Author Topic: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES  (Read 1541681 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #250 on: Fri, 20 February 2015, 10:29:54 »

Offline Gerk

  • Posts: 448
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #251 on: Fri, 20 February 2015, 10:45:20 »
So I guess that means they are shipping already ... didn't get an email notification about it yet (neither did that person).   Maybe I better go check my mailbox! :)
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #252 on: Fri, 20 February 2015, 21:47:47 »
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can’t wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #253 on: Fri, 20 February 2015, 21:56:32 »
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can't wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)


You can see them here...  (silver screws)




Offline FullTwisting

  • Posts: 1
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #254 on: Sat, 21 February 2015, 14:10:39 »
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can't wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)


You can see them here...  (silver screws)


Show Image

Does this mean that tripods and palm wrests are mutually exclusive?  I expected to see a dedicated tripod mount in the middle.  I was hoping to retain the palm wrests and use small tripods to achieve tent and tilt at the same time, since it looks like the keyboard itself only supports tenting OR tilting.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #255 on: Sat, 21 February 2015, 15:25:39 »
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can't wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)


You can see them here...  (silver screws)


Show Image

Does this mean that tripods and palm wrests are mutually exclusive?  I expected to see a dedicated tripod mount in the middle.  I was hoping to retain the palm wrests and use small tripods to achieve tent and tilt at the same time, since it looks like the keyboard itself only supports tenting OR tilting.


No, not at all...

You just remove the centre screw on each side, and that becomes the mounting hole for each tripod.  It works with or without the palm supports.


Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #256 on: Sun, 22 February 2015, 15:09:30 »
The bcredbottle sideshow has clearly gotten out of hand, so I've moved all those messages to a new topic.

Anyone who wants to engage further with him is encouraged to go there.


Offline bcredbottle

  • Posts: 695
  • Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #257 on: Sun, 22 February 2015, 15:20:35 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 October 2019, 13:01:03 by bcredbottle »

Offline Hairball

  • Posts: 30
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #258 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 16:53:28 »
*ahem* Back on topic now  ;)

If I were to place an order now would I still get in on the 2nd production run scheduled to ship in March?  Very interested here...  :D

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #259 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 18:45:53 »
*ahem* Back on topic now  ;)

If I were to place an order now would I still get in on the 2nd production run scheduled to ship in March?  Very interested here...  :D


Yes, production would happen in March but you'd likely get it in April.

BTW, we've gotten a bunch of people unhappy about the position of the NumLock key (next to the N key).  They prefer it to be Ctrl instead.  That would mean that NumLock would change to an Fn-key combination.

Anybody have strong feelings about this?  There's still time to change it, depending on the consensus.


Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

  • Posts: 321
  • Location: Colorado, USA
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #260 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 18:59:25 »
I'd prefer it to be a Ctrl key. It sounds a lot more useful than numlock.

Offline litster

  • Posts: 2890
  • rare caps?! THAT'S A SMILIN
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #261 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:05:03 »
Yep, Ctrl is better and more useful than NumLock.  There should be a lot more people using the Ctrl key than to use the built-in numpad.  Looks like you already have the new layout on your site.

91768-0

Offline FullTwisting

  • Posts: 1
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #262 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 22:19:02 »
BTW, we've gotten a bunch of people unhappy about the position of the NumLock key (next to the N key).  They prefer it to be Ctrl instead.  That would mean that NumLock would change to an Fn-key combination.

Anybody have strong feelings about this?  There's still time to change it, depending on the consensus.

I would prefer Ctrl.

I hope that makes it into the next run since I've pre-ordered.

I was expecting the Ctrl based on this diagram:  http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/?p=2

I read about a dip switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl.  Was that implemented?

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #263 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 22:33:52 »

I read about a dip switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl.  Was that implemented?



Yes, here are the DIP switch functions available...



91780-0



Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #264 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 23:01:07 »

BTW, we've gotten a bunch of people unhappy about the position of the NumLock key (next to the N key).  They prefer it to be Ctrl instead.  That would mean that NumLock would change to an Fn-key combination.

Anybody have strong feelings about this?  There's still time to change it, depending on the consensus.

