't have the patients to read this entire thread again.
Using the current webstore, I can't get this combination to show up in the cart.
Someone please tell me that with all the delays and re-tooling that I will get a complete set of keys?! :blank:
*patience
(https://i.imgur.com/3KWyrqX.png)
just pm ellipse and let him know you'll need the black blank right shift
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 September 2019, 17:10:16
Keys from brand new molds completed production last year so everyone gets a full set of keys if their keyboard is configured with installed keys (like yours is).
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Wed, 25 September 2019, 19:11:41
I just checked my order from February 29, 2016...QuoteF62 Model F Keyboard - "Kishsaver"
Keys: Black unprinted keys (right shift key not included)
Layout/Flipper Placement: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Color: Black
DT/GH/Reddit username: GH: nathanrosspowell
I don't have the patients to read this entire thread again.
Using the current webstore, I can't get this combination to show up in the cart.
Someone please tell me that with all the delays and re-tooling that I will get a complete set of keys?! :blank:
*patienceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/3KWyrqX.png)
just pm ellipse and let him know you'll need the black blank right shift
Your way out of line their buddy. Do you think I care a lot weather I word good? I could care less! (I have the best words)
Yes confirmed nathanrosspowell that you get the full size right shift key in black. Initially we were using Unicomp keys and they had run out of black right shift keys.
Keys from brand new molds completed production last year so everyone gets a full set of keys if their keyboard is configured with installed keys (like yours is).
Thank you.
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 26 September 2019, 07:14:37
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 27 September 2019, 08:20:50
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 28 September 2019, 05:05:07
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 28 September 2019, 07:27:52
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: SixtyLife on Sat, 28 September 2019, 07:46:40
Pallets are packed and ready to go! They should arrive in early November.:eek: amazing
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 29 September 2019, 08:36:34
Post by: henz on Sun, 29 September 2019, 11:44:42
Post by: macclack on Sun, 29 September 2019, 15:46:17
The shipping container is packed to the edge! Below are photos showing the progress of loading the first two pallets and then the final pallets.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Godspeed
Post by: zacheadams on Mon, 07 October 2019, 10:34:23
soon ill be able to use my BS artisan, which ive kept for 3 something years. :D
same :-X
[attachimg=1]
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 07 October 2019, 19:29:12
Post by: rmendis on Tue, 08 October 2019, 17:32:20
soon ill be able to use my BS artisan, which ive kept for 3 something years. :D
same :-X
(Attachment Link)
hngg
Post by: saint_james on Sat, 26 October 2019, 15:38:33
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 October 2019, 15:57:48
Post by: ccc24 on Sat, 26 October 2019, 16:02:22
Ellipse can you DM me on where I'm in the queue? I know I placed my order pretty early but haven't kept up with all the people ordering? Would I be one of the people to get their keyboards shipped with this first batch coming in?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 October 2019, 17:14:41
Post by: naasfu on Mon, 28 October 2019, 03:38:27
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 October 2019, 17:38:23
I have online tracking and have been following the ship's movements and estimated date of arrival (sorry I decided against sharing the container number and tracking web site). The web site makes it as easy to track as a package - you can see where in the world the ship is.
Post by: euphxenos on Mon, 28 October 2019, 22:51:48
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 29 October 2019, 23:43:28
Post by: nightdriver on Wed, 30 October 2019, 19:58:44
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 October 2019, 22:33:25
Overview on all the case color options:
There are two types of cases - classic die cast (the more rugged and heavy option with painted cases) and ultra compact anodized aluminum (still strong but much more lightweight, no painted cases available).
Color choices: original style die cast zinc (Industrial Gray, silver gray, true red, black, off-white/beige). Here's a photo of all the classic style die cast case color options except industrial gray (it was left out of the photo): https://i.imgur.com/PE8K10Y.jpg Anodized CNC milled aluminum cases (black, regular gray, dark blue, Carolina (light) blue). Dark blue case with Carolina Blue swatch in background: https://imgur.com/6tt5lWy and Industrial gray https://imgur.com/wdxKhh8
Industrial gray is a tan-brown-gray color as featured on the classic F77 product page. It's difficult to photograph so it won't perfectly match the screen colors.
Red, silver gray, and the blues are the limited edition premium options - for these please message me to check availability before ordering.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 09 November 2019, 16:59:49
I hope to post photos throughout the coming weeks/months and plan on taking a photo of each unique configuration to upload to the web site in the future.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 09 November 2019, 17:30:48
The container ship has arrived in the port! I am told it will take another 1-2 weeks for remaining steps for delivery to me.
I hope to post photos throughout the coming weeks/months and plan on taking a photo of each unique configuration to upload to the web site in the future.
great news. What about the dye subbing? I was/am under the impression you are going to have to open every board to dye sub the keycaps and that you still didn't have a working solution. Isn't that going to take a long time?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 09 November 2019, 17:46:18
My dye sub setup works but I am trying to maximize the quality and consistency. I recently chatted again with the original IBM Model F keyboard production engineer who provided additional details on the dye sublimation specifics, to help improve my setup. I am now working on all the digital control systems for the setup - all completely different from my current setup - after doing further research and after a conference call this week with some engineers who have designed similar modern-day systems.
Yes it will take a long time to get all the orders out but not due to dye sublimation - more time will be spent doing QC and testing every keyboard one at a time.
There are about 1,900 keyboards ordered and I expect to dye sub 4 key sets at one time. Not sure yet how long each round will take. If each round takes 15 minutes (a guess), sublimating 2000 sets would take about 125 hours. Blank key orders are all factory installed to save time.
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 09 November 2019, 18:24:56
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 09 November 2019, 19:23:31
Post by: Full on Mon, 11 November 2019, 04:42:03
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 November 2019, 07:18:56
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 12 November 2019, 09:13:05
https://www.ccc.de/en/ (https://www.ccc.de/en/).
Last year I had exhibit the F107 and already talked about the Model F and New Model F.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 November 2019, 16:45:41
I have ordered all the final shipping supplies. Poly mailers will be wrapped around the boxes for weather protection during shipping as well as to keep the original product boxes free of shipping labels.
darkcruix I would say unfortunately not likely. My goal is to get as many keyboards out as quickly as possible, as long as each one has been thoroughly tested and passes my QC.
All the replacement technology and other parts for the dye sublimation setup will be arriving this week as well. Once I set it up and get it outputting consistent sublimation results, it should take a couple weeks to print the sublimation transfer papers and then I can start mass sublimation.
Again my apologies to all who have been waiting all this time - we are near the finish line but are still a few months away from everyone's order being delivered.
Post by: skwrn on Sun, 17 November 2019, 08:00:22
That's great! Thanks for the update
Post by: darkcruix on Sun, 17 November 2019, 11:02:31
...
darkcruix I would say unfortunately not likely. My goal is to get as many keyboards out as quickly as possible, as long as each one has been thoroughly tested and passes my QC.
...
Again my apologies to all who have been waiting all this time - we are near the finish line but are still a few months away from everyone's order being delivered.
No worries - looking forward holding the results in my hand knowing it will be awesome.
Post by: cicada on Tue, 19 November 2019, 11:44:40
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 November 2019, 21:39:48
Now's the time to recommend default function layers and other xwhatsit configurations! I will be loading the firmware and default configuration file to each keyboard during the QC process.
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Differences for Split backspace layouts - note the Delete function suggested for two of the three keys
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Correct iamacicada on the blank keys being from new molds as well. Nonstandard color keys (no longer offered through me) and ISO Enter keys are from Unicomp (I ordered and received all of them already for the current orders, plus some extras).
Everyone can order extra parts or whole extra keyboards and their spot for everything would remain with their first order.
I am hoping we get them all out in the next 3-4 months - will be a lot of busy nights and weekends for me!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 November 2019, 15:29:20
Post by: Lagomorph on Wed, 20 November 2019, 22:15:15
Trying to remain calm. :-X
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 November 2019, 22:47:39
Finally after several years Brand New Model F Keyboards are in stock!
While I wait for the remaining dye sub parts to arrive I have time to start testing and mailing out all orders where stock is available (e.g. orders of keyboards with no keys or unprinted keys). The early bird tooling volunteers and low serial numbers with available stock will be going out first.
Also below is the first page of the small 5.5 x 8.5 in. booklet that will be included with each order (in addition to the dot matrix packing slip). Please let me know if there are any errors or suggestions.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/2a/f1/4a2af17f72f8c850e092ae545074ff56.jpg)
Can anyone guess the significance of the booklet product number in the bottom right corner of the front page?
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Post by: switchnollie on Wed, 20 November 2019, 23:43:23
Post by: architones on Thu, 21 November 2019, 00:24:45
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 21 November 2019, 07:24:09
Post by: d00deitsnik on Thu, 21 November 2019, 07:56:33
Can anyone guess the significance of the booklet product number in the bottom right corner of the front page?I'm guessing something like the original release date of the model F? August 1981? If I'm right, do I get a prize?
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 November 2019, 10:47:32
Yes that's right d00de! The launch month and year of the original IBM PC which had a Model F keyboard.
Yes architones over 1900 keyboards have been ordered so far!
Post by: zacheadams on Sat, 23 November 2019, 12:40:10
There seems to be some back and forth over on the Deskthority thread regarding sending out the non-dye sublimated orders while waiting for the dye sub setup - please let me know your thoughts if you have a low serial order.
Yes that's right d00de! The launch month and year of the original IBM PC which had a Model F keyboard.
Yes architones over 1900 keyboards have been ordered so far!
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Sat, 23 November 2019, 14:47:29
The idea that someone would want Ellipse to sit on his hands while waiting for the dyesub setup so they can get their boards first is nonsensical. I do think it’s important they get priority once theirs can be shipped.
Side question, I got two emails asking to confirm shipping address. The first asked to reply if the provided address (1) wasn’t correct. The second gave me two options and said to ignore the shipping section on the first email. If I replied to the first email with the correct address already am I good?
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sat, 23 November 2019, 15:29:25
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 November 2019, 15:36:11
Correct InvidiousIgnoramus
Post by: atectatifern on Sat, 23 November 2019, 17:43:50
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 November 2019, 17:51:10
Post by: atectatifern on Sat, 23 November 2019, 17:53:22
Yes atectatifern, though some may have ended up in the junk folder - I see you replied 1/12/17 to the email I sent you for your Feb 2016 order - I re-sent the email to you just nowHey, thanks so much, just got it; I thought there was a mailing that had gone out recently and wanted to make sure I was still known to the system. Appreciate your help and hard work bringing these to fruition!
Post by: zacheadams on Sun, 24 November 2019, 09:07:06
Shipping some boards now reduces the total number of boards to complete/ship.
If shipping the orders that are ready to go doesn’t delay the “priority” orders then it would make sense to start.
The idea that someone would want Ellipse to sit on his hands while waiting for the dyesub setup so they can get their boards first is nonsensical. I do think it’s important they get priority once theirs can be shipped.
Side question, I got two emails asking to confirm shipping address. The first asked to reply if the provided address (1) wasn’t correct. The second gave me two options and said to ignore the shipping section on the first email. If I replied to the first email with the correct address already am I good?
Post by: pchatterjee on Sun, 24 November 2019, 12:52:03
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 24 November 2019, 20:31:22
Post by: helborne on Sun, 24 November 2019, 21:46:45
There seems to be some back and forth over on the Deskthority thread regarding sending out the non-dye sublimated orders while waiting for the dye sub setup - please let me know your thoughts if you have a low serial order.
They'll still be getting their keyboards before the majority of us. The overgrown children on deskthority should just be ignored. I don't care if it doesn't "sit well" with them. Even if it did mean that my order was delayed, I think your sending out non dye sub orders first is an excellent optimization of your time.
Post by: Pemdas on Sun, 24 November 2019, 22:19:17
I'm one of the lower serial orders and I personally wouldn't mind other orders going out first due to dye sub issues.
That said, my order has only blank claps so I'm not affected by this delay so I might be biased.
My main incentive for purchasing "early bird" was to get a specific serial number not so much to be among the first to receive their board.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 November 2019, 15:32:56
If anyone wants to switch to no printed keys please message me.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 04 December 2019, 09:25:47
Post by: ccc24 on Wed, 04 December 2019, 22:04:48
I was wondering if you could PM me on where I am in line for my order? I remember I was apart of the early bird round, but not sure if i'm apart of the first or second batch of boards.
Post by: vewy_nice on Thu, 05 December 2019, 11:55:17
I have a 7-pound package arriving via UPS tomorrow... I don't remember buying anything recently, so it's got me unreasonably excited. Could be some other board, though, I've got like 9 unfulfilled GB's right now.
I'm going to a LAN party over xmas break, it'd be an absolute dream to be able to annoy some people with this beast!
Post by: zacheadams on Fri, 06 December 2019, 14:02:08
Hey Ellipse, I responded to you second email just making sure if you got it.
I was wondering if you could PM me on where I am in line for my order? I remember I was apart of the early bird round, but not sure if i'm apart of the first or second batch of boards.
p sure all of this is "first batch"
Post by: iMav on Fri, 06 December 2019, 18:11:28
(Attachment Link)
Greatest post ever.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 07 December 2019, 23:54:35
Each new Model F keyboard will sound different, and they will also likely sound different when they are as old as the original Model F's.
I do hope people experiment with their new Model F's and share their mods to tune the sound of their new Model F keyboards to their preferences, even if the factory sound is not 100% to your liking. I have found that using a vice and taking a rubber mallet to adjust the bend/radius of the top inner assembly has a noticeable effect on the clickiness and reverberation of keypresses. I successfully improved some of my original F107s with this method a few years ago.
I have done some brief experimenting with foam (putting foam inside the metal space bar tabs as a cushion and to increase tightness of the space bar, doing the same with different types of tape like electrical and plain clear tape, etc.).
Also I think some people will even remove the inner foam entirely in order to maximize the clickiness and reverberant sounds of the Model F. (This may have drawbacks in terms of more wobbly keys and the possibility of dust interfering with the capacitive sensing). Currently the foam is brand new and undegraded, so it may muffle the sound more than the deteriorating inner foam of an original Model F.
Allow me to quote the project home page for a more general note on Model F sounds: "I have many original Model F keyboards in my collection and each one sounds different. No two sound the same or feel the same when typing! This means that your Brand New Model F Keyboard will likely not sound or feel like your 30 year old Model F or Model M keyboard due to their loosened springs, deteriorating foam, different alloys of metal, etc. New or little-used Model M and Model F springs and keys tend to require a little break in to loosen up the springs and keys. Not all keys will sound perfect or all the same with buckling spring keyboards – some may sound funny but they usually keep on working."
In summary: if you want to, the keyboard will be yours to experiment with and adjust both on the software and on the hardware side to get the best configuration and sound.
And yes ccc24 I received and replied to your email - thanks
Post by: Jhambone9160 on Sun, 08 December 2019, 13:56:37
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 08 December 2019, 14:05:14
Post by: Jhambone9160 on Sun, 08 December 2019, 16:14:19
Correct. As a note, more than half the keyboards were delivered, while the remaining keyboards will be delivered early next year. I have ordered extras so you can still order this month and be a part of the early bird round.
Perfect. Thanks you. Cheers!
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 08 December 2019, 21:47:56
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 09 December 2019, 23:28:00
Important - no serial number changes allowed, even for low serial buyers! The only serial change still allowed is by ordering the low serial add on item (then you can pick any available serial number). I have purposely left many of the lower numbers reserved for the final round low serial project supporters.
As a reminder the order of keyboard shipping will remain single digit serials, early bird tooling/custom and low serials, and all remaining orders. The order within each of these 3 groups is based on order date (earliest first) and parts availability (e.g. orders without printed keys and those ordering unprinted keys and paying for separate shipping of printed keys).
Dye sub update: I finally completed the dye sub control panel last week but had two sensors from the dye sub control panel fail to work (DOA) so I need to double check with some manufacturers of components in the control panel. I have some alternative parts under consideration and hope to resolve it this week.
Post by: vewy_nice on Wed, 11 December 2019, 09:05:54
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 December 2019, 21:07:58
The very first Brand New Model F Keyboard is shipping!
A Classic Case F62 in Black with HHKB Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace, serial number 5, going to a forum member who picked the single digit serial option and was also an early bird tooling volunteer.
Lots of photos are below. Here are some descriptions of the photos.
Production boxes - shown without tape, with fiber reinforced gummed paper tape applied to both box flaps, and with the final IBM-style box sticker denoting the serial number, production date, plant number, and containing a working Code 39 barcode (same tech IBM used) encoded with the text displayed below the barcode.
The actual first keyboard - described above. Extra keys to make up the full 103 key set are included in the two plastic bags.
The alignment of the keyboard label, using a carpenter's square. The label is positioned the same way IBM positioned it for the 4704 keyboards - if you lift the spacebar-side edge up while the keyboard is on your desk, the label will be right side up.
The foam keyboard packaging, sealed with fiber reinforced tape as IBM did back in the day. Note that the Brand New Model F Keyboards tape has not yet yellowed as IBM's keyboards have done (after a few decades!)
The keyboard booklet ("Keyboard Operator's Guide" per IBM nomenclature), printed on color paper like many 1980s pamphlets and containing safety information and other important information.
The order packing slip printed on vintage continuous form, tractor feed, green bar computer paper with a dot matrix printer. Names and addresses have been blocked out for privacy reasons, and the second page was removed for ease of viewing the photo.
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Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 12 December 2019, 21:13:14
edit: well I believe that's mine xD... I could be wrong :p
nvm, it's mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 13 December 2019, 01:28:26
Post by: jkp1187 on Fri, 13 December 2019, 07:39:55
Post by: stoic-lemon on Fri, 13 December 2019, 09:39:50
Post by: d00deitsnik on Fri, 13 December 2019, 14:02:09
Post by: zacheadams on Sat, 14 December 2019, 07:21:05
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 14 December 2019, 22:48:55
3 more Brand New Model F keyboards are shipping! (As always you were emailed if yours is shipping)
Notes on the photos:
Please note the black electrical tape around the space bar stabilizer wire, in the area where it contacts the metal tabs. This has significantly improved the space bar sound in my testing and has reduced the metal-on-metal rattling present on some new Model F's. So far I have been adding this tape to each keyboard that would benefit from it. Also I push down the tops of the space bar tabs a bit to help reduce space bar movement and improve stability of the key. Be careful when removing the space bar (be sure to push the metal stabilizer wire out of each tab one tab at a time to push up the tab a little so that you do not force out the space bar).
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Post by: euphxenos on Sat, 14 December 2019, 23:49:44
Post by: zacheadams on Sun, 15 December 2019, 07:46:57
That's a nice lens! What's the model?
It's the oddly named Nikon Micro-Nikkor 200mm f/4 AF-D Macro lens, a fairly long macro, mounted on a WeMacro automated focusing rail. I mount my Z7 on the back and can take tens or hundreds of photos as needed and stack them together.
Post by: Glod on Sun, 15 December 2019, 15:37:49
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 17 December 2019, 16:40:29
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 17 December 2019, 17:08:19
it's here and it's everything I've dreamed it would be!!! PRAISE Ellipse!!!
****ing awesome
Post by: nickheller on Tue, 17 December 2019, 18:43:09
it's here and it's everything I've dreamed it would be!!! PRAISE Ellipse!!!
pics pls
Post by: zacheadams on Tue, 17 December 2019, 22:13:17
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 December 2019, 22:27:01
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Post by: macclack on Tue, 17 December 2019, 23:15:13
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 17 December 2019, 23:36:59
(https://i.imgur.com/Ik6Vees.jpg)
Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 17 December 2019, 23:47:04
Ignore my piss poor lighting and dirty office ;DShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Ik6Vees.jpg)
OMG IN THE WILD, THIS IS AMAZING. Congratulations Ellipse and ApocalypseMaow what has it been, 4 years? To see one in the wild what an achievement. You have worked magic Ellipse to get to this point, you have my respect and gratitude.
Now I will sit here and patiently wait on number 334 I believe. I better get into the garage and find those F107 keys I have somewhere.
Ladies and gentlemen, I am speechless.
Post by: henz on Wed, 18 December 2019, 04:39:57
"Your order has shipped", the greatest feeling in the world.
Much love
Post by: iMav on Fri, 20 December 2019, 00:30:13
Never got my GH60s I ordered...but THIS is coming to fruition!! GREAT JOB! I think I need to start the iMav keyboard community Hall of Fame...guess who would be the founding member? :)
Post by: RocketGruntJake on Fri, 20 December 2019, 08:53:34
Better than I ever thought it could be. Threw on some Model F XT alpha keys and took this quick shot.
The color match to the original Model F keys is so good that when I mixed some of the originals with the blanks I had to look at the faces of each key to see if it was a printed one!
[attachimg=1]
Post by: euphxenos on Fri, 20 December 2019, 13:34:55
It's now been a month since you received the shipment. How many keyboards have been shipped so far? How long is it taking to get each keyboard ready? Are you working on fulfilling this group buy full time, or is this something you're doing in your off hours? Have you been able to resolve the dye sub problems you mentioned on 12/9/19?
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Fri, 20 December 2019, 16:12:17
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 20 December 2019, 16:33:45
Despite detailed assembly guidelines and testing guidelines it appears that the factory did not do enough thorough testing of assembled keyboards, so I am making sure that the second batch of the first round has better QC. This has resulted in extra needed QC time for each one. Some keys have mis-assembled springs and space bars that do not work well out of the box.
The quality control process involves more than 30 steps per keyboard. 13 have shipped so far. It takes at least an hour for each one as many of the QC corrections are being encountered for the first time and I am programming each of the standard layouts. Should take less time when I know exactly how to fix each issue. This is part time for me.
Still working on the dye sub. It has taken much longer for both QC and dye sub. Today I was able to fix the final part of the dye sub control system and it appears to be working now - I will be able to continue the dye sub testing with actual keys now. One of the DC power supplies had to be swapped from a medical grade switching power supply to a linear/constant/regulated power supply.
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:35:35
euphxenos the time consuming parts over the past month involve preparations to ship - determining which keyboards shipped to me, which box has which keyboard in it (factory will be improving how they do this for the second shipment of the early bird round), which orders can ship out (based on available inventory and the ability to fulfill someone's entire order), assigning serial numbers and determining shipping order, confirming 2,000 mailing addresses (had to send it twice because of mail delivery issues on my server - many of first emails ended up in people's junk folders), updating hundreds of order change requests and additions (making sure the additions are combined with the first orders and go to the right person when their name, address, or email are different). Also perfecting the technical aspects of order fulfillment - getting thermal labels and dot matrix packing slips to print correctly, solving technical issues with UPS, etc.
Despite detailed assembly guidelines and testing guidelines it appears that the factory did not do enough thorough testing of assembled keyboards, so I am making sure that the second batch of the first round has better QC. This has resulted in extra needed QC time for each one. Some keys have mis-assembled springs and space bars that do not work well out of the box.
The quality control process involves more than 30 steps per keyboard. 13 have shipped so far. It takes at least an hour for each one as many of the QC corrections are being encountered for the first time and I am programming each of the standard layouts. Should take less time when I know exactly how to fix each issue. This is part time for me.
Still working on the dye sub. It has taken much longer for both QC and dye sub. Today I was able to fix the final part of the dye sub control system and it appears to be working now - I will be able to continue the dye sub testing with actual keys now. One of the DC power supplies had to be swapped from a medical grade switching power supply to a linear/constant/regulated power supply.
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
Thanks for taking the time to QC these before sending them out. It would be a real bummer to receive one after so long and have to troubleshoot it.
Post by: bun on Fri, 20 December 2019, 19:20:18
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
I can't speak for others but I really appreciate this.
Personally, i'm a big fan of buying (and waiting for) quality, so i'm more than happy to wait to make sure it's done right.
My order number is #5520 and knowing that ellipse is doing QA for each and every one of these 5000+ individual orders is something really special in this age of mass produced disposable crap.
I'm happy to wait as long as is necessary.
Keep being awesome Ellipse, I appreciate your dedication to doing this right :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 20 December 2019, 19:49:58
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Post by: Vizir on Sat, 21 December 2019, 00:34:53
Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
(Attachment Link)
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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: d00deitsnik on Sat, 21 December 2019, 00:50:18
Speaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
(Attachment Link)
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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: romevi on Sat, 21 December 2019, 02:08:14
Thanks for the kind words.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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That's the one I wanted to order!
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 21 December 2019, 13:10:02
Post by: cicada on Sun, 22 December 2019, 07:39:49
Speaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Are there actually 5000+ orders? Because I think there are only a total of 1900 keyboards and my order #4500 was from 2017.
Post by: d00deitsnik on Sun, 22 December 2019, 11:24:04
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
I can't speak for others but I really appreciate this.
Personally, i'm a big fan of buying (and waiting for) quality, so i'm more than happy to wait to make sure it's done right.
My order number is #5520 and knowing that ellipse is doing QA for each and every one of these 5000+ individual orders is something really special in this age of mass produced disposable crap.
I'm happy to wait as long as is necessary.
Keep being awesome Ellipse, I appreciate your dedication to doing this right :thumb:
I out that cuz I read bun's post lolMoreSpeaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
(Attachment Link)
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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Are there actually 5000+ orders? Because I think there are only a total of 1900 keyboards and my order #4500 was from 2017.
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 23 December 2019, 10:04:44
Speaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Are there actually 5000+ orders? Because I think there are only a total of 1900 keyboards and my order #4500 was from 2017.
According to the website and serial number spreadsheet, there are somewhere between 1700 and 1937 keyboards.
Post by: keyboardbelle on Mon, 23 December 2019, 10:37:44
I'm on my third 3D printed 60% case design based on the same aesthetics.
There's something appealing about the scooped front and partial rounded bezel - even if you aren't after buckling spring switches.
Nice to see them back again, even on eBay it's rare to find one for sale.
Post by: parkedr on Tue, 24 December 2019, 08:45:14
This is one of my favorite retro keyboard aesthetically.
I'm on my third 3D printed 60% case design based on the same aesthetics.
There's something appealing about the scooped front and partial rounded bezel - even if you aren't after buckling spring switches.
Nice to see them back again, even on eBay it's rare to find one for sale.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 24 December 2019, 11:19:30
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Post by: macclack on Tue, 24 December 2019, 15:42:05
Post by: Playtrumpet on Wed, 25 December 2019, 08:10:26
Post by: smt on Fri, 27 December 2019, 12:39:16
Post by: Pemdas on Fri, 27 December 2019, 21:23:02
Model F62 #13 (https://flic.kr/p/2i6aobY) by thosepeoples (https://www.flickr.com/photos/86496414@N00/), on Flickr
Just shy of 3 years and it has arrived :thumb:
Thanks Ellipse for your work!
Pretty glad I couldn't find a buyer when I was trying to sell my spot. Pretty much all my boards nowadays are linears or tactiles so having a "loud" board back in the rotation is a lot of fun :p
Going two tone right now as the beige case has the serial number on it :cool:
More
(https://i.imgur.com/ySVl0mM.jpg)
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 27 December 2019, 22:10:10
Post by: zacheadams on Sat, 28 December 2019, 10:13:11
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Post by: Kavik on Sun, 29 December 2019, 12:31:31
(Attachment Link)more to come
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Hot damn, the anodizing on the compact case looks great. It almost looks like a powder coat. I'll have a similar setup for my F77, so it's nice to see that it looks so good. I wish I had ordered the HHKB split right shift though.
Post by: Glod on Sun, 29 December 2019, 16:10:45
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: zacheadams on Wed, 01 January 2020, 09:10:04
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 01 January 2020, 12:19:52
Post by: Bookman3 on Thu, 02 January 2020, 21:34:52
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: zacheadams on Fri, 03 January 2020, 06:52:18
I saw 4-5k orders mentioned a bit back in the thread (mid December maybe), but got an order number well over 10k. Has this blown up that much in 2-3 weeks?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This has been discussed, the Order Number does not correspond directly to the total number of orders. The latter is somewhere around 2000.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 03 January 2020, 15:53:00
A brief discussion on the importance of testing the Model F after you get it but before you start using it on your main computer:
Even though there is strong protective packaging, Model F springs are often dislodged during shipping which can result in a bad click sound or no click at all, and keys (and sometimes springs) may need to be reseated. I have found that carefully removing and flipping the spring upside down can fix most spring issues, and replacing the spring with another spring is a last resort.
8 more keyboards went out today, bringing the total to 25 so far.
Based on the current variations shipped in the first shipment last year, black keys will no longer be able to ship early (most of them are in the second batch arriving in a couple months). There are many pearl/pebble unprinted sets for most variations in the first shipment (happy to switch you to the standard colors key set if needed).
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Post by: h on Sat, 04 January 2020, 15:15:53
[3:22 PM]haze:ands ome kes dont work
[3:22 PM]haze:likes ome dont activate
[3:23 PM]haze:do ous eeh ow im ****ing up
[3:23 PM]haze:eaeh
[3:23 PM]haze:eaeyyeaeh
I'd like to point out that the last two messages should have been 'yeah' and 'yeahyeah' respectively. The spaces were pressed in the right order but are either delayed or sent before other keys, plus the y key is very finicky and didn't activate half the time.
This is the board stock out of the box with no changes other than remapping caps lock to escape. If anybody knows about this issue where some keys fail to activate (I've tried tinkering with the voltage setting, nothing seems to work) please let me know. Until then, I have to sit it on my shelf because it's unusable for my work.
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 04 January 2020, 16:34:10
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.
I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.
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Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 04 January 2020, 17:33:57
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Post by: h on Sat, 04 January 2020, 20:15:02
Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues. Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Thanks so much for this information, I've followed all the steps and it seems to have fixed my issue. To anyone reading this in the future: you may need to install the atmega usb driver for FLIP (which is found in the installation folder, then under usb). After that, load the hex into FLIP and hit run. I did have an issue with the board being stuck in DFU mode but I just had to switch which USB port it was plugged into and it worked fine. I typed this entire message on the model F with 0 issues, and with my custom layout! Applause from me!
Godspeed,
h
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 04 January 2020, 20:19:40
Below is my full xwhatsit firmware-related instructions which will be part of the upcoming Model F manual:
To install the firmware using Windows (I don't know about the other OS installation procedures), after assembly you would install atmel flip, plug in the USB on the controller and plug it into the computer, then go to device manager, right click the "Atmel" device, click have disk, go to the Atmel Flip installation folder, allow searching subfolders, and install the driver, then load atmel Flip 3.4.7, click the chip icon "select a target device" and pick atmega32U2, click OK, then click the USB icon, click USB, click Open, then click File, Load HEX file and select Joc's firmware hex file (alternative debounce threshold 6), then click run. After it says verified/pass then unplug the cable, wait 10 seconds, plug it back in, wait another 10 seconds, then open xwhatsit's newest version of the GUI (0.9.0?) and if it opens then you were successful!
If you have never installed atmel firmware before on your current computer installation, you need to open the xwhatsit software utility, click tools - enter GUI bootloader, click Yes, and then do the above Control Panel - Devices and Printers for the Unknown device.
unplug and plug in again if not detected first time after flashing
if can't install, can also try shorting PROG on the xwhatsit controller and keeping it shorted, then connecting it to USB, wait 1-2 seconds MAXIMUM, then release prog. will cause error device descriptor failed if you hold it too long
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 January 2020, 22:41:49
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 05 January 2020, 22:54:43
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 January 2020, 21:40:26
There was some discussion on the throughput of order fulfillment on DT that I thought I'd share: if I had a bunch of people helping me after the key sublimation process is all set things could go much faster. There is a ~30 step quality control/order fulfillment process. Each keyboard may end up taking 15-20 minutes down the line for those steps. More people can of course increase throughput. I wouldn't extrapolate the current progress for the reasons I posted a few weeks or so ago (technical/administrative issues, time to identify each keyboard (was not done in the best manner by the factory but they are labeling each box for the second shipment of the early bird round), etc.
I was recently discussing part of the above quality control process along with possible caveats to reviewing any Model F keyboard and thought I'd share my notes:
I'd recommend emphasizing that some users may require changing settings on the xwhatsit controller or there will be problems like keys not registering or key "spamming" - plus I'd note that problems like non-clicking keys and a sometimes bad buzzing key sound upon actuation are easily fixable by the user, just like on the originals (I'll be making videos at some point to show how to fix the various issues with Model F keyboards in general). Nearly all of the dozens of the original F's I've restored over the past 5 years (XT, AT, F104 Unsaver, F107, F122) have had some key issues like buzzing or requiring to re-seat the keys but those who are new to the world of Model F may not realize that.
Maybe I'm more sensitive to the correct Model F sound but I've had to replace or reseat a few springs on each keyboard so far. Others may be even more sensitive and may require some adjustment by the end user (I've asked others to listen in a silent room and they could not reliably tell the difference between good and not as good).
I believe that the nice space bar thud sound (and minimizing rattle) is highly contingent on the proper placement of the metal tabs - with the placement as a constant, bending the stabilizer wire slightly away from the metal tab ends results in a more rattly space bar with a lighter actuation force that some people prefer (more like many original F122's), while pushing too much towards the metal tab ends can slightly increase actuation force for the space bar. Optimally the back of the metal tab should touch the space bar stabilizer wire or have a slight amount of space between wire and back of tab. With the current finished production round one can bend the space bar wire to get a better sound. The factory expects to stamp the holes for the metal tabs with a CNC type machine for improved accuracy with the final round towards the end of this year.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 January 2020, 23:11:22
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Post by: Bookman3 on Mon, 06 January 2020, 23:32:01
Very excited for this board! Thanks @ellipse and everyone else involved for your hard work
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 January 2020, 21:29:23
As always, tracking numbers were emailed to those whose orders are shipping.
Maybe on a few Saturdays once I have a backlog of sublimated key sets a bunch of orders can go out if a few people can help.
From today's group:
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Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 07 January 2020, 22:22:15
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 08 January 2020, 14:27:14
I have little doubt that these things would go into full-scale production if enough people had the chance to try them.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 January 2020, 15:27:39
The complexity of the Model F design requires a person to test each key one by one as IBM employees did back in the day (I read an article last year on this subject - it was posted over on the Deskthority thread a while back) and they used a microphone and headphones to verify the proper click of each key.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/in-one-minute-how-can-you-help-the-brand-new-model-f-keyboards-project/
Copied below:
In one minute, how can you help the Brand New Model F Keyboards project?
I could definitely use some help from anyone reading the blog. Even if you have just one minute!
What I need help most with is getting the word out to the various people who may be interested – even if you have not yet joined the project. My goal is to be able to afford to make as many new Model F keyboards as possible.
Most people don’t know about buckling spring keyboards and many of those who do only discovered the project by chance / by a Google search!
I am sure that many of you know one or more people who might want to learn about the project but are not active in the keyboard forums and may not know about buckling spring. It would be a great help if everyone reading this could let 1-3 or more people, or other online communities/social media know about the project. Chyrosran22’s excellent YouTube review of the Model F would be a great link to send someone or post:
After hearing from many of you about what drew you to the Model F project, I believe that you might have the best results letting these people know about the project:
1. The programmer/writer/blogger. Someone who uses their keyboard a lot for typing and wants a keyboard that could last a lifetime.
2. The computer/tech/mechanical keyboard enthusiast who wants the best featured keyboard, or someone in the market for a new dependable keyboard who wants the best one. Many users who have tried the other clicky switches end up with the Model F as their end game keyboard.
3. The Model F/M user looking to upgrade/looking for a brand new production buckling spring keyboard/those who remember the using an IBM keyboard at school/home/work.
Post by: cicada on Fri, 10 January 2020, 07:45:27
Based on the current variations shipped in the first shipment last year, black keys will no longer be able to ship early (most of them are in the second batch arriving in a couple months). There are many pearl/pebble unprinted sets for most variations in the first shipment (happy to switch you to the standard colors key set if needed).
I'm very excited that I got a shipping notification, however I'm a bit confused since I have black keys. Maybe I'm one the last black keys orders that ship early?
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 10 January 2020, 08:12:40
I show everyone who may even remotely be interested in mechanical keyboards my Fs, and let them try their switches. That in and of itself is half of the battle though. Most people just don't care about mechanical keyboards, and if they do, they just want some linear gaming switch. Kids do seem more receptive though. I work in a school and show our "Tech Force" kids my old boards from time to time. Even amongst them, they're not always a smash hit.
Of the ones that do try the boards, and do end up cultivating an interest in mechanical switches, it does mostly seem to come down to preference between capacitive buckling spring and blue alps though, at least.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 January 2020, 14:11:27
Setting the voltage threshold a few numbers too high results in ghosting or some keys not recognized when pressed. I recommend voltage threshold 122 for all F77's and between 122 and 126 for all F62's. Always click store to EEPROM after adjusting; the auto voltage doesn't work too well for me. For the F62's, start with 126 and if a key in the rightmost or leftmost column of physical keys flickers in the xwhatsit GUI (as opposed to being solid) when a leftmost or rightmost key is pressed down fully, lower the threshold from 126 to 124. If there are still issues, lower to 122. The column skips (columns 9-15 skipped) must be stored to the EEPROM before adjusting the voltage threshold.
Regarding what can ship first:
iamaciada - only certain configurations with black unprinted keys are in the first shipment and not all of these particular units are in the first shipment, so not all unprinted keyboards can ship beforehand.
In the first shipment most of the ones with installed keys are F62 classic Black case with split right shift and split backspace and black keys, F62 (any color) with the same configuration but pearl/pebble blank keys, and F77's with split right shift and split backspace with pearl/pebble blank keys. I still have some left of these configurations that can ship but not many.
Post by: ArchDill on Sat, 11 January 2020, 19:46:23
Typing sounds
Wow, that sounds AMAZING!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 January 2020, 22:52:02
I have just created and posted a quick video of how to open up a Model F keyboard (considered a last resort troubleshooting step). I posted the following in the video description: "Warning! Do not open up your keyboard unless all other troubleshooting steps have been tried. In nearly all cases, an issue can be resolved in much easier ways (removing and re-seating a key, adjusting the spring, replacing a spring) and you do not need to open up the keyboard."
The video is to help someone's new Model F space bar key which seems not to be registering the click but it is making the click sound. The flipper with spring moves freely inside the barrel.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Sat, 11 January 2020, 22:58:16
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against. I think this is the first time in my life I half wish I lived in New York. I think the project would be a lot more popular than it is if economies of scale could kick in and the price could come down, or there were a budget option in something heretical, like a plastic case and cheap caps. I hear/read a lot of, "I would love one of those, but ...".I mean, this kinda IS the economy of scale price. These are only about half the price of the original models, and those had IBM backing them.
I show everyone who may even remotely be interested in mechanical keyboards my Fs, and let them try their switches. That in and of itself is half of the battle though. Most people just don't care about mechanical keyboards, and if they do, they just want some linear gaming switch. Kids do seem more receptive though. I work in a school and show our "Tech Force" kids my old boards from time to time. Even amongst them, they're not always a smash hit.
Of the ones that do try the boards, and do end up cultivating an interest in mechanical switches, it does mostly seem to come down to preference between capacitive buckling spring and blue alps though, at least.
Post by: Maledicted on Sat, 11 January 2020, 23:06:48
I mean, this kinda IS the economy of scale price. These are only about half the price of the original models, and those had IBM backing them.
I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure that Ellipse himself has said in the past that there's no way that we would reach a situation where that kicks in with such small-scale production. IBM is the typical greedy corporation, not that I'm necessarily opposed to such a thing. Everything they did back then was watched and emulated, people bought whatever they sold because they were the ones selling it. They could set prices that made no sense at all and still get sales. Weren't the Model Fs made in the U.S. as well? None of that necessarily makes new manufacture by an enthusiast/small businessman, with a factory in China, all that comparable.
Post by: eternalmetal on Sun, 12 January 2020, 13:00:28
edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself? Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!
Post by: Pete on Sun, 12 January 2020, 20:28:58
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against.
Would the switch sound have remained constant over time with the original model Fs, assuming they were well maintained?
I have on old Bigfoot (with the weird connector so I don’t know if it works) and some keys sound quite different to others which I assumed was due to degradation of internal components. It will be interesting to compare to a new model F when mine arrives.
Post by: Maledicted on Sun, 12 January 2020, 22:35:22
Well, I got mine in the mail last night! I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well. I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters. I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?). Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated. Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others. Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic. I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp. Easily my new favorite keyboard.
edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself? Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!
I took my F XT apart last night because Hasu has me testing some of his firmware and I thought the board might have a grounding issue. Just taking the plate assembly out of the case and putting it back in screwed up some of the keys. If any keys don't feel/sound like the others, take them off, flip the board veritcally, and reseat them that way. I did notice that even if that didn't initially fix the problem, sometimes they would finish sorting themselves out after a few keypresses. Ellipse has a video that demonstrates their proper installation on his Youtube channel for the new Model Fs.
Would the switch sound have remained constant over time with the original model Fs, assuming they were well maintained?
I have on old Bigfoot (with the weird connector so I don’t know if it works) and some keys sound quite different to others which I assumed was due to degradation of internal components. It will be interesting to compare to a new model F when mine arrives.
I don't know that I'm entirely qualified to answer that. My F AT appears nearly unused, although I haven't stripped it apart completely. Both my F AT and XT seem to all have consistent sounds and feels between keys, besides maybe in vastly different parts of the plate where different harmonics might come into play. This is, of course, once I have verified that every single key functions normally with a keyboard tester. Regardless, if not, I imagine it would not be difficult to restore them to be so. I just meant that I have them to use as reference/control, not necessarily in the state in which they currently are.
I think there was a recent well-illustrated tutorial on converting those boards posted on this forum.
Post by: eternalmetal on Mon, 13 January 2020, 07:52:16
Well, I got mine in the mail last night! I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well. I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters. I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?). Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated. Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others. Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic. I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp. Easily my new favorite keyboard.
edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself? Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!
I took my F XT apart last night because Hasu has me testing some of his firmware and I thought the board might have a grounding issue. Just taking the plate assembly out of the case and putting it back in screwed up some of the keys. If any keys don't feel/sound like the others, take them off, flip the board veritcally, and reseat them that way. I did notice that even if that didn't initially fix the problem, sometimes they would finish sorting themselves out after a few keypresses. Ellipse has a video that demonstrates their proper installation on his Youtube channel for the new Model Fs.
Yea, I saw that video AFTER I changed all the keys, apparently doing it wrong. Fortunately I don't seem to be having any issues, other than the aforementioned 'F' key that came shipped with the spring off the peg. And it has since worked itself out, as ive been typing on it for about a day without any issue. Ill keep it in mind to change the keys correctly next time, lol
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 January 2020, 19:51:37
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Post by: ImAWildDeer on Mon, 13 January 2020, 20:24:43
(https://i.imgur.com/qCju6Lx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NhhC8OW.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/moRH5k0.jpg)
There are a couple more pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/pdOFxgS
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 13 January 2020, 20:29:30
Mine arrived early last week and I honestly love it. It's been a long wait, and my passion for mechanical keyboards calmed down a bit during that time, but man this thing is sick. This is my first time using buckling springs and the tactile feel and weight is just perfect. I really enjoyed using my HHKB and I'm excited to have another keyboard in a similar format (for some reason I feel like the function key is slightly lower and out of the way compared to the HHKB, but when I look at them side by side they are nearly identical, so my muscle memory must just be wonky). Thanks for all of your hard work on this, Ellipse!
Beautiful board you've got there. That paint texture screams 80s.
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 14 January 2020, 19:20:52
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vkc66nv7/20200111-143931.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 January 2020, 20:09:28
Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 14 January 2020, 20:12:41
*makes repetitive snake tongue movement and 'liddle' sound
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 14 January 2020, 21:44:18
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 14 January 2020, 23:34:44
*makes repetitive snake tongue movement and 'liddle' soundI'm amused visualizing this action. Maybe it's a cultural thing...
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 January 2020, 16:28:56
I had to replace some more of the components of the dye sub setup and this week I've been testing different settings to optimize the results. The current results are still not as good as my prior tests from last year.
Some notes on things pointed out over on DT from those who have received their new Model F keyboards:
The powdercoating on the cases is not the same as modern-day powdercoating - it is 1980s style powdercoating, warts and all. It took months to get the powdercoating to resemble the 1980s blotchy style. The original cases will not have a perfect, blemish-free finish. The prototypes back in 2015 were finished in a tough, modern powdercoating but it did not look like the original finish, so I decided back then to reject it and aim for as close as possible to the original, less durable finish. Like the originals, the paint is a thin, textured, matte finish that does chip and flake.
If you prefer a tougher coat maybe some kind of clear coat or re-painting could be done. Please do post the results if anyone does this.
Regarding the space bar - there is an art to getting it to sound good - I am slowly getting better as more keyboards are QC'd (yours was one of the earliest). Regarding squeaking and rattling, the solution is to remove and re-seat, or maybe replace the spring with another one and slightly adjust the bend of the space bar so that it is closer to the back of the metal space bar tabs. I hope to make a video on the specifics of space bar modding for those who are particular about the sound (as I am). Since your keyboard, I have gotten a little better at detecting and fixing space bar issues.
The 1 cm circled line (see recently posted photos on DT) is present on all the cases; it has something to do with the mold. I pointed this out to them a few years ago. The factory was able to minimize it but not remove it entirely.
Confirmed that for those not ordering installed keys, the voltage threshold is set too high so as not to activate keys if you accidentally plug in the keyboard before installing all keys (the factory default layouts are pre-loaded for all keyboards). It's easy to adjust in the xwhatsit GUI.
Post by: Khers on Fri, 17 January 2020, 00:35:10
(https://i.imgur.com/QqScaIm.jpg)
Post by: Pete on Fri, 17 January 2020, 20:18:03
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you *****
Australian customs? Good luck. For something like this I’m worried they’ll hold up shipment due to some reason that would require additional import clearance charges after the GST changes last year.
Post by: sundin on Sat, 18 January 2020, 03:18:48
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/364402716354543617/668019291290861584/JPEG_20200118_101006.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/364402716354543617/668019508056686602/JPEG_20200118_101058.jpg
same on mine
Post by: sundin on Sat, 18 January 2020, 04:34:27
anyway i'm still happy, thank you ellipse for your work!
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Mon, 20 January 2020, 08:44:47
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 January 2020, 09:16:33
Post by: Damage on Mon, 20 January 2020, 10:45:53
https://twitter.com/notch/status/1219298173186904072
Post by: darkcruix on Mon, 20 January 2020, 11:30:02
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 20 January 2020, 21:38:33
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you *****
Australian customs? Good luck. For something like this I’m worried they’ll hold up shipment due to some reason that would require additional import clearance charges after the GST changes last year.
This was a worry I had also, but it appears to have cleared customs. Well that is what the tracking indicates. We will see.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 22 January 2020, 15:37:12
Here's an imgur album of all the variations so far - it will be updated with new variations as they are photographed:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
Both blue variants (plus the classic case limited editions True Red and Silver Gray) are still available to order but I only have a few left.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: KetchyKech on Wed, 22 January 2020, 19:04:05
I'll be messaging you shortly about purchasing an extra ultra-compact case!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 22 January 2020, 19:55:30
Post by: Lormania on Thu, 23 January 2020, 19:19:35
(https://i.imgur.com/scGlkcZ.jpg?1)
Loving it!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 January 2020, 20:54:20
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 23 January 2020, 22:30:51
The latest batch of new variation keyboards:
Here's an imgur album of all the variations so far - it will be updated with new variations as they are photographed:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
Both blue variants (plus the classic case limited editions True Red and Silver Gray) are still available to order but I only have a few left.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
omfg blue
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 25 January 2020, 23:20:36
107 keyboards will have shipped, as of this Monday.
Below are some more photos of unique variations. The JIS set below is Unicomp's set - this keyboard shows off the medium space bar option not available as a factory option (I don't have any pearl shorter space bars but included a full size pearl space bar for this keyboard just in case). The final two photos are an F77 keyboard customized by a customer who permitted me to post them.
I have to redo one aspect of the dye sub setup after inconsistencies in the most recent round of testing (some decent, sharp results and some poor results with nearly identical settings). I will post more updates when I have them as always but we are still a month or two away from the majority of these keyboards being ready to go out.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
Post by: romevi on Sun, 26 January 2020, 00:41:48
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Sun, 26 January 2020, 01:26:24
Holy cow. I think I know what I want for my graduation gift.
It's what my wife (then girlfriend) bought me for mine.
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 28 January 2020, 07:01:06
Is this fixable? I'm on Mac OS Catalina but I also have access to Windows PC.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 10:00:57
My fn key seems to be causing the "spamming" problem. Whatever key I pressed along with the fn will be spammed until I press fn again or sometimes it just stops by itself.
Is this fixable? I'm on Mac OS Catalina but I also have access to Windows PC.
Take a look at these earlier posts:
Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.
I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues. Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
I have one of each major OS on what I dub a trifecta machine at home, but I do not yet have a model F equipped with an xwhatsit controller, so I couldn't confirm what the OSX/MacOS-specific steps may be. It should be easy enough in Windows.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 28 January 2020, 17:57:32
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:39:26
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Post by: tron on Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:56:27
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Exact same thing can happen with beamspring keyboards using xwhatsit. I've had to quickly plug the board in, launch the GUI and hit emergency hault before the explosion of keypresses/windows hit ;D
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:09:55
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:41:15
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.
Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.
Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:53:09
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.
Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.
Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
I bet, I'm jealous.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 28 January 2020, 21:29:07
For most F62's I recommend debounce 6 firmware, threshold set to manual and a value between 122-126. Anything lower is unnecessary for F62/F77 and will cause issues (lower threshold is required for some IBM F107's and maybe F122's if I recall correctly). If you go too low and did not click store to eeprom, need to restart your computer and it should go back to your last stored value. If you go too low and saved to eeprom, need to start your computer with keyboard unplugged, short PROG on the xwhatsit controller and keeping it shorted (can use a screwdriver or paper clip to short the two pads of prog), then connect it to USB, wait 1-2 seconds MAXIMUM, then remove the shorting of prog. will cause error device descriptor failed if you hold it shorted too long.
If you hold down a key and the gray square flickers in xwhatsit, need to change the threshold higher or lower (always click store to EEPROM after changing the threshold). If no combination between 120-126 works reliably without flicker, may need to flash debounce 11 firmware with other settings the same. Be sure to set the column skips 9-15 for F62 and 11-15 for F77 and click store to EEPROM before anything else.
Post by: atlas3686 on Fri, 31 January 2020, 03:23:25
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.
Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.
Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
Awesome, glad you got it sorted. Can't wait for mine to arrive! Also pics...
Post by: BlissOnTap on Fri, 31 January 2020, 15:24:13
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 31 January 2020, 16:07:41
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?
^ I already have one ordered ... but no sane person can live with merely one zinc chassis model F.
Post by: euphxenos on Fri, 31 January 2020, 17:10:23
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?
If you're referring to the "1/31/20 please have your orders in by then!" text on the modelfkeyboards.com web site, there's been text to that effect on there for years. Every month that date moves out by one month.
Post by: esquilax on Sat, 01 February 2020, 13:41:45
My keyboard arrived safely the other day. The only apparent problem was that the spacebar wasn't seated. I reseated it (potentially incorrectly, as I'm used to Model Ms) and it didn't seem to work, although every other key did. I then decided to disassemble my keyboard because I am an absolute fool.
When the plates are apart, I can verify that the contacts and flippers and controller all work correctly. However, when I reassemble and test, I consistently get 8~; spammed over and over. I've disassembled and reassembled the plates twice with the same result. I've watched your video a few times to try to get it right, but apparently the type of foolishness that caused me to disassemble it symmetrically causes me to be bad at reassembling it, which makes sense.
I tried running the linux xwhatsit gui with the keyboard plugged in, and my machine promptly rebooted.
I'm wondering 2 things:
1. Is there a key combo that would generally cause 8~; to be printed? That might give me a clue as to where to look to fix my plate mounting job.
2. Should I work harder on getting the more strenuous debounce firmware installed? I should be able to try other platforms, and could always disassemble it again so the flippers aren't causing anything to spam.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 01 February 2020, 13:46:57
Post by: fanpeople on Sat, 01 February 2020, 23:48:39
Also silly old'e me totally forgot about stabs and I have none left. Now regretting getting rid of all my excess Model M/F stuff now.
Also think I will need to get a set of number keys with the F key printed.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: jorgenslee on Wed, 05 February 2020, 06:34:27
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 06 February 2020, 20:16:52
I just finished the third Model F instructional video: how to fix buzzing springs and non-working keys on your Model F keyboard. Check out the other videos in my channel for additional instructional videos on the Brand New Model F keyboards. As a note, this is the QC process I go through for each new Model F keyboard - it is one reason it takes more time than expected for each one to go out. The factory also goes through this QC process before me on each keyboard and I have asked them to improve on this for the final round.
Everyone's keyboard ships only after I test each key and fix the needed springs.
Also a high quality sound comparison of the New Model F Keyboard vs. two original IBM Model F PC XT Keyboards and a Model F 122-key keyboard.
Over 100 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far! Once I can start mass sublimation I am hoping to pick up the pace significantly. As I asked in my prior blog post I am open to having volunteers help get these keyboards out on a Saturday – so far I’ve gotten some interest but the more the better! Please let me know if you’d like to help in a couple months from now.
As an update I am working on what should be the final fixes to the dye sublimation setup. Progress has been disappointingly slow on this but I think this is the final aspect of the setup that I was missing (I thought of doing it another way but the results were inconsistent).
Sound comparison clip from above video:
(as discussed directly with jorgenslee I'll be correcting this layout mistake ASAP)
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 07 February 2020, 09:27:13
Could we possibly order unfinished zinc cases separately?
Could we maybe get more detailed information on the process of prioritization and/or the current status of what's shipped and what's on deck? I assume it is something like this:
Unprinted/no caps > serial number > order number
Thanks for the videos. While I haven't watched all of them yet, I can imagine your channel turning into a Model F restoration/maintenance archive, in perpetuity.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 07 February 2020, 09:34:28
2. The cases are all finished but you can strip the paint if needed. If possible please order black as I believe I ordered additional extras of black.
3. Yes correct - though many unprinted keyboards are in the second shipment of the early bird round, arriving in a couple months.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Mon, 10 February 2020, 03:51:38
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 10 February 2020, 08:41:01
Post by: cicada on Fri, 14 February 2020, 07:00:58
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 14 February 2020, 07:52:14
My keyboard has arrived safely. I have noticed that certain keys sometimes register multiple keystrokes from a single keypress. Any idea what causes and how to fix this?
Read the following posts:
Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.
I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues. Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Post by: snevok on Mon, 17 February 2020, 19:24:16
Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since. Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows. Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 18 February 2020, 08:19:33
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zijzczR.jpg)
Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since. Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows. Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys.
Beautiful picture. I really need to stop looking at this thread until mine finally ships, but I know that I can't.
Post by: skwrn on Tue, 18 February 2020, 15:08:24
That looks super good. I wish I could find some good quality keyboards to harvest from in central Europe.
The ones that are here, are being sold with ISO keymaps, which to me is unexceptable. That's why I ordered my F62 with printed keycaps, which I expect to be the highest quality.
I am curious, how is the research on manufacturing the best acceptable dye sublimation going on?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 20 February 2020, 13:40:15
One of the first video reviews has been posted on YouTube - here's the link.
For this reviewer, Joc's updated firmware with the alternative debounce threshold 11 was optimal while debounce 6 had some issues with pressed keys. The F62 was connected to a 2016 Dell laptop for this test. I don't know the reason for the need to use threshold 6 vs. 11 but my guess is that the capacitive sensing is more sensitive to minute differences in voltage output or USB power management and that affects a small, but significant, percentage of xwhatsit controller users based on the connected equipment. If anyone has more details on this please do share!
Post by: Pete on Thu, 27 February 2020, 19:53:22
After seeing the pics from people who have already received theirs, I had to pull out my old Model F from a box of non-working keyboard bits just to get my hit of buckling spring goodness.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: jasburbak on Fri, 28 February 2020, 06:35:54
Quote from: jasburbak post_id=460387 time=1582891569 user_id=19458
Since I was one of the early receivers of the Model F Keyboard, I thought I'd add my two cents; it might help others in waiting, and a couple pages ago Ellipse had asked others who had received their keyboards for input, so here we go:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/iyhdNPU.jpg)
My keyboard was shipped on Jan 26. within the U.S. to a relatives address, I didn't want international shipping to my home in Europe to avoid customs, tax and international shipping charges, all of which usually are quite a lot to us folks outside the U.S, and planned to pick it up whenever I had the chance to travel to the states. Which turned out to be sooner than I thought, I received and opened the box a few days ago.
My keyboard arrived safe and sound, only the spacebar was dislodged. I ran through a key test looking for buzzing springs or non responsive keys, I had 5 keys that had an "after buzz" and one key that had " a non registering sound". I removed them, held the keyboard vertical spacebar side up, teased and tugged the springs then coaxed them a couple times down into the barrel, and reinserted the caps. This fixed the buzzing in all the caps but one, and fixed the non registering sound to a "registering ping" in the other. The one cap that wasn't fixed was a stubborn fellow, and took me I think 4-5 trys till it got rid of the buzz. (Just follow the video guideline that Ellipse made) - this was a fairly easy process.
I connected the keyboard straight to my computer, and everything works right out of the box. I did a quick type test at around 90wpm, and everything went beautifully, all keys register and there was no spamming. For my selected option, the HHKB style split right shift Fn key, and the layering for the numpad on the right were already done, to my pleasant surprise, I thought I would have to map each key out in xwhatsit when I received it.
(one thing I would suggest for Ellipse is, for future reference: when selecting the keyboard configuration on the order page, to have
a visual representation of the layout. I spend quite some time trying to make sure what I was choosing was the correct one for me- you responded quickly and were very helpful via email about this, it would just be easier on you and the person ordering to have such layouts visually available).
The Case: The finish is quite well done, I didn't really notice the mold line that a few people were mentioning, my only criticism in this would be the color. I was expecting that classic off-white IBM color, and in reality it has more of a beige tone added into that mix. The photos do not reflect the color, in the photos, it looks as the color that I was expecting. It's not a big deal by the way, at least for me- it has that "NES box left out in the sun over two decades color tint" feel. Those who know what that is will get it. By the way this case is a behemoth. Lifting it to take out and reinsert the keycaps might have thrown off my shoulder. But the finish quality and texture is great, like it should be.
The Typing: Wonderful buckling spring action. Nothing more needed to say. It's been a while since I've typed on one, and the feel of it is very close to the originals in which I remember. It is a bit more crisp and precise than the Model M's that I'm used to, but those have decades of wear and tear on them, so in time these will mush up a bit too. My only complaint, like a couple others is the space bar. That one kinda surprised me. It feels very "hollow". The satisfying thunk sound, or feel isn't present. I haven't messed around with the wire (bending it and the like) yet, and I'm sure someone much more intuitive than I will find a mod that will improve the feel of it within the coming months, so I'll be on the lookout. Perhaps gluing a thin strip of metal underneath the space bar might add to its key feel?
All in all, this is an absolutely wonderful keyboard. And a huge undertaking for one man. I read someone criticize that the board wasn't 100% perfect upon arrival, and that you shouldn't need to fix buzzing springs, etc. These keyboards need to be tuned. Like a piano. Even with Ellipse's individual QC, things shift around during shipping, etc.. People who pay this kind of money for an enthusiast keyboard and spend countless more on mech keyboards, and caps, and switches etc, are also of the variety who like to tinker. Or at least have learned to do so. I went into this buy with the possibility that it might actually not go through, that's always a risk, and recreating a keyboard like this down to so much of its detail and feel is a very very big undertaking, and accomplishing it on such a level is a really commendable task. It was worth the wait. So, congrats Ellipse, bravo.
This is now my daily driver, and isn't she a beauty and a joy forever.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Dh4kEdp.jpg)
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 28 February 2020, 07:28:45
I posted my review on Deskthority, and just copy pasted it below, didn't want to rewrite it, thought it might also help others waiting for their keyboards ;D
I have read it, although I don't have an account over there. I check that thread almost every day. It sure helps me wish even more that I had mine.
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that all Model Fs are inherently more crisp and precise than Model Ms. Both of my F ATs, and F XT, are. They hadn't exactly been babied by their previous owners over the past 34-ish years.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 February 2020, 09:36:06
Thanks jasburbak for the detailed review and for sharing it on both forums. I am glad that these keyboards will be used as daily drivers all around the world!
I have added visual representations of the layouts and function layer to each of the four product pages to help everyone choose.
And here's my note on the beige color from a few weeks ago: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=459699#p459699
In addition to the methods described in the "QC secrets" for fixing buzzing springs, I have found that sometimes just stretching the spring and then reinstalling the key reduces the buzz - the buzz may have to do with a length of spring slightly too short for a particular key, as well as a spring end that should be a bit closer to the flipper nub.
Post by: Pete on Sat, 29 February 2020, 18:00:30
Pete why is your old Model F not working? Do the bigfoot keyboards work with Soarer's converter: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9418&start=
Thanks Ellipse. After I ordered your new Model F keyboard I kind of lost motivation to do the work to fix up and convert the old bigfoot. One day though....
Post by: nathanchere on Wed, 04 March 2020, 04:06:37
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?
If you're referring to the "1/31/20 please have your orders in by then!" text on the modelfkeyboards.com web site, there's been text to that effect on there for years. Every month that date moves out by one month.
An official answer from Ellipse wouldn't hurt would it? What is significant about the please have your orders in by x!' date?
Post by: rknize on Wed, 04 March 2020, 15:14:14
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 04 March 2020, 17:52:28
Regarding the deadline, I have discussed in the past the reason for the deadline and why it has been delayed. I want to get the dye sublimation up and running and then close up the early bird round this month. I am making good progress on the new dye sub setup and hope to start mass sublimation in April. Again my apologies that it has taken longer than expected.
So far 140 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped - every complete order that can ship, has shipped (not all unprinted keys have shipped as many are in the second shipment of the early bird round, expected in a couple months, or they have printed items in the order).
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 05 March 2020, 12:04:17
The first keyboard (first two photos below) has original IBM XT keys installed, with blank keys for the non-XT keys.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: dgneo on Thu, 05 March 2020, 12:07:53
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.
Been on the fence about grabbing one for a couple years now but this might push me over the edge :confused:
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 06 March 2020, 11:37:54
Thanks for letting me know - the project web site is back up now.
Regarding the deadline, I have discussed in the past the reason for the deadline and why it has been delayed. I want to get the dye sublimation up and running and then close up the early bird round this month. I am making good progress on the new dye sub setup and hope to start mass sublimation in April. Again my apologies that it has taken longer than expected.
So far 140 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped - every complete order that can ship, has shipped (not all unprinted keys have shipped as many are in the second shipment of the early bird round, expected in a couple months, or they have printed items in the order).
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.
PMd you here on geekhack with a question!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 07 March 2020, 16:41:20
Dye sublimation update:
I have successfully completed the dye sublimation setup! Below is a photo of the first sublimated key with the new setup. These are among the best results in any tests so far.
Upon close evaluation with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope, the sublimation is close to that of my favorite F122 from 1984. But I do not think we are yet at the point to do the comparison "can you tell the difference between which is new and which is the original?" as with the keyboard case finishes a while back (I think some people can tell the difference below). So the below photo is not indicative of the production legends.
As a recap, the decision to dye sublimate the keys myself was because of the lower quality and high unit cost of the sublimated samples I received as well as the industry professionals telling me they no longer have the equipment they used for key sublimation (in some cases) or are unwilling to sublimate non MX keys (in other cases). The goal was XT quality sublimation for one piece Model F keys. I failed to achieve consistent sublimation results over the past 10 months of testing and had been circling back and forth with a number of sublimation industry professionals, engineers, and one of the original Model F keyboard production supervisory engineers who has been a significant help to the project.
I've had to redesign and switch out much of the setup. I built some of it myself and had some of it built in the US while the CNC milled jigs were done in China. In the end I had to apply advice from different industries and online forums discussing a few industrial processes to get it to work. Even the smallest things caused trouble (one example: I thought one of the sensors was bad but it just didn't like switching power supplies so I had to get a linear regulated PS). My initial control panel setup involved analog devices only but that wasn't sufficient, so I had to design and build a digital control panel.
Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys. If all goes well I can order the sublimation transfer sheets and begin mass sublimation. Thanks again to everyone for being patient with this final part of the project.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: ljosa on Sat, 07 March 2020, 16:50:55
Post by: mode on Sun, 08 March 2020, 15:35:07
My wife is very much looking forward to receiving her F77 and has been happy to be patient and wait for dye sublimation to be done right!
Post by: macclack on Sun, 08 March 2020, 21:05:45
Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard! I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly five years and it is good to know that people appreciate the effort put into the project to have a Brand New Model F Keyboard.This is all fascinating. At some point can you post a video to show the sublimation process?
Dye sublimation update:
I have successfully completed the dye sublimation setup! Below is a photo of the first sublimated key with the new setup. These are among the best results in any tests so far.
Upon close evaluation with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope, the sublimation is close to that of my favorite F122 from 1984. But I do not think we are yet at the point to do the comparison "can you tell the difference between which is new and which is the original?" as with the keyboard case finishes a while back (I think some people can tell the difference below). So the below photo is not indicative of the production legends.
As a recap, the decision to dye sublimate the keys myself was because of the lower quality and high unit cost of the sublimated samples I received as well as the industry professionals telling me they no longer have the equipment they used for key sublimation (in some cases) or are unwilling to sublimate non MX keys (in other cases). The goal was XT quality sublimation for one piece Model F keys. I failed to achieve consistent sublimation results over the past 10 months of testing and had been circling back and forth with a number of sublimation industry professionals, engineers, and one of the original Model F keyboard production supervisory engineers who has been a significant help to the project.
I've had to redesign and switch out much of the setup. I built some of it myself and had some of it built in the US while the CNC milled jigs were done in China. In the end I had to apply advice from different industries and online forums discussing a few industrial processes to get it to work. Even the smallest things caused trouble (one example: I thought one of the sensors was bad but it just didn't like switching power supplies so I had to get a linear regulated PS). My initial control panel setup involved analog devices only but that wasn't sufficient, so I had to design and build a digital control panel.
Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys. If all goes well I can order the sublimation transfer sheets and begin mass sublimation. Thanks again to everyone for being patient with this final part of the project.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Maledicted on Sun, 08 March 2020, 21:48:41
I just snagged what may be the first re-sold F77 on Ebay, so long as it wasn't a scam. Time will tell. Comes with stabilizer inserts and space bar only, but I also snagged a cheap late 80s-ish model M with a damaged SDL jack to scavenge keys from in anticipation of winning the auction. I had another early M in need of some F keys anyway.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7kgAAOSw5BVeWaTs/s-l1600.jpg)
Industrial gray. I had planned on ordering a second F77 in that color at some point anyway. Hearing from whoever sold this would be reassuring, since the Ebay account had a whopping 0 feedback rating.
Post by: skwrn on Mon, 09 March 2020, 12:46:16
Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard! I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly (...)
Thanks for the update! Fingers crossed for the process.
