I bought the WASD sampler pack and tried out all three o-rings. The red ones are definitely the best and only ones I'd use. I have the full keyboard in red o-rings now and it feels and sounds amazing to type on.
I bought the WASD sampler pack and tried out all three o-rings. The red ones are definitely the best and only ones I'd use. I have the full keyboard in red o-rings now and it feels and sounds amazing to type on.
You got the blue o-rings? Can you give me some feedback on those? I was a bit bummed when I realized I didn't have them.
Those key caps don't properly support the o-rings and will never give you good/consistent results, you need some sort of structure for them to push against.
Those key caps don't properly support the o-rings and will never give you good/consistent results, you need some sort of structure for them to push against.
^ This, guys. O-rings on SP caps do not work very well or consistently. Cherry caps and the "OEM" style caps that come standard on so many boards (and from WASD) have a cross brace whose depth various across the key profiles. This makes the length of the stem on the cap consistent relative to the cross brace so that the o-rings provide the same reduction in travel across all rows. This is probably why you didn't notice the EK landing pads.
With SP keys, you have to stack o-rings or take other creative measures. Even that won't be perfect due to imperfections in the shape of the back of the key cap. SP's process can leave weird burrs in the areas where the two shots meet.
The blue o rings are the same as the thicker red/pink ones I gave you, I got the sampler kit before WASD officially made their own and switched colors to make it less confusing. It's the same size, different color.
With a reduction in travel set aside, is the feeling when bottoming out with Cherry stabilizers similar to having an o-ring/dampener under the switch? I know I can order a sampler kit from WASD but it's a bit expensive for me just to try out some o-rings (and international shipping practically doubles the price).. :-X
I bought the WASD sampler pack and tried out all three o-rings. The red ones are definitely the best and only ones I'd use. I have the full keyboard in red o-rings now and it feels and sounds amazing to type on.
You got the blue o-rings? Can you give me some feedback on those? I was a bit bummed when I realized I didn't have them.
From what I can remember, blues are just stiffer reds. However, the blues, just like the blacks, were too stiff for me and just ruined the flow of a key press. The reds are perfect and make the bottoming out feel softer and more silent.
You got the blue o-rings? Can you give me some feedback on those? I was a bit bummed when I realized I didn't have them.
Those key caps don't properly support the o-rings and will never give you good/consistent results, you need some sort of structure for them to push against.
^ This, guys. O-rings on SP caps do not work very well or consistently. Cherry caps and the "OEM" style caps that come standard on so many boards (and from WASD) have a cross brace whose depth various across the key profiles. This makes the length of the stem on the cap consistent relative to the cross brace so that the o-rings provide the same reduction in travel across all rows. This is probably why you didn't notice the EK landing pads.
With SP keys, you have to stack o-rings or take other creative measures. Even that won't be perfect due to imperfections in the shape of the back of the key cap. SP's process can leave weird burrs in the areas where the two shots meet.
CPTBadAss grumbles about how he spent a bit of time on this...
Fine...I'll add them to my Leopold and add some thoughts about them here.
^
You see the thicker pink ones that I gave you? Those are the exact same o-rings, size, softness, everything about them are identical to the blue ones that WASD offers atm except for the color. WASD recently changed them to blue to differentiate them from the thinner pink ones. So, just letting you know that you did in fact get the blue o-rings (referring to:)QuoteYou got the blue o-rings? Can you give me some feedback on those? I was a bit bummed when I realized I didn't have them.
Sorry CPTBadAss, it was a good review, just something was missed.CPTBadAss grumbles about how he spent a bit of time on this...
Fine...I'll add them to my Leopold and add some thoughts about them here.
I wasn't knocking your efforts. Just wanted to make sure that folks curious about o-rings knew this bit of unfortunate circumstance. I learned the hard way.
Leslieann, can you explain a little more about short throw switches and why you need o-rings?I call them Jailhouse Blues.