I would argue for control also. It's useful to have as many modifiers as possible in both sides of a keyboard, so that one handed contortions can be avoided.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline crazystu

  • Posts: 32
  • Location: New Zealand
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #265 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 00:06:08 »
I've received my Ergo Pro, and I am typing on it now - feels really nice, comfortable, and solid. I think the matte plastic also looks much better than what I've seen of the shiny outer casings on other Matias keyboards.
I would also argue for Ctrl to be to the left of N in future runs, as I don't think num-lock will be used very often.

Offline zxz

  • Posts: 4
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #266 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:23:27 »
I'd also prefer CTRL for the ISO version

Offline h1ro

  • Posts: 10
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #267 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:27:49 »
I must admit that when I pre ordered I thought that the key in question was a control, as is shown on the layout picture on the website. I somehow missed the entire conversation where this was being argued. I too would vote for it to be a control. Maybe if numlock is a heavy pc user request it could be built into the pc layout and control on the Mac layout?

Offline SilverRubicon

  • Posts: 14
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #268 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:53:01 »
Maybe if numlock is a heavy pc user request

Have never used numlock in my entire life.  Can't believe anyone would be clamoring for a numlock key in that position.  But I'm a developer and typing strings of numbers is not my thing.  If typing numbers was my thing, I'd purchase a keyboard with a num pad.  Don't really understand the need for the numlock in a prominent position.

« Last Edit: Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:56:40 by SilverRubicon »

Offline FullTwisting

  • Posts: 1
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #269 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:35:07 »

I read about a dip switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl.  Was that implemented?



Yes, here are the DIP switch functions available...




Thank you, that's good to see.

Can you clarify one thing for me please?  The word "swap" is throwing me off.  Does this dip switch "swap" the code sent by the Caps Lock key and the Ctrl keys?  In other words, if I toggle this dip switch, will the left Ctrl key start acting like a Caps Lock?  I'm hoping that this dip switch simply remaps Caps Lock to Ctrl.  Caps lock has no place in my life!   ;)

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #270 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:39:01 »
Hopefully, it swaps them. You can still remap Caps Lock to something actually useful, such a layer toggle, backspace, etc.

Offline FullTwisting

  • Posts: 1
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #271 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:13:04 »
Hopefully, it swaps them. You can still remap Caps Lock to something actually useful, such a layer toggle, backspace, etc.

That's an interesting thought.  Do other keyboards that support Ctrl tweaking behave that way?  My WASD Code can change the Caps Lock to a Ctrl, but leaves the existing Ctrl alone.  For my MS Ergo 4000, I've modified the Windows registry to remap Caps Lock to Ctrl, so I'm used to having no Caps Lock at all.  So, for that one machine I don't need to worry about it, but having a dip switch like the one on my Code makes it portable, meaning I don't have to mess with the Registry to have my keyboard work "correctly" on other computers.   ;D

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #272 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:20:25 »
There is no need to have 2 control keys in the same side of a keyboard.
Besides, many people use caps lock. Swapping would be the proper design choice for Matias.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #273 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 00:28:28 »
Yes, the DIP switch for swapping Ctrl / Caps Lock does swap them -- Ctrl moves up and Caps Lock moves down to Ctrl's former position.

Remember, we designed this for a broad audience (not just for one person with a vandetta against the Caps Lock key  :) ).


Offline nobodysbusiness

  • Posts: 2
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #274 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 10:41:29 »
I've just received my ErgoPro this morning. I'm typing this message on it right now. I really like the feel of the switches; I don't think that they're any louder than the other "normal" keyboards elsewhere in the office, though I do admit that they have a slightly different sound.

Anyway, I'd like to weigh in on the Num Lock vs. Ctrl issue. I think that there's actually two separate things to think about here.

First, there's the question of whether the Num Lock key or the Ctrl key is more useful. I have a strong feeling about this based on my usage; others may disagree. Let me ask you this: do you know what the default host key is for VirtualBox? No, it's not the "Ctrl" key. It's actually "Right Ctrl" specifically! So, yeah, I definitely want to vote for "Ctrl" being the key beside the "N".