Post by: beepbloop on Wed, 11 March 2020, 19:42:23
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=461064#p461064
Love the keyboard!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 March 2020, 18:45:33
Another new variation:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 16 March 2020, 19:30:44
The first variation below is the first assembled keyboard photographed with the custom Silver Gray case color. I paid for some extras of this color beyond what was ordered by everyone so I have about 10 extra cases in stock. This custom color will not be made in the final round so this is your only chance to order it. The color is difficult to photograph but the Pantone Silver Gray color is what I would describe as a gray color with a small amount of blue.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 17 March 2020, 22:19:13
(https://i.imgur.com/vqzrPpZ.jpg)
I think the more industrial-looking cable is a good fit.
(https://i.imgur.com/dB9gJhI.jpg?1)
Why not have a nice cap for it as well?
(https://i.imgur.com/qdKwWQj.jpg)
On to the boards as they come though. The powder coating job is fantastic. It does really look like something from out of the 80s, and looks and feels great in its own right regardless.
(https://i.imgur.com/6x6UIiO.jpg)
All I could think off offhand to compare it against is the bottom of this beige label Zenith Z-150 case. The F77 is obviously shinier, and there are a lot more individual blobs, which are also larger, but I think this varied a lot back then anyway. I don't have any original Zinc Fs to compare against.
(https://i.imgur.com/KFcCm4A.jpg?1)
Configuration was a breeze for me. I didn't have to adjust anything on the software side other than whatever tweaks to the mapping I wanted to do. I did have about 3 flippers that seemed to get stuck no matter how many times I would reseat the cap. The one that I noticed first I was able to fix by taking the whole plate sandwich apart and making sure that the spring was pulled all of the way down the post it is mounted on fairly uniformly, and then compare it against a good flipper assembly and bend the spring a bit until its profile seemed to match pretty well. The other two I noticed later, and I had already taken the sandwich apart multiple times for other curiosity reasons that night, so I attempted to fix them without disassembly. It was a pain, but I did end up being able to fix both of them by just sticking a flathead precision screwdriver (and sometimes gripped the spring with some needle nose pliers and pressed it down with that) down there to try to press the spring more snugly down the post of the flipper, working different spots until the spring sat fairly straight in relation to others. After that, working the switch vigorously a few minutes seemed to make them begin to function just as reliably as the one I had taken the sandwich apart to mess with, and sound as they should to boot.
I imagine that frustation over this may be why the original owner decided to just list the thing on Ebay when it is basically still brand new, but it really only took a little problem-solving. I also can't say whether or not these problems were initially user-error in that regard either.
Once I had everything working, one of the first things I noticed was that the switches (initially) felt a little rougher than an original Model F, but still far better than an M. I'm attributing this to this being a brand new board and the old Fs being all 30+-years-old. After typing on it for some time, quite a few of the alphanumeric keys already feel just as smooth as my original F boards.
Once I began comparing the feel in smoothness against one of my F ATs and my F XT, I noticed immediately that the weighting of the new boards actually feels even lighter than the original Fs, by a noticeable amount. I imagine there's a minor difference in the spring specs. My next, and most interesting, observation is that the actuation point, and tactile event, is actually quite a bit higher than that of the originals. Very close, in fact, to a Model M. I don't believe that there's a big enough difference between M and F caps to be the source of this, but perhaps? My original Fs are almost at full travel by the time that they actuate. This board is closer to a mid-high actuation point in my estimation. I couldn't quite believe this myself and initially attributed it to the lighter springs, but it was apparent even when comparing them side by side and seeing how far the cap would dip compared to the others before reaching the tactile event. I suppose that, with this design, a difference in springs may even slightly modify the point at which those springs buckle, even if the entirety of the rest of the design were identical. In all other regards, they feel just like the originals.
The difference in sound between the F77, F XT, and F AT is interesting, to say the least. The XT, of course, is extremely high-pitched and pingy. The F AT is the deepest and most subdued of the three. The F77 seems to have some characteristics of both. In spite of the entire case being made of metal, that metal is very thick, and it seems to simultaneously keep the overall pitch lower than the XT, but still almost as pingy and reverberant. Mine came, from the original owner, with nothing on the spacebar stabilizer, so it is a little wobbly and squeaky. I'm not one to care much at all about that sort of thing, but I imagine I'll just slap some dielectric grease on it and call it good if I ever bother with anything.
These things are wonderfully solid, and very thick. I think I own RIFLES that weigh less than this slab of zinc, and it is a joy to experience that. My stepped drill bit was having trouble just hacking through this thing. Overall build quality is top notch.
I think these are fantastic boards overall, and worth every penny. I imagine I'll be using this one (and at least another once my direct order ships) heavily for many, many, many years to come.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 March 2020, 09:02:58
Here are some notes:
Regarding re-seating springs: just a note for those who come across the review that in nearly all cases you do not need to take apart the keyboard to fix keys that do not click or spend a few minutes pressing a troublesome key - I have posted some videos on this thread as well as on the web site blog detailing a quick spring adjustment and key re-seating guide that requires less than one minute per key to do. Very important to reattach the key as shown in these videos, with the keyboard positioned as shown in the videos (vertically, with the space bar row up). The goal is to have the spring touch the 12 o'clock position of the barrel when the keyboard is positioned that way. If the spring end is not positioned at 12 o'clock (per the video) and the spring does not touch the barrel, buckling error is more likely to occur.
Regarding squeaky space bars - that is nearly always the case of adjusting/slightly stretching or replacing the spring rather than due to the space bar stabilizer wire. This is something I test on all keyboards as part of QC but I hope to improve on this. On a similar note, especially with rattling space bar wires as well as to prevent the space bar from getting stuck on the end of the metal tab, I recommend pressing down on the metal tabs if you re-seat the space bar (after confirming no squeak and proper buckling when pressing the space bar). I do this as needed during QC. With the final production round, the metal tabs will be adjusted a bit to minimize the need to get them out of the way manually.
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 18 March 2020, 09:49:08
Thanks for the detailed review Maledicted and for the photos, especially comparing the Zenith case.Thank you for bringing these beauties back to life Ellipse. It was certainly worth the effort.
Here are some notes:
Regarding re-seating springs: just a note for those who come across the review that in nearly all cases you do not need to take apart the keyboard to fix keys that do not click or spend a few minutes pressing a troublesome key - I have posted some videos on this thread as well as on the web site blog detailing a quick spring adjustment and key re-seating guide that requires less than one minute per key to do. Very important to reattach the key as shown in these videos, with the keyboard positioned as shown in the videos (vertically, with the space bar row up). The goal is to have the spring touch the 12 o'clock position of the barrel when the keyboard is positioned that way. If the spring end is not positioned at 12 o'clock (per the video) and the spring does not touch the barrel, buckling error is more likely to occur.
Regarding squeaky space bars - that is nearly always the case of adjusting/slightly stretching or replacing the spring rather than due to the space bar stabilizer wire. This is something I test on all keyboards as part of QC but I hope to improve on this. On a similar note, especially with rattling space bar wires as well as to prevent the space bar from getting stuck on the end of the metal tab, I recommend pressing down on the metal tabs if you re-seat the space bar (after confirming no squeak and proper buckling when pressing the space bar). I do this as needed during QC. With the final production round, the metal tabs will be adjusted a bit to minimize the need to get them out of the way manually.
I'm a tinkerer, so I honestly didn't bother to look at the guides specific to springs and flippers yet. I may try flipping a a few springs as per your suggestions on your website, since some do buzz a bit (I don't particularly care though). Having owned Model Fs for some time now, I was reseating the caps properly, but the springs were not always in the sweet spot, so it wasn't of much help until that was resolved.
Again, I have no idea what the previous owner may have done to this thing, and it has made two long shipping journeys, possibly with Ace Ventura kicking it down staircases both ways.
Do you know of any compatible newly-manufactered springs that may move the actuation point down closer to an original F offhand?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:03:18
The new Model F keys have the actuation point near the bottom of the key press on a new Model F, same as with many of the original examples. Model M keys are compatible, but with various Model M keys you may see different results when installed on a Model F. Some Model M key tolerances are 0.2 to 0.4mm off from a Model F key and that affects the actuation point.
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:18:23
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:30:01
The smoothness of new barrels contributes to a smoother and lighter feeling while typing. I have found that swabbing 99% rubbing alcohol with a Q tip around the barrels of an original Model F improves their perceived lightness and smoothness as well. Also the age of the original springs definitely changes their feel, weighting, and sound. In a few decades the new Model F springs will certainly be different in those three aspects.
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 18 March 2020, 11:42:21
I suppose I shouldn't have bothered to order the unprinted red modifier keys from Unicomp in anticipation of my black F77. Oh well, they'll find a home on some Model M at some point. Are there any particular new production caps that can ship now if I ordered some? Unprinted works for me, maybe the original pebble and pearl scheme, or a set of SSK blue?
Post by: Twsts on Wed, 18 March 2020, 12:07:37
On my AT for example, the Unicomp one piece caps actuate near the very top, giving the keyboard a little stiffer feel. While the original Model F caps feels somewhat smoother and actuate near the bottom. The two piece model M keycaps feels somewhat inbetween.
My XT has a keyfeel that is even crispier, but I haven't tried the different caps on it.
Will be sure to give it a comparison when my new model Fs arrives. :)
Post by: consolation on Thu, 19 March 2020, 07:17:39
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...
Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 19 March 2020, 08:09:34
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...
Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.
That makes sense, but don't springs also loose their elasticity as they're used? I know in handguns you'll usually start seeing frames and slides start beating each other up because the recoil spring gets to a point where it is no longer sufficiently powerful to dampen recoil.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 19 March 2020, 09:26:53
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 19 March 2020, 14:52:12
I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.
Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 19 March 2020, 17:16:01
Dye sub testing update:
I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.
Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)
Looking great. It obviously takes a real passion, perhaps obsession, for these old boards to accomplish everything that you have done. Congratulations.
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 25 March 2020, 15:25:45
Thank you to Ellipse for the hard work in recreating this beauty.
More
(https://i.imgur.com/YozmQLy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rKVBt0d.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uwqPTyt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2sI3doi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0UYaGsx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Bm5ESQg.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 March 2020, 22:10:16
As an update, over on DT thanks to DT user pandrew, an xwhatsit Model F firmware update has been released for a bug pointed out by webwit regarding the behavior of the function layers. I'd like to encourage everyone to "beta test" the firmware on their new/old Model F keyboards and share their findings so it can be the default for all future Model F's that go out.
Also over on DT, consolation posted some interesting technical findings with the new F77.
If anyone has any Model F tips and tricks please do share them!
My notes regarding the xwhatsit software:
For my setup (tested on a Lenovo laptop from several years ago), the F77 wouldn't activate all keys unless the threshold was a maximum of 122 or so, but this definitely varies by USB port and computer I am sure.
Those always pressed points on the matrix are built in to the keyboard capacitive PCB. IBM had them built into original Model F keyboards as well. My guess is they were used for calibration of the key press threshold. The xwhatsit software says these always-pressed keys should be noted as "pressed" in the layout file which is what I did in the layout files for each keyboard that has gone out. That is interesting that you had to set them to ignored to prevent random key presses. Can anyone else confirm this behavior with their Model F keyboard (new or old)? Agreed that waiting for the keyboard to go to room temperature is sometimes needed before starting to use the keyboard.
https://imgur.com/0IR9Uao
https://imgur.com/rHYQq1e
As a note here is the link to the previously posted photo album of all mailed keyboard variations that is updated whenever there is a new variation. https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
Post by: h on Fri, 27 March 2020, 15:00:03
LAlt_T (Left alt when Held, KC when Tapped)
LT (KC on tap, switch to layer when held)
Thanks in advance,
h
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 28 March 2020, 10:57:20
Post by: Lu_e on Sat, 04 April 2020, 15:52:30
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 April 2020, 10:53:05
For those beta testing the QMK Model F firmware, are there currently any downsides compared to the xwhatsit in terms of performance, ease of use, etc.?
hypx has made the first video with a solenoid connected to a Brand New Model F Keyboard! It is over on the DT project thread. https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=462403#p462403
Someone had an issue with an entire row or column of keys and I wanted to share a recommended troubleshooting procedure here as well.
If a key or row of keys doesn't work, I recommend opening up the keyboard and testing the keys by pressing a flipper manually to each key, as shown in one of the videos posted recently on the project web site blog. If an entire matrix row/column is bad, I recommend unscrewing the two screws on the controller and flexing the ribbon cable on both sides which has fixed the problem in the past in my experience. Not sure I'd recommend this but a hair dryer or heat gun (not too hot) may help reflow a bad solder joint on the controller. If the controller is determined to be bad, I will send out a replacement controller and ribbon cable (please PM me for details).
Post by: Lu_e on Sun, 05 April 2020, 20:25:27
And on the "Front-printed keys F1, etc. or HHKB Addon Set", the front printed keys in the picture have green legends. Is the representative of what is being sold, green legends on the front printed keys?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 April 2020, 20:33:39
All legends are black - please pardon the bad color in some of the photos.
Post by: pchatterjee on Mon, 06 April 2020, 00:08:32
Two more variations going out:
The first variation below is the first assembled keyboard photographed with the custom Silver Gray case color. I paid for some extras of this color beyond what was ordered by everyone so I have about 10 extra cases in stock. This custom color will not be made in the final round so this is your only chance to order it. The color is difficult to photograph but the Pantone Silver Gray color is what I would describe as a gray color with a small amount of blue.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I think thats the color I had asked for -- nnice to see it happening Ellipse!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 April 2020, 11:10:20
On an unrelated note, someone who purchased some foam to repair their PC AT has decided to post publicly their unhappy experience so I wanted to pre-empt that with my side of things.
The customer noticed that part of the foam was assembled by glue and wanted a replacement. While this is common with a number of the inner foams from the factory, I later agreed that if they just cut up the foam instead of sending it back, I'd mail them a replacement free of charge. They then made some precise cuts to make it work in a PC AT keyboard, and said that they intended on keeping it as a spare. My intention of course was to make sure the foam was cut up in a way that made the foam unusable so that they would not be keeping two foams while having paid for one. The customer interprets the situation as me having reneged on my offer. I didn't expect that "cut up" could be interpreted any other way.
Then less then 20 minutes after the customer asked for a return shipping label (which I sent by email), the customer says that the foam was discarded and they will not return the foam but still want a free replacement.
It doesn't make much sense for me to ask the customer to precisely cut the F107 foam to PC AT specifications in order to approve a replacement but that is what the customer told me was their understanding of my offer.
In the end I refunded the order in full and the original foam was not returned to me but the customer is still not happy with the experience. I am of course open to constructive criticism and suggestions.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 April 2020, 10:13:59
I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.
Post by: mode on Sat, 11 April 2020, 13:43:02
For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.
I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.
Oooft.
That hurt to read.
I'd try not to worry about it Ellipse, some people are just *******s, you've put a lot of work into something that has and will make a lot of people happy, try not to let the odd bad apple spoil what you've achieved :)
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 11 April 2020, 14:39:32
Most people are nice, a small percentage aren't. It's always going to be that way (unless the end of the world happens and the nice people get fed up).For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.
I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.
Oooft.
That hurt to read.
I'd try not to worry about it Ellipse, some people are just *******s, you've put a lot of work into something that has and will make a lot of people happy, try not to let the odd bad apple spoil what you've achieved :)
I thought your offer of a replacement foam in exchange for the destruction of the old one was well intentioned and pretty fair. I also think think you had every reasonable cause to get frustrated with the rather liberal interpretation.
Post by: KetchyKech on Mon, 13 April 2020, 14:37:53
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!
(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Post by: Twsts on Mon, 13 April 2020, 15:23:10
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!
Looking good!
What did go wrong? Changing the case should be nothing more than loosing up the outside screws? No need take off the caps, and therefore mess anything up. I have had my keyboards apart a few times, even the inner plates to change the layout. The keyfeel is still superb.
That beeing said, I had the F77 delivered without caps, and the F62 with caps installed. And Joe have done a fantastic job tuning the F62 board to perfection. I have had at it on the F77, and tuning the sound of the springs to his level sure takes some time - but well worth it.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 April 2020, 16:33:37
Changing cases of the same type (i.e. classic to classic case or compact to compact case) is not too tough but you do need to remove the keys before removing the bottom inner assembly to switch between case types. Also be sure to use both screws when re-attaching the controller to the other bottom inner assembly as it's required for grounding (otherwise the capacitive sensing won't be accurate). There should be some tape covering the bottom of the controller where the ribbon cable is soldered, so the ends do not touch the metal case. The ribbon cable ends may break through the tape and end up touching the bottom of the compact keyboard metal case if the keyboard was not correctly reassembled.
I have posted some instructional videos on how to open up the keyboard and put it back together, and the videos apply to inner assemblies from both types of cases (instructions are the same).
For troubleshooting keys that do not register in the xwhatsit software GUI, I recommend testing the PCB attached to the bottom inner assembly with the two screws but not installed with the barrels and flippers (a video posted on the web site blog shows how to do this testing).
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 13 April 2020, 16:46:03
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Looks great. I have had keys start acting up, especially on the bottom row, when pulling the whole plate sandwich out of a case before, with F ATs, my F XT, and my F77. I think it only happens when I do quite a bit of manhandling. You'll get the hang of reseating/tweaking them quickly.
I just took my F77 home this past weekend to resolve the few keys that were buzzing, and lubed the spacebar stabilizer, since I have always had dielectric grease just lying around anyway.
I know you've probably seen it before, but the emphasis on reseating the keys with all of the legends upside-down (with the board resting squarely on the side from which the cable comes out) is very important. If that doesn't work after a few tries with your problem keys, I found that using a needlenose pliers to reach at least halfway down the barrel, grabbing the spring, and pressing it as straight down onto the little nub it is attached to on the flapper (about as low as you can go without kinking the spring) usually solves the problem for me, otherwise Ellipse has also mentioned removing the spring, and reversing it. I have been able to do this entirely with needlenose pliers as well, there's at least one awesome recent guide involving plastic tube and bamboo skewers.
Are the keys that aren't registering also ones that sound/feel weird? I would worry about tackling those with physical means first. I have had plenty of capacitive buckling spring flappers refuse to register until the cap/spring orientation was just right.
Post by: KetchyKech on Mon, 13 April 2020, 18:58:34
Nice photo KetchyKech!
Changing cases of the same type (i.e. classic to classic case or compact to compact case) is not too tough but you do need to remove the keys before removing the bottom inner assembly to switch between case types. Also be sure to use both screws when re-attaching the controller to the other bottom inner assembly as it's required for grounding (otherwise the capacitive sensing won't be accurate). There should be some tape covering the bottom of the controller where the ribbon cable is soldered, so the ends do not touch the metal case. The ribbon cable ends may break through the tape and end up touching the bottom of the compact keyboard metal case if the keyboard was not correctly reassembled.
I have posted some instructional videos on how to open up the keyboard and put it back together, and the videos apply to inner assemblies from both types of cases (instructions are the same).
For troubleshooting keys that do not register in the xwhatsit software GUI, I recommend testing the PCB attached to the bottom inner assembly with the two screws but not installed with the barrels and flippers (a video posted on the web site blog shows how to do this testing).
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!
Looking good!
What did go wrong? Changing the case should be nothing more than loosing up the outside screws? No need take off the caps, and therefore mess anything up. I have had my keyboards apart a few times, even the inner plates to change the layout. The keyfeel is still superb.
That beeing said, I had the F77 delivered without caps, and the F62 with caps installed. And Joe have done a fantastic job tuning the F62 board to perfection. I have had at it on the F77, and tuning the sound of the springs to his level sure takes some time - but well worth it.
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Looks great. I have had keys start acting up, especially on the bottom row, when pulling the whole plate sandwich out of a case before, with F ATs, my F XT, and my F77. I think it only happens when I do quite a bit of manhandling. You'll get the hang of reseating/tweaking them quickly.
I just took my F77 home this past weekend to resolve the few keys that were buzzing, and lubed the spacebar stabilizer, since I have always had dielectric grease just lying around anyway.
I know you've probably seen it before, but the emphasis on reseating the keys with all of the legends upside-down (with the board resting squarely on the side from which the cable comes out) is very important. If that doesn't work after a few tries with your problem keys, I found that using a needlenose pliers to reach at least halfway down the barrel, grabbing the spring, and pressing it as straight down onto the little nub it is attached to on the flapper (about as low as you can go without kinking the spring) usually solves the problem for me, otherwise Ellipse has also mentioned removing the spring, and reversing it. I have been able to do this entirely with needlenose pliers as well, there's at least one awesome recent guide involving plastic tube and bamboo skewers.
Are the keys that aren't registering also ones that sound/feel weird? I would worry about tackling those with physical means first. I have had plenty of capacitive buckling spring flappers refuse to register until the cap/spring orientation was just right.
Thanks guys, this info is very helpful -- I will give it another shot! :thumb:
Post by: profanum429 on Mon, 13 April 2020, 21:47:33
Post by: Twsts on Tue, 14 April 2020, 01:04:26
@KetchyKech, what you could try before disambling the whole thing again, is to try to take off a few caps and pinch the barrels and wigggle them from side to side. They should feel firm across the whole board. If they are somewhat wiggly, the tension in the sandwitch is not optimal - and it will give you an uneven keyfeel. Good way to check if everything is seated correctly in the sandwitch.
I had this on my F AT, even with new foam - the keyfeel was a little off and the barrels was a slightly wiggly in the middle of the board. I had to adjust the tension with bending the barrel plate so slightly inwards.
Beeing a Model F, you can be sure it can be fixed and tweaked to your liking for sure. :thumb:
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 14 April 2020, 09:03:54
Just got my F77 today. This is coolest thing I've gotten in quite some time.
Agreed 100%. I love blue alps, but I can't help but type on my F77 instead lately.
Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit. :)
Am I missing something, or did somebody say that? I can't find it stated in recent posts.
I know one thing I'm really tempted to do is to buy a spare zinc case ... or 10, and figure out how to have Cherry or Alps plates made for them for some hand wiring.
Post by: Twsts on Tue, 14 April 2020, 11:43:20
Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit. :)
Am I missing something, or did somebody say that? I can't find it stated in recent posts.
I know one thing I'm really tempted to do is to buy a spare zinc case ... or 10, and figure out how to have Cherry or Alps plates made for them for some hand wiring.
Well if you read between the lines of Ellipse, he says you need to take of the caps to go from one chassis to another. Taking off the caps would only be needed if you have to take off the rainbow plate - to ensure no flying flippers. My guess is taking off the plate in this case would mean changing it out.
If you look at the backplate of a classic sandwich it have ears extending the PCB on both sides to clamp it to the bigger chassis with the screws, hence my understanding that these wont fit in the smaller ultra compact case, as these are not much wider than the PCB itself. Meaning you can't change from a classic to a ultra compact case or otherway around without a new backplate. Maybe Ellipse will make this more clear.
The zinc cases is sure very sturdy and every switch and keyboard should want one ;D
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 April 2020, 13:36:47
Yes the bend of the case is very important. Sometimes the bottom inner assembly bend is too much and needs to be flattened out a little for optimal sound and performance (sometimes the top inner assembly bend needs to be increased). I use a rubber mallet with the inner assembly part in a vice in these instances.
Post by: profanum429 on Wed, 15 April 2020, 17:13:33
(https://i.imgur.com/addPvdS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/C3wOgk2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pk8W2h1.jpg)
Converted it to split backspace today; first time taking apart a Model F style board, luckily it came apart and went back together fairly easily and quickly :) Looking forward to ordering some dye sub keys soon to get those in when that process is complete! Wonderful board.
Post by: TopreMoon on Fri, 17 April 2020, 00:05:01
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 April 2020, 15:59:28
How did you put the bottom and top inner assemblies back into place?
Sure TopreMoon but please also order 20 units of the store item $1 increments for this custom option.
Post by: profanum429 on Sat, 18 April 2020, 08:10:26
Thanks for posting your photos profanum429 and glad you were able to take care of the disassembly and reassembly perfectly.
How did you put the bottom and top inner assemblies back into place?
Sure TopreMoon but please also order 20 units of the store item $1 increments for this custom option.
I have a pair of soft jaw pliers that were pretty easy to use to pull the plates back together sideways then used them to snap them together at the top clips. It went back together pretty easily; pretty much like your video on disassembly and reassembly :)
Post by: Twsts on Sat, 18 April 2020, 12:05:29
(https://i.imgur.com/5VENpQc.jpg)
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 18 April 2020, 13:32:01
Added a little speaker to my F77 hooked up to the xwhatsit controller. And with the help from an Arduino nano I have a tuneable buzzer going :)That is awesome!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/5VENpQc.jpg)
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: reavy on Mon, 20 April 2020, 03:50:30
for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed
I searched and cannot find this, but it sounds fascinating. Do you or anyone else have a link to the full story?
As for difficult customers, I usually come to a “reasonable” solution that is a big disadvantage to me but reduces the likelihood of me getting doxed by them in the future. It’s why I avoid selling anything and just buy buy buy.
Post by: Vizir on Mon, 20 April 2020, 11:04:35
The original thread seems to be lost. But here's a referencefor those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed
I searched and cannot find this, but it sounds fascinating. Do you or anyone else have a link to the full story?
As for difficult customers, I usually come to a “reasonable” solution that is a big disadvantage to me but reduces the likelihood of me getting doxed by them in the future. It’s why I avoid selling anything and just buy buy buy.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgeekhack%2Eorg%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D66122%2E0&share_tid=66122&share_fid=2190&share_type=t&link_source=app
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 23 April 2020, 00:48:05
The only way for those keyboards could have been saved was if the bank folded overnight.
It's hard to see why the bank manager would risk his job, for money that would go to the bank, and a small amount as far as the bank is concerned.
We saw them as kittens in a rescue home ... But we're special.
Post by: laden3 on Sat, 25 April 2020, 12:05:01
Post by: mikaltch on Tue, 28 April 2020, 19:26:51
1. How does this change the feel/tone
2. What lube do you use and is there a specific technique in doing it?
3. Where on these switches do you lube?
Post by: rgleas on Wed, 29 April 2020, 07:09:12
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 29 April 2020, 08:45:55
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.
Post by: rgleas on Wed, 29 April 2020, 12:18:19
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.
Hey there. So I just did a quick test to see. Note that the unicomp keys are on my F77 and the F62 has the new keys, as well as that I just tested the upper right keys for each board...As for the results, the new keys on the F62 actuated at 52 grams and the unicomp keys on the F77 actuated at 55 grams. I'm basing this off of the full key sinking in as well which I'm unsure if that's exactly what you were asking. The click of the spring which I suppose does denote actuation, occurred roughly 1-2 grams prior for both. Hope this helped!
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 29 April 2020, 12:48:36
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.
Hey there. So I just did a quick test to see. Note that the unicomp keys are on my F77 and the F62 has the new keys, as well as that I just tested the upper right keys for each board...As for the results, the new keys on the F62 actuated at 52 grams and the unicomp keys on the F77 actuated at 55 grams. I'm basing this off of the full key sinking in as well which I'm unsure if that's exactly what you were asking. The click of the spring which I suppose does denote actuation, occurred roughly 1-2 grams prior for both. Hope this helped!
Sorry, I should have been more clear, although that's also interesting. Do you think that's maybe just a difference in friction? What I meant is how far the keycap depresses before the spring buckles. I mentioned in my review of my F77 that it seems to buckle higher than on original Model Fs, but I was using Model M keycaps, which apparently have slightly different geometries. I should stop being lazy and swap the caps myself, but My original Fs are all at different locations than my F77.
Post by: Azurewrath on Thu, 30 April 2020, 08:45:38
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 30 April 2020, 11:05:53
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
These boards are meant to be modified however you like. With mine, I drilled out the hole for the USB cable and glued in a nice and beefy female GX12 aviator socket, and made a corresponding cable for it.
Post by: shine on Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:12:46
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
These boards are meant to be modified however you like. With mine, I drilled out the hole for the USB cable and glued in a nice and beefy female GX12 aviator socket, and made a corresponding cable for it.
Post by: Azurewrath on Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:31:42
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)
Post by: ljosa on Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:47:40
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 30 April 2020, 14:54:40
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)
There's whatever you want. You can have a standard ISO alphanumeric cluster and whatever you want in the traditional nav cluster area to the right of that. Only the F62 would require resorting to layers for arrow keys. The F77 would only need layers if you wanted a number pad and nav cluster. If I needed to use layers for arrow keys, I wouldn't want one either.
Post by: Azurewrath on Thu, 30 April 2020, 15:15:36
There's whatever you want. You can have a standard ISO alphanumeric cluster and whatever you want in the traditional nav cluster area to the right of that. Only the F62 would require resorting to layers for arrow keys. The F77 would only need layers if you wanted a number pad and nav cluster. If I needed to use layers for arrow keys, I wouldn't want one either.I'm talking about a full normal standardized layout. That means nav cluster and a numpad.
Post by: rgleas on Thu, 30 April 2020, 19:08:45
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)
The F77 does indeed have arrow keys..
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 30 April 2020, 22:28:48
In my experience talking with those who have joined the new Model F project, many are coming from larger layouts to the more compact 60% and 75% layouts for this project.
There are some renderings of the various layouts and right side block options on both of the F77 product pages:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard-ultra-compact/
Post by: Azurewrath on Fri, 01 May 2020, 00:37:20
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:48:04
I appreciate all of your answers, don't get me wrong, but i'm really only talking about a standard full layout (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/IBM_Model_M_1391403_keyboard.jpg), nothing else.
Then what you need is one of these monstrosities:
F107
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/DSC_6526.jpg)
Or, one of these monstrosities:
F122
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/DSC_5506.jpg)
The photos are Ellipse's, I hope he doesn't mind.
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 01 May 2020, 12:25:33
Post by: depletedvespene on Sat, 02 May 2020, 15:59:36
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
Ultimately, the lack of an F row is a serious hindrance for people who use heavily the F row (including in this the mess that is mixing the `~ and Esc keys); for them, 60% and 65% form factors are unusable (*) and 75% is the minimum (**). Getting these repros to cover the TKL and/or the 75% form factors would be an instant "shut up and take my money!" moment.
(*) No, "Just use Fn+5 to make F5!" ain't enough. A two-key chord isn't much of a problem, but Ctrl-F5 (Fn-Ctrl-5) becomes uncomfortable, and stuff like Ctrl-Alt-F9 outright unpleasant.
(**) Heck, this can already be seen in people who prefer the 77-key layout over the 62-key one because of the lack of independent arrow keys.
Post by: Maledicted on Sat, 02 May 2020, 16:40:55
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
Ultimately, the lack of an F row is a serious hindrance for people who use heavily the F row (including in this the mess that is mixing the `~ and Esc keys); for them, 60% and 65% form factors are unusable (*) and 75% is the minimum (**). Getting these repros to cover the TKL and/or the 75% form factors would be an instant "shut up and take my money!" moment.
(*) No, "Just use Fn+5 to make F5!" ain't enough. A two-key chord isn't much of a problem, but Ctrl-F5 (Fn-Ctrl-5) becomes uncomfortable, and stuff like Ctrl-Alt-F9 outright unpleasant.
(**) Heck, this can already be seen in people who prefer the 77-key layout over the 62-key one because of the lack of independent arrow keys.
I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.
Post by: depletedvespene on Sat, 02 May 2020, 16:45:02
…
I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.
To each his own, of course. As per me, I'd really like to see the F62/F77 repros to be extended to the TKL format (and forget the disappointment of the FSSK) and to the 75% or even 79% form factors (something that never existed in IBM's offerings).
Post by: Maledicted on Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:06:55
…
I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.
To each his own, of course. As per me, I'd really like to see the F62/F77 repros to be extended to the TKL format (and forget the disappointment of the FSSK) and to the 75% or even 79% form factors (something that never existed in IBM's offerings).
Maybe that's a possibility over the horizon. I imagine not having to worry so much about strict adherence to/recreation of the original design would significantly speed up development and production, and he's already done the hard part in resurrecting a dead switch type. Even with the current offerings, I would love an option to just get the assembled board with no QC done, or even just the parts to assemble it, at a discount. You would think that would significantly speed up pumping these things out to people who know enough about capacitive buckling spring for it to be a non-issue for them.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 May 2020, 12:30:39
Summary: Model F orders continue shipping out, Passed ONE MILLION DOLLARS in orders, New Early Shipping Option without Keys, Reviews coming in, Sublimation Update, Second Container Ship, COVID-19 Slowdown, xwhatsit firmware update and new QMK firmware ported to xwhatsit Model F
**If you can help me by requesting early delivery of your order it would be much appreciated! Kindly see the web site blog for details before sending over your request.
I wanted to highlight the update about the dye sublimation as a number of people have been asking about it:
Sublimation update – mass sublimation expected to start in June. Given the huge number of orders so far and the amount of time I’ve recently realized it takes to QC each keyboard order, plus the longer than expected time it would take me to do each key set’s dye sublimation personally as planned, I am working with some keycap dye submination firms to take my keys and transfer sheets and take care of the work 100% to the sublimation standards I’ve already achieved, thus saving me time and allowing the orders to go out much faster than planned. This will ensure that the dye sublimation quality is up to my standards, as well as save the months of continuous dye sublimation I’d be doing – leaving me time to focus on the final QC and on getting orders out more quickly. This will help everyone’s orders to go out earlier than if I were to take care of them as originally planned, while using 100% the same materials that have produced the approved XT quality sublimation results so far (see recent blog posts for photos).
***For this reason I am sending out keyboards upon request without keys, in order to keep things moving. I encourage everyone to take advantage of this option to help me fill up the downtime by getting out orders before the keycaps finish mass sublimation. Those of you with other buckling spring (Model M or Model F) keyboards can use those keys for the time being, or order keys from Unicomp or eBay to use for the time being. Please message me first if interested and I will let you know how many units of the store item $1 increments you’ll need to order for separate shipping of printed keys (everyone can still wait for their full order to be delivered in one package too).
Once the sublimated keys come in I will be ramping up order fulfillment in order to get as many keyboards out each week as possible. I am hoping to have everything out by year end. Thanks again to everyone for their patience as we bring back these great keyboards.
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 11 May 2020, 20:55:17
I think that's asking a lot for people to buy keys or harvest from their boards, but I guess I understand the basic concept behind it. Also, you really should have outsourced the dye sublimation a year ago.
Monday morning quarterbacking, I know. But the good news is that things are still moving forward.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 May 2020, 21:16:35
The challenge is to find a good solenoid and a solenoid driver board. GH/DT user Orihalcon was selling these but not sure if there are any left.
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23707&p=462600&hilit=f62#p462600
I saw this one as a suggestion a while back - not sure if it is a good option: https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 15 May 2020, 22:25:29
A few people were asking about solenoids - a Deskthority user has added a solenoid to his Brand New Model F Classic Case Keyboard.Thanks for that info. Will look into it.
The challenge is to find a good solenoid and a solenoid driver board. GH/DT user Orihalcon was selling these but not sure if there are any left.
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23707&p=462600&hilit=f62#p462600
I saw this one as a suggestion a while back - not sure if it is a good option: https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: BlissOnTap on Wed, 20 May 2020, 16:52:01
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 May 2020, 17:09:31
Post by: BlissOnTap on Wed, 20 May 2020, 19:50:40
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 May 2020, 21:55:39
This early shipping option should be available on an ongoing basis until I can start sending out the sublimated keys.
Also as an update the QMK firmware porting process continues to progress nicely. I have seen the QMK online configuration tool and it is easy to use - the advantage is that you can update the keys while graphically visualizing the physical locations of the keys, unlike xwhatsit where you have to press a key to see where on the matrix it is, in order to adjust its value. Also planned is a GUI configuration tool for offline use on Windows, Mac, and Linux. Big thanks to the QMK team, pandrew, tentator, and everyone else involved in the project!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 May 2020, 22:31:53
Inner foam update: the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used. The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam. The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy. For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!). After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material. In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 27 May 2020, 11:29:26
In the coming days I will be sending out many of the early requested keyboards - will reply to the recent requests once I have sent out most of the current requests.
Inner foam update: the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used. The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam. The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy. For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!). After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material. In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).
Personally, I want whatever is going to last the longest on mine. The F77 I picked up on Ebay, which I imagine has the denser foam, sounds great as it is. I would rather have it last, all things considered. I should compare how it sounds against my F107 though, now that I have one. I'm pretty sure the crap that's in there is original, and not in the best of shape. Which Model Fs had the non-crumbly foam you speak of?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 May 2020, 11:37:40
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 27 May 2020, 12:01:05
Both foam types are durable and long lasting - the difference is just in the density and authenticity of materials. Many keyboards have instances of the better IBM foam (non crumbly) such as the XT, one of my original F77 keyboards (refurbished by IBM in 1991), and probably other models. The 107 and 122's (and some XT's) seemed to favor the crumbly foam. Interestingly the side foam strips are the crumbly type on the better IBM foam.
That's freaking cool. I didn't even know that IBM did that. I haven't seen one of those repair history cards inside of an IBM keyboard before ... probably because they're IBM keyboards, must be like finding a mermaid and unicorn in a leprechaun's pot of gold.
Informative post, as always. Makes me want to take a peek inside of my F XT again. I do think that one's foam was surprisingly intact.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 May 2020, 09:46:09
I was thinking of entering bootloader mode and then running xwhatsit's EEPROM_eraser.hex file but wanted to double check.
Post by: mikaltch on Fri, 29 May 2020, 12:27:32
https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/gst1n6/ic_nicenano_the_super_thin_wireless_bluetooth/
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 29 May 2020, 14:51:51
Stumbled across some excitement about this new wireless bluetooth add-on for bluetooth keyboards lately. Wondering if this is of any use since apparently it can be a drop in replacement for a ProMicro which has been used on Model M/F boards before.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/gst1n6/ic_nicenano_the_super_thin_wireless_bluetooth/
That sounds amazing. That's maybe more of a question for Hasu (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3412), though? I think xwhatsit is another beast. This is starting to make me think about having wireless external keyboard protocol converters as well. That would certainly be interesting as well, to say the least.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 June 2020, 00:18:20
Also are some basic instructions that someone helped me put together on how to create a hex firmware file with all the patch files and how to run the capsense GUI on linux (with the usual disclaimers - instructions are for informational purposes only, should not be construed as technical advice or recommendations).
Yesterday I confirmed that the xwhatsit GUI utility still runs on the latest Windows, Mac, and Linux.
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 02 June 2020, 00:22:38
Attached are the 0.9.2 xwhatsit firmware files for alternative debounce 6 and 11. These files include joc's alternative debounce updates from the 0.9.1 update and pandrew's recent work fixing the firmware layer bug. I have recompiled these firmware files to show a keyboard as having version 0.9.2 in the xwhatsit GUI program. Big thanks to DT forum member pandrew for fixing the firmware layer bug.Marking for future reference.
Also are some basic instructions that someone helped me put together on how to create a hex firmware file with all the patch files and how to run the capsense GUI on linux (with the usual disclaimers - instructions are for informational purposes only, should not be construed as technical advice or recommendations).
Yesterday I confirmed that the xwhatsit GUI utility still runs on the latest Windows, Mac, and Linux.
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 June 2020, 14:09:04
As a note I just ordered a small run of xwhatsit solenoid drivers, and am looking into having the solenoids themselves custom made. They can now be ordered on the project web site, and the US shipping cost is included on the project web site (contact me for international shipping quotes (will cost $15 to $20 most likely - may be best to ship a bunch in one package on each continent to save a lot on shipping). More details here:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/xwhatsit-beam-spring-or-model-f-controller/
These should start shipping next month, but will be low priority compared to getting out keyboards. Fortunately they are far easier to QC and ship than a keyboard. If the dye sub keys arrive then, these will ship out more slowly.
Attached is a photo of an old xwhatsit solenoid driver in one of my beam spring keyboards.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 02 June 2020, 14:50:50
Random additional question:
I can't find any good pictures of the dark gray caps. I assumed they were in the product page for the extra sets, but I believe one of your answers in the Q&A section says that they're not pictured. (Thinking that they were made me write them off as too light before) You had a comparison picture earlier in this thread that showed black next to dark gray, and I could not tell the difference between the two, maybe partly because of the glare from the light on them. Are they sort of like on a Realforce board where they're so dark that they look black, but the legends are just slightly darker? If so, I'll probably have to get a set of those as well.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:06:48
They are a 60% dark gray color.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:49:23
Yep they're hard to photograph. Here's another photo that someone posted on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f
They are a 60% dark gray color.
That looks great, almost metallic in that picture. They had the same idea as me in mixing dark gray and Industrial SSK blue. I might use Unicomp's red caps though as well.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 June 2020, 23:22:16
It's tricky to find the best box for the job!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 03 June 2020, 15:37:42
Help! Lots of key output when I plug in my new keyboard! + Emergency way to do a clean firmware load
https://imgur.com/a/kth6dHt
A few people asked me how to do an emergency clean firmware load. For example if you store the threshold value too low and you have a layout already programmed, dozens of keys will send signals to your computer randomly and it could lock up your keyboard.
I have provided step by step instructions with photos and screenshots on how to go through all the steps to get your xwhatsit powered keyboard up and running again.
I'd definitely appreciate people taking a look at it and letting me know their feedback/corrections.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 June 2020, 11:56:16
I purposely set a too-low voltage threshold on a keyboard with a configured layout and clicked store to eeprom. Then keyboard started outputting lots of keys. I restarted the computer with the keyboard disconnected, then used pandrew's utility, followed the rest of the steps on my imgur instructional album, and it was successfully fixed!
Post by: reavy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 12:03:56
I'm curious to know if I can expect the dark gray from modelfkeyboards to match reasonably the way the modelfkeyboards pearl/pebble seems to match Unicomp's.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 June 2020, 14:17:03
The keys look great on the original IBM keyboard!
reavy the keys may be a different color. Mine are 60% gray.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 05 June 2020, 14:51:16
Post by: reavy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 15:03:38
When calibrating voltage thresholds in the xwhatsit, do people typically have to do this when moving the keyboard from one computer to the next, or when changing power supplies or connecting computers to different mains electricity? Curious if the keyboard is really stable once configured or if people are finding that the keyboard needs to be recalibrated when the environment changes.
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 05 June 2020, 15:19:22
Nice photos!
When calibrating voltage thresholds in the xwhatsit, do people typically have to do this when moving the keyboard from one computer to the next, or when changing power supplies or connecting computers to different mains electricity? Curious if the keyboard is really stable once configured or if people are finding that the keyboard needs to be recalibrated when the environment changes.
Honestly, I have a new production F77 that I purchased used, and an F107 that also has the same controller. I haven't had to touch a single setting on them at all myself, other than playing with mapping out of preference. I have used the F77 at home and at work. I suppose I probably haven't used it on more than 3 or 4 different computers though.
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 05 June 2020, 16:20:19
Now to get some temporary keycaps...
Post by: reavy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 21:59:42
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 05 June 2020, 22:40:28
The problem that I’m having now is that most keys register correctly, but every so often I get two spaces from the space bar with each press. Happens about one out of ten times.
Read back through the posts in this thread about debounce firmware settings. This is brought up enough that it almost makes me think that there should be a sticky thread dedicated to it here somewhere. Maybe there is, here or on Deskthority?
Post by: fer.real on Sat, 06 June 2020, 12:33:06
Post by: reavy on Sat, 06 June 2020, 13:47:15
Read back through the posts in this thread about debounce firmware settings. This is brought up enough that it almost makes me think that there should be a sticky thread dedicated to it here somewhere. Maybe there is, here or on Deskthority?
Thanks. The answer was staring me right in the face. I was able to pull the new firmware from Ellipse's site and load it easily. Just updating to the new version that came out in the last few days seems to have done the trick for me.
Post by: reavy on Sat, 06 June 2020, 13:50:13
Please excuse my ignorance. I thought that EC keyswitches don't need debounce time, because actuation isn't caused my two mechanical parts touching each other. What causes the need for debounce?
The sensing still happens by interpreting an analog signal created by the capacitive interaction of switch parts in the board, and that signal needs to be interpreted by the controller. You can imagine that the spring itself probably introduces enough vibration to cause a pretty noisy signal close to the metal.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 June 2020, 10:10:48
My QC work has been slowed down by having to open up many of keyboards to fix misplaced flippers and add a bit of solder to some leads on ribbon cables that were not soldered (I look for and fix 100% of these issues before sending out each keyboard of course). The QC from the factory definitely needs improvement to speed things along.
In order to minimize the time it takes to send out keyboards from the second container shipment (and future keyboard orders from the final round) I have asked the factory in recent weeks to load the 0.9.2 debounce 6 firmware and test that each row, column, and flipper are properly set up for all keyboards. I wrote up the testing procedure - if any rows or columns are not detected properly in xwhatsit they will touch up the solder and/or replace the controller. They will also be replacing the compact case screws with custom made T8 screws which should be a little easier to work with. The board repairs were the biggest bottleneck in getting out more keyboards each day.
Post by: reavy on Tue, 09 June 2020, 12:55:50
I looked around on GitHub hoping to find some evidence of xwhatsit/ibm-capsense controller development, but nothing obvious came up. It sounds like there are at least two GH/DT users who have been working on improvements to the firmware, though. It looks like xwhatsit was using Git to manage his code (based on the presence of .gitignore files in the code bundles). I am considering setting up a repository on GitHub where all this work can be consolidated and tracked for future users and improvements. I believe this should be appropriate since the code is GPLv3'ed. It looks like xwhatsit hasn't been active on GH since 2015, which is too bad for us and for him now that the new keyboards are being shipped out.
One obvious improvement would be to get auto calibration working cleanly with the new boards. Last I heard from anyone is that auto calibration doesn't work.
There has been talk about porting QMK onto the controller to replace the firmware that xwhatsit originally wrote, but I'm not super familiar with QMK and its magic.
Post by: reavy on Tue, 09 June 2020, 14:53:59
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:05:04
Yes it would be great to get auto voltage calibration or per-key voltage settings working on QMK or xwhatsit on the current hardware. Can anyone with an xwhatsit-controlled keyboard help with testing this?
Fully working (but still "beta" right now) QMK firmware has been developed for the xwhatsit hardware and has been working 100% in testing so far. Voltage setting seems to be all automatic. There is active discussion and development/testing efforts over on the DT project thread by users pandrew, tentator, and others.
There is also a cool new utility that auto sends to bootloader any xwhatsit controller regardless of xwhatsit or QMK firmware. Big help if your voltage threshold needs adjustment and you get lots of key spamming as soon as your keyboard is plugged in.
unofficial 0.9.1 firmware was done by DT user Joc and fixed the debounce filter. 0.9.2 was pandrew's work to fix a function layer bug.
Post by: reavy on Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:11:18
Post by: macclack on Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:19:55
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.
(Attachment Link)
Respect for taking that thing to work. I bet it gets some fun reactions.
Post by: reavy on Tue, 09 June 2020, 15:22:57
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 09 June 2020, 16:33:24
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.
(Attachment Link)
Respect for taking that thing to work. I bet it gets some fun reactions.
I had mine at work for weeks, and I previously used an F AT off and on (at both locations). The only reason I took it home is I thought they may be shutting the air conditioning off for the summer, and it would be a shame for anything on that baby to get rusty.
People, old and young (I work in a school district) tend to get a kick out of my weird old keyboards. It starts some great conversations about technology.
I'm using an old Nan Tan board there at the moment. I have had a student complain about the Model Fs, but nobody has disliked Kailh box thick clicks, or Alps ... or Cherry MX blue ... for some reason.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:09:18
Does 0.9.2 incorporate the fixes from 0.9.1, too? I assume so but want to be sure.
Yes confirmed
Post by: reavy on Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:22:12
There are two funny things about this board. The first is that the left ctrl and left shift keys make contact along their top and bottom edges respectively. I shaved those edges down with a box knife razor, and now they're sliding past each other without touching.
The second thing you can see somewhat in the picture. The right-side ctrl (Fn) key and Num Lock are out of alignment with Alt and Shift. It's like they're rotated by one degree or so clockwise. I'm not sure if this is an issue with the barrels underneath or what.
[attach=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 June 2020, 18:03:04
I have also installed IBM Model M keys and Model F keys on these keyboards and they did not have the issues you mention. The spacing is 100% to IBM specs.
In general the Model F / Model M design allows for rotational movement of keys, possibly unlike other mechanical keyboard key designs. The original IBM Ctrl keys on my F122's have 1-2mm rotation, for example.
Post by: reavy on Tue, 09 June 2020, 18:05:05
Is it possible to manually torque the barrels in these new model Fs to change the rotation, or are they fixed to the plate at a fixed rotational angle?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 09 June 2020, 19:21:54
Yes, you are correct. These are Unicomp keys on a new Model F keyboard. I'll wait and pass judgment once dye sub is complete ;)
Is it possible to manually torque the barrels in these new model Fs to change the rotation, or are they fixed to the plate at a fixed rotational angle?
My F107, which currently has Unicomp caps on it, has some caps that aren't always exactly straight either. It seems to me that the tolerances are just a little loose? Mine wiggle around. I didn't even notice such a thing until I got the F107, which a previous owner had put the Unicomp caps on. Personally, I didn't care and thought no more about it. Now that you mention it, I compared it to my early Model M caps that I slapped on my F77, and those seem much straighter in general, and there's a lot less slop when I try to jiggle them from side to side. I have a few Unicomp caps on it as well, for media controls, and those are similarly loose to the Unicomp caps on the original F107 barrels.
Post by: reavy on Thu, 11 June 2020, 13:38:37
Space bar lag issues I was having before have been solved by fiddling with the spring and stabilizer bar. Improved space bar sound seems to correlate with improved space bar performance.
Post by: BlissOnTap on Thu, 11 June 2020, 16:39:06
Paint job looks great and no blemishes on it that have been mentioned by others. Stunning build quality. The stock voltage threshold of 122 was too low to work right; at 124 all the key spamming went away.
The switches feel much lighter than other vintage Model F switches I have tried in my very limited experience. I think others have noted that, too. Unfortunately the Unicomp keycaps I have are not compatible. They cause binding and terrible scratchiness so bad I worry it will damage the barrels. When using vintage keycaps there are no issues and feels great. But in my experience Unicomp keycaps are not compatible and visually are different. I should have done more research on that and grabbed some vintage keycaps off ebay. Just an FYI if someone else is wondering about new Unicomp keycaps.
Amazing keyboard otherwise.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 June 2020, 18:58:51
Glad your F77 arrived safely BlissOnTap!
Everyone please do share photos of your new Model F if you don't mind! It is great to see these keyboards set up in their new homes!
I don't think one can damage the barrels with regularly installed keys. I've installed some Unicomp key sets on new Model F keyboards with no issues - was your Unicomp set made in the past 1-2 years?
Yes the good thing is that there are many terminal and regular ps/2 Model M keyboards from which to borrow keys.
Post by: Bookman3 on Fri, 12 June 2020, 00:01:51
Saw it mentioned on the website, but can’t quite tell from the conversations on here
Thanks!
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Post by: Pete on Fri, 12 June 2020, 05:29:28
Post by: str8away on Fri, 12 June 2020, 06:47:31
Quick question just so I know what to expect — are we getting tracking numbers when keyboards ship?Yeah I got an email saying mine shipped with a tracking number.
Saw it mentioned on the website, but can’t quite tell from the conversations on here
Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: BlissOnTap on Fri, 12 June 2020, 12:37:49
I've installed some Unicomp key sets on new Model F keyboards with no issues - was your Unicomp set made in the past 1-2 years?
They are brand new from Unicomp. The stem on the new Unicomps are different from the stems on my old IBM M/F keycaps that I have.
[attach=1]
Left grey keycap is a new Unicomp and right beige keycap is from an IBM board.
Also, thanks for having the space bar pre-installed. I was worried I would break the metal tabs installing one since I have never tinkered with a Model F before.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 June 2020, 12:48:05
Still time to request early shipping of your new Model F without keys (check the blog for details before making your request). Please allow a week or two for me to reply.
Bookman - yes everyone gets a tracking number in an email when it ships.
Pete - as you may have seen reading the recent updates, printed keys are going out later this year, not yet.
Bliss - as a note my keys are a reproduction of the one piece IBM Model F design, while the other keys are based on the IBM Model M design (some one piece, some two piece keys).
Yes I do install the space bar for all those who ordered one as part of a key set, as I want it to sound right for everyone. I have configured so many that it's quick for me to get it right. One can possibly damage the space bar as the little tabs can break off if the space bar is removed incorrectly.
Post by: CapnCrunch53 on Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:14:20
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:17:49
Post by: CapnCrunch53 on Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:18:53
Post by: Bookman3 on Fri, 12 June 2020, 16:08:07
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Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 June 2020, 17:31:03
Also does anyone have a .l xwhatsit layout file for the UK or for something else I haven't yet shared on ModelFKeyboards.com/code that they could post? Would like to include it in the available layout files.
Post by: Damage on Sat, 13 June 2020, 21:07:43
A few pictures and more of my impressions of the board right here, including a typing sound test, for anyone interested: https://twitter.com/scottwasson/status/1270845545234542594?s=21
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 13 June 2020, 22:27:48
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 June 2020, 23:11:35
Post by: funkmon on Mon, 15 June 2020, 18:23:16
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:06:57
"I spent a couple of hours going nuts until I finally figured it out.
I have a F77 that arrived a few days ago. I put some keys on it and gave it a spin. Awful, simply awful.
Key presses would register or not register. Random text would appear while typing. Unusable.
Turns out I was using a 4 port non-powered Anker USB hub. Works fine for my model M’s, and the rest of my keyboards BUT not the F77.
I then plugged the F77 into a powered USB hub and tada, all is good.
Hope this helps others."
Post by: Bookman3 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:22:32
I’ve learned since this is fairly common for custom mk’s and always recommended to use builtin ports
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Post by: bigpook on Fri, 19 June 2020, 16:32:46
Been awhile since I have been here but got the F77 a few days ago. Put on some loaner caps and here we are. If you like buckling spring keyboards, you will love this one.
Cheers!
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:58:18
You wanted to see the Unboxing Video. I quickly recorded it without proper sound equipment or great editing. You basically see the two raw videos I merged together with the sound recorded by my cam. It has just been uploaded to youtube. If you want to get the HD version, you need to check back a little later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNYUK0dgMFM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNYUK0dgMFM)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 June 2020, 14:14:23
Wonderful unboxing video and photos darkcruix - thank you for posting it!
Regarding the gap you pointed out in one of the cases - usually this is the issue of it being assembled with the inner assembly slightly out of place so the case can't close fully (it's tricky to get it exactly right - I usually adjust with the keyboard bottom side up, inside the foam packaging for protection. There are registration bumps on the left and right sides to line up the keyboard with the corresponding holes on the inner assembly). Sometimes the factory didn't 100% correctly adjust the case after it came out of the mold. They actually use a rubber mallet to adjust the cases back to spec if needed (I'd be careful if I were doing this after it's been powdercoated though - if anyone has any ideas please let me know).
Post by: darkcruix on Sun, 21 June 2020, 14:45:45
Here a few photos of the first three keyboards I stated using today. The impression after day #1 is that all three new keyboards are sounding great and are very close. I compared them with my F122 and F107 and they are super close to the F107. Biggest difference is the space bar, which sounded on the older versions higher pitched.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Maledicted on Sun, 21 June 2020, 17:16:02
Maybe that was somehow due to rough handling in shipping, since I imagine both boards have had long shipping journeys at least least twice in their lives.
Post by: darkcruix on Mon, 22 June 2020, 01:54:50
This is how it looked before re-aligning the backplate:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 22 June 2020, 02:25:17
Those are some great boards you've got by the way. You make me want to order even more, knowing I still have a black F77 coming eventually still.
Post by: Pete on Tue, 23 June 2020, 03:15:20
DT user Twst has posted a great video testing out a newly installed solenoid in a Brand New F77!
That’s amazing! How difficult is it to obtain and install?
Post by: helborne on Tue, 23 June 2020, 11:24:17
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 June 2020, 12:03:41
Beam spring controllers are priced at $100 shipped (within the US) for a little while, and then the price will go up to $119.
Is there any interest in the displaywriter beam spring controller? I'd need commitments for 5-10 controllers at $100 each to order these controllers.
I have just posted the June update on the project web site, for those who have not been following the forum threads closely in the past month and want a summary of all the updates in one place.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Pete I have just listed the xwhatsit solenoid drivers in the store (they have been nearly impossible to find in recent times) and I am planning on offering a custom made solenoid in the near future.
Summary of the blog update:
1 Orders continue shipping out (still time to order keyboards and add accessories to your order) and reviews and photos continue coming in!
2 Beam spring controllers and solenoid drivers are now available to order. Custom made solenoids to follow soon (compatible with all xwhatsit keyboards: Model F and beam spring!)
3 The early shipping option is still available (can request your keyboard to ship within about one month; details below)
4 Factory updates, details on my final stage QC work before each keyboard goes out: Dye sublimation setup continues this month at the factory. They are working as quickly as possible to start mass sublimation of key sets.
5 Some additional updates: xwhatsit 0.9.2 firmware update, photos, QMK firmware, more Model F technical tips
Why is shipping slower than expected? How will it speed up in the future? When can my keyboard ship? Read on to find out…
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 23 June 2020, 14:41:37
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:14:34
Post by: sam123456 on Thu, 25 June 2020, 19:10:18
Long time enthusiast, first time poster here.
These boards look absolutely beautiful, and I am inclined to put in an order for one.
While I love the look of the original F77, I really value my mousing space, so I'm looking at the Ultra Compact Modern Case F77. However, it seems like most of the pictures folks are posting are of the original style F77s, so I was wondering if I could get a little bit more of an idea of how the ultra compact modern case looks, or perhaps just a bit of clarification on the colors.
The only pictures I've found of that case are the listing on the modelfkeyboards website, and these:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=231913;image
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=233622;image
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=234295;image
However, I haven't seen any pictures of the the board in grey with any keys in it - the contrast in color between the board and keys might help me understand what the grey color actually looks like. I also haven't seen the board in Carolina blue or dark blue - do you (or anyone else!) have any pics of those that you could share? Am I correct in assuming that they are the same colors as these?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=234085;image
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=234083;image
Also, I am considering the blue keycaps, but I can't find any pictures of the printed versions of those. Am I correct that the full set of blue keycaps wouldn't have the rather unique legends from the industrial SSK set?
Finally, any idea of the backlog time for orders that are being put in now? :D
If all this info is available elsewhere, my apologies.
Cheers,
Sam
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 25 June 2020, 19:53:26
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f
https://imgur.com/9Aq2KHj
https://imgur.com/dHui5kr
I don't have any photos of the sublimated keycaps in other colors just yet. Correct the Industrial SSK legends are only found in the Industrial SSK key set.
Backlog is still significant (have shipped more than 300 so far but have a ways to go) but there's an option to have your keyboard shipped within a month of your order date, ahead of the key sets (check out the recent blog entries for more details if interested).
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 26 June 2020, 17:50:38
Yes absolutely Sam. I have actually posted an album of all the various keyboard configurations that have been mailed out, including the compact case keyboards:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f
https://imgur.com/9Aq2KHj
https://imgur.com/dHui5kr
I don't have any photos of the sublimated keycaps in other colors just yet. Correct the Industrial SSK legends are only found in the Industrial SSK key set.
Backlog is still significant (have shipped more than 300 so far but have a ways to go) but there's an option to have your keyboard shipped within a month of your order date, ahead of the key sets (check out the recent blog entries for more details if interested).
I may be misremembering, or things have changed, but I thought that you previously said that the early shipment to the customer was only for boards in the first early bird shipment. I know I ordered back in December (initially with no caps, changed to blank ones) and tried to go the low serial number route to get one as fast as possible (I don't think I ended up with one particularly low, F77 191 apparently). When there was first mention of shipping some early back in March, you said mine was in the second shipment arriving in some months. Has this changed somehow more recently?
Just curious. I'm in no way in any rush anymore since I have an F107 and Ebay find F77 now anyway.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 26 June 2020, 23:02:03
Maledicted you are correct that not all early bird shipments are in stock. We're all in the early bird now. The first of two container shipments of the early bird round arrived last year and I've been mailing out keyboards since then. The second container shipment of the early bird round should be leaving China in about one month from now (more details on the blog).
I just finished cataloging all the remaining keyboard inventory on hand and found some keyboard variations I thought I didn't have in stock a few months ago (like some with True Red F77 and F62 cases - please feel free to let me know ASAP if anyone's interested and check out the web site for ordering information).
Over on DT we were discussing IBM's pricing and approach with "full service" maintenance contracts. On a somewhat related note I thought I'd summarize the project philosophy (was talking with someone about this recently) and how I share some aspects with IBM (importance of quality, a focus on an exact reproduction but with updates to allow usage with modern devices) but differ on the full service vs. DIY approach to maintenance and repairs. As always if someone wants to share a better way of wording it please do!
Model F Project philosophy: full user control of product maintenance and repairs
The Model F keyboard is a robust design. Every part is 100% user-replaceable / user-repairable, often needing just a couple tools: screwdrivers, pliers, and at most a soldering iron. Compared to other consumer electronics products, Model F repair is easy and even a complete beginner can get up to speed quickly on how to use the keyboard software and keep their keyboard going for decades to come.
To reiterate the project philosophy, this is a community type project where the goal is to have a product that you can use and learn to maintain yourself for decades from now, long after production has ended, with help from the community if need be. The most basic recommended maintenance involves just taking off the keys with a wire key cap puller to clean them with mild soap and water every now and then.
I know I'm used to just bringing something back to the store if anything is wrong with it and for something complicated like a motherboard or graphics card that's probably the best option, but the new Model F project philosophy is for the users to be able to fix small issues themselves due to the simplicity and full repairability of the Model F design (many buyers come from the world of the original IBM keyboards that are decades old and almost certainly require some maintenance work, so they expect it and are used to it). This keeps costs down so I am able to offer these keyboards at less than half of what IBM charged for them (adjusted for inflation). Also there's a great community of Model F keyboard fans, most prominently on sites like Deskthority and geekhack. You will never be out of reach of someone who can offer you advice and help in the coming years.
There are definitely markets for hardware with service contracts. Not sure about a market for a +$100 more costly keyboard with full maintenance and technical support though. IBM's 1980s price guides mentioned they would require charging banking customers a minimum of about $100 per year (not adjusted for inflation) for each original Model F keyboard in maintenance costs as part of a service contract. However, if I had to hire staff to deal with "free" returns, more personalized technical support / phone support, and doing even the most minor repairs (re-seating keys, replacing springs and barrels, changing the USB cable, etc.), each keyboard would cost a lot more because of overhead costs, and these keyboards are already not inexpensive to begin with. And it would slow me down even further mailing out these great keyboards. I believe that this direct to consumer, community type project is the best way to bring the Model F to as many people as possible and at the lowest possible cost.
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 26 June 2020, 23:38:13
I love your approach. You're making great boards at a great value. I would even personally prefer just skipping the final QC process and letting me work out the kinks myself, though it makes sense to do in general. I hate always being deterred from making modifications to something I own by pesky warranties, and warranty seals ... which rarely ever end up being of any use anyway. I imagine most, if not all, of these Model Fs are going to be serviceable with minor maintenance, or no maintenance, long after we're all dead.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 June 2020, 11:16:27
Check out page 49, IBM 4704 section, 4662 and 4677 keyboards (F62 and F77): $21 a month minimum maintenance charges per keyboard as of 1984. The F62 cost 340 and the F77 cost 375 in 1984 dollars which means $839 and $925 in today's dollars (4607 was the F107 model - page 48).
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/serviceForConsultants/Service_For_Consultants_198401/198401_03_Hardware_Prices.pdf
I am getting close to ordering the custom made solenoids. The factory has just submitted the technical drawings and specifications. I am aiming to order a custom solenoid that will be even beefier than the original solenoid - a variation of the solenoid that is on eBay, but customized with an adjustable throw of about 0.5 to 5mm for people who want something plug and play, factory set to 1mm throw, without having to drill or adjust anything. Will let everyone know the update once I have more details.
When the solenoid is activated there is a metal on metal click, and the solenoid cylinder has a rubber O ring between the strike bar and the metal clip so the return sound is quieter (otherwise there would be 2 loud clicks for each key press).
ebay version: https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 30 June 2020, 13:11:12
PSA: A note on package theft and porch pirates - how you can help
Millions of packages are stolen every year, from what I have recently read.
Unfortunately the contents of a delivered Brand New Model F Keyboard order appear to have been stolen recently. I am working with the buyer and through proper channels to investigate the matter and cannot comment further on it at this time.
There are some misconceptions on this topic, but if a package is delivered and then the package and/or its contents go missing (possibly from "porch pirates"), the seller is not held responsible for paying for a new order, and shipping insurance does not cover packages after they are delivered (though some of the big companies can afford to take the loss and decide to replace the order, or mandate buyer-friendly resolutions as a matter of policy so some buyers mistakenly believe they have no liability for any package theft from any company they order from). It is a similar situation to someone breaking into your car or house and taking your property - the place you bought the item from is not responsible. I know this does not seem fair but that is the current state of the matter. Obviously please do first check with those who live around you as someone may have taken in the package to help you.
How you can help:
1. Please email me immediately about any Brand New Model F listings that you see that are not mine, as they may be stolen property and I can first check the serial number and, if needed, alert the proper channels. Each keyboard has a serial number I can track to a specific owner, and I know the serials that are reported missing vs. if someone is just selling what they ordered which is fine (a serial number not listed as missing is not a problem). If the serial label has been defaced or removed, it may be a stolen item.
2. I will recommend again that everyone orders signature confirmation if someone is not able to be there to accept the package, or arrange to have the package held for delivery by USPS or at a UPS store (I don't think there's a cost to hold mail). For signature confirmation please order 7 units of the store item $1 increments and note "signature confirmation" if interested in that option (this amount is for shipments within the US; contact me for international rates). This way you prevent the package from being taken after it is delivered. Given the low rate of package thefts I do not force everyone to pay more; it is optional though theft does happen and you could lose a lot more than $7 if your package is taken after delivery. When you receive a package, make sure it is approximately the weight you ordered before signing for it and consider refusing delivery if there is a discrepancy. In my order confirmation emails I add notes on what shipped and what has not shipped, and you can see on the package tracking page the exact weight of the shipment. A note that your entire order may not ship in one shipment so please be aware that you may correctly be receiving only a portion of what you ordered in one shipment. The shipping companies usually don't let you open a package to inspect it before signing, but if a package appears to weigh far less than what was on the label or it looks too small you do not have to sign for it. A classic case keyboard box is 18 or 21 x 13 x 3 inches (depending on F62 vs. F77) and a compact case keyboard box is about 18 or 21 x 8 x 3 inches.
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 30 June 2020, 13:32:18
I particularly hate how most apartment complexes work. I can't count how many times I have walked into one and just seen packages lying about near the individual boxes of tenants, in a lobby that's completely accessible to the public. A stranger walking up to a house and nabbing a package, then leaving that house, looks a lot more suspicious than somebody walking into an apartment lobby and grabbing a package, where hundreds of people may come and go in a day, tenants and visitors alike, and very few people know each other at all.
Post by: helborne on Tue, 30 June 2020, 13:38:44
A) Offer the buyer the option for signed delivery (noticed Ellipse's response, it should be more explicit during the checkout process that the package will not require signature).
