Katana60 v2 (aka Katana60 rev2) is available online (https://candykeys.com/product/katana60-pcb-V2) - Post here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100468.msg2959430#msg2959430).
Link to the previous most recent update post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100468.msg2888776#msg2888776), with the most up-to-date layout for the Tsuka60 PCB and other information about the project progress.
Link to a previous update post (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100468.msg2817172#msg2817172).
Original Post:
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Symmetrical staggered layouts are among early attempts at more ergonomic layouts for typists. The Katana60 brought these layouts to a new and engaged mechanical keyboard community. I’ve explored the layout further and identified improvements that both simplify the transition from traditional layouts and allow further customisation and engagement with contemporary community trends (read: keycaps and cases). Introducing Katana60 v2.
(https://i.imgur.com/D7necXe.jpg)
PCB Supported Layouts
(https://i.imgur.com/37AqPtm.png)
The Katana60 fits in standard 60% cases, so you can choose from a wide variety of pre-existing cases. The added support of standard bottom rows (new in v2) adds further flexibility to your custom keyboard. For example, the addition of the popular 7u space bar bottom row allows the buyer to try 60% WKL cases or HHKB style cases with 1.5u blockers.
v2 Universal layout example (default)
(https://i.imgur.com/clOius9.png)
The default layout adds the benefits of a symmetrical stagger to a traditional legacy keyboard layout, and little more. The layout is 100% row-profile correct and key positioning follows the common qwerty positioning. Unlike other variants, international keycap sets are supported with this layout.
Non-standard keycaps required
2x row 4 - 1.5u
1x row 3 - 1.75u (extra)
The required caps can be found in GMK group buys or other premium keycap sets.
Here it is shown with the standard bottom row. An alternative asymmetrical bottom row is also supported, with additional thumb keys.
v2 Symmetrical layout example
(https://i.imgur.com/dOu0R1B.png)
This layout is also 100% row-profile correct. Key positions have been relocated for the symmetric aesthetic. The optional 2u backspace key is shown here, alongside a split, symmetric space bar arrangement. The alternative bottom row with a 7u space bar is shown, this allows support for HHKB style cases with 1.5u blockers.
Katana60 v1 'Classic'
(https://i.imgur.com/kmKof24.png)
The default layout of the original Katana60 has its benefits. Although it didn't support any 100% correct row profile layouts, it could be covered using a stand ANSI keycap set and nothing more.
Support for the v1 layout can be built in to the v2 PCB, but there are some caveats to this approach, so I'd like to guage interest in the Classic layout before devoting time to adding it to the v2. Firstly, and importantly, implementation of the Classic bottom row would require us to drop support for the 6.25u bottom row option (since the stabilisers will overlap). Another caveat is the offset of the alphas between the two layouts. Implementing this is possible, but it adds complexity (and therefore time) to the process.
I have prepared an interest check form to measure the interest in the options before developing the PCB. Here's a link (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1HHFQxaeDMbcW_I3QEX0tqHBudNrniXzvg0_pnYiUYLY/edit), please fill it out and leave any comments or suggestions in the thread below.
Thank you for your interest and your time.
RominRonin
Then you'll like the following album:
https://imgur.com/a/Re9v99E
by the way i do very much like the symmetrical bottom row with original katana layout more than the classic bottom row.
It looks nicer and is much easier to fill with proper key profile
I think i did vote for the classic bottom row, but i don't think this particular option was available when voting
The final bottom rows are still a work in progress, currently it looks like this for the Katana60 revision 2:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/jeimlHm.png)
and for the Tsuka:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/8llViVY.png)
I'll post something more in-depth in the next day or two, with some photos. Please keep in mind that these images are intended to show my current intentions with the bottom row, and do not depict the final layouts supported by either PCB.
Hi i am probably late to the party. Since i recently started to use my Katana60 more like a 40% i probably won't be able to provide that much valuable input anyway. What bothers me a bit about the new symmetrical bottom rows for the classic layout is the reduction in keys accessible by thumbs. It would be really nice if it could support the symmetric 1 + 4 * 1.25 + 1.5 + mirror bottom row you suggested originally or some variation of it.
[attach=1]
Finally it's time for an update. I've been mega busy this year (getting married, building a house, extremely demanding project at work, recording and producing an album etc) so I have had very little time to devote to the Katana series.
But first... Servus @rumlyne! I bin a a Wiena ;)
Have no fear, Katana60 (classic) is here
I have not been idle during this time. I've been in communication with David @candykeys - he wants to get a second round of Katana60 PCBs in stock as soon as possible - I have developed a Katana60 rev 2 PCB, that was the quickest route to getting a version of the Katana layout in stock. It has the same layout support as the original run (so it matches the beautiful plates he already has in stock from the first run) with the added addition of a 7u bottom row option (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b59ba1efedd66bf23724fa0d2c73f618) (not compatible with the plate).
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/bvcKLH5.png)
An order will be placed very soon. I'll probably post something here about that. David has been building connections with overseas sellers so some of the non-EU buyers will have some alternative stores to choose from, thank you David.
What about the new layouts discussed here?
Firstly, I want to focus on what is currently known as the Tsuka60 layout. The Katana60 supports a wide variety of sets, cases and bottom rows, but all those bottom rows complicate it. I want to be free of those constraints and focus on aesthetics in two main ways:
- Symmetrical bottom rows
- 100% correct row profile
The first is easily achieved by dropping support for the many esoteric complete keysets that was one goal of the original. We'll pick a handful of bottom rows that are symmetrical and do not interfere with one another.
As for the second point, unfortunately Katana60 is not popular enough on it's own to influence IC and GB planners to include the required keycaps in their '40s + ortho' addon kits. Until such a time that it is, I want to focus my next PCB on something that can have 100% correct row profile without hunting around for crazy rare keycaps (r3 1.25u, I'm looking at you).
This means that I will continue working on the Tsuka variants (the bottom rows I posted recently still apply), but I will not work on any classic Katana60 based layouts in new boards until further notice.
I expect prototyping of the Tsuka to be complete by the end of this month (October) once that's done I'll run a GB for the PCBs. I prefer plateless builds these days, they produce lighter boards and I don't have to commit to one specific bottom row. I can make plate files available for those who wish to get their own cut.
These are great news! I've been waiting for a rev 2 for a while and this would be a treat to try out. Do you have a ballpark pricing for this? Also what USB connector will the PCB use?
I hope this project is still alive and happening. If you take suggestions, I’d like to offer this for a bottom layout.
[attachimg=1]
I think it has some merits:
- Placing the extra key to the left of the right Shift, allows for a standard arrow cluster, as well as an extra key accessible with the right pinky. The thumb Shift should make up for the less convenient right Shift.
- The 1.5u sized thumb bars (inverted tab/backslash keys) for Space/Backspace, should be OK. The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard only has slightly larger thumb bars (1.75u) and I haven’t read any complaints about their size in reviews.
- Dual and easily accessible ‘Fn’ keys. Under macOS one would be for the keyboard (wouldn’t send a keycode), the other would send ‘Fn’ (e.g. pressing both Fn keys + 3 would send “mission_control”).
- No stabilisers (yay!)
- No hard to find keycaps (sets with 7u spacebars should cover this)
Finally, I think that slapping a 7u spacebar into a well thought-out and ergonomically focused layout, is equivalent to this:
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[attachimg=2 align=left width=500]
You definitely can't please them all, thankfully I don't have to.
While I don't expect Katana60, Tsuka60 or similar layouts to be more than a niche interest within a niche interest, there are some die-hards of this symmetrical stagger layouts. That is who the Katana60 and Tsuka60 are for. I don't imagine we'll ever enjoy the popularity of the Planck or the Let's Split for example, but popularity is genuinely not what motivates me to continue with these boards.
I agree that you can’t please them all and you probably shouldn’t even try, but that doesn’t mean that this layout should remain a niche of a niche. It deserves to be much more popular; certainly more popular than those cramped, non-split, ortholinear keyboards, that force both of your hands to twist unnaturally (instead of just the left) and that many people have convinced themselves that are ergonomic.
However, even a gmk base set has enough keycaps to cover the 7u bottom row variant
Not all GMK base sets include 6 x 1.5u bottom row keys and I wouldn’t say that GMK sets are either easy to find or inexpensive. Take for instance CandyKeys (the Katana60 vendor). All but one of the GMK sets there, are either sold-out or on pre-order and that single ISO-DE set that is available, doesn’t include the required keys. Out of all of their available sets, only one (the single-profile MDA Pineapple) can cover some of your initial layouts. I also had a look over at KBDfans, but the options there, were equally very limited.
Just to make it clear, although single set support was not a priority in the design of the Tsuka60, that does not mean the Tsuka60 requires extra kits to fill your board. I own an early GMK Dolch set, which you'll notice (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0490/7329/products/Dolch_Base.JPG?v=1417083743) has poor general compatibility. Even so, this set supports 3 out of the 6 alternative bottom rows, two of them with the correct row profiles
Looking at the Dolch set you linked, I don’t see how you can do that. Your default layout needs 6 x 1.5u bottom row keys (this only has 4), the other alternative layouts (apart from that latest one) need either 2 x 2u, 2 x 2.75u or 2 x 3u bottom row keys and this set only has one or none of these.
Take a look at the supported bottom rows (that last one is new, at the request of the colemak forum users)… and is arguably the MOST ergonomic design.