I see... thanks. :)With a reduction in travel set aside, is the feeling when bottoming out with Cherry stabilizers similar to having an o-ring/dampener under the switch? I know I can order a sampler kit from WASD but it's a bit expensive for me just to try out some o-rings (and international shipping practically doubles the price).. :-X
I don't think it's the same as Cherry stabilizers. The black o-rings feel like the actuation has a shorter travel distance and bottoms out the same. The red o-rings also reduce the travel distance but feel squishy or pillowy when you bottom out. They also muffle the sound way more. The Cherry stabilizers can feel a but mushy or bouncy sometimes but I don't think they anything like the o-rings. Like fohat.digs said, you could ask your orthodontist or someone who has braces to give you a pack of orthodontist rubberbands which might simulate them well enough for you to judge.
It was my experience that the dental rubber bands were smaller (thinner) and softer than any of the commercial O-rings.
People are looking for different effects, such as shorter travel. All I ever really wanted was a cushion at the final moment of bottoming-out.
I just ordered these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Black-Engraved-PBT-Cherry-MX-Key-Caps-104-keys-included-/330753334171?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4d026f5b9b
KBC PBTs should have the brace to properly support the red O-Rings, correct?
I just ordered these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Black-Engraved-PBT-Cherry-MX-Key-Caps-104-keys-included-/330753334171?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4d026f5b9b
KBC PBTs should have the brace to properly support the red O-Rings, correct?
I don't see why not. I have these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Blue-Dyesub-Thick-PBT-Cherry-MX-Key-Caps-105-keys-included-/330758846871?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4d02c37997) from KBC and I've got WASD's red o-rings on them.
The blank red WASD cluster are KBC thick PBT, these black-engraved ones are regular PBT, not thick PBT.
The black set is OEM profile, and the red WASD cluster is Cherry profile.
OEM profile = the profile which comes standard on most keyboards such as QFR, Ducky, Leopold, Filco, etc...
Cherry profile is a shorter than OEM, read about it more in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35285.0).
Thick PBT is thicker than standard and supposedly feels more "solid".
OEM profile = the profile which comes standard on most keyboards such as QFR, Ducky, Leopold, Filco, etc...
Cherry profile is a shorter than OEM, read about it more in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35285.0).
Thick PBT is thicker than standard and supposedly feels more "solid".
Hmm, then maybe I should wait until I can get a black with engraved in a thick version. However, if I get these and the WASD cluster as Cherry profile, will the feeling be off? I kind of like having the cluster a bit different but I don't want the keyboard to feel awkward.
OEM profile = the profile which comes standard on most keyboards such as QFR, Ducky, Leopold, Filco, etc...
Cherry profile is a shorter than OEM, read about it more in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35285.0).
Thick PBT is thicker than standard and supposedly feels more "solid".
Hmm, then maybe I should wait until I can get a black with engraved in a thick version. However, if I get these and the WASD cluster as Cherry profile, will the feeling be off? I kind of like having the cluster a bit different but I don't want the keyboard to feel awkward.
If you get the WASD keys in a different profile than the rest of your keys, then yes, it will be very awkward due to the height difference.
OEM profile = the profile which comes standard on most keyboards such as QFR, Ducky, Leopold, Filco, etc...
Cherry profile is a shorter than OEM, read about it more in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35285.0).
Thick PBT is thicker than standard and supposedly feels more "solid".
Hmm, then maybe I should wait until I can get a black with engraved in a thick version. However, if I get these and the WASD cluster as Cherry profile, will the feeling be off? I kind of like having the cluster a bit different but I don't want the keyboard to feel awkward.
If you get the WASD keys in a different profile than the rest of your keys, then yes, it will be very awkward due to the height difference.
Okay, thanks for your help. It seems that the thick keys are twice the price as well, so I think I will purchase these engraved ones and try to get just the WASD cluster as thick but OEM and not Cherry.
Unless of course you recommend Cherry profile over OEM?
OEM profile = the profile which comes standard on most keyboards such as QFR, Ducky, Leopold, Filco, etc...
Cherry profile is a shorter than OEM, read about it more in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35285.0).
Thick PBT is thicker than standard and supposedly feels more "solid".
Hmm, then maybe I should wait until I can get a black with engraved in a thick version. However, if I get these and the WASD cluster as Cherry profile, will the feeling be off? I kind of like having the cluster a bit different but I don't want the keyboard to feel awkward.
If you get the WASD keys in a different profile than the rest of your keys, then yes, it will be very awkward due to the height difference.
Okay, thanks for your help. It seems that the thick keys are twice the price as well, so I think I will purchase these engraved ones and try to get just the WASD cluster as thick but OEM and not Cherry.
Unless of course you recommend Cherry profile over OEM?
That's more of a preference, I believe. Many on this forum prefer Cherry profile due to it being the smaller profile. OEM, however, seems to be more abundant so it would be a safer choice in the long run in terms of compatibility with other future keycap sets.
I think the sets on that site are all OEM profile unless stated otherwise. That's pretty much the case on most sites I've seen entire sets up for sale.
EDIT: as is the case with those KBC Red Dyesub PBT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Red-Dyesub-Thick-PBT-WASD-Key-Set-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/330840341013?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item4d079efa15) keys. The Cherry profile is specifically mentioned.
Btw, OEM isn't always the same. My filco ninja OEM caps are a different profile from my Leopold caps.
Let us know how you like them!
Let us know how you like them!
Hey, are the keys on the TKL picture Cherry profile or OEM?
For someone that bottoms out blues all the time is it getting dampers or o rings? If so, what kind?
WASDkeyboards' thinner o-rings (40A-L) reduce travel less than dampeners.
I prefer dampeners. I find that o-rings limit the travel too much. I'm typing on blues right now and I bottom out most of the time. For o-rings, I recommend the red 40A ones from WASD. For dampeners, I'd get the black soft-landing pads from Elitekeyboards.com
I prefer dampeners. I find that o-rings limit the travel too much. I'm typing on blues right now and I bottom out most of the time. For o-rings, I recommend the red 40A ones from WASD. For dampeners, I'd get the black soft-landing pads from Elitekeyboards.com
For me it's not so much that they limit the travel, but all the o-rings I tried (I got a bunch with the WASD kit) ended up making the keys feel squishy. If they made a rock hard o-ring in that size, it would probably be fine, but the current ones tend to ruin the feel for me as someone who bottoms out frequently.
So what do you need rock-hard o-rings for? The only effect they would have would be: limit the key travel.
They would have minimal sound dampening and no shock absorption. My friend I think in your case you would be better off without any o-rings or dampeners.
It all depends on what you are looking for. I'm looking for maximum comfort, and 40A does it, without being squishy at all. Whoever finds o-rings squishy probably hasn't installed them properly. You need to seat them all the way on the keycap stem, and also press down on each keycap HARD when you place it on the switch.
awesome detailed review!
Just curious but how often are there group buys or people selling o-rings on here?
Posting to say thanks for being thorough and having so much info, also good info in a lot of the other posts in this thread...
I wish I had o-rings.
Nah.
Thank you. And thanks for taking the time to read my review ^__^
I'm new to the mechanical scene and wanted to get a better idea how the O rings will feel and found this interesting reference on a site:
Duro 20A = Rubber Band
Duro 40A = Pencil Eraser
Duro 60A = Car Tire Tread
Duro 70A* = Running Shoe Sole
Duro 80A = Leather Belt
Duro 100A = Shopping Cart Wheel
Edit: Better yet, here's a chart:
http://www.allsealsinc.com/durometer.gif (http://www.allsealsinc.com/durometer.gif)
Yeah I had to rewrite the review after realizing the caps mattered so much. Learned first hand that the cross-bars underneath matter a lot! What switches do you have on your Kinesis by the way Input Nirvana?
Do your Ducky caps have the same crossbarring as the caps in my review? The cross-bars will greatly affect how the o-rings feel. The space-bar probably doesn't have as much support underneath so it feels different.
I also didn't think the o-rings quieted my board that much. And I think that costars are louder than the cherry stabilizers.
I found that both of my Filcos' Costar stabilized spacebars are definitely louder than my Ducky Shine's Cherry stabilized spacebar. Tried multiple spacebars: ABS and aluminum. Cherry is more muted. No problems with grinding spacebars, only if placed incorrectly.
40A-L Red O-Rings
These still feel really nice. There’s now less cushion-y-ness but still feel squishy. The travel reduction really feels different now. These o-rings now really feel like they stop actuation sooner. It seems like they stop the travel right after the click. I still really like these.
These are the ones I ended up going with on my browns. I had to adjust at first, and was convinced that I did not like them. But now that I am used to them, I actually appreciate the slightly smaller travel of the keys. One thing to take into account when you just put them on , is that they still move a little and are not yet in the right position unless you hit the key few times.
I actually like them a lot better than I had anticipated, since they reduce a little of the noise, they shorten the travel, and they give a softer impact but without feeling "mushy". Some people warned me that o-rings would destroy the feel of a mechanical switch, but I kind of disagree. Or at least, it does not for me. I still get the same tactile feedback when pressin the key, and it all generally feels the same. The only real difference is the feel when bottoming out.
they honestly make me want to destroy my keyboard when they are on my blues.
Yup, I had landing pads on my Blues as well
No. I never thought of it since I didn't want to dampen the sound anymore. I also don't have o-rings anymore so the only experiment I could do is with soft landing pads.
One fine day I was surfing the free stuff thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34585.0) and Mr. Sifo was giving out some o-rings and dampeners. And I was lucky enough to score them! Thank you Sifo!! I thought I’d write a review on my thoughts of these bad boys now that I’ve finally gotten them.
The o-rings are from the WASDKeyboards sampler pack. I have the black rubber (50A-R), red rubber (40A-L), and pink rubber (40A-R) (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html). The pink thick rubber o-rings are the same as the blue o-rings from WASDKeyboards. The dampeners or soft-landing pads are the same ones found on EliteKeyboards (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,slpads). The black ones are soft and the grey ones are hard.
As pointed out in the comments, I initially used SP caps which don’t have the cross-bracing. I then installed my o-rings and dampeners into my Leopold FC700R with stock caps to retest them and give my new thoughts. However, I didn’t want to lose my first impressions just in case anyone was curious. Those thoughts will be bumped to the end.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
1) Old Article (#post_Old)
2) New Article (#post_New)
3) Videos (#post_VOD)
New Article (ToC) (#post_TOC)The newly sorted o-rings and dampeners from left to right: Red rubber 40A-L, pink rubber 40A-R (marked with black dots), black rubber 50A-R, black soft-landing pads (hard), and grey rubber soft-landing pads (soft).Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/vTT4O2E.png)
For some keyboard science, 50A means a material hardness of 50 on the Shore durometer A scale. R is the size. According to the WASD site, R reduces key actuation travel by 0.4mm and L reduces by 0.2mm; this means thats how thick these rings are. However, I measured the o-ring and dampener in regards to this question (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38945.msg820191#msg820191) and realized that R = 0.4 cm = 4 mm and L = 0.2 cm = 2 mm. The soft-landing pads measure in at 1 mm or 0.1 cm.I then installed them into the following keys:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/Jz6GUX2.jpg)And yes, rkinze and Leslieann were right. The cross-bracing in the Leo caps make the o-rings and dampeners feel way different.
- F1 and F2 have the thin red o-rings (40A-L) which are advertised as soft.
- F3 and F4 have the thick pink o-rings z (40A-R) which are advertised as soft.
- F5 and F6 have the black o-rings (50A-R) which are advertised as hard.
- F7 and F8 have the black soft-landing pads which are advertised as harder.
- F9 and F10 have the grey hard-landing pads which are advertised as softer.
40A-L Red O-Rings
These still feel really nice. There’s now less cushion-y-ness but still feel squishy. The travel reduction really feels different now. These o-rings now really feel like they stop actuation sooner. It seems like they stop the travel right after the click. I still really like these.
40A-R Pink O-Rings
These are the same as the blue o-rings sold at WASDKeyboards. They really stop actuation quickly; it feels like they stop at the click - almost mid click. They feel the same as the red o-rings when you bottom out. They feel nice but I really dislike how much actuation is cutoff.
50A-R Black O-Rings
These don’t hit as hard as they do when they’re installed on the SP caps. But they still feel really hard when you bottom out. The bottom out doesn’t feel like hitting the board but it’s still hard. And again, the travel stops right at the click. My least favorite.
Black Dampeners
This time I feel the dampeners way more. They definitely reduce a travel a bit; seems like a little less than the red o-rings but it definitely stops travel. These are cushiony and squishy. Definitely way softer than the red o-rings. I really like these.
Grey Dampeners
These are the harder version of the greys. A smidge less of travel distance but the bottom out still feels hard, almost like the black o-rings. They feel like they stop actuation very close to the bottom. But I kinda like them. They still have a touch of give which is kind of pleasant to the touch.
So I think that with my stock Leopold caps, the black dampeners feel the best to me. And with the SP caps installed, the red o-rings (40A-L) o-rings feel the best.
Videos (ToC) (#post_TOC)
So I talked a lot about how everything sounds right but what if you didn’t believe me. It’s ok, check these videos out.
This has grey dampeners installed on a QPad MK-80 with Cherry MX Blues.
This video is from WASDKeyboards Info (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/videos) section. It has sound comparisons of boards with MX Blues, Browns, and Blacks with and without o-rings installed.
Old Article (ToC) (#post_TOC)
I installed them onto the function row on my Filco MJ2. I have blues as you’ll see.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dbcf6dC.jpg)
- F1 through F4 had the grey dampeners which are advertised as hard/firm
- F5 through F8 had the black dampeners which are advertised as soft
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/4rpd1o5.jpg)
- F9 through F12 had the black o-rings which are called 50A-R.
- Print Screen through Pasuse have the red o-rings which are called 40A-L
For some keyboard shinfo, 50A means a material hardness of 50 on the Shore durometer A scale. R is the size. According to the WASD site, R reduces key actuation travel by 0.4mm and L reduces by 0.2mm.See the correction in the new article.
So here are my thoughts on each set:
Grey Dampeners
They don’t really dampen/soften the bottoming out. They seem only to negligibly change the travel in the switch. I guess the only thing that feels different to me is that the impact when the key is completely depressed feels slightly less abrupt and the travel distance was negligibly shorter. And the sound was a bit muffled. Anyways, I didn’t really care for them. When I think dampener, I think of something cushiony. Like the black ones!
Black Dampeners
These felt really nice when I bottomed out. There was no jarring stop, just a touch of squishy and softness. Plus they made the board a little quieter. However I didn’t think that they really changed the actuation distance at all. They just made it feel nice to type. These are what I expected when I first heard of them.
Black O-Rings
These bad boys hit HARD. It feels like you hit a plate when you bottom out and it sounds almost the same. These rings feel like the switch is jammed as well which is really frustrating to me. They also really reduce the travel. They pretty much stop the travel right after the blue switches actuate and click, which felt very very weird. However, I learned to kind of like it. I felt like there was some kind of change going on after I put them in. Plus? They really made my board way quieter. Unlike the greys dampeners…
Red O-Rings
I think these are my favorites. They reduce the travel just a touch so it feels nice and they also soften the impact. Since they’re not as hard, they have a bit more give and when you type the feel like a little cushion. They REALLY made things quieter; probably most quiet out of the four o-rings/dampeners types I tried. If I were recommend something, these would be it.
oh come on, nobody has any opinion on double red?
oh come on, nobody has any opinion on double red?
oh come on, nobody has any opinion on double red?
I no longer have o-rings so I can't experiment with this myself.
oh come on, nobody has any opinion on double red?
I do. It sucks.
for 50A-R O-rings, if you put them on Cherry MX Reds, would they feel very similar to laptop keyboards in terms of travel distance?
for 50A-R O-rings, if you put them on Cherry MX Reds, would they feel very similar to laptop keyboards in terms of travel distance?
Not at all. Scissor switches don't have much distance
I agree with Pacifist, the travel distance on scissor switches is very small and o-rings + red switches won't feel like that. Maybe two o-rings but apparently that feels like garbage.
I agree with Pacifist, the travel distance on scissor switches is very small and o-rings + red switches won't feel like that. Maybe two o-rings but apparently that feels like garbage.
ok thank you. My first time buying orings but they are 50A-R. I bought them for reduced travel distance to put into my cherry red keyboard.
Are you always this aggressive or what lyrill?
I literally said I've never tried it so I used the word "apparently". No need to be so passive aggressive. My opinion is just that. Ignorant? Ignorant is you not being able to present your opinion without throwing a fit like a 5 year old.
I have a Kinesis Advantage with browns switches, and I got the sampler pack of O-rings from WASD, and tried a lot of different combinations. You can definitely put 2 O-rings on the same key and it reduces the travel.
Here's my memory of things I've tried:
- Black O-rings give you a hard landing. I actually thought that was what I wanted at first, but after typing on