B) Offer the buyer the option to insure the package.
C) Both
Honestly I thought my Model F was going to require a signature given the value of the package, but no, that was not the case. This is an unfortunate oversight that should be rectified for future orders, or at the very least allow people the option to upgrade their shipments to have those services. If they choose not to, then that's a different story. I feel for the person that had their Model F stolen. Good luck
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 30 June 2020, 13:51:50
Maybe it's time to:
A) Offer the buyer the option for signed delivery (noticed Ellipse's response, it should be more explicit during the checkout process that the package will not require signature).
B) Offer the buyer the option to insure the package.
C) Both
Honestly I thought my Model F was going to require a signature given the value of the package, but no, that was not the case. This is an unfortunate oversight that should be rectified for future orders, or at the very least allow people the option to upgrade their shipments to have those services. If they choose not to, then that's a different story. I feel for the person that had their Model F stolen. Good luck
That sounds like he was describing most of what you've asked to take place? It has been a while since I have built a custom computer, but the last time I did, Newegg shipped everything with a signature required ... without ever giving me an option, or mentioning the fact that they did. Nobody is ever home during the hours that carriers actually attempt delivery, so a required signaturei s a no-go for me. I eventually just had to have them hold the computer parts at a hub 20 miles away and drive there to get them. There was nowhere closer to do it in that case.
Post by: sam123456 on Wed, 01 July 2020, 12:37:30
Thanks for the quick reply to my questions last week.
After a huge amount of second guessing myself on which configuration I will be happiest with (such second guessing is lot easier to do when you expect to be using something for over a decade), my order is in!
To briefly switch back to my question about the backlog: I'm mostly just concerned about whether I should expect the delivery before I move to a different apartment next year, in which case I'll need to be sure to make some reminders to myself to send you an updated address.
Cheers,
Sam
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 01 July 2020, 16:40:21
For everyone with an address change, please email me at least two weeks before your address changes, and let me know the effective date of the new address.
Regarding dye sublimation, the factory is now doing trial jig designs to get the alignment perfect. Equal alignment on these keys is probably one of the most important aspects of the "XT quality" keys.
IBM was quite variable over the years with the actual distance from the top/left sides for key alignment but as long as it's consistent within a key set (as was the case with IBM) it will be acceptable. Equality of alignment matters more than actual distance, but I am aiming for the characters to be 1/20th inch away from top and 1/20th inch away from the left side of the key corner as it is on a number of my original Model F keyboards.
Solenoid driver update - solenoid driver samples are confirmed working and solenoid driver assembly should finish soon.
Note: the solenoid driver activity LED for diagnostic purposes does not work (the LED never worked even on my original solenoid driver made directly by xwhatsit). Not sure why.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 01 July 2020, 17:14:52
Post by: rgleas on Thu, 02 July 2020, 12:40:17
Cheers.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 03 July 2020, 00:45:07
General note for those not following the forums as closely: feel free to check the monthly blog updates which summarize all of the month's updates.
The major update is that I've QC'd and shipped out 344 keyboards so far and am continuing to send out shipments without printed keys to those who want early delivery, with printed items to ship later.
The only ones that are not going out are those who prefer delivery all at once (e.g. if they do not have extra Model M / Model F / Unicomp keyboards to borrow keys from) and those whose keyboards are in the second of two container shipments of the early bird round (mostly the remaining keyboards with installed, unprinted keys as well as the compact case keyboards).
The last step is the dye sublimation which they are working on setting up and still needs more time to complete.
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 03 July 2020, 14:27:54
I hope you find it interesting and enjoy:
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 03 July 2020, 16:14:25
For those not aware, a solenoid contains a metal cylinder that vibrates the keyboard and/or makes a noise every time you press a key (with exception for certain key programming like the Windows GUI key, etc.) and helps add even more clickiness to a keyboard.
These solenoids are also a great option as an upgrade to IBM's original solenoids too (I'd always save the originals of course for the sake of completeness).
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/xwhatsit-beam-spring-or-model-f-controller/
Why pick this solenoid over other solenoids or over IBM's original solenoids?
The new solenoids are far beefier than IBM's originals, so your solenoid clicking will be even better! It's a custom design that you can only order here. The specifications are 6v, 40 ohm, 0.15A, 0.9W, adjustable throw factory set to 1mm but with a user-adjustable range of about 0.5mm to 5mm (there are 2 screws that can be loosened to adjust the distance of the strike bar). The factory throw setting allows you to start using this solenoid with no modification (still need to follow xwhatsit's solenoid installation guide to avoid damage to equipment).
This solenoid has the dark blue outer covering, black and white twisted wires and 2.54mm connector like the original IBM solenoids, but with a strike bar so it won't exactly resemble the IBM solenoid.
This solenoid is not the one that's available on eBay, though it looks similar and the voltage and resistance specs are the same. Also that other model doesn't have the adjustable throw - you would have to spend time milling the strike bar to modify it for correct usage with the solenoid drivers. If the ebay solenoid's throw distance isn't changed, your solenoid will be very sluggish and won't be able to operate at full typing speed. Also my solenoid is even larger than the eBay solenoid, the 26mm height dimension on eBay is set to be ~29-30mm on my solenoid (the solenoid goes sideways in F62/F77 so it fits) though all the solenoid specs are subject to change. With a larger metal frame, my solenoid should be a little louder than the eBay model and far louder than the original IBM! This is the largest possible solenoid that will fit inside the classic style F62 and F77 cases.
These solenoids will be in the second container ship, expected to leave China soon, so they are not in stock just yet. Will post photos as soon as production finishes.
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 03 July 2020, 16:36:53
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 03 July 2020, 22:12:07
Post by: reavy on Sat, 04 July 2020, 10:14:05
I just placed my order for the Solenoid Driver and the Solenoid. For any noobies out there like me, that is all you will need if you're looking to use for your New Model F Keyboard.Will installation of the solenoid driver and solenoid require any soldering on the new model f controllers?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 04 July 2020, 13:54:05
reavy there is no soldering required. Just plug the connectors into the header pins.
Vizir for all the beam controllers and solenoids I ordered an amount that was equal to or greater than the minimum order quantity. Once they run out, don't plan on another batch for any of these items. Already I've received a bunch of orders and these will likely go out of stock without warning on the project web site when enough orders have come in.
Post by: Pete on Sun, 05 July 2020, 03:10:22
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 July 2020, 10:27:08
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 05 July 2020, 15:05:14
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 July 2020, 16:19:55
Post by: Pete on Wed, 08 July 2020, 03:40:22
… I also compared a Beam Spring 3278 with the New Model F. This time I did use a proper Mic for the sound recording.
I hope you find it interesting and enjoy:
The new Model F has a really nice sound but that original Beam Spring keyboard is amazing. Maybe a reproduction Beam Spring keyboard can be Ellipse’s next project?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 July 2020, 14:31:54
Shipped keyboards:
360 as of now, with about 40 more separate shipping requests to complete this week and next week.
Ordered items
F77 1194
F62 541
Compact F77 331
Compact F62 183
FirstAidKit 765
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys 471
Extra Case 155
Individual Keys 3248
Addon key set 396
Inner foam 180
Industrial SSK Blue Keys 243
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys 221
Extra Flipper and Spring 4480
xwhatsit Model F USB controller 52
xwhatsit solenoid driver 63
Front-printed keys F1, etc. 116
Extra Barrel 2372
xwhatsit Beam Spring controller 14
xwhatsit controller 23
Solenoid 48
Key Cap Puller 245
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys 581
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair) 197
xwhatsit Displaywriter Beam Spring controller 3
USBCable 16
Extra PCB 5
Extra top inner assembly 3
Extra box + protective custom foam 1
Bumpers 813
Keyboards ordered by year
2020 277
2019 490
2018 504
2017 609
2016 369
Grand Total 2249
Installed Keys
Regular printed 1584
Black unprinted keys 204
Regular unprinted 176
UK 49
Use your own keys 49
Swedish-Finnish 36
German 31
Dark Gray Printed 16
Norwegian 16
French 9
UK English 8
Dark Gray Unprinted 8
Latin American Spanish 6
Arabic 5
Swiss German 5
Blue Unprinted 5
Blue Printed 5
Danish 4
Regular unprinted ISO 4
APL Keys 4
Spanish 3
Russian 3
Italian 3
Dutch 2
Model M keys 2
Brazilian ABNT 2
JIS 2
Hebrew English 2
Korean 2
Swiss French and German 2
Dark Gray (printed) keys, Norwegian 1
Brilliant white printed key set 1
Grand Total 2249
Layout
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout 1
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 992
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and non-HHKB Split Right Shift 1
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace 5
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift 1
DVORAK with HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 1
HHKB split right shift only and split backspace, everything else ANSI Enter 1
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter 15
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter, HHKB style Ctrl and Caps Lock 2
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter, short left shift 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace 317
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace and short space bar 1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 2
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace 515
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift 4
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys 1
ISO Enter (vertical enter and 2U Left Shift) 2
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) 143
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift 15
ISO Enter (Vertical Enter And Split Left Shift) And HHKB-Style Split Right Shift, Split Backspace 9
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and non-HHKB Split Right Shift 2
Scumyc ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) 8
Split Enter (1.25U enter and split Left Shift) and non-HHKB Split Right Shift 1
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter, short space bar 1
Standard (ANSI or ISO) 205
HHKB style split right shift and split backspace 1
HHKB style split right shift, everything else ANSI 1
Grand Total 2249
Bumpers
2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 other pictured bumpers (please specify in the notes) 202
4 Cork 190
2 Large rubber bumpers (left of photo) with screw and nut plus 2 dome (middle of photo) 187
4 square 91
4 dome (middle of photo) 50
2 dome (middle of photo) + 2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 39
2 dome + 2 square 27
2 square (top right)+2 small cylindrical (bottom right) 26
2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 cylindrical bumpers 1
Grand Total 813
Right Side Block
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys 840
0-9 and cursor keys 583
Blank 102
Grand Total 1525
Sales Ranking by Shipping Territory
1 United States
2 United Kingdom
3 Canada
4 Germany
5 Australia
6 Sweden
7 Norway
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Switzerland
11 Finland
12 France
13 Hong Kong
14 Malaysia
15 Singapore
16 New Zealand
17 Poland
18 Korea, Republic of
19 China
20 Austria
21 Czech Republic
22 Spain
23 Italy
24 Denmark
25 Thailand
26 Russia
27 Brazil
28 Ireland
29 Belgium
30 Romania
31 Taiwan
32 Luxembourg
33 Mexico
34 Israel
35 Argentina
36 Estonia
37 Philippines
38 Vietnam
39 Croatia
40 Hungary
41 Oman
42 Serbia
43 Peru
44 India
45 Turkey
46 Chile
47 Saudi Arabia
48 South Africa
49 Iceland
50 Slovenia
51 Bulgaria
52 Guam
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 08 July 2020, 14:41:12
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 July 2020, 14:58:36
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys
Printed (Industrial SSK Blue) 102
Printed (Dark Gray) 99
Printed (Pearl/Pebble) 84
Blank (Black) 37
Blank (Pearl/Pebble) 32
Blank (Industrial SSK Blue) 29
Blank (Dark Gray) 21
Printed (Pearl/Pebble Color) 35
Blank Unprinted (Black Color) 11
Blank (Pearl/Pebble Color) 7
Printed (Dark Gray) 4
Printed (Blue Color) 3
Russian 1
Dark Gray (printed) keys 1
Blank (Industrial SSK Blue) 1
Printed 1
Blank Unprinted (Blue Color) 1
Printed (Industrial SSK Blue Color) 1
Printed (Dark Gray Color) 1
Grand Total 471
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 08 July 2020, 15:12:28
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 July 2020, 15:59:57
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Post by: architones on Wed, 08 July 2020, 18:03:58
Below is the latest pivot table report update of items ordered and configurations chosen. A lot of controllers, solenoid drivers, and solenoids have been ordered in recent weeks!
Sales Ranking by Shipping Territory
52 Guam
Wow, I wonder if I'm the only person on Guam that bought this board!
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 09 July 2020, 15:24:47
Post by: Pete on Thu, 09 July 2020, 18:28:50
Wow, I wonder if I'm the only person on Guam that bought this board!I’m glad to see I’m not the only Australian to order one.
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 09 July 2020, 18:48:18
Wow, I wonder if I'm the only person on Guam that bought this board!I’m glad to see I’m not the only Australian to order one.
You're rank 5 out of 52 nations. I imagine you're far from the only one. I'm sure a major factor down there is having something with which to quickly and humanely dispatch attacking wildlife while at your computer.
I'm actually kind of surprised to see so many relatively small European countries so high in the list myself.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 July 2020, 18:57:05
http://ryan.abel.space/blog/model-f-keyboard-review
Post by: andy74 on Fri, 10 July 2020, 02:51:06
I wanted to share a recent, thorough blog review of a new Model F F77 Keyboard with great photos:
http://ryan.abel.space/blog/model-f-keyboard-review
Thanks for the post!I'm really looking forward to receiving mine.
Post by: bun on Fri, 10 July 2020, 06:33:47
My F62 finally arrived today, so I thought i'd give my first impressions for those who might still be waiting on theirs to be delivered.
I'll also report some frustrations in hopes that those who have theirs might already be able to help :)
First impressions:
- Heavy! Super heavy and very well built. You could kill a man with this thing. I can find no faults at all with the physical construction. Extremely well made - Excellent job Ellipse.
- Typing feel is amazing. The keys actuate well and for reasonably fast typers like myself it doesn't slow you down at all
- Looks amazing - I have the black F62 HHKB model with blank keys. Looks even better in person than in photos.
- Layout works well. It's been a while since i've used an HHKB layout so it's going to take some practice to get used to it again
- Extremely noisy. No complaints here :)
Frustrations
- Mine spent forever in shipping and it must have gotten thrown around a bit because a fair few of my keys weren't working well when I first fired it up. I spent quite a few hours reseating springs and ended up damaging a couple. I had to take it apart and reseat some flippers (paddles?) which fixed some but meant that others were misaligned somehow and meant that I needed to repeat the process. Not a great out of box experience (but understandably not a quality fault with the F62's engineering) - Just frustrating is all
- Some keys register multiple presses and my backspace sometimes misses presses. This is really annoying me, the backspace especially. Still really love the thing though.
All in all a great keyboard. Love it but need to sort out the issues with the extra/missed keypresses. Sometimes I get multiple spaces, other times multiple f's. I've tried reseating the springs, replacing the springs, replacing with paddles/flippers from the first aid kit - I just don't know what to do about it so it's really frustrating me :'(
Small update - After reseating the backspace spring for the umpteenth time it almost never misses now (except for when I don't strike the key properly so perhaps I need to slow down and be more purposeful with my keypresses??!?) and I haven't seen any duplicate presses for a while either. Progress :thumb:
Is there such a thing as a "bedding in" period for buckling spring keyboard? It seems to be getting a bit better after a few hours of bashing away on it. I've only used topre/cherry keyboards up until now so i'm not sure what to expect of it quite yet.
Really loving this board so far - even with my initial frustrations ;D
Here's a photo of it in it's new home.
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 10 July 2020, 10:15:55
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 10 July 2020, 10:47:21
So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 10 July 2020, 11:43:09
Have you checked out the beta QMK firmware over on the Deskthority project thread (feel free to post there and you should receive a link to test the QMK Model F firmware). There are a number of reports saying QMK completely resolved the xwhatsit firmware issues.
Maybe your threshold needs to be raised a few values in the xwhatsit GUI?
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 10 July 2020, 12:15:59
So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in. :PSo would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 10 July 2020, 12:17:50
Rgr. I have wondered about that solenoid before and did not get any conclusive answer. I ended up scavenging one from another IBM model f (blue switch).So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in.So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Twsts on Fri, 10 July 2020, 16:54:12
Rgr. I have wondered about that solenoid before and did not get any conclusive answer. I ended up scavenging one from another IBM model f (blue switch).So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in.So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
That solenoid will work fine, while not giving the greater tactile feedback of the larger one it will give a good solenoid click.
I actually tried it on my F62. It clamps right under the cable clip, with no further modifications needed.
(https://i.imgur.com/xAOEX7m.jpg)
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 10 July 2020, 21:28:56
Rgr. I have wondered about that solenoid before and did not get any conclusive answer. I ended up scavenging one from another IBM model f (blue switch).So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in.So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
That solenoid will work fine, while not giving the greater tactile feedback of the larger one it will give a good solenoid click.
I actually tried it on my F62. It clamps right under the cable clip, with no further modifications needed.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/xAOEX7m.jpg)
Very nice thanks for sharing!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 July 2020, 14:48:05
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 July 2020, 16:39:05
I'd say that outside the original off-white/beige case color, red would probably be the one that I like most.
Here are some photos of recent new variations.
The blue gray / silver gray cases came out great and look even better in person than in these photos. This is a great color and I had extras made beyond what was ordered, in case anyone wanted to upgrade or order a keyboard or case in this color.
Also the Regular Gray Ultra Compact cases look great. The finish is excellent.
Printed key caps in the photos are Unicomp caps and SSK type key caps (as someone over on DT just mentioned is on their new Model F).
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Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 12 July 2020, 17:33:30
Here are two views of the finished product:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
After waiting for 4 years, I was eager to get started, so I forged ahead without first reading the Xwhatsit manual. This is a mistake -- you will ultimately save time by reading the manual. It might seem a bit daunting at first glance, but if you follow it step-by-step, the setup procedure becomes quite straightforward.
After installing all the keys and verifying that they all clicked properly, my first (premature) typing test revealed that all the keys were registering except the 6-key in the top (number) row. Naturally, I panicked, thinking I was going to have to do something drastic, such as taking the keyboard completely apart and repositioning the 6-key flipper. Not so! All that was required was reading the manual and discovering that I needed to systematically adjust the voltage threshold using the excellent Xwhatsit ibm-capsense software.
Again using the ibm-capsense software, I verified that my keyboard was programmed almost the way I wanted it -- a basic HHKB layout with a single function layer. I made a few minor changes, such as swapping the positions of the Command/Win keys with the Option/Alt keys and making CapsLock = Fn+Tab. Now that I have used the Xwhatsit software, I think I like it better than TMK/QMK or the Atmel FLIP program.
Mechanically, I changed the sound of the spacebar to my liking. As shipped, the spacebar had some rattle and the bottoming-out sound was a bit harsh. I applied some synthetic silicone grease to the stabilizer clips, inserted self-adhesive foam-rubber strips to the inside of the spacebar, and applied Poron Thin-Stik ultra-thin self-adhesive foam to the top plate where the stabilizer wire hits when the spacebar is pressed down. Now the spacebar makes a satisfying "thunk" and does not rattle.
I also like my keyboards angled, with the rear higher than the front. Therefore, rather than using the flat cork pads that ship with the F62, I put two small hemispherical bumpers near the front and two cone-shaped bumpers toward the rear.
Thus far, I have only three minor issues with my F62 setup, and two of these are problems with the Unicomp keys rather than the F62 per se. The Unicomp keys have some imperfections: first, the junction of the stem with the top of the key is visible from the top; second, the Return key binds a bit when struck on its left side. Nevertheless, I am grateful for Unicomp -- their keys and other parts have enabled me to complete projects with IBM keyboards that would have remained unfinished without them.
Regarding the F62 itself, this is just a matter of personal preference -- I would prefer to have a detachable cable -- I will consider installing a flush-mount connector as a future project.
The F62 experience is vastly different from that of my previous daily driver, a lubed and silenced HHKB, but I enjoy each of these keyboards for their own particular strengths. Although I still prefer the sound and feel of my first mechanical keyboard project -- an IBM XT with Soarer's converter -- to the sound and feel of my new F62, The layout, form factor, and size of the F62 is much more to my liking. Consequently, I anticipate using my F62 frequently. Fortunately, I have an isolated private office so that there is no one to complain about the noise, and I can switch to my HHKB when I am doing conference calls.
Regarding the overall appearance of my F62, I am extremely satisfied, especially with the red color of the case. I have ordered another F62 in black; now I wish I had opted for red for both of them. One of the F62s will go to my work office -- if the COVID-19 restrictions are ever lifted.
Finally, I would like to express my gratitude and congratulations to @Ellipse for the incredible job he has done with this monumental keyboard project and to @Xwhatsit for his amazing work with the controllers and software.
Post by: TopreMoon on Sun, 12 July 2020, 17:42:39
Post by: macclack on Sun, 12 July 2020, 22:34:18
Thanks for posting this. Please post a typing video of this--I'd like to hear the spacebar if possible.
Mechanically, I changed the sound of the spacebar to my liking. As shipped, the spacebar had some rattle and the bottoming-out sound was a bit harsh. I applied some synthetic silicone grease to the stabilizer clips, inserted self-adhesive foam-rubber strips to the inside of the spacebar, and applied Poron Thin-Stik ultra-thin self-adhesive foam to the top plate where the stabilizer wire hits when the spacebar is pressed down. Now the spacebar makes a satisfying "thunk" and does not rattle.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 July 2020, 14:58:07
Submitted to me by a non-forum member. I believe there are multiple options for doing the trackpoint mod as described here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/any-plans-for-trackpoint-version/
"I used the Unicomp M13 trackpoint but the others I mentioned will also work. I used the unicomp controller and have two USB cables running out the back. If the current controller has any extra inputs that handle PS2 or some unused GPIO pins then it could be integrated into the existing controller with the stand alone SK8702 trackpoint controller. I plan on going bluetooth in which case I can join the two controllers through a hub internally and not have to worry about two controllers and cables. I used the Unicomp GHB keys with the cutout to clear the trackpoint."
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Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 13 July 2020, 15:36:25
First New Model F trackpoint mod!
That's ridiculous ... and awesome.
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Mon, 13 July 2020, 15:47:50
Hypersphere posted a thorough review over on DT with nice photos and helpful advice.
I'd say that outside the original off-white/beige case color, red would probably be the one that I like most.
Here are some photos of recent new variations.
The blue gray / silver gray cases came out great and look even better in person than in these photos. This is a great color and I had extras made beyond what was ordered, in case anyone wanted to upgrade or order a keyboard or case in this color.
Also the Regular Gray Ultra Compact cases look great. The finish is excellent.
Printed key caps in the photos are Unicomp caps and SSK type key caps (as someone over on DT just mentioned is on their new Model F).
(Attachment Link)
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silver gray ftw!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 July 2020, 19:24:22
Yes you can purchase extra screws from me – please email me for current pricing and to confirm availability. All classic case screws are Pan Head screws. You can also purchase them locally or online for a low cost, probably lower than my cost.
However I recommend ordering from me if you want the Torx T8 screws I'm using for the compact cases (I also sell Phillips head compact case screws). They are of excellent quality and are custom made just for this project from a brand new mold. (the factory is replacing the lower quality phillips head screws on all the ultra compact cases that have not yet shipped to me)
Always compress the compact case right next to the screw with firm pressure (the same firm pressure to the screw with the screwdriver), go slowly, and use the correct bit (Phillips #1 PH1 for compact case screws and PH2 for classic style case screws and controller ground screws). Use only manual hand screwdrivers. Do not overtighten or the screw will strip. The small screws are far more likely to strip if the screwdriver slips.
6/32 x 3/16 in – controller and P clip screws (total 3)
6/32 x 1/2 in – classic style zinc case 4 screws
M2.5 x 4mm – compact case 4 screws to attach bottom inner assembly to case
M2.5 x 20mm – compact case 12 screws
Post by: Hypersphere on Tue, 14 July 2020, 13:11:39
Thanks for posting this. Please post a typing video of this--I'd like to hear the spacebar if possible.
Mechanically, I changed the sound of the spacebar to my liking. As shipped, the spacebar had some rattle and the bottoming-out sound was a bit harsh. I applied some synthetic silicone grease to the stabilizer clips, inserted self-adhesive foam-rubber strips to the inside of the spacebar, and applied Poron Thin-Stik ultra-thin self-adhesive foam to the top plate where the stabilizer wire hits when the spacebar is pressed down. Now the spacebar makes a satisfying "thunk" and does not rattle.
Things are quite busy at work, but I will try to make a typing recording and post it here when I can find a spare moment. Thanks for the suggestion.
Post by: Hypersphere on Tue, 14 July 2020, 13:17:03
Ah, the red looks awesome! Debating really hard on whether I need a 'spare' case D:Thanks. Red and burgundy red have become my favorite colors for keyboard cases.
There's nothing to debate -- given that you are here on Geekhack, well, of course, you "need" a spare case!
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 15 July 2020, 07:11:51
As I mentioned previously, I prefer the sound and feel of the XT. However, I find the F62 more usable because of its smaller footprint and standard layout in the main typing area. On the other hand, a usability feature that I installed on my XT is a flush-mount USB connector, making it easier to swap keyboards on my desk setup. I may eventually do the same for my F62.
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 15 July 2020, 11:00:55
Some of the keys on my F62 -- especially the Enter/Return key -- make a harsh metallic sound when bottoming out. I don't think the skirt of the key touches the top plate of the keyboard when pressed down all the way, so I presume the noise comes from the key striking the top of the barrel. How might this sound be attenuated? I have seen mention of using washers/O-rings from an IBM/Lexmark Wheelwriter, but I have not seen any details on such a mod, and I have not seen any of these washers for sale (apart from purchasing a complete Wheelwriter). Any thoughts on this?
Update: It appears that the Wheelwriters that had O-rings installed put them around the outside of the barrels, resting on the top of the barrel plate, per the following post:
https://trello.com/c/uYSx2zmT/7-ibm-wheelwriter-5-o-rings
Post by: macclack on Wed, 15 July 2020, 12:31:41
@macclack: Per your request, I have cobbled together a video with some typing sounds of my new F62 along with an IBM-XT for comparison.
As I mentioned previously, I prefer the sound and feel of the XT. However, I find the F62 more usable because of its smaller footprint and standard layout in the main typing area. On the other hand, a usability feature that I installed on my XT is a flush-mount USB connector, making it easier to swap keyboards on my desk setup. I may eventually do the same for my F62.
Thanks for posting this :thumb:
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 15 July 2020, 17:23:43
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 16 July 2020, 09:59:01
I have just finished doing a floss mod on my new F62 keyboard. Whereas this was very easy on my IBM-XT, the F62 required multiple tries to get the flossed spring to buckle after putting the key back on. I used the same Oral-B Superfloss on both boards, and I used the same procedure. The problem with flossing the F62 was most pronounced near the center of the keyboard. So, for example, it took MANY tries to get the following keys to buckle properly: 6, u, h, n. In fact, I was not able to get the "n" key to buckle after countless trys. I tried changing the floss and trimming the floss to different lengths, all to no avail. Consequently, I removed the floss from the n-key and then it buckled, but of course now it pings. Could this difficulty have something to do with unequal tension between the backplate and barrel plate at different points along the rows? Has anyone else experienced difficulty with a floss mod on their new F62 and/or F77 keyboards?
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 17 July 2020, 10:22:19
I've seen, I believe Twisty using some plywood for his solenoid to thump against, and I was curious if having something to thump against is necessary? Is having it thump against the case in a New Model F not ideal? I've also seen some folks have the solenoid thumping against a keycap. If anyone has done the mod, i'd love to see some pictures of what it looks like inside the case!
Thank you and Cheers!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 July 2020, 12:12:13
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 17 July 2020, 12:20:02
rgleas, upon actuation of a key, the solenoid bar goes inwards (inside the solenoid coil) and the metal clip on the solenoid cylindrical bar clicks against the solenoid itself. Upon release the solenoid has an o ring or damper ring so that there is not a second click upon return of the solenoid bar. The mod with the wood, I believe, is to have the solenoid make contact with the wood which contacts the case - all of this is on the "solenoid return" part. So with this mod, there would be a click upon actuation, and a potentially larger click upon return of the solenoid into its original position.
Thank you! That was helpful.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 July 2020, 12:41:02
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 17 July 2020, 15:13:41
We passed the 400 keyboards milestone this week! 407 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far.
Congratulations! Apart from one of the F77 that had a larger than usual gap between the case, they have all been perfect (the one with the larger gap was an easy fix). Compared to my 35+ year old other IBM Model -F keyboards this was a spectacular experience. I used three of them during the last weeks with QMK as firmware and two with 0.9.2 xwhatsit. My primary one (F77), which I use about 8 hours a day is ... can I say ... perfect? I have to admit that during calls and video conferences, I have to put myself on mute when typing, but that is what I am doing since years to not annoy others :)
Post by: reavy on Fri, 17 July 2020, 15:47:35
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 17 July 2020, 17:00:51
1. Floss mod. Finally got the stubborn "n" key to buckle by trimming the floss so that it was about 1 mm shorter than the spring.
2. Spurious keypresses. Flashed and remapped with QMK. The spurious keypresses seem to have disappeared.
3. O-ring mod. I found the same size of O-rings that have been found in some versions of the IBM Wheelwriter. The dimensions are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness. They slip easily over the barrels in the new F62 or F77. I left them resting on the "nubs" on each of the barrels rather than stretching them to fit flat against the top of the barrel plate. I applied them only to the barrels of the modifers and the spacebar. I decided, at least for now, not to put O-rings on the alphanumeric keys. The result -- attenuation of the metallic bottoming-out sound.
Tnanks to the floss mod, the "ping" is gone, and the O-ring treatment has reduced the bottoming-out noise. A good thing about these mods is that they are easily and completely reversible if you do not like the effects.
It also appears that QMK might be a better and easier way than ibm-capsense to autocalibrate F62/77 boards and map the keys, although we all owe a debt of gratitude to Xwhatsit for his pioneering work on Model-F and Beam Spring controllers and firmware that made it possible for the rest of us to use these great keyboards with contemporary computers.
Post by: TopreMoon on Sat, 18 July 2020, 16:25:31
How do you compare your experience with your modded F62 to your HHKB?
I mainly ask because while I enjoy typing on the F62 (unmodded), whenever I switch back to my Type-S HHKB, I'm reminded of how the HHKB is so much more gentle and quiet comparatively.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 18 July 2020, 19:11:37
@reavy:
I agree that any Model-F board would be too loud to use during a teleconference. However, with quiet keyboards such as a silenced HHKB, it is not only the quietness of the board that matters, it is also the isolation of the microphone from the desk. My keyboard sits on a large rubberized mat, which absorbs some of the sound. For a microphone, I use either a headset mic or a microphone that is suspended from a flexible arm clamped to a bookshelf and mounted in a radial isolator. During calls, I take notes using my silenced HHKB. I haven't tested background noise with software, but I have asked conference participants if they can hear my typing sounds, and they say that they cannot.
@TopreMoon: Comparing my modded F62 to my lubed and silenced HHKB Pro 2 is a classic case of comparing, say, basketballs to bananas. I enjoy both keyboards, but for different reasons. They each provide a distinctive typing experience, but the nature of the experience is quite different. I suppose the similarities include tactility and the satisfaction of using machines built from quality components. The obvious difference between the two boards is the sound -- they differ in loudness, pitch, and timbre.
Post by: rgleas on Tue, 21 July 2020, 14:34:57
Cheers!
Post by: rgleas on Wed, 22 July 2020, 13:14:17
Post by: minnus on Wed, 22 July 2020, 21:04:30
@TopreMoon: Comparing my modded F62 to my lubed and silenced HHKB Pro 2 is a classic case of comparing, say, basketballs to bananas. I enjoy both keyboards, but for different reasons. They each provide a distinctive typing experience, but the nature of the experience is quite different. I suppose the similarities include tactility and the satisfaction of using machines built from quality components. The obvious difference between the two boards is the sound -- they differ in loudness, pitch, and timbre.
With the removal of the harsh ping with the floss mod, and a potentially softer actuation with the o-rings, it would seem to me that it should start resembling Topre more than a traditional buckling springs experience - maybe not though! If I'm brave enough, maybe I'll do the mods myself one day and compare.
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:56:43
The tactility of the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S feels less sharp than that of the F62, and the sound is much different from that of the F62. It is certainly much, much quieter. Moreover, the nature of the sound is quite different -- a muted "thock" compared to a sharp click.
I very much like both of these keyboards for different reasons. For the moment, the F62 has become my daily driver except for teleconferences, when I switch over to my HHKB.
Post by: rgleas on Thu, 23 July 2020, 20:14:27
@minnus: Even with the floss mod on all of the keys and the O-rings on the modifiers and spacebar, the F62 still has the sharp, crisp tactility accompanied by the staccato click of the Model-F switches. This is so at least on the alpha and number keys. The sound and feel of the modifiers and spacebar on the F62 is indeed softened to some degree by the O-rings.
The tactility of the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S feels less sharp than that of the F62, and the sound is much different from that of the F62. It is certainly much, much quieter. Moreover, the nature of the sound is quite different -- a muted "thock" compared to a sharp click.
I very much like both of these keyboards for different reasons. For the moment, the F62 has become my daily driver except for teleconferences, when I switch over to my HHKB.
Interesting, so you enjoy typing on the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S? I generally use my Dell AT101W with Black Alps when I need to be quiet lol, but I was debating on getting an HHKB for quiet times after enjoying the 60% setup so much.
So I jumped onto the New Model F hype train without any second thoughts, since I was daily driving a Unicomp Model M already and loved the feel. But do topre really feel nice? Is it easy for you to switch between the F62 and HHKB, with the 4 less keys?
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:36:19
I don't use the HHKB merely because it is quiet -- I like the 60% form factor, layout, feel, appearance, and quality components as well. A great deal of thought went into the design of the HHKB. It was developed by Prof. Wada, a computer scientist at the University of Tokyo, after years of research. The first-generation was introduced in 1996 followed by the Pro in 2003, the Pro 2 in 2006, and the Pro Classic and Pro Hybrid in 2020.
In particular, I like the HHKB layout -- in fact, I quickly became addicted to it. My keyboard collection is extensive, but all the keyboards that I have in my rotation have been remapped to a layout as close as possible to that of the HHKB.
Before discovering the HHKB, I used Model M boards at home and work. When I rediscoved Model F keyboards, I liked the Model F switches so much, I thought it would be great if there were a 60% Model F keyboard in the HHKB layout. Then, along came Ellipse and his F62/F77 project. It was a no-brainer for me to order these for both my home and work offices.
My F62 has the split backspace and split right shift of the HHKB. It has two additional keys on the bottom row, but otherwise the F62 and HHKB boards have the same layout, so it is very easy to go back and forth between the two keyboards.
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:46:44
@rgleas: Yes, I enjoy typing on the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S. Before acquiring this latest update in the HHKB line, I used a HHKB Pro 2 that I lubed and silenced myself with my own silencing rings. I used that HHKB Pro 2 almost exclusively for about 5 years in my home office, and I have two others that I still use on two of my computers at work.
I don't use the HHKB merely because it is quiet -- I like the 60% form factor, layout, feel, appearance, and quality components as well. A great deal of thought went into the design of the HHKB. It was developed by Prof. Wada, a computer scientist at the University of Tokyo, after years of research. The first-generation was introduced in 1996 followed by the Pro in 2003, the Pro 2 in 2006, and the Pro Classic and Pro Hybrid in 2020.
In particular, I like the HHKB layout -- in fact, I quickly became addicted to it. My keyboard collection is extensive, but all the keyboards that I have in my rotation have been remapped to a layout as close as possible to that of the HHKB.
Before discovering the HHKB, I used Model M boards at home and work. When I rediscoved Model F keyboards, I liked the Model F switches so much, I thought it would be great if there were a 60% Model F keyboard in the HHKB layout. Then, along came Ellipse and his F62/F77 project. It was a no-brainer for me to order these for both my home and work offices.
My F62 has the split backspace and split right shift of the HHKB. It has two additional keys on the bottom row, but otherwise the F62 and HHKB boards have the same layout, so it is very easy to go back and forth between the two keyboards.
Awesome, very helpful. Did you get classic F62's or the space saving ones? I'll probably pick up a type-s once I find one at a decent price. When I'm doing type racer or something like that later at night on my Model F's it can be heard from pretty much every room in my house lol.
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:56:26
Update on my F62:
1. Floss mod. Finally got the stubborn "n" key to buckle by trimming the floss so that it was about 1 mm shorter than the spring.
2. Spurious keypresses. Flashed and remapped with QMK. The spurious keypresses seem to have disappeared.
3. O-ring mod. I found the same size of O-rings that have been found in some versions of the IBM Wheelwriter. The dimensions are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness. They slip easily over the barrels in the new F62 or F77. I left them resting on the "nubs" on each of the barrels rather than stretching them to fit flat against the top of the barrel plate. I applied them only to the barrels of the modifers and the spacebar. I decided, at least for now, not to put O-rings on the alphanumeric keys. The result -- attenuation of the metallic bottoming-out sound.
Tnanks to the floss mod, the "ping" is gone, and the O-ring treatment has reduced the bottoming-out noise. A good thing about these mods is that they are easily and completely reversible if you do not like the effects.
It also appears that QMK might be a better and easier way than ibm-capsense to autocalibrate F62/77 boards and map the keys, although we all owe a debt of gratitude to Xwhatsit for his pioneering work on Model-F and Beam Spring controllers and firmware that made it possible for the rest of us to use these great keyboards with contemporary computers.
I can't find the folder on the qmk repo to flash my F62 -- is there a repo somewhere else? It seems it's still in beta and hasn't been PR'd to the main repo
Do you also follow a particular guide for floss-modding in a systematic manner? I'll probably try floss-modding mine. (edit: nvm, just reading skcheng's guide)
edit 2: ordered me some o-rings and superfloss :)
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:37:48
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:40:52
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Thanks for this detailed explanation on floss mod! Can't wait for the Superfloss to arrive so that I can try this.
I'll shoot pandrew/tentator a message over on DT. :thumb:
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 24 July 2020, 09:13:21
@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.
Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 24 July 2020, 13:32:11
Topre, Model F buckling spring, and mx black switches are so different, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between actuation forces. Shown below are some force-displacement curves for each of these switch types.@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.
Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
I like to bottom-out my keystrokes, and I find mx black switches fatiguing because the linear force keeps increasing beyond the actuation point. Topre switches have a gentle increase and a decline in force beyond the actuation point. Model F switches have a sharp drop-off in force at the actuation point corresponding to the catastrophic collapse (buckling) of the spring. Topre switches are actually similar to buckling springs in a way, because the domes undergo a catastrophic collapse to provide the tactile response.
Regarding Topre (and Topre in the HHKB Pro 2 specifically), many people tend to prefer the stock 45g domes. You can get 55g by transplanting domes from 55g Topre keyboards, such as 55g Realforce (RF) boards. I have done this in one of my HHKB Pro 2 boards. At first, I enjoyed the exaggerated tactility, but I found that for prolonged typing sessions, 55g domes became a bit tiring. I really think that 45g is the sweet spot for both HHKB Pro 2 boards and Realforce boards.
Another factor to consider is that HHKB switches are case-mounted in the plastic case, whereas RF Topre switches are plate-mounted in a steel plate. This makes typing on the RF a bit more stressful to the fingers because of the unyielding steel plate. Although the RF feels more solid and refined than the HHKB (to me at least), I prefer typing on the HHKB -- it is livelier and less fatiguing.
Thus far, I am having no problems adjusting when I switch between my HHKB and F62 boards. I think it would be much more difficult to switch between an mx black board and either Topre or Model F.
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 24 July 2020, 14:55:30
Topre, Model F buckling spring, and mx black switches are so different, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between actuation forces. Shown below are some force-displacement curves for each of these switch types.@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.
Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I like to bottom-out my keystrokes, and I find mx black switches fatiguing because the linear force keeps increasing beyond the actuation point. Topre switches have a gentle increase and a decline in force beyond the actuation point. Model F switches have a sharp drop-off in force at the actuation point corresponding to the catastrophic collapse (buckling) of the spring. Topre switches are actually similar to buckling springs in a way, because the domes undergo a catastrophic collapse to provide the tactile response.
Regarding Topre (and Topre in the HHKB Pro 2 specifically), many people tend to prefer the stock 45g domes. You can get 55g by transplanting domes from 55g Topre keyboards, such as 55g Realforce (RF) boards. I have done this in one of my HHKB Pro 2 boards. At first, I enjoyed the exaggerated tactility, but I found that for prolonged typing sessions, 55g domes became a bit tiring. I really think that 45g is the sweet spot for both HHKB Pro 2 boards and Realforce boards.
Another factor to consider is that HHKB switches are case-mounted in the plastic case, whereas RF Topre switches are plate-mounted in a steel plate. This makes typing on the RF a bit more stressful to the fingers because of the unyielding steel plate. Although the RF feels more solid and refined than the HHKB (to me at least), I prefer typing on the HHKB -- it is livelier and less fatiguing.
Thus far, I am having no problems adjusting when I switch between my HHKB and F62 boards. I think it would be much more difficult to switch between an mx black board and either Topre or Model F.
Not mx black, I use Alps SKCM Black switches. Good stuff though, I'll probably try out the stock 45g switches and see if I like it. Thanks!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 24 July 2020, 16:05:32
Here's a video of the solenoids in action! They sound hefty even before they are attached to a metal case which should add further impact!
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 24 July 2020, 16:09:23
"Not mx black, I use Alps SKCM Black switches. Good stuff though, I'll probably try out the stock 45g switches and see if I like it. Thanks!"
Sorry about mis-reading your post. Black Alps are, in the opinion of many, the worst Alps switch ever! Here is a composite of force-displacement curves for various Alps switches, including black:
[attachimg=1]
Black Alps tend to feel rough compared to other Alps switches (provided all of them are in good to excellent condition).
Post by: rgleas on Fri, 24 July 2020, 22:35:51
The custom made solenoids are ready!
Here's a video of the solenoids in action! They sound hefty even before they are attached to a metal case which should add further impact!
Awesome, wow are those big! Have you tested it out in a New Model F yet? I'm wondering if you'll need earplugs haha.
Post by: rgleas on Sat, 25 July 2020, 00:32:51
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 26 July 2020, 15:12:10
For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 26 July 2020, 21:51:55
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:
For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806
Thank you for sharing this guide Hypersphere!
Post by: Vizir on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:37:12
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:Marked for reference. Thanks hypersphere!
For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:10:59
The factory continues to work on dye sublimation and additional QC work on the second container shipment of the early bird round. They succeeded with the actual sublimation this month (see nice sublimation quality example below) but need to work on optimizing the jig for proper alignment of all keys. Essentially they make a test jig and then make another one, and do this as many times as needed (it is not inexpensive!). Vertical alignment is consistent within tolerances for 7 of the 8 samples (except "S" - all legends need to be repositioned lower on the key tops of course), but horizontal alignment consistency in these samples is not yet acceptable. I was hoping that they would be finished by now but they need more time.
[attachimg=1]
As a note these new Model F legends are not Helvetica but a custom drawn font similar to Helvetica, as worked on by forum member Zed. Zed did an outstanding job matching the old IBM custom drawn fonts. darkcruix's example appears to be a unicomp cap which use the Helvetica font and not the old IBM fonts, to my knowledge.
The new production keys will be using a mix of the XT / F122 one piece key cap legends which are extra bold compared to Model M and Unicomp sets. The samples are a little too thick in the weighting I believe and the final ones should be a bit thinner.
Below are some high resolution scans of my F122 6110344 from 1984: what the new XT type caps should look like, compared to the samples.
As a note my original keys were scanned and narrowed by mistake during the editing, so they should be slightly wider than what is pictured. Also the sizing is not accurate as it was just a quick sizing and stretching of the keys for the above image. These legends are an exact match in person to the size of the originals (but a little too thick in these sample tests), from the tests I have done.
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:37:37
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:25:53
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:56:22
I can imagine that some people will want a GUI and not a web page to configure the keyboard, but in my case - I moved every single xwhatsit controller over (also my two Beam Spring Keyboards).
Post by: OxC0FFEE on Wed, 29 July 2020, 15:49:01
Based on the excellent feedback so far I'm thinking of switching to QMK for keyboard shipments going forward, at least for now. Everyone who has had an xwhatsit firmware issue and moved to QMK seems to have their issue resolved.
This sounds like a great plan. I've had good luck with QMK so far on a preonic, a romac, and a zlant. Looking forward to adding my new F77 to the roster of QMK boards.
Post by: Pete on Thu, 30 July 2020, 03:26:15
Post by: bun on Thu, 30 July 2020, 05:58:06
All my initial issues resulting from springs not behaving due to heavy handed shippers were resolved within a couple of days by myself.
I ended up giving myself a crash course in completely disassembling and reassembling the keyboard and now have an intimate knowledge of the relationship between barrels, springs, flippers, controller, and removing and attaching the retention plate.
I've also had it draw blood thanks to being stabbed by the side connectors on the controller board. I can now immediately eyeball a spring that won't actuate when the key is attached which was something I was struggling with. Protip - If you can't get the spring attached with tweezers then try using a small flat toothpick, such as the one that comes with a swiss army knife, to hold the spring at one end and it'll go on super easy. Just remember to align the spring end correctly as per Ellipse's video. In fact, just watch these several times in a row before you unbox the thing in the first place.
Now that everything is dialled in it's an amazing keyboard. Highly recommended... I just need to purchase some more springs at some point because apparently my dexterity isn't quite what it used to be so i've killed 4 of them.
I'm considering buying another in the new year to keep in storage just in case.
Nice work Ellipse :)
Also, i'm interested in a solenoid purchase but i'm a bit in the dark about how it works and what's involved in connecting it... is there a "Model F Solenoid for dummies" page kicking around?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 30 July 2020, 12:34:27
There were some issues with the key in the 16th column but they were later able to fix it.
Thanks for your update bun. Taking things apart is a great way to learn how they work! Restoring these great old IBM keyboards is how I learned more about them and became more interested in them.
Regarding the solenoid: yes feel free to check out the solenoid product page which I have updated with explanations, photos, videos, and instructions, as well as linking to xwhatsit's solenoid installation manual.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/xwhatsit-beam-spring-or-model-f-controller/
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 30 July 2020, 15:40:17
Would definitely appreciate a second look to make sure I didn't make any mistakes!
Post by: rgleas on Mon, 03 August 2020, 11:15:32
So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol
Cheers.
Post by: raptorzoz on Mon, 03 August 2020, 17:11:16
Post by: pr0ximity on Mon, 03 August 2020, 20:16:52
Do you also follow a particular guide for floss-modding in a systematic manner? I'll probably try floss-modding mine. (edit: nvm, just reading skcheng's guide)
edit 2: ordered me some o-rings and superfloss :)
I personally found Superfloss in my F107 had inconsistent results across the switches. It might have been my technique or the specifics of how my board was put together/how the plates were tensioned, but the length of the piece I cut seemed to have a significant results on neighboring switches, event when the pieces of floss differed only by a couple millimeters.
I did end up trying paracord core which is also referenced in some floss mod threads. I found that much easier to get a consistent result with -- I used individual strands of the core (there were something like 3-5 strands in the core braided together).
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 August 2020, 23:40:39
www.ModelFKeyboards.com/manual
This is an early draft of the product manual. I’d appreciate it if those reading through the manual can offer additional content and/or corrections if something is not clear. You can email me or post additional paragraphs and sentences! Please do not copy and paste content from anywhere else unless you receive permission and attribute the source.
It is aimed at helping owners of both the original keyboards as well as the reproductions.
It will help provide buckling spring owners (everyone from beginners to advanced users) with a central place to learn key re-seating, disassembly, spring replacement, changing the layout, etc.
Post by: euphxenos on Tue, 04 August 2020, 15:09:35
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)
The production run is split into an early bird round and a regular round. We're still in the early bird round. Ellipse received the first shipment of 1,349 keyboards (which represents part of the early bird round, not all of it) on 11/20/19. So far, he's shipped about 400 of those keyboards. Only keyboards with blank keycaps (or no keycaps) have been shipped so far. Dye sub keycaps (ones with legends) are still being worked on, so none of the orders with legends on the keycaps have shipped yet.
How many years of school do you have left? You can probably graduate before this finishes.
Post by: raptorzoz on Wed, 05 August 2020, 06:45:58
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)
The production run is split into an early bird round and a regular round. We're still in the early bird round. Ellipse received the first shipment of 1,349 keyboards (which represents part of the early bird round, not all of it) on 11/20/19. So far, he's shipped about 400 of those keyboards. Only keyboards with blank keycaps (or no keycaps) have been shipped so far. Dye sub keycaps (ones with legends) are still being worked on, so none of the orders with legends on the keycaps have shipped yet.
How many years of school do you have left? You can probably graduate before this finishes.
I'm starting my bachelors, so almost five years, but I will be working during the summers so I'll prolly have the disposable income by next summer, since I will be working then, I'm thankful that it seems like there is at least a couple of years left, thank you for the info :)
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 06 August 2020, 17:30:47
@HypersphereIf that is the US version of "billion" then we are talking about the "Kishsaver" (are we talking about the F62 or the F77?) being 100 x 10^9 better than the HHKB. That's quite a large factor (on par with the number os stars in our galaxy and the number of neurons in the human brain)!
So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol
Cheers.
As for me, my F62 and my HHKB are like my children -- they are very different from each other, but I love them equally.
(I'm typing this on my Type-S HHKB Pro Hybrid; I wanted a change of pace from the F62, and I had a conference call today during which I silently typed notes.)
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 07 August 2020, 10:19:51
@HypersphereIf that is the US version of "billion" then we are talking about the "Kishsaver" (are we talking about the F62 or the F77?) being 100 x 10^9 better than the HHKB. That's quite a large factor (on par with the number os stars in our galaxy and the number of neurons in the human brain)!
So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol
Cheers.
As for me, my F62 and my HHKB are like my children -- they are very different from each other, but I love them equally.
(I'm typing this on my Type-S HHKB Pro Hybrid; I wanted a change of pace from the F62, and I had a conference call today during which I silently typed notes.)
Solution: HHKB F62 Hybrid in which the springs under the domes are buckling springs with flippers. Ha, that actually makes me shudder to think about.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 07 August 2020, 18:34:53
Post by: qowieuryt on Sun, 09 August 2020, 22:48:53
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 13 August 2020, 22:51:03
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 15 August 2020, 15:22:20
Due to the extended lead times for powdercoating in China, the factory is starting preparations for colors for the final round (for both classic and compact cases). Please do post if you would like to order any previously unavailable colors and if there's enough demand (not sure of the minimum order quantity just yet) then I will look into offering them. I like Dark Blue as a powdercoated zinc case option, and maybe doing another run of the True Red which came out nice.Are there any new color options for the compact cases?
Post by: Atredl on Sun, 16 August 2020, 01:37:52
Due to the extended lead times for powdercoating in China, the factory is starting preparations for colors for the final round (for both classic and compact cases). Please do post if you would like to order any previously unavailable colors and if there's enough demand (not sure of the minimum order quantity just yet) then I will look into offering them. I like Dark Blue as a powdercoated zinc case option, and maybe doing another run of the True Red which came out nice.I love me some dark blue cases. If I have the money when it’s offered I’d pick one up.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 August 2020, 10:09:38
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 17 August 2020, 13:55:48
Yes I would consider new colors for the compact cases as well.Red?
Post by: Rayndalf on Mon, 17 August 2020, 14:46:10
Post by: euphxenos on Mon, 17 August 2020, 15:57:40
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 18 August 2020, 15:29:14
A first draft is available here:
http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf (http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf)
I am constantly updating the document in the above link, but would like to hear about any comments / corrections / suggestions / criticism...
For now, it is only a fun project for myself, but maybe I do a print in the original design like this:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 August 2020, 17:55:19
A few of the production solenoids arrived and they are excellent!
The solenoids are more than double the weight of the original IBM beam spring solenoid in one of my 3278 keyboards.
The adjustable stroke of the new solenoids works well. At full stroke (5mm) the solenoid is at its heftiest. The solenoid was also well engineered and was able to keep up even at full stroke with my typing of 90 wpm without noticeable queueing of clicks (I prefer the 5mm maximum stroke setting. The factory default setting is 0.5mm which produces a more comparable stroke to the original solenoids). It was set to 25ms extend, 50ms retract in the xwhatsit controller settings.
Currently 90 solenoids and 106 solenoid drivers have been ordered. Both are still available to order!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 August 2020, 19:01:34
They all have tested good, except one which has a bad row (not sure if a component is bad or if some reflowing will fix the issue - any recommendations from SMT soldering experts out there?).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 August 2020, 23:02:05
The factory has done an outstanding job with the latest key samples. They seem to have perfected the various variables to get a good quality result.
On my Meiji stereo microscope it is almost impossible to tell the difference in sublimation quality (sharpness, color quality) from my top reference standard F122 from 1984. I was surprised that there was nearly zero off color bleed / dye migration in the new samples, while even my '84 keys had a tiny amount of this only visible on the scope.
Right now you can tell the difference from the originals due to the poor legend alignment which is far from approved.
I have just approved the sublimation quality of these samples. The next steps are for the factory to work on the alignment which involves more work on the jigs.
Below are some (slightly out of focus) phone photos below - hope to post some high res scans from my Epson V700 soon. It compares the 3 new S D F key samples to original IBM XT keys (installed on the keyboard) and the S key borrowed from my reference F122.
The legends are a bit too thick and will require adjustment to match the originals.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: darkcruix on Wed, 19 August 2020, 03:25:46
After about a month of ownership of the zinc cast models, I also wanted to give a feedback of the powder coating...
I have 5 of them and two additional cases. I used a beige case on a F62 very frequently and also in some rougher areas. Meaning, I was using them outside and was moving around with it having other parts on top of it (e.g. metal touch pad, USB hub, keys). NOTHING chipped off and it looks like on day one.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 August 2020, 11:02:40
Interest check: ultra durable modern style powdercoating for classic zinc and/or compact aluminum cases?
Just to show everyone how far powdercoating has come: here's a video of me taking the end of a screwdriver and trying to damage these samples. Only the faintest of marks was left on these cases.
I am wondering if anyone would be interested in tough coatings for the final round. I am planning on switching at least the compact cases to the tough powdercoating instead of the anodizing. The appearance is great for both of them and the powdercoating is far more durable than anodizing. You'll still be able to get the classic powdercoating no matter what, as a possible option for the classic style cases.
Post by: pr0ximity on Thu, 20 August 2020, 22:10:30
Outstanding darkcruix! Looks great!
A few of the production solenoids arrived and they are excellent!
The solenoids are more than double the weight of the original IBM beam spring solenoid in one of my 3278 keyboards.
The adjustable stroke of the new solenoids works well. At full stroke (5mm) the solenoid is at its heftiest. The solenoid was also well engineered and was able to keep up even at full stroke with my typing of 90 wpm without noticeable queueing of clicks (I prefer the 5mm maximum stroke setting. The factory default setting is 0.5mm which produces a more comparable stroke to the original solenoids). It was set to 25ms extend, 50ms retract in the xwhatsit controller settings.
Currently 90 solenoids and 106 solenoid drivers have been ordered. Both are still available to order!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Oh wow, had no idea you were getting these made. Definitely in for one :thumb:
Post by: ljosa on Fri, 21 August 2020, 05:14:56
Interest check: ultra durable modern style powdercoating for classic zinc and/or compact aluminum cases?
I'll probably get another keyboard with a compact case in the final round, and would prefer the finish to be as durable as possible.
Post by: depletedvespene on Sun, 23 August 2020, 19:21:19
Just wanted to share that I am working on a Technical Manual for the Model F Keyboards. I am trying to mimic the design of the original IBM Manuals.
A first draft is available here:
http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf (http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf)
I am constantly updating the document in the above link, but would like to hear about any comments / corrections / suggestions / criticism...
For now, it is only a fun project for myself, but maybe I do a print in the original design like this:
(Attachment Link)
Hi!
I took a quick look at your draft; I'll give a detailed look later on, but for now there is one observation to be made:
In pages 7-9 you have several diagrams of keyboards with ANSI Enter and ISO Enter keys, with the various options for the splittable keys (left Shift, right Shift and Backspace), but you don't mention the "split Enter" option, a.k.a. TIE Enter, (R2 1.5U, R3 1+1.25U) — the original F62, F77 and F107 keyboards have this physical layout and the repros should support it as well.
This is important because the Model M keyboard do NOT support it (you could fit three keys there, but the R2 1.5U and the R3 1u keys produce the same scan code), but the repros do.
Post by: darkcruix on Mon, 24 August 2020, 05:53:32
...
Hi!
I took a quick look at your draft; I'll give a detailed look later on, but for now there is one observation to be made:
In pages 7-9 you have several diagrams of keyboards with ANSI Enter and ISO Enter keys, with the various options for the splittable keys (left Shift, right Shift and Backspace), but you don't mention the "split Enter" option, a.k.a. TIE Enter, (R2 1.5U, R3 1+1.25U) — the original F62, F77 and F107 keyboards have this physical layout and the repros should support it as well.
This is important because the Model M keyboard do NOT support it (you could fit three keys there, but the R2 1.5U and the R3 1u keys produce the same scan code), but the repros do.
Thanks so much for looking at it and giving this feedback. I will definitely add this also. In Section 1 I will add it as a remark and will add the full info in Section 3, in which I plan to give much more in-depth info.
I updated and corrected some other in-accuracies in the document the last days and will constantly work on it. I plan to finish a first pass of Section 1 within the next 2-3 weeks.
As always - the latest version can always be found here: http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf (http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 August 2020, 12:16:14
Key colors (from left to right: Pebble, Pearl, Black, Industrial SSK Blue, 60% Dark Gray):
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Pete on Thu, 27 August 2020, 00:25:38
Here’s pics of two new cases and my original Model F..
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 August 2020, 11:48:49
They all don't look like the IBM photo you reference.
The beige sample texture in your photo is designed to closely match one particular type of IBM 4704 finish, while the red case texture is similar to other IBM finishes I have seen.
Below is the home page photo on the project web site showing one new and one original case with the headline asking if one can tell which is which.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Pete on Fri, 28 August 2020, 00:50:11
Hi Pete - the paint texture and color on each keyboard does vary, like the IBM originals over the decade of production.
Thanks. I hadn’t thought much at all about powder coating until people started mentioning it so it’s another interesting aspect of the reproduction to hear about. I will now fondly caress my new case to appreciate the texture :)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 August 2020, 12:35:24
Post by: MortyGoldy on Mon, 31 August 2020, 16:06:13
Just found this thread when I checked the updates today, thanks for being so frequent and transparent!
Looking forward to my ISO layout board :)
Post by: darkcruix on Mon, 31 August 2020, 17:23:50
How is QMK working out for those who are trying the beta? I've heard of no lasting issues so far with QMK as it currently stands.
Apart from the insane flexibility within QMK, I can only tell that my issues that I had with my original F122 are gone now. The F122 had the 0.92 xwhatsit firmware (including debounce 11). It worked 99% of the time, but for an unknown reason, it sometimes started to have key chattering. When I changed the voltage threshold, it could be corrected, but then the opposite happened and some keys started to not register precisely anymore. With QMK - all of this is gone. Rock solid.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 August 2020, 19:15:08
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Today I provided the factory with detailed tolerance specifications for the dye sublimation alignment and they are planning on making the first trial of a new jig design. For those who did not see my recent dye sub updates, I was very impressed that the quality of the sublimation itself met or exceeded the quality of the highest percentile of IBM's Model F sublimation work, even comparing them under my stereo microscope.
darkcruix that sounds like a bug with the xwhatsit firmware; I'd recommend exactly what you did (upgrading to QMK beta firmware).
In the past I have recommended switching to the 0.9.2 alternative debounce 11 firmware, from the 0.9.2 original debounce 6 firmware that I installed on the keyboard. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/new-Model-F-layouts-and-updated-firmware.zip
If you were curious and wanted to go back to the xwhatsit side for a day or two (but with the different debounce 11 firmware) I would be interested in knowing whether that fixed the issue you were having.
In the past month or so I switched to QMK for all the new Model F's that are shipping. I continue to be surprised with the xwhatsit issues that have come up in recent months based on xwhatsit's otherwise solid history in my experience dating back to 2014. I do hope that these xwhatsit firmware-specific issues can be resolved so that there will always be multiple firmware options for these keyboards.
Post by: Pete on Mon, 31 August 2020, 19:49:19
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 August 2020, 22:08:38
Compiling/running the xwhatsit capsense utility on Linux:
For Ubuntu:
1. Open the Software & Updates program and select Community-maintained free and open-source software (universe)
2. Extract the precompiled file into a directory
3. Open a terminal and cd into that directory
4. In a terminal run: sudo apt update && sudo apt install gcc gcc-avr avrdude
5. sudo apt install build-essential
6. sudo apt install qtcreator
7. Run sudo ./ibm_capsense_usb_util
How to compile the firmware hex file on Linux (easier to do than on Windows):
For Ubuntu:
Open the Software & Updates program and select Community-maintained free and open-source software (universe)
In a terminal, run: sudo apt update && sudo apt install make gcc gcc-avr avrdude avr-libc build-essential
To get patch files from GitHub, click on the commit and in the URL, append .patch and then save that as a .patch file. pandrew's work to create 0.9.2 firmware can be found here: https://github.com/purdeaandrei/ibm_capsense_usb_mods/commits/master
Move the patch files into the src directory
In the terminal cd into the src directory
To change the files based on a patch file, run patch < filename.patch
Run patch files in order from oldest to newest (start with debounce patch, then patch 1, then patch 2, then patch 3 (the latter three patches from pandrew).
Run make and copy the ibm_capsense_usb.hex file that was created
The default debounce is 11. To create the debounce 6 version, edit the scan.h file and change the line with #define SCAN_DB_THRESH_TOP 11 - change to a 6 (I used to use the debounce 6 version when sending out the Brand New Model F keyboards)
Run make and copy the ibm_capsense_usb.hex file that was created
Post by: Wadawada123 on Tue, 01 September 2020, 01:02:10
Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Post by: Pete on Tue, 01 September 2020, 03:33:54
The IBM capsense util won’t run before the keyboard is plugged in, but when the keyboard is plugged in all sorts of crazy stuff happens, Windows opening and closing, stuff popping up and disappearing, so it’s very difficult to even click on the util to start it so that I can hit Emergency Halt.
BTW: I salvaged my keys from an old Model F and Model M but still had to make some substitutions because a few keys were missing.
Edit: typing on this is a gorgeous tactile experience.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 September 2020, 12:01:05
Post by: mode on Tue, 01 September 2020, 16:37:18
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.
Post by: Pete on Tue, 01 September 2020, 17:16:17
I had to clean up a set of donor model M capsSame here. When I got around to installing donor caps I discovered the old ones were really dirty and needed a clean.
Quote
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.I was surprised by the heft too. This thing is solid!
Post by: Wadawada123 on Tue, 01 September 2020, 17:17:23
My wife’s F77 showed today, will post pics tomorrow once it’s set up. I had to clean up a set of donor model M caps for use until the new ones happen. Hopefully they’ll be dry by morning :)Wait does the keyboard not come with keycaps?
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.
Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Post by: depletedvespene on Tue, 01 September 2020, 20:00:19
My wife’s F77 showed today, will post pics tomorrow once it’s set up. I had to clean up a set of donor model M caps for use until the new ones happen. Hopefully they’ll be dry by morning :)Wait does the keyboard not come with keycaps?
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.
Printed keycaps aren't ready yet; you can ask to get the keyboard right away, with no caps or with blank caps.
Post by: mode on Wed, 02 September 2020, 01:36:31
Surprised by how much I like it, I find her F122 a bit much, but I could get along with one of these quite well. Starting to feel somewhat tempted by a red F77. I really enjoy the red.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 02 September 2020, 15:18:19
Dye sub update: Attached is a high res scan of the latest sublimated keys of excellent quality (same as what was posted a few weeks ago with my phone camera) vs. the exact originals they were based off of.
The new ones as sublimated by the factory's equipment appear to be a touch wider and thicker, so the finalized artwork will be updated to counteract those changes. (I did not account for the higher than expected amount of dye migration/bleed during the sublimation process, as the finalized artwork was an exact match to the originals)
As noted earlier the sublimation quality is excellent, as shown in these scans, looking at the keys in person, and examining them with my stereo microscope. The factory is working on the alignment and the jigs.
It is interesting to note the amount of uneven wear on older, well-used IBM keys compared to brand new ones.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Pete on Wed, 02 September 2020, 20:45:13
... appear to be a touch wider and thicker, so the finalized artwork will be updated to counteract those changes.
A couple of my 35 year old Model F keys:
[attachimg=2]
I noticed some old Model F keys compared to Model M have a slightly thicker look with the numbers.
Model F top, Model M below it.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Pete on Mon, 07 September 2020, 06:05:52
Pete, kindly review the manual as the fix for your specific issue is described over there. I recommend requesting the QMK beta invite over on the Deskthority forum thread and following the instructions to load QMK.
Hi Ellipse, I found an easier way to fix the problem with large numbers of key presses getting generated immediately when I plugged in the F77 (I’m still using xwhatsit).
Just before plugging in the keyboard I position the mouse cursor over the IBM capsense util, then I plug in the keyboard and immediately click on the util before things get too crazy, and then click on Emergency Halt which took a few attempts because the util was losing focus as other windows popped up due to random key spamming.
I then upped the threshold, stored it, and turned off Emergency Halt. From there I could reduce the threshold until I found one that worked for all keys. In my case a threshold of 136 is looking perfect.
This is such an awesome keyboard, I’m really loving it!
Post by: FranciscoGoya on Tue, 08 September 2020, 05:09:23
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 08 September 2020, 11:06:33
Caps lock is not available stepped unless you order a spare key from Unicomp (message me or email me for details).
The first two right side block options are included when ordering keys. The other ones require ordering extra keys, as described here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/new-custom-legend-keycaps/
Post by: FranciscoGoya on Tue, 08 September 2020, 12:28:06
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Sun, 13 September 2020, 12:00:49
Post by: dc_in_sf on Mon, 14 September 2020, 12:54:46
Post by: darkcruix on Mon, 14 September 2020, 14:21:08
Ok QMK support made me pull the trigger on a beige F77, but now wondering if I should go for silver/grey and get the blue keycaps? Any thoughts?
The blue keycaps are just insanely great on industrial gray ...
Post by: dc_in_sf on Mon, 14 September 2020, 15:09:03
Ok QMK support made me pull the trigger on a beige F77, but now wondering if I should go for silver/grey and get the blue keycaps? Any thoughts?
The blue keycaps are just insanely great on industrial gray ...
Yeah maybe getting the IG case instead would give me more flexibility to use either the blue or the regular pearl/pebble combo
I roughed up the SG/Blue combo in MS Paint though and it looks pretty nice, though less keen on that case with pearl/pebble
[attachimg=1]
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 15 September 2020, 03:27:52
In this document, I am also showing the different variants of the Model F keyboards (2-21f). I already have 10 in there, but I am still looking for:
- System/23 Datamaster Monoblock
- System/23 Datamaster "Bezelmaster"
- CS/9000 Keyboard
- Model 200 '4704' - F62 Kishsaver, Original
- Model F Displaywriter
- 'Blue Button' Model F variants
- F127, 4980 for IBM Series/1 minicomputer
Any help would be much appreciated
Post by: OxC0FFEE on Wed, 16 September 2020, 10:20:33
Ok QMK support made me pull the trigger on a beige F77, but now wondering if I should go for silver/grey and get the blue keycaps? Any thoughts?