Yes, this will be easy to cover, but I wouldn’t call it the most ergonomic design based on the number of keys. The modifier keys should be larger, since they are at the edges and usually operated by the thumbs, and the main thumb keys at 1.25u, are probably too small to be pressed effortlessly.
I also think that it would be a good idea to offer the option for a 1u key+0.5u gap in the center (that katana kanji on the PCB didn’t look half bad) so you can use a proper ‘H’ key there. Otherwise, and combined with the suggested bottom row layouts, you’re strongly encouraging (bordering on forcing) the wide mod (https://colemakmods.github.io/ergonomic-mods/wide.html) and not everyone might be fan of that.
For example, something like this, has:
[attach=1]
- Symmetric modifiers
- Easy to find keys with correct profiles and mostly correct legends (most extended sets with 7u spacebars would cover this)
- 1.75u thumb bar on the left (most extended sets include a 1.75u Shift)
- 2.75u thumb bar on the right, which works equally well with or without a wide mod
- Option for an inverted-T arrow cluster on the right
- Easily thumb-accessible Fn key
- Only one bottom-row layout that covers most bases (offering too many options often leads to choice paralysis, especially for newcomers)
I really can’t see any practical or ergonomic drawbacks with something like this, apart from the fact that it doesn’t uphold that fleeting ideal of perfect symmetry. But since the name you chose comes from Japan, it does uphold the Japanese aesthetics view of Wabi-Sabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi), i.e. the acceptance of imperfection and finding beauty in asymmetry. :)
I know that we both have strong opinions on this and I’m not going to convince you. I’m just thinking out loud and although I might sound like I'm trying to rain on your parade, I promise that I'm on your side.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/jrkAwa7.jpg)
What a stunning shot! I love it!
RominRonin, it looks like you have spent lots oftime with a different layouts. I highly inspired with katana60 keyboard. Inspite of the fact I prefer to have an F keys.
I try to do same but with a russian, that cause some more difficulties by the reason of more letters.
Don't you ever think about russian layout?
I took a look at the Russian layout after reading your posts, it's quite complicated!
Honestly, I think the Katana60 is better suited for the Russian layout - you could make use of all those extra keys in the middle of the keyboard for the extra characters.
(Attachment Link)
Hah!
I received the switch plate from laserboost.com today, I have to solder the latest prototype up, but here is what it will look like when it's done:
(https://i.imgur.com/lyb0meh.jpg)
I have to say I am really loving this bottom row, the thumb keys (inner option keys) are in exactly the right place, so you only need a short extension or contraction of the thumb to hit the neighbouring keys. Very nice.
Once I solder the PCB, re-test it and update the firmware, the board will basically be ready. Unless...
Would it be possible to add breakout support for gonnoc's trackpoint module? I feel like this would be nearly the perfect use case on the bottom row. https://github.com/sekigon-gonnoc/LevelConverterForTrackballModule
Show Image
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sekigon-gonnoc/LevelConverterForTrackballModule/master/doc/img/main.png)
AFAIK it doesn't require modifications further than the breakout support as the sensor (PAW3204) can rest in a single switch slot, with the module sitting between plate and pcb. Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/veFal61.jpg)
Edit: Changelog for the choco60 to add https://github.com/shinoaliceKabocha/choco60_track/commit/4ea73b0fdc7a779b506713fedb874a8f848d6bef#diff-ef8462a2fd19505be9b755c3d953a2bc , from what I can tell it didn't require any physical modifications, but I could be wrong
Cheers!
I hadn't heard of the trackpoint module, and the few websites I've found are not in English. It looks very interesting, can you please provide more information Tennstrong? Where can I buy one? Does it just fit in an MX sized hole in a switch plate? Does that potentially mean I can place a trackpoint anywhere I want (provided its wired into the controller through the pin breakouts)?
If it really is as simple as this, then I could add a quick update to the PCB before manufacturing, because quite a lot of people were interested in a trackpoint feature. But without more information, or some kind of support on integrating it, I'm hesitant to delay the Tsuka60 much further.
I hadn't heard of the trackpoint module, and the few websites I've found are not in English. It looks very interesting, can you please provide more information Tennstrong? Where can I buy one? Does it just fit in an MX sized hole in a switch plate? Does that potentially mean I can place a trackpoint anywhere I want (provided its wired into the controller through the pin breakouts)?
If it really is as simple as this, then I could add a quick update to the PCB before manufacturing, because quite a lot of people were interested in a trackpoint feature. But without more information, or some kind of support on integrating it, I'm hesitant to delay the Tsuka60 much further.
That'd be a treat!
Show Image
(https://media.giphy.com/media/aq6Thivv9V9lu/giphy.gif)
I'm strangely aroused by this gif