fascinating mod, great pics, awesome write up :)
btw can you post a sound sample (with and without mod) when you get a chance?
I can totally see this working, tho in comparison to the silicon grease mod, I imagine dental floss mod would be much much quieter. With silicon grease mod one can "tune" both the sound level and the feel by increasing or decreasing the size of the grease blob. My guess is that the dental floss mod's results might be more radical than that. (As you said, "the difference is not subtle".) And that said, if I were looking to quiet down my M, I'd most definitely try this mod on for size.
Thanks for the great writeup, sk!
What do I need to do to provide sound samples?? I guess I need a mic (can you recommend one?) and a link to the sound bar that everyone here uses.
Nice! I don't care for sound samples using cheap microphones myself. They cover a limited frequency and all keyboards sound alike for me. Example: try to find a good sound sample of the Model F's refined ping.
Nice photos, skc! I look forward to the sound samples.
I recommend cutting the floss a little shorter than the spring minus hammer stem. Roughly 14 mm is good. If you want to insert bifolded floss for slightly stiffer but even quieter clicks, use 28 mm. That way the floss doesn't stick out of the spring when you put the cap on. If you have too much floss sticking out, the spring might not align well with the little dimple inside the key cap stem.
With 1x floss the keys are free of high-pitch reverberation. It's a good balance between silence and key feel. With 2x floss it may be too stiff and muffled for some people.
Unicomp should find a cheap supplier for the material that the floss is made of or something similar and make this a $10 option. QuietClick and SilentClick, maybe?
Best Model M mod I've seen. Silicone grease is a sloppy mess, can be inconsistent and is not easily reversible. I would never buy a Model M that has had grease. But this mod is nice and clean and requires only pulling caps, I love it!
Or use foam. From SCTony's mod in the AT&T patent post. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7405) The concept is simple - you're trying to dampen the vibrations.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5779&d=1258521975)
One of the reasons I like my mike setup is because I run it through a decent mike preamp. Not a big fan of USB mikes.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3339&stc=1&d=1248581410)
Specifics are in the megasound sample post. I just had the equipment lying around from guitar stuff. USB mikes may have gotten better since the last time I looked.
The concept is simple - you're trying to dampen the vibrations.
Specifics are in the megasound sample post. I just had the equipment lying around from guitar stuff. USB mikes may have gotten better since the last time I looked.
Wow, I knew there was a good use for that fluffy floss I accidentally bought. Thanks, I'll try this on one of my Model Ms.
Have you tried it yet?? What do you think?? Do you like it better? I've simply come to the conclusion that it's different. I'll keep my one board muffled. Very effective, very simple mod.
In the meantime, Super Floss is a really great floss......if you have larger embrasures or any bridgework. Otherwise, regular floss or dentotape probably work just fine.
To make this "floss" mod more successful, I'd advise people to use the two-piece key set. I plucked some keys off of my model F, placed them on my model M, and noticed they were a lot more clattery than the two-piece keys for some reason. Although, they are a lot more responsive and feel more crisp. Strange how a two-piece cap system can be so different.
According to some recent study, only 10% of dental patients actually floss on a regular basis. So I say this to patients. Floss three teeth and smell the floss. If it smells nice and fresh, then you probably don't need to floss :)
few random things --
--sk, can you post sound samples of both 1x and 2x inserts?
--in my view no need to go nuts on recording setup because the average computer speaker wont reproduce it anyway.
--But hey, couldnt hurt, so if you have the time and money, sure, go nuts with the recording quality.
--yarn/wool string -- i wonder if that would work; if it did, its cheap and readily available.
--never had any issues with inconsistent sound quality with the grease mod (ie, from key to key?), but yea its not "fully" reversible.
--longevity of this mod is a question; how will floss or yarn or etc hold up in sound dampening characteristics after, say, 6 months of use? I guess some time will tell.