The blue keycaps are just insanely great on industrial gray ...
Those do look gorgeous. Making me happier than ever about my industrial grey pearl/pebble/mopar choice (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/28dd6a45a9985a0a3c943d58cc3f348d). (Though now I notice my KLE colors are a little bit off...)
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Hapi on Mon, 21 September 2020, 07:50:45
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 September 2020, 10:45:24
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 September 2020, 18:50:17
Second container shipment update - the factory is wrapping up the repairs and expects the shipment to go out before the end of October. In order to continue mailing out keyboards upon request, they will not be holding up the second container shipment for the dye sublimation to finish.
This is the first test of a full jig as opposed to previous tests of small jigs to work out how to achieve the tolerances, so it took a few weeks longer than previous test jigs.
Also I wanted to share (with permission) a great photo from a customer matching his True Red F77 with an SGI (Silicon Graphics) Fuel computer. A great setup!
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mode on Wed, 23 September 2020, 01:26:46
Dye sublimation update - the trial of the dye sublimation jig is set to be completed this week.
Second container shipment update - the factory is wrapping up the repairs and expects the shipment to go out before the end of October. In order to continue mailing out keyboards upon request, they will not be holding up the second container shipment for the dye sublimation to finish.
This is the first test of a full jig as opposed to previous tests of small jigs to work out how to achieve the tolerances, so it took a few weeks longer than previous test jigs.
Also I wanted to share (with permission) a great photo from a customer matching his True Red F77 with an SGI (Silicon Graphics) Fuel computer. A great setup!
(Attachment Link)
Damn that’s a good look, red is the best colour imo. They sure don’t make computers like SGI used to.
I’m still a bit tempted!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 September 2020, 15:26:07
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 25 September 2020, 08:12:20
Post by: Pete on Sat, 26 September 2020, 06:41:03
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 27 September 2020, 22:43:29
My solenoids are specced (at 6V) for 0.15a, 0.9w
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 September 2020, 20:47:55
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
This month the 500th Brand New Model F Keyboard shipped! This is a major milestone for the project.
It is a great summary of the happenings of the project since the prior update last month. Great summary for those who have not been following the project threads too closely in recent weeks.
Over on Deskthority there has been a discussion on potential third party logos and renderings which all look nice. It would be cool if everyone who wanted to could put their own initials on their new Model F keyboards!
People may like a buckling spring patent type like the one posted on the project web site, though with a square silver logo badge like the old IBM keyboards. Below is the artwork created for the project by a forum member.
The final round will continue to have no visible branding on the product itself.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: dc_in_sf on Mon, 12 October 2020, 13:29:40
(https://i.imgur.com/gaDOOgY.jpg)
I started working in 1990 at a hospital that was an IBM shop, so PS/2's and model M's everywhere (and lots of 3192 terminals). Loved those Model M's and kept using them over the next ten or so years, only stopping when I started needing a windows key (and having a brief flirtation with MS Natural keyboards).
When I got sucked into this hobby a few years ago I investigated Cherry MX green hoping to get some of that same tactile clickiness that I remembered from the Model M's but was disappointed. This board finally brings me back to the joy I remember of IBM keyboards of my youth (and now I have my own office so no one can complain about the noise).
Key caps are from Unicomp, have a couple more inbound to match my layout, but they are a pretty cheap option for anyone looking to fill their board while waiting for the GB printed keys to ship.
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 13 October 2020, 10:15:09
Currently it is still work in progress and open topics to be filled. Nevertheless, we have over 170 pages so far and things are moving forward. As long as I still correct things, move things around, and replace photos etc, I wanted to ask for some help about / around:
- Photos of original IBM Model F Keyboards not yet shown
- Topics that can't be found in the Table of Contents so far
- Obvious corrections or mistakes I made
- Illustrations, like exploded drawing of the keyboard, etc.
Updates are more frequent in Deskthority at: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24416 (https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24416)
The download of the PDF (full size / compressed pictures) at: https://www.bucklingspring.com (https://www.bucklingspring.com)
Post by: Shikada on Fri, 16 October 2020, 06:07:09
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 October 2020, 10:32:15
Hello Shikada - please do check out the project web site blog for details on the shipping timeline and status. Last month we passed 500 Brand New Model F Keyboards that have shipped so far! In summary:
With the separate shipping option (pay 10 units of $1 increments, more for shipping outside the US - PM or email me to confirm), all classic case keyboards, except True Red and Black, are in stock and can likely ship in 3-6 weeks without the low serial selection (2-3 weeks if you check the low serial/priority check box on the keyboard product page). Same for black case ultra compact F77, ANSI layout only, and regular gray case ultra compact F62, ANSI enter or HHKB split shift with 2U backspace. Unprinted pearl/pebble keys are also in stock, though all other unprinted keys and printed keys will be shipping separately, expected later this year.
For all other options, if you order now it will take several months for delivery. The second container shipment is expected to arrive later this year, by year end.
If you wait a few months until it is in stock, it will take a few months from that point for delivery because of the new orders increasing the backlog between now and then.
Post by: dc_in_sf on Fri, 16 October 2020, 11:18:17
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
I loved my F77 so much, I'm in the progress of figuring out whether I want to buy a F62 as well. These are seriously nice pieces of kit, so I'd say hop in sooner rather than later.
Post by: raptorzoz on Sat, 17 October 2020, 06:24:26
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
where did you see that it would only be accepted until october?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 17 October 2020, 09:36:58
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
I loved my F77 so much, I'm in the progress of figuring out whether I want to buy a F62 as well. These are seriously nice pieces of kit, so I'd say hop in sooner rather than later.
Has anyone customized their new Model F F62 / F77 layouts beyond the standard offerings? I'd be interested in seeing what people do to optimize their keyboards.
Please do feel free to share layout screenshots / QMK JSON files / xwhatsit firmware .l files - for the latter two I think they should be compressed to ZIP format before they can be uploaded on the forum.
Post by: euphxenos on Sat, 17 October 2020, 15:27:38
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
where did you see that it would only be accepted until october?
If you look at modelfkeyboards.com, there's a note that says:
"10/31/20
please have your orders in by then!"
That's probably what Shikada was asking about. That note has been there for several years. Every month, that date gets pushed out another month.
Post by: BlissOnTap on Sat, 17 October 2020, 19:58:46
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 17 October 2020, 20:16:43
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=461064#p461064
Some individual examples of the old Model F Keyboards I am sure have been smoothed down even more than others over time after years of use and your XT barrel may be one of them. Like with the new springs, I expect the Brand New Model F Keyboard components including barrels to change with age over time.
The new barrels just have less black color added to the plastic compared to the originals, so the deep black color is less uniform and it may look a little different when photographed but the feel is smooth.
Are you using the Brand New Model F keys or other keys by the way? My one piece keys in my experience are better than the Model M style two piece keys in terms of key feel.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 October 2020, 23:46:01
The legend alignment is improved from prior tests but is still not within my tolerances.
Below is the same scan posted earlier of the newly sublimated keys compared with original IBM keys. I have also added scans from many years ago of the same physical keys so everyone can see what four years of typing does to wear down the key top surfaces. As the textured surface wears down, the keys can become more smooth/slippery.
I expect the same to occur with the new production keys as they are the exact same material that IBM used for keys as per the IBM Model F Keyboard production engineer who has been a big help to the project. This is why I am hoping to be able to make as many spare key sets as possible so people can order them with their keyboards and have for future decades.
To see the texture it is best to save the photo or open the image in a new window to zoom in.
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Post by: Havattack on Tue, 20 October 2020, 21:24:13
Post by: mode on Thu, 22 October 2020, 01:00:44
there has to be a way to make an adapter so i can use my MX keycaps on these things.. I want a solenoid pretty bad.
No way, the shape is the total opposite of mx, the only way to do it would be to add an insane amount of height.
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 23 October 2020, 19:28:56
there has to be a way to make an adapter so i can use my MX keycaps on these things.. I want a solenoid pretty bad.
No way, the shape is the total opposite of mx, the only way to do it would be to add an insane amount of height.
If you got it to work, you'd have to use a uniform profile because of the plate curve.
Post by: diazel on Sun, 25 October 2020, 11:36:02
I could not love this thing anymore than I do. It's incredible. For all the keyboards, for all the switches I've tried, I finally understand why the Model F is considered one of the best typing experiences you can ask for.
The sheer weight of them is astounding. My fiancée asked to see this super expensive keyboard I bought and I handed her the F77 and she almost dropped it when I let go. I also might have omitted that I bought two in a moment of weakness when I thought I'd regret not having the numpad on the side.
I got the beige F62 and industrial gray F77 and at first glance, the industrial gray looked so much better but the longer I sit in front of it, the more I'm coming around to the beige as it matches better with the buttons that it came with. The only way I can describe it is "vintage clean".
The sounds this thing makes is epic. As someone who sits in a home office alone 90% of my workday, you'd think the loud noise wouldn't be a factor. I've typed on keyboards before while on conference calls and not had it been too bad. That is simply not the case here. Every single person I've been on conference call this week have all commented on the 'enhanced' noise. So whenever there are other ears "present", I have to rely on my KVM and pulling in a silent killer. But when it's just me? Holy ****. I never thought I would love it as much as I do. My models seem to have a decent amount of spring sing and I've seen a number of youtube videos employing the floss mod to quiet it so I figured if my model had it, I'd mod it because I didn't like the spring sounds I'd heard so often through Chyro's videos or demos even of this board. There's no chance of me doing that now. While wearing my headset, it is the perfect combination of music [from the springs] and actual music.
Literally the only part that I could possibly have anything to complain about would be the USB cable it came with. They both came with super long cords but one was sheathed and the other straight plastic. I hate both of them. But they're super easy to replace. So I can barely complain about that as well.
Overall, very well done, Joe. I had moments of panic after dropping that kind of money on a switch type that I had never even experienced--I have a M122 and Lexmark Model M sans buckling springs boards but they're nowhere near this. Joe was super responsive with all of his correspondence and answered all my questions and even went above and beyond in explaining simple stuff to me that was clearly on his website had I taken the time to read it all properly instead of being hasty in my excitement. Joe is awesome. Model F Keyboards is awesome. This keyboard is awesome.
Alright, I'm off to respond to all these work emails coming in with a big smile on my face. :)
Post by: dc_in_sf on Sun, 25 October 2020, 11:59:36
Okay so I just received my brand new F62 & F77 from Joe and I don't know how else to say this....
I could not love this thing anymore than I do. It's incredible. For all the keyboards, for all the switches I've tried, I finally understand why the Model F is considered one of the best typing experiences you can ask for.
The sheer weight of them is astounding. My fiancée asked to see this super expensive keyboard I bought and I handed her the F77 and she almost dropped it when I let go. I also might have omitted that I bought two in a moment of weakness when I thought I'd regret not having the numpad on the side.
I got the beige F62 and industrial gray F77 and at first glance, the industrial gray looked so much better but the longer I sit in front of it, the more I'm coming around to the beige as it matches better with the buttons that it came with. The only way I can describe it is "vintage clean".
The sounds this thing makes is epic. As someone who sits in a home office alone 90% of my workday, you'd think the loud noise wouldn't be a factor. I've typed on keyboards before while on conference calls and not had it been too bad. That is simply not the case here. Every single person I've been on conference call this week have all commented on the 'enhanced' noise. So whenever there are other ears "present", I have to rely on my KVM and pulling in a silent killer. But when it's just me? Holy ****. I never thought I would love it as much as I do. My models seem to have a decent amount of spring sing and I've seen a number of youtube videos employing the floss mod to quiet it so I figured if my model had it, I'd mod it because I didn't like the spring sounds I'd heard so often through Chyro's videos or demos even of this board. There's no chance of me doing that now. While wearing my headset, it is the perfect combination of music [from the springs] and actual music.
Literally the only part that I could possibly have anything to complain about would be the USB cable it came with. They both came with super long cords but one was sheathed and the other straight plastic. I hate both of them. But they're super easy to replace. So I can barely complain about that as well.
Overall, very well done, Joe. I had moments of panic after dropping that kind of money on a switch type that I had never even experienced--I have a M122 and Lexmark Model M sans buckling springs boards but they're nowhere near this. Joe was super responsive with all of his correspondence and answered all my questions and even went above and beyond in explaining simple stuff to me that was clearly on his website had I taken the time to read it all properly instead of being hasty in my excitement. Joe is awesome. Model F Keyboards is awesome. This keyboard is awesome.
Alright, I'm off to respond to all these work emails coming in with a big smile on my face. :)
How do you like the F62? I am loving my beige F77 (for all the reasons you mention) and am determined to pickup a 2nd board, just can't make my mind up between the F62 or another F77 (in another colorway)
I will say I recently switched to a Jabra Engage 75 for work calls, and the noise cancelling on it is so good that I was not able to demo the sound of the keys to a friend over skype, ended up having to record a separate video to send to him.
Post by: diazel on Sun, 25 October 2020, 16:20:10
How do you like the F62? I am loving my beige F77 (for all the reasons you mention) and am determined to pickup a 2nd board, just can't make my mind up between the F62 or another F77 (in another colorway)
I will say I recently switched to a Jabra Engage 75 for work calls, and the noise cancelling on it is so good that I was not able to demo the sound of the keys to a friend over skype, ended up having to record a separate video to send to him.
I got the F62 in the HHKB format which I think might be ultimately why I like this one better than my F77 even though the Industrial gray colorway of my F77 I think looks better. What's funny was I bought the beige F62 to go along with a sleeper build that I'm building out of a 1989 Macintosh IICi case which is sufficiently yellowed to match. If the F62 was standard ANSI, I think I'd prefer the F77. Yeah a noise canceling headset would be great but since I work from home on my personal station (3 monitors vs 15" laptop monitor...no thank you) so I'm always on my Steelseries pro which means they hear everything when I'm not on mute, haha.
Post by: Kavik on Sat, 31 October 2020, 01:21:22
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 31 October 2020, 11:03:50
For those who have not seen recent updates, the current state of the project is below:
Orders are still being accepted.
More than 500 Brand New Model F Keyboards have been personally tested and shipped by me.
Dye sublimation quality is excellent but the factory is working on the alignment of the legends on the keys before I approve this last step of the project.
While we wait for the dye sublimation to finish, I am continuing to send out shipments without printed keys to those who want early delivery, with printed items to ship later.
If you want your order to go out within one month from now, there is a good chance that it is in stock because I ordered extra keyboards beyond what everyone ordered, and the first container shipment arrived a while back.
The only keyboards that are not going out are those who prefer delivery all at once (e.g. if they do not have extra Model M / Model F / Unicomp keyboards to borrow keys from) and those whose keyboards are in the second of two container shipments of the early bird round (mostly the remaining keyboards with installed, unprinted blue/black keys as well as the compact case keyboards), expected to arrive around year end.
PM or email me if you have a classic case keyboard and want to ask about the separate shipping option to get your keyboard in the next month or so. Also in stock (and able to ship ahead of keys) are some compact F62 keyboards (regular gray case color, ANSI only) and compact F77 keyboards (black case color, ANSI only).
Post by: civet on Tue, 10 November 2020, 04:04:28
It's... marvelous, to such an extent that a friend who had previously been thoroughly unimpressed by a boltmodded ~94 Model M said "I wasn't expecting to like it after the M experience, but this is simply lovely. Light switches, "precise" feel, the whole package". I second that opinion.
All keys worked out of the box(after putting the blank keycaps on - smart choice to pack them separately, I could see such massive PBT boulders be a risk to ship mounted, despite the excellent packing), the layout was what I intended to set it to, there wasn't any sensing threshold issue or USB issue or anything like that, it seems everything has been ironed out. It seems to have come with QMK.
I read about the early tooling and assembly hurdles, but Ellipse's incredible attention to detail has really paid off. The Classic zinc alloy case in particular looks like a high quality commercial product. I couldn't believe the symmetry and the paint job is one I distinctly remember from 80s IBM powder coating(which is to say imperfect, but in the *exact* way required for authenticity, if that makes sense).
I know some have said it previously, but this in an M layout would probably eat a large chunk of the fancy MX clone market. Can't imagine why the Modern case F62 wouldn't do so for the whole 60% trend, apart from the limited production run.
As it stands, the F77 is close enough to a TKL for me.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 November 2020, 10:29:28
Got my Industrial Grey F77 last week. Knowing what I know now, I would wait 5 years and not regret it in the least.
It's... marvelous, to such an extent that a friend who had previously been thoroughly unimpressed by a boltmodded ~94 Model M said "I wasn't expecting to like it after the M experience, but this is simply lovely. Light switches, "precise" feel, the whole package". I second that opinion.
All keys worked out of the box(after putting the blank keycaps on - smart choice to pack them separately, I could see such massive PBT boulders be a risk to ship mounted, despite the excellent packing), the layout was what I intended to set it to, there wasn't any sensing threshold issue or USB issue or anything like that, it seems everything has been ironed out. It seems to have come with QMK.
I read about the early tooling and assembly hurdles, but Ellipse's incredible attention to detail has really paid off. The Classic zinc alloy case in particular looks like a high quality commercial product. I couldn't believe the symmetry and the paint job is one I distinctly remember from 80s IBM powder coating(which is to say imperfect, but in the *exact* way required for authenticity, if that makes sense).
I know some have said it previously, but this in an M layout would probably eat a large chunk of the fancy MX clone market. Can't imagine why the Modern case F62 wouldn't do so for the whole 60% trend, apart from the limited production run.
As it stands, the F77 is close enough to a TKL for me.
Thanks for your review civet! Glad everything is up and running.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 November 2020, 22:31:17
The factory has made excellent progress over the past two weeks on sublimating entire key sets. They are DHL Express mailing me the key set samples for evaluation.
I will upload better photos after receiving the key sets in person.
The engineers report that the key sublimation quality remains excellent and they are working on the consistency of alignment.
As noted before, the goal is to get these keys in line with the 99th percentile example of the Model F, with the expectation that we will reasonably achieve the 50th percentile or better. From the prior keys received in hand I think we've achieved 99th percentile sublimation quality (hoping these hold up with the incoming samples!) and am hoping for 50th percentile or better alignment.
Some keys will always be slightly out of alignment tolerance - even so with IBM - so the goal is not perfection. According to my digital caliper measurements of an excellent, probably 90th+ percentile IBM XT keyboard example with outstanding sublimation quality, 24% of its keys aligned out of the bounds of the standard deviation (an amazingly tiny 0.15mm!). IBM's out of bounds on this set ranged up from 0.18mm to 0.46mm variance from the average alignment of the key set (still excellent results). As I've seen having owned and refurbed dozens of F's over the years, the standard deviation was far larger / looser on many of the other, later production units.
Looking at the compressed photos they sent me, about 16% to 21% of the keys were noticeably outside of tolerance of alignment. Will probably be more once I have looked more closely and am able to measure.
The goal is to get at least the alignment consistency to around what the typical IBM Model F alignment was over the life of the Model F (I wouldn't be holding up everyone's sublimated keycaps orders if we're at the 50th Model F percentile instead of the 99th percentile of alignment, for example).
Next steps: If I approve the sublimation quality, they are going to continue testing to determine the best settings for correct alignment while still maintaining the same sublimation quality. Once everything is approved, mass sublimation will start. They will be sublimating and inspecting thousands of key sets so it will take some time but we will proceed only if everything is right and the factory is aware that out of tolerance alignment is not acceptable.
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Post by: civet on Wed, 11 November 2020, 03:11:42
I do have one question, though: have you thought about reverse dyesub on the black keys? As in... dyesubbing the whole key black, save for a letter-shaped area.
Post by: diazel on Wed, 11 November 2020, 07:12:08
I can only speak for myself, but I appreciate the attention to detail is the same for the printed keys as for the rest of the keyboard.
Agreed. I just brought my F77 to the office to annoy my boss. Instead of being annoyed, he was impressed with the quality, shocked by the weight, and then proceeded to recount all these tales of installing old XT & AT terminal units back in the day at $3-8k a pop.
Naturally, I'm excited about the keycaps because I'm sure as hell not going to find all blue with dye-sub legends on Unicomp's website! I've got some donor sets that will hold me over but I can't wait until those blues and blacks.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 16 November 2020, 12:11:25
I can only speak for myself, but I appreciate the attention to detail is the same for the printed keys as for the rest of the keyboard.
Agreed. I just brought my F77 to the office to annoy my boss. Instead of being annoyed, he was impressed with the quality, shocked by the weight, and then proceeded to recount all these tales of installing old XT & AT terminal units back in the day at $3-8k a pop.
Naturally, I'm excited about the keycaps because I'm sure as hell not going to find all blue with dye-sub legends on Unicomp's website! I've got some donor sets that will hold me over but I can't wait until those blues and blacks.
Ha, this is great! Thanks for sharing this story. If anyone else has Model F stories please do share them!
Also some good news - the lost/stolen keyboard has been safely returned to me by Cargo Largo in cooperation with the buyer who agreed to return it. I want to thank Cargo Largo and the buyer for their cooperation and helpfulness. I especially want to thank the buyer for checking out my blog entry about this particular lost/stolen keyboard and letting me know about it. As a recap, the back story is that an eBay user (and winner of the new Model F auction) suspected that the Cargo Largo listing may have been the exact keyboard that was "lost" by UPS and resold by an affiliated company Cargo Largo, which tends to sell a lot of such items "lost" by UPS. I confirmed by serial number that it in fact was the specific keyboard in question.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 16 November 2020, 14:02:42
More good news - the latest sublimation tests arrived today by DHL Express and the quality is outstanding, as good as the earlier samples and in my opinion equal to or better than my 99th percentile quality IBM Model F reference set. I have also examined them with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope like last time.
Legend alignment has improved significantly from last month's testing, but it is still not good enough in some instances. The factory noted that they are going to focus on the alignment, now that the sublimation quality has been confirmed good. As a note, some keys are repeat keys because the jig holds more keys than are contained in a standard key set. Some keys like Ctrl, Alt, Left Shift have been left out of the key set sample. Please see my prior note about the Function keys - the below alignment is not correct for the function keys and Esc keys (as well as other keys) and they will be standard Model F / Model M locations for the production key sets.
Also I have posted the November update on the project web site blog - for a summary of all the updates and forum postings please head over there. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
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Post by: jterp7 on Tue, 17 November 2020, 18:41:02
Thanks darkcruix for your update on the case powdercoating and on the Model F manual.
Interest check: ultra durable modern style powdercoating for classic zinc and/or compact aluminum cases?
Just to show everyone how far powdercoating has come: here's a video of me taking the end of a screwdriver and trying to damage these samples. Only the faintest of marks was left on these cases.
I am wondering if anyone would be interested in tough coatings for the final round. I am planning on switching at least the compact cases to the tough powdercoating instead of the anodizing. The appearance is great for both of them and the powdercoating is far more durable than anodizing. You'll still be able to get the classic powdercoating no matter what, as a possible option for the classic style cases.
Any update on the powder coating for the compact cases?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 November 2020, 19:49:00
Post by: Pete on Wed, 18 November 2020, 22:54:24
All painting and anodizing is staying the same for now. I will post an update if that changes in the future.
Is that two seperate processes used for different keyboards, or two stages in the same process of applying the color?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 November 2020, 22:56:10
Post by: Pete on Thu, 19 November 2020, 16:05:15
Please see my prior note about the Function keys - the below alignment is not correct for the function keys and Esc keys (as well as other keys) and they will be standard Model F / Model M locations for the production key sets.
What was the note about the Function keys? I am wondering, do the dedicated F1 - F12 keycaps come with each order that includes keycaps?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 19 November 2020, 16:23:45
Yes the key cap sets are full 103 key sets so you could even use them on another buckling spring keyboard. Check any of the 4 product pages to see the key set keys. If you order any F77 with a key set, you get another key - the 1U 0 Ins key for the number pad area.
Post by: Pete on Thu, 19 November 2020, 16:26:26
Yes the key cap sets are full 103 key sets so you could even use them on another buckling spring keyboard. Check any of the 4 product pages to see the key set keys. If you order any F77 with a key set, you get another key - the 1U 0 Ins key for the number pad area.
Awesome, thanks!
Post by: Pete on Fri, 20 November 2020, 14:35:21
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 20 November 2020, 15:24:29
Most or all of the spare parts are certainly important, even if you have to fix something that was damaged accidentally like a spring or a controller if you trip on the cord and the controller breaks (has happened to a number of people). I believe that the spare parts will become increasingly valuable in the years to come, to avoid having to purchase and cannibalize another Model F keyboard for parts.
Post by: Kookiekurls on Sat, 05 December 2020, 14:48:17
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 December 2020, 17:54:06
Post by: sleepy916 on Mon, 07 December 2020, 02:48:14
I'll have to buy a set of the new keys and get a split right shift key.
(https://i.imgur.com/YFYDGIu.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 07 December 2020, 05:58:30
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 09 December 2020, 17:31:31
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 December 2020, 08:41:25
Dye sublimation update: The factory continues to improve the placement of the sublimation. Results have improved from the previously posted test. Fewer keys are noticeably out of place. They are continuing to work on this. Please disregard the wrong color used on some of the test keys; all keys will be the correct color for production. I am hoping for everything to be finalized this month with dye sublimation to begin in January before the weekslong Chinese New Year break.
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Post by: LightningXI on Sun, 13 December 2020, 08:19:46
Post by: Water lee on Sun, 13 December 2020, 11:01:59
Post by: sam123456 on Sun, 13 December 2020, 13:57:54
I'm just curious about one thing: what are the f-keys for? I didn't think you were selling any keyboards with an f row... did I miss something?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 13 December 2020, 17:12:36
The key sets for this project are full and include Function keys etc. so that they can be used on other buckling spring keyboards (Model M, original Model F). Everyone ordering a key set gets the full set instead of just 62/77 keys.
Post by: sam123456 on Mon, 14 December 2020, 15:23:33
Yep sam that is a good idea to get a spare key set because the key tops wear down after a few years of usage. Check out the project web site blog to see an example of my original IBM F122 keys before and after a few years of usage.
The key sets for this project are full and include Function keys etc. so that they can be used on other buckling spring keyboards (Model M, original Model F). Everyone ordering a key set gets the full set instead of just 62/77 keys.
Very nice! I just assumed I'd get 77 keys per set, but that's a pretty nice added bonus.
I'll be honest, I wasn't really thinking of longevity when I bought two sets of keys. I just love the Industrial SSK color scheme with the grey body, white alphas, and blue other keys. But thank you for helping me rationalize my purchase! :p
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 18 December 2020, 13:33:12
Reminder from my recent months' blog posts: while we wait for sublimation of the keys to finish, the “separate shipping” option is still available for you to request. This option allows your keyboard to ship in the coming weeks instead of waiting further. The only keyboards that are not going out are those who prefer delivery all at once (e.g. if they do not have extra Model M / Model F / Unicomp keyboards to borrow keys from) and those whose keyboards are in the second of two container shipments of the early bird round, now expected to arrive end of January or early February. The cost is typically between $10 and $20 for the separate shipping option. Contact me over email with your order number to request separate shipping and I will see if you're eligible. There is also a newly added option: you can substitute the keys you ordered for unprinted pearl/pebble keys, or order an extra set of unprinted pearl/pebble keys if you would prefer to stay with brand new Model F keycaps.
Post by: reavy on Fri, 18 December 2020, 14:38:38
Post by: online on Fri, 18 December 2020, 18:25:22
I only tried buckling spring keyboard once at a meetup, so I don't know much about it. I've skimmed through posts to get the info, but still have some questions need clearing out.
1. Is the board comes with dye-sub keycaps that are in development?
2. Is the controller has USB-C or Micro USB receptacle?
3. What's the lead time If I place an order today?
4. I know QMK is in beta atm, but does it support most of the functionalities? Particularly tap-hold keys? I use spacebar as a tap-hold layer key, which is important to me as I've got used to accessing the shortcut for the software I use for work.
5. Finally, can someone check my order list? I'm a bit confused about what to order for F62 Model F with solenoids. (I'm in for the loudest click that MX can't give me. :D)
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Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 19 December 2020, 09:49:50
1. Yes
2. It has micro USB most likely (some keyboards have USB-C).
3. Please email me to confirm lead times.
4. Please contact Deskthority user pandrew to confirm QMK details.
5. Your order looks good!
Post by: online on Sat, 19 December 2020, 21:30:36
Great online, glad you are joining the project! Kindly see my replies below:Thanks for answering the questions! Just placed an order. :)
1. Yes
2. It has micro USB most likely (some keyboards have USB-C).
3. Please email me to confirm lead times.
4. Please contact Deskthority user pandrew to confirm QMK details.
5. Your order looks good!
Post by: Quarzac on Sat, 19 December 2020, 23:50:48
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 December 2020, 00:44:24
Some special inventory items, looking at my list:
I have to double check this but as of now I think I have one unclaimed keyboard with black unprinted keys installed: F62 Industrial Gray, split shift and split backspace. This is the last black key set that can ship for the next couple months. The rest of the blue, black, and dark gray sets will be here in a couple months.
I also have F62 Beige, ANSI Enter and Split Backspace with Pearl/Pebble unprinted keys installed
And F77 Beige with Split Shift and 2U backspace with Pearl/Pebble unprinted keys installed
First come first served so please do double check with me before ordering if you would prefer not to wait.
Post by: yuejia on Mon, 21 December 2020, 20:14:10
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 December 2020, 21:09:53
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Post by: DrivenKeys on Sat, 26 December 2020, 22:14:04
Post by: yuejia on Tue, 29 December 2020, 02:38:11
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 December 2020, 14:00:43
Here are photos of the goods ready to be picked up and the truck being loaded. Unfortunately there is no photo of everything loaded up, just the "in progress" photos were taken.
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Post by: funkmon on Sat, 02 January 2021, 22:42:10
Anyway, a think I don't like is the QMK firmware. I do appreciate that it was completely plug and play, it just worked, but it was difficult to set my own layout. I couldn't use their configurator tool online, it never let me download the firmware, so I couldn't make my dumbass modifications needed, mostly for the numpad, but to also add a few function keys I consider necessary for the first layer. So, I flashed xwhatsit back on there, and now life is good. :)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 January 2021, 10:49:52
As a note for everyone, the QMK Model F firmware is still in beta and is not yet part of the official QMK to my knowledge, so everyone who wants to update their QMK layouts should send a PM to pandrew on Deskthority to request access to the beta. This is only required if you want to change something - the keyboards come preprogrammed.
Post by: funkmon on Sun, 03 January 2021, 13:39:47
Great funkmon; glad your keyboard arrived safely and is working well!
As a note for everyone, the QMK Model F firmware is still in beta and is not yet part of the official QMK to my knowledge, so everyone who wants to update their QMK layouts should send a PM to pandrew to request access to the beta. This is only required if you want to change something - the keyboards come preprogrammed.
Ahh that makes sense. I somehow totally forgot to do that, even though I read it. I am dumb. Oh well! I'm an old guy so I need to do old guy stuff like use old firmware that isn't as good.
Post by: pchatterjee on Tue, 05 January 2021, 20:38:43
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 January 2021, 22:47:20
Yes, the factory default is ~ ` as the function layer of the top left key (Esc). Press Fn+Esc for ` and Fn+Shift+Esc for ~. Fn is defaulted to the right ctrl key on the non-HHKB layouts and the 1U key to the right of the HHKB style split right shift key.
Everyone can see the full default layout and function layers as it has been added to each of the 4 product pages - example https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/
Post by: pchatterjee on Wed, 06 January 2021, 17:43:24
Great pchatterjee, glad your keyboard arrived OK!
Yes, the factory default is ~ ` as the function layer of the top left key (Esc). Press Fn+Esc for ` and Fn+Shift+Esc for ~. Fn is defaulted to the right ctrl key on the non-HHKB layouts and the 1U key to the right of the HHKB style split right shift key.
Everyone can see the full default layout and function layers as it has been added to each of the 4 product pages - example https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/
Awesome that worked Ellipse! Love the keyboard and the grey pantone color came out really nice with the white keys!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 January 2021, 18:02:35
I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert. The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:
https://www.amazon.com/SK-Tools-SKT-7635-Straight-Pliers/dp/B00061SMZI/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407-B-Straight-Pliers/dp/B00HRY1UEW/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407-NP-Straight-Pliers/dp/B08GYKSBZW/
https://www.amazon.com/Lang-Tools-KAS1407-Straight-Pliers/dp/B07PDGYXJ9/
https://www.amazon.com/JONNESWAY-AI040006-STRAIGHT-REMOVING-INSTALLING/dp/B08D9T9519/
Post by: rwiker on Mon, 18 January 2021, 00:51:37
Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out? These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts. Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.
I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert. The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:
When I got my F77, I didn't realise that the stabiliser inserts were actually different and not just different colours, so ended up using the wrong stabiliser for the "Enter" key. That didn't work too well... I looked at various pliers, but in the end I just used a wood screw of appropriate size. I placed the screw inside the stabiliser, turned it a few times and pulled the screw and stabiliser out with a pair of pliers.
Thanks, by the way - I have used Model Ms almost exclusively for 25 years, and thought they were the absolute pinnacle of keyboards. My Model F has thoroughly disabused me of that notion!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 18 January 2021, 10:55:50
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 January 2021, 11:48:26
darkcruix over on the Deskthority project thread posted detailed setup instructions to add LEDs to the new Model F keyboards. https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=477571#p477571
The xwhatsit controller (whether with xwhatsit or QMK firmware) allows you to have both a solenoid and LEDs at the same time.
Post by: directheatedtriode on Thu, 21 January 2021, 17:22:50
Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.
Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 22 January 2021, 08:48:10
Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.
Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.
Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?
That seems odd to me. I'm typing on an original F107 right now. I'm usually a pretty heavy-handed typist, but the Model M (in the past) had always been too fatiguing for me. I can't stand MX blacks for long periods, but don't mind most stiff clickies like the box navies. I always find SKCM blue to be a lot stiffer and harder to get accustomed to whenever I randomly switch boards (I do that a lot) than most switches, even though they're wonderful switches. 55g Topre doesn't seem heavy to me.
The Model F always felt so light to me. The tactility is even very subdued, it seems to me to just be the way that the resistance of the spring stacks just before it buckles that makes it seem very tactile. I first discovered the joys of capacitive buckling spring with the F XT (untouched through the ages, and still is besides replacing the cable). I found the layout unusable, so I moved on to multiple F ATs (since why only have one in a single place I may be typing out of many?). Long story short, I have a lot of time into typing on various F AT variants. This F107 is the only one that's been restored, by a previous owner. The 4704-based keyboards (all of those in Zinc chassis) actually seem a tiny bit lighter to me than the others (including my new production F77). All of my F ATs and F XTs are buttery smooth and light, regardless of how terrible they may or may not look inside (I haven't even opened them all). I literally went straight from Cherry MX blue to capacitive buckling spring without any problem, and Cherry MX blue feels like there's not even any resistance at all to me these days.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Post by: reavy on Fri, 22 January 2021, 09:30:04
W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.
Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.
All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.
Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 22 January 2021, 10:07:10
My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.
W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.
Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.
All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.
Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”
Do any seem heavy though? I think there's a very minimal difference between my ATs and my XT, and a minimal difference between all of those and my two 4704 boards, one old and one new. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I hadn't at least used two of those separate types very recently though. I may even need to have them side by side. None of them seem heavy at all to me and never have. I always got this sense that they even seem too light for the perceived tactility.
Post by: rknize on Fri, 22 January 2021, 10:11:23
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2021, 10:29:21
My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.
W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.
Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.
All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.
Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”
Do any seem heavy though? I think there's a very minimal difference between my ATs and my XT, and a minimal difference between all of those and my two 4704 boards, one old and one new. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I hadn't at least used two of those separate types very recently though. I may even need to have them side by side. None of them seem heavy at all to me and never have. I always got this sense that they even seem too light for the perceived tactility.
Interestingly, I've come across a number of reports indicating that the new Model F's key forces are even lighter than those of the original Model F keyboards. Agreed on the sample variations, even among IBM Model F keyboards. User comments, including those mentioning the lightness, are in the mix of links I posted aggregating the various new Model F reviews and photos: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/brand-new-model-f-keyboards-may-update/
I think the smoothness of the new Model F components has something to do with it and makes the experience seem even better than a comparable keyboard key with a similar force weighting. Even if you are used to typing on a lighter keyboard, I think you can easily get used to the new Model F's smoothness even if your one original Model F sample was not optimal after 35+ years.
Post by: reavy on Fri, 22 January 2021, 11:09:28
Do any seem heavy though?
None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.
Post by: reavy on Fri, 22 January 2021, 11:14:20
I think that keyboard mileage is also a factor. This Lexmark M that I am typing on now was pretty stiff when I bought it new in 1994. I was comparing it to the well-used IBM Ms that I was using in some of the old computer labs at school at the time. I used this keyboard all through college and then brought it to work where it became my work keyboard for well over a decade. I own several over M's of various vintages as well as some Unicomps. This keyboard is the softest of the Ms that I own, but is still stiffer than any of my Model Fs.
My ancient IBM Model M is the stiffest of my Model Ms. I have a Unicomp manufactured in 2008 (my favorite, before the layout change), that is stiff-ish but well broken in. I have two newer Unicomps that were manufactured on the same date but have totally different sounds, smoothness, and stiffness from each other.
I think there is some evidence that the membrane material stiffens over time. If anyone can comment on that, it would be interesting.
Anecdotally, I think that the Topre rubber domes stiffen over time. I have also noticed some variation based on the ambient temperature in the room where I'm working, a la the Challenger disaster. I would think that the Model Fs would be totally immune to this kind of behavior with the exception of some material property changes of the springs with temperature.
Post by: directheatedtriode on Sat, 23 January 2021, 07:11:49
To add some more to my post - with my XT I believe it was the initial tactile bump pressure that was what was causing my fatigue as they would collapse rapidly and with ease once that was overcome. At the time I did many searches and found very, very few people that seemed to have the same issue as me though a handful on Deskthority did say it was the heaviest switch he used, heavier than others like Topre 55 and Cherry MX Clear. The spacebar on my XT was also no doubt causing some of that thumb fatigue as well but I guess that is understandable with that massive spacebar and hitting it towards the edge of the bar.
Physically the board was in excellent condition but I never opened it up and one of the F keys was missing a spring. So that fatigue along with the missing spring and knowing I didn't have a perfectly functioning board caused me to sell it quickly. I did love the way it felt to type on. I regularly used a Model M 20 years earlier at a friend's house whose dad had all Model Ms for all their computers and no doubt I do recall that being more fatiguing to type on than the Model F XT.
On my comment on the vint blacks - my daily use one is from a NOS Cherry board board with switches so smooth they feel factory lubed, for some reason even with stock springs it feels lighter than any vint black from WYSE terminals... probably because every WYSE terminal I've harvested switches from has junk sandpaper switches making them feel heavy. But even having said that I do not use those with stock springs they have been swapped with Sprits.
Post by: directheatedtriode on Sat, 23 January 2021, 07:17:20
Do any seem heavy though?
None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.
Do you mind listing some other switches that you find heavier, roughly similar and lighter than your new Model F? Just to give me some context. I've used nearly every Cherry and Alps switch and both Topre weights. I just don't have experience with the rare and exotic switches.
Post by: mode on Sat, 23 January 2021, 14:41:11
Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.
Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.
Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?
My wife has both an F122 and an F77 and they feel very similar, both are a little heavier than blue alps, between blue and pine white imo.
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 25 January 2021, 15:18:41
I really appreciate all the recent feedback.
No problem. There are a lot of Model F fanatics, so you'll have no shortage of it.
To add some more to my post - with my XT I believe it was the initial tactile bump pressure that was what was causing my fatigue as they would collapse rapidly and with ease once that was overcome. At the time I did many searches and found very, very few people that seemed to have the same issue as me though a handful on Deskthority did say it was the heaviest switch he used, heavier than others like Topre 55 and Cherry MX Clear. The spacebar on my XT was also no doubt causing some of that thumb fatigue as well but I guess that is understandable with that massive spacebar and hitting it towards the edge of the bar.
That's interesting. I always considered the tactile event misleading in its level of tactility. If you hover just around the point where the spring buckles, there's only the lightest of bumps when it does, although the corresponding drop in required pressure is also dramatic. I never got the impression that it took much effort to cause the spring to buckle either, although the pressure required to continue depressing the key ramps up rapidly before it does so. Maybe this comes down to typing style, somehow. Capacitive buckling spring certainly seems much lighter to me than what the Input Club measured (https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile-clicky/ibm-buckling-spring-capacitive/):
IBM Buckling Spring, Capacitive
Style
Tactile, Clicky
Manufacturer IBM
Community Name Model F
Stem Color Black
Actuation Force Heavy
Tactile Method Buckling Spring
LED Styles None
Tactile Peak Force ~76 gf
Actuation Force
Bottom-Out Force ~69 gf
Spring Force
Overall travel ~4.1mm
Tactile event ~2.7mm
Actuation
Cross-point Capacitive PCB
Interestingly, they put the bottom out force of membrane buckling spring (https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile-clicky/ibm-buckling-spring-membrane/) only 2 grams higher than that of capacitive, and a whole 8 grams lighter at the point of actuation.
I don't have a huge amount of time with typing on 55g Topre, and I don't believe I have any MX clear boards (just loose switches). I have spent at least a few hours playing with my Realforce though. I never got the impression that 55g Topre was particularly heavy. Heavier than most conventional modern rubber domes, but not excessively so. I could try to compare tonight, but I would peg 55g Topre as heavier than capacitive buckling spring offhand, at least the way that I perceive it.
On my comment on the vint blacks - my daily use one is from a NOS Cherry board board with switches so smooth they feel factory lubed, for some reason even with stock springs it feels lighter than any vint black from WYSE terminals... probably because every WYSE terminal I've harvested switches from has junk sandpaper switches making them feel heavy. But even having said that I do not use those with stock springs they have been swapped with Sprits.
I haven't noticed much difference between any of the MX black switches I have. I have brand new switches from surplus boards manufactured at random points in the past 20 years or so, and "vintage" blacks. Mine have all been indistinguishable from each other in terms of feel. Input Club also has graphs and measurements on MX blacks. (https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/linear/cherry-mx-black-mechanical-switches/) That puts them roughly around the same as buckling spring (at least in their testing), but slightly heavier overall considering there's no drop in pressure. For me, for whatever reason, I don't seem to mind heavy clickies or tactiles nearly as much as heavy linears. MX clears seem to be rated by them to be the heaviest of the ones you've mentioned, in their testing. (https://input.club/cherry-mx-clear/) They don't seem to have tested Topre. They also tested box navies to be a lot lighter than I would have thought (https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile-clicky/novelkeys-box-navy/), lighter even than capacitive buckling spring. If for nothing else, the graphs should shed some insight though. A lot of switches people perceive to be very heavy either have no tactile event at all, or stiffen very suddenly before the tactile event.
Do any seem heavy though?
None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.
Do you mind listing some other switches that you find heavier, roughly similar and lighter than your new Model F? Just to give me some context. I've used nearly every Cherry and Alps switch and both Topre weights. I just don't have experience with the rare and exotic switches.
What do you consider to be rare or exotic? It is hard to compare capacitive buckling spring to much of anything 1:1 because of how unique it is. I perceive capacitive buckling spring to be very light. It seems to me that I end up needing a lot of practice to move from it to heavier switches if I use it exclusively for some time as well, particularly to SKCM blues. I have less of a tough time moving between capacitive buckling spring and lighter MX switches like reds and blues (since these are the only MX switches I use routinely).
If you want specific comparisons to some common switches, let me know and I can compare my new F77 to it if I have a board that contains them nearby tonight.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 January 2021, 21:03:40
Dye sublimation update:
We finally have some approvable key sets! See the below example - please note some keys have been slightly cut off in the photo. And the photo was taken with a camera, not a scanner, so there may be some distortion.
I hope the below key set will be representative of the new Model F sets going out to everyone. The alignment is within the original IBM Model F tolerances I have personally seen from dozens of originals I have collected / restored over the years. The most salient note to the factory is the Print Screen type keys which are a little too close for comfort to the edge but I would not be exchanging someone's keys or key sets if in general they match what IBM deemed acceptable on a sold product; see my 11/10/20 post for more details - one paragraph copied below:
"Some keys will always be slightly out of alignment tolerance - even so with IBM - so the goal is not perfection. According to my digital caliper measurements of an excellent, probably 90th+ percentile IBM XT keyboard example with outstanding sublimation quality, 24% of its keys aligned out of the bounds of the standard deviation (an amazingly tiny 0.15mm!). IBM's out of bounds on this set ranged up from 0.18mm to 0.46mm variance from the average alignment of the key set (still excellent results). As I've seen having owned and refurbed dozens of F's over the years, the standard deviation was far larger / looser on many of the other, later production units."
[attachimg=1]
If all goes well the factory is going to try to make a small number of sets of US ANSI, Apple/Mac, and HHKB 6 key and send them to me before Chinese New Year break. That way I can start getting orders out.
To keep things simple I am not going to accept shipping requests for the keys and cannot answer questions of "is my keyboard in this key set batch" (please don't ask!), though everyone can still continue to request separate shipping without keys. Everything will go out in priority order, putting at top of the list the single digit serials, early bird tooling volunteers, and custom/low serial orders in order of the date of your first keyboard ordered. With current production estimates there will be no remaining sets in the first batch for other keyboards. In keeping with policies over the past year, your order cannot go out if even one item cannot ship.
Also now that the second container shipment is on its way, beginning in March you can start to request separate shipment without keys for a wider variety of keyboards. Below is a list of the keyboards expected to be received as part of the second container shipment, arriving around the end of February:
Product Name Color Layout Keys
Compact F62 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black ANSI Enter
Compact F62 Black ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Black ISO Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black ISO Enter
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace and short spacBlack unprinted keys
Compact F62 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray ISO Enter
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Black ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Black ISO Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black ISO Enter
Compact F77 Black ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Carolina Blue ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F77 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F77 Dark Blue ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Dark Blue ISO Enter
Compact F77 Dark Blue Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F77 Regular Gray ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Regular Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray ISO Enter
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F62 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F62 Black ANSI Enter
F62 Black ANSI Enter and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
F62 Black ANSI Enter and Split Backspace
F62 Black ISO Enter
F62 Black ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short lBlack unprinted keys
F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Industrial Gray F62 scumnc ANSI Enter
F62 Industrial Gray ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F62 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Off-White/Beige F62 scumnc ANSI Enter
F62 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter
F62 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter and Split Right Shift, 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 True Red ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F62 True Red ANSI Enter
F62 True Red Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F77 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F77 Black ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Black ISO Enter Black unprinted keys
F77 Black ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short lBlack unprinted keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F77 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter
F77 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Industrial Gray ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
F77 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
F77 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 True Red ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Post by: jacobsoncharlie on Tue, 26 January 2021, 23:52:37
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 January 2021, 11:37:54
The above list refers to factory installations of keys only. As noted around the announcement of the blue key offerings, those keys are not installed by the factory. Thousands of accessory parts including extra unprinted keys are also shipping in the current container shipment - including beam controllers, solenoids, solenoid drivers, extra keyboard cases and packaging, blue keys, and dark gray keys.
Post by: dc_in_sf on Thu, 28 January 2021, 17:58:46
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 January 2021, 23:17:31
Thanks to Zed's updates of the sublimation artwork, the factory received the approved artwork for production today! As seen in the prior samples, the artwork was a little thicker than the IBM originals (I guess because of a bit of bleed/dye migration in the sublimation process) so now the legends should be the same thickness as the originals. The factory will be doing some testing and will then finally start production in the final days before CNY break!
The key sets were the last aspect of production for bringing the Model F back to life and it is great that production is starting, though only a small number of sets can possibly be completed and mailed to me in the remaining days before their time off. When they return their focus will be on ramping up sublimation. I ended up spending significantly more than expected on several units of customized equipment and additional costs for dye sublimation - all new! Since we are making thousands of key sets (plus thousands of individual extra keys) it will take months to complete. I expect them to send sets as they go as opposed to everything only when everything is done but this is not finalized.
The keys proved to be the most difficult part of the project. As noted on the project web site blog, production of the first key molds begin in early 2017 and failed to achieve IBM's tolerances that I had required, costing 5 figures in losses that were not recovered. Then production of the key molds started with another factory in late 2017 and succeeded, but it took over one year to create the molds and finish the first order of keys (a typical injection mold can be completed in 30-60 days or less, like for the barrels and flippers). (However as detailed on the blog, there were many other challenges along the way and the timing was such that the keys were not a bottleneck to finishing production and assembly of the early bird keyboards' first batch received in late 2019 - had we not ordered brand new keys the keyboards would still have been shipped around the same time). After years of my own sublimation R&D (overlapping with the key production timeline) and R&D over in China starting in May 2020 we are finally at the production stage of what I believe are IBM XT quality one piece Model F keys!
Post by: m_v_k on Fri, 29 January 2021, 15:46:44
Post by: mode on Sat, 30 January 2021, 09:38:07
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 31 January 2021, 01:30:59
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
As noted before, a big thanks to forum member Zed for creating and updating the sublimation artwork. The factory received the approved artwork for production and started production this week. We only have a few days left before Chinese New Year but if all goes well the factory is going to try to make a small number of sets of US ANSI, Apple/Mac, and HHKB 6 key and send them to me before Chinese New Year break. That way I can start getting orders with printed key sets out.
Below are examples of some of the production Brand New Model F key sets bagged up and ready to be express mailed to me:
[attachimg=1]
And here are two Enter keys hanging out together (this is from finalized dye sublimation artwork). The texture is so fresh on the new key molds that the legends seem to glisten if the key is positioned just at the right angle to a light source. Of course there’s no glistening, just deep black when viewing the keys as you are typing on the keyboard as opposed to viewing straight down with a strong light source.
The angle of lighting and the angle of your camera definitely affect the perception of the keys as shown by these two identical keys at slightly different angles.
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 01 February 2021, 22:30:07
2016 63
2017 104
2018 106
2019 146
2020 135
2021 18
Total 572
To avoid further complications I will not accept "split split shipping" requests - all the printed keys someone ordered will ship in the same shipment.
I also asked them to include in the express mail shipment about 50 "B stock" non-approved key sets made during their testing - not up to my standards but not unusable. These sets are among the very first new Model F sets and have the slightly thicker artwork in the below link, and definitely a number of keys with less precise alignment, possibly worse or possibly better than what was in this photo: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=477782#p477782
In the interest of getting out as many printed key sets as possible, these "B stock" key sets are going to be made available for fast shipment (within several weeks) at a higher price to help cover the thousands of dollars in project cost overruns incurred just on items related to the dye sublimation, as well as help cover the significant express mail fees of shipping lots of keys by air mail.
By ordering one of these "B stock" sets you will be one of the first to receive a printed key set, and is a good option to consider if you are not 100% picky on achieving IBM Model F standards of alignment as I am and would prefer to start using a printed key set as soon as possible. After these sets I won't be offering B stock at all. The factory will just replace any keys in a key set based on my tolerance specifications so that they won't have to discard an entire key set.
In the interest of honoring the original priority from the beginning of the project (where feasible: single digit, then low serial, then all remaining keyboards), no one can order now any of the first batch of printed sets that are shipping.
Post by: profanum429 on Tue, 02 February 2021, 19:34:17
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 February 2021, 19:51:42
Post by: profanum429 on Tue, 02 February 2021, 21:36:25
US ANSI, Mac, and HHKB 6 key sets are included in B stock.
Excellent, I look forward to trying to snag a set! :)
Post by: Cods on Wed, 03 February 2021, 02:51:08
- Printed keys coming!
- "Everything will go out in priority order, putting at top of the list the single digit serials, early bird tooling volunteers, and custom/low serial orders in order of the date of your first keyboard ordered."
I tick all those boxes.
And now working from home a lot more, I can clack away to my heart's content.
OK, so, now I'm totally hyped.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 February 2021, 13:56:46
Dye sub update: the very first production sublimated key sets have shipped! Here's the factory report on the current shipment:
Approved production sets:
Base sets: 201
HKKB sets: 202
MAC sets: 203
0 Ins 1U key (included on F77 keyboards configured with a printed new Model F key set): 225 keys
B STOCK - Old artwork/non-approved alignment:
Base sets: 50
HKKB and MAC sets: 25 each
As noted earlier the purpose of selling the B Stock is to cover the thousands of dollars in additional costs related to dye sub and express shipping of sublimated keys, so it will be sold at higher cost than a good quality set. The benefit is that you get a shipping priority (get your B Stock key set/sets months earlier) and you help support the project a little more through helping to cover the cost overruns. I think allowing some people the option to help the project a little more helps avoid having to pass along price increases across the board (pun intended!). Same thing with pricing accessories and extra key sets higher to keep the base keyboard price as close to the original price as possible.
B Stock keys are all sold as is, with sublimation defects (non-approved, noticeably off alignment for some keys, slightly thicker/bolder artwork).
Please email me if interested - pricing for the regular ANSI US key set will be a $30 premium per set to the regular $69 price ($99 total per set). Shipping costs just for keys and any other small in stock accessories will be free in the US, $16 in Canada and $20 worldwide. The HHKB and Mac sets will have an $11 premium ($35 total) and have the same shipping costs. And as noted before, no one can order any of the production sets in this batch for immediate shipment - they are all going to those who have been waiting.
After the keys are in hand I can start taking orders for the B stock.
Starting now with this post, I will be taking reservations for B Stock by email (not by PM or forum post) - first come first served for the 50 sets - will be based on email received timestamp. Please let me know the number of sets of each type that you will be ordering.
To keep things (relatively!) simple, upgrades of previous key set orders are not available - has to be a new order.
Post by: euphxenos on Fri, 05 February 2021, 00:55:04
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 February 2021, 01:04:25
Someone did ask me for a list of the remaining low serial numbers 50 and under so I posted an update about availability of custom/low serials on the latest blog post on the project web site - it is copied below:
Thank you to those who have supported the project a little extra by considering a low serial addon – it is much appreciated to help cover the tens of thousands of dollars of project cost overruns and get your keyboard far faster. Feel free to add this on to a previous order to upgrade it to low serial (you can choose free shipping on this order if it’s just for the serial number upgrade).
There are different levels of low serial, ranging from single digit serials, to 10-50 range of serials, to other low serials 51 and higher. The standard $39 option (the same as the option to have a low serial when configuring the keyboards) allows for requests 51 and higher. Other options can be selected by picking the single digit serial or 10-50 serial. It is ok to upgrade from the $39 option you chose to the $99 option using the store item $1 increments to make up the difference.
All low/custom serial options allow the option to request a custom date / year that will go on the product label. A birthday, birthdate (with birth year!), or anniversary are all possibilities to consider. You can send a list of preferred serials in priority order, up to 7 digits.
The below list is of available serials as of last week. The list is not updated constantly and if you order any low serial option I cannot guarantee you will receive your requested serial; you may be assigned an available serial.
Remaining single digit serial numbers:
Classic Case F77 – SOLD OUT
Classic Case F62 – SOLD OUT
Compact F77 – 1
Compact F62 – 9
Classic Case F77
10
17
19
Classic Case F62
14
40
41
Compact Case F77
1
5
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
17
18
20
21
43
Compact Case F62
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
27
43
44
45
46
47
48
50
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 06 February 2021, 17:48:41
[attach=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 February 2021, 18:40:41
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54706.0
Post by: sam123456 on Sat, 06 February 2021, 20:19:49
Asking for a friend who ordered an an F77 with a set of standard keys and also a set of blue ones and a custom/low serial number last July (note: I'm actually just asking for myself).
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 February 2021, 22:26:24
It may take several months more to get out the rest of the orders. The priority is the standard color pearl/pebble full sets first, and then the other sets (this was noted at the start of offering the additional colors). They have figured out how to ramp up production efficiently and expect production up to about ~180 jigs' worth of sets per day (main set + two accessory sets for example), so it will take several months to finish sublimation of the thousands of key sets and keys ordered so far.
The fastest way to get your keyboard is to request the separate shipping option detailed on the project web site blog, and have other keys or order blank keys to use in the mean time.
Post by: darkcruix on Sun, 07 February 2021, 12:04:13
Hasu's descriptions might be able to help - Hasu made a 4704 converter that uses the original 4704 controllers.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54706.0
Huge thanks!
I have incorporated the info into the Appendix as I feel it is something that people would search and like to have in a single location. The excerpt of the Appendix has been attached here. As always, the Technical Reference is worked on constantly and can be downloaded from: https://www.bucklingspring.com (https://www.bucklingspring.com)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 February 2021, 13:38:48
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 February 2021, 17:03:21
Next up are the earliest low/custom serials with all orders' contents in stock.
Below are photos of the very first keyboards with the sublimated new Model F key sets to go out, along with the inner assemblies moved to other case colors for the purposes of photographing additional keyboard variations.
The key sets came out even better than expected! So good that I have decided to sell off two spare original IBM F107 key sets on eBay in the coming weeks because I believe the new sets are of better quality.
All this week's photos are available in the continually updated imgur album of keyboard variations - a selection of these photos is below. The imgur album has the full res photos: https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
The layouts in the photos include F62 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace, F77 ANSI with 0-9 and Cursor keys, and F77 ANSI with Ins/Del/etc. keys and cursor keys. Case colors shown include Off-White/Beige, Industrial Gray, Black, and Silver/Blue Gray.
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 11 February 2021, 17:39:36
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 February 2021, 19:18:40
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: profanum429 on Thu, 11 February 2021, 19:27:33
Post by: Arcoril on Thu, 11 February 2021, 19:38:02
Also, I added a set of blue industrial keys to my order when I initially placed it. Will that end up delaying my keyboard shipment?
Post by: chiefmatex on Fri, 12 February 2021, 04:01:11
Post by: Arkku on Fri, 12 February 2021, 08:45:20
One question, though: are ISO keysets being printed, or are those left until later?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 February 2021, 12:27:35
chiefmatex - responded to your PM
Post by: chiefmatex on Fri, 12 February 2021, 19:13:06
chiefmatex - responded to your PM
thank you! now corresponding via email/pm. cheers
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 13 February 2021, 19:20:20
This coming week and next week the remaining "all in stock" custom/low serials that did not choose separate shipping (I'll be shipping keyboard+keys etc.) should go out. Total of ~82 keyboards. As noted before, these will go out in sequence of the date that someone's earliest keyboard was ordered.
Then the B stock orders should go out (there are still some B stock key sets remaining if anyone's interested in helping cover the dye sub cost overruns - see the "extra set of keys" store item for details).
After that, assuming there are a minimal number of low serial upgrades of "all in stock" orders if someone wants to get one of the remaining key sets in the first batch, there should be a number of key sets remaining so that the earliest non-custom/low serial key sets can start going out, both those shipping with keyboards as well as just the keys shipping, if the separate shipping option was chosen.
On an unrelated note, below is a report of the number of keyboards each person has ordered, as of a few days ago. For privacy reasons I have hidden the numbers for a number of those who have purchased more than 5 keyboards. It is interesting that quite a few people have ordered 3, 4, 5, and more than 5 keyboards. Some people have told me they purchased the keyboards specifically to keep new in box and to sell down the line, or to resell an "in stock" keyboard locally in another country, in their company's online store.
# KB's # People ordering that quantity of keyboard
>5 #
5 3
4 15
3 27
2 222
1 2107
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2021, 14:22:09
Not sure if IBM had a reference document on this or if there is another source. Any ideas?
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/new-custom-legend-keycaps/
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 February 2021, 22:36:40
We are about 1-2 weeks away from the arrival of the second container ship! It is currently at sea.
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 17 February 2021, 09:34:58
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 17 February 2021, 10:37:52
Shipping update - all of the "all in stock" single digit and custom/low serial 2016 orders that can ship out, have shipped out, including one ordered by Lazy Game Reviews! Next up is 2017. As always please do email me if your address has changed.
We are about 1-2 weeks away from the arrival of the second container ship! It is currently at sea.
Of course Clint would have ordered one.
Post by: nathanchere on Wed, 17 February 2021, 11:35:11
Shipping update - all of the "all in stock" single digit and custom/low serial 2016 orders that can ship out, have shipped out, including one ordered by Lazy Game Reviews! Next up is 2017. As always please do email me if your address has changed.
We are about 1-2 weeks away from the arrival of the second container ship! It is currently at sea.
That's the "early birds" right? :)) :)) :))
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 February 2021, 17:35:10
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the)
Canada
Germany
Australia
Sweden
Netherlands (the)
Japan
Norway
Switzerland
Hong Kong
Finland
France
Singapore
Malaysia
Austria
Korea (the Republic of)
Poland
Czechia
New Zealand
China
Denmark
Spain
Italy
Ireland
Thailand
Romania
Russian Federation (the)
Brazil
Belgium
Taiwan (Province of China)
Saudi Arabia
Slovenia
Bulgaria
Philippines (the)
Luxembourg
Israel
Mexico
Chile
Argentina
Estonia
Viet Nam
Hungary
Croatia
Oman
Serbia
Peru
India
Turkey
South Africa
Iceland
Post by: iMav on Sat, 20 February 2021, 17:22:45
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 20 February 2021, 17:57:25
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 February 2021, 21:14:34
Below are photos of the standard US ANSI layout, and the Apple/Mac Command/Option 6 key sets (the factory sent the US, Mac 6 key, and HHKB 6 key sets as part of the first small batch).
These are the first photos of all these variations with the new Model F caps installed.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
Post by: jterp7 on Mon, 22 February 2021, 21:23:02
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 February 2021, 22:45:04
jterp7 the factory is working as quickly as possible to help finish up so I can get out the rest of the orders.
Post by: euphxenos on Tue, 23 February 2021, 00:04:52
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 February 2021, 00:37:21
As noted before, the project has the funds to see every order through, including dye sublimation of the keys.
So far more than 700 keyboards have shipped and if anyone did not want to wait for the keys they ordered, their keyboard could have been mailed early with the separate shipping option introduced last year, if their keyboard was one of the models I listed as in stock (right now essentially all classic case models are still in stock, except black/True Red/Silver Gray F62 and True Red F77).
This separate shipping option is still available. Your keyboard can certainly go out in the next couple weeks if you wanted the separate shipping option (anyone interested, feel free to discuss with me over email/PM).
Post by: gbchk on Tue, 23 February 2021, 10:41:17
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 February 2021, 11:08:39
The remaining US ANSI key sets, other language/color sets, specialty sets (like Industrial SSK 12 key sets), and extra keys are all going to be made at the factory starting soon after their return later this month from Chinese New Year break. As noted earlier, they expect production lead times to be about two months to finish the remaining keys.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 25 February 2021, 12:34:48
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: profanum429 on Thu, 25 February 2021, 23:15:56
(https://i.imgur.com/RJNucqG.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 03 March 2021, 10:27:31
Includes a note on the next batch of sublimated keys as well as a second container shipment update:
The second container ship arrived at port and delivery is being arranged for some point in the next week or so. Container shipping demand has skyrocketed in recent months, along with delays. Normally shipping is about 45-55 days but it’s much longer nowadays – a little over three months including shipping and processing time, making arrangements, etc.
I have been preparing to send out all of the “all in stock” keyboards from the second container shipment (first the custom/low serials and then the remaining all in stock orders).
Post by: darkcruix on Wed, 03 March 2021, 16:20:44
The printing is soooo sharp and the print is .... Wow
Post by: dc_in_sf on Thu, 04 March 2021, 11:47:20
I have received the keycap kit as well. Except the Option/Alt Key and the Num-Pad is now original!!! And they feel so smooth... Wow... Especially the Shift keys are a world apart from the Model M variants I had before.
The printing is soooo sharp and the print is .... Wow
What are the LED's for? Is there support on the controller for LEDs?
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 04 March 2021, 11:52:36
Post by: dc_in_sf on Thu, 04 March 2021, 12:07:11
Absolutely - have a look at the Technical Manual at https://www.bucklingspring.com (https://www.bucklingspring.com). In section 4 (4.11 Expansion Header) you'll find all details. In my case I have it configured to show me the different layers.
Thanks!
I do like have LEDs available for showing layer state, may have to look at doing this mod.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 08 March 2021, 18:24:58
I saw the video and have included my replies below as well as in the YouTube comments section.
Do people prefer Fn between Left Ctrl and Left Alt? I use the GUI key a lot in order to open programs.
Also someone mentioned the ability to have more than one layout programmed with QMK, in order to switch layouts. Is that something that's easy to do? Wondering if I could program one as the default (say if someone chooses 0-9 and cursor keys) and then with a key combination the user can switch to the layout with the Ins/Del/etc. right side block.
My comments below:
I thought I'd reply with some of my thoughts on the points in the video.
As a general note I am pretty open to feedback from everyone - just send over a message! The goal of the project is to make the Model F experience as fun as possible, despite the quirks of setting up and using the new or original Model F keyboards.
Industrial Gray color - IBM colors seemed to vary slightly over time. The IBM Industrial Gray color selected for the project is matched to an original IBM Industrial SSK, part 1395682 - the case bottom was sent to the factory so they could custom mix the color since an exact Pantone type match could not be found. There are other IBM Industrial Gray colors that are less olive and more neutral gray, including an IBM Industrial Gray XT type keyboard. I would describe the Industrial SSK gray as a gray-green-tan type color.
Yep you certainly deserve serial 0 thanks to your support of the project - the serials start at 0 for each of the keyboard models. You have the first production serial! I am glad that this keyboard will be in your rotation of keyboards, even if it is not a daily driver!
Some springs not seated properly during the unboxing: unfortunately sometimes a few springs move out of place as these keyboards are bounced around in shipping - hope it did not take too much time for you to adjust the Enter key and space bar. My recommendation to everyone is to check out the project manual for the key installation video (of which a quick clip was shown in your video). Holding the keyboard vertically, space bar end up is the quickest way to successfully re-seat any of the keys.
Offline/standalone QMK configuration program - seems like a good idea. Hopefully the QMK folks can consider it.
The old xwhatsit firmware was problematic for a small but significant number of folks so we switched to QMK. QMK is currently in beta but will hopefully move to the main project soon.
Longwinded/not too clear documentation - yes you are correct! Hoping to improve this.
Keyboard feet - the stick on or screw on feet options allow for up to a 1 inch rise similar to the height of the other Model F keyboards, with other options for 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, and 1/2 inch. Most people only ask for the cork but people can pick another set for free if they'd like - let me know if you wanted any of the other feet and I'll mail them to you.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
Regarding the default layout programming - there are a lot of good suggestions for better placement of the Fn key from where I put it in the default. Some people put it in the blank key to the left of the Up cursor key. I see how between Ctrl and Alt is also good to consider for certain key combinations with the left hand.
Regarding lack of additional keys for media editing and other types of work - agreed that the compact Model F keyboards are best for certain tasks but not for all tasks. I believe they are best for writing/typing, including long typing/programming sessions, and not as strong for gaming and work on other media.
Regarding outdated Q&A forum posts - thanks for letting me know about this. I just cleaned up some of the old Q&A posts related to the older stuff - hope this improves things. If anyone sees anything that's out of date I always appreciate a heads up so I can update it.