Second, there seems to be some confusion regarding the expected layouts for the keyboards. I just went over and checked the layout pictures on the official Matias web-site, and they seem to show the key as being "Ctrl" rather than "Num Lock" (this is true for both Mac and PC versions). My question is: have the layout pictures always been like this? Or have they been updated in the months since I originally ordered? If you're going to put a "Num Lock" key there, then you should definitely update those pictures.

Given that I've already received my ErgoPro keyboard, is there any chance that I could perhaps order a "Ctrl" keycap to replace the current "Num Lock" one? If I can somehow re-map the key and replace the keycap, then that would solve what is basically my only issue with the keyboard.

Thanks, and great work on the design of the keyboard!

Offline h1ro

  • Posts: 10
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #275 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 13:16:06 »
Mine just arrived in the UK and am typing on it now.

It has to be said, the space bar is a work of art.

Using the tenting, the keyboard feels very solid and wobble-free. There are rubber stops in pretty much any position so I don't think anyone should have any issues with keyboard slipping.

But why does the angled usb plug go to the left, rather than the right? So as it connects on the right part of the keyboard, the usb cable trails across the space between panels, rather than if it angled to the right it could just go down the side of the desk. That doesn't make any sense to me!

As a first timer on Matias Quiet switches, they really don't make much noise at all.

Anyone have any questions?

Offline Hairball

  • Posts: 30
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #276 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 13:20:18 »
It has to be said, the space bar is a work of art.
Ooh, can you expand on this a bit?  What is it you like about it compared to "normal" space bars?

Quote
As a first timer on Matias Quiet switches, they really don't make much noise at all.
Have you used other mechanical keyboards?  If so, can you compare the feel of the switches to Cherry MX (what I'm most familiar with, blues or browns in particular.)

Thanks!

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #277 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 13:36:23 »
can you compare the feel of [Matias quiet] switches to Cherry MX
The closest you’ll get in a Cherry MX switch is either a clear switch modded with a lighter (“korean” 65g perhaps?) spring, or else a blue switch with the “jailhouse” mod, where the two parts of the slider are held apart with some wire or an o-ring. Those still aren’t great comparisons though.

Compared to MX brown, Matias quiet switches are quieter on both down and upstroke, dramatically more tactile (much larger force drop, and crisper), somewhat stiffer (though still not as stiff as MX clear, black, or green), and with a tactile/actuation point much earlier in the stroke.

Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #278 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 14:01:23 »
Mine just arrived in the UK and am typing on it now.

It has to be said, the space bar is a work of art.

Using the tenting, the keyboard feels very solid and wobble-free. There are rubber stops in pretty much any position so I don't think anyone should have any issues with keyboard slipping.

But why does the angled usb plug go to the left, rather than the right? So as it connects on the right part of the keyboard, the usb cable trails across the space between panels, rather than if it angled to the right it could just go down the side of the desk. That doesn't make any sense to me!

As a first timer on Matias Quiet switches, they really don't make much noise at all.

Anyone have any questions?
My box had two USB cables, one angles to the left and the other to the right.  Ended up using the one that angles to the left, doesn't seem to be a problem, but to be fair I thought it would be awkward.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline h1ro

  • Posts: 10
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #279 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 14:38:12 »
@hairball

So the spacebar has a very subtle curve to it. It feels like it falls very naturally under the thumb. I think this is, in part, due to the large size. I'm used to keyboard spacebars with a relatively short depth, as it were, but with this one being so large, it feels like it sits under the entire length of the top joint of my thumb. It's very comfortable.

As for switches, it reminds me of my old AEKII from back in the day. The Cherry switch with which I am most familiar is the red. I was slightly concerned about the actuation weight on the Matias, but so far (in my vast 2 hours of experience with the switch) this doesn't seem to be an issue. The 'thunk' of the switch seems must lower in tone than the reds and having the same dampening on both the up and down strokes leads to a consistent feel.

@hoggy

How weird. I just checked and both of the cables I got angle to the left. I wonder what is the intended in box supply. Having one of each makes sense I guess, but both to the left is just odd. For me, it's not awkward just visually irritating having the cable go between the two panels.

