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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Slusho64 on Wed, 18 July 2018, 17:17:00
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I love the feel of BOX Royals. I filled a GMMK with them a couple of weeks ago. But since then I have switched out 5 because they have developed a clicky sound. I'm worried this is going to happen to all of them the more I type on them. I have opened switches to compare and couldn't find any difference, and I asked Mike and he said he had no idea why it would happen. I haven't seen anyone mention anything so I thought I'd make a post and see what people think and at least this is here so if someone does experience this, they'll find this post. I can't imagine why it would happen to me and not others. It's definitely something with the bottom housing (ie, the inner mechanism with the leaf spring) because I've traded parts between switches to troubleshoot it. I'm posting this on the subreddit and geekhack to maximize visibility.
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I have a 60% with just the alphas filled with BOX Royals, and about 25-35% of them click...not sure why but it is an odd thing.
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I don't want to be this guy but after trying all Kailh BOXes and being somewhat disappointed with design choices of Novelkeys I'm waiting with putting clicky BOXes on my MX Blue board (the only one I recommend now is original Kailh BOX White, maybe Heavy Pale Blue if you like slightly heavier switches) and went with Zealios for tactile board. I suspect that not enough thought and testing went into these new designs except orders like "make it more tactile" "make it thicker" "make it heavier". On the other hand Zeal uses proven designs without taking them to the extremes. It's funny, this seems like a simple thing to do, many tries but noone can take the crown away from Zeal.
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There are two discussions on Reddit about this as well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8tq5lq/box_royal_clicking/?st=jjklsplb&sh=baddbf91 (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8tq5lq/box_royal_clicking/?st=jjklsplb&sh=baddbf91)
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8yl8cu/science_mod_box_royals_are_a_clicky_switch_dry/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8yl8cu/science_mod_box_royals_are_a_clicky_switch_dry/)
It seems like the switch needs to be relubed on a regular basis. This sucks since this switch is totally unlike any other switch except Holy Pandas and BKE, both of which are very expensive (and Topre of course comes with plenty of limitations).
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Doesn't this defeat the purpose of a box switch?
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Can you post a video with a sound comparison?
Sent Using Taptalk
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Can you post a video with a sound comparison?
Here you go: https://streamable.com/tvyl2 (https://streamable.com/tvyl2)
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Can you post a video with a sound comparison?
Here you go: https://streamable.com/tvyl2 (https://streamable.com/tvyl2)
Yeah, that is quite a transition. Certainly something that should be addressed if it happens to so many of them under normal use.
I hope my Jades don't become only tactile, LOL.
Sent Using Taptalk
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Interesting. None of mine have this issue... yet xD
I am really digging how the switch feels. As long as the ticking sound doesn't effect key feel, I don't really care, personally. I am curious as to what exactly is making the noise, tho...
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I am curious as to what exactly is making the noise, tho...
It's the groove in the slider against the little brown nub in the housing once the lube rubs away. I'm going to try adding lube and see if it takes longer to wear away.
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Well, I have a lube that I have accidentally silenced clicky switches with. 3-in-one. PTFE.
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You should put it on some that you type on a lot and report back in a month or whenever they become clicky. I'm going to try tribosys.
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Lol I noticed this too when modding my box royals with slightly stiffer springs, so I purposely made them all semi-clicky by rubbing off the factory lube on the nub. I actually like the sound better than stock, it's sharper. They're not as loud as clicky switches. I call them 'crispy black royals', since I used black springs. I like it.
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Just to clarify on this, I am talking to Kailh on this. This is also not a Royal specific behavior, as I have found out the BOX Browns/Burnt Orange can exhibit similar issue.
I love the feel of BOX Royals. I filled a GMMK with them a couple of weeks ago. But since then I have switched out 5 because they have developed a clicky sound. I'm worried this is going to happen to all of them the more I type on them. I have opened switches to compare and couldn't find any difference, and I asked Mike and he said he had no idea why it would happen. I haven't seen anyone mention anything so I thought I'd make a post and see what people think and at least this is here so if someone does experience this, they'll find this post. I can't imagine why it would happen to me and not others. It's definitely something with the bottom housing (ie, the inner mechanism with the leaf spring) because I've traded parts between switches to troubleshoot it. I'm posting this on the subreddit and geekhack to maximize visibility.
I do believe this is an issue with lube, but I am not 100% sure on that. I am going to be talking to Kailh to see what is going on, and if there is anything we can do to change it.
I don't want to be this guy but after trying all Kailh BOXes and being somewhat disappointed with design choices of Novelkeys I'm waiting with putting clicky BOXes on my MX Blue board (the only one I recommend now is original Kailh BOX White, maybe Heavy Pale Blue if you like slightly heavier switches) and went with Zealios for tactile board. I suspect that not enough thought and testing went into these new designs except orders like "make it more tactile" "make it thicker" "make it heavier". On the other hand Zeal uses proven designs without taking them to the extremes. It's funny, this seems like a simple thing to do, many tries but noone can take the crown away from Zeal.