Post by: dc_in_sf on Mon, 08 March 2021, 18:51:31
The Lazy Game Reviews video has been posted!
I saw the video and have included my replies below as well as in the YouTube comments section.
Do people prefer Fn between Left Ctrl and Left Alt? I use the GUI key a lot in order to open programs.
Also someone mentioned the ability to have more than one layout programmed with QMK, in order to switch layouts. Is that something that's easy to do? Wondering if I could program one as the default (say if someone chooses 0-9 and cursor keys) and then with a key combination the user can switch to the layout with the Ins/Del/etc. right side block.
My comments below:
I thought I'd reply with some of my thoughts on the points in the video.
As a general note I am pretty open to feedback from everyone - just send over a message! The goal of the project is to make the Model F experience as fun as possible, despite the quirks of setting up and using the new or original Model F keyboards.
Industrial Gray color - IBM colors seemed to vary slightly over time. The IBM Industrial Gray color selected for the project is matched to an original IBM Industrial SSK, part 1395682 - the case bottom was sent to the factory so they could custom mix the color since an exact Pantone type match could not be found. There are other IBM Industrial Gray colors that are less olive and more neutral gray, including an IBM Industrial Gray XT type keyboard. I would describe the Industrial SSK gray as a gray-green-tan type color.
Yep you certainly deserve serial 0 thanks to your support of the project - the serials start at 0 for each of the keyboard models. You have the first production serial! I am glad that this keyboard will be in your rotation of keyboards, even if it is not a daily driver!
Some springs not seated properly during the unboxing: unfortunately sometimes a few springs move out of place as these keyboards are bounced around in shipping - hope it did not take too much time for you to adjust the Enter key and space bar. My recommendation to everyone is to check out the project manual for the key installation video (of which a quick clip was shown in your video). Holding the keyboard vertically, space bar end up is the quickest way to successfully re-seat any of the keys.
Offline/standalone QMK configuration program - seems like a good idea. Hopefully the QMK folks can consider it.
The old xwhatsit firmware was problematic for a small but significant number of folks so we switched to QMK. QMK is currently in beta but will hopefully move to the main project soon.
Longwinded/not too clear documentation - yes you are correct! Hoping to improve this.
Keyboard feet - the stick on or screw on feet options allow for up to a 1 inch rise similar to the height of the other Model F keyboards, with other options for 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, and 1/2 inch. Most people only ask for the cork but people can pick another set for free if they'd like - let me know if you wanted any of the other feet and I'll mail them to you.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
Regarding the default layout programming - there are a lot of good suggestions for better placement of the Fn key from where I put it in the default. Some people put it in the blank key to the left of the Up cursor key. I see how between Ctrl and Alt is also good to consider for certain key combinations with the left hand.
Regarding lack of additional keys for media editing and other types of work - agreed that the compact Model F keyboards are best for certain tasks but not for all tasks. I believe they are best for writing/typing, including long typing/programming sessions, and not as strong for gaming and work on other media.
Regarding outdated Q&A forum posts - thanks for letting me know about this. I just cleaned up some of the old Q&A posts related to the older stuff - hope this improves things. If anyone sees anything that's out of date I always appreciate a heads up so I can update it.
Interesting, the reviewer is definitely coming from a different place than many folk in the Mech KB community. The fact that the board had QMK support is what sold me on it in the end, but I can see how it is not the easiest thing to use if you are not deep into that aspect hobby.
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 08 March 2021, 20:20:15
Below are photos of the mounting hardware for the solenoids, along with photos showing the process to adjust the solenoid throw distance and securely mount the solenoid in any classic case (F62 or F77). These are included for free by default with all orders of solenoids - no need to request it.
Also included are two nylon washers so as to protect the case finish from the mounting screw. One washer goes between the top of the screw and the bottom of the case, and the other washer goes inside the case, between the case and the solenoid.
Post by: audax989 on Tue, 09 March 2021, 05:17:14
Update on solenoids:
Below are photos of the mounting hardware for the solenoids, along with photos showing the process to adjust the solenoid throw distance and securely mount the solenoid in any classic case (F62 or F77). These are included for free by default with all orders of solenoids - no need to request it.
Also included are two nylon washers so as to protect the case finish from the mounting screw. One washer goes between the top of the screw and the bottom of the case, and the other washer goes inside the case, between the case and the solenoid.
That's awesome!
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 09 March 2021, 07:59:43
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 March 2021, 10:57:16
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4786112
Post by: dc_in_sf on Tue, 09 March 2021, 11:18:21
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
These are my notes:
1. Need to override matrix.c error check for bootmagic_enable
2. Need to change raw_hid_receive to raw_hid_receive_kb in xwhatsit/util_comm.c
You also need to make your own JSON for the keyboard which is a bit of pain since the matrix is all over the place and then manually load it in VIA in order to use the configurator (attached mine, depending on your layout you may need to mod it).
Post by: darkcruix on Tue, 09 March 2021, 15:45:22
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
These are my notes:
1. Need to override matrix.c error check for bootmagic_enable
2. Need to change raw_hid_receive to raw_hid_receive_kb in xwhatsit/util_comm.c
You also need to make your own JSON for the keyboard which is a bit of pain since the matrix is all over the place and then manually load it in VIA in order to use the configurator (attached mine, depending on your layout you may need to mod it).
Works like a treat - here is my JSON for the F77-SplitRightShift_SplitBackspace (more to come)
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 10 March 2021, 13:06:31
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 March 2021, 15:15:30
The second container shipment has arrived!
Important note: please do not ask when your keyboard is going out or about separate shipping. Hoping to continue shipping out everyone's orders over the coming months. Sorry I can't be more specific just yet or let anyone know exactly where they are in the queue. So far more than 800 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped.
The separate shipping option is no longer available as there is no more down time waiting for the keys.
I expect to get out of the way quickly a few dozen orders for people not ordering keys or keyboards and who just ordered solenoids, solenoid drivers, beamspring controllers, and F122/F107/PC AT foam and then proceed with the in stock low serials and the rest of the queue generally in order of when the order was placed, oldest going out first.
If we are between printed key batches I'll be sending out more of the unprinted keys. The factory has installed the unprinted keys to the keyboards and currently there are extras of the keyboards with installed unprinted black and pearl/pebble keys if anyone's interested in switching to unprinted.
The below photos show all new keyboards that arrived in the current container shipment (none from the last batch in these photos) and show a peek inside lots of the compact case boxes. The bottom photo shows one of the boxes of solenoids and solenoid drivers packed and ready to go.
This time I asked the factory to label each box with the variation number (100+ variations in total!) so that will save me a couple weeks of opening up each box to determine the variation as I needed to do last time. All the keyboards are jumbled so I still need to organize and index their locations so I know where to find each variation.
Also arriving in this batch are unprinted blue and dark gray key sets. Additional black sets will be shipped with the printed keys in the coming weeks.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: sam123456 on Thu, 11 March 2021, 23:47:31
Post by: darkcruix on Fri, 12 March 2021, 15:55:08
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
These are my notes:
1. Need to override matrix.c error check for bootmagic_enable
2. Need to change raw_hid_receive to raw_hid_receive_kb in xwhatsit/util_comm.c
You also need to make your own JSON for the keyboard which is a bit of pain since the matrix is all over the place and then manually load it in VIA in order to use the configurator (attached mine, depending on your layout you may need to mod it).
Works like a treat - here is my JSON for the F77-SplitRightShift_SplitBackspace (more to come)
For those who want to test Via on a F77 (ANSI with either split rights shift and/or split backspace), find attached a zip file that contains a QMK firmware for it with JSON and little guide.
Warning: This is only a test version and won't work with pandrew's Util app.
The Via Application can be downloaded from here: https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases/tag/v1.3.1 (https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases/tag/v1.3.1)
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Gemini on Sat, 13 March 2021, 20:11:16
Like this colour I love: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/r6iKD_nXEu8/maxresdefault.jpg
but which colour is it?? :/
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 13 March 2021, 20:30:15
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 March 2021, 17:06:15
Some very important steps for Via: one of the first steps to click settings, check "shown design tab" and allow remapping via keyboard.
And also you have to load the JSON file before the keyboard is detected, otherwise the home screen will stay on searching for devices.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 15 March 2021, 11:45:38
350 full ANSI US key sets are included in this batch.
Now they will have sent me enough key sets for the time being so that I am now the bottleneck in terms of testing and mailing out each keyboard! As I noted last week, it's going to take me probably between several months and the rest of the year to mail out all the keyboards and there is no more separate shipping or other early requests. The only way to prioritize is with the custom/low serial option.
Post by: blur410 on Mon, 15 March 2021, 12:37:13
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Mon, 15 March 2021, 13:22:45
The factory has air mailed the next batch of sublimated keys! Still they are all US ANSI regular printed key sets, HHKB 6 key sets, and Mac sets for now.
350 full ANSI US key sets are included in this batch.
Now they will have sent me enough key sets for the time being so that I am now the bottleneck in terms of testing and mailing out each keyboard! As I noted last week, it's going to take me probably between several months and the rest of the year to mail out all the keyboards and there is no more separate shipping or other early requests. The only way to prioritize is with the custom/low serial option.
Curious if this will be the longest GH GB to be completed (plenty left incomplete). It’ll be the end of an era the day the title gets modified.
Post by: macclack on Tue, 16 March 2021, 11:44:57
Curious if this will be the longest GH GB to be completed (plenty left incomplete). It’ll be the end of an era the day the title gets modified.
Or possibly the Matias 60%?
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Tue, 16 March 2021, 12:10:53
Curious if this will be the longest GH GB to be completed (plenty left incomplete). It’ll be the end of an era the day the title gets modified.
Or possibly the Matias 60%?
Aye that seems to be longer with intent to fulfill. Love me a good read, a bit short at 4 pages though :p
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 March 2021, 10:29:17
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Post by: darkcruix on Wed, 17 March 2021, 10:49:22
Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Via is still in testing phase, but for those who want to give it a try, here is the link for the download of a firmware for F77 or F62, doc, and layout file: https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/ (https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/)
Post by: Gemini on Wed, 17 March 2021, 17:55:32
Post by: dc_in_sf on Wed, 17 March 2021, 19:13:18
Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Via is still in testing phase, but for those who want to give it a try, here is the link for the download of a firmware for F77 or F62, doc, and layout file: https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/ (https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/)
There are some important things to know about VIA and the F77
There are two main ways with stock VIA to get it to ignore a key map stored in EEPROM
1. Use Bootmagic lite to reset the keyboard, VIA enabled firmware will then ignore the currently stored keymap
2. flash the KB with a version of VIA firmware that was compiled on a different day (VIA compares the FW date with a value stored in EEPROM)
The issue with the F77 is that you can't use bootmagic because the keyboard calibration routine that runs on powerup will mean that a held key is not detected when the control gets to the bootmagic routine.
So if you are using VIA on the F77, and the keymap becomes corrupt in some way (and e.g. causes the FW to crash), then your recovery choice is to compile a new version of VIA and flash it in yourself. Flashing in a regular QMK build *will not* clear the EEPROM, when you go back to your VIA FW the same key map will still be there. Non QMK FW may or may not fix it depending on whether it actually changes the EEPROM.
pandrew has a utility that in theory can clear the EEPROM, but it uses the same communication channel as VIA, so to use it will likely have to flash in a non VIA FW to make it work.
It is unknown how much of problem not being able to clear the EEPROM is. I have had no issues with any of my VIA enabled keyboards to date, so possibly this is a non issue, but the VIA folk thought it was important enough to enforce Bootmagic lite in VIA builds.
My take, use it, by just be warned you may have to muck around a bit more to recover a messed up keymap :-)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 March 2021, 19:39:48
I have tallied the extra keys and submitted these keys to the factory, along with the finalized legend designs from forum member Zed. During this process I came across some old files describing some of the IBM Key legends and key descriptions for the key functions on their keyboards - hope it might be of interest. I had no idea what many of these keys actually did on the old terminals!
Copied below are pages from the IBM 3179 (F122 keyboard)
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[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
IBM 3270 Operations Guide 1972, pages 31-47 - see this link for details of the following keys and more
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/3270/GA27-2742-1_Operators_Guide_for_IBM_3270_Information_DIsplay_Systems_Jul72.pdf
|← Back Tab
CLEAR
ERASE INPUT
ERASE EOF (End of Field)
TEST REQ
RESET
DUP
FIELD MARK
PA1 and PA2
INS MODE
DEL
PF1-PF12
NUMERIC (Shift)
ALPHA
IBM 3270 Oct 1988 revision (incl Unsaver 3290 Keyboard), starting with page 5-3 - see this link for details of the following keys and more
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/3270/GA27-2739-22_3270_Information_Display_System_Introduction_Oct88.pdf
"General Controls" (Left side of keyboard)
Attention key
Copy key
Cursor Select key
Doc On/Off
Enlarge
Erasing controls-Clear, Erase Input, and Erase to End of Field keys
Extended Select Shift
Print key
Record and Play keys
Rule key
Setup Mode
System Request key
Work Station Control Mode
o<->O Zoom
Screen Management, Program Access, and Editing Controls
Note: The following functions are not available on all keyboards.
Backspace erase
Change Screen key
Cursor Home key
Delete Word key
Double-Speed Cursor, Left and Right keys
Duplicate key
Field Mark key
Insert and Delete keys
Jump Partition (3290)
Jump Screen
Left and Right Cursor keys
Next Word key
Previous Word key
Program Access keys (PA1, PA2, PA3)
Selectable Field Tab key
Up and Down Cursor keys
3174 Entry Assist
Program Function and Attribute Selection Controls
Note: The following functions are not available on all keyboards.
Attribute Select keys
Cursor Appearance keys, Alternate Cursor and Cursor Blink
Graphic Cursor ( + Cr) keys
Program Function keys, PF1 through PF24
IBM 3179 (one terminal used with F122 keyboards), page 6 onwards
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3179/GA18-2180-1_3179_Color_Display_Station_Operator_Reference_and_Problem_Solving_Guide_Sep84.pdf
(relevant pages are copied above)
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 18 March 2021, 05:53:06
Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Via is still in testing phase, but for those who want to give it a try, here is the link for the download of a firmware for F77 or F62, doc, and layout file: https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/ (https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/)
There are some important things to know about VIA and the F77
There are two main ways with stock VIA to get it to ignore a key map stored in EEPROM
1. Use Bootmagic lite to reset the keyboard, VIA enabled firmware will then ignore the currently stored keymap
2. flash the KB with a version of VIA firmware that was compiled on a different day (VIA compares the FW date with a value stored in EEPROM)
The issue with the F77 is that you can't use bootmagic because the keyboard calibration routine that runs on powerup will mean that a held key is not detected when the control gets to the bootmagic routine.
So if you are using VIA on the F77, and the keymap becomes corrupt in some way (and e.g. causes the FW to crash), then your recovery choice is to compile a new version of VIA and flash it in yourself. Flashing in a regular QMK build *will not* clear the EEPROM, when you go back to your VIA FW the same key map will still be there. Non QMK FW may or may not fix it depending on whether it actually changes the EEPROM.
pandrew has a utility that in theory can clear the EEPROM, but it uses the same communication channel as VIA, so to use it will likely have to flash in a non VIA FW to make it work.
It is unknown how much of problem not being able to clear the EEPROM is. I have had no issues with any of my VIA enabled keyboards to date, so possibly this is a non issue, but the VIA folk thought it was important enough to enforce Bootmagic lite in VIA builds.
My take, use it, by just be warned you may have to muck around a bit more to recover a messed up keymap :-)
Thanks for the additional info!
I have added a eeprom_eraser.hex in the latest version on www.bucklingspring.com (http://www.bucklingspring.com) which will take care of the issue with by completely filling the flash chip with zeros. It is also described in the doc I have added to the zip.
I am using a unconventional firmware on my system and had issues with some keys being properly recognized, but the eraser beautifully solved the issue. I was still able to hit Fn+Space+R, otherwise I would have needed to short the program jumper on the controller.
So, there is a slight risk with someone having a broken key mapping to require extra legwork to re-flash it.
Post by: Fweedum on Thu, 18 March 2021, 11:38:37
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 18 March 2021, 11:59:10
Will it be possible to turn a solenoid off and on through VIA, or is that functionality not possible through the software?
I have it set-up and it is working. You just need to choose "Any" and then type e.g. HPT_TOG or any of the other QMK options:
| Name | Description |
|-----------|-------------------------------------------------------|
|`HPT_ON` | Turn haptic feedback on |
|`HPT_OFF` | Turn haptic feedback on |
|`HPT_TOG` | Toggle haptic feedback on/off |
|`HPT_RST` | Reset haptic feedback config to default |
|`HPT_FBK` | Toggle feedback to occur on keypress, release or both |
|`HPT_BUZ` | Toggle solenoid buzz on/off |
|`HPT_MODI` | Go to next DRV2605L waveform |
|`HPT_MODD` | Go to previous DRV2605L waveform |
|`HPT_CONT` | Toggle continuous haptic mode on/off |
|`HPT_CONI` | Increase DRV2605L continous haptic strength |
|`HPT_COND` | Decrease DRV2605L continous haptic strength |
|`HPT_DWLI` | Increase Solenoid dwell time |
|`HPT_DWLD` | Decrease Solenoid dwell time |
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 March 2021, 16:29:26
I tried this on the pandrew QMK configurator but with the HPT_BUZ and the solenoid toggle worked. The solenoid was by default set on.
Also the solenoid was activated even with pressing the Fn keys - I thought pressing the modifier keys and Fn keys are not supposed to activate the solenoid?
Post by: blur410 on Fri, 19 March 2021, 14:02:40
On another note, is there any plan or deadline to take the QMK out of the closed beta state and bring it into QMK proper?
Post by: dc_in_sf on Fri, 19 March 2021, 14:28:33
Still trying to figure out how to use QMK on my board, is it basically just like any other QMK board after configuring in the link from the google doc? Or is there a particular procedure for updating? Also wondering if the default factory keybinds included a reset somewhere deep in a layer. Been about 6 months since I've used QMK so I'm a bit rusty and have no idea what VIA is or does beyond that its a local software configurator. Also which of the models contained in the beta corresponds to the new model f62 with the most basic pcb layout? It would be cool if you did a quick video walkthrough as a part of the online manual.
On another note, is there any plan or deadline to take the QMK out of the closed beta state and bring it into QMK proper?
If you grab the download from darkcruix and use his build, he has a handy cheatsheet. Because this is not an official VIA build you have to side load the JSON for the layout rather than having VIA auto detect it. I think darkcruix has the JSON to support all the layouts for the F62/F77 (The JSON I posted earlier doesn't have the support for the split keys because I am lazy).
If you want to build your own VIA build in QMK you'll have to jump through a few hoops. You need to enable VIA in the make file, and then modify a couple of the source files to make them work with VIA (there are notes further up the thread) and generate a layout JSON (or better steal the ones darkcruix posted), but honestly a pre-build VIA firmware should work unless you want to do the sort of custom things in QMK that would require you to know how to do all this already :)
Post by: blur410 on Fri, 19 March 2021, 14:38:42
Post by: dc_in_sf on Fri, 19 March 2021, 17:25:48
I mean if the original QMK was easy enough for an ape like me to use, I would hope that VIA wouldn't force me to leap through any more hoops. If it is faster and easier to adjust the layout with VIA that normal QMK then I'd consider using it.
VIA is really designed so you don't need to know anything about QMK or how to install a QMK build environment.
The idea is your board comes pre-installed with VIA firmware (or worst case you download the firmware and QMK toolbox and manually flash it), and then you only need the VIA tool to do all your layouts.
I'm comfortable enough with using QMK that I didn't really rush to play with VIA, but ultimately the selling point for me (and why I am converting all my boards to VIA based FW) is the ability to dynamically load string macros. This has been a massive productivity enhancement for me but ymmv.
Now I'm custom building all my boards firmware since I have a couple of things I like that can't be done in stock VIA (lighting changes on layer change, some fancy tap/hold keys), but for a lot of users, your entire config can easily be done in VIA.
Really the only hard thing about using VIA with an unsupported board is mapping the layout matrix into the JSON, and once you do it once, it is pretty easy (if boring). The F77/F62 are slightly trickier because the beta QMK support was not designed with VIA in mind so you have to workaround some items (bootmagic and raw hid support) but it is not a big deal.
Post by: CapnCrunch53 on Fri, 19 March 2021, 18:34:31
Post by: blur410 on Sat, 20 March 2021, 01:10:29
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 20 March 2021, 03:17:31
I mean I'm dumb, has someone done a video guide for VIA?
The PDF in the download is only 3 or 4 pages - mostly screenshots.
Have a look at the PDF and if you have questions, just let me know.
Post by: darkcruix on Sat, 20 March 2021, 03:22:53
I just flashed my F62 with the VIA firmware because I desired the ability to do string macros without having to manually compile QMK. And I have to say, it was incredibly easy to install, and even easier to configure. Now I have custom macros for Discord commands which I think would've taken a lot longer to implement in QMK.
Thanks for the feedback. I also like it that you can make adjustments on the fly. Changing and adding macros are the thing that made the difference for me also. At work I switch between projects quite frequently and having the 4 or 5 most used things in a macro really makes all the difference.
Post by: Arkku on Sat, 20 March 2021, 09:30:55
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 March 2021, 11:49:57
Key texture - the key top is more textured on purpose! Keys from newer molds that haven't seen much usage (like the new molds for this project) as well as keycaps that haven't seen much usage have a fresher texture. My NIB Model F's have far more key texture than my other (used) Model F keyboards from around the same time. Once millions of shots have been made from the molds the texture wears down, but the factory can re-texture the tops every now and then as part of maintaining the molds.
The keys are a replica of the one piece F122 and XT originals in my collection. IBM's keycaps varied over the years and I have interestingly found the later production keycaps (including those on many F107s) to be not as good as the 1983-1985 period IBM originals.
IBM's later 4704 and other Model F caps had noticeably different fonts and had looser quality control - thinner in stroke, more condensed, and less nice looking in my opinion. The project's goal for the aspect of dye sublimation was XT quality fonts, not reproductions of the 4704 fonts (even though the rest of the project is 4704 repro!).
The filled in hole inside the key is possibly a later design by IBM compared to the hole. (The hole is for the ejector pin of the mold!) The earliest keys in my collection have a hole for the most part, as well as the 4 circular designs on the bottom edges as shown, so I put it there. IBM's key designs varied across production lines, across time, and possibly across their different manufacturing facilities.
They probably stopped that design because it puts a lot of stress on the one ejector pin during injection molding. During injection molding of the keys, one of the ejector pins of the most-used type of key (1U) actually broke and needed to be repaired.
In summary, all of the legends are accurate to the 1984 F122 and XT caps in my collection and the keycap part tolerances are within my required +/- 0.1 to 0.2 mm. Forum member Zed did an excellent job recreating the fonts exactly from high resolution scans I sent over.
Regarding the stabilizer inserts, agreed it is best to use the project inserts with project keys and non-project inserts with the non-project keys. The inserts are also more difficult to remove. As many of you probably know, given PBT being more difficult to work with due to shrinkage, getting the PBT parts just right so there is not too little, and not too much space between the key post and inside of the stabilizer insert proved very difficult a few years back, but getting the insert working with the new project keys was the priority over getting a looser fit like the originals.
The key legends are definitely different from even some contemporary IBM keys on other keyboards.
Here is a 2016 scan of my originals done on an Epson V700. Keys sourced from a 6110344 F122 from mid-1984 and an XT from around the same time. Also some Model M keys are in the scan; they were thickened up and redesigned a bit to match more consistently with F keys.
Below that is a scan of the new reproduction keys on the same scanner. Pardon the colors being a bit off in my old scan.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: LightningXI on Tue, 23 March 2021, 08:43:32
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 25 March 2021, 21:02:29
Some solenoid settings may result in a lower sound, or no sound coming from your solenoid. This video compares the sound with two different solenoid settings. With maximum throw, extend 20ms, retract 30ms, you get a full volume solenoid click sound. With extend reduced to 15ms, retract 30ms, you get a reduced volume solenoid sound. You can also adjust the physical solenoid settings with the two screws found on the solenoid - another solenoid video in this channel discusses how to physically install and adjust the solenoid in your keyboard.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 April 2021, 15:13:58
Via is a great way to be able to edit your Model F keyboard layout using a downloadable program and without having to flash the firmware with each layout change.
If anyone wants to try it out please do share some feedback!
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Fri, 02 April 2021, 00:37:54
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 April 2021, 09:56:34
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 04 April 2021, 22:45:04
The factory reports that so far about 1,800 US regular pearl/pebble key sets have been produced, as well as a number of the HHKB and Mac sets. The factory is on schedule to finish up the sublimation in the next two months.
The first international artwork has been completed by Zed - it is the UK set (the next most popular set by order quantity) - that's probably the next set they will work on, along with producing some sample sets of Industrial SSK blue as well as some dark gray sets.
Post by: zacheadams on Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:15:46
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 07 April 2021, 13:02:24
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 09 April 2021, 12:03:55
There were some reports of the new solenoids not operating under full power - this is due to the default QMK settings that require adjustment.
For the new solenoids, since they are far beefier than the originals, they need a little more dwell time to actuate to the full force and full volume. Examples of different dwell settings and the sounds for each can be found in my YouTube video below.
My recommendation is to set the dwell time to 20 ms to 30 ms.
To do this, go into Via or the QMK configurator and per pandrew: "map the HPT_DWLI (and HPT_DWLD) keycodes into their keymap, and press HPT_DWLI 16 times, to get it to 20 ms." (the default setting is 4ms). I will be doing this with the firmware loaded onto each keyboard going forward.
There is a retract setting for xwhatsit firmware that does not exist in QMK - for xwhatsit firmware the important thing is to set the retract to longer than the extend time, say 30ms to 40ms. If you do not do this, the solenoid may not function properly. Per pandrew: "The current QMK implementation doesn't have a retract time (it's effectively zero), and can't currently be adjusted."
Post by: diazel on Fri, 09 April 2021, 13:15:09
Solenoid configuration - some helpful advice from pandrew.
There were some reports of the new solenoids not operating under full power - this is due to the default QMK settings that require adjustment...
Does that mean the solenoids are shipping now?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 09 April 2021, 13:18:49
As a general note for everyone, I am still working on mailing out everyone's orders and cannot estimate where everyone is in the line or how long it will take for someone's order to ship.
Post by: diazel on Fri, 09 April 2021, 13:59:54
Yes, solenoids and solenoid drivers started shipping en masse last month, as the second container shipment arrived last month. Along with beamspring controllers too!
As a general note for everyone, I am still working on mailing out everyone's orders and cannot estimate where everyone is in the line or how long it will take for someone's order to ship.
Would that include the blue printed keycap sets as well by chance? ::optimistically crosses fingers::
Post by: blur410 on Sat, 10 April 2021, 08:50:43
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 11 April 2021, 15:50:49
Keyboards going out starting this week will use the latest QMK firmware (attached). Files are also available on the project web site - About - Code page.
The instructions from pandrew were very helpful but for a beginner such as myself, I needed step by step instructions which I have updated below. This will allow those with little to know programming knowledge to adjust the settings in QMK that cannot be adjusted from the QMK configurator GUI web site.
At the bottom of this post you can download my latest JSON files and the latest firmware, which uses the current QMK branch as of today, with the above-mentioned changes, and with pandrew's Model F-specific additions to QMK that have made all of this possible.
Once again much thanks to pandrew and darkcruix for their outstanding work on QMK and Via. As a note the attached firmware is not Via compatible but it can be made compatible.
To customize Via firmware beyond layout customizations (for example, to make all the above changes), please contact darkcruix, who put together a document listing changes in the code to get the firmware working with Via. You currently lose the ability to diagnose the controller in pandrew's QMK utility if you use Via firmware. To just have Via with the default settings that cannot be changed in the Via program, please refer to darkcruix's post where you can download the Via hex file and start customizing from there without having to set up linux: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=482036#p482036
new procedure from scratch Ubuntu install:
download and install Ubuntu in a Virtual Machine
open Terminal program and enter one line at a time:
sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade -y
sudo apt install python3-pip
sudo python3 -m pip install qmk
echo "PATH=$PATH:$HOME/.local/bin" >> ../.bashrc
sudo apt install git
qmk setup
git clone [insert URL here - contact pandrew on Deskthority for access to pandrew's git project]
do this action-not a command in terminal
copy keyboards/xwhatsit folder to qmk_firmware/keyboards folder
delete everything in the ubuntu home folder except the QMK_firmware and desktop directories - the xwhatsit folder has all the changes in QMK
code changes to make
config.h in the folder of the keyboard you want to update - in my case, keyboards/xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass
lines 286-287
#define SOLENOID_DEFAULT_DWELL 20
#define SOLENOID_MIN_DWELL 20
replace haptic.c file in qmk_firmware/drivers/haptic folder with darkcruix's updated file to allow customization of which keys trigger the solenoid (modifier keys by default will not trigger the solenoid unless you change the below line to #define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS 0):
https://github.com/darkcruix/qmk_firmware/blob/master/drivers/haptic/haptic.c
add to end of file - new line:
#define HAPTIC_EXCLUSION_KEYS 1
in rules.mk:
line 40:
NKRO_ENABLE = yes # USB Nkey Rollover
add this line at bottom:
LTO_ENABLE = yes # Link Time Optimization - reduces file size
put the json file with your custom layout (the file you created in QMK configurator) in the root of the Home folder
command to set the keyboard - can change F77 to F62 in this example if you have an F62:
qmk config user.keyboard=xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass
qmk compile "../1.json"
it will give a random name and place the file in the root qmk_firmware folder - not the name of the json file, so if compiling multiple layouts, rename the newly created hex file before proceeding to compile the next layout
../ means go up one folder from qmk_firmware folder
examples:
qmk config user.keyboard=xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f77/wcass
qmk compile "../F77_-_ANSI-ISO_-_0-9.json"
qmk compile "../F77_-_ANSI-ISO_-_PrintScr.json"
qmk compile "../F77_-_HHKB_2U_backspace_-_0-9.json"
qmk compile "../F77_-_HHKB_2U_backspace_-_PrintScr.json"
qmk compile "../F77_-_HHKB_split_backspace_-_0-9.json"
qmk compile "../F77_-_HHKB_split_backspace_-_PrintScr.json"
qmk compile "../F77_JIS_-_PrintScr_-_need_to_do_0-9_layout_and_add_function_layer.json"
qmk compile "../zF77_-_HHKB_split_backspace,_everything_else_ANSI_-_0-9.json"
qmk compile "../zF77_-_HHKB_split_backspace,_everything_else_ANSI_-_PrintScr.json"
qmk compile "../zF77_-_HHKB_Split_Shift,_everything_else_ANSI_-_0-9.json"
qmk compile "../zF77_-_HHKB_Split_Shift,_everything_else_ANSI_-_PrintScr.json"
to then switch to compiling f62's:
qmk config user.keyboard=xwhatsit/brand_new_model_f/f62/wcass
qmk compile "../F62_-_ANSI-ISO_-_Regular_2U_or_Split_Backspace.json"
qmk compile "../F62_-_HHKB_-_Regular_2U_Backspace.json"
qmk compile "../F62_-_HHKB_-_Split_Backspace.json"
qmk compile "../zF62_HHKB_split_right_shift_only,_everything_else_ANSI.json"
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 14 April 2021, 16:06:57
Please follow darkcruix's post for more details on setting up Via:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=482408#p482408
Post by: blur410 on Wed, 14 April 2021, 16:36:30
Also for ordering extra cases, are there still plenty available?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 14 April 2021, 17:30:27
Post by: blur410 on Thu, 15 April 2021, 05:29:26
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 15 April 2021, 15:41:52
Hold down the keys Fn+Spacebar+
T-->Toggle the Solenoid On/Off Any key HPT_TOG
+= Increase Solenoid dwell time HPT_DWLI
-_ Decrease Solenoid dwell time HPT_DWLD
E-->EEPROM Reset (erases all settings like if you adjusted a dwell time for solenoid)
R-->Reset (enter bootloader)
D-->Debug
Command keys: hold Left Shift + Right Shift +
B-->Enter Bootloader
N-->Toggle N-Key Rollover (NKRO) (off by default to maximize compatibility)
Others: https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/advanced-keycodes/feature_command
NKRO note as relayed to me:
Why there is not NKRO by default: When the USB Human Interface Device protocol was designed, they had a limit of 6 keys in there. This is the minimum all systems agree on (including BIOS etc.). NKRO is not standardized and there is a good chance, the keyboard doesn't work in certain circumstances. In fact, on a Mac you can't get into the recovery mode or NVRAM. On a PC, it depends on the UEFI designer, but I have seen problems with HP laptops.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 15 April 2021, 21:39:57
The factory reports they have completed 150 blue, 50 UK, and 125 gray key sets and will be mailing them to me by express air shipping in the coming days, with the next batch of pearl/pebble US ANSI sublimated key sets. Also sending 60 blue hhkb 6 key sets and the same number of gray sets, plus 15 6 key mac sets each for both these colors. I will be posting photos soon after!
This means that orders containing these key sets will be eligible to get into the queue for shipping assuming everything is in stock (the split shipping option is not available any more) - we are still going in the original shipping order where possible so shipping is still going to be months away for most orders as I am the final bottleneck of the project, inspecting each keyboard and putting each order together one at a time. As noted earlier I am unable to estimate where any one particular order is in the queue but I send out a tracking number by email as soon as each order ships.
Post by: mode on Fri, 16 April 2021, 07:11:17
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 April 2021, 20:21:21
Attached is Zed's draft artwork for the international sublimated key sets. The factory expects to start production on these in a few days. If there are any issues please post a reply on this thread.
As a note, these images are drafts and you will not receive all of the keys below in any set. Each language file contains multiple sets that can be ordered separately (front print, base key set, etc.).
As a note the Apple specific keys in the below proposed artwork would be for new orders only. I will not be changing any prior front print orders for the new apple front print.
To view them larger, you can click the image and right click to save the file.
Post by: online on Sun, 18 April 2021, 10:10:54
Dye sublimation update on the blue printed US ANSI, UK pearl/pebble, and dark gray US ANSI printed key sets:
The factory reports they have completed 150 blue, 50 UK, and 125 gray key sets and will be mailing them to me by express air shipping in the coming days, with the next batch of pearl/pebble US ANSI sublimated key sets. Also sending 60 blue hhkb 6 key sets and the same number of gray sets, plus 15 6 key mac sets each for both these colors. I will be posting photos soon after!
This means that orders containing these key sets will be eligible to get into the queue for shipping assuming everything is in stock (the split shipping option is not available any more) - we are still going in the original shipping order where possible so shipping is still going to be months away for most orders as I am the final bottleneck of the project, inspecting each keyboard and putting each order together one at a time. As noted earlier I am unable to estimate where any one particular order is in the queue but I send out a tracking number by email as soon as each order ships.
Sorting packages are time-consuming and tedious, it's often overlooked by buyers.
Appreciate your hard work.
Post by: Hapi on Tue, 20 April 2021, 06:59:05
I won't be scanning any other key sets but will be taking photos of each set.
Attached is Zed's draft artwork for the international sublimated key sets. The factory expects to start production on these in a few days. If there are any issues please post a reply on this thread.
As a note, these images are drafts and you will not receive all of the keys below in any set. Each language file contains multiple sets that can be ordered separately (front print, base key set, etc.).
As a note the Apple specific keys in the below proposed artwork would be for new orders only. I will not be changing any prior front print orders for the new apple front print.
To view them larger, you can click the image and right click to save the file.
I know that I am probably the only Czech who ordered the F model. But I am also a crazy enthusiast.
So I would like to know how many sets need to be ordered to make it worthwhile to produce a Czech layout. These are 29 different keys (Red - peacock, green - apple). I want to have a lifetime supply. So I'm willing to order enough. I know it's all about money. So please write me under what conditions it would be possible to implement it.
Keyboard Laout Editor (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@_name=CZ%20Layout&author=Hapi&css=%2F@import%20url('https%2F:%2F%2F%2F%2Ffonts.googleapis.com%2F%2Fcss%3Ffamily%2F=Arial')%2F%3B%0A*%20%7B%20font-family%2F:%20'Arial'%2F%3B%20%7D%3B&@_y:0.5&c=%23cfa1a1%3B&=~%0Aʽ&=1%0A+%0A%0A%60&=2%0Aě%0A%0A%2F@&=3%0Aš%0A%0A%23&=4%0Ač%0A%0A$&=5%0Ař%0A%0A%2F%3B&=6%0Až%0A%0A%5E&=7%0Aý%0A%0A%2F&&=8%0Aá%0A%0A*&=9%0A%C3%AD%0A%0A%5B&=0%0Aé%0A%0A%5D&=ˇ%0A%25&=´%0A%2F=&_c=%23cccccc&w:2%3B&=Backspace&_x:0.25&c=%23a1cfa6%3B&=5%0Ař%0A%0A~&=9%0A%C3%AD%0A%0A%7B&=0%0Aé%0A%0A%7D&=%25%0A%2F=&=ˇ%0A´%3B&@_c=%23cccccc&w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Z&=U&=I&=O&=P&_c=%23cfa1a1%3B&=%2F%2F%0Aú&=(%0A(%0A%7B%0A%7D&_x:0.25&c=%23cccccc&w:1.25&h:2&w2:1.5&h2:1&x2:-0.25%3B&=Enter&_x:0.25&c=%23a1cfa6%3B&=%2F%2F%0Aú%0A%0A%5B&=(%0A)%0A%0A%5D%3B&@_c=%23cccccc&w:1.75%3B&=Caps%20Lock&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&_c=%23cfa1a1%3B&=%22%0Aů%0A%0AŮ&=!%0A§%0A%0Aß&=%60%0A¨&_x:1.5&c=%23a1cfa6%3B&=%22%0Aů%0A%0A%2F%3B&=!%0A§%0A%0A'%3B&@_c=%23cccccc&w:1.25%3B&=Shift&=%7C%0A%5C&=Y&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&_c=%23cfa1a1%3B&=%3F%0A,%0A%0A%3C&=%2F:%0A.%0A%0A%3E&_c=%23cccccc%3B&=%2F_%0A-&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=AltGr&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 20 April 2021, 10:20:40
Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too! The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"
Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
Post by: Hapi on Tue, 20 April 2021, 11:35:23
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it. It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.
Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too! The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"
Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
I understand. I'm ok with full keyset. I plan to buy 10 US ANSI sets if you Czech was not possible. If it is Czech, I can easily buy them 20. I could even think about a higher number.
Just for info: Peacock is very old Czech keyset. Now very popular on Drop. Modern Czech layout has some differences.
Post by: DZed on Tue, 20 April 2021, 14:11:15
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it. It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.
Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too! The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"
Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
I understand. I'm ok with full keyset. I plan to buy 10 US ANSI sets if you Czech was not possible. If it is Czech, I can easily buy them 20. I could even think about a higher number.
Just for info: Peacock is very old Czech keyset. Now very popular on Drop. Modern Czech layout has some differences.
Hi Hapi, we also have a discussion about Czech sets going on over on DT. I am doing the set and trying to figure out which layouts are preferred. Do you want Apple, Peacock, IBM or Modern?
http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf)
Post by: Hapi on Tue, 20 April 2021, 15:00:25
Hi Hapi, we also have a discussion about Czech sets going on over on DT. I am doing the set and trying to figure out which layouts are preferred. Do you want Apple, Peacock, IBM or Modern?
http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf)
Hello, DZed.
I personally prefer the Apple layout.
In general, Czech layouts differ only in sublegends. Most keyboards do not have them. The Czech layout in windows has these characters placed below the letters (ad document in your post) and there are no sublegends on the keyboards. The alternate characters that are below the numbers have been completely useless. Most users use only the at sign. Programmers usually use an English keyboard or a Czech programmers layout. It is the same as English and Czech characters are alternative. That's why I think Apple layout is also useful for windows and linux users. The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.
Post by: DZed on Tue, 20 April 2021, 15:29:31
The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.
I'm not sure if we can do all the Peacock/English front print legends but I will do the Apple style layout at least. We will also send you a file for approval before going to the printers but I have a few other languages to do before I can get to the Czech set.
Post by: Hapi on Tue, 20 April 2021, 15:40:34
The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.
I'm not sure if we can do all the Peacock/English front print legends but I will do the Apple style layout at least. We will also send you a file for approval before going to the printers but I have a few other languages to do before I can get to the Czech set.
Sure, that'll be great. :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 21 April 2021, 17:22:14
Zed has also just added the 1U Mac keys requested and color options for the keys (see the extra keys page on the project web site for the new graphics) - green Alt keys, gray SSK front print keys, and green SysRq front print. No other colors or other options are currently available until I see how the green sublimation turns out.
If interested in any of these sets or color keys please message me or email me so I can let you know when they are ready to order (let me know which you are interested in). First I'm going to make sure one of each comes out nice from the factory.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 April 2021, 10:55:13
Only the "all in stock" shipping and all in stock separate shipping will go out - the factory is doing all the front printing stuff and extra keys last, expected towards the end of May (so those who have ordered F1-F12, Industrial SSK, and extra keys will get everything starting after I receive those keys - there is no "separate separate" shipping option to get your main key set a little earlier and the standard separate shipping option is no longer available).
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 April 2021, 18:38:23
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
In the update, I have added a note on how to mount the solenoid L bracket with one of the screw-on bumpers:
The L bracket case hole is 6-32 thread so you can actually use the L bracket as the nut for any bumpers with 6-32 threads or with a 6-32 screw that you can order elsewhere. For example the 1 inch tall bumpers on the project web site include a 6-32 thread screw. No need to drill another hole in the case if you want both a screw on bumper as well as a solenoid! Unfortunately the 1/2 inch bumpers known as “medium with the threaded stud” are 8-32 thread I believe so you’d have to buy a stick on bumper or drill another hole, or mount the solenoid internally with something like 3M VHB tape. Might be better to purchase a set of 1/2 inch bumpers with a hole in the middle, instead of with an included screw, so that you can use a 6-32 screw of your own.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 May 2021, 19:55:15
The controllers would be free and I would cover the cost of shipping in the US, with the only requirement that you make a good faith attempt to repair them and let me know in detail how to fix them, so I can pass along the info to the factory. Maybe you'd need to remove one working shift register chip over to another PCB and keep one or more of the PCBs as "for parts" units, for example. I'd also request that you fix and mail me back one or two of the many controllers I send over, just to show the factory that they are in fact repairable.
In the attached comparison, my suspicion is that the PCB on the top had its USB-C connector soldered at such an angle that caused the controller to not work. It just shows every gray dot as pressed in the xwhatsit capsense utility program, at any threshold value (xwhatsit's Model F testing PDF notes that a working controller should display no gray dots at the very first startup and should initially auto calibrate to threshold value 681). The one on the bottom is tested and working.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: rknize on Tue, 04 May 2021, 10:28:36
If you can't find anyone else to enthusiastically look at these, I can have a crack at a few. I don't have a keyboard to test them on yet, but I can do a smoke test at least. Are there any components on the bottom of the PCB that would prevent the use of a hot plate?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 May 2021, 21:29:05
[attachimg=1]
Post by: blur410 on Fri, 07 May 2021, 04:07:02
Post by: mode on Fri, 07 May 2021, 13:35:50
The next batch of key sets arrived! The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below).
(Attachment Link)
noice.
Post by: zacheadams on Mon, 10 May 2021, 13:50:23
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 10 May 2021, 16:27:45
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 11 May 2021, 12:46:07
Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.
(https://i.imgur.com/VMtdrgb.jpeg)
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Tue, 11 May 2021, 14:05:53
What can I say? I fell headfirst into the world of linear switches not long after joining this buy.Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/VMtdrgb.jpeg)
Post by: atzemis13 on Tue, 18 May 2021, 11:57:12
The next batch of key sets arrived! The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below).
(Attachment Link)
Have any pics of the dark gray or blue printed keys to share yet? Excited to see them.
Post by: online on Tue, 18 May 2021, 17:38:36
I should have ordered the full-size F62 eons ago instead of the ultracompact. Nonetheless, my upgraded F62 arrived over a month ago and I've been using it since.
Like the new perspective. Sound test for the wife or husband who lives with a (keyboard) addict.
Post by: SuperBo on Sat, 22 May 2021, 00:16:03
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 May 2021, 14:57:12
atzemis13 I hope to post some photos of these sets in the coming weeks.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 May 2021, 18:16:13
The sublimation came out great for both of these colors. Please disregard the colors as they are not 100% accurate. In person the Industrial SSK blue is an exact match to the original IBM Industrial SSK Model M blue keys.
I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: dc_in_sf on Mon, 31 May 2021, 18:15:04
Below are photos of the new Industrial SSK Blue and 60% Dark Gray key sublimated key sets installed on a new Model F keyboard.
The sublimation came out great for both of these colors. Please disregard the colors as they are not 100% accurate. In person the Industrial SSK blue is an exact match to the original IBM Industrial SSK Model M blue keys.
I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I'm tempted to pickup another F77 and get both the grey/blue keys sets to go for the Leopold gray/blue look...
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 May 2021, 21:02:49
Quote
Ellipse wrote: ↑May 26th, 2020, 11:31 pm
Inner foam update: the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used. The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam. The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy. For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!). After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material. In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).
As a follow up to my post, I wanted to share some photos showing that the new proposed foam is a match to the original type of foam used on some of the IBM Model F XT type keyboards. The original XT foam pictured is the non-crumbly variation of the foam, and it does show a compression set in the shape of the barrels.
Can you tell whether each of the three foams in the photo below is the new or original design?
The top foam is the original XT foam, and the middle and bottom foams are the new sample foam.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 June 2021, 22:19:29
"As I continue to mail out all the Brand New Model F Keyboard orders, I wanted to share a brief video from the ribbon cable factory. I think this video shows the machine that is the last step for the cables (the one that cuts and strips the cable ends on each side of the ribbon cable to expose them for soldering to the PCBs). In this example video, the factory is producing samples of 30 position cables which would not belong in any production keyboards. The final cables (if you opened up your keyboard case) have 15 positions and two cables are used for each controller, as IBM did with the original Model F keyboards. The ribbon cables are first made with the required 15 positions in very long sheets and are then cut to size."
Post by: rknize on Wed, 02 June 2021, 10:27:02
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 02 June 2021, 13:49:11
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 03 June 2021, 22:46:48
Ladies and germs... after 4 years and 6 months, my model F has shipped. What a day. :thumb: :thumb:
Ha, congrats! I'm waiting for the day I can report the same. I ordered a month before you - 4 years and 7 months ago -, so I should be getting close. :p
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 05 June 2021, 11:09:10
Also, the blue keycaps come later? Didn’t get ones I ordered and I can’t remember what’s been said.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 June 2021, 14:01:54
As another note, almost everyone who ordered caps and chose the separate shipping option is still waiting on keys as I am focused first on getting out some more keyboards in the next month or so and then I will focus on getting out the key sets.
Hmm, seemed to be detected in Via for me - I suggest starting fresh and re-following each step in order from the manual - firmware section:
Download the following parts into one folder:
*QMK Toolbox (https://github.com/qmk/qmk_toolbox/releases)
* VIA (https://github.com/the-via/releases/releases/tag/v1.3.1)
* Firmware for VIA (link in the manual)
Next steps:
* Unzip the Firmware and Via files
* Startup QMK Toolbox
* Load the Via Firmware (hex file) into the Toolbox – flash the firmware labeled Via that you want to use as the starting point to customize your keyboard. Each firmware file has a default layout as per the file name e.g. F77 ANSI with Print Screen etc. right side block.
* Press and hold left and right shift and the key B on your keyboard – a yellow text appears in the QMK Toolbox – to enter the bootloader
* click the button “Clear EPROM”
* click the button Flash, once the text appears that you can now flash the keyboard
* Once complete, close the QMK Toolbox
Next steps (also the steps you need to do in future, when you want to change the layout):
* Open the VIA application
* Click on Settings and enable “Show Design tab”
* Click on Design Tab
* drag and drop the JSON file called “Via program – load this if you have the F77” or “Via program – load this if you have the F62” into the square (do not load the individual F62_ANSI etc. type files – only load the “load this” file into Via. The other files won’t work and it will look like the keyboard is not detected in Via software otherwise).
* Only now will your keyboard be detected. Go to Configure, Layout, and select your keyboard layout
pandrew’s Model F QMK manual can be found here: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=480196#p480196
Current preprogrammed keypress commands in Via and QMK:
Hold down the keys Fn+Spacebar+
T–>Toggle the Solenoid On/Off Any key HPT_TOG
+= Increase Solenoid dwell time HPT_DWLI
-_ Decrease Solenoid dwell time HPT_DWLD
E–>EEPROM Reset (erases all settings like if you adjusted a dwell time for solenoid)
R–>Reset (enter bootloader)
D–>Debug
Command keys: hold Left Shift + Right Shift +
B–>Enter Bootloader
N–>Toggle N-Key Rollover (NKRO) (off by default to maximize compatibility)
Others: https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/advanced-keycodes/feature_command
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 05 June 2021, 14:57:51
Hopefully someone else will have the same issue and figure it out some day :thumb:
Post by: MemeScreen on Mon, 07 June 2021, 00:46:37
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 07 June 2021, 11:55:17
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 08 June 2021, 18:50:23
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: MemeScreen on Wed, 09 June 2021, 16:14:59
Regarding Chyrosran22's video that was just linked to above by MemeScreen, I especially liked the stop motion type animation with the keys and the synchronization of the animation of the keys with the music. Very well done!
I was also a fan of the video. I just hope you don’t get too big a headache from all the new orders after the video releases.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 10 June 2021, 00:04:08
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
As a general note to everyone, please do follow the written manual for troubleshooting. It will save you headaches trying to reinvent the wheel when the fastest path to getting things up and running has already been figured out and documented. I've personally inspected over 1,000 new Model F keyboards and have documented the quickest ways to get things up and running, having learned many of these methods reading on the DT, GH, and r/MK forums over many years.
If anyone has any additional troubleshooting tips not found in the manual please do share here so that I can update the manual.
And if anything is not clear in the manual please do suggest what to change.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 16 June 2021, 23:43:20
"Dead simple Model F Keyboard Layout Customization in 16 minutes: QMK and Via"
After viewing from start to finish, is this sufficient as an introductory video, with the encouragement to review the detailed QMK and Via manuals for further exploration?
I am greatly looking forward to the upcoming review video as I think it will be another great Model F keyboard review, maybe one of the best and most thorough! The amount of research and effort that goes into this reviewer's work is very comprehensive and it shows that a lot of research and care was put into each video. Kind of reminds me of the old very well done, deeply thorough tech reviews I would read when deciding on computer parts to build my next system. Even articles specifically discussing hardware LUT calibration on my computer monitor screens and how to optimize color accuracy, for example.
As a note the comments in the below video are not directed at any one person, and please do not bother or contact the reviewer as reviewers should be unbiased and independent without pressure to change anything they say.
I have been emailing back and forth a lot with the the reviewer in question, who replied to me that they figured things out as of now but that the firmware customization process was extremely difficult and that this would be reflected strongly in the commentary. I agree that no one should have as much of a negative experience with the Model F as this reviewer - it should never happen and if it does it should be at least mentioned.
However, I was completely surprised by this note. I haven't heard of complaints that people spent over an hour in frustration just trying to figure out how to update the layout in recent months, with the latest documentation. I think both QMK and Via are great and easy to work with in my opinion and am very grateful to pandrew and darkcruix for improving the xwhatsit Model F experience.
I am worried. My main concern is that people interested in the Model F will view the video and develop a false opinion on the difficulty of the firmware, which will make them not consider any Model F keyboard, original or new. Also not an insignificant note, based on my email conversations I'd say less than 10-15% of Model F users make even one layout change in the firmware (I believe many use Autohotkey or similar key remapping software instead for simple mappings, or the built in Apple remapping settings for command/option/etc.).
This new video I believe shows that the Model F firmware can be set up in minutes for most users and that it's easy to do and does not require opening up the keyboard.
I understand fully that a review ought to be based on the reviewer's subjective personal experience with the product as possibly one of the most important factors, but with something like a Model F keyboard which has been around for decades without the ability to reprogram layouts and the focus of this project being a hardware reproduction of Model F keyboards, I feel that the focus of any Model F review can include comments on personal experiences but ought to concentrate on how a typical user's experience would be going forward with the Model F hardware, not as much on the add-on firmware features that appeal to more of a power user customizing firmware (I'd consider any Model F firmware customizer as a power user). In my experience most people I've messaged with like the Model F for the typing experience, with the outstanding amount of programmability as a plus for some.
Admittedly as noted before, the documentation should have been fleshed out much earlier. I think the primary part of a keyboard review should be about the keyboard experience that 85-90% of Model F users have, which is just using the keyboard without firmware-level key remapping, though I understand that every feature should be easily accessible in any product.
Why scare people away from the Model F by skewering an experience that nearly no one has had or will ever encounter with respect to reprogramming firmware? I guess the question is if (a big if) the new video and the manuals are sufficient for 99.9% of those "power users" new to QMK and Via on the Model F, should the emphasis of any Model F review be on a typical user's experience who is yet to try out the xwhatsit controller on a Model F and will come across this new video in the manual before starting if they want to make some layout changes?
Please let me be clear: my intention is not to denigrate, intimidate or call for change with anyone in particular but to discuss what is the essential usefulness of a Model F to most people and how much of a review should focus exclusively on what's most important to most people. I would be saddened if thousands of people are turned away from the IBM and new Model F keyboards because of insufficient firmware documentation. I am hopeful that this new video might have changed the reviewer's experience had it been made earlier, and will help out everyone going forward.
Please do keep the comments respectful and considerate, and not directed at any one person or mentioning any names. My intention is only for a generalized discussion on keyboard reviews.
Post by: mode on Thu, 17 June 2021, 01:13:49
Being open source we can certainly improve it in response to any valid feedback, but I suspect the things he wants arn't what everyone else wants, and a significant fork which allows softwareless macro recording would be more up his street, idk, I guess we'll see when his review comes out.
Post by: darkcruix on Thu, 17 June 2021, 02:34:55
I think QMK is popular enough and well known enough that chryos not liking the VIA gui, and not being a programmer isn't that big of a deal, it's also not surprising.
Being open source we can certainly improve it in response to any valid feedback, but I suspect the things he wants arn't what everyone else wants, and a significant fork which allows softwareless macro recording would be more up his street, idk, I guess we'll see when his review comes out.
I am working on the more comprehensive documentation around VIA as soon as I find some moments outside of my day-job and family. As the keyboards are delivered using the VIA extension to QMK and can be adjusted accordingly using the VIA application, I think it is the best one to document for new starters. People shouldn't require to flash the firmware to make layout adjustments or add a macro.
For the more advanced users, I will have an in-depth doc in the technical manual around QMK itself at a later stage.
If the reviewer had issues with the firmware usage - that is fixable and should be fixed. That is what the keyboard community does. I have no idea, what the exact issues have been, but we'll address them.
I hope it won't turn away people initially - for me it is still the best keyboard I have ever owned and for many people it could be the same (No, I don't have any stakes in the brand new model f keyboard or have ANY financial interest as many of you know).
Post by: blur410 on Thu, 17 June 2021, 10:29:33
I made it clear in my review that it takes as long as a friend request send to accept in order to reprogram the board. Meanwhile all other software from other companies is available instantly and everything as far as details regarding the product is stamped on the back or even engraved into it. All the back of my F62 kishsaver says is the serial and model. While navigating the repository in the QMK beta it gives a full list of random slightly different board controllers. And the only way to tell what controller is inside the keyboard is to open it up. The controller should be shown with some random ID mark on the back sticker as I hinted in my review.
Regardless, the F62 is unparalleled in it's layout flexibility compared to any modern custom board as not only can any keycap be placed anywhere and maintain an ergonomic profile, new barrels and flippers can be either added or removed for 2U stabilized keys at most positions. It would be highly unwise for this feature to be undersold as "only 10% of power users would reprogram their board" while it is one of a very small number of keyboards capable of this level of customization. A selling point should be a selling point, why else would manufacturers spout off all kinds of claims, it could be any one of them in comparison that causes a potential customer to come to a decision. And in this same vein, the software used to program it should be just as accessible and capable as the hardware to allow the full capability of the feature to be realized.
Post by: mode on Thu, 17 June 2021, 11:33:57
What I don't like is VIA. It is unnecessary software overhead using resources while not being worth the resources used.
Not sure what you're getting at, you don't have to use VIA if you don't want to, nor does it have to be open all the time if you do use it. A lot of users really like VIA, it's definitely appreciated by a great number of people.
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 17 June 2021, 15:14:44
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 17 June 2021, 22:52:59
Thanks for everyone's feedback so far. I will reply to a few points below but I wanted to update the thread to note that I have ordered a stamping tool for the IBM XT foam as quite a number of folks were asking for it.
As a note the priority is very low for the XT foam and I will only be focusing on mailing out everyone's non-XT orders over the coming months, so please expect these to go out around year end and not earlier if you are interested.
This will be another group buy style order like with the beam spring and displaywriter beam spring controllers, where I will tally up the orders and send them to the factory when the tooling is complete (expected in several months from now). For the group buy orders I have subtracted $10 from the price; I will order some extras to sell for maybe $10 to $20 more for those who are late to the group buy, to help very slightly ameliorate the project cost overruns including all the DHL Express mailing of the key sets a month or so ago.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-inner-foam-f62-f77-f62-split-shift-f77-split-shift-f107-f122/
I would also like to note that a Model F user pointed out to me that the QMK toolbox reportedly had malware and was not fully open source so out of an abundance of caution I have updated the manual to use Atmel Flip's free software in its place (it is not open source either though).
My thoughts on the discussion so far - please do keep the feedback going!
blur410 As a note we are now in the public beta phase, so by reviewing the video and following the links in the description there are no additional requests needed to be made as was the case earlier. I agree that part of the issue is the learning curve associated with QMK and Via, and the other (maybe more important part) is the special workarounds required for the Model F as we wait for the firmware project coordinators to accept the Model F code into the main branch of their project. Once that happens some of these extra steps can be shortened or eliminated. Currently they have not accepted any Model F related submissions but I'm trying to figure out a way to get in touch with the project coordinators - have just posted on their Discord server.
Regarding customizability I do agree that it is a big feature, but I would differentiate between the ability to flash preprogrammed layouts in my big Zip file with minimal effort and the ability to customize your own layouts. There are many custom layouts available as you mentioned but in my experience chatting with folks, it's probably more common to flash a premade firmware when making a change on your keyboard than it is to program it yourself. So many folks I've talked to over the years just want a Model F and a normal layout they can use without complications which is how I got to my estimations.
euphxenos again my apologies to you and everyone still patiently waiting for their new Model F to arrive. I expect to continue sending out keyboards over the coming months and hopefully catch up fully around year end, not in years from now. So far I've personally tested and mailed out more than 1,200 keyboards and now that the first batch of keys has arrived I have been able to go as quickly as possible to send these out, though I still spend 20-30 minutes preparing each order.
For anyone who has not been following the threads lately and is wondering how the project could have been delayed I have posted in thorough detail on the project web site blog the reasons behind the delays and the current progress towards finishing up this project.
Post by: blur410 on Fri, 18 June 2021, 07:03:27
One of the reasons why the software side and QMK attracts attention is that this Model F repro isn't happening in the year 1991 where mechanisms and build quality were the only reasonable talking points for reviewers. Competing products exist with other fetching features and some people are spoiled by the modern comforts afforded by customs and drawing comparisons. One of the biggest reasons to go custom and spend over 200 dollars on a keyboard is customization.
What is the whole situation surrounding QMK at the moment? I have an AUG 2020 distro in my computer that I only use for flashing firmware. Is that a supposed virus or what? I had not heard of any of this until Ellipse mentioned it.
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 18 June 2021, 09:22:13
Post by: phughes on Sat, 19 June 2021, 18:22:07
As much as I love my Model F XT with internal Soarer's, I'm aware that if any of the PCB components fail, I'd probably be screwed as I have very little knowledge of electronics (although I did install Soarer's on an internal Teensy).
Just out of interest, I wonder how many other UK orders there have been?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 June 2021, 03:01:18
phughes glad you have joined the project! I don't have the count on hand by country but UK is the most popular destination by the total order value after the US. Canada's up next!
Another thorough and well-researched review Chyros! Thanks again for putting this together. One of the single best history-infused overviews of the IBM Model F keyboards I have come across - so many facts in here. Some thoughts on the review are below.
Your microphone captured the keyboard sound test well - sounds like your keyboard is in the room with me! It's tough to position the microphone at just the right distance from the keyboard to capture the sound well as you did.
My first major thought is on the discussion of the firmware that I wanted to share with everyone: based on your commentary regarding frustrations with the firmware documentation in the manual, as shown in your video as of a few days ago I now direct newcomers to a new step by step introductory video to help those looking to get started with reprogramming their keyboard. It's only for those who want to change the layout or add additional keys on the function layer. I am still completely puzzled on why the firmware did not work and would have probably appreciated some additional visual documentation on your efforts to diagnose what happened or what error messages you were seeing when you were on the beta QMK site for example (this documentation is not for reasons of schadenfreude, I promise!). I am sorry you had a bad experience with the two QMK-based firmware options - this should not have happened to anyone using a Model F.
The new step by step firmware video proves that the same layout files and resources I have linked to in the video description work 100% and without modification or requirements of additional third party resources. I only wish I could have produced this earlier in time for you but now my hope is that it helps everyone going forward. There are a bunch of steps and they all have to be done in order :)
A message to all worried about the Model F firmware - please watch the brand new Model F firmware video I just made (see link above) to see how simple it is. All that's needed is to follow the steps in the video which all have both a screen capture as well as written descriptions. Again this is not meant to be an insult and is not meant to be directed at anyone in particular or anyone who has had trouble with my subpar documentation, or with QMK in general in the past. I feel that my video makes the firmware programming as simple as firmware programming can be for lay persons and that anyone can begin to make layout changes by watching the video. In minutes you can be up and running with either QMK or Via reprogramming (as a note all keyboards come custom programmed with the layout you ordered so the firmware talk is only for those who want to change something easily).
Chyros, there is one most important thing that was left out of your review, and I was surprised for sure as the video was otherwise 100% comprehensive. I understand that you were under significant time constraints and understandably did not have any further time for troubleshooting, so I can understand why it was not included. The review does not mention the simplicity and continued availability of programming the original xwhatsit firmware (for which full instructions are available in the manual on the project web site). You seem to not like QMK and Via in general and have expressed familiarity with the original xwhatsit firmware. Why not start there, even though QMK was what was loaded as the default? Of course I agree that all firmwares offered with the project should be equally accessible and easy to use and so any frustrations should not have happened with reprogramming a Model F.
As a note to everyone, when you want to adjust the factory default layout you have to flash new firmware to the keyboard no matter what, so instead of flashing QMK or Via, one could just have easily flashed the original xwhatsit firmware which continues to work on the original and new Model F keyboards. Admittedly there are some limitations of the old firmware that helped encourage adding Model F support to alternatives like QMK and Via (Via is built on QMK but with a downloadable offline GUI program), such as improved auto-calibration logic in the two QMK-based offerings. The xwhatsit firmware does support layout adjustments, function layers, macros, solenoids, LEDs and more, just like QMK and Via.
The video noted that I did not write a firmware manual. This is correct as there is currently one comprehensive manual available and already written for the Model F QMK and for the xwhatsit firmware, and forum member darkcruix is adding to the Model F Via documentation in the comprehensive Model F manual, separate from my own more intermediate manual. Each manual has its own link in the firmware section, which has been updated based on the recent feedback. I am not a developer and have been very grateful to all the folks who have helped improve the firmware and documentation of the Model F including most especially Deskthority.net users pandrew and darkcruix.
The review also shows a screenshot of my "all in one place" Zip file of layouts and firmware available for download. Specifying more concretely which file to use is certainly something I should have addressed more clearly in the manual; I have now specified exactly which file to use in the new firmware video linked to above.
The review points out a reference to a confusing QMK toolbox program which was recently switched to a more user-friendly program and documented in the step by step firmware video. QMK Toolbox is no longer required or recommended for any Model F related tasks.
Regarding the space bar sounds, the manual now includes a section on modding the space bar to change its sound and feel as Chyros noted in the video - so many mods are possible with Model F keyboards to personalize them more to individual tastes. There are even floss mods and grease mods to reduce the sound when typing and ways of making the space bar quieter or louder, looser or tighter.
The video mentioned that the keyboard doesn't work well with USB hubs and alleged that the information was not anywhere to be found. This information was actually already in the project web site manual - Troubleshooting - section D. There are so many little but important tips and advice that I cannot really prioritize everything at the top - everyone really should go over the manual as fully as you can manage before setting things up, especially if you are trying to do more advanced tasks related to the firmware and especially if something is not working. Outside of the firmware, the troubleshooting section especially is completely and fully documented for troubleshooting any common Model F issue and fixing it as quickly as possible. As a note, I added the usb hub note to the manual last year, shortly after receiving this advice from a Model F user and shortly after sharing it in my post here: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046&p=466816&hilit=hub#p466816
Regarding the pitch of the springs, I have posted a comparison video of several of my own original Model F keyboards compared to one of the new Model F reproduction keyboards. In my experience every Model F keyboard sounds slightly different and my video demonstrates that some Model F keyboards have higher pitches and others have lower pitches than the reproductions, and I agree that the sound of the reproductions will probably change over future decades as the metal springs oxidize and corrode over time (as Chyros mentioned has likely happened to the original springs).
Thanks again Chyros for the immense amount of your time to help tell people about Model F keyboards! For all watchers of this review I hope that you will look more into Model F keyboards and let others know about them, whether the old ones from IBM on eBay that you can take apart and restore or the new reproduction ones. The best place to read what people say about them is on the mechanical keyboard forums like Deskthority, geekhack, and reddit/r/MechanicalKeyboards. The most important thing that can be done for Model F keyboards is to get the word out so that more people can discover them, whether they remember using the old IBM keyboards many years ago or whether they are just exploring all mechanical keyboards for the first time. The Model F keyboards really are the best keyboards for typing in my view.
Post by: blur410 on Mon, 21 June 2021, 12:47:16
If VIA or xwhatsit came preinstalled, then it could be a lot more seamless user experience and instead of the 10% of people needing to flash their keyboard, only 1% or less would see a point in reflashing to a custom qmk layout, completely negating the need to emphasize this step and even letting it be passably removed from the manual(or relegated to some distant afterthought).
Personally, I prefer the basic QMK experience and am happy to see the many changes suggested to continue being added to the manual in addition to the current factory loaded layout.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 June 2021, 13:05:21
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/clear-relegendable-cap-stem/
Check out the first sample units from the new molds in the below photo - the caps are super-clear!
[attachimg=1]
As requested by many people asking about these caps, I have ordered a new mold for these transparent relendable caps based on the exact dimensions of the original IBM 4704 transparent (now yellowed!) caps. The relegendable caps allowed banks using 4704 terminals to put in specific function keys before the days of the GUI for IBM mainframes and terminals, so it is definitely in line with the 4704 reproduction project. Nowadays they can be used for designing your own key, to open a specific program, to run a particular macro, etc.