Also, for those interested, I looked at the numlock key with Karabiner in debug mode and the key doesn't appear to send any signal at all down the wire so remapping looks highly unlikely.

I didn't think i'd be a fan of the wrist rests but they are surprisingly comfortable.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #280 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:35:47 »
Thanks to everyone who provided feedback below (and on Twitter and email)...

There's a very high probability that the Num Lock key will be changed to right Ctrl in the next production run.  Will update you again soon on this.

Glad you like the Spacebars.  :)  I drove our engineer a little nuts doing different variations, until we got it right.  Nice to hear that the effort was worth it.

Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.

Regarding the Micro-USB cables, they all veer to the left, so that users plugging them into laptops can position them directly in front, without interference from a perpendicular cable end.  We provide 2 lengths, so that desktop and laptop users aren't left with a cable that's too long or too short.

If you got one that veers to the right, then it was done by mistake at the factory. It may be a collectors' item.  :)

BTW, the shorter cable has an "upside-down-proof" plug on the computer side.  The logic being that you'll be plugging/unplugging frequently if you use a laptop, so we've eliminated any chance of you plugging it in upside-down.

Let me know if you have any other questions...





Offline h1ro

  • Posts: 10
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #281 on: Thu, 26 February 2015, 09:26:29 »
Excellent news about the numlock. Wish I could update the firmware on mine. If you're potentially reviewing the firmware, one other tweak that would be great: the undo/cut/copy/paste keys appear to send (on a mac) command_l down, c (for copy key), command_l up all at the same time. So it appears that physically releasing the key sends no scan codes. This means that I can't remap them in Karabiner. Whereas if the key send command_l down, c then on key release send the command_l, c up I could remap them with looking for simultaneous keypress scan codes and then for example use them as layer keys. It would be great to see that modification.

re: left angle cables

I'm so pleased there was a reason for this decision, I knew there must be as everything on the board is so well thought out. I didn't even think about the laptop use case.

One other random question, what was the thought process behind making the left panel control key the same size as the space bar?

Offline nobodysbusiness

  • Posts: 2
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #282 on: Thu, 26 February 2015, 09:38:20 »
Wish I could update the firmware on mine.

So is there no way to update the firmware on keyboards from the first production run? Nothing we can do to flash a different image?

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #283 on: Thu, 26 February 2015, 10:00:00 »
[...] the undo/cut/copy/paste keys appear to send (on a mac) command_l down, c (for copy key), command_l up all at the same time. So it appears that physically releasing the key sends no scan codes. This means that I can't remap them in Karabiner. [...]
I believe the USB HID spec actually has scan codes for “cut”, “copy”, “paste”, and maybe “undo”, etc.

Does anyone know what effect these have, if any, on various operating systems (OS X, windows, linux)? I’m currently traveling so I don’t have a keyboard with modifiable firmware handy to test out right now.

Offline sbyrne

  • Posts: 7
  • Location: NY
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #284 on: Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:30:21 »
On the first run, is there a function key combo to get right-control?

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #285 on: Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:44:49 »
Wish I could update the firmware on mine.

So is there no way to update the firmware on keyboards from the first production run? Nothing we can do to flash a different image?

No, it's not quite that simple.

For anyone who is not happy with the position of the Num Lock, please email help@matias.ca and we'll arrange an exchange for a 2nd production run model, with a right Ctrl key.



If you're potentially reviewing the firmware, one other tweak that would be great: the undo/cut/copy/paste keys appear to send (on a mac) command_l down, c (for copy key), command_l up all at the same time. So it appears that physically releasing the key sends no scan codes. This means that I can't remap them in Karabiner. Whereas if the key send command_l down, c then on key release send the command_l, c up I could remap them with looking for simultaneous keypress scan codes and then for example use them as layer keys. It would be great to see that modification.

Okay, I'll check.  I'm not sure how much this would complicate the current code base, but I'll find out.



re: left angle cables

I'm so pleased there was a reason for this decision, I knew there must be as everything on the board is so well thought out. I didn't even think about the laptop use case.