So I feel the need to defend myself on this. I am not trying to make a Zealio clone. I am very upfront with everyone about my design choices. They are not as simple as "make it more tactile" and "make it heavier". Although, thick clicks were a result of me wanting the clickbar thicker. But it is way more then just making orders such as you stated. Zeal has done a tremendous job with Zealios, and deserves a lot of credit for getting quality switches to the market. He works hard at making sure that he continues to revise and improve on his switches. I, again, am not trying to "take the crown" from Zeal. I want to bring different things to the market. Things that havent been done before. For Royals, I was very transparent saying that this was not a clone of Zealios, and I even stated that they would not be for everyone.
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Wouldn't this mean the clickbar is too thick already, if it's exhausting the lube so early on.
If we increase the tension w/ a thicker bar, this transition would only happen quicker.
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Wouldn't this mean the clickbar is too thick already, if it's exhausting the lube so early on.
If we increase the tension w/ a thicker bar, this transition would only happen quicker.
Royals aren't click bar switches Oo . Also, the click bar isn't lubed.
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Just to clarify on this, I am talking to Kailh on this. This is also not a Royal specific behavior, as I have found out the BOX Browns/Burnt Orange can exhibit similar issue.
I love the feel of BOX Royals. I filled a GMMK with them a couple of weeks ago. But since then I have switched out 5 because they have developed a clicky sound. I'm worried this is going to happen to all of them the more I type on them. I have opened switches to compare and couldn't find any difference, and I asked Mike and he said he had no idea why it would happen. I haven't seen anyone mention anything so I thought I'd make a post and see what people think and at least this is here so if someone does experience this, they'll find this post. I can't imagine why it would happen to me and not others. It's definitely something with the bottom housing (ie, the inner mechanism with the leaf spring) because I've traded parts between switches to troubleshoot it. I'm posting this on the subreddit and geekhack to maximize visibility.
I do believe this is an issue with lube, but I am not 100% sure on that. I am going to be talking to Kailh to see what is going on, and if there is anything we can do to change it.
I don't want to be this guy but after trying all Kailh BOXes and being somewhat disappointed with design choices of Novelkeys I'm waiting with putting clicky BOXes on my MX Blue board (the only one I recommend now is original Kailh BOX White, maybe Heavy Pale Blue if you like slightly heavier switches) and went with Zealios for tactile board. I suspect that not enough thought and testing went into these new designs except orders like "make it more tactile" "make it thicker" "make it heavier". On the other hand Zeal uses proven designs without taking them to the extremes. It's funny, this seems like a simple thing to do, many tries but noone can take the crown away from Zeal.
So I feel the need to defend myself on this. I am not trying to make a Zealio clone. I am very upfront with everyone about my design choices. They are not as simple as "make it more tactile" and "make it heavier". Although, thick clicks were a result of me wanting the clickbar thicker. But it is way more then just making orders such as you stated. Zeal has done a tremendous job with Zealios, and deserves a lot of credit for getting quality switches to the market. He works hard at making sure that he continues to revise and improve on his switches. I, again, am not trying to "take the crown" from Zeal. I want to bring different things to the market. Things that havent been done before. For Royals, I was very transparent saying that this was not a clone of Zealios, and I even stated that they would not be for everyone.
I just want to point out, no one has the same taste. I absolutely love the direction you went with your switches. The switches I am most disappointed in were the white's and pale blues, so I 100% disagree with the guy attacking the design choices of the newer switches, like Jades, Navys, and Royals.
You can't make everyone happy, so don't take it personally. :)
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I only have a 10-switch sample of BOX Royals, so I haven't noticed the clicking yet, but it's an interesting and unexpected phenomenon! Could actually be a plus for someone to have the unlubed version of BOX Royals for the more subtle click vs. the loud click of the BOX switches with clickbar. I wonder if spring weight affects the clicky behavior. There are so many possible combinations to play with--I was swapping stems and springs and clickbars into different BOX switches for a while yesterday, and the results were all different in subtle or not so subtle ways.
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Just to clarify on this, I am talking to Kailh on this. This is also not a Royal specific behavior, as I have found out the BOX Browns/Burnt Orange can exhibit similar issue.
I do believe this is an issue with lube, but I am not 100% sure on that. I am going to be talking to Kailh to see what is going on, and if there is anything we can do to change it.
I'm glad you saw this post because I was going to send you links to this and the Reddit threads to make sure you were aware of the issue.
I am not trying to make a Zealio clone.
I think it's immediately obvious that these are totally different switch than Zealios. To me Zealios are a Cherry-style tactile with a bump along a linear length, whereas Royals are a snap from the very top to the very bottom.