The plan is to offer the lowered pricing currently shown on the product page for the group buy folks and then to increase pricing once they are actually in stock, to help cover project cost overruns and pay for the new molds.
Ordering one unit of this product gives you one clear relegendable cap and one Model F / Model M compatible stem. The stem will be provided in assorted colors - you can't pick, but you won't see it anyways once your relegendable paper label is installed.
I am aware that Fentek may still have some transparent caps in a non-original design at lower prices and I recall that a Deskthority forum member has posted a comparison of original vs. fentek caps.
This is the only place to get these IBM-style reproduction transparent caps, unless you buy an original 4704 keyboard that happens to have these caps (if you can find one!).
You can access a template for printing your keys here: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-4704-model-f-model-m-transparent-key-template-t9794.html
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 June 2021, 20:08:00
Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project? I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout. It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands. If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew. pandrew has already been instrumental with bringing QMK to the Model F and it would be great if some people could help bring QMK Model F to the main branch for greater visibility and simplicity.
Post by: Pete on Fri, 25 June 2021, 04:43:14
Update: New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority).
Has anyone ever managed to get a programmable led to shine through one of these?
Will all the keyboards ship by year end? (I’m waiting on a Carolina Blue one and solenoids).
Post by: Pete on Fri, 25 June 2021, 04:56:40
Post by: goofy9x on Fri, 25 June 2021, 05:30:43
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?Easily from Unicomp: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CustomKey
Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 June 2021, 12:07:53
Update: New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority).
Has anyone ever managed to get a programmable led to shine through one of these?
Will all the keyboards ship by year end? (I’m waiting on a Carolina Blue one and solenoids).
The key stems are not transparent so I'm not sure.
That is the expectation that all remaining orders ship over the coming months and by year end but more recent orders may go out later.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 27 June 2021, 11:22:36
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 27 June 2021, 21:11:30
Below are the very first photos of the customized F62 scumyc layout. These keyboards are going out this week to scumyc.
Keen-eyed folks will notice an error in the flipper placement around the | \ and Enter keys for one board - some of the many errors needing to be addressed during the QC process. These errors and other errors such as mislabeled variation numbers from the factory on the boxes have slowed down the QC process and is one of the reasons I will continue mailing out keyboards the rest of the year most likely.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Pete on Tue, 29 June 2021, 02:41:30
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 29 June 2021, 12:53:24
Yes Pete - scan through the imgur album of all the keyboard variations to see the dark blue case. It came out nicely and so did the light blue (Carolina Blue) case. https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
Post by: Pete on Wed, 30 June 2021, 02:53:28
Yes Pete - scan through the imgur album of all the keyboard variations to see the dark blue case. It came out nicely and so did the light blue (Carolina Blue) case. https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
It’s gorgeous! Thanks. Might have to order another kb now :)
Post by: blur410 on Wed, 30 June 2021, 07:51:45
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 June 2021, 13:47:27
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 July 2021, 09:56:17
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 01 July 2021, 11:59:00
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 July 2021, 10:42:19
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Pete on Tue, 06 July 2021, 05:44:12
I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys.
(Attachment Link)
Thanks for convincing me to order another keyboard. :)
Post by: reavy on Tue, 06 July 2021, 11:20:28
Help request: Model F code refactoring for QMK submission?
Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project? I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout. It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands. If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew…
I’d be willing to help. I’m a software engineer by training. I wonder what the issue is with QMK? The current work doesn’t match their code style or something?
Post by: reavy on Tue, 06 July 2021, 14:45:38
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 06 July 2021, 22:07:29
Yes, sublimation is complete for US, HHKB, and Mac sets including pearl/pebble, blue, and 60% dark gray options. They are now working on the remaining sets, front printed sets, and lower volume custom stuff. A post of mine a few posts back explain the status of these sets and that they need more time. The priority is the international sets first.
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 07 July 2021, 19:41:27
I got all the keys installed and working, and the next step is to try installing the solenoid!
I had some initial frustrations putting the inner assembly back together after fixing the layout (it was set up for ISO enter instead of ANSI); it's not as easy as it looks in the video. Just trying to clamp the northern end of the bottom plate (the rainbow metal part) back on after slotting in the southern end of the plate bends the bottom plate where it interfaces with the black tabs, which makes it even harder to fit under the extremely narrow slots. I had to hammer those parts back and bend the tabs with an adjustable wrench to get them to fit again. Quite the pain, so I hope I don't need to do it again any time soon.
I have a couple issues with my order that I'll email you about, Ellipse, but I will ask about one of them here since it may affect others. My right and left SHIFT and ENTER keys in both my pebble and industrial grey keysets get stuck on the downstroke because they stabilizer plunger on the keycap is too thick (maybe towards the top. They seem slightly conical in shape, which may be the cause). My black blank keyset does not have this issue (hence why they're installed in the picture). I swapped the SHIFT and ENTER keys from two different Model Ms, and they didn't have this problem on the F77. When I put the Model F keys on the Model Ms they stuck in them too and even pulled the white stabilizer guide (not sure of the term) out of the plunger. Has anyone else had this issue with the new keys?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 07 July 2021, 19:55:43
Regarding keys getting stuck please check the manual - troubleshooting section for a 100% working solution involving wiggling the stems. With all of the tight tolerances and keys being heated up so much during sublimation, you may have to do the wiggling trick since the keys are not installed to the keyboard during shipping. Also my inserts are best with my keys and other inserts are best with other keys. I would not mix and match.
Post by: Pete on Wed, 07 July 2021, 20:01:32
I got all the keys installed and working, and the next step is to try installing the solenoid!
I’d love to see (and hear) some more videos of the solenoid in action inside the case. That’s the component I’m most eagerly awaiting since experiencing one in a keyboard over 30 years ago hooked up to a mainframe. It was an operator terminal for an IBM 360 mainframe I think and we were allowed to try typing on it. It was awesome.
Post by: str8away on Wed, 07 July 2021, 20:33:59
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 July 2021, 11:23:18
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 08 July 2021, 21:23:25
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 11 July 2021, 12:32:46
I added quick order form functionality to the project web site as a test. It lets you order any configuration of any store item from one page, without having to leave the page. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/quick-order-form/
Below is another photo shared with permission. This one shows the classic style zinc True Red F77 case with pearl/pebble keys as well as Industrial SSK blue keys, and with pebble keys making up part of the home row.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: MortyGoldy on Sun, 11 July 2021, 14:41:19
I've been waiting very patiently for this board to be sent but my excitement is starting to show now that the progress is so far along!!!
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 11 July 2021, 16:49:18
Kavik the solenoid should work out of the box with my Via hex files in the manual on the project web site. They default to being powered on. I do not know about the custom functions not working.
Thanks for confirming this. I found the section in the manual with the preprogrammed keys. Fn + Spacebar + T toggles the solenoid setting on and off. When on, the light on the driver flashes. When off, the light doesn't flash. This indicated that the driver is working.
In order to narrow down if it's an issue with the solenoid, I attached a PC motherboard speaker to the driver, and it successfully beeps when I type. This indicates something is physically or electrically wrong with the solenoid itself. Any ideas what I could check there? I looks like two wires connected to a copper coil but it's all under tape, so I don't want to destroy it by investigating. I tried plugging in the solenoid both directions, but the guide says the polarity doesn't matter; however, I have noticed that the PC speaker is louder in one orientation vs the other.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 July 2021, 14:26:57
UK key sets had an error with some of the keys as noted before. Chyros was sent one good sample set. UK and the other international sets will have to wait a while longer as the factory finishes things up.
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 12 July 2021, 20:07:19
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual. The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed. Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual? If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.
Yeah, I followed the manual, making sure to orient the red wire with the square pins. The fact that the PC speaker works shows that the driver is ok. I think when I tightened the screw on the L shaped mounting bracket, the screw went too far in and broke a couple of the copper wires on the solenoid's spool, so it can't complete the circuit.
I'll just order a new solenoid from you.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my issues.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 July 2021, 20:16:35
Post by: Pete on Mon, 12 July 2021, 20:17:48
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?Easily from Unicomp: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CustomKey
Tried. $179 USD shipping from that site for some keycaps to my country! I guess they calculate shipping per key for international orders? Maybe a drop shipper is the solution.
Post by: chayu on Tue, 13 July 2021, 10:08:03
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 13 July 2021, 18:12:38
"Thanks for another excellent keyboard review, Thomas.
Keys sound authentic, as the banking keyboards always seemed to me to have a deader sound than the IBM PC and 3270 model F keyboards. I used to program the 4704 banking systems many years ago, and there was never that high pitched spring noise you get in your reconditioned keyboard. Managed to get my hands on a "Pingmaster" a couple of years ago, but it obviously never matched the Model Fs I have missed for decades. Been checking in on this project for a long time and am so happy this has finally shipped."
"The 4700s were usually menu based programs designed for smaller screens but similar to what might be seen on 3278 terminals linked to a mainframe. The distributed processing of the 4700 meant that transactions could be partially processed locally and then sent in batches for mainframe processing. The hardware was very reliable, with the most common points of failure being the 4701 5 1/2" floppy drives due to dust and dirt (during a reboot after a power outage), or the display unit. Keyboards were reliable and robust and in my experience front line staff only ever used the 50 key model 100. Usage and key functions tended to be similar to bespoke POS keyboards. The 4704 model 100 keyboard layout was related to the previous generation banking terminal 3604 model 1 keyboard with an extra column of keys on the RHS block, which goes some way towards explaining the unusual format. If there ever were any keyboard issues, a robust upside down tap on the desk sorted things out. I only saw the model 300 and 400 keyboards a few times. The 4700s were programmed in assembler. All these banking systems were eventually replaced by PC's. I did not work in the US, but over half of all New Zealand bank branches used 4700s at one stage. Lloyds bank in the UK used these in the late 1980s. Tellers used these terminals to process almost all front of house banking transactions. I still remember my sorrow at having to bin my trusty old AT format model F keyboard and having to use a crappy plastic model M."
I also wanted to share with permission another great customer image. This one shows the pearl keys and Industrial SSK Blue keys:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Jebotres on Sun, 18 July 2021, 03:05:46
Post by: MHayden on Wed, 21 July 2021, 11:24:09
I learned to type on the original model F back in the day and used them for years at a data entry job. Nothing I've used has ever come close. Cherry switches just don't feel as smoother when you are moving between key presses. It's hard to describe if you've never felt it, but it's very memorable and it will be the best typing experience you'll ever have.
Joe nailed it with these keyboards. They feel and sound the same as the originals did back in the day. And the quality and precision of the parts is actually a bit better. The two I bought are very consistent. And the keycaps are gorgeous and clearly printed. The build quality is as amazing as the originals and I have no doubt that these would survive a direct hit from a tornado like the ones I used at that data entry job did. One thing that particularly stands out is the space bar. It has the right feel and that very memorable sound. It brings back fond memories just using it.
I haven't tried reprogramming it because I don't really need to, but it seems straight-forward enough. I was going to try doing it for the sake of the review, and I was going to also unscrew it to take some pictures to show how easy these things are to service, but I'll leave that up to others who care about that stuff and can post more helpful information. With the service part in particular, I'm not the best person to ask since I used the originals and am already familiar with them.
There are only three downsides that I can think of, but these are inherent in the design itself:
- These are very heavy. Even the smallest keyboard in the smallest case is far too heavy to travel with. Even taking it to and from work would be a chore.
- He was a bit too true to the originals. The function key cluster / numpad on the F77 would have been substantially improved by having an additional column for + and enter. That limits the usability of this keyboard for spreadsheet work since he didn't offer a model that does have a full numpad.
- The layout isn't ergonomic and I'm not sure how easy it would be for someone else here to make a version with an ergo layout. I'll be using the Model F for normal text typing, but I'm spoiled by my Kinesis when it comes to computer programming. Still, ergo layouts are a niche and I'm not really a fan of many of the more popular ones. So it'd be hard to even coordinate everyone to get one made. But if someone wants to try...
Post by: blur410 on Sun, 25 July 2021, 10:08:56
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 July 2021, 11:35:11
The remaining stuff for those who chose the separate shipping option is expected to start going out in a month or two.
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 26 July 2021, 13:20:51
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual. The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed. Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual? If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.
Yeah, I followed the manual, making sure to orient the red wire with the square pins. The fact that the PC speaker works shows that the driver is ok. I think when I tightened the screw on the L shaped mounting bracket, the screw went too far in and broke a couple of the copper wires on the solenoid's spool, so it can't complete the circuit.
I'll just order a new solenoid from you.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my issues.
A new solenoid solved the problem, and it is glorious. The original one was broken, probably because I drove a screw into the coil when I failed to install the second rubber washer (I didn't see it for some reason until after the fact). When I cut away the blue tape, I saw that some of the copper wires had been severed. So make sure to use *both* washers when mounting the solenoid with the L bracket.
It really is plug and play, which is awesome. I need to play with the settings a bit because it's really easy to type too fast for the solenoid with the default setup. I'll post a video later. The sound is really satisfying and takes this already awesome keyboard to another level.
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 26 July 2021, 13:23:38
As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video. This video shows how the top inner assembly steel plates are laser cut. This is the first step of the process, before they are bent to shape and then finally powdercoated. As you can tell, each hole is done one at a time so it is a relatively long process for thousands of keyboards.
The remaining stuff for those who chose the separate shipping option is expected to start going out in a month or two.
That is very cool. I didn't realize they are individually cut. I'd imagined they were stamped out, but I suppose stamping would not achieve the precise tolerances of those holes.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 July 2021, 13:24:45
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 July 2021, 19:28:50
Besides almost everything being an exact reproduction of the original, even with the same type of foam material and similar dark gray color, there were two changes made - one, the removal of the vestigial foam covering part of the attached controller, and two, the pin registration holes were changed from 1/8" to 3/32" to provide an ever so slightly tighter contamination shield for the PCB.
As noted earlier I purchased tooling for the XT foam recently and started taking orders for the foam for delivery later this year. It's a small batch - not sure if any will be left by the time they arrive in stock.
"As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video. Still time to customize your Brand New Model F Keyboard and order add-on accessories (like the First Aid Kit, extra key sets, etc.) at www.ModelFKeyboards.com
This video shows how the inner foam is stamped to create all the super-precise holes for the barrels and top inner assembly tabs. You can then see a photo of the bottom of the stamping tool (basically sharp metal in the outline of all the barrels etc.), and finally a photo of the finished product. The machine that evenly applies the stamping pressure is enormous! You only see a tiny part of the machine in this video."
Top (original) and bottom (new) XT inner foam:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: svenge on Fri, 30 July 2021, 11:15:18
Sooooo... Dare I ask how bad is the backlog wait time for these puppies?
Also, thanks for posting that dark-grey & blue on black chassis image above, that solidified my color choices.
Post by: Pete on Fri, 30 July 2021, 16:01:25
Also, thanks for posting that dark-grey & blue on black chassis image above, that solidified my color choices.
I ordered another F77 after seeing that image :) I really liked the colour combination and it reminds me of a Topre keyboard I have.
I have been trying to find similar keycaps compatible with the F77 but no luck.
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[attachimg=2]
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Thu, 05 August 2021, 14:48:43
Post by: jacobsoncharlie on Fri, 06 August 2021, 03:47:42
.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 06 August 2021, 16:47:44
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
tassadarforaiur what do you mean? The solenoid driver looks the same as the photos in the manual as it's from the same batch.
The right angle bracket is for the solenoid installation. A general note for everyone: please do review the manual before installing anything - to quote the first line in the manual - solenoid section: "Setting up your solenoid: please read this entire section. It is very easy to permanently damage the solenoid and driver by doing something another way." Included in the manual is a video showing a step by step guide to installing the solenoid.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/2020-07-01_16-36-50.jpg
The cables may vary. I upgraded the cables to the one with a black connector and multicolor cables, which is easier to install in the tight area of the case and back plate because the connector was smaller.
jacobsoncharlie the case and case finish are the same as what was shown in the videos and photos on the project web site going back to 2016 - if you preferred another option you could have easily selected another model. The keyboards are assorted micro USB and USB-C - the earliest PCB batch was produced at a time many years back when USB C was barely one year old and was not as widespread.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 August 2021, 13:35:13
"From what I recall, the biggest issues we had were with spacebars. Most of the keyboards would be fine, but spacebars would sometimes come loose in transit and if you didn't re-seat them carefully before setting up the system for someone, folks would either raise a support ticket to complain or try to fix the keyboard themselves, sometimes causing bigger issues. We'd set everything up in our workshop, install a Token Ring networking card and terminal software, test, and then wheel the entire system to them on a cart. We never tested that every key worked before delivery.
Keep in mind that we got the systems shipped to us on pallets directly from IBM and they were probably handled much more carefully, as they shipped together with old-school CRTs and the main CPUs. You are shipping your amazing products all around the world in individual packages and they probably get jostled around quite a bit more than what we ever had to deal with. And I'd be very surprised if IBM ever tested their packaging to what packages have to endure nowadays."
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 12 August 2021, 00:00:18
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 August 2021, 14:59:07
For more than one year the split shipping option was available (to get your in stock keyboard early if you had spare keys to use in the mean time) while I had some down time waiting for the factory to get the key sublimation going and to mail the second container shipment, but now I'm focused on getting as many in stock orders out as possible.
I've also shipped out all the all in stock orders of those who did not order a keyboard, outside of maybe those who ordered something in the past month or so. So the dates of orders that have shipped range from the beginning of the project to recent months.
I expect that beginning in the coming weeks I will start mailing out all of the remaining stuff that's "all in stock" for the folks who chose the split shipping option back then. I thank everyone again for their patience as the project is wrapped up.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 August 2021, 15:19:38
This was designed to be announced after the new Model F project ended but there was another project in the works to reproduce the beam spring module exactly (good for the purposes of spare parts for the original keyboards), so I thought it would be a good time to post. My modules are not backwards compatible with the original IBM beam spring keyboards. They have been redesigned to be used with Cherry MX type keys natively and to remove all of the wasted space in the modules and in the beam spring cases, while maintaining 100% original key travel and the same exact specifications for the fly plates, beam module footprint, etc.
For now you should check out the photos on the thread linked to below and sign up on the interest form if interested.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdR8ygHtryVYyIl_bbVbNqW9NZgh98COkkf4U7lIhejhZ-Dkw/viewform?usp=sf_link (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdR8ygHtryVYyIl_bbVbNqW9NZgh98COkkf4U7lIhejhZ-Dkw/viewform?usp=sf_link)
Please keep all beam spring discussion on this separate thread only so as not to add confusion to this current thread.
Details on the features and pricing are in these separate threads:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=26174&p=491823
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114105
Important note: To repeat what I posted on that thread, the new beam springs don't ship and are not a focus until I've sent out the new Model F Keyboards. The Model F project was not delayed to finish these beam spring keyboards. More details are in the above threads.
[attachimg=1]
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Post by: macclack on Fri, 13 August 2021, 21:23:35
Mind blown
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 16 August 2021, 12:11:46
First, the steel for the top inner assembly is laser cut (see previously posted video). Then it is stamped to shape in a huge custom-made stamper tool (as shown in this video). Then the two ends are stamped to bend them into place. The final step of this process is inspection of the angle of the stamping. After the laser cutting and stamping are complete, the top inner assembly plates will be powdercoated. You can see that one piece is kept uncurved on the table, used for the stamping tool operator as a reference for the proper direction of the stamping.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 27 August 2021, 15:10:44
The most recent post is for the new Model F project, and the post before that (both on the same page) is the update for the Brand New Beam Spring Project launch.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Some key (pun intended!) points from the introduction to the post: Do not buckle (!) under the pressure of too many words in the update!
***If you have a new shipping address please do email me to let me know your order numbers and the new address. Check your order email and our email communications (if applicable) to make sure the latest address I have on file for you is the correct one.
The major news is that I’ve QC’d and shipped out 1700+ keyboards so far and am continuing to send out keyboards. Now that the shipping is going into full speed mode, split shipping is no longer available; please hold off on split shipping requests which were designed to fill in the down time and reduce the backlog before the printed keys arrived.
I expect to continue mailing out keyboards for the rest of this year into early next year, after which the Beam Spring Keyboards will be the focus.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 30 August 2021, 12:49:35
Is anyone interested in helping this week to update the xwhatsit controller to add support for 3 LED lights and a solenoid driver at the same time?
This was brought up as a suggestion now that the Brand New Beam Spring Keyboards have 3 LEDs and some people also want a solenoid. Currently xwhatsit's header limits you to two LED lock lights if you also want to use a solenoid. This of course won't be for the first round of already-produced beam spring keyboards but will be available for the next round. Sorry Scroll Lock LED with solenoid!
The plan is to make the controller slightly wider, add 3 pins to the right side, and move most of the components rightward while keeping the ribbon cable positions, two ground pads, and USB connector exactly where they are now for backwards compatibility with the F77 and F62 keyboards.
That way the 6 pin xwhatsit header is unchanged and a spot for a 4 pin header is added to the left hand side of the controller. The 6 pin header would work the same as it does now, the new 4 pin header is for the LED expansion of existing boards, and the additional 3 ribbon cable positions are so that the next beam spring keyboards' LEDs can be attached directly through the ribbon cable and traces on the large capacative PCB instead of by wires as IBM did with the PC AT keyboard. So the boards will support both the future beam board LEDs connected by extra pins on the ribbon cable (totaling 33 positions) as well as the expansion header for existing 30 position boards. There is of course some experimentation needed - will the LED traces interfere with the capacitive sensing with all those traces at the top of the board?
Keeping clearances for the F62 and F77 bottom inner assembly plates and "arms" is also important. Photos of the installed controller: https://imgur.com/a/xaPg4Z0
Also for the new controller: I've been chatting with pandrew who suggests removing the "103" 745C101103JP chip and using the atmega's internal pull up resistors. This would require a firmware update as well, since the pull up resistors are higher value than 10k.
Here's a photo of the latest board with the smaller atmel chip: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046&p=486306&hilit=connector#p486306
Attached is the latest wcass diptrace file of the xwhatsit controller. As with the xwhatsit, of course all derivations of xwhatsit's work are GPL3 open source as well. (The gerber files are published in the project manual in case someone prefers to work in kicad or another program: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/updated_PCB_files.zip and wcass published the gerber files on another thread last year)
Any other xwhatsit PCB suggestions are of course welcome.
Post by: spear on Tue, 31 August 2021, 23:07:56
Not sure if it will help anyone, but this is how I flashed new firmware on my Linux system:
- Follow the directions in the YouTube video for using the beta QMK configurator site to customize the layout and compile new firmware, up to downloading the new firmware.
- Install dfu-programmer. For Fedora 34:
Code: [Select]
dnf install dfu-programmer
- Enter keyboard bootloader. On the keyboard, hit: <Left-Shift> + <Right-Shift> + <B>
- Check if bootloader is detected. Look for a USB device listed as "atmega32u2 DFU bootloader" (using another keyboard):
Code: [Select]
lsusb
- Erase and flash new firmware (the hex file downloaded from configurator site):
Code: [Select]
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 erase
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 flash /path/to/fw.hex
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 launch
- Disconnect, then reconnect keyboard.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 September 2021, 00:32:18
The "103" 10k resistor pack was removed as suggested by pandrew, and 5 10k resistors were added in their place (might be removed for the next revision). The updated file is attached. For the engineers out there, are there any errors? Hopefully the schematic has not changed by mistake if a line was connected incorrectly for example.
Thanks spear for your excellent guide. I've incorporated it into the project manual!
Everyone - if there's a similar guide for Mac please do share!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 September 2021, 10:22:11
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQTG_I7ytAc_0ZO-y_0jEvSG5N9DGseJyJghxBZlaFXUn52kul7frXHlfT61aRjzOGmUgnzwlSDdvzF/pub
Post by: fabiodl on Thu, 16 September 2021, 09:39:32
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 September 2021, 09:55:02
Post by: All About Jake on Thu, 23 September 2021, 17:43:29
I decided to mount a female USC-C connector in the proper place to make a removable cable. I used a part that I think is intended to relocate the USB port on a drone:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003180860375.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.70664c4dt5SswV
Update: this one I ordered seems to be not available, but a quick search on AliExpress for "HGLRC tuning adapter" shows many more sellers of the same product.
You can find the mounting bracket here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4972816
It works pretty well. I do have one question regarding the solenoid-- even with tuning the dwell time, the solenoid still misses keystrokes during fast typing. Is this expected/normal? I suspect it is, but I wanted to be sure. The wires in the USB-C kit linked above are pretty thin, but the behavior is the same with the original cable. Kinda wishing for a larger capacitor on the solenoid driver as to have a bit of a reservoir for fast keystrokes.
Again, love this keyboard. Thanks Ellipse!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 26 September 2021, 11:38:29
Are you using my adjusted firmware or firmware generated by the QMK beta web site? My firmware has the solenoid timings set to 20-30 ms, while the QMK beta web site has a setting requiring an adjustment (detailed in the manual on the project web site). With my settings, I have not been able to cause a missed solenoid stroke even with super fast random letter typing.
Post by: All About Jake on Mon, 27 September 2021, 07:50:31
Are you using my adjusted firmware or firmware generated by the QMK beta web site? My firmware has the solenoid timings set to 20-30 ms, while the QMK beta web site has a setting requiring an adjustment (detailed in the manual on the project web site). With my settings, I have not been able to cause a missed solenoid stroke even with super fast random letter typing.
Yes, I'm using your firmware, specifically for this reason. I have to look into that setting on the QMK beta site because I want remap that oddly placed numlock.
I've gotten things to work pretty well. I adjusted the throw of the solenoid such that it cycles pretty well in time with my typing style and rarely misses a keystroke during normal typing. Most of the missed strokes I can cause are caused by fast mashing of keys which seems to deplete the capacitor and then cause the solenoid to bog down.
Also I did some checking with a USB-C power meter. That "HGLRC tuning adapter" does not seem to cause a voltage drop or anything like that. Also I updated the post above with a comment about that USB-C connector thingy being no longer available. (There are plenty of identical product sellers on Ali with the search term "HGLRC tuning adapter" for anyone who's interested.)
Thanks again.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 September 2021, 13:13:29
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Post by: dustinhxc on Wed, 29 September 2021, 23:05:21
Post by: zlorfik on Thu, 30 September 2021, 02:07:26
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 October 2021, 23:45:19
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 03 October 2021, 14:46:33
Post by: sam123456 on Sun, 03 October 2021, 22:55:46
I hope to continue mailing out all the orders the rest of this year into early next year.
I'm curious if that timeline is more specific for custom/low serial number orders. Do you have an idea of how much of a queue is left on those? I think that I must be held up because I ordered a blue key-set.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 04 October 2021, 09:43:13
The expected timeline is for all keyboards, not just low serials. Yes the priority as noted earlier was to send out the "all in stock" orders, so those who ordered some items not in stock (example Industrial SSK 12 key set, F1-F12 front printed set, international language sets) will have to wait until their order is all in stock. Later this month the split shippers' in stock key sets should start going out.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 05 October 2021, 12:41:17
(http://images.knizefamily.net/keyboard-f62-dark-gray.jpg)
The two main issues were:
1) Foam that had "squirted out" of the keyboard assembly and was sticking out the side of the case. I don't think it had any functional impact.
(http://images.knizefamily.net/keyboard-f62-foam.jpg)
2) I ended up having to replace the barrel under the "." key. It had a burr sticking up where the flipper needed to rest. It looks like a small dremel or similar tool was used to remove the bit of flashing where the plastic was injected into the mold. This one still had a small burr sticking out that I think was preventing the flipper from resting completely.
(http://images.knizefamily.net/keyboard-f62-barrel.jpg)
Aside from these issues, the overall build quality is impressive. I am still quite amazed at what you have accomplished here and am looking forward to my F77 order to be fulfilled. The keys and their printing are also very nice...much better than what Unicomp typically ships
Having a factory geared-up to make these right now, it's sad to think that the project will end. It would be something to be able to release other layouts to take advantage of all the groundwork you have laid here.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 October 2021, 11:19:20
We'll go by the first two people to post a reply on either this thread or over on the DT project thread (two total keyboards across the threads). It should be moved up to ship this month, probably in the next week or so.
The only extras you'd need to order are the scumnc 3 key set on the Extra Keys page as well as the $10 US / $20 international split shipping option (as well as the True Red / Silver Gray case color upgrade if you don't have that color already and would like it) as the scumnc keys and some other keys are not yet ready.
After this, starting next week I am switching gears to mail out all the split shipping key sets that are "all in stock" - the order will be the low serials prioritized first, followed by the other orders in sequence of when you ordered.
Post by: reavy on Tue, 12 October 2021, 13:10:12
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 October 2021, 15:12:31
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
I have excerpted some of the most salient sections below:
There are not many new updates in the past month – the main focus is on continuing to mail out the keyboards and key sets, which will continue over the coming months until everything has been mailed out. Please review the prior updates below for other recent updates.
I thank everyone for their patience as I become the final bottleneck of the project, QCing and mailing out each order. I expect to continue mailing out orders for the rest of this year into early next year, so please refrain from asking me when your keyboard or key set will ship as I cannot estimate where any one order is in the queue.
Split shipments of the keys started going out this month:
For approximately one year (2020 to early 2021) there was the split shipping option, where you could get your in stock keyboard early without the included printed keys and use existing Model F or Model M keys while waiting for the new production dye sublimated keys to be ready (the first batch started shipping earlier this year). This helped folks get their keyboards earlier to start using them, as well as helped me get keyboards out early while I had some downtime, so that there would be less of a backlog once the keys were ready. Of course many keyboards with unprinted key sets also went out at that time, when their spot in the queue came up.
After testing and mailing out a whole lot of keyboards in recent months, this month I switched gears to start mailing out the “all in stock” split shipping key sets. If you ordered a key set that is not yet in stock (example: international language sets, custom extra keys, front printed keys, Industrial SSK 12 key set, etc.) then you still have to wait for everything to be in stock before the remaining items in your orders can ship. First up in the priority is all of the “all in stock” low serial project supporters, and then the “all in stock” remaining sets after that.
Once again I will note that I am incredibly appreciative of the patient community of Model F fans who have been waiting for this last piece of the puzzle, a “key” part of the project (pun intended!), to finish and who support the project’s philosophy of high quality standards even at the expense of delays. Without such a patient community, this project could have easily gone in another direction. Brand New Model F Keyboards started shipping in December 2019 and will continue shipping throughout the rest of this year into early next year, so do not be alarmed if your keyboard has not yet shipped; I haven’t forgotten about anyone! Please do read the previous posts for more details about the challenges and scary parts (!) of the journey so you can see the reasons behind the past delays and bottlenecks that held things up.
Remaining key sets to be produced:
The factory is still working on the international sets and extra keys. This year Zed and I have been reviewing and approving the sets as photos of the sample sets have been sent to me by the factory. Most of the international sets have been approved as of this point in time but the factory still needs to work on the Front Printed key sets and all the various Extra Keys, which have always been the last priority, after the main sets, HHKB sets, and Mac sets are all completed.
"Split split" shipping update - a limited option:
The remaining key sets are expected to be completed in the next 1-2 months: international sets, front printed sets (including Industrial SSK 12 key set), and all the various Extra Keys. Details behind the delays and process are below and on the blog post. There have been some requests for "split split" shipping for those who want the new Model F key sets but whose orders are not yet "all in stock" (for example, if they ordered any of the above-mentioned sets). Previously everything had to be all in stock to ship but I am now opening up a limited window for those who prefer not to wait any longer and are fine with an additional shipping cost. Again I recommend that everyone waits if possible so that there is no additional cost. For the split split option please order 10 additional units of the store item $1 increments for US shipping addresses and 20 units for international addresses, and choose free/other shipping at checkout, right before clicking Place Order. This would be something to consider if you ordered a US key set (in pearl/pebble, blue, or dark gray), HHKB 6 key set, Mac 6 key set, DVORAK or COLEMAK 4 key set (different keys nubbed for the home row), or UK set.
Of course this option doesn't let you jump the queue and expedite me mailing your keyboard if it has not been mailed already - this limited option is only for those who want keys and maybe some in stock accessories shipped ahead of time (first aid kits, solenoids, extra USB cables, barrels, flippers, springs, etc.). This option is subject to stock availability.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 October 2021, 22:15:51
I also have 230 QC rejected springs without flippers (sound characteristics are off - too high pitch) available in batches of 80, 120, or you can take the whole lot. If you prefer a changing to a higher pitch spring this is the only batch available. Again, only recommended for new Model F flippers but will possibly work with originals. Pricing is the same $1 per spring only to the first folks to contact me over email or PM, with the goal being to help defray project cost overruns. Air mail shipping seems to have significantly increased in cost per kg / lb in recent months.
Post by: blur410 on Wed, 13 October 2021, 11:51:52
Post by: LightningXI on Thu, 14 October 2021, 20:23:18
Post by: BlissOnTap on Mon, 18 October 2021, 13:29:59
Post by: Damage on Mon, 18 October 2021, 20:07:52
If so, how have folks been mounting things? I expect the metal case is conductive, so the solenoid driver probably needs to be mounted firmly and isolated from the case.
And tips or images of a successful installation would be appreciated.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 October 2021, 09:42:19
BlissOnTap glad the keys arrived safely!
Post by: Damage on Tue, 19 October 2021, 16:46:40
Damage a full photo by photo guide is in the manual on the project web site - Solenoid section :)
BlissOnTap glad the keys arrived safely!
Ok, the images are very helpful in terms of how to mount the solenoid. None of the pictures show how the solenoid driver gets mounted, though. There is a screw hole in the driver--does it mount via some screw in the case? Again, a picture would probably solve everything.
Post by: Damage on Tue, 19 October 2021, 17:48:58
Damage a full photo by photo guide is in the manual on the project web site - Solenoid section :)
BlissOnTap glad the keys arrived safely!
Ok, the images are very helpful in terms of how to mount the solenoid. None of the pictures show how the solenoid driver gets mounted, though. There is a screw hole in the driver--does it mount via some screw in the case? Again, a picture would probably solve everything.
Well, I mounted the solenoid driver with some electrical tape and put it all back together. I should have taken a picture for others to use, but I forgot.
Anyhow, this is a delightfully fun addition to an already amazing product. Thanks again for making this whole thing happen, Ellipse!
Post by: copper4eva on Sat, 23 October 2021, 14:13:16
And while I'm asking, I might as well also ask if there is a set deadline on buying the keyboard itself. But I'm mostly interested in getting some of these keycaps while I can. Especially since it appears not many opted for the blue keycaps, surprisingly. So I really wanna grab some before it becomes difficult to get some aftermarket.
Post by: blur410 on Sun, 24 October 2021, 11:09:48
Sorry if this has been answered somewhere in this massive 60 page thread, but how much long will you be accepting keycap orders? I am interested in buying some of the blue caps.
And while I'm asking, I might as well also ask if there is a set deadline on buying the keyboard itself. But I'm mostly interested in getting some of these keycaps while I can. Especially since it appears not many opted for the blue keycaps, surprisingly. So I really wanna grab some before it becomes difficult to get some aftermarket.
As far as I can tell, Ellipse does not intend the project to be unlimited in duration. That said, it would be possible to give the tooling to Unicomp if they were willing to pay for the shipping from China. And it's not like the tooling is simply going to vaporize. While the keyboard main assemblies could likely be produced forever, the cases use a lot of metal that has been rapidly going up in price worldwide and a large influx of orders for the cases would be quite unprofitable long term thanks to the pandemic. For keycaps, Unicomp has existed for over 20 years and I doubt it would suddenly disappear tomorrow. And the tooling would still exist in China for either Fentek or another random Chinese manufacturer to suddenly acquire it and produce the caps in small quantities as there is still a big keyboard market in the Far East(where the modern keyboard craze began in the late 90's unlike in the US where keyboards didn't reach the same level of popularity until 2011 or so).
Ellipse also has other projects in mind to do after this buy like the Beamspring reproduction keyboards and possibly other creations he hasn't committed to yet like a potential spherical keycap set for buckling spring. So after those projects are done he may even revisit another run of the New Model F's as they seem to have been quite popular particularly for a bespoke keyboard project, assuming he is still alive in a few years and as to why he isn't getting anyones hopes up promising anything. But as others have said before, the day this group buy ends will certainly be the end of an era as it is still the longest running group buy on deskthority and geekhack.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 October 2021, 11:53:00
The factory is making a small batch of these colors. The project web site will be updated with these color options over the coming days. Please email/PM me if you'd like to switch out the case for an existing order of yours that has not yet shipped. These will be premium color offerings of about the same upgrade cost as the other premium color options offered ($75).
copper4eva we are still not yet in the final round so there is definitely time to order later on, so if you are looking to get anything I strongly recommend ordering as soon as it is possible for you to do so, in order to guarantee that you receive what you are looking for.
Currently the "all in stock" small orders and remaining key sets from the "separate shipping" folks have been going out as I switched gears from sending out keyboards for the time being. The factory is still in production of the remaining international and custom key sets like the Industrial SSK 12 key set, the front print sets, and international sets.
As noted from the start, this is a limited run project, which now has an enormous time commitment of years more than expected on my part. My goal is to get out the remaining orders and have a final round, expected early next year. Also next year I want to mail out all the new beam spring keyboards.
After Model F production shuts down I have noted before that the tooling will not be sold or given to others. The most important part of the project is my quality control standards, even more so than the tooling - requiring an enormous time commitment of inspecting and retesting every keyboard one at a time before it can go out. I'd rather see fewer Model F's out there than mass-produced, substandard keyboards that bear the Model F design and moniker.
And yes material costs have risen significantly - just look at the price charts for aluminum, zinc, etc. compared to months/years ago. I expect that further price increases will be inevitable in the current round and final round. Already prices on keyboards and some accessories have gone up 10% - 100% in recent times.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 October 2021, 15:46:25
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 November 2021, 18:48:43
The new firmware is confirmed backwards compatible with the old controllers so it is fortunately not necessary to have two different versions for different hardware - thanks again to pandrew! I will update the files on the project web site in the next month or so.
I am still looking to add the LED+solenoid support to the next xwhatsit controller design, if anyone is interested in helping: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046&p=492661&sid=8d3057b2d5ca777e597b8151aa616e13#p492661
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 07 November 2021, 21:13:25
https://github.com/purdeaandrei/ibm_capsense_usb_mods
As a note, the only update was a change to allow the forthcoming xwhatsit controllers with internal pull-up resistors to function correctly. Both old and new xwhatsit controllers will run on the same new firmware versions for QMK and xwhatsit. Unless you want to try a beta firmware, it is not necessary to update to either version as there are no other feature updates.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 November 2021, 11:55:59
I am sharing (with permission) another nice color combination that someone sent me, with the plan to install the custom 12 Key Industrial SSK set when it is ready (the factory is still wrapping up the remaining custom keys and sets and should wrap things up by year end - the approval process has taken longer than expected for these sets but I'd rather see adequately-aligned sets before rapid sublimation can start - every offered key set style has its alignment and content checked to make sure it is good, before the remaining sets can be sublimated).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 29 November 2021, 09:02:24
Quote
Some people have asked if there was a standard for naming keys.
I thought that was a valid question, and here is an answer.
The W3C publishes the main web standards, and it includes standards for referring to both physical keys
and the different meanings associated with pressing one or more of those keys.
From the docs:
CODE
code holds a string that identifies the physical key being pressed.
The value is not affected by the current keyboard layout or modifier state,
so a particular key will always return the same value.
KEY
A key string that corresponds to the character typed by the user, taking into account the user’s current locale setting,
modifier state, and any system-level keyboard mapping overrides that are in effect.
It is acceptable for multiple keys on a keyboard to generate the same key attribute value
Code and Key standards:
https://www.w3.org/TR/uievents-code/
https://www.w3.org/TR/uievents-key/
The motivation and the system behind it:
https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#events-keyboardevents
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 29 November 2021, 09:37:10
it's awesome, thanks ellipse
Post by: atzemis13 on Wed, 01 December 2021, 10:58:56
I am sharing (with permission) another nice color combination that someone sent me, with the plan to install the custom 12 Key Industrial SSK set when it is ready (the factory is still wrapping up the remaining custom keys and sets and should wrap things up by year end - the approval process has taken longer than expected for these sets but I'd rather see adequately-aligned sets before rapid sublimation can start - every offered key set style has its alignment and content checked to make sure it is good, before the remaining sets can be sublimated).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Is this a an off white/beige case or a special color? Looks almost light gray, I really like the combo with the gray keys.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 01 December 2021, 12:48:26
As an update I posted another one of the monthly updates on the project web site. Not too much new with this update, as orders continue to go out. The factory expects to finish up the remaining international sets and other key sets this month, after significant delays.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Post by: Kookiekurls on Sat, 11 December 2021, 02:24:45
First, the website and this thread is filled with so much information, that it’s hard to figure out what’s important and what isn’t. For example, I needed to update my shipping address. I had to go to a post on your blog on November 30th to see that I need to email you, but your email isn’t included there. The only place I could find an email address was in the footer of the website, which was covered by an alert and a “accept cookies” popover. I think it might be helpful if the email address was a little easier to find.
Second, I think that saying that you have no idea when people’s orders will ship can make people nervous. I made my order almost a year and a half ago. It would be nice to have at least some rough ETA.
The correspondence about the keycaps and legends can sometimes be confusing for me. I’m not sure if we are waiting for legends to be printed, or if it’s only certain languages that are the issue. There’s been so many posts in this geek hack thread, and the posts are kind of difficult to understand. When I read through them, I’m not really sure it’s clear to me what the current status is
Lastly, I get the general sense from everything that you’ve taken on a bit more than you can handle. You are still accepting new orders and creating new products, but people have mentioned in the thread not receiving their orders for 2-3 years. There seems to be multiple bottlenecks, but then you just recently announced a new beam spring project and new color combos. I think people are just a bit concerned.
I tried to write this in a way that didn’t express anger. More just concern and my general thoughts. I’m really hoping for the best and I can imagine you have a lot on your plate. I think cleaning up things that have gotten a bit cluttered with too much info like the website and making your future update posts more concise would go a long way. as well as more clearly expressing ETAs for orders so people at least have some sort of idea. And making it a bit easier to find the email address would be nice. Thank you!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 December 2021, 09:21:28
As noted on the blog, the delays have historically been both factory delays and delays due to the final bottleneck of the project - me - as I continue getting out the orders. The factory is wrapping up dye sublimation of the remaining key sets this month, as noted in the latest blog entry. The last sets to be sublimated are all the international language sets as well as all of the front-printed sets and custom one-off type keys and sets.
As noted several times, the new beam spring project is in no way delaying the current project and it is only starting to accept orders after I have sent out the Model F keyboard orders. There has definitely been some down time in the project, including before late 2019 when the factory finished up the first container shipment and when we were waiting for the first batch of the dye sub caps to finish, so I was able to work on this other project without it being a bottleneck. I've also been able to work on other small stuff like IBM XT/122/107/AT style foam, additional beam spring controllers, the solenoid drivers and custom made solenoids, and the transparent relegendable caps.
Yes it is definitely a lot to take in and process for those not following the project closely but if anyone has any questions feel free to post here or contact me directly through PM.
Post by: Kookiekurls on Sat, 11 December 2021, 15:47:35
Thank you for your feedback. So far I have tested and mailed more than 1,900 keyboards and will continue mailing keyboards this year and early next year until they have all gone out. The reasons behind the long waits have been documented in detail on the updates page of the project web site. You are correct that I cannot estimate when a particular order is expected to go out, but all the remaining orders and keyboards will be going out over the coming months, probably for the next six to seven months or so for me to get out the rest of the orders. I thank everyone for their patience as these great keyboards are brought back into production, even though it has taken far longer than expected.
As noted on the blog, the delays have historically been both factory delays and delays due to the final bottleneck of the project - me - as I continue getting out the orders. The factory is wrapping up dye sublimation of the remaining key sets this month, as noted in the latest blog entry. The last sets to be sublimated are all the international language sets as well as all of the front-printed sets and custom one-off type keys and sets.
As noted several times, the new beam spring project is in no way delaying the current project and it is only starting to accept orders after I have sent out the Model F keyboard orders. There has definitely been some down time in the project, including before late 2019 when the factory finished up the first container shipment and when we were waiting for the first batch of the dye sub caps to finish, so I was able to work on this other project without it being a bottleneck. I've also been able to work on other small stuff like IBM XT/122/107/AT style foam, additional beam spring controllers, the solenoid drivers and custom made solenoids, and the transparent relegendable caps.
Yes it is definitely a lot to take in and process for those not following the project closely but if anyone has any questions feel free to post here or contact me directly through PM.
Thank you so much, this was really helpful
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 28 December 2021, 18:08:57
Also today I approved production of the new transparent relegendable keys, based on the samples from this shipment. They are made of strong polycarbonate and are super clear. So far 981 have been ordered as of today. I still have a bunch more than that available.
You may be wondering what is the secret code on each key set bag - it is the production code. 2 digit year and 2 digit week number (e.g. 2130 indicates production in the 30th week of 2021).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Lu_e on Sat, 01 January 2022, 17:36:06
Happy New Year.
Post by: sixdeuces on Sun, 02 January 2022, 10:52:19
My patience remains.
Someday I will see my keyboard. Someday...
*looks wistfully into the distance*
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 January 2022, 22:20:25
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Brand New Model F January 2022 Update – wrapping up the shipments of the second container shipment, third container shipment with the remaining keys and keyboards going out around end of January, and more!
Third container shipment almost ready to go!
As we start the new year 2022, I am almost entirely wrapped up with the shipments of keyboards and in stock accessories that arrived earlier this year with the second container shipment and in various express air shipments. A number of the keyboards that arrived in prior container shipments arrived with significant case damage, incorrect variation number labels, while others did not match the specifications of that variation (different color, layout, etc.) and some failed my testing requiring complete replacement of certain assemblies. So as to avoid delays and get as many keyboards out as soon as possible, I prioritized mailing out all of the “good to go” keyboards and then the other keyboards, and this month I will be spending time repairing these other keyboards and replacing entire circuitry (controller+ribbon cable+large capacitive PCB+USB cable) to continue getting out the keyboards. Recently the replacement parts arrived by express mail from the factory.
I want to note that the factory’s delay this year with production and assembly of these remaining keyboards of the early bird round was in no way a bottleneck for the 2021 keyboard shipping as the key sets and I were the two bottlenecks for the year – I was still (and still am) getting out keyboards and accessories from the prior container shipments. The only other remaining bottleneck since last year is the custom and international key sets and one-off type keys which required extensive quality control especially with all the special characters on the top and bottom areas of the key top surfaces, all of which are being finished up this month (some have already been completed). By the time I am done there will not be much downtime as we wait for the next container shipment to arrive to me. Prior to February 2021 we were still waiting on the factory to complete the new XT quality dye sublimation; orders with sublimated keys only started going out less than one year ago – will be going full speed once everything from the factory arrives (keys, etc.). The remaining sublimated keys should be completed in the coming weeks. For these reasons, I expect the pace to be far faster than it has been previously while needing to wait for sublimated keys to arrive. Once again I thank everyone for their patience with the factory and with me as I go through the backlog.
While I was busy getting everything out, the factory has been very busy producing the remaining dye sublimated key sets (including the international, front printed, and miscellaneous smaller sets and individual keys) as well as finishing assembly of the next batch of keyboards that are part of the early bird round of this project, many of which are the ISO-type keyboards and key sets that some of you have been patiently waiting for. This will all be going out as part of the third container shipment, which was not expected (initially the expectation was one round all in one container shipment, but waiting for everything to be finished would have significantly delayed the project even more). The third container shipment of all these parts and keyboards was delayed significantly this year and should be going out around the end of this month (January 2022), arriving to me around the end of March 2022, depending on port congestion. This is about a month later than what the factory was expecting in November, as noted in the prior update. It will then take several months for me to send out the remaining keyboards from this batch, which will finally bring me up to date without a backlog at that point. In other words, I expect to wrap up getting all the orders out over the coming 6-7 months from now. In this upcoming shipment, the factory is hoping to get in all the remaining keyboards that were not completed before the earlier container shipments departed the port. We are still in the early bird round; the final round is expected to start later this year. After my backlog is all gone and I’m caught up, I’m expected to open the window to order the Brand New Beam Spring Keyboards (half of the first batch of 300 is in stock currently, with the other half shipping and arriving to me in a few months from now). Please do sign up on the Beam Spring interest form noted below as that is the only way to reserve your spot in line for a Beam Spring keyboard.
And as some of you have asked me, it’s not really possible to estimate how long it will take to get up to a particular point in the backlog line because it depends on how quickly a keyboard can pass my final QC inspection and how quickly I can repair it if needed, along with the complexity of particular orders (putting together additional accessories and individual keys) slowing down the throughput time. However as noted above it should take a few months once the next batch is in hand for me to go through it, now that I won’t be waiting for parts to complete an order (so it is “all in stock”) at that time. Many folks ordered another keyboard and/or additional accessories in separate orders later on, which usually means these later orders can move ahead in line and ship in the same package as their earliest shipment. Over the past two years of mailing keyboards, some days it seems like everyone might have ordered extras while other days I can (relatively) zoom through keyboard-only orders. Either way a keyboard typically takes ~20-30 minutes to fully inspect, program, repair if needed, get the packing slip and keyboard/box birthday labels, and ship, and that time does not count gathering accessories. An electric counting scale is a big help, especially for those who order 100+ extra flippers with springs 🙂
Updates on die cast tooling
Due to the skyrocketing price of raw materials in recent years, in 2021 the project switched over to die casting instead of CNC milling each of the compact cases, despite the significant cost of the new tooling. Now both case types (compact and classic style) are die cast, not just the classic style cases which were die cast from the start of mass production. This allowed us to make the cases one solid aluminum piece + the bottom plate instead of two CNC milled aluminum pieces and the bottom plate, thus improving the construction quality of the cases. With the old design, the case screws had only 1-2mm of threads in the top part of the aluminum cases. Now the screws have several more mm of threads which should make them even more solid. (The flat bottom compact case plates are still CNC milled as it is just a flat plate)
Besides that extra parting line, the case design is identical to the original cases and inner assemblies can be switched from one case to the other. The factory completed the die cast tooling and production for the aluminum, ultra-compact cases last year. These cases will be used starting with this third container shipment.
Also by popular demand the compact cases have switched to the tougher powdercoating finish mentioned before, using a paint that most closely resembles the anodized look of the originals, as much as is possible by paint. While the anodized look of the keyboards is really nice as well, an even tougher coating should allow the newer keyboards to hold up cosmetically even longer than the anodized cases which have less scratch resistance.
Update on zinc case powdercoating
For the classic style zinc cases, the factory has gone with an improved, reformulated powdercoating finish that retains the full texture and finish of the original IBM powdercoated Model F keyboards. This should make the cases a bit more durable than those in the earlier two container shipments, though I still chose to avoid offering the ultra-tough modern powdercoating on the original style cases in order to keep the reproductions in line with the originals in appearance. As with any textured, uncoated paint the case finishes will continue to wear down over time just like the IBM originals, but should hold up better to usage.
Requests for help and expertise
I am still looking for some help on updating the open source xwhatsit controller PCB design and ideas for beam module pullers (for my updated beam module design) – please see my prior update post for more details.
What are the other very minor changes in the current shipment?
As noted earlier the bottom and top inner assemblies were modified a tiny amount to allow for a slightly tighter “sandwich” which I believe will offer a slight improvement in the snappiness of the XT-quality typing experience. Full compatibility has been maintained with existing cases and inner assembly parts so you can replace your inner assembly if needed, or switch between new and old cases and mix between old and new inner assembly plates.
The golden yellow finish of the older batch of bottom inner assembly steel plates (and of the IBM originals) has changed to a bluer finish due to a recent factory error. Since it’s inside the keyboard and not really seen I did not want to delay all the keyboards by 1-2 additional months to remanufacture these parts. For the final round I expect to go back to the original color.
The boxes have become a few inches larger to accommodate fitting a full key set inside the box. The artwork remains the same. Previously I put the key sets in separate boxes even if they were ordered with a keyboard.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 January 2022, 22:37:33
Since I'm not willing to cut the cost or quality of the keyboard itself I expect to focus on redesigning the packaging to be more efficient while still protecting the keyboards. The polystyrene IBM style packaging is alas probably going to be gone, replaced by the foam material and design currently used by the compact case keyboards (I am open to packaging suggestions).
This will allow the boxes to be smaller, which will reduce final round cost increases due to container shipping costs (delivering to me) and shipping costs to the customer (due to shipping weight savings of maybe 1-2 pounds-it adds up when shipping thousands of keyboards), which have skyrocketed more than 30% since last year for many international destinations. This week international shipping went up $15 for the project. Also to save weight I may have to bring the boxes down to high quality but single walled.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 January 2022, 16:02:46
[attachimg=1]
It is a special additional key from a Norwegian set (as noted in the key set renderings on the "full key set" store page, many of the international sets come with extra keys that are slightly different, to accommodate the more variable keyboard legend options)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 16 January 2022, 12:33:42
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos
This photo also shows the more authentic XT style foam being used for the current container shipment, as opposed to the foam used for prior shipments. As the new foam is less dense, I expect it will result in sound quality that is slightly less muffled, but this may not be noticeable. For those who prefer the higher sound dampening properties of the older foam, all of the extra foam is still that style (there is no option to get extras of the XT style foam at this time, besides the foam for the IBM XT keyboard itself which is still available).
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 January 2022, 22:18:32
Once again thanks to everyone for their patience as the factory wraps things up.
The schedule for this year is that after the backlog is done, the Brand New Beam Spring keyboards first round will go out, and then we still have the final round later this year for the F62/F77. After that will be the slightly more costly beam spring keyboard round with the case redesign and increased sound dampening).
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 20 January 2022, 10:43:28
Here are some more photos from the keyboard assembly process. Several hundred thousand parts needed to be assembled for the current container shipment leaving at month end. As shown in one of the videos on the project's YouTube channel, the final inner assembly step is for the custom made pneumatic machine to press the bottom inner assembly with PCB onto the other parts.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos
This photo also shows the more authentic XT style foam being used for the current container shipment, as opposed to the foam used for prior shipments. As the new foam is less dense, I expect it will result in sound quality that is slightly less muffled, but this may not be noticeable. For those who prefer the higher sound dampening properties of the older foam, all of the extra foam is still that style (there is no option to get extras of the XT style foam at this time, besides the foam for the IBM XT keyboard itself which is still available).
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
oh i missed these photos, these are cool. thanks for sharing, and thanks for all your diligent updating!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 23 January 2022, 21:04:42
Today the factory finished the first 200 F1-F12 front print sets which they expect to air mail me this week so I can mail out to those who aren't waiting for anything else anymore and are just waiting for those keys. They're working on the Industrial SSK blue 12 key sets with the hope that they also are included in this week's air shipment. The remaining key sets and custom keys will be worked on while the container ship is sailing and will then be air mailed to me.
Also I'm not sure if I will gift wrap every order in gray plastic wrap. For a couple thousand keyboards that would save the equivalent of one week just in packing time. Many folks would personally prefer gift wrapping so as not to have a shipping label on the product box but I don't want to hold up everyone's orders since everyone has been waiting a while.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 January 2022, 11:45:47
For this batch, a 40' (!) container is filled to the edge, though the pallets are not double stacked (they are extra tall pallets and so could not be double stacked) so there is a few feet of clearance on top as shown in the photos. Prior container shipments were 20' or LCL.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5][attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7][attachimg=8]
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[attachimg=15][attachimg=16]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 January 2022, 23:17:18
If interested in black pad printed Model F / Model M keys please sign the interest form here: https://forms.gle/qnUATUrng8bX9Qxt8
Also I am sending out the email newsletter today and tomorrow, in batches (not to everyone at once) - here is a web copy for those who may not receive it by email: https://mailchi.mp/c84fd8bca891/brand-new-model-f-keyboards-2022-update
A summary for those who have not been following the updates as closely:
Production on the latest batch of keyboards and accessories finally finished this month. All the remaining orders were loaded into a shipping container this week and will be arriving to me in early March, when I will then be spending months to go through the remaining backlog, personally testing and mailing each order. The backlog will remain through mid-year in my estimate. See the newsletter for details on what this means for your orders
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 January 2022, 16:11:24
The keys came out well. As a note the alignment for the front printing is not as strong as the top alignment - this was true even for the IBM sublimated keys. The front printing has proven to be extremely difficult to even get to this point. The Industrial SSK blue 12 key sets and all the other front print sets will be completed over the coming weeks after the factory returns from their break.
New Model F production keys are on top of my IBM F122:
[attachimg=1]
This photo shows two example IBM-sublimated keys on my F122 - note the varying angles and thicknesses of the front printing even for IBM:
[attachimg=2]
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 02 February 2022, 06:39:09
Looking forward to them
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 03 February 2022, 15:59:20
Yes Lightning - to be clear the sublimated US key sets started shipping in February 2021 and only recently have most of the other sets been completed. The Industrial SSK 12 key sets and the custom Extra Keys are the only remaining ones that the factory will finish up in the weeks after returning from break.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 February 2022, 13:52:01
https://twitter.com/i/status/1467896098861817858
Post by: blur410 on Wed, 23 February 2022, 19:52:06
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 24 February 2022, 08:51:58
For the black keys dont forget HHKB compatibility. And since they are pad printed, will you be offering front side pad prints?
Asking the real questions here. That's exactly what I mentioned in the little survey he sent out. Might as well fix the flaws that ended production of the black caps to begin with, if feasible/practical.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 February 2022, 10:36:33
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 24 February 2022, 11:06:36
Confirmed on the HHKB compatibility but no front printing for the pad printing as it would double production time and cost.
I hope you get some decent sales on that variant then. I know I'll pass without front printing, which is a shame since black caps are great.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 March 2022, 19:28:47
Also Zed has just created the F13-F24 keys for those F122 and M122 users - now available on the extra keys page.
Post by: konstantin on Sat, 05 March 2022, 20:12:37
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 March 2022, 20:49:47
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 06 March 2022, 04:29:15
Yes confirmed
Thanks for confirming!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 March 2022, 01:48:55
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 March 2022, 16:56:58
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 March 2022, 12:26:42
Please do share your feedback on this feature as it may have bugs.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 March 2022, 20:43:13
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 March 2022, 00:17:50
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Not specific to this project but here is an interesting video I came across showing how shipping containers are so efficiently moved about at a port:
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 27 March 2022, 10:56:41
First to PM me and complete payment will get it!
You only get what is pictured - no extra keys, no 0-9 keys, etc. Ultra Compact F77, ANSI style layout, with only the pictured dark gray printed keys. Bumpers have been installed to the bottom.
The keyboard as configured sells for $454 new. Given the missing parts I will list it for $400 + $99 immediate shipping priority = $499 shipped within the US (additional shipping charges same as the project rates: Canada: $48.92. Rest of World: $74.69. Non-Contiguous US: $25.)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 March 2022, 00:19:39
Black pad printed keys update: I am working with a factory that is still looking into the pad printing. As a reminder please sign up on the Google form below if you want to reserve your spot to get a black pad printed set. Given all the setup costs for each production batch I may only produce one batch of a few hundred sets.
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=498535&sid=96cea386d8e9b9841ade1506b1072907#p498535
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 March 2022, 18:39:51
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 March 2022, 22:36:14
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
(https://miro.medium.com/max/999/1*_yLPwLk129MAHJnZjMHidw.jpeg)
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 29 March 2022, 12:07:13
Post by: rknize on Thu, 31 March 2022, 12:44:33
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 31 March 2022, 13:42:37
I am still quite amazed at how many of these got made in the end.
I'm glad I bought an F107 before they started shipping. ;D It is now suddenly the rare variant, as expected.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 31 March 2022, 18:51:59
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 April 2022, 11:41:15
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/44fl4s/ibm_model_m_buckling_spring_ps2_keyboard/
Model M keyboards that came with coordinate measuring machines (CMMs)
"As for one of the objects (the intercom), this is one of his comments; "It was used for an old destination control system at an IBM office with banks of elevators. Instead of pressing up and down arrows, getting in and then pressing the button in the elevator, you would press the button and tell a dispatcher which floor. They would then tell you which elevator to use, and you get in and don't have to press anything. They would know what floor everyone wanted to go to, and would optimize it so that every elevator would stop at the least amount of floors, grouping people together as efficiently as possible.""
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 April 2022, 10:37:34
The Industrial SSK 12 Key sets look great - I would say they are even an upgrade over the IBM/Lexmark Model M originals. As always please disregard the colors (cell phone photos). I am glad the factory focused extra effort on making sure these sets look as good as they do, even though this resulted in a delay for these keys. The Front Printing was by far the most difficult part of the dye sublimation and it took more than one year to get it right.
That means that many of the orders containing these sets can start shipping this week!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Post by: Versaknight on Mon, 11 April 2022, 11:10:13
Post by: qeebored on Wed, 13 April 2022, 17:52:56
If I've understood the information correctly, I can split the 2.25u left shift on a HHKB layout into an 1.25u ISO shift and an 1u key, I just need to order the extra keycaps, a barrel, and a flipper?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 April 2022, 19:05:26
There are various international sets thanks to Zed - they are listed on the F62 and F77 product pages.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 April 2022, 11:42:30
Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks? Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers. After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed.
It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040. The question is, is it better to go with KMK? How stable is it? It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready. Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware
What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip? Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?
Post by: qeebored on Thu, 14 April 2022, 17:18:53
Yes confirmed. Or you can order any ISO configured keyboard and the layout will automatically reflect ISO.
There are various international sets thanks to Zed - they are listed on the F62 and F77 product pages.
Thanks for the quick response. I guess the keymap in QMK has to be updated for the extra key, but I think that would be manageable.
I like the HHKB layout, but after getting used to the Colemak angle and fat-z mods, I prefer the angle mod with 'z' on the ISO key instead of the fat-z mod where 'z' is in the place of the left shift. On my HHKB, I use the Hasu USB-to-USB converter to make the left shift output 'z' on tap, and shift on hold, but I wish it rather had an ISO shift cluster...
Post by: sam123456 on Fri, 15 April 2022, 23:51:32
Post by: Rico on Sat, 16 April 2022, 09:38:55
Question for all the coders:
Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks? Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers. After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed.
It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040. The question is, is it better to go with KMK? How stable is it? It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready. Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware
What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip? Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?
Hello Ellipse,
Please let me try to answer your questions the best I can as a non-expert/hobbyist guy.
About KMK.
Never wrote a KMK firmware but had a quick look at the repository source code and a few keyboard firmwares.
It looks to be very easy to write a custom firmware with KMK and the code is very compact and readable.
KMK needs quite a lot of memory but the RP2040 has plenty of it so it is not a big deal.
KMK caveats:
1) Firmware is written in Python, so any modification to the key layout means modifying python code.
Not a big deal for a seasoned developper as KMK developpers made their best to be an easy process, but can be a blocker for non-programmers.
2) No VIA/VIAL support currently.
And again non-programmers may be reluctant to dive in python source code for any key layout modifications.
KarlK90 version of QMK:
He looks to have done a pretty good job to add most of the needed features.
A thing that could be a miss is the lack of EEPROM emulation (using flash storage), but easily compensated by using an external EEPROM chip.
Now I did not tested that is was indeed working.
About the amount of work to port to RP2040 MCU:
An xwhasit like PCB need to be designed, tested and a firmware written for it.
As for the hardware differences the most obvious is the operating voltage (3.3V for the RP2040, 5V for an ATMEGA).
Tom Wong-Cornall (the designer of xwhasit PCB and firmware) was unsure in this blog if his technique would work sufficiently well with 3.3V output instead of 5V.
If the answer is yes his design could be simplified a bit by getting rid of the two 74AHC595 shift register controllers and drive the thing directly with the RP2040 IO pins.
Otherwise those shift registers will need to stay and the PCB design will have to be modified to use mixed (3.3V and 5V) voltages as RP2040 IO pins are not 5V tolerant.
That looks a significant amount of work but at the same same time looks very exiting to do :D
IMO RP2040 most compelling features is not its current availability, but its PIO feature that could be used for efficiently reading the outputs of the comparators.
And of course there is its incredible price and the fact that it is a dual core beast ;)
The alternative:
Gondolindrim has done quite a lot of research on capacitive sensing for keyboards and came recently with a very interesting design that he discussed about on Twitch.
He focused on Topre-like capasitive sensing and the solution looks quite advanced.
See this GH thread here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105035.150
He also did a lot of work to mitigate MCUs frequent shortages and came with a multi-MCU (STM32 based) compatible template called Joker.
I see more and more PCB designers using Gondo's Joker template recently and it has been proven to work well for it's TKL PCB designs, some used by Geon.
More info here:
http://acheronproject.com/joker_mcus/joker/
Hope I've been of any help.
PS:
You've made be want to dive into this problem :p
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 April 2022, 10:45:59
Question for all the coders:
Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks? Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers. After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed.
It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040. The question is, is it better to go with KMK? How stable is it? It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready. Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware
What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip? Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?
Hello Ellipse,
Please let me try to answer your questions the best I can as a non-expert/hobbyist guy.
About KMK.
Never wrote a KMK firmware but had a quick look at the repository source code and a few keyboard firmwares.
It looks to be very easy to write a custom firmware with KMK and the code is very compact and readable.
KMK needs quite a lot of memory but the RP2040 has plenty of it so it is not a big deal.
KMK caveats:
1) Firmware is written in Python, so any modification to the key layout means modifying python code.
Not a big deal for a seasoned developper as KMK developpers made their best to be an easy process, but can be a blocker for non-programmers.
2) No VIA/VIAL support currently.
And again non-programmers may be reluctant to dive in python source code for any key layout modifications.
KarlK90 version of QMK:
He looks to have done a pretty good job to add most of the needed features.
A thing that could be a miss is the lack of EEPROM emulation (using flash storage), but easily compensated by using an external EEPROM chip.
Now I did not tested that is was indeed working.
About the amount of work to port to RP2040 MCU:
An xwhasit like PCB need to be designed, tested and a firmware written for it.
As for the hardware differences the most obvious is the operating voltage (3.3V for the RP2040, 5V for an ATMEGA).
Tom Wong-Cornall (the designer of xwhasit PCB and firmware) was unsure in this blog if his technique would work sufficiently well with 3.3V output instead of 5V.
If the answer is yes his design could be simplified a bit by getting rid of the two 74AHC595 shift register controllers and drive the thing directly with the RP2040 IO pins.
Otherwise those shift registers will need to stay and the PCB design will have to be modified to use mixed (3.3V and 5V) voltages as RP2040 IO pins are not 5V tolerant.
That looks a significant amount of work but at the same same time looks very exiting to do :D
IMO RP2040 most compelling features is not its current availability, but its PIO feature that could be used for efficiently reading the outputs of the comparators.
And of course there is its incredible price and the fact that it is a dual core beast ;)
The alternative:
Gondolindrim has done quite a lot of research on capacitive sensing for keyboards and came recently with a very interesting design that he discussed about on Twitch.
He focused on Topre-like capasitive sensing and the solution looks quite advanced.