Yes, quite a lot of people using laptops these days.  An ergonomic keyboard + laptop stand fixes most of the health problems associated with using them.



One other random question, what was the thought process behind making the left panel control key the same size as the space bar?

We wanted PC users to have a bigger target for doing keyboard shortcuts...

With a Ctrl key that big and convex in shape, you can just sort-of make a fist and use the knuckles of your fingers to hold down Ctrl.  This is more comfortable and quicker than using your little finger to hold down Ctrl -- because your hand can stay in home postion and there's no unnatural stretching required.



I believe the USB HID spec actually has scan codes for cut, copy, paste, and maybe undo, etc.

Does anyone know what effect these have, if any, on various operating systems (OS X, windows, linux)? I'm currently traveling so I don't have a keyboard with modifiable firmware handy to test out right now.

Yes, there are HID usage codes for those...

   0x7A      Keyboard Undo
   0x7B      Keyboard Cut
   0x7C      Keyboard Copy
   0x7D      Keyboard Paste

It's been a while since I last looked into this, but last I checked Mac OS ignores those codes and I believe Windows does also.  Not sure about Linux.

In fact, Windows STILL doesn't recognize the code for the Equals key on the number pad.  I told them about this back when they were doing Longhorn -- this from the company that's supposed to prioritize business users.  Boggles the mind.


Offline mashby

  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 2828
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • What Up Shoney? (ツ)_/¯
    • Mashby

Offline Gerk

  • Posts: 448
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #287 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 08:40:27 »
Been playing with my Ergo Pro for the last 24 hours or so and have to say that so far I'm very happy with it.  A couple of small things I wish were different, but for the most part it's by far the nicest split/tented keyboard I've tried to date.  I do find in particular the placement of the esc key to be a bit odd ... I would much rather have it in a standard position above the tilde key ... and for the 6 being on the right side of the split, which I thought would be a big issue for me, is not so bad.  In one day I'm getting very used to it being there so I think I'll be able to get over that one.

Great job Matias, it was worth the wait.  I'll probably pony up for another one from the next run :)
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline h1ro

  • Posts: 10
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #288 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 16:34:55 »
Quote
For anyone who is not happy with the position of the Num Lock, please email help@matias.ca and we'll arrange an exchange for a 2nd production run model, with a right Ctrl key.

So great to see you going above and beyond to make customers happy

Quote
Okay, I'll check.  I'm not sure how much this would complicate the current code base, but I'll find out.

Excellent!

Quote
With a Ctrl key that big and convex in shape, you can just sort-of make a fist and use the knuckles of your fingers to hold down Ctrl.  This is more comfortable and quicker than using your little finger to hold down Ctrl -- because your hand can stay in home postion and there's no unnatural stretching required.

I love hearing the thinking behind such decisions!

Thanks!

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #289 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:22:00 »


Nice write up on Marco.org on the The Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard[url]. Good photos too.

Congrats on the very positive review as well -- this is going to give you a lot of great exposure. Nicely done!



Thanks!  We're pretty happy for the exposure and his final conclusion -- declaring it the best overall keyboard.

Obviously, as a long-time Microsoft ergo user, he's more accustomed to fixed-split keyboards with shorter separation distances/angles.  In time, he might find that increased separation/angle (that the Ergo Pro allows) is more comfortable, but you can't experience that on a fixed-split keyboard, so you may never know.

Calling the Kinesis "frustratingly flimsy" was maybe a little harsh.  I think the Kinesis is pretty good for the price -- giving you separation for under $100.  Sure, the price goes up quick as you start adding accessories -- which I know some customers see as a money grab -- but the basic unit is pretty cheap for the adjustability it offers.

Ultimately, you get what you pay for.  I think the Ergo Pro is a good value at $200.


« Last Edit: Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:42:30 by Matias »

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #290 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:30:21 »

Been playing with my Ergo Pro for the last 24 hours or so and have to say that so far I'm very happy with it.  A couple of small things I wish were different, but for the most part it's by far the nicest split/tented keyboard I've tried to date.  I do find in particular the placement of the esc key to be a bit odd ... I would much rather have it in a standard position above the tilde key ... and for the 6 being on the right side of the split, which I thought would be a big issue for me, is not so bad.  In one day I'm getting very used to it being there so I think I'll be able to get over that one.

