[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Techno Trousers]

Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?

It's right about 65 grams in weight, with a big tactile bump. To me the closest equivalent would be 65 gram ergo Clears. But as said above, it makes a huge amount of clatter when you're going full speed, which I love too.

[atlas3686]

Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?

It's right about 65 grams in weight, with a big tactile bump. To me the closest equivalent would be 65 gram ergo Clears. But as said above, it makes a huge amount of clatter when you're going full speed, which I love too.

Exactly, it always sounds like you really hard at work when typing on BS. I can easily hear my GF typing furiously from the other room  )

[ryahirv]

So that Ellipse could do planning, I just wanted to share that I'm bowing out.

The project is incredible and so so cool, but unfortunately the noise is a factor for me and my situation.

Excited to keep following along, but sadly won't be buying, just so it's known for capacity/demand planning.

Cheers all

[ctm]

Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?

They are loud as hell and do have a sort of bump to them from what I remember lol I haven't touched one in a looooong time
I haven't used many MX switches but I'd say it's closest to either blue or greens :s

I have a MX blue board and a MX green on switch tester. I also tried Unicomp Model M of a friend's. Though they are all clicky switches, they are very different. I haven't tried Model F capacitive spring but I don't think they will be similar to Cherry clicky.

[FrostyToast]

Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?

They are loud as hell and do have a sort of bump to them from what I remember lol I haven't touched one in a looooong time
I haven't used many MX switches but I'd say it's closest to either blue or greens :s

I have a MX blue board and a MX green on switch tester. I also tried Unicomp Model M of a friend's. Though they are all clicky switches, they are very different. I haven't tried Model F capacitive spring but I don't think they will be similar to Cherry clicky.

Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.

[Elrick]

Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.

It's the youngsters here who only know about MX switches and nothing else.  You can't blame them in making comparisons with that famous German designed switch because that's all they know, I suspect as they all grow old they will encounter other switches that will elevate their opinions somewhat.

When they purchase an Ellipse keyboard then all bets are off, they will become firm Model-F addicts after experiencing this keyboard  .

[Ir0n]

Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.

It's the youngsters here who only know about MX switches and nothing else.  You can't blame them in making comparisons with that famous German designed switch because that's all they know, I suspect as they all grow old they will encounter other switches that will elevate their opinions somewhat.

When they purchase an Ellipse keyboard then all bets are off, they will become firm Model-F addicts after experiencing this keyboard  .

I mean I've used both
the sound is just a lot louder and it's like...tingy  I never said identical though but it's the closest MX switches I've used

Just helps with getting an idea that's all just trying to help

and I don't know about becoming an addict but it will be fun typing on one when I'm not playing games :3 

[Melvang]

Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.

It's the youngsters here who only know about MX switches and nothing else.  You can't blame them in making comparisons with that famous German designed switch because that's all they know, I suspect as they all grow old they will encounter other switches that will elevate their opinions somewhat.

When they purchase an Ellipse keyboard then all bets are off, they will become firm Model-F addicts after experiencing this keyboard  .

I mean I've used both
the sound is just a lot louder and it's like...tingy  I never said identical though but it's the closest MX switches I've used

Just helps with getting an idea that's all just trying to help

and I don't know about becoming an addict but it will be fun typing on one when I'm not playing games :3

The ping and ting comes from the springs vibrating a bit on each keypress.  This can be all but killed with a floss mod.  My AT resides in my keyboard tray with no case and there is zero noticeably ping.  Outside of this I feel that BS isn't all that much louder than MX blues, but is a lower tone and seems to carry farther.

[Ellipse]

I have found that no two Model F keyboards of mine sound or feel the same (I have several dozen F's and M's in my collection). The different foam (and its state of degradation) and spring materials/tensions and slight variations in inner assembly "sandwich" compression between units probably contribute to these differences.  Some are quieter/mushier while others are crisp and/or reverberant.

[Ir0n]

Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it

last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade

everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol

[Melvang]

Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it

last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade

everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol

While I use an orbweaver for gaming, that choice is for the matrix like layout with a decent thumb stick.  If I could find that layout of keys in F internals, I would game on it in a heartbeat.  But not M internals.  My nature of the membrane vs capacitive pcb, F essentially has natural NKRO, and chances are we will never see an M with more than 2kro outside a converter with a queue system.

[Muffinbottoms]

No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.

Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something Seriously though I cannot wait!

Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things

[njbair]

No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.

Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something Seriously though I cannot wait!

Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things

Elrick has a way with words that inspires the masses. Maybe it's because I picture him sounding just like the great Paul Hogan, or maybe it's his sheer eloquence and obvious passion for quality keyboards and keycaps, but when Elrick posts, I shed a tear.

GB leaders all around the globe fall to their knees and pray nightly that Elrick will take a liking to their projects, because once Elrick gets involved it's an express train right to MOQ town, baby!

See what I did there? I just hyped Elrick.

[Muffinbottoms]

More

No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.

Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something Seriously though I cannot wait!

Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things

Elrick has a way with words that inspires the masses. Maybe it's because I picture him sounding just like the great Paul Hogan, or maybe it's his sheer eloquence and obvious passion for quality keyboards and keycaps, but when Elrick posts, I shed a tear.

GB leaders all around the globe fall to their knees and pray nightly that Elrick will take a liking to their projects, because once Elrick gets involved it's an express train right to MOQ town, baby!

See what I did there? I just hyped Elrick.

The circle is now complete. When you left him, you were but the learner, now you are the master.

[Elrick]

Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things

SSSShhheeet sunshine, I'm into one F77 but the longer this goes on I shall get another one as back up for the future when the ankle biters decide to ruin one, which shall be the last thing they will ever do.

Never trust any youngster around any worth while keyboard......

[atlas3686]

Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it

last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade

everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol

I was using my SSK as my daily at home for ages which meant all my gaming was done on it. Played quite a bit of TF2 and Starcraft and a couple other games. It was a little weird at first, especially TF2 but once I got used to it I quite enjoyed it. In fact this board is gonna be my home daily so it's gonna be used for a lot of gaming. I think as long as you not playing professionally it's perfectly good.

[user 18]

I used to play Dark Souls on my 1391401 Model M because it was the only fullsize board I had out and I needed the numpad. Because I was using it for one game, I figured I'd try it out for others as well. I also found it a little tricky to get used to the heavier keys, but after the first little bit it was pretty fun. I'm by no means top tier, but I was able to do as well in TF2 as I usually do with my QFR in pubs. Didn't ever try playing lobbies or competitive games with it, just because of the noise level.

In fact, reading this thread reminded me that I need to give my M some more love. Will be watching for the buy to start, I'm very interested in these boards and all the impressive design work that went into them. Don't know if I can scrape together the cash, but either way this is a great step for the community. Kudos Ellipse for all the hard work you've put into this!

[geniekid]

Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it
[...]

I've played a good number of my games without problem on my SSK (DOTA2, HotS, D3, SC2, TF2, Chip's Challenge).  Even though Model Ms are 2KRO the 2 is lower bound and most 3-4 key combinations will register fine.  Model Fs suffer from layout issues but these can be resolved if they are programmable.

There are a couple of reasons why I wouldn't make a buckling spring my primary gaming keyboard.  The first is that Ms are loud and Fs are louder.  They can easily be heard through two sets of *normal* household doors.  The second is that I prefer linear switches for games.  Audio/tactile feedback from the switch isn't necessary and the cost of that feedback is hysteresis.  It's more of an annoyance than an actual disadvantage for me but for a more competitive player it might make a real difference.

[diqkiq]

Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it

last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade

everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol

I used my model m for a bout a year playing wow. That was until my my wife had enough of the clickity clack till early morning. I changed to mx blacks. I didn't think about how much noise I was making.

[Ellipse]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

[Snowdog993]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

A new barrel design perhaps?  Something different?  Some other material?  I don't know.

[njbair]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

Check my signature for a link to my SSK rubber band mod. I've got some high quality audio samples in that post so you can hear the result.

[Elrick]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

Please don't try to do this because someone will always want a SUPER quiet keyboard and any attempts by you to provide it, won't please anyone at all.