See this GH thread here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105035.150
He also did a lot of work to mitigate MCUs frequent shortages and came with a multi-MCU (STM32 based) compatible template called Joker.
I see more and more PCB designers using Gondo's Joker template recently and it has been proven to work well for it's TKL PCB designs, some used by Geon.
More info here:
http://acheronproject.com/joker_mcus/joker/
Hope I've been of any help.
PS:
You've made be want to dive into this problem :p
Thanks Rico, very helpful!
I guess one question would be, could the new RP2040-based controller hardware design be futureproofed to allow QMK to run on it in the future since adding support for the RP2040 is currently in progress. Or would we have to wait for QMK's update to be finished before doing mass production?
A quick look shows a similar scarcity with the STM chips, including the one mentioned in the Joker template link.
Post by: Rico on Sat, 16 April 2022, 12:16:28
It looks both ChibiOS and QMK team are working on having support for RP2040, but for an accurate answer (and maybe timelines) we may ask to QMK devs.
For VIA an official QMK support is sorta needed, at least if you want the PCB to be recognised directly by the VIA software without having to provide a VIA .json file.
For VIAL as everything is self-contained into the firmware this is not absolutely mandatory (if for example the KalrK90 branch work).
But of course it is always better to have official QMK support.
STM32 chips also have shortage problem, but the Joker template allows to pick between 10 to 20 variants of MCUs depending on stock (and reserve them).
This is far from perfect but at least it prevents to re-design the PCB several times depending on stock availability.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 April 2022, 19:19:18
Here is a photo showing the new tougher powdercoating option on the compact cases that was mentioned several months ago. Dark Blue and Carolina (Light) Blue are shown below.
For compact keyboards shipping this year, everyone gets the new improved option instead of the anodized option which was more easy to scratch. The new cases are also from the brand new die cast aluminum molds as noted before (makes the case two piece instead of three piece) The new cases are fully compatible with the older batch of internals in case anyone wanted to upgrade.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Glod on Sun, 24 April 2022, 18:06:09
Post by: Glod on Mon, 25 April 2022, 10:54:32
Brand new Colemak F77 reporting for duty :O
And here is an album with some more photos :)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JUTuwa9n8V6rpfDT9
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVxEVOuCfABmZKl-pkOuY7zVbCe8nr0cQZ2jGSH756oj6b1_k2_OOBZgl2Qe0buRQnM-lqdKscjiK1BL5yeVhpvk2B32OwElOFPVGvDZukdezjYUmtmgQmiRuy35DEEwZhW95qBIQEiVKgXA8s1Hwpm=w1297-h659-no)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 April 2022, 11:14:15
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 April 2022, 11:46:19
Given the chip shortage the original xwhatsit solenoid driver cannot be produced at the moment, so I am looking to switch to pandrew's updated xwhatsit-based solenoid driver. It is great that pandrew updated the driver back in 2020 to use more widely available parts.
pandrew has noted that any solenoid that works on the original xwhatsit driver should theoretically work on the new driver but to be safe has anyone done any testing with the pandrew driver and my solenoids?
Post by: Glod on Mon, 25 April 2022, 13:19:34
Very nice photos Glod! Which USB cable is that, if I may ask?
This one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PDH35H8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
It connects with my other quick disconnect ones https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09498J8ZJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 April 2022, 18:08:59
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 27 April 2022, 20:51:21
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 April 2022, 14:23:56
The Via firmware has been updated due to a bug - all the QMK and Via firmware is in the below file also linked to in the manual on the project web site.
Link to the firmware files: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/QMK-layout-files.zip
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 01 May 2022, 14:42:03
As an update, more than 570 keyboards from the current container shipment have shipped after the container shipment arrived and was organized in the past month or so, along with several hundred non-keyboard orders and remaining parts from split shipping requests.
We are still waiting on the factory for some of the remaining international key sets and custom keys (many have arrived and have been going out) so that is why the "all in stock" orders continue to take priority; the split shipping option is no longer available.
Please note that not all orders that are all in stock can ship right away, as there is still a backlog I have to go through.
There are about 1255 ordered keyboards remaining to ship (about 3800 new Model F keyboards have been ordered in total so far for this project). My expectation remains as before, that I can expect to move through the rest of the backlog in May, June, and July. As noted before, it is not possible to project the timeline 100% based on last month's progress as each order takes a different amount of time and orders with many individual extra keys will take much longer to process, and many of the remaining orders are disproportionately ones that have such keys while the "all in stock" orders have been able to go out already.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 01 May 2022, 19:40:49
"I found a great video demonstrating what some of IBM’s terminal keys did on a real system.
The title on YT is “IBM 3178 Terminal Operations and Use demonstration” by Carl Claunch
A side note, the “Reset” key works the same as the “Error Reset” key found on other terminals. It dates back to the punch card days; I can link you a manual that details further if you wish.
The IBM 3101’s keyboard has a compartment for storing documentation. Perhaps you could ask if someone still has a pamphlet they might have found in there."
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 05 May 2022, 19:08:08
https://www.reddit.com/r/modelm/comments/uefex8/my_mopar_blue_keycaps_have_finally_arived_from/
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 08 May 2022, 22:13:33
"I ordered a whole set of the IBM Wheelwriter 3 keys, and I started putting some of them on the Model F.
The Code key is the size of a regular right shift key; it is 2" long. It does not fit where the right shift goes however, as the bottom stems are in different locations compared to a shift key.
I put mine where it was originally intended to be; the bottom left of the keyboard next to the spacebar. I think it will be my new Ctrl key.
The Code key is the exact same size as Right Shift is 2.75U with different stem and post locations." [stem and post are switched]
Seems like the code key requires a part of the keyboard arranged in a 1.5U+1.25U location. With the new Model F's it seems that this example is 1.5U+1U+fitting a 1U key where the 1.5U key would go.
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Lu_e on Mon, 09 May 2022, 00:58:12
One thing I am struggling with at the moment is changing the layout. I’ve been trying to use the QMK website, pandrew utility, and Atmel Flip. I’m thinking the QMK website, or me missing a step is the issue. When I create my desired layout on the website and then export the .hex file, what is flashed to my keyboard is not my layout and is unusable gibberish of a layout.
Is there a better way to go about this? I followed the first half of the video in the manual thus far. Should I be exploring Via?
Post by: behemoth on Mon, 09 May 2022, 06:13:38
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 09 May 2022, 09:57:44
Yes I am trying to get out the remaining keyboards this month and over the next couple months.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 May 2022, 22:24:14
Since I've mailed out over 840 keyboards over the past 5-6 weeks we are seeing more issues popping up compared to the December 2019-Feb 2022 period where 1968 keyboards went out over that entire time period where I was not the bottleneck as I am now. Mostly I'm seeing requests for replacements of keys that were broken in shipping. Fortunately there are nearly zero issues with soldering of the ribbon cable, which was a more prominent issue with the earlier two container shipments.
IBM's quality control is legendary. I particularly liked the IBM internal newsletter article discussing the Model F keyboards and showing the quality control steps that involved an employee putting a microphone to the keyboard and pressing the keys to make sure everything was good. There is definitely room for discussion over whether the factory should be doing additional QC work to install and test the sounds for every key. This work would have added at least another 1-2 months of work for the factory, a small additional cost per keyboard, and would have vastly increased the complexity of installing specific key sets on specific boards, now that there are a couple dozen key set options, not counting the exponential options with the additional right side blocks, Mac Sets, and Industrial SSK and Front Printed F1-F12 12 key sets. The advantage of this installation would of course be reduced setup time for the end user as well as a reduced chance of damaged keys if most keys are installed in the barrels.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 May 2022, 10:37:08
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/ukoghm/model_f_122_with_hebrew_key_caps_and_math_pad/
Are we missing any major IBM sets at this point? Or any other sets outside of APL?
Post by: Viridae on Fri, 13 May 2022, 15:17:06
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 May 2022, 17:01:40
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 14 May 2022, 12:05:16
I read in the AT90USB162 datasheet "USB pad multiplexed with PS/2 peripheral for single cable capability" - it would be cool if it had ps/2 support! Would that be possible to do with one of those passive USB-PS2 adapters that used to come with some computer mice, even if the controller has a USB-C connector?
How easy would it be to adjust the current controller to make a dozen or so ones with this chip instead of the ATMEGA32U2 chip? Per pandrew: this chip has "16k of flash memory. Qmk firmware currently uses around 22k. That's not to say it's impossible. It's probably possible to strip away many QMK features and get it working, but it won't be great."
I think the tradeoff in some additional functionality would be worth it to the folks who strongly prefer PS/2 connectivity.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 May 2022, 11:59:54
Here is a nice photo (shared with permission) of the Industrial Gray keyboard with the Industrial SSK 12 key set and a right side block arranged in an alternative way.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 May 2022, 14:37:10
I am looking into making a mold for the ISO Enter key (currently we are using Unicomp keys for this key as noted before, and they cannot make the additional colors for black and for gray and blue to match my project's key colors). This would allow for key sets with ISO Enter to be made in additional project colors black, 60% dark gray, and Industrial SSK Blue. I will probably make the key non-stepped just like the other keys are all non-stepped.
If you are interested please fill out the Google form below to note which sets you'd like. To help pay for the mold each set will cost $20 extra, a total of $99 instead of $79 for each set. The key could also be ordered for $20 individually.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vsamkl_jOqp6wAEfZGeivQZ8ZaibpoT0WQkDG39r08Q/
Since I am making a mold would any other keys be worth adding that have not been made before? I don't think the big PC AT enter key or code key would have enough interest to merit $1000 extra for the mold costs but it would be lower than having a completely separate mold.
Also here's a nice and detailed Model F review from late last year - I had not come across it until today:
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 May 2022, 13:57:42
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 May 2022, 20:43:38
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 May 2022, 21:08:00
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 30 May 2022, 12:42:54
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
So far I have mailed out more than 1,000 Brand New Model F Keyboards since early April, which is more than half of the remaining backlog. We have about 850 keyboards remaining in the backlog. My expectation remains as before, that I can expect to move through the rest of the backlog in June and July. As noted before, it is not possible to project the timeline 100% based on last month’s progress as each order takes a different amount of time and orders with many individual extra keys will take much longer to process; many of the remaining orders are disproportionately ones that have such keys while the “all in stock” orders have been able to go out already.
This week another batch of the custom dye sublimated keys is arriving by express / air mail from the factory so many more orders will be “all in stock” and eligible to ship. The only remaining custom keys the factory is finishing up in the next couple weeks is the HHKB Front Print, Extras, SSK Num Pad, 4704, Terminal, and Ergodox sets.
Interest Check: Pad Printed New Model F Keys
I am reviewing samples for the pad printing with the plan to offer white text on black keys, which is a common request. If interested in black pad printed Model F / Model M keys please sign the interest form here to reserve your set: https://forms.gle/qnUATUrng8bX9Qxt8
Interest Check: ISO Black, Dark Gray, and Industrial SSK Blue key sets, Code Keys, Big PC AT style Enter Keys?
I am looking into making a mold for the ISO Enter key (currently we are using Unicomp keys for this key as noted before, and they cannot make the additional colors for black and for gray and blue to match my project’s key colors). This would allow for key sets with ISO Enter to be made in additional project colors black, 60% dark gray, and Industrial SSK Blue. I will probably make the key non-stepped just like the other keys are all non-stepped.
If you are interested please fill out the Google form below to note which sets you’d like. To help pay for the mold each set will cost $20 extra, a total of $99 instead of $79 for each set. The key could also be ordered for $20 individually.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vsamkl_jOqp6wAEfZGeivQZ8ZaibpoT0WQkDG39r08Q/
Since I am making a mold would any other keys be worth adding that have not been made before? I don’t think the big PC AT enter key or code key would have enough interest to merit $1000 extra for the mold costs but it would be lower than having a completely separate mold. Please post on the Deskthority project thread if you have any recommendations.
Major Project Milestone – 2 million dollars in orders!
Today we reached a major project milestone of 2 million dollars in Brand New Model F orders! It is very surprising to me that there has been so much interest in this project. This figure includes accessory orders and shipping costs.
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 30 May 2022, 18:22:49
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 30 May 2022, 22:38:28
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 31 May 2022, 07:32:14
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 31 May 2022, 13:17:56
Pad printing update: I received the air shipment from the factory and here are the latest pad print samples. I requested the printing to be thicker like on the original IBM M13. Of course the samples do not have the correct alignment of the finished products. Please disregard the cell phone quality of the photos.
As a reminder please sign the White text on Black Keys Pad Printing Interest form to reserve your spot in line for these sets: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1873Q9wJFyNvJ4-TEBN6P9JbzaVxErbNd-h4XtN1DfNk/
So far there are 65 requested sets which is enough quantity to proceed with production after good samples are produced.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 01 June 2022, 11:44:58
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 June 2022, 20:59:19
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 June 2022, 12:26:42
Also the first red and green text dye sublimation keys arrived from the factory and look nice. Some folks wanted red text esc or green font for the alt key like on the Model M keyboards.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 June 2022, 15:26:41
Icons Row 1 (Unicode in parentheses):
1. ← Backspace
2. ← Backspace
3. ⇥ Tab
4. ⭾Back and Front Tab / Horizontal Tab (U+2B7E)
5. 🔒 Caps Lock (U+1F512)
6. 🔒 Caps Lock (U+1F512)
7. ↵ Return / Enter
8. ↵ Return / Enter
9. ⇪ Caps Lock
10. ⇧ Shift
11. ⇧ Shift
12. ⇧ Shift
13. ⇧ Shift
14. ⌘ Command (Apple/Mac)
15. ⌃ Control (Apple/Mac)
Icons Row 2:
1. <X| Backspace / Erase to the Left (U+232B)
2. <X| Backspace / Erase to the Left (U+232B)
3. <X| Backspace / Erase to the Left (U+232B)
4. ⎋ Escape (Apple Escape) [unicode U+238B]
5. O-->[ ] IBM print screen
6. Padlock with the Up and Down arrow: Scroll lock
7. ⎉Pause / Circled Horizontal Bar with Notch [U+2389]
8. a^ Insert IBM-style
9. a with curved line: Delete
10. ⌦Delete / Erase to the Right (U+2326)
11. ↖ Home / North West Arrow [U+2196]
12. ↘ End [unicode U+2198]
13. ⇞ Page up / Upwards Arrow with Double Stroke [U+21DE]
14. ⇟ Page down / downwards arrow with double stroke [U+21DF]
15. Padlock with the number “1” Num lock
16. ⎇Alt key with arrow (U+2387)
17. ◇Meta / UNIX-style super key / Diamond [U+25C7]
18. ⌃ Control 1.5U
19. ⌥ Option (alt) 1U [unicode U+2325]
20. ⌘ Command 1.5U
21. ⇮ Upwards Double Arrow (U+21EE)
22. List icon
23. ƒ Function / F with a hook [unicode U+0192]
24. ↵ Return / Enter
(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Extra-Keys-C4.png)
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 08 June 2022, 17:21:46
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 June 2022, 18:55:22
Post by: ALOHAKB on Thu, 09 June 2022, 02:30:23
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 June 2022, 15:39:59
https://mailchi.mp/106dffa1b161/brand-new-model-f-keyboards-2022-update-9074837
Also check out this great project to create an RP2040-based controller for capacitive buckling spring keyboards:
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/the-leyden-jar-a-tentative-pcb-replacement-for-the-brand-new-model-f-keyboards/17489
A helpful person emailed me the answer to setting up the toggle keys - the secret to getting the right side blocks 4 and 5 working.
In summary you set one key (for example the key between Right Alt and Right Ctrl) to be the toggle key: on the QMK configurator site, go to the Quantum tab and drag the TG key in the Layer and Tap Functions section to the keyboard and then enter in the number 3 in the text box inside this key (to indicate "layer" 3). Then click layer 3 on the left side of the keyboard and drag the Insert/Del/etc. keys to the positions as indicated however you installed the keys (example "Del" on the 6 num pad key).
With this setup, I was told that you can press the toggle key to act as a quasi-num lock key - when it is pressed, pressing the 6 num pad key in the above example will send the Del signal, and when the toggle key between Right Alt and Ctrl is pressed again, it will go back to num pad. I think this is the solution we are looking for to getting the additional right side block keys working but please let me know if this is accurate.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 June 2022, 11:22:30
"The Code key was found on IBM terminals as well as IBM Wheelwriter
typewriters. In both cases, though, its functionality was basically
exactly the same as the Alt key (the left-hand one, not the right-hand
one when it is used as an AltGr key) on the PC, to enable special
word-processing functions or other special functions of the program in
use.
There was also a Code key on the Displaywriter."
Post by: Rico on Fri, 17 June 2022, 14:34:33
Ellipse suggested me to post a message on this thread a few days ago so here is it.
I have received my F77 recently and I'm loving it!
Long before that I started to design a new controller for it with a more modern MCU, this is the 'Leyden Jar PCB'.
In order to not add too much pollution in this thread I created a specific one on Geekhack on this link:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=117555.msg3129629#msg3129629 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=117555.msg3129629#msg3129629)
Feel free to visit it for more details.
A bit of warning:
I am not an electronics engineeer, this is a hobby for me, and there are chances the project will be a failure.
Having done several PCBs in the past, both keyboard related and on different fields, this is the most complex project I have ever started.
But hey, who does not try does not succeed ;)
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 18 June 2022, 17:07:54
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 25 June 2022, 10:41:37
The top row of keys on the right side block is planned for media keys once they are ordered and shipped, I was told.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: andy74 on Sun, 26 June 2022, 06:33:25
After a little fiddling with installing the keys (and reseating a couple of them), everything seems to be working order. After following the instructional videos on firmware upgrades, I'm now on "VIA" firmware, and have managed to map 'pipe' to a key.
Thank you so much, Ellipse. The amount of work you put into the project is immense!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 July 2022, 16:16:14
I am posting (with permission) another nice photo, this time with some of the new Extra Keys (some of which recently arrived from the factory: terminal, 4704, Icons, Extras, num pad/right side blocks, front printing), as well as some customized transparent relegendable keys, which allow you to print graphics for both the top and front of the key so you can have a custom key with custom front printing for multi-functionality.
Here are some details on the fonts used:
"most the numbers are whatever font IBM used. It looks like Public Sans though. The period is Public Sans too. Fira Code for the two slashed zeros, after seeing a picture of a model M style macro pad with that on. Finally, my Wheelwriter uses Prestige Elite at 12 cpi. That's what all the VISA CREDIT stuff is written in. All the words [on the relgednables] are Prestige Elite. I typed it manually on my wheelwriter."
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 02 July 2022, 14:57:50
So if anyone wants to order the new style F77 regular foam it is now OK to do so (to be doubly sure it's ok to put in an order note for "I request the new foam material"). For previous orders you can't pick.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 July 2022, 23:05:39
Is anyone up for creating a "0.9.3 version 2" firmware for the new 33 pin controller I'm testing this week? The changes are that caps is pin 18, pin 19 is Num, and pin 17 is Scroll. Because of these hardware variations, this will have to be a separate firmware version.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 06 July 2022, 23:22:50
In my testing the 4 rows connected to RP3 are all white at threshold 80 no matter if shorted or not, while RP4's rows behave normally (shorting a row 5-8 turns the row from gray to white in the ibm capsense utility.
Everything seems to be perfect with pandrew's own QMK update for the beamspring boards (known as rev2 on the QMK beta site - connecting a column to a row correctly produces a threshold change with the associated key) so I probably adjusted things wrong in the original xwhatsit firmware - any ideas?
Here's pandrew's note: "For the original xwhatsit, I think it should be possible to update to support the leds, and solenoid in conjunction. It will need changes to: firmware, communication protocol, and ibm capsense utility, to add a new supported expansion port configuration."
Here's what I did:
new 33 pin controller: caps is pin 18 PB4, pin 19 PB5 is Num, and pin 17 PB3 is Scr (pin 17 was previously unused). The purpose of this change is to allow the solenoid to run at the same time as 3 LED lock lights - the current xwhatsit controller is limited to 2 LEDs while a solenoid was attached.
old: caps pin 20, num 19 (the same), scr is 18
in the file named exp.c change the PB numbers to the ones shown below:
setLockLEDs(void)
{
if (kbdLEDs & HID_KEYBOARD_LED_NUMLOCK)
PORTB |= (1 << PB5);
else
PORTB &= ~(1 << PB5);
if (kbdLEDs & HID_KEYBOARD_LED_CAPSLOCK)
PORTB |= (1 << PB4);
else
PORTB &= ~(1 << PB4);
if (kbdLEDs & HID_KEYBOARD_LED_SCROLLLOCK)
PORTB |= (1 << PB3);
else
PORTB &= ~(1 << PB3);
}
The instructions I followed in Ubuntu:
In a terminal, run: sudo apt update && sudo apt install make gcc gcc-avr avrdude avr-libc build-essential
Move the patch files into the src directory
In the terminal cd into the src directory
Run patch files in order from oldest to newest (start with debounce patch, then patch 1, then patch 2, then patch 3 (the latter three patches from pandrew).
patch < xwhatsit_model_f_firmware_update_0.9.1.patch
patch < patch1.patch
patch < patch2.patch
patch < patch3.patch
The default debounce is 11. To create the debounce 6 version, edit the scan.h file and change the line with #define SCAN_DB_THRESH_TOP 11 - change to a 6 (I use the debounce 6 version when sending out the Brand New Model F keyboards). ONLY change this as well as the version number after running the above patch files
In the file Makefile, change version to 0.9.3v2
Run make and copy the ibm_capsense_usb.hex file that was created
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 July 2022, 12:09:19
I have been generously invited to speak about the project at the NYC office of a well-known tech firm. I'd like to schedule it for a Wednesday in September or October, after I've caught up with the backlog, which I expect to go through during the rest of this month and part of next month.
Their meetup is just for company employees; I was thinking of a mini-meetup open to the public on the same day in the late afternoon.
Is anyone willing to host a mini-meetup in Manhattan that would be open to the public? The space would need tables to show off any keyboards that folks bring there.
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 08 July 2022, 12:30:42
Mini-meetup in NYC - September or October?
I have been generously invited to speak about the project at the NYC office of a well-known tech firm. I'd like to schedule it for a Wednesday in September or October, after I've caught up with the backlog, which I expect to go through during the rest of this month and part of next month.
Their meetup is just for company employees; I was thinking of a mini-meetup open to the public on the same day in the late afternoon.
Is anyone willing to host a mini-meetup in Manhattan that would be open to the public? The space would need tables to show off any keyboards that folks bring there.
I've sent this to the NYC meetup discord, I think one of the organizers will get in touch with you soon.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 July 2022, 22:56:46
As an update we are about 4-8 weeks away from me mailing out the remaining Model F keyboards in the backlog! A little over 500 keyboards plus many non-keyboard orders. 3360 keyboards have shipped so far.
Over on the beam spring project thread I added photos of the first prototype parts of the next round.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 July 2022, 14:36:03
Zed has been so incredibly helpful with making sure the keys are up to IBM's design and alignment standards that I am wary of making too many more additional requests especially for the ultra low volume requests, so someone would have to help with these.
The factory can even do green, red, and blue for the sublimation text/graphics and multiple colors can be printed at the same time and on the same keycap. If anyone wants one-off sets in various colors it is possible, though some sublimation colors come out better than others and you'd have to make them to find out. So far green, blue, and red have come out nicely.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 July 2022, 21:21:02
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: dc_in_sf on Fri, 15 July 2022, 09:37:26
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 July 2022, 13:11:13
I am posting with permission another nice photo someone sent me: a customized Swedish-Finnish layout
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 July 2022, 11:43:56
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 July 2022, 21:24:52
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 July 2022, 22:21:00
[attachimg=1]
Post by: diazel on Thu, 21 July 2022, 20:48:05
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 July 2022, 22:01:32
NYC meetup?
Just reposting my note about asking if anyone is up for hosting a small new Model F / new Beam spring meetup in NYC in September or October. Please do PM me if you can help. It would be good for folks to be able to try out the new Model F and beam springs.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 26 July 2022, 12:51:10
So, funny story... I decided to mess around with my solenoid some today to try some different sounds.
At one point I had the case apart and the cable from the main board to the driver disconnected. I told myself, remember that black goes on the left. Welp, I had the driver turned over a few minutes later and sure enough inserted the cable upside down. No smoke, but smelled the death of electronics immediately.
Keyboard works fine, but the solenoid no longer functions.
So, what did I fry? The driver board or the solenoid? The led lights up on the driver board but only with the solenoid detached. I'm assuming whatever I fried makes it no longer pass the proper voltage?
Post by: Rico on Tue, 26 July 2022, 13:20:56
I'd say that the driver iPCB is dead.
The main controller PCB should be fine, as it is the one that provides current to the driver PCB.
Post by: online on Sat, 30 July 2022, 09:46:58
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 July 2022, 09:59:53
Post by: online on Sat, 30 July 2022, 10:25:14
Head over to the project web site - click manual - firmware section where you can clone the QMK gitis this the URL? - http://purdea.ro/qmk_firmware/
looks like it's down. (or just me?)
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 July 2022, 11:33:32
For Windows this may help but you may need to ask someone for more details: download from https://git-scm.com/download/win
line endings-select to leave as is
no caching
to clone a git repo, use Git CMD
confirmed working 11/13/21 but it does not download the git version history needed to correctly compile (need to clone the full github.com qmk first to get these files?)
If someone could help improve the Windows instructions please let me know.
Post by: online on Sat, 30 July 2022, 16:35:53
Please follow the instructions in the manual to download it - they are for linux. You can't use a browser.
For Windows this may help but you may need to ask someone for more details: download from https://git-scm.com/download/win
line endings-select to leave as is
no caching
to clone a git repo, use Git CMD
confirmed working 11/13/21 but it does not download the git version history needed to correctly compile (need to clone the full github.com qmk first to get these files?)
If someone could help improve the Windows instructions please let me know.
I don't know much about programming, so rarely use command line but I tried github desktop app, and it said failed to access.
Also tried 'git clone http://purdea.ro/qmk_firmware/' on Git Bash, came up with the same error - failed to connect.
Not sure if have I done anything wrong, can anyone please verify if the repo is still up?
Edit: It's back online now.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 01 August 2022, 11:11:22
Here are the first few paragraphs from the post:
***If you have a new shipping address please do email me to let me know your order numbers and the new address. Check your order email and our email communications (if applicable) to make sure the latest address I have on file for you is the correct one. If you’re waiting on your order to ship, please check the junk mail folder for shipping confirmation emails every now and then to be safe!
(As a brief update, the container ship arrived a few months ago and I have been busy mailing out lots of keyboards and will continue to go through the backlog. I expect to finish up this month (August) with all of the remaining keyboards and other orders in the queue (as of now, all the remaining 2021 and 2022 orders). Sorry I cannot provide estimates for any particular order in the queue as noted before; please see the below posts for additional details. Since I ordered a bunch of extra keyboards, there is still time to customize your Brand New Model F Keyboard and add on accessories like the First Aid Kit for future repairs, the new solenoid driver and extra hefty solenoid, the transparent relegendable keycaps just made from new molds, extra key sets and USB cables, etc.)
So far I have mailed out 1,487 Brand New Model F Keyboards since early April; we have about 400 keyboards remaining in the backlog.
Mini-meetup in NYC – September or October? Please email me ASAP if you can offer a space
I have been generously invited to speak about the project at the NYC office of a well-known tech firm. I’d like to schedule it for a Wednesday in September or October (leaning towards October), after I’ve caught up with the backlog. Their meetup is just for company employees; I was thinking of a mini-meetup open to the public on the same day in the late afternoon.
Is anyone willing to host a mini-meetup in Manhattan that would be open to the public? The space would need tables to show off any keyboards that folks bring there.
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 03 August 2022, 18:43:48
I also had ordered an extra vertical stabilizer insert to repair my Model M, which hasn't had a stabilized numpad enter for as long as I've owned it! However, the insert seems to stop much earlier than the ones I installed on the F77 repro -- is there some trick to the vertical inserts?
Post by: Gemini on Fri, 05 August 2022, 07:38:28
Anyway my question - I've bought myself a new macbook which has very limited port options necessitating the purchase of a usb dock. I'm looking at Caldigital's Element Hub which is powered. I'd be very disappointed if I bought this only to realise that the keyboard won't work off it. Anyone have an ideas whether it should be okay?
Also an unrelated query for the technologically minded - can you run a DVI monitor through a thunderbolt 4 port these days? These Thunderbird ports confuse me they seem to be able to do anything?
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 07 August 2022, 11:54:27
You have to give the stabilisers a good push for the last few millimetres. Absolutely delighted with my board which I got a couple of weeks ago. Apart from one small issue which Joe resolved very quickly and professionally (missing component) it has just been plug and play for me. No issues with keys whatsoever. Important to note as on the forums here it can sometimes look like issues are common and to be expected but in reality they are probably the exception.
This one seems to be stopping about 1cm out of the barrel -- what you're describing matches the experience I had installing the inserts on my F77. Will probably make a new thread and post there with more details.
Quote
Anyway my question - I've bought myself a new macbook which has very limited port options necessitating the purchase of a usb dock. I'm looking at Caldigital's Element Hub which is powered. I'd be very disappointed if I bought this only to realise that the keyboard won't work off it. Anyone have an ideas whether it should be okay?
I don't have firsthand experience with that hub, but I would expect no issues with a powered hub -- unpowered might be more troublesome, depending on what else is connected to said hub.
Quote
Also an unrelated query for the technologically minded - can you run a DVI monitor through a thunderbolt 4 port these days? These Thunderbird ports confuse me they seem to be able to do anything?
That should be entirely possible, with the right adapter. Thunderbolt carries displayport video, which is easily adaptable to HDMI/DVI signals. Many thunderbolt docks come with HDMI output, and you should be able to adapt that to DVI with an appropriate cable.
In addition to displayport, Thunderbolt can also carry PCIe or USB signals, up to a maximum total bandwidth. This means the ports are really flexible, and give really great options for more or less generic one-wire hubs/docks. But, this can also be confusing. For example, two different docks might both have ethernet ports, but one might connect that port via USB, and consume USB bandwidth, while another might use a PCIe ethernet chipset, leaving all the USB bandwidth for other attached devices like external storage.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 August 2022, 12:07:19
Post by: user 18 on Fri, 12 August 2022, 15:25:13
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 15 August 2022, 21:12:39
The first 3d printed sample keys for the PC AT style enter, code key, and non-stepped ISO Enter key are being evaluated by the factory, and I expect to receive the mold quotation soon. If the cost to add the PC AT and code key is minimal then I hope it can be added.
I expect to go with the wheelwriter style code key and wheelwriter-style PC AT enter key; this key should be backwards compatible if you use the new horizontal insert (I am not making the old rectangle style insert/post as this key is not an exact reproduction of the PC AT's enter key which appears to have been designed before the latest stabilizer insert design was finalized. This PC AT enter key has no wire stabilizer, a standard horizontal key style post on the bottom left barrel, and no post on the top, same as on the wheelwriter. The code key closely reproduces the wheelwriter version as well.
[attachimg=1]
Here's another great keyboard photo - this time of the new dark blue ultra compact F77 keyboard with the new production unprinted dark gray keys. Posting with permission.
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Arkku on Wed, 17 August 2022, 11:15:52
I'm trying to flash new QMK firmware to my F77. In the online configurator, I see special keycode options for 'Reset', 'Debug' and 'EEPROM reset'. Do any of these correspond to the QK_BOOT keycode that the documentation suggests is the appropriate way to enter the bootloader, or do I need to enter QK_BOOT as a custom keycode?
"Reset" is indeed the one that enters the bootloader.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 August 2022, 13:34:51
Project update:
Meetup: My presentation has been scheduled tentatively for 9/29, so if anyone can offer to host a meetup open to the public in the early afternoon on that date, please contact me (the talk is limited to company employees).
Under 400 keyboards left in the backlog! These 2021 and 2022 orders should be going out over the coming weeks. Then we can move on to the beam project! I hope to receive the new beam sample in 1-2 weeks.
Over 3,500 Brand New Model F keyboards have shipped so far.
We are moving into the final round. The final round is leaving the factory this month; the container shipment is expected to arrive by the end of October - this one has the other ~150 beam keyboards too, as part of the 300 keyboards of the first beam spring keyboard production round. For the final round I ordered all variations of the keyboards and accessories in advance, based on the proportion of each variation ordered over the past couple years, so that everyone will likely be waiting only weeks for their keyboards as opposed to longer. However costs are far higher across the board (!) so please expect pricing to be higher for these keyboards if you are not planning on ordering in the near future.
I ordered lots of extras (first aid kits, inner foam, solenoid drivers and solenoids, key sets, custom keys, etc.) so feel free to pick up some of these items while they are still available.
The final round changes are around the packaging only. F77 classic case box sizes are reduced by about 40% and the styrofoam original-style packaging has been replaced with the newer foam style of the ultra compact cases. The factory has too much F62 styrofoam still in inventory (the styrofoam mold makes both f62 and f77 at the same time and there were more 77's ordered than 62's) so you'll still get that for the classic style F62 keyboards. The boxes still have the same artwork and double-walled construction quality.
Post by: user 18 on Thu, 18 August 2022, 10:51:29
I believe Reset enters the bootloader mode.
"Reset" is indeed the one that enters the bootloader.
Great, thank you!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 25 August 2022, 01:42:34
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 26 August 2022, 10:40:30
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-obsessive-pleasures-of-mechanical-keyboard-tinkerers
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 August 2022, 23:26:37
Good news - my talk on the new Model F project has been finalized for Thursday Sept. 29 (limited to employees only of the major tech company that invited me) - just a reminder to see if anyone is able to host a meetup open to the public on that same day in the early afternoon in Manhattan - please PM or email me. I could go through the presentation again if folks are interested (it will not be too long). Hoping people can try out the new F and new Beam Spring keyboards, chat with each other, ask questions, etc.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 30 August 2022, 17:08:03
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 30 August 2022, 22:39:11
Adjusting the distance between the bottom of the spring and the bottom of the nub of the flipper can oftentimes eliminate buzzing of the spring. Sometimes it's too much distance; wiggling a fingernail in between to widen things can eliminate the buzz. In other examples, moving the spring downwards can fix things. That's why removing and reseating a spring can remove the buzz sound from the spring because it happens to be in a different distance with each installation.
I also had some experiments done with a low number of hours in salt spray testing to see if the springs could be corroded and/or artificially aged. Even with the springs left in for the full amount of the test (~10 hours or so - not enough for full testing) the new production springs did not visibly corrode. Unfortunately there was no benefit to this artificial aging in terms of sound quality (though maybe the test was too brief) so no springs will be offered with this option.
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Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 31 August 2022, 11:18:40
The forwarder picked up the shipping container. This shipment should arrive to me in about 2-3 months (significant congestion in the port of NY and a major shortage of truckers from what I was told). Below are some photos of the beginning of the loading stage (Only some of the boxes are visible in these photos but it will be a full 40' container). Hopefully the factory will send additional photos later.
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Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 September 2022, 10:28:10
I have enough spare parts to offer about 40-50 keyboards unassembled (just the flippers and springs would be assembled). Please PM or email me if interested and I can send details. The savings would be very small compared to an assembled kit but it would be a fun project. You would be issued a serial label and box label with a keyboard kit.
Post by: Gemini on Wed, 07 September 2022, 09:42:08
I would like to put a shorter cable on my F77 as its plugging straight into the front of a powered usb hub at the foot of my monitor. I haven't opened up the case. I'm guessing it is USB C inside? Is there anything I have to keep in mind before I purchase a cable?
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 10:16:12
Assemble your own new Model F Keyboard - any interest?
I have enough spare parts to offer about 40-50 keyboards unassembled (just the flippers and springs would be assembled). Please PM or email me if interested and I can send details. The savings would be very small compared to an assembled kit but it would be a fun project. You would be issued a serial label and box label with a keyboard kit.
This would have been fun! Unfortunately, a second one of these isn't in my budget :(
Post by: beekey on Sat, 10 September 2022, 04:31:22
Hi Folks,I just opened my F62 and it has an USB C connector on the onside.
I would like to put a shorter cable on my F77 as its plugging straight into the front of a powered usb hub at the foot of my monitor. I haven't opened up the case. I'm guessing it is USB C inside? Is there anything I have to keep in mind before I purchase a cable?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 10 September 2022, 11:13:00
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 15 September 2022, 18:15:54
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 September 2022, 11:16:34
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 17 September 2022, 17:12:45
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 September 2022, 10:42:36
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Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 22 September 2022, 17:11:40
I expect to be in the Anaheim area on Sunday October 2 and should be free in the afternoon if anyone is interested in a meetup. I'll bring a new Model F F77 keyboard and maybe a few beam spring modules as well for folks to try out. If anyone can offer a venue it would be much appreciated!
Also for those in NYC I am trying to put together a meetup in the late afternoon on Thursday September 29th if anyone has suggestions on a meetup space or can recommend one. Maybe Union Square Park? The parks seem to allow gatherings of 20-25 or fewer people without issue.
Please fill out this form if you hope to attend either event!
https://forms.gle/8ifJw4kCT7pVw3WM9
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 September 2022, 17:01:45
My host hopes to be able to publicly post a recording of the talk at some point, which some folks have asked about. It was a one hour presentation and Q&A session - lots of smart questions too.
As a fulfillment update, as of now about 98% of the ordered keyboards have shipped so far (3900 out of 3990 or so), and there are also several hundred small orders from the past several months in the backlog.
Post by: TjarleN on Fri, 30 September 2022, 06:22:32
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/823788196634689537/1025354589614120970/DSCF5973.png)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/823788196634689537/1025354590054531092/DSCF5968_cropped.png)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 30 September 2022, 11:42:25
Posting with permission a nice F77 Industrial Gray photo sent to me. The UK layout customizations include HHKB style split right shift, UK front printed keys and some blue Esc and cursor keys.
The unique cable is from https://cablelab.co.uk/
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Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 14 October 2022, 02:27:50
As an update the latest container shipment is expected to be delivered later this month. I hope to wrap up the backlog over the coming weeks.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 October 2022, 10:49:08
First up is an Ultra Compact F77 with JIS keycaps from Unicomp (the top keyboard in the photo):
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/v11dgo/two_very_different_jis_mechanical_keyboards_ultra/
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And next up is an updated version of a keyboard posted last month with this description: "Posting with permission a nice F77 Industrial Gray photo sent to me. The UK layout customizations include HHKB style split right shift, UK front printed keys and some blue Esc and cursor keys."
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Post by: chaucer on Tue, 18 October 2022, 19:58:38
Post by: Lu_e on Wed, 19 October 2022, 11:32:14
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/344284899064152064/1032332666982387772/IMG_8661.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 21 October 2022, 19:30:12
Also, the second half of the round 1 batch with the factory repaired beam springs arrived. I will be replacing the other 150 or so keyboards' springs that arrived a while back, before the spring issue was discovered. Of course if anyone wants to skip the line and replace the springs themselves that will also be an option (I expect to post a video).
You may see that the new classic style zinc case F77s are in the smaller packaging, removing the styrofoam and saving about 40% of box volume, allowing many more keyboards to fit in the same space. The styrofoam is still present on the F62 zinc case boards from this batch, while supplies last, as they made extras of these.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 October 2022, 17:16:08
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 October 2022, 23:10:15
Constructive feedback on what specifically to change, add, and reword would be much appreciated - please also feel free to reply over PM or email if you'd prefer. If anyone wants to edit directly from the Word document please do use the Track Changes feature.
The goal is to make the guide suitable for a complete beginner and cover every possibility that they may encounter during the setup process or after they have been using their keyboard a while, so they do not have to look around various places for answers.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 October 2022, 21:27:43
I know that on my original IBM F122, after a few years' usage the textured key tops showed signs of wear and one or two springs started to buzz, requiring re-seating or replacement. And an ultrasonic clean is needed every now and then for the keys - overdue for mine :)
Post by: BlissOnTap on Mon, 31 October 2022, 21:54:02
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 04 November 2022, 12:49:03
Also has anyone had a chance to review the draft manual posted last week?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 November 2022, 00:07:48
The 4000th keyboard shipped this week! 4036 keyboards have shipped in total.
Backlog is done: I have completely caught up with the backlog! All outstanding orders comprising the backlog have shipped, not counting 27 orders on hold due to various reasons: 17 orders-partially paid, 3-waiting for them to reply, and 7-other reasons that prevent me from shipping the order).
All F62/F77 keyboards and accessories are in stock, with the exception of 1.75 stepped keys which will be sublimated this month (I ordered blank keys from Unicomp and mailed them to the factory doing the sublimation). This "all in stock" is a major change in the project, as opposed to the previous "made to order" nature of the project. I'm hoping that all current and future orders can ship in 1-2 weeks, and likely sooner, but don't hold me to this as anything could happen.
Over the coming week I hope to prepare a beam spring video / higher quality sound test and create the product pages and maybe take some additional photos, so please look out for an email if you signed the beam spring interest form posted earlier (and reposted in the past week or so). The in-stock beam spring keyboards will be reserved and quantity limited with priority to those who signed up the earliest. Those who signed up will also have the option to order the second round beam spring keyboard, whose design is now finalized into the modified 3101 style. Some time after, orders will open up to those who did not sign the interest form.
Recently I located a nice PBT double shot MX set with the key tops partially sunken, similar but not a match to the IBM originals. I believe these to be one of the closest matches out there. I hope to receive these beam spring key set samples later this month and then I will post photos and likely order them. The molds are already produced but the color scheme for the project has not been produced - they are custom making the key colors for this project. The PBT double shot key set options will be:
(1) all black color keys with white legends, or
(2) black modifier keys with white legends and all other keys will be white with black legends
While the factory does not have double shot molds for the international language keys, they do offer ISO Enter, short left shift, and a few dozen additional keys beyond the standard 104, which I expect to offer as well, so the tradeoff of using a modified ISO layout with some "incorrect" keys may be worth it to some international layout users to be able to use these new keys. (As a note, the factory whose double shot sample keys were pictured in the beam spring product photos has not been responsive so I have been looking at these other factories).
To keep things simple and to help cover the costs of these custom made keys which have a high minimum order quantity, the round 1 keyboard cost will include $10 (US) and $15 (international) for separate shipping of the round 1 key sets, whether you order a set or not. No more trying to collect separate payments and holding off on orders like years ago for early Model F orders - everything in stock will be shipping out to everyone without waiting for keys to arrive.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 10 November 2022, 16:16:15
Looking for some good-quality 10 to 20 second videos from the community: Over the coming days I'm hoping you can send over some good quality, well-lit 4k UHD or 1080p video clips and photos of yourself using the new Model F keyboards as you normally would any given day: programming, writing posts while on DT, professional writing, other work, etc. for me to consider for this video (not every video will be selected). Many cell phones can shoot good quality videos nowadays so separate video equipment would not be necessary. This is on a strictly volunteer basis, if you want to try to be famous and show off your work area and keyboard - the clips can also be humorous :)
Please send the original video files in full quality (not re-encoded) through Google Drive (preferred) or any other "free large file sharing" service you can find through online search, and email me the link to info at (the project web site URL). Please include your full name, the date, how the clip should be captioned (forum user name, full name, or first name and last initial) and your permission for me to use the clip.
Feel free to also share your video here with the community by posting on YouTube and embedding a link here.
Here's the draft script in case anyone's interested in sending feedback:
(typing sound) This is the sound of the busy 1980s office. It's the clicky sound of the Model F keyboard, the result of a decade of IBM research to develop what is still the world's greatest keyboard, built up to a standard and not down to a price point.
The problem? These went out of production in the 1980s. As a big fan of the Model F keyboard from an early age, I wanted everyone to once more be able to get an industrial-quality, exact reproduction of the 80s Model F design but with modern electronics that work on today's computers.
Thanks to the efforts of engineers and Model F fans around the world, you can now own a Brand New Model F Keyboard.
Here's what makes the Model F the best keyboard ever:
First is the typing experience. You're already on a keyboard for hours and hours a week (show programmers, writers, etc. using the Model F). Why not make typing fun and enjoyable? You don't realize how boring and uncomfortable typing on a regular keyboard is until you have spent a day with the Model F. Every keypress brings you both tactile and auditory feedback. You can feel the Model F spring buckle inside the pressed key and hear the satisfying click of the flipper against the capacitive circuit board underneath the keys. Many people report significant improvement in typing speed and accuracy after switching to the Model F.
And what about having full control of your Model F? Now you can. With dozens of languages and layouts to choose from and an open source, fully programmable USB controller with macros, function layers, and N-Key Rollover (show gui and different key layout photos) you can fine tune your Model F to be your perfect end game, daily driver keyboard.
And finally, there is the longevity factor – what else might you use with your computer every day for decades? With the finest materials going into each new Model F including an industrial metal case, steel inner plates and dye sublimated legends that resist wear, your keyboard may very well last for decades, just like the originals. For more than five years I have obsessively focused on making sure every detail of the Model F matches those of the originals, down to the paint texture and colors, the sound of the springs, and fraction-of-a-millimeter part tolerances.
Model F Labs has succeeded in producing and shipping over 2 million dollars’ worth of new Model F's to IBM's exacting specifications, at half the original cost, adjusted for inflation. Your new Model F keyboard will follow that tradition of the highest production standards, as I continue to test and do final quality control on every keyboard before it goes out. And you'll also get some future proofing as the controllers are all USB-C and can be replaced in the future.
You shouldn't have to set the DeLorean back to 1985 to buy a brand-new Model F. For a limited time, you can get one fresh off the factory production line. You'll be typing on your keyboard for thousands of hours over the years, so why not treat yourself to the Best Keyboard Ever and have as much fun and enjoyment as possible with every click? Please join the Brand New Model F Project today and help bring back the best keyboard ever!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 November 2022, 13:05:48
Also please do send in the feedback on the draft manual posted earlier this month, by PM, email or replying here on the thread.
As noted in some earlier posts, we are currently in the final round. A new change for the project is that there is no more made to order - the various keyboards and extras are in stock so I have a lot of keyboards ready to go out. I think a video will help get the word out about these great old style keyboards.
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Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 18 November 2022, 15:28:33
This keyboard features Meta and Super keys, which along with the Hyper key, are often used with Linux and Lisp / Space Cadet according to the link below.
https://askubuntu.com/questions/19558/what-are-the-meta-super-and-hyper-keys
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 November 2022, 12:07:51
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Post by: Literal on Fri, 25 November 2022, 12:39:27
Would those be an option to buy with a red F62, or would it be a separate purchase anyway? I've been holding off buying waiting for the WOB.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 November 2022, 13:00:42
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 November 2022, 20:16:58
Please email or message me if interested in ordering this set. I will be ordering several copies from the factory.
If you have any feedback, please let me know in the next few days so I can update the file if needed before it goes to the factory.
Here are some notes that I was sent:
- This layout works only on Windows and Linux, Apple has developed its own CSA keyboard, called Canadian French ― CSA but it’s not exactly the same keyboard layout. Apple respect only partially this standard (the ligature œ is located with q for example). If you are interested I can send you another template using this layout. For now, I am interested in the Windows/Linux version.
- 4¤ and É are drawn twice because the Linux version is different and doesn’t use the € sign.
- I am interested in the F77 industrial grey with the Numpad #3 (with an arrow inside a diamond for the Enter key used in the Numpad).
- I am also a VIM user and I would like if possible a second Caps Lock key with the proper Esc pictogram, not ESC or Esc but an arrow inside a circle, it’s there in my template.
Ideas (relocate ESC key):
1) Home Row (where caps lock is, then relocate caps lock between
ctrl and alt)
2) Between ctrl and alt
Other points :
In the newest version, the ligature Πmust be printed (E key).
Also, the pictograms must be used instead of english or french labels,
same thing over the numpad.
The triangle replace the decimal separator (numpad).
- Return and Enter are pretty similar but are not exactly the same.
Enter (arrow inside a diamond) go with the numpad). Return (just the arrow pointing left) to with the alphanumeric keys.
- The pictogram "centering" with the 5 key (numpad) is now obsolete and can be skipped.
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 November 2022, 14:27:41
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 November 2022, 15:55:56
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Post by: Rico on Thu, 01 December 2022, 07:43:26
Ty Ellipse !
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 December 2022, 17:15:06
"I just wanted to write you an email to show how much I appreciate all the effort you put into the Model F reproduction project. I think it's an amazing achievement, and I worry that this fact might get forgotten among the few complaints or negative feedback I've seen on the internet, which you've already done your best to address.
There is really no keyboard like the IBM 4704 you decided to bring back. Regardless of the noise pointing to the lack of F-keys and additional navcluster/numpad to fully accommodate those refusing to learn QMK and adapt to anything non-standard, I don't think you could have chosen a better candidate. The 4kg zinc case feels and looks like no other keyboard, with its imposing presence and wide bezels reminiscent of a 60s space age movie prop, while being the perfect housing for capacitive buckling springs. The feel of these switches are amazing, and it provides a highly engaging typing experience that I would compare to the driving experience of a classic Ferrari Testarossa - manual and heavy, requiring the full involvement of its user, but rewarding with exquisite tactility and sound.
I own lots of keyboard, most of them deviating greatly from the standard, instead being tailored to optimise ergonomics and productivity. Yet I still find myself placing the 4704 onto my desk, simply to enjoy the act of typing, as it offers an experience unlike anything else, making the activity feel substantial and turning typing into a goal in and of itself.
Most keyboard enthusiasts nowadays, particularly those that spend lots of time and money on the hobby ordering and building custom keyboard parts, seek very different goals in the form of highly customisable keyboards with colourful keycaps with amusing legends, compact cases with artifical weight through attached blocks of brass, gasket-mount with silenced (through innumerable hours of modding and lubrication) MX-clone linear switches to achieve a very specific muted "thock". To these people the Model F and similar keyboards are a curiousity and unsuitable for use - perhaps because they are too different from what they are used to. Unfortunately, markets gravitate towards demand, and therefore there are extremely few exceptions.
In comparison to these keyboards, the 4704 is a bargain at $350, considering a custom keyboard easily reaches double that while offering miniscule differences from a premium off-the-shelf keyboard for $200.
It saddens me that another keyboard on the same level as the 4704 reproduction, while still being perfectly usable for modern computing, may never exist. I acknowledge there may be no other keyboard that could fit this role better, but maybe there exists one that could do this differently, while still being at the same level? If anybody is familiar with unique typing experiences throughout keyboard history, that would be Chyrosran22 - I wonder which other keyboards he would see worthy for a revival. Likewise I'm eager to see what comes out of the beamspring reproduction project. I sincerely hope you will consider reviving a classic case, as if there's one thing the 4704 has taught me, it's that the case means as much as the switches. Finally, there's that crazy guy manufacturing Symbolics 365407 Alps clones in his own house, claiming he wants to one day do it with beam/buckling springs, although his reluctance to adopt Chinese mass production means they will continue to have very limited reach.
I don't know how you feel about unsolicited feedback, or if you'll even find this email, but I hope it will serve as a reminder amongst the noisy reality of manufacturing a consumer product, that you have created something very grandiose and generously made it available to anyone with interest for a reasonable price. You did so without compromise and by dedicating yourself fully to it over a very long timeframe. Nobody else would have, or even could have done this, and a shame it would be if that were our reality. Thank you."
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 07 December 2022, 20:46:14
This video shows the CNC milling in progress for the new mold for the 3 new keys: non-stepped ISO Enter, Code key, and PC AT Big Enter. The keys will be available in all new Model F project colors. Please sign the interest form here to reserve your key, either alone or as part of a set: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vsamkl_jOqp6wAEfZGeivQZ8ZaibpoT0WQkDG39r08Q/
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 09 December 2022, 23:10:39
G H B trackpoint keys, factory sublimated. The keycaps are sourced from Unicomp. The texture on these particular keys is a bit different from the other keycap textures.
I had mailed the factory some stepped 1.75U caps lock keys and GHB trackpoint keys so they could sublimate them and send them back to me - this way the legends would match the other new Model F keys.
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 December 2022, 20:43:53
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Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 23 December 2022, 04:56:02
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/beam-spring-keyboard/
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 January 2023, 12:07:06
I received this note from someone: The issue has to do with waking a computer from sleep mode, with a new Model F directly connected to the computer. "I have tested all the keys, nothing is stuck and appears to work OK once logged in, but when pressing space bar or any key to wake the computer, instead of doing to the normal splash screen and then you press a key to bring up the login box, the keyboard is constantly repeating the keystroke until i press for example the back key then it stops, hence it jumps straight to the login prompt and continues to fill it until I press the back key."
I think it may be a firmware bug or a USB power saving setting that needs to be adjusted. https://www.tenforums.com/attachments/tutorials/114577d1485975114-turn-off-usb-selective-suspend-windows-10-a-usb_selective_suspend_setting.png
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 16 January 2023, 11:31:03
Here is a review article on the Ultra Compact F77 keyboard over at Cult of Mac
https://www.cultofmac.com/801538/model-f-keyboard-review/
Also the latest blog update has been posted:
https://modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 27 January 2023, 13:23:23
This set was submitted to me by the forum member who posted the photos.
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=511370#p511370
Here is the flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/197610510@N08/
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 31 January 2023, 16:31:35
https://nyckeyboardmeetup.com/
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 February 2023, 20:51:41
There has been some discussion on KVM switches since they have been known to be tricky to work with Model F keyboards. Here are some notes that someone sent me on a solution that was found to be working with Model F keyboards:
"I am currently using the IOGEAR 4-Port HDMI 4K KVMP Switch — GCS1934H. I have used a variety of KVM’s over the years (different vendors, different video interfaces, etc.), and have had the best luck with the IOGEAR devices. As I don’t have the actual KVM in sight, I am dependent on using the keyboard triggered control sequences to switch between my 4 computers, and the F77 looks like a “typical” generic USB keyboard, so the keyboard based switching works fine, as do the media keys that I have configured. As with most things of this nature, YMMV, but this is a configuration that is working exactly as I require.
IOGEAR 4-Port HDMI 4K KVMP Switch - 2-Port USB 3.1 Hub Transfer Rate 5Gbps - 4K 60Hz - Control 4 Computers w/1 Keyboard Mouse - HD Audio - Auto Scan Mode - TAA - Mac/Win - GCS1934H"
Here's travel case that a forum member has recommended for the F77: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27873
Posting (with permission) another nice custom setup:
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 06 March 2023, 01:41:49
I am planning on ordering some logo badges for the keyboards, that have adhesive backing to be affixed on any keyboards but are the size of the F122 badge (a little smaller than the badges on the XT style keyboards). Any recommendations on the graphics options to offer? I was thinking the buckling spring logo and maybe the beam spring logo? Of course the original logo or anything similar to it cannot be used, so no line art. Dot matrix text/art would probably be fine.
Does anyone know the original process to apply the graphics for optimal appearance and longevity? Sublimation, printing, heat transfer, lasering with paint infill, etc.
Some other IBM badge projects:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=18885
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=18905
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=13814&start=60
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 March 2023, 20:02:31
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Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 March 2023, 14:35:27
"What ended up improving the responsiveness substantially was replacing R7 with a lower resistance resistor. This has the effect of increasing the boost voltage to 12v instead of 9. As a result the solenoid has WAY more power. The result is that I can use a basically insignificant dwell time. I currently have it set at 1ms. This is about 20x faster than what I could do at 9v. Now the solenoid has no problem keeping up with me. I also upgraded the cap to 470uf instead of the 220uf. This is my first electronics project and it was a lot of fun. I do not think the cap headroom is needed - just the resistor change so the boost converter boosts all the way up to 12v instead of 9v. "
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 March 2023, 01:59:16
https://imgur.com/PlC6Zim
(https://i.imgur.com/PlC6Zim.jpeg)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 March 2023, 16:34:59
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Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 March 2023, 22:24:13
"This layout was developed in the early 2000s and standardized by the French government in 2019. Contrary to the traditional French AZERTY layout, the French BÉPO seems more appreciated in Quebec/Canada. Microsoft seems to offer this "new" French layout in their preview build since November 2022, I expect to see this layout included in the next stable version soon. I need to install the correct preview build on my computer and test it. I will let you know when it's ready. This layout is more "classical", doesn't have a proper gr2 key (ctrl-right), just a second boat wheel (right) and the Christmas tree (Alt Gr) will be blue. This layout is ISO only."
https://kbdlayout.info/kbdfrnb/overview%2Bscancodes (https://kbdlayout.info/kbdfrnb/overview%2Bscancodes)
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 21 March 2023, 12:45:33
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/10qeqw6/home_setup_eizo_flexscan_thinkvision_x1_thinkpad/
(https://i.redd.it/zyqvoa0qwgfa1.jpg)
https://www.reddit.com/r/battlestations/comments/11ntfer/went_vertical_and_loving_it_brydge_dock_with_the/
(https://i.redd.it/gn4rwruiazma1.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 23 March 2023, 13:16:33
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 31 March 2023, 22:46:32
Now available to order: F104, FSSK, F122, F15, F50, and Split Ortholinear Ergonomic
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Click here to customize your Brand New Model F: http://modelfkeyboards.com/store
The layouts and cases of these regular/full size Model F boards were modeled after the later-production Model M keyboards and their more standardized/modernized layouts, but with the same Model F internal components and XT-quality dye sublimated keycaps as with the original F62/F77 project. A number of folks have been asking me for a full size board and other board types so here they are!
Some models are offered in both Model M style and ultra compact style cases. All cases are metal, even though they were designed to match the IBM Model M case designs of old.
Click on the “shop” link above to view more photos and details about each keyboard model and the available customization options.
Rather than wait for orders before starting production, I decided to go ahead and purchase many of these boards ahead of receiving orders. Production has finished for many of these boards and they are in stock and should start shipping in the later part of April or May. As always the in stock keyboards from this new project will not ship until all of the in stock Round 1 beam spring boards finish shipping. So far, 44 out of 80 Round 1 boards have shipped.
Today we have 8 new models!
4 currently in stock: Ultra Compact F104, Ultra Compact FSSK, F15 Split Ergonomic, F50 macro pad
4 currently in production: The 3 metal case classic Model M style F104, FSSK, and F122 keyboards and also the Split Ortholinear Ergonomic model
I was not sure how many of the ultra compact boards would be in demand, so for the in stock units I ordered extremely limited quantities of each: only 25 F50, 50 each of the two types of ergonomic boards: (the F15 style which is based on the very rare IBM M15 keyboard, and the split ortholinear style based on the Ergodox Cherry MX boards), and 200 each of the compact F104 and FSSK. The classic M Style case offerings (Classic F122, F104, and FSSK) are not limited at this time and will have a much larger first production run that is currently in progress. The Buckling Spring Ortholinear-style boards arrived but had an issue with the top inner assembly so they will ship later.
The classic M Style case keyboards (F122/F104/FSSK) support internal mounting of the solenoid driver and solenoid while the other ultra compact anodized case models do not (same as with the F77/F62).
No reservations needed for F104 and FSSK, neither for the compact nor classic case models. Anyone can order today.
There is a reservation process for the split ergonomic and F50 boards. Check out the details on the product pages, and then when ready click here to reserve your keyboard. You only need to reserve the split and F50 boards. You do not need to fill out this form for all other keyboards - you can order them straight away.
Why didn’t I start the new Model F project with a full size or Model M style board? What took so long with the original Brand New Model F Keyboards project? What is the most interesting part of the manufacturing process? Check out my Google NYC Tech Talk video embedded below for details behind this and other aspects of the project’s journey.
Not to worry, you can still order the classic case style and ultracompact case style F77 and F62 keyboards for the time being. I still have many in stock of each variation, but these final round keyboards will be on a “while supplies last” basis until they are all gone. More than 4,000 Brand New Model F F62 and F77 keyboards have shipped in recent years.
Here is a review article on the Brand New Ultra Compact F77 keyboard over at Cult of Mac
https://www.cultofmac.com/801538/model-f-keyboard-review/
Here’s a nice in-depth article on mechanical keyboards initially featured on the home page of The New Yorker – the Brand New Model F project is mentioned
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/the-obsessive-pleasures-of-mechanical-keyboard-tinkerers
Here’s a 3 1/2 minute video introducing the Model F reproduction project and the new Model F keyboard models:
YouTube video: typing test and teardown for the new keyboard models launched today!
Now posted on YouTube: my Google NYC Tech Talk on Bringing Back the Model F Keyboard
It was a great honor to be invited to speak at Google offices last year on the journey to bring the IBM Model F keyboard back into production. Once again a big thanks to Tony at Google for setting everything up and for obtaining permission from Google for me to share this video publicly. A big thanks to the Googlers for keeping the announcement of new Model F models under wrap for so long, until it was ready to launch! The folks at this meetup were the first to try the new Model F and beam spring models; this was also my first meetup in a long time which was nice.
Here are some photos of the new Model F keyboard models available (not pictured below: Classic Style FSSK and F122). Most are available in various colors. All have powdercoated/painted aluminum or anodized aluminum cases.
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Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 31 March 2023, 22:47:54
https://modelfkeyboards.com/blog
Photos of the new die cast injection molds for the new Model M style cases
The below photos show the 3 new M Style aluminum die cast case tops, unpainted, as well as the mold for the F122 case top. The bottom cases are made by CNC milling and bending, as a mold was not needed.
You will notice from the photos below (and more clearly in the photos on each of the new M Style case product pages) that the F122 retains the original IBM full size Model M case design and not the expanded case size of the original IBM F122 and M122, and the FSSK retains the original IBM full size Model M case design and not the reduced-size top bezel as found in the original IBM SSK (Space Saving Keyboard). The main reasons for this are to keep the designs consistent (the F122, F104, and FSSK all are the same exact length from front to back, even though the F122 has an extra row) and also to allow the solenoid driver and solenoid to fit comfortably inside all 3 of the keyboards.
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Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 01 April 2023, 20:48:51
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 April 2023, 11:54:39
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 April 2023, 12:51:01
I like the texture of the sample cases (more photos of the texture are in some prior posts).
Please disregard the 5 incorrect 1.5U key and 2U Vertical colors (should be pebble instead of pearl).
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Post by: Lu_e on Mon, 03 April 2023, 16:28:35
Please see today's blog update post for a summary of the various goings-on with the project in recent months:
https://modelfkeyboards.com/blog
Photos of the new die cast injection molds for the new Model M style cases
The below photos show the 3 new M Style aluminum die cast case tops, unpainted, as well as the mold for the F122 case top. The bottom cases are made by CNC milling and bending, as a mold was not needed.
You will notice from the photos below (and more clearly in the photos on each of the new M Style case product pages) that the F122 retains the original IBM full size Model M case design and not the expanded case size of the original IBM F122 and M122, and the FSSK retains the original IBM full size Model M case design and not the reduced-size top bezel as found in the original IBM SSK (Space Saving Keyboard). The main reasons for this are to keep the designs consistent (the F122, F104, and FSSK all are the same exact length from front to back, even though the F122 has an extra row) and also to allow the solenoid driver and solenoid to fit comfortably inside all 3 of the keyboards.
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What is the difference in dimensions of the top bezel? Between OEM IBM SSK and your new Model FSSK keyboards? thanks!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 April 2023, 16:35:23
Post by: Lu_e on Mon, 03 April 2023, 19:36:41
The new M Style case dimensions are the same as with the original Model M keyboards but the insides and bottom case plate were redesigned to accommodate the thicker Model F inner assembly.
I guess what I'm asking is what is the difference between the FSSK retaining "the original IBM full size Model M case design" and "...the reduced-size top bezel as found in the original IBM SSK (Space Saving Keyboard)" ?
You're saying it is only an internal difference?
Externally the case is dimensionally identical to an OEM SSK ?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 03 April 2023, 20:13:22
They are made to match the original full size Model M, even the SSK and F122. The top bezel is smaller on the F122 to keep the same footprint, and bigger on the SSK. The SSK has the same dimensions as the 101 key Model M, with the right side removed.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 April 2023, 12:25:47
Post by: Lu_e on Tue, 04 April 2023, 16:20:49
The top bezel is ... bigger on the FSSK. The FSSK has the same dimensions as the 101 key Model M, with the right side removed.
Ok, in a roundabout way, I got one of my answers: the FSSK footprint will be larger than an Original IBM SSK. What that dimensional difference is? I guess the mystery goes on.
I see that you want to "keep the designs consistent" with the same length front to back as the F122, F104 etc. but I suppose my opinion/wallet just differs here, I think. To me it's a missing part of what makes the SSK unique, though I have no interest in solenoids or whatnot either.. (so far?)
Annnd I do already have an F77 I enjoy so...
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 04 April 2023, 20:00:04
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/04/new-buckling-spring-keyboards-recreate-ibms-iconic-model-f-for-modern-computers/
Lu_e the difference in the sizes you mention will just be the difference between the IBM SSK and the IBM Model M full size bezels. I hope to post the final measurements of each case at some point - sorry for the delay. There are about 1000 solenoid orders (about 1/4 of the number of keyboards ordered) so I didn't want to prevent solenoids from working in the FSSK boards.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 April 2023, 19:45:10
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/23/04/05/2039244/new-models-of-ibm-model-f-keyboard-mark-ii-incoming
Also an article on the Italian version of Wired! https://www.wired.it/article/tastiera-ibm-model-f-moderna/amp/
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Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 06 April 2023, 12:32:30
https://www.youtube.com/@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards
To catch everyone up, here are the updated links to each of the previously posted project videos. The older links posted in this thread prior to this month may not be working.
Full size and other Brand New Model F Keyboards major project launch today! Typing test and teardown
New full size and other Model F keyboards launch today! Introducing the Brand New Model F Keyboard
Google NYC Tech Talk on Bringing Back the Model F Keyboard
Brand New Beam Spring Keyboards Setup Guide
Model F Keyboard Quality control secrets REVEALED - fixing nonworking or buzzing keys, typing test
CNC Milling a keycap injection mold: Brand New Model F Keyboard production
Brand New Model F Keyboards production video: Laser cutting the top inner assembly
Brand New Beam Spring Keyboard Project - typing test original vs. new
The first time I typed on a Model F keyboard! Brand New Model F Keyboards Project
Solenoid Installation Guide and Sound Test (Model F and Beam Spring Keyboards)
Brand New Model F Keyboard setup: keycap installation
Brand New Beam Spring Module Sound Comparison Test original vs. new
Dead Simple Model F Firmware Customization and Setup Guide - QMK, Via / Vial - xwhatsit controllers
Brand New Model F production: First tests of the 2018 custom built pneumatic spring attacher!
Adjusting the solenoid settings (Model F and Beam Spring keyboards)
Brand New Model F Keyboards instructional video: Opening up and closing the keyboard inner assembly
Brand New Model F Keyboards production video: Stamping the inner foam
Attaching 100,000 Model F springs+flippers! Production spring+flipper attacher machine
Brand New Model F production Keyboards production video: inner assembly stamping and bending
The first new production custom made Model F solenoids! Brand New Model F Keyboards production
OFFICIAL way the factory closes the Model F inner assembly! Model F Keyboards production
Making the old IDE hard drive style ribbon cables: Brand New Model F Keyboards production
Injection molding the first new production Model F keycaps! Brand New Model F Keyboards
Aluminum cases sample scratch test powdercoating
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 07 April 2023, 13:59:18
https://www.techspot.com/news/98225-new-customizable-ibm-model-f-keyboards-now-available.html
https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/the-new-model-f-keyboard-is-now-available-in-more-sizes
https://blog.adafruit.com/2023/04/07/new-models-of-ibm-model-f-keyboard-mark-ii-keyboards/
Post by: Pretendo on Sat, 08 April 2023, 23:15:28
It's essentially my dream keyboard: a "compact" standard 104 key layout with the guts of a Model F. The F122 gets painfully close, but no matter how I try to set it up, mouse placement is always awkward. That extra 3-4" of space really makes the difference.