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This problem also happend* with my Burnt orange switches why it happens i have no clue. Only reason i changed back to normal MX switches.
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I think it's immediately obvious that these are totally different switch than Zealios. To me Zealios are a Cherry-style tactile with a bump along a linear length, whereas Royals are a snap from the very top to the very bottom.
These switches feel nothing like other cherry mx based switches. They feel more like an extreme rubber dome or alps, but with more springiness after the tactile event. Most cherry mx based switches feel like linears with a bump overlapped, and some people like that, but these are different.
The closest switch that feels anything like these are clears, due to the remaining springiness after actuation, but the tactility is FAR stronger.
They remind me most of rubber domes with extreme tactility, like BTC dome with slider.
I personally don't mind the eventual ticking the switches will probably develop. The only other switch I have that shares this problem are my matias tactile grey switches, and coincidentally, the two switches feel similarly as well. Better in fact, because matias switches have a second tactile bump which bothers me.
Edit: I stuck my ear to my board and my A and S key are starting to click.
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I hope that they fix this issue. It was nice knowing that we had a good tactile non-clicky MX compatible switch with actually decent tactility. I'm sure they'll find some way around it.
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I've experimented with a few things so I wanted to share what I've found. I tried a few different lubes. Tribosys 3204 doesn't work (it goes back to clicking very quickly). Traxxas 10k (differential oil) works well for about 2 weeks and then becomes clicky again (for the amount I type at least).
I also got a Hako True and after putting it in a Royal housing with no lube that was clicking, I can confirm that Hako Royals don't seem to click. The clicking seems to be caused by the sharpness of the bump on the Royal stem and is alleviated by lube, but only temporarily. So I'm probably going to replace my Royals with Hako Royal Trues when they become available again.
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I think i have the same problem
I have kailh box burnt oranges, but it should be the same thing
and also have you found a solution
THanks
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My Kailh Box Browns also died the same way. I mean, they function as a switch so they didn't break per se, but they became kind of wobbly and clicky on the upstroke, in any case nothing that they were when fresh. The effect is more pronounced on the most used keys.
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Maybe me and the Royals are connected on a deeper level - we both want clicky! 8)
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Maybe me and the Royals are connected on a deeper level - we both want clicky! 8)
Agreed. I absolutely adore the clicky sound of the switches after some use. Don't like sound of brand new Royals too much, but they become glorious with time. Generally I don't like clicky switches because most are really high pitched and hurts my ears after a session of typing, but the ckickyness of the Royals is metallic, subdued and barely noticeable, just enough to really complement the sound of bottoming out and not make it sound like you're hammering the switches down.
Another thing I've noticed with switches that have turned clicky is that the tactile bump becomes slightly more rounded and less sharp compared to brand new ones, another thing I like a lot. These switches only become better over time, maybe that's just me getting used to the tactility, but after a couple days of using them I can safely say I love these switches and wouldn't have gotten anything else from the current repertoire of MX compatible switches.
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Yeah, seems to be a normal thing with the box switches. I have almost a fully clicky board of Hako Trues. Not stoked about it.
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I did some testing w/ mine, which started to have this problem. I removed the factory lube w/ isopropyl alcohol on some of my unused loose switches and they clicked quite a bit. Sounds somewhat similar to the old greased MX whites.
I would imagine that since no one has really reported an issue like this before w/ a tactile MX-esc switch, it must be due to what makes Royals unique - the stiffer contact leaf. But I cannot confirm this.
Fun little mod to do is to isopropyl clean the Royal stems & leaves to bring out the subtle click, dry lube them to gain back a little bit smoothness w/o dampening click, and then grease below contact point & above the notch on the stem to dampen the noise of bottom-out & upstroke. Gives a really cool and unique sounding switch (It clicks & thocks!) w/ a very tactile feel, although it is inherently hard to make consistent.
Otherwise, simply re-applying wet lube again to the leaf & stem should fix the clicking for the most part.
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Fun little mod to do is to isopropyl clean the Royal stems & leaves to bring out the subtle click, dry lube them to gain back a little bit smoothness w/o dampening click, and then grease below contact point & above the notch on the stem to dampen the noise of bottom-out & upstroke. Gives a really cool and unique sounding switch (It clicks & thocks!) w/ a very tactile feel, although it is inherently hard to make consistent.
Otherwise, simply re-applying wet lube again to the leaf & stem should fix the clicking for the most part.
You might do that once or twice, switch lubing in general is NOT a fun activity..
It's too inconvenient to make (unclicky), from here on, we have to consider it a Clicky..
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^^^ I agree. Unless we consider factory lube part of the mechanics of a switch, Box Royals are technically, a clicky switch. The factory wet-lube hides this fact until the switch has been thoroughly used.