The ones who are 'sqweamish' about loud keyboards (wusses) need to apply their own methods on their keyboards because the rest of us 'normals' will always love the full breadth sound, of this American Kick-Arse Switch  .

When I get these keyboards I want my next door neighbour to hear about it, especially around 2 or 3 in the morning  .

[Ellipse]

No worries Elrick these F62/F77 keyboards will not be modified. 

[Melvang]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

I don't feel that they material for the mat makes any noticeable difference in the noise of the mighty F.  However, if one were to fill the cavities with a bit of sound deadening material similar to what is found in large sub enclosures, that might help a little.  Though, I think the majority comes form doing a floss mod.  If you do this, don't spend the money on dental floss.  Just get some paracord, and use the interior core strands.  Works just as good, and you get much more material for the dollar.  Keep in mind that paracord 550 has 7 core strands.  So, if you pick up 100 yards of paracord, you get 700 yards of core strands for doing floss mods.  I find that this material doesn't affect the feel hardly at all. And all it does to the sound is take out the high frequency rings and pings from the springs vibrating.

[dorkvader]

I have found that no two Model F keyboards of mine sound or feel the same (I have several dozen F's and M's in my collection). The different foam (and its state of degradation) and spring materials/tensions and slight variations in inner assembly "sandwich" compression between units probably contribute to these differences.  Some are quieter/mushier while others are crisp and/or reverberant.

this has been my experience as well. All my F122's from the oldest known, to a NIB one, to the most recent known, they are all subtly different. This is of course especially true across the different model F variants. I have 8 or 10 different ones I think and they are unique.

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

fundamentally you need to reduce the intensity of vibrations by reducing the power directly (typing slower), spreading out the energy across more time (lower power) or by spreading out the same power across a larger frequency band to make it "seem" quieter.

Firstly to reduce "ping" and keep the spring from adding to the noise, a damping material like the floss mod will work. After that, decoupling the vibrating mechanism from a resonating cavity is a good option to look at. You can "isolate" the barrel assembly form the plate with an o-ring or different types of foam. If you consider the (now obsolete) "model F bolt mod" you can account for very different types of material this way at the expense of added complexity and potential reliability concerns. That said, it would allow you to test many different materials and methods before settling one one.

I think the biggest thing you can do to improve on the F design is to improve how the plates are connected. The way the F was designed, it would still work (consistently) across wide manufacturing tolerances of the time. Since we have MUCH better manufacturing today we can eliminate these decisions to deliver a more consistent experience. The way the plates are connected is an example of this.

[Vizir]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

[Elrick]

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?

Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... 

[Melvang]

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?

Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... 

For the record, even with zero ring or ping, these boards sound nothing like Topper, cherry, or even M buckling springs.  My AT has a floss mod, and rattle can plasti dip on both sides of both plates.  It doesn't ring at all, but still has all the wonderful buckling spring thock.  However, mine does not sit in any case.  Just the plates in my desk.

[rowdy]

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?

Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... 

+1

The noise is part of the reason why we want these keyboards, right?

[romevi]

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?

Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... 

+1

The noise is part of the reason why we want these keyboards, right?

I can understand silencing a Topre since they're tactile and already quieter than clicky boards, but silencing an IBM board? I never thought anyone would want to silence one!

[atlas3686]

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?

Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... 

+1

The noise is part of the reason why we want these keyboards, right?

It is for me!

[jonathanyu]

What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard?  I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?

Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise?  Any particular examples/successes you can share?

I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.

This sounds like the best way to ruin a bs board

[Vizir]

I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.

[Elrick]

I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.

Damn straight boy, you want BS then you have to love the Click, nothing else compares or is even within the same hemisphere of this unique switch.

PLUS this shall be the ONLY manufactured example giving us addicts the REAL experience of this fantastic keyboard, so don't ever slip into the pathetic darkness of being another 'quiet person'.  Live LARGE and don't give a sh1t about anyone else in this world.

This keyboard is for those that appreciate that TRUE mechanical keyboard without equal and EVERYONE shall hear this perfection, when it's plugged into your PC  .

[Bevo]

I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.

Damn straight boy, you want BS then you have to love the Click, nothing else compares or is even within the same hemisphere of this unique switch.

PLUS this shall be the ONLY manufactured example giving us addicts the REAL experience of this fantastic keyboard, so don't ever slip into the pathetic darkness of being another 'quiet person'.  Live LARGE and don't give a sh1t about anyone else in this world.

This keyboard is for those that appreciate that TRUE mechanical keyboard without equal and EVERYONE shall hear this perfection, when it's plugged into your PC  .

I see why you call yourself the hype master...

[Ir0n]

I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.

Damn straight boy, you want BS then you have to love the Click, nothing else compares or is even within the same hemisphere of this unique switch.

PLUS this shall be the ONLY manufactured example giving us addicts the REAL experience of this fantastic keyboard, so don't ever slip into the pathetic darkness of being another 'quiet person'.  Live LARGE and don't give a sh1t about anyone else in this world.

This keyboard is for those that appreciate that TRUE mechanical keyboard without equal and EVERYONE shall hear this perfection, when it's plugged into your PC  .

I see why you call yourself the hype master...

If he keeps it up my adblock might start mistaking his post for ads.. Lol

It's nice to hear people game with these and Model Ms
I think I might just get a old model M Or F to game with and give it a shot! Then I can just use the keycaps or ..most of them anyways in the case of F (F also needs some work to make work on modern PCs)  ;o

If anyone is interested in trying a BS board out before diving into this buy ander posted a great deal on model Ms https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77273.0
then like I said you can just use those keycaps then you'll have model M and a kishsaver ooooo I think the caps on unicomp are 10 bucks cheaper but this way you get a whole keyboard lol you just gotta swap ;x

[Ellipse]

Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them. 

[romevi]

Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them.

I wish I didn't read that. Now I'm going to have nightmares.

[atlas3686]

Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them. 

How does this happen, are they not interested in making money!

[romevi]

Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them. 

How does this happen, are they not interested in making money!

They may have been told by higher-ups to destroy them.
I remember once I worked at a place that always destroyed out-of-season stock. When I asked if I could have something that was being tossed out, the manager said no and that I could get in trouble if I take it.

It's a waste, I know, but it's still company property even to the trash can.

[atlas3686]

Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them. 

How does this happen, are they not interested in making money!

They may have been told by higher-ups to destroy them.
I remember once I worked at a place that always destroyed out-of-season stock. When I asked if I could have something that was being tossed out, the manager said no and that I could get in trouble if I take it.

It's a waste, I know, but it's still company property even to the trash can.

Oh for sure but this is a recycler! Surely they would be keen to sell stuff but I guess not.

[Snowdog993]

No worries Elrick these F62/F77 keyboards will not be modified.

That is good to hear!

[Elrick]

I see why you call yourself the hype master...

You know what's really hilarious, I can't label myself as anything here on GH - it's the ones running this show that handed me this label  .

Prefer to be another faceless keyboard collector and nothing else........

[rowdy]

I see why you call yourself the hype master...

You know what's really hilarious, I can't label myself as anything here on GH - it's the ones running this show that handed me this label  .

Prefer to be another faceless keyboard collector and nothing else........

I think you've gone a little but beyond that ...

[Ellipse]

Still no new updates - the factory is taking longer than expected to wrap up the prototypes:  final case powdercoating, inner foam, outer foam, box, and assembly are still on their to do list.

[tofgerl]

I think it's cute

[iss]

Ellipse- are you still planning to offer in-person testing of the prototypes in NYC?

[Ellipse]

Yep

[Elrick]

Still no new updates - the factory is taking longer than expected to wrap up the prototypes:  final case powdercoating, inner foam, outer foam, box, and assembly are still on their to do list.

That's always to be expected because it looks like this whole keyboard is 100% hand made by individuals, would like to see their final work but I'm confident that they will do a good job.

You've got some real talented Chinese artisans out there so not everyone is working to make cheap quality garbage for a couple dollars a day.  We get inundated with mostly cheap crap here in the west, so we haven't yet experienced true quality workmanship from them yet.  Hoping this venture will change that here especially getting an old American keyboard design in front of us for daily usage  .