If there's ever any gentle mod to get a Trackpoint integrated into the thing then I'll probably be buried with it.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 April 2023, 23:46:48
Post by: Pretendo on Sun, 09 April 2023, 00:19:28
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 April 2023, 12:32:31
One way to add them is to change the two right side ground holes to 2 columns as shown in the attachment (I have circled these two holes). This way, the controller does not become too wide that it does not function with the current new Model F and Beam Spring keyboards. These columns will be ignored for all firmware except F122. For all other keyboards, the holes are connected to ground on the capacitive PCBs. Another option is to widen the controller to add 2 holes as also pictured in the attachment. It would be one or the other, not both changes.
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/the-leyden-jar-a-tentative-pcb-replacement-for-the-brand-new-model-f-keyboards/17489/18
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Post by: 1391401 on Sun, 09 April 2023, 14:09:34
Is there a way to buy an extra spacebar or two?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 09 April 2023, 14:34:15
Yep you can order extra spacebars and any other available key through the Extra Keys store page.
Everyone please let me know what specific changes would improve the project web site.
Post by: Pretendo on Mon, 10 April 2023, 20:17:39
2) The different prices on the color options should be more noticeable, like it is with other options.
3) If there was some way to have the total tacked to the bottom of the page, that would be nice.
4) LED overlay options should be better integrated (shouldn't have to go to the beam spring page to see your options) and included by default, as the board seems incomplete without one.
5) Easier said than done, but better previews of colors and key options as you select them.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 11 April 2023, 19:47:08
This means that now the orders with overlays can proceed - first the Round 1 beam springs with overlays ordered and then the ultra compact (aka Round 1) Model F's with overlays ordered can go out (though I am waiting on the QMK firmware to be finalized for the new Model F options before they can ship so people don't have to reflash right away). This LED overlay batch was for 500. For the final batch of the remaining 4,500 overlays, I requested that they add a little more brown to the color of options 1, 5, and 9 and make the black printing a little more deeper black. Either way it is difficult to tell the new vs. original overlays but I want them to be as close as possible. Sorry but to keep things simple I won't accept requests for one batch or the other batch of overlays so please don't ask.
I added some case dimensions to the project site:
Approximate dimensions:
Classic F104: 486 x 210 x 22-40mm (front to back variance)
Classic FSSK: 400 x 210 x 22-40mm
Classic F122: 535 x 210 x 22-55mm
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 April 2023, 21:20:48
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4972816
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 April 2023, 10:34:29
Rejected case samples:
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 April 2023, 19:42:24
You can see the rust on the steel top inner assembly plate as the plate was not powdercoated, so it starts to rust quite quickly. When I was restoring a late 1930s/early 1940s metal case clock a few years back (including removing the old paint finish), the bare clock case would develop a later of rust within minutes (!) of air exposure. Drying the water off the clock and coating the clock case with oil helped slow this down so I could spray paint the case.
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Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 19 April 2023, 20:43:54
Please review the proposed F104 factory programming. I hope to start mailing out the Round 1 F104/FSSK boards Thursday/Friday of this week.
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Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 April 2023, 16:42:25
For the M Style case keyboards, wcass has ingeniously updated the PCB design to allow for the same PCB to support both HHKB style split right shift and regular right shift, to cut down on the number of PCB variations.
As noted earlier, these are the rejected sample cases that have defects (casting defects, they did not drill all of the mounts and screws correctly so the inner assembly has sunk inside the keyboard, etc.). Fortunately the keyboard is fully functional in my testing with QMK today.
The case bottoms have 4 holes for optional screw-on bumpers, plus 2 holes to mount a solenoid. The case tops have two internal posts, one to mount a solenoid and one for the P clip (USB cable strain relief).
You can also notice the changes to the interconnections between top and bottom inner assembly
1. They now have additional tabs between the first two rows, just like the IBM F122 and F104 originals. I believe this was done to keep the plates as tight as possible, to allow for the snappiest of clicks upon actuation of each key. The Round 1 compact style F104 and FSSKs do not have these extra tabs. I can tell that the Round 2 boards have some extra clickiness/snappiness to them compared to the Round 1 boards, though both have sufficient clickiness/snappiness.
2. The controller tabs have been modified slightly on the M Style boards to make them simpler and a bit less flexible. Sometimes when unscrewing the controller and adjusting an old bottom inner assembly, the old tabs would move out of position which would require some pliers to move them back into position. They are also slightly taller, to allow for more room between the controller and BIA.
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Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 April 2023, 22:24:43
Also shown below are some photos of the inside of the F104, indicating the locations of the P clip and where a solenoid driver and solenoid would go. The LEDs are designed to have the flexibility for movement so you can move them closer or further away from the LED overlay based on your LED lock lighting preferences.
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Someone asked about getting some touch up paint for their powdercoated cases.
I would just order a sample size of touch up paint for ~$8 from Home Depot. Some locations have a paint matching machine where you could bring in your keyboard case to get the most accurate color, since colors vary slightly, but if you are okay with a close but not exact match you can refer the Home Depot staff member to the photo below.
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Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 30 April 2023, 23:32:25
Good news from Rico. Rico just announced the completion and open sourcing of the Leyden Jar controller project with the 18x8 extended matrix! And wcass has designed the F122 PCB to accommodate these extra pads, so now we have everything that is needed for the full F122 usage.
The next step is to optimize the components / design for mass production at the lowest feasible cost that does not result in noticeable performance loss. At first glance the RP2040 based board seems to cost more than the ATMEGA-based controller, even with bulk quantity. It looks like the board uses several components that cost $0.50 or more each, compared to the ATMEGA-based design only using one such component, not counting the ATMEGA chip itself. Which components can be changed out for lower cost components, even if the design has to change a bit? The push buttons probably need to be eliminated for example, since they cost nearly $1 each.
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/the-leyden-jar-a-tentative-pcb-replacement-for-the-brand-new-model-f-keyboards/17489/23
https://github.com/mymakercorner/Leyden_Jar
PS/2 support - A welcome surprise is that Rico has designed an add-on board that adds PS/2 support, however it has not yet been programmed on the firmware side so some development will be needed. It plugs into the solenoid header, which would not be needed for LEDs nor the solenoid, given the separate LED through holes and the PS/2 connection not permitting the required power for a solenoid.
Some of the higher cost components:
Comment Footprint Matched Part Detail
MCP4716A0T-E/CH SOT-23-6 MCP4716A0T-E/CHC110057
SOT-23-6 Digital To Analog Converters (DACs) ROHS
PCA9557PW,118 TSSOP-16_4.4x5mm_P0.65mm PCA9557PW,118C141380
8 400kHz I²C, SMBus TSSOP-16 I/O Expanders ROHS
ADP122AUJZ-3.3-R7 TSOT-23-5 ADP122AUJZ-3.3-R7C143910
300mA 60dB@(10kHz,100kHz) Fixed 3.3V~3.3V Positive 5.5V TSOT-5L Linear Voltage Regulators (LDO) ROHS
LMV339 TSSOP-14_4.4x5mm_P0.65mm LMV339IPWRC273648
TSSOP-14 Comparators ROHS
W25Q16JVUXIQ USON8_3x2mm W25Q16JVUXIQC2843335
USON-8-EP(2x3) NOR FLASH ROHS
mSMD110-16V Fuse_1210_3225Metric SMD1210-150C70102
6V 1.5A 100A 3A 1210 Resettable Fuses ROHS
USBLC6-2SC6 SOT-23-6 USBLC6-2SC6C7519
6V 17V Unidirectional 5.25V SOT-23-6 ESD Protection Devices ROHS
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Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 May 2023, 22:16:43
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction, safety information
2:57 Parts identification
3:28 Initial setup steps
5:35 Installing stabilizer inserts
7:15 Spacebar installation and optimization
12:16 Installing the remaining keys; fixing stuck or binding keys (the wiggle method, etc.)
18:23 “Quality control secrets” steps: adjusting a key that doesn’t click, doesn’t work, or buzzes
23:23 Steps starting with plugging in your keyboard to the computer (testing, troubleshooting double presses, etc.)
27:26 Solenoid installation (optional)
31:02 Diagnosing issues with many keys
37:08 Opening up the keyboard inner assembly (change/maintain the layout or case)
40:08 Intermediate firmware adjustment (firmware/layout customization)
57:40 Appendix (cleaning, modifications, etc.)
Post by: POCO Estudio on Sat, 06 May 2023, 23:22:52
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 May 2023, 16:34:12
Here was the reply I posted: "Thanks Wendell for making this video on the Brand New Model F Keyboards project! If you do adapt the new Model F into the IBM SSK case, please do let me know how it goes. I would not recommend it as you would probably have to irreversibly trim some plastic off the original case to fit the larger inner assembly of a Model F. Regarding the recessed case, I do want to let everyone know that you can also order the F104 and FSSK with a standard Model M style case that is made out of metal and whose interior design is adapted to the Model F. A downside is that unfortunately you can't switch an inner assembly from the compact case to the classic case or vice versa as they are slightly different in design (you could do this with the F62/F77 though)."
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 May 2023, 23:36:05
And for old time's sake, here is one of my favorite videos from a keyboard meetup in 2018, highlighting the new Model F project. The song and editing are so nice, I have to see it a few times!
And here's a nice F62 sound test that someone posted (I might have posted this one before)
F77 sound tests
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 26 May 2023, 22:49:24
https://www.pcworld.com/article/1928356/model-f-ultra-compact-keyboard-review.html
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 04 June 2023, 12:06:14
Sadly there is another stolen keyboard to be reported: an ultra compact F104 with serial number 11. Please do let me know if you come across this keyboard listed online, or if one does not have the correct serial label with the serial pictured.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 June 2023, 00:40:12
I am hoping to wrap up the bids in the next week or two. Feel free to join the reverse auction with the link below. You can still get one of these keyboards by not participating in the auction, though the board will be priced higher for all of the remaining 10 or so boards of each type that are reserved for the public.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PqXBAtHVRHWHvheCSMXVNI96_zuhXMMhnrQ2piT6QLk/
Can anyone help set up the matrices for QMK? I can provide screenshots of the PCB. I would like to start testing these boards with QMK (currently the testing has been done with the original xwhatsit firmware).
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 11 June 2023, 01:44:02
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Here is a terrific video testing many mods to the project's solenoid - it is interesting to hear how many different ways the solenoid can sound!
Looking around on YouTube I also came across two new Model F videos that are both not what I have seen before! I cannot recommend the safety of what is done in the video, so definitely do not try at home!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 11 June 2023, 23:52:04
Please see today's blog update post for a summary of the various goings-on with the project in recent months:
https://modelfkeyboards.com/blog
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 11 July 2023, 21:52:59
The factory is now just fine-tuning the key top texture and then hopefully production can start on these keys. After they are sublimated I am hoping to open up orders for these keys and key sets with these keys.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 July 2023, 20:04:15
I have just approved the Model M style cases to enter production. Due to some quality issues it took many months extra to get the quality to where it is now.
Here's one photo from the approved sample - the gap in the back looks nice now.
Now the cases have to be die cast, drilled, and powdercoated, and then they can be assembled. The F104s and FSSK inner assemblies are complete and the F122 working sample still needs to be completed (I need to do some more testing with the new Leyden Jar controller and the F122 before continuing). I expect all to be on the same container shipment with the Round 2 beam spring boards, hopefully around year end.
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Post by: romevi on Tue, 18 July 2023, 18:09:37
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 18 July 2023, 22:44:49
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Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 July 2023, 16:06:27
Post by: clay on Wed, 26 July 2023, 12:18:10
Just ordered my third board. I kinda like the website, it's like the unicomp site but worse. This recent time I ordered an FSSK and just chose options without really knowing what they were. IBM SSK Keycaps? Are they just the pearl & white ones I see in pictures? who knows, sounds good :p I'm sure I'll love it though, keep up the awesome work!
Is there a way to buy an extra spacebar or two?
its like the unicomp site but better ;D
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 July 2023, 00:40:22
I am finalizing the artwork options for the 20x20mm metal badges. There is a recessed spot for them on the F122 but they can be put on other keyboards as they will be adhesive.
1. Buckling spring logo
2. Beam spring logo
3. Any other requests?
I want to avoid anything line art related so as not to confuse with IBM's style logo. The dot matrix printing style should be ok to use however.
(click to expand the attached images as the colors are off in the thumbnails)
Post by: clay on Fri, 28 July 2023, 04:29:45
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 28 July 2023, 14:01:41
Not sure yet on the timeline, but most of the in stock stuff is end of production so I strongly recommend ordering things now while the current pricing stands, whether to pick up an additional / backup keyboard while you can still buy one new, or joining the project for the first time if cost was holding you back before.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 09 August 2023, 14:21:22
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Any additional logos that should be produced? I hope to finalize the production over the coming days. So far the black logos (not the grayscale versions) of the F and Beam Spring will be produced, plus maybe a company logo abbreviation like MFL in a dot matrix style font.
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 August 2023, 23:10:40
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 August 2023, 19:15:12
It was a great honor for the new Model F project to be featured on the Linus Tech Tips ShortCircuit YouTube channel today!
My reply posted in the YouTube comments is below, since it may be tough to find among the many comments:
"Hello, project coordinator here. Thanks Nicholas and the entire ShortCircuit team for putting together a nice video covering the Brand New Model F Keyboard! It is great to get the word out about these great keyboards that definitely take some getting used to!
Kindly see my replies to some of the notes brought up in the video:
The pinginess / reverberation: Some folks that prefer a Model F board without the higher pitch sounds. The best thing about buckling spring keyboards is the a longstanding community that has come up with various repair and maintenance step by step guides and mods, including the Floss Mod and the grease mod, to reduce or eliminate the high-pitch / pinginess while typing. My guess is that the main reason for the pinginess is the super thick steel plates reverberating inside the keyboard.
Why True Red? Well it's the Pantone designation for the particular shade of red. The factory prefers Pantone references when doing the finishing.
Recessed keys: The reason for the extra recessed keys for a couple of the rows is that the Ultra Compact F104 case top in the video is flat and the Model F and Model M design require a curved plate inside the keyboard. One result of this is that the key profiles are all uniform and a key can be installed on the various rows. The Model M style F104, FSSK, and F122 cases are all curved where the keys are, just like the IBM originals, so the keys will stick out more evenly.
Casting: The Ultra Compact cases for the F104 and FSSK were CNC milled and have 3 main parts, while the ultra compact cases for the F62 and F77 keyboards are die cast, while the first rounds of the compact F62/F77 boards were CNC milled. The Model M style case Model F keyboards all have die cast cases.
Regarding the low serials, they are mainly there to allow folks to offer a little extra support to help cover the tens of thousands of dollars in project cost overruns, the near-endless express air mail sample charges over the years, etc. Many folks also like a custom serial because it allows them to pick a date for the production date, like their birthday or an anniversary of some date. In the Model M community forums it is always notable to get a board made the same year you were born, or if you were lucky, on your actual birthday (and actual birth year too!)."
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 14 August 2023, 01:12:52
Due to the significant feedback I received after the video launch with folks not knowing much about the differences between Model M and Model F keyboards I made a quick video:
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 17 August 2023, 18:19:29
After a number of requests, I have decided to proceed with making the JIS sets. Previously these sets, as well as the APL sets, were Unicomp sets. APL will remain Unicomp (unless someone wants to make the template as was done for the couple recent new layout submissions). I will be making the JIS front print option (not shown below in my draft).
Can folks please check to correct my JIS mistakes and let me know what to fix before sending to the factory?
The first image shows what I updated, and the second image shows what Zed was working on (Zed is taking a well-deserved rest from the key set designs). All text will be black - no green text as shown in the Zed draft.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 August 2023, 11:35:04
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/beam-spring-extras/
There are 2 options - the Model F style and the Beam Spring style (renderings are shown below). If you would like for me to order additional styles, you will have to cover the tooling charges and commit to ordering 15 badges at a minimum. The MFL logo was not ordered due to lack of interest. The beam spring one has the bottom edge cropped not touching the edge on purpose, since the image would be far smaller if the entire beam spring drawing was visible on the badge.
Badges and LED overlays are the same size as the IBM originals and can fit most Model M or Model F keyboards, with exception for the IBM XT and AT boards that use a larger badge. These badges are 2cm x 2 cm. The F122 is the only new production board that has a recessed spot for the badge but you can stick the badges anywhere on any of the Brand New Model F or Brand New Beam Spring keyboard cases.
The factory also has the capability to make the black badges with the raised silver printing as well as the large AT/XT style, so let me know if you want to cover the tooling and order minimums to make any of those styles. I am working with the same factory that produced the badges listed in the below eBay link (not my link). Unfortunately I can't make anything copyrighted/trademarked.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124836963936
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 August 2023, 22:19:02
Some folks have been asking what are the exact colors of the IBM Beige and Industrial Gray.
I was able to use an i1 spectrophotometer to make the measurements, which have been sent to the factories making the cases. Of course IBM's paint and plastic colors varied noticeably from case to case so your IBM case probably does not match these cases, so these values are provided to use at your own risk (probably better to take your case to the paint store where they can do an accurate match). Also the texture of paint as well as the uneven dirtiness and wear of the 6110344 case also adds some variance to measurement as my particular spectrophotometer is not geared to measuring textures. The beige on the screen looks quite different on my hardware calibrated monitor compared to viewing the keyboard itself, while the gray is similar.
Here are measurements of my F122 6110344 from 1984 and a brand new 1990s IBM Industrial Gray case. I took 10 samples from different areas of each case and averaged them.
Beige
LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B LAB_C LAB_H
77.028 -1.431 8.603 8.721 99.444
Industrial Gray
LAB_L LAB_A LAB_B LAB_C LAB_H
49.034 -0.727 7.576 7.612 95.464
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 August 2023, 22:19:43
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 29 August 2023, 13:49:23
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 August 2023, 13:23:22
I am now expecting to base the project firmware off of the latest NathanA updates to the pandrew QMK firmware, which allow the use of the pandrew utility and its signal level monitor, Vial, and the online version of the vial configuration tool. This tool is great - I was able to connect the keyboard running NathanA's updated firmware to the web site vial.rocks to reconfigure the keyboard without having to download anything or flash any firmware. Both the vial program and the vial web site both recognize any keyboard because they read the layout from the keyboard firmware - no need to load a json file or pick your keyboard and controller from a dropdown menu. So much easier. Are there any options on the QMK configurator that are missing from Vial?
In addition, I can report that the NathanA updated firmware (made from the same version of QMK that pandrew uses) is more stable than the firmware I generated from a later version of QMK, but still made before the big QMK updates. The latter one had some issues with repeated and missing keys, even after I removed and retightened both ground screws and removed and replaced two springs from frequently-transposed/switched keys. I also tested the Arkku calibration setup in the NathanA firmware and that also worked well.
Currently the firmware works without any issues on the round 2 FSSK/F104 boards. Again a big thanks to NathanA!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 August 2023, 21:51:50
wolfman is wrapping up the approval process for the refactoring to get the xwhatsit accepted into the main QMK project. Here are the details: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/21193
Everyone feel free to test out this refactored firmware and let us know the feedback!
Post by: TjarleN on Fri, 01 September 2023, 06:58:08
Post by: ItIsWritten on Fri, 01 September 2023, 11:58:56
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G986B met Tapatalk
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 September 2023, 12:53:59
TjarleN you can add cross arrows (the 5 cursor keys instead of 4) to the F122 as it has all of the pads and cut out holes for the barrels pre-made. The only thing you'd have to do is trim that area around the case.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 September 2023, 12:54:17
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 September 2023, 12:54:44
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 02 September 2023, 17:19:07
Is anyone able to help Rico add support for the pandrew utility and its signal level monitor to the Leyden Jar controller?
https://github.com/mymakercorner/Leyden_Jar
The pandrew utility is great for testing all of the keys at one time to quickly visualize any controller or key issues.
Currently the Leyden Jar is working very well in testing; I have noticed no issues so far. The controller is very solid. I hope to test the Rev3 version soon, once it arrives from JLCPCB. It works well in Vial as well, where you can click check marks to easily switch on and off various options such as NKRO.
depletedvespene - wolfman started with F62 for the refactoring submission, as they wanted only one keyboard at a time and count each variation separately, but the f77 should be able to be added if you download and modify the code: https://github.com/matthew-wolf-n4mtt/qmk_firmware/tree/model_f_labs/keyboards/model_f_labs
Once the NathanA firmware files are tested working on the 3 new boards (F50, F15, and Model F Split Ergonomic) then I hope to mail out the boards.
I have also done some more research on the connection of the two split boards. The hid-remapper project coordinator confirmed that we can use a USB hub to connect the two boards to share function layers (for example, pressing FN on one board to activate the function layer on both boards). hid-remapper can be updated through a web site, no software downloads needed.
I plan on ordering QTY 50 of the v1 custom hid-remapper RP2040 board from JLCPCB, along with 50 usb hubs (plus a few extras of each to be safe). https://github.com/jfedor2/hid-remapper/tree/master/custom-boards
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 10 September 2023, 15:32:42
The current step is to get the Leyden Jar firmware working with the additional columns added with Rev. 3:
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/the-leyden-jar-a-tentative-pcb-replacement-for-the-brand-new-model-f-keyboards/17489/28
One big advantage of the board is increased memory with the RP2040. NathanA noted that the new Vial firmware for the ATMEGA controllers are getting closer and closer to filling up all of the available space.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 September 2023, 02:00:02
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/beam-spring-extras/
On the production units, there will be no alignment marks and the brush marks will be horizontal like on my original IBM F122 badge. Also the sample edges appear slightly curved as they were not stamped/cut clean like with the production badges but they appear to have been cut by tin snips or a similar tool.
Also the beam spring badge images look slightly blurry because they left the protective film on the sample for the beam spring badge photos. They removed it for the Model F photo.
Another change is that they said they will not crop the bottom of the beam spring image. I initially thought it would be better cropped before the edge, but the gap just looks a bit out of place.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 September 2023, 12:47:20
Please help test the NathanA beta, prerelease firmware (attached) which is expected to be the main firmware for the wcass controllers going forward.
I hope to submit the F104 and FSSK Round 2 files to the factory for mass firmware loading next week so I hope that folks can do extensive daily driver type testing this week. The inner assemblies all completed production some time ago and are just waiting for the latest firmware. (Also the first batch of F104/FSSK/F122 cases completed production at the case factory and will be on its way to the assembly factory this week).
Instead of flashing the specific layout you want, there is one firmware for each type of keyboard. You flash that firmware and then can configure the board for split backspace, split right shift, etc. There is expected to be future support to flash the exact firmware you want from the start if you want to save a step (also good for the factory workers as they load these en masse).
These are not yet tested on the beam spring boards so it is just Model F to start with. Currently it is good on the F62, F77, and F104/FSSK Rounds 1 and 2.
Permalink to the windows utility (the latest mac and linux utilities are not yet ready): https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/pandrew-utility-to-send-xwhatsit-to-bootloader.zip
Some features of the NathanA firmware:
Excellent stability in my testing
Vial support (after flashing this new firmware, you can just go to the web site vial.rocks (http://vial.rocks) to configure your board any time you want to change something, without needing to generate custom firmware and then reflash the firmware as with the QMK configurator web site. It works natively without needing a custom Vial program or web site or json file because the keyboard details are stored in the firmware and read by Vial). Vial even has a check mark to enable and disable NKRO right from the GUI.
Supports solenoids and LEDs
Supports pandrew's diagnostic utility which has the Signal Level Monitor and Enter Bootloader features (you need to download the latest version which is found in the manual)
And many more features
There are two versions of the latest firmware attached:
The "allpads" version is the way that I prefer, with each pad configurable right away without having to click buttons to reveal pads in Vial. There is also a helpful bat file for each board (allpads version only). Once you enter the bootloader, you can run the bat file to automatically update the firmware and restart the keyboard, no need to unplug and re-plug the cable or use Atmel Flip!
The other file has the source code with a diff file that can be executed on linux to auto build all of the firmware files on your own, if you prefer it. To run NathanA's bash script build.sh in Ubuntu, copy the folder newfxx-vial-package and all its files, then right click build.sh and select run as program.
This is what I do on a fresh Ubuntu install:
open Terminal program and enter one line at a time:
sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade -y
sudo apt install python3-pip
sudo python3 -m pip install qmk
echo "PATH=$PATH:$HOME/.local/bin" >> ./.bashrc
sudo apt install git
qmk setup
Post by: NathanA on Sun, 17 September 2023, 06:31:11
For whatever reason -- mostly just inertia & probably because that's where most of the "action" has been -- I've only been posting these to the DH thread. But it looks like Ellipse would like to start having his keyboards come with Vial pre-loaded "from the factory" so to speak, which is simultaneously both awesome but (personally) terrifying. :)) ...and if the Vial firmwares I've been building become the new firmware preload moving forward, I should probably be more widely communicative about releases. In all, though, I'm hoping that this ends up providing a better out-of-the-box experience for New F users...even if the pandrew's QMK (web) Configurator instance does make it easier, it's still far from ideal for the average person to have to re-flash one's keyboard firmware every time one wants to change their keymap!
Given that I have not been made aware of any glaring issues with the prerelease copy posted by Ellipse earlier, I'm ready to announce a Release 4 of my Vial firmwares for the Model F Labs series of F-model keyboards.
I still consider this something of a prerelease, as it is still missing some things packaged with prior releases; most notably, the complete set of preconfigured layouts for the various different board models. I intend to release a more full-featured package in the future that re-adds those things back in, but as the new keyboard models are going to be shipping out soon, I wanted to get this out the door ASAP for everyone's benefit. I guess you could consider it a "release candidate" in modern software release parlance, as I actually just took my "beta 3" and quickly renamed it, stripping the "b3" part out of most things. Or perhaps I will call this the "Release 4 Limited Availability" edition, following IBM's own footsteps with OS/2 2.0 LA. ;D (It's a good story, which you can read here (https://www.os2museum.com/wp/os2-history/os2-2-0/) if you are so inclined.)
For the moment, the package with the source code patches & the one with the binaries and flashing scripts remain separate as well, and I intend to also eventually combine those, as well as throw together similar flashing scripts for MacOS to be included. If what you're interested in is just the hex files, you can just grab the "new_model_f-allpads-vial_r4.zip" file; if you want to set up a build environment, get the patch set, and build your own from source, get "newfxx-vial-package_r4b3.7z" (sorry about the confusing names for now).
(Also please note that the attached copies of the updated pandrew debug utility both for Windows and Mac that now supports all of the new keyboard models has been split into a split 7Zip archive, only because the DH forum has an upload limit on post attachments.)
This also doesn't yet include any beamspring board firmwares, either. I hope to do something to properly support those in the coming weeks.
Rough changelog (such as it is):
- Changes in r4b1 (from r3):
- Basing patches off of most recent (at time of release) xwhatsit code and keyboard definitions from pandrew's repository.
- Adds FSSK, FSSKr2, F104, and F104r2.
- Additional increased stability, by taking a page out of Arkku's book & moving the KEYBOARD_FILENAME (which the pandrew utility uses to determine the exact keyboard model & thus the layout and matrix mapping) into AVR program space (https://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/pgmspace.html), freeing up tens of bytes of precious SRAM. This seems to have eliminated any remaining (likely stack exhaustion/overload related) known stability issues.
- Vial EEPROM header "magic" ID computation changed, to allow for writing raw keymap definitions directly into EEPROM during MCU programming.
- Changes in r4b2 (from r4b1):
- Adds F50, F15 Ergo, and FOrtho(linear) Ergo.
- Changes in r4b3 (from r4b2):
- Added "Show Extra Nav Pads" Vial layout toggle to FSSK and F104 models.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 September 2023, 18:40:59
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 September 2023, 19:17:57
Already there is some development, even before these boards start shipping later this month! Copying one such project below:
"I set up a GitHub repo, that includes the following files:
-image of an assembled prototype leg that I think should work with the split ortho keyboard (the screw is an M6 size)
-image render of the 3d printed part
-an .stl file for 3d printing
-an .f3d file that can be modified
https://github.com/vanhornlab/Keebs-ModelF_Split_Ortho
Also on the GitHub is a description of the prototype leg. I intend once I have it to make two or three sizes so that the keyboard tents how I like. I have a few other ideas on legs like to make a bracket with a heat inset.
Anyway I hope it helps and I look forward to the keyboard."
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 01 October 2023, 12:35:00
Rico's Rev3 controllers (I hope to assemble and test it with the F122 prototype)
The first 5 sets of XT quality new production JIS, and a few JIS front print sets (these are now available to order)
3 each of the first new keys in pebble, unprinted (PC AT big enter, Code key, and non-stepped ISO Enter) (these are now available to order) - the factory is still working on the jigs for these new keys as well as for the pad printed keys.
The first batch of new production Round 2 beam modules (now I can assemble and take some photos of the B104 keyboard with the approved/finalized Round 2 case)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 October 2023, 20:25:10
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/nyc-mechanical-keyboard-meetup-december-2023-tickets-727184567617
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 08 October 2023, 19:58:39
The F50 and F15 (Model M15-style) split ergonomic boards are now open to forum members at the fully discounted auction finish price of $399 and $499, respectively; anyone interested please PM me. The boards will be on a first come, first served basis. Soon I will open it up to everyone, likely at the non-discounted price, for any remaining boards.
Soon I may open up the other few remaining models of the F Split Ortho since it has been over a week since the payment deadline. Please PM or email me if interested in this one. Some folks mentioned there were some email deliverability issues so I also sent the message by forum PM if they provided their user name in the interest form.
Later this month I will start to mail out all of these 125 keyboards. I also expect to have one spare True Red F50 case (please PM me if interested). As always a big thanks to forum member NathanA for updating all of the firmware to allow all of these new boards (among many others) to be Vial-enabled by default.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 October 2023, 17:10:48
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f50-model-f-keyboard-auction-winners/
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/ortholinear-split-ergonomic-model-f-keyboard-auction-winners/
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/split-ergonomic-f15-model-f-keyboard-auction-winners/
Project prototyping update:
I assembled the F122 prototype with Rico's latest Leyden Jar controller that just arrived recently and noticed some things that I want to change regarding the inner assembly tabs and posts and their alignment with the PCB so I will be requesting another sample of the top and bottom inner assembly plates. We are still waiting on the cases production (as noted earlier the inner assemblies for F104 and FSSK were completely finished a while back and they just need the latest firmware to be loaded and for them to be installed into the cases when they are done). The factory is still hoping to wrap everything up this year but the one constant is that things take longer than expected!
The updated Round 2 B104 beam prototype is coming along nicely and I hope to wrap things up and post some photos next week. The press fit washers make things much easier to set up and maintain compared to the glued metal washer originals.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 October 2023, 12:46:17
The initial batch of 900 F122, F104, and FSSK keyboard cases (300 each) has been completed and is being mailed to the assembly factory which will inspect the cases and then assemble them with the inner assemblies. The first batch just has black color cases, plus some uncoated cases of each type. As noted earlier the F104 and FSSK inner assemblies were completed a while back while the F122 inner assembly was not approved and a new sample has been ordered. Next up will be the batch of all remaining cases. The factory split things for quality control reasons, to make sure everything was being produced according to the requirements.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 October 2023, 19:50:34
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Below are a few portions of the update:
Production status for the various projects
For the most frequent day-to-day updates on the various keyboard projects please head over to the mechanical keyboard forums such as Deskthority and geekhack (links can be found above by going to About, Forums/Press). I only post on the blog and send out email newsletters on a more limited basis, to summarize what has been going on.
As I always say, we are at the mercy of the factories for such low volume production, especially around the timeline. It is truly a miracle and a great sign of today’s manufacturing advances that such complicated projects to bring back these great old style keyboards can proceed today given the limited economies of scale and even though production volume is significantly limited compared to most mass market products and we are far from top priority clients for that reason.
Here is the status by keyboard type:
Classic Case F104 and FSSK: inner assemblies are complete, first batch of cases is 900 complete, still need to complete the balance of the cases (see below for additional details).
F122: some errors with the prototype inner assembly plates; I have ordered a new sample of the top and bottom inner assembly plates. I assembled the F122 prototype with Rico’s latest Leyden Jar controller that just arrived recently and noticed some things that I want to change regarding the inner assembly tabs and posts and their alignment with the PCB so I will be requesting another sample of the top and bottom inner assembly plates.
Beam Spring Round 2: The factory is working on the new case tooling. I am working on finishing up a prototype of the Round 2 keyboard with the final production case design and new modules (the Round 2 keyboard had a working prototype a while back, just with an older case design and modules that were changed to be about 1mm taller to allow for the newly introduced top layer of inner foam above the key modules but below the top inner assembly, just like with the IBM beam spring originals). Two of the plastic module parts are currently in mass production (the beam barrel part A and B). The beam flippers finished production some time ago. The two metal parts will be entering production soon (they are retooling the metal part for beam flipper).
Here is a photo showing the assembly process of the second Round 2 B104 sample. The inner assembly is attached upside down to the bottom case so that it does not slip out of place. One can see that the flipper factory improved the color of the flippers – they are more of a deep black color compared to the dark gray color of the originals. There is no functional difference and no one can see this inside of the keyboard, but the black color is closer to the IBM originals.
[attachimg=1]
The factory is still looking to wrap things up around year end, which means that the keyboards should start going out early next year. Please keep reading for more details on each of the parts.
Drop-in replacement PCB assemblies now available for F62, F77, compact F104, and compact FSSK
I have a bunch of presoldered controller+ribbon cable+large capacitive PCBs that can serve as drop-in replacements for these keyboards in case they are needed. Anyone who needs one or wants a spare please email me for details. It is always good to have a spare that you don’t have to mess around with desoldering and resoldering.
Beam spring production process
After the sample order was assembled and tested back around the end of July, the updated beam barrels (part A and B) for Round 2 were approved for full production and I placed the order. These took a while to get right but I am glad everything is good now. Production is just about done: the modules are still in production, expected to finish around month end, and then they need to be assembled. The press-fit design is going to be saving a lot of assembly time compared to the older glued on washer design.
I also ordered the capacitive PCBs for all 8 beam spring variants and the F122, as well as the Leyden Jar version 3 controller for testing.
The 8 beam spring variants: B62 Split Shift and Regular Backspace, B62 Split Shift and Split Backspace, BSSK ANSI, BSSK ISO, B104 ANSI, B104 ISO, B122 ANSI, B122 ISO
The factory is also preparing the tooling to bend the aluminum cases. Then they will produce a full working sample keyboard of each design for verification, and then the case and inner assembly plates production can start. Then these need to be assembled and sent out on the container ship. The factory already completed a prototype of the new case and inner assembly design earlier this year and it has no issues, but to be safe I want to confirm that the new tooling makes things right for all the parts.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 October 2023, 15:19:24
Rico has released the latest Leyden Jar beta firmware (links below to the firmware and to the PCB). I have tested the firmware with the F122 prototype and everything is working perfectly. As a reminder this controller has the extra 2 columns needed for the F122 and B122.
There was an issue with two keys giving some trouble (the Home key has a higher resting number of 392 compared to ~380 for most others) but it seems to have been resolved after adding in a second bin, replacing the spring, and reseating the key. The firmware has an adjustable bin count (factory default is tentatively set to 2 bins given the unpressed voltage variations). The bins separate the keys into groups based on their unpressed numbers. The downside to more bins is a reduced scanning rate (though I don't think it can be noticed in practice!).
https://github.com/mymakercorner/vial-qmk/tree/leyden_jar
https://github.com/mymakercorner/Leyden_Jar
There is also a terrific new utility that Rico has created (screenshot below) that allows signal level monitoring, entering the bootloader, and monitoring keypresses, among other functions and informational displays. Not shown in the screenshot is the device list and its menu with the signal level monitor, keypress monitor, and enter bootloader buttons, which appear when you click the Device List button.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: reavy on Tue, 17 October 2023, 15:20:38
I'm interested in buying some more keyboards but would like to organize my orders (and mega $$$ spending) to try to get in-stock things sooner if possible.
Thanks!
Edit: I think the latest blog update answers my questions.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 October 2023, 15:44:10
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 October 2023, 18:57:31
https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/4700/GC31-2018-3_Finance_Communication_System_Installation_Planning_upd198311.pdf
It includes some photos and expected specifications of the keyboards.
And here is a great thread by Sneaky Robb including original IBM keyboard prototype switches and a comprehensive article on the development of the Model F from **** Harris:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28325
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 October 2023, 11:44:05
https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-model-f-labs-f77-ultra-compact-review-a-keyboard-from-a-by-gone-age
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 26 October 2023, 16:14:29
https://www.pcworld.com/article/1966306/best-mechanical-keyboards.html
With permission I am sharing the first photos of a new Model F setup with the F50! The new project keyboards started going out this month but there are still many more to ship of each of the three types of keyboards.
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Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 October 2023, 12:22:54
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Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 01 November 2023, 22:36:45
This is not listed on the project site but if anyone needs spare screws / bolts please let me know as I have plenty of them. The zinc case boards use 6-32 x 1/2" thread screws with philips heads. Some of the total screws in each set may have the wrong quantity number so please double check.
As noted earlier the project's T8 M2.5 metric screws were custom molded for this project with various lengths. Below are the metric screw lengths for everyone's reference. Please email me if you need additional sets of screws.
Controller ground screws for all keyboards (2 per keyboard) are 6-32 x 3/16" (keyboards with P clips use these same screws).
The Round 2 keyboards use different screws, primarily those with hex heads or torx heads, specifications to follow later.
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Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 02 November 2023, 21:23:29
Also the number pad has some reversed parts compared to the IBM right-sided number pad block design. I don't recall seeing such a mod before - is this common with left-handed number pad keyboards?
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Post by: Absinthe on Sat, 04 November 2023, 18:55:09
Here are the first photos of the completed and tested M Style FSSK sample; it is configured with the HHKB Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace. Since the ~ ` key is left of the 1 ! key, I was not sure which key to place in the rightmost key of the block, so I selected a blank key. Any ideas on how folks plan on configuring their FSSK layout with such a configuration?
For the M Style case keyboards, wcass has ingeniously updated the PCB design to allow for the same PCB to support both HHKB style split right shift and regular right shift, to cut down on the number of PCB variations.
As noted earlier, these are the rejected sample cases that have defects (casting defects, they did not drill all of the mounts and screws correctly so the inner assembly has sunk inside the keyboard, etc.). Fortunately the keyboard is fully functional in my testing with QMK today.
The case bottoms have 4 holes for optional screw-on bumpers, plus 2 holes to mount a solenoid. The case tops have two internal posts, one to mount a solenoid and one for the P clip (USB cable strain relief).
You can also notice the changes to the interconnections between top and bottom inner assembly
1. They now have additional tabs between the first two rows, just like the IBM F122 and F104 originals. I believe this was done to keep the plates as tight as possible, to allow for the snappiest of clicks upon actuation of each key. The Round 1 compact style F104 and FSSKs do not have these extra tabs. I can tell that the Round 2 boards have some extra clickiness/snappiness to them compared to the Round 1 boards, though both have sufficient clickiness/snappiness.
2. The controller tabs have been modified slightly on the M Style boards to make them simpler and a bit less flexible. Sometimes when unscrewing the controller and adjusting an old bottom inner assembly, the old tabs would move out of position which would require some pliers to move them back into position. They are also slightly taller, to allow for more room between the controller and BIA.
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This looks phenomenal! As for the spare key, I'd program it to open File Explorer. I've a similar 'spare' key on my B.Mini programmed this same way, and it's very convenient.
I need to do some research on how beam spring boards feel to use compared to the tactile switches I have on my boards...
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 November 2023, 18:53:33
Currently the keyboards are discounted about 50% or more and some now sell for less than $200. If you have been holding off joining the project due to lack of funds or because these boards were not affordable now is the time to get a new Model F or beam spring! A lot of folks who have a new Model F are picking up a spare to use at another computer or to keep for future usage.
After 8 years (doesn't time fly! Does 2015 seem a long time ago to everyone here?) these earlier projects are finally winding down. Now is the last chance to get these keyboards. Currently all variations are in stock and expected to ship within 1-4 weeks as I move through the backlog.
Once most of the stock sells out over the coming months, pricing is expected to go back up for those who want any of the final remaining boards. So far more than 4,600 Brand New Model F and Beam Spring keyboards have shipped, with many more in the queue as we wait for the factory to wrap up production.
I also have a number of factory soldered controllers+ribbon cables+capacitive PCBs for the F62 and F77 models. If you are looking to upgrade your keyboard to have the latest USB-C controller or if you want to pick up a drop-in spare replacement please feel free to order the controller plus 30 units of the store item $1 increments which includes the PCB and factory labor costs.
And now for something completely different - a production photo I just came across of the various bottom inner assemblies for all but the Round 2 Model F boards.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: funkmon on Mon, 13 November 2023, 05:45:38
Final sale on the out of production keyboards (F62 / F77 / Round 1 F104 FSSK B104 and BSSK)
Currently the keyboards are discounted about 50% or more and some now sell for less than $200. If you have been holding off joining the project due to lack of funds or because these boards were not affordable now is the time to get a new Model F or beam spring! A lot of folks who have a new Model F are picking up a spare to use at another computer or to keep for future usage.
After 8 years (doesn't time fly! Does 2015 seem a long time ago to everyone here?) these earlier projects are finally winding down. Now is the last chance to get these keyboards. Currently all variations are in stock and expected to ship within 1-4 weeks as I move through the backlog.
Once most of the stock sells out over the coming months, pricing is expected to go back up for those who want any of the final remaining boards. So far more than 4,600 Brand New Model F and Beam Spring keyboards have shipped, with many more in the queue as we wait for the factory to wrap up production.
I also have a number of factory soldered controllers+ribbon cables+capacitive PCBs for the F62 and F77 models. If you are looking to upgrade your keyboard to have the latest USB-C controller or if you want to pick up a drop-in spare replacement please feel free to order the controller plus 30 units of the store item $1 increments which includes the PCB and factory labor costs.
And now for something completely different - a production photo I just came across of the various bottom inner assemblies for all but the Round 2 Model F boards.
(Attachment Link)
I now own I think 5 of these, and I just set up the two I picked up as a result of the sale with the solenoid. I mixed Unicomp and Ellipse grey keys to create kind of a dolch look I don't know if I've seen anybody else do.
(http://i.imgur.com/Jk2mkK1h.jpg)
I'll probably stupidly pick up another F77 compact to add to the all black unit I have.
(https://i.imgur.com/nHEbJhBh.jpeg)
So what is that, 6 XTs, 2 ATs, 1 F107, 2 F122s, and I think 5 remakes (I know at least 4 but I'll have to check my storage unit).
I will say...the solenoid adds quite a lot to the experience. I like it a lot.
However, my units, which are older, came with QMK which sucks balls. I have in the past reinstalled Capsense and the old firmware, which I like, but I think this Via stuff is actually really swell and I flashed the new firmware (the guide didn't work for me; I muddled through and flashed using the QMK tool). I like it. Good move, ellipse.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 15 November 2023, 20:55:34
As an update the corrected pad printing jig was just completed and the factory is now able to move to the next step to further adjust the custom-made pad printing machine for this pad printing. The process has taken far longer than expected. The first jig had some errors and had to be redesigned. As always please do sign the interest form to reserve your pad printed set. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1873Q9wJFyNvJ4-TEBN6P9JbzaVxErbNd-h4XtN1DfNk
We are still not decided on UV coating vs uncoated for the pad printing. I think the uncoated looks nicer and closer to the IBM originals but the UV coating may add some extra longevity to the keys which of course wear down with usage.
Post by: clay on Thu, 16 November 2023, 02:39:30
Final sale on the out of production keyboards (F62 / F77 / Round 1 F104 FSSK B104 and BSSK)
Currently the keyboards are discounted about 50% or more and some now sell for less than $200. If you have been holding off joining the project due to lack of funds or because these boards were not affordable now is the time to get a new Model F or beam spring! A lot of folks who have a new Model F are picking up a spare to use at another computer or to keep for future usage.
After 8 years (doesn't time fly! Does 2015 seem a long time ago to everyone here?) these earlier projects are finally winding down. Now is the last chance to get these keyboards. Currently all variations are in stock and expected to ship within 1-4 weeks as I move through the backlog.
Once most of the stock sells out over the coming months, pricing is expected to go back up for those who want any of the final remaining boards. So far more than 4,600 Brand New Model F and Beam Spring keyboards have shipped, with many more in the queue as we wait for the factory to wrap up production.
I also have a number of factory soldered controllers+ribbon cables+capacitive PCBs for the F62 and F77 models. If you are looking to upgrade your keyboard to have the latest USB-C controller or if you want to pick up a drop-in spare replacement please feel free to order the controller plus 30 units of the store item $1 increments which includes the PCB and factory labor costs.
And now for something completely different - a production photo I just came across of the various bottom inner assemblies for all but the Round 2 Model F boards.
(Attachment Link)
2015 is indeed a long time ago, I was still in high school choosing which university to go to. I mainly used an iPad back then with a chiclet bluetooth keyboard and though that this is as good keyboards get. Not that I cared much keyboards then.
If I may ask, why the decision to stop producing them all in all, instead of making it a readily available product indefinitely? I am not questioning any your decision making, I am just curious. I think the 'limited' production is also enticing.
Post by: funkmon on Thu, 16 November 2023, 06:17:14
Nice photos! Glad to see some unique key setups. Speaking of pad printing:
As an update the corrected pad printing jig was just completed and the factory is now able to move to the next step to further adjust the custom-made pad printing machine for this pad printing. The process has taken far longer than expected. The first jig had some errors and had to be redesigned. As always please do sign the interest form to reserve your pad printed set. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1873Q9wJFyNvJ4-TEBN6P9JbzaVxErbNd-h4XtN1DfNk
We are still not decided on UV coating vs uncoated for the pad printing. I think the uncoated looks nicer and closer to the IBM originals but the UV coating may add some extra longevity to the keys which of course wear down with usage.
It's probably a good idea to do the UV coating. Very few people have ever used the original IBM pad printed keys, and the Unicomp ones which I use are already rarer than hen's teeth. Indeed, the keys you've produced are different to both my M13 keys and the Unicomp keys in how the black plastic looks. A subtle difference is fine - people are comparing them to keys now 30 years old. Longevity should be a primary motivator in my opinion.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 24 November 2023, 22:06:58
Example: https://www.packagingprice.com/tab-locking-mailers.html
From my collection: https://flickr.com/photos/modelfkeyboards/51941436172/in/dateposted-public/
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51941436172_4ac726793b_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n8TrmY)IBM Keyboard Photos (https://flic.kr/p/2n8TrmY) by Model F Keyboards (https://www.flickr.com/photos/modelfkeyboards/), on Flickr
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 27 November 2023, 20:58:39
Today the project passed $3 million in orders! It is great to know there has been so much interest in the old beam spring and Model F keyboards.
For those who have ordered in stock items recently, please note that I am still moving through the backlog but the backlog has grown significantly in recent weeks due to much higher order volume of in stock items. Currently I am working on wrapping up the remaining small project orders (split ergo F15, ortho, and F50) and other orders.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 December 2023, 20:58:59
Always nice to put the faces to the user names of some GH, reddit, and DT forum members.
I brought the Round 2 B104, Round 2 F104, Round 1 Beam 104, and Classic Case F77 to the meetup where folks got to try them out and compare them with other keyboards the people brought.
Post by: ItIsWritten on Mon, 04 December 2023, 02:13:30
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 December 2023, 21:10:16
A design studio and retailer company, JJJJound, purchased some F62 keyboards with a custom keycap design with the intention of reselling. They posted the product today on their blog and everything sold out within one day. (n.b., I still have stock of F62 and F77!).
https://hypebeast.com/2023/12/jjjjound-vintage-mechanical-keyboard
https://www.jjjjound.com/en-jp/blogs/projects/jjjjound-mechanical-keyboard
https://www.jjjjound.com/collections/all/products/jjjjound-mechanical-keyboard-off-white-beige
I have been in talks with other companies to resell / distribute the new Model F keyboards (for example, to have some inventory stock in Europe for faster shipping) but so far no one else has taken this on.
ItIsWritten feel free to check out the many new Model F reviews, some of which are gathered here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/brand-new-model-f-keyboards-may-update/
Post by: ItIsWritten on Sat, 09 December 2023, 02:53:12
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 09 December 2023, 12:25:57
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 December 2023, 21:39:11
Alex from LTT had the Brand New Ultra Compact F104 keyboard custom finished at an automotive paint shop and the result looks nice! It is great to see folks customizing their Model F keyboards!
Direct link to the keyboard portion of the video: https://youtu.be/b5hZVDoifHo?si=BCAgG5l1mYC9Out2&t=1200 (https://youtu.be/b5hZVDoifHo?si=BCAgG5l1mYC9Out2&t=1200)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 December 2023, 20:12:01
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Post by: ipilcher on Thu, 28 December 2023, 08:49:36
Any chance of an update on the classic F104s? AFAICT, the last update was in September, and you thought that they might be starting to ship out around this time.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 December 2023, 11:19:58
Post by: ExcruciatinglyOrdinary on Mon, 29 January 2024, 08:27:53
Post by: NathanA on Wed, 31 January 2024, 01:40:02
Flashing scripts for both Windows and Mac (+ Linux, if you supply your own dfu-programmer) are found in 'flash-scripts/', grouped by keyboard model.
Change log:
- Changes in r4 (from r4b3):
- rename & distribute > r4 release candidate
- Changes in r4b4 / r5b1 (from r4b3):
- Num Lock based layer select feature (intended for split boards and F77 right-side block)
- Added Bourne shell flashing scripts for our *NIX-using friends, and included MacOS-compatible dfu-programmer binary (if you want to use with e.g. Linux you will need to replace 'flash-util/dfu-programmer' with an appropriate binary, or symlink it to one)
- Changes in r4b5 / r5b2 (from r4b4 / r5b1):
- For split keyboards that use the Num Lock shared layer select feature, turn host Num Lock off automatically at keyboard initialization
- Changes in r5 (from r5b2):
- Add support for select Beamspring models: B104r1, BSSKr1, BSSKr2, B62 (B104r2 and B122 matrices are too large for / incompatible with xwhatsit and are not supported)
- Re-introduced separate keyboard layout and keymap options that are installable at flash-time...you can once again select from many common layout options during flash instead of flashing & manually reconfiguring
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 February 2024, 18:09:11
The batch files have been renamed and reorganized to replace abbreviations with language that more closely matches that of the project web site keyboard configuration. Once again a major thanks to NathanA for this enormous undertaking.
As always please do review the manual for instructions before doing any firmware flashing or you'll likely run into errors.
Please do share feedback here after testing this firmware!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/QMK-layout-files.zip
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 20 February 2024, 18:31:42
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
For ease of reference here is a portion of the beginning of the blog, summarizing the current statuses of the various aspects of the projects:
Production Status – when are my orders arriving!
The Round 2 Model F and Beam Spring boards should be wrapping up production and assembly over the next few months and arriving to me around mid-year, a delay from the original expectation of being completed around this current time. All these Round 2 boards should be going out at the same time once they arrive on the container ship, so if someone decides to order an additional board and they have two boards on order then they usually get to skip the additional line and have both boards go out in the same shipment and at the same point in line as their first board.
After assembly and packing is completed, we then have 6-8 weeks for the container shipment and arranging local delivery to me. As I always say, we are at the mercy of the factories for their production timeframes. This low volume project is far from the highest priority but I am thankful that the project can exist without economies of scale.
The factories all understand that the quality control is very important for all these parts so we prefer that they get things right even if it delays things.
A few folks have asked me to switch them to in-stock round 1 boards, such as the ultra compact F104, ultra compact FSSK, ultra compact B104, and ultra compact BSSK, if they prefer not to wait. If interested, please email me as I still have some of these boards left but stock is low and they will not be made again.
Model F specific production status details
Round 2 Model F classic style cases: They made the batch of black cases but we still need to finish the other cases and finish assembly. The factory needs to confirm the finalized case colors and texture before powdercoating can start.
Inner assembly (all F104 and FSSK inner assemblies have been produced and assembled, including the barrels, flippers, PCB, inner foam, and clear mylar sheet).
F122: the F122 sample inner assembly still needs to be approved before F122 TIA and BIA production can start. I am currently evaluating the latest F122 keyboard. So far I see no errors with the inner assemblies.
Keycaps: in preparation for the new boards, I ordered several thousand extra key sets and miscellaneous extra keys which were all completed and are currently on hand, so we do not need to wait for keycap production for the new Model F keyboard designs.
Boxes: the new folding style boxes have been approved for production for all Model F and beam spring boards; the artwork remains the same as before. More details on these boxes are below.
Outside protective foam: has been approved for production. These will be end cap pieces similar to those of the latest classic style F77.
While this does not hold up any Model F production, unfortunately there were production issues with the small batch of new keys for ISO Enter, Code, and PC AT Big Enter. The factory is working on remaking this batch (photos shown below). They will be available in pebble, ISSK Blue, black, and dark gray. As always everyone interested in reserving one of these keys (alone or as part of a set) please sign the Google Form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1vsamkl_jOqp6wAEfZGeivQZ8ZaibpoT0WQkDG39r08Q/
If anyone prefers not to wait and wants to switch to a Round 1 Model F board please let me know by email as I still have some units remaining.
Beam spring production status details
The Round 2 boards still need to finish production and assembly, so I hope that they can arrive to me later this year, around mid-year. As mentioned before things have been delayed from the original hope that they be completed earlier. Like with the Brand New Model F Keyboards project, no one aspect has bottlenecked the project and caused the delay but a number of aspects have taken longer than expected. The factory has their new year break for the next few weeks so things will continue after then.
Same as with the Model F noted above: If anyone prefers not to wait and wants to switch to a Round 1 beam spring board please let me know by email as I still have some units remaining.
Beam modules parts A and B:
Recently completed, but there was an error with part B discovered just before the new year break for the factories, so these parts need to be remade. These took over one year to produce, much longer than expected. Over a hundred thousand parts of each type were produced.
Beam module part B’s (the white part’s) assembly with its metal part has been improved for a nicer looking rounded assembly finish on the nub that is below the metal part. The factory has made thousands of these as part of the updated beam modules (all the ones with the press fit washers on top) and they are nice.
Metal parts for the modules:
The new modules from this February batch now sound great and were just approved for production yesterday, so we are just waiting on part B to be remade. A month earlier I noted this: The new modules using the older metal part for beam flipper sound great and are very close to the IBM originals. The tooling for the metal part for the beam flipper was updated last year but the updated tooling designed to get things even closer needs some work to get the modules as good sounding as possible.
The updated press fit washer mold for the beam modules:
Has been completed and approved, and I believe the factory has finished production of these parts if I remember correctly. This is an update over the original glued metal washer design; it allows for quick and toolless disassembly and repair of the beam modules.
Cases:
All but the beige and industrial gray case colors were approved (I want the colors to be even more accurate to the IBM originals so I rejected those two samples). The paint texture finish is not yet finalized.
Capacitive and controller PCBs:
wcass and Rico have finished the PCBs for the various beam spring models and I ordered the updated samples a few days ago. Rico’s Leyden Jar Rev 3 controller is so far working flawlessly in my testing and these will be the default controllers for the B104 and B122 (plus the F122), though the controllers will hopefully have firmware for all the various Model F and Beam Spring models in the future. As mentioned before, after the ATMEGA32’s run out I expect everything to have the Leyden Jar as the factory-installed controller.
Keys:
The PBT double shot keys and wcass xwhatsit controllers were completed last year.
Boxes:
The box designs have been finalized. The art will be just about the same as the Round 1 boxes shown on the project web site, but the boxes themselves will switch to a tab locking foldable design similar to the boxes IBM used for the original IBM Model F XT and AT keyboards (more details below). I have approved the box designs for production.
The outside protective foam:
Will be similar to the end cap style used on the final production round classic F77 Model F keyboards; after the keyboard samples are approved then they can make the cutting tool for this foam.
Inner foam:
The inner foam that goes between the tops of the modules and the top inner assembly will be evaluated with the forthcoming samples.
Working sample status:
The factory still needs to produce fully working samples of each beam spring keyboard model for my approval, and then mass production and assembly of the remaining case parts can start. The tooling for these cases took months longer than expected to complete. The sample cases and their TIA/BIA’s are completed and are now waiting to be powdercoated and assembled.
Post by: Tempest790 on Thu, 22 February 2024, 08:53:13
Post by: NathanA on Wed, 28 February 2024, 07:37:06
I'll plan to maintain these fixed URLs where the most recent version will always be available for download (at least until I change my mind :) ):
- http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/latest (http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/latest) (most recent firmware bins + source code bundle)
- http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/latest-util-win (http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/latest-util-win) (most recent "pandrew" util for Windows)
- http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/latest-util-mac (http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/latest-util-mac) (most recent "pandrew" util for Macintosh)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 March 2024, 19:51:09
Today the 5,000th Brand New Model F / Beam Spring Keyboard shipped! This is the combined total of all new Model F and Beam Spring keyboards that have been mailed out.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 09 March 2024, 04:15:19
A review and photo of the new Model F Ergo board from someone who can type over 100 WPM!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/18a59ed/my_model_f_ergodox_finally_arrived/
Is there any feedback on the Model F ergo boards from folks who have been using them?
Here's a photo and mini-review of the compact F104 in true red with blue keys:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1899ku6/because_sometimes_you_just_want_different_things/
And from the same poster, the compact f77 in true red with dark gray keys:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/177gl1o/we_need_more_77_key_layouts_like_this/
Here's a recent posting of a classic F62 with HHKB style split right shift:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1904d9z/finally_done_setting_up_my_new_model_f_quite/
Post by: masteraleph on Sat, 09 March 2024, 23:51:57
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 10 March 2024, 00:50:15
Haven't been using the ergo board but I have been using the F15. Absolutely love it. Needed to make some adjustments when I first got it- the entire interior of the board was set slightly too high up in the case, such that the number row keys couldn't fit next to the metal piece between the number rows and the F keys; managed to make it work. I have the Large bumpers on the interior sides and the small square ones on the exterior, so there's a total rise of 7/8" from outside to inside- just about perfect for me. Debating getting another one for work, but I use a mac at work and would presumably need to install Karabiner due to the weird Mac stuff with split keyboards (for those who haven't followed on Deskthority, Macs treat modifier keys from different keyboards completely separately, so Shift on the left keyboard + a letter on the right keyboard still gives a lower case letter and vice versa). I probably could do that, just trying to figure out how I feel about it. I'll likely pick up a separate numberpad for the rare occasions I need one, but the F50 is complete overkill for my use case so I'll be looking elsewhere for that.
Thanks for the feedback masteraleph. My thinking is that somehow the interior bottom inner assembly legs were slightly out of position or that bar on the case was slightly bent out of position but I am glad you were able to get it working (how'd you end up solving the issue?).
Post by: masteraleph on Sun, 10 March 2024, 07:59:58
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 March 2024, 13:24:31
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 March 2024, 18:15:13
I will be bringing some of the new Model F and new Beam Spring boards. Currently there is a waitlist as all tickets have sold out. These meetups are in a nice space and they have been well-attended.
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/nyc-mechanical-keyboard-meetup-april-2024-tickets-849144813997?aff=oddtdtcreator
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 March 2024, 20:58:35
The artwork file had to be created (repositioning Zed's legends for the new file) for the new pad print jig, which has a different arrangement of keys compared to the dye sublimation jigs. The US art has been completed and confirmed, with the additional sets to follow. Next the factory has to create the physical artwork from the file and then start testing the machine with this artwork, both to confirm the alignment for each key within one key set is consistent (artwork distance from top and left edges of the key top surface), and the alignment among various key sets can be done consistently. This process has taken a very long time but we are getting closer to having pad printed buckling spring keys once more!
Additional keys update (ISO Enter non-stepped, PC AT Big Enter, Code key):
The mold needed to be adjusted as the key quality was not good enough. The factory reports that the mold has been updated and they sent some samples to the sublimation factory for evaluation. After they evaluate, they will send some samples my way for evaluation. If approved, then this batch of keys will hopefully be completed, sublimated, and sent to me.
Post by: pupmonster on Fri, 22 March 2024, 21:03:30
I am concerned about the long-term sustainability and availability of the aforementioned bespoke Configurator.
Oh, in case you are wondering why I am not using VIA? Well, I have the QMK Configurator figured out and it works for me. I am also able to put my configs into my GIT repo and have them versioned there. Maybe that works for VIA as well, but I am not sure.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 March 2024, 21:38:57
Deskthority member wolfman is working on the refactoring so that the project is accepted into QMK (more details are on the DT project thread) but it is a slow process. Currently you must use the beta site linked to in the manual if you want to continue using QMK, though it is not recommended unless there is a board that does not yet have a Vial configuration (for example, some of the universal Model F controllers and the controllers for the various original IBM beam spring keyboards).
Post by: pupmonster on Sat, 23 March 2024, 07:12:48
a. On the new not-yet-shipped keyboards (e.g., Classic Style FSSK Model F), if I wish to use the QMK Configurator, I will have to swap out the firmware, correct?
b. Or, on newer Vial Firmware that is now installed on all shipments, such firmware is also compatible with adjustments made with QMK Configurator, correct?
c. On older, already delivered keyboards (roughly vintage <=2022, e.g. F77s and Ultra Compact FSSK Model F), if I wish to use Vial, I have to swap out the firmware, correct?
d. All the default firmware can be found here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/QMK-layout-files.zip, including the latest and greatest for Vial, correct?
Thanks for the clarification, señor!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 March 2024, 23:46:52
b. I don't know; you may want to ask over on Deskthority if the open source Vial code for the new Model F keyboards will work with Vial or if a few things will require adjustment.
c. Yes, most boards run on QMK since Model F Vial is so new. I do flash the latest Vial on some of the boards, such as the round 1 beam 104/ssk and round 1 Model F F104/FSSK, F15, F Ortho, F50, and for those who write a note requesting it. But it is very easy to flash yourself with either Vial or QMK (details are in the recently updated manual on the project website).
d. Yes
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 01 April 2024, 22:07:53
I have just approved production of the final part, the cases, one year and a day after the official announcement of the project on 3/31/23.
The factory estimates that production and final assembly of completed inner assemblies into the cases will be completed by early May now that the cases have been approved. If they can pack everything on the container shipment by mid to late May, then by July these could start going out.
After spending many months, the factory has achieved an excellent match both to the IBM Model F original 4704 and IBM beam spring off-white/beige color as well as to my reference IBM Industrial Model M industrial gray case color. As mentioned earlier, the texture will be a smoother, slightly more modern one, much less bumpy than the (also nice) 4704 keyboard texture.
These same colors were also approved for the beam spring cases, which is why the beige color was a compromise since the IBM beige color varied noticeably among the different powdercoated Model F keyboards and beam spring keyboards in my collection.
From top to bottom: Top photo: NOS F50 (I plan on listing this for sale soon - please PM or email me if interested), approved off-white/beige sample F122 case (sample inner assembly plate not painted), IBM original beam spring keyboard. Bottom photo: approved industrial gray sample case, NOS IBM Industrial Gray Model M case.
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Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 April 2024, 13:15:08
https://www.reddit.com/r/modelf/comments/1beg69i/my_new_model_f_labs_f62_pictures/
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 03 April 2024, 00:07:02
Below are the first photos of the approved F122 keyboard!
The F122 was a trickier PCB design. Once again a big thanks to forum member wcass (the designer of the PCBs for the capacitive projects) for this huge undertaking. There was an issue where a via was too close to a key pad, which resulted in a higher signal level only for that key. wcass updated the PCB by moving the via away from the key and rearranging some of the column ordering to facilitate placement of that via.
Rico expects to have a firmware update ready in the next few days but testing with the old firmware and my testing has shown no issues with some keys being high value. Rico also came up with a workaround to add a bin for such keys, just in case the PCB could not be adjusted to put the outlier key in line with the other keys' signals.
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Post by: clay on Thu, 04 April 2024, 14:38:01
I have just approved production and assembly of the F122 inner assembly, so now the F122 can proceed to completion.
Below are the first photos of the approved F122 keyboard!
The F122 was a trickier PCB design. Once again a big thanks to forum member wcass (the designer of the PCBs for the capacitive projects) for this huge undertaking. There was an issue where a via was too close to a key pad, which resulted in a higher signal level only for that key. wcass updated the PCB by moving the via away from the key and rearranging some of the column ordering to facilitate placement of that via.
Rico expects to have a firmware update ready in the next few days but testing with the old firmware and my testing has shown no issues with some keys being high value. Rico also came up with a workaround to add a bin for such keys, just in case the PCB could not be adjusted to put the outlier key in line with the other keys' signals.
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Hi Ellipse! I really like the design of that board! Does it have a detachable cable? I think a lot of us would appreciate it if the future boards have a USB C connection that can be accessed without opening up the keyboard, so that users can easily connect and disconnect cables.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 April 2024, 14:42:22
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 07 April 2024, 19:05:08
Post by: ksm123 on Tue, 09 April 2024, 03:04:41
I've ordered my Ultracompact F104 on February 29th. Mail label was created on March 16th, package entered postal system on March 19th. I've received it after customs on April 8th (in EU).
Installation, including disassembly and switching to short spacebar and additional modifier took me about an hour. One key required some care to make it work, and ANSI Enter was a little sticky, but I managed to deal with it according to instruction manual. Keyboard worked right after plugging it to a laptop. Additional modifier required dealing with udev rules so VIAL would work, but it wasn't anything excessively complicated.
My suggestions to @Ellipse :
Modify manual by adding information on tools required for each operation. I expected Philips screws and I was surprised that torx screws were used.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 April 2024, 17:49:24
Someone let me know that the New Model F project was mentioned in the Shift Happens book on keyboards! This is a very interesting project to document the various keyboards that have been made.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mwichary/shift-happens
Post by: Tseg on Sun, 14 April 2024, 14:50:37
For all new F and beam models, the controller has a USB-C connector so you can detach the cable from the inside. You can always get a USB-C patch extension cable if you want easy detachability.
With a dremmel tool, $14 USB-C extender, several hours and a bit of luck I adapted my F77 to have an external mount USB-C. I dremmeled away just the right amount of zinc and by luck the two case halves screw together completely but also clamp down on this mount very securely (after sanding some grooves into the mount plastic internal side). While the mod project was rewarding and I'm happy with the result, considering just about all custom keyboards have external USB-C mounts I can only speculate why an external USB-C was never fashioned for this board. Like Steven Spielberg said about making movies, one never really finishes a project, at some point you just give up and put it in market.
All things considered, I'm happy with the purchase.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53654045713_1fbdce495e_z.jpg)