--the more methods there are available to dampen/mute mechanical boards, the better; personally i'm now curious about how different materials (like yarn) might work when stuffed into these springs. Could get quite creative in selecting and trying different materials, actually. They'd probably give slightly different results, each of which would suit different people better or worse. So yea, the more methods there are (and sound samples/results uploaded and reviewed), the better for everyone.
thanks again sk; this kind of opens up a new branch of 'research' ;)
This is perhaps one of the best quotes I have seen on geekhack!!! I just saw it randomly while scrolling the thread, it's just beautiful... ok I seriously need to go to bed...
*thumbs up again for the mod!!!!* =D
I finally did this to all the keys on my Model M Mini. To try something new I did it with Ultra Floss instead of Super Floss :)
http://www.amazon.com/Oral-B-Ultra-Floss-Dental-Original/dp/B000GGJCFW (less than $5 at CVS.)
Unlike Super Floss, Ultra floss comes in long, 18-inch (0.45m) strands. One pack gives you 55 yards = 50 meters. I only needed 3 strands for the whole board. It is about 2/3 as thick as super floss, so I cut them slightly longer, roughly 15~16mm, to fill the spring.
Since it's thinner, it doesn't remove as much reverberation but enough to make a difference. The click is still very present, and I can safely say that key feel is unaffected.
CVS has its own store brand fluffy floss that's less than $3 a pack. It looks thicker than Super Floss, so I don't know if it will go into the spring as easily, but it's the cheapest thing to try.
Update: Ultra Floss works great on the Model F. Only tried a few keys. The echo of spring bouncing back is gone and nothing else is affected. 15mm is good.
If you look closely at the Model F keys vs the Model M keys, you'll see that they're a little different. The Model F keys sort of rotate and wobble a bit and the cylinders themselves are separate pieces that also wobble and spin slightly. A much more fair comparison would be Model M one-piece vs. Model M two-piece keycaps.
I prefer the Model M one-piece caps for a variety of reasons......mostly because I find them more responsive and crisp. They're also easier to clean, remove, install etc....
Maybe we could get Rip to post some sound clips of one piece vs. two piece Model M caps? They sound different too.
In the meantime if anyone out there prefers the two piece keycaps, please PM me for a trade. I look for Space Saving Minis these days with the one piece keycaps. Seems random how IBM decided which caps go on which boards??
You could... uh... always order some from unicomp.
But I like two-piece keys.
Playing around with this floss thing. Using the Ultra floss. I'm putting about an inch of floss in the springs. I'm using 1pc keys on the M13.
So far my result are OK, not drastic. The result is a lot less pingy. It's a bit quieter, not at all silent. The keys seem to require the same amount of force but they feel a little less lively than before, a bit more dull than than they previously were.
The spring-ping on the rebound is totally gone, which is a big win for this method.
Link (embed is being weird) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkfiOAJNZA
Any suggests? I'm going to keep experimenting.
Playing around with this floss thing. Using the Ultra floss. I'm putting about an inch of floss in the springs. I'm using 1pc keys on the M13.
So far my result are OK, not drastic. The result is a lot less pingy. It's a bit quieter, not at all silent. The keys seem to require the same amount of force but they feel a little less lively than before, a bit more dull than than they previously were.
The spring-ping on the rebound is totally gone, which is a big win for this method.
Link (embed is being weird) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkfiOAJNZA
Any suggests? I'm going to keep experimenting.
wellie- haven't greased it yet. I've shifted that to the last resort given how hard it would be to reverse.
Hey.....I saw your response over on the off topic Health Care thread. Thanks for the taking the time. I promise to respond thoroughly at some point today. I find that most people don't have a clue with regards to health care. Hell.....most of my patients count on "us" to provide info regarding benefits, max allowed, and half the patients don't even know the difference btwn dental and medical benefits LOL.
So when patients complain to me that we need to overhaul healthcare and then proceed to tell me that our government should and will foot the bill (!@$@%@????), I immediately attempt to divert the conversation over to mechanical keyboards. :)
On another note, when do I get some keys dammit :))
I'd like to pay a premium for some prototypes, one-offs, and some hand signed collectibles. Have money for keycaps......will spend!!
skc
These health care professionals make faaar too much money ;)
Unicomp only has two piece standard beige/grey Model M keys. And as Chuck always reminds me, once they run out, they will be much more expensive than they are now.
I know a lot of Geekhackers prefer the two piece keys.
Hey, I LIKE it! This mod definitely appears to work better than the grease mod. UltraFloss dampens the sound more than grease or the nut/bolt mod. Not Topre silent though - that's a bit of an exaggeration.
>[/youtube]
I'll post some sound samples later.
Hey, I LIKE it! This mod definitely appears to work better than the grease mod. UltraFloss dampens the sound more than grease or the nut/bolt mod. Not Topre silent though - that's a bit of an exaggeration.
I'll post some sound samples later.
Last night I spend some time tweaking individual keys--adding about 2mm of can bring you from the level I record at in my video to something more like what skcheng was talking about. Something almost like a cherry brown but with a more tactile click. I'm not sure that I'll ever get them all exactly the same though!
btw- I've only been using Ultra. They don't seem to sell Super around me. I haven't doubled it up-that would be too much. I'm just tweaking the length of each piece.
The Oral-B Ultrafloss in the plastic pack is thicker than the SuperFloss in the box with the braces threader end.
I didn't hear much difference in your video. Might be your microphone.
>[/youtube]
Nooooo! The ping is what makes it fun!
BTW, discovered a pretty severely jammed hammer (F9) on the mini from you. Took some aggressive screwdriver-ing to free it, but all is good now.
That's weird. I checked all of the keys before shipping that sucker. I wonder how that happened??
I guess I could buy the thinner Oral-B Ultrafloss — perhaps that is the kind that can be just dropped straight into the springs, without having to resort to stuffing.
Will post my results once I can find some of this "fluffy" floss
Thought I should resurrect this thread rather than start a new one :))
I'm currently in the process of floss modding my SSK after having given it a clean and the keycaps a good denture bath at the weekend - the difference is amazing :D You still get the click and the tactile feel but without anything ringing like a bell! I'd suggest it to anyone with the patience to do it - in my experience it's very temperamental - too much floss and you lose the click altogether... Here's a video comparing before and after
Cut the pieces, put them in the spring, put the keycap back and your done!
Thought I should resurrect this thread rather than start a new one :))
I'm currently in the process of floss modding my SSK after having given it a clean and the keycaps a good denture bath at the weekend - the difference is amazing :D You still get the click and the tactile feel but without anything ringing like a bell! I'd suggest it to anyone with the patience to do it - in my experience it's very temperamental - too much floss and you lose the click altogether... Here's a video comparing before and after
"This video is private" :(
The whole thing becomes softer and more numb and therefore provides less feedback.
The worst for me is that it changes the height at which the spring collapses. Modded keys trigger sooner - if you press a modded and unmodded key down slowly at same rate, modded key will click first.
To me, this is a big plus. I like high actuation points.
Also, the amount of floss has a big effect. It needs to come up halfway, because that is where the spring buckles. But there are big differences between 60%-70%-80%-90%-100% floss fills.
I need to figure out how to get the half strand out first, before I apply it to more keys. Seems hard to reach, maybe with vacuum cleaner.
I need to figure out how to get the half strand out first, before I apply it to more keys. Seems hard to reach, maybe with vacuum cleaner.
Get a pin or needle and bend an extremely small hook in the end of it.
Or, if you fish, straighten out a hook and use the barb.
All Aboard the Necro Train!i decided to floss mod my 87' SSK yesterday so i shot a short video for those on the fence about whether or not they want to try it.
Alphas + Modifiers (minus the FRow) are flossed. Thanks for this how to skcheng i didnt think i could enjoy this board anymore until i felt 1piece caps w/ the floss mod
Good sized Necro, but just wanted to throw up my floss modded video in the mix for my modded AT.
Good sized Necro, but just wanted to throw up my floss modded video in the mix for my modded AT.
Great video! This seems like a pretty cool idea. Does it feel any different to type on floss-modded buckling springs or is it mainly just an auditory difference?