Great job Matias, it was worth the wait.  I'll probably pony up for another one from the next run :)



That's great to hear -- very glad you're happy with it!   :)

The position & size of the Esc key (and the dead space between Caps Lock and A) are to accommodate the change in relative key positions that happens with greater separation distances / angles.  As your opening angle increases, you'll find that the old positions are awkward to reach.  This is also why the Tab and Tilde keys are wider -- we did a lot of user testing on this.



Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #291 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:38:12 »
Quote
For anyone who is not happy with the position of the Num Lock, please email help@matias.ca and we'll arrange an exchange for a 2nd production run model, with a right Ctrl key.

So great to see you going above and beyond to make customers happy


Well, it was pretty clear that this was going to be an issue for a lot of people -- so, better to fix it now, than to have it weigh down the good-ness of the product.




Quote
With a Ctrl key that big and convex in shape, you can just sort-of make a fist and use the knuckles of your fingers to hold down Ctrl.  This is more comfortable and quicker than using your little finger to hold down Ctrl -- because your hand can stay in home postion and there's no unnatural stretching required.

I love hearing the thinking behind such decisions!


Hopefully that usage method catches on.  It works really well.



Offline sbyrne

  • Posts: 7
  • Location: NY
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #292 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 19:40:21 »
I like the numlock next to the N. It makes switching to numpad mode really easy. It would be nice if there was some tactile bump on the i(5) key for positioning when in numpad mode. I hope that when I get around to buying another one of these for home that some of the first run keyboards are available or there is a dipswitch for ctrl/numlock.

The only other thing I could possibly want is an integrated mouse: trackpoint to the left of the H, mouse buttons under the space bars, and a scroll wheel to the right of the G. That would be heaven.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #293 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 22:46:30 »
I like the numlock next to the N. It makes switching to numpad mode really easy.

I think that is the problem. It is easy to hit by accident too. With a control there, if you hit by accident nothing bad will happen, but with the NumLock you will enter an different mode. A second control makes more sense; without it you cannot do ctrl-a, ctrl-q, or ctrl-w properly (doing it one handed puts a big strain on your left hand).
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline marcgravell

  • Posts: 1
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #294 on: Sat, 28 February 2015, 03:50:58 »
Another fun thing with the lack of a right-ctrl: I use a trackball with my left hand; with no r-ctrl, I can no longer conveniently ctrl-click links :) I'm really glad Matias are doing something about it in the 2nd run. Kinda trying to "get by" with it though; it seems kinda sucky for me to send back a USD200 keyboard because of one key! Although I have physically removed the num-lock keycap, 'cos *damn*.

I'll probably OS-remap caps-lock to r-ctrl for VM purposes, but that still doesn't help with mouse work :(


Offline sbyrne

  • Posts: 7
  • Location: NY
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #295 on: Sat, 28 February 2015, 06:53:43 »
I figured I would remap fn-alt to right control for the VM host key.

Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #296 on: Sun, 01 March 2015, 10:07:33 »
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.

Let me know if you have any other questions...

Do you think it's possible we'll see the 60% on MD before the end of the year?

Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #297 on: Sun, 01 March 2015, 13:24:03 »
I'm not keen on the number lock position, but I can't see myself getting used to the key being Ctrl.

Does anyone know of any keylockers that would fit Matias switches?
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 517
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #298 on: Sun, 01 March 2015, 14:30:38 »
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.

Let me know if you have any other questions...

Do you think it's possible we'll see the 60% on MD before the end of the year?


Yes, quite possible.  We're going to start work on it soon.


Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #299 on: Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:02:48 »
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.

Let me know if you have any other questions...

Do you think it's possible we'll see the 60% on MD before the end of the year?


Yes, quite possible.  We're going to start work on it soon.

There are way too many 60% keyboards, please make it 65% ... With dedicated pg up, pg down, 2 alts, 2 controls, and arrow keys. The Leopold fc660 is in that small but sweet spot category, we need more like this!
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 March 2015, 21:41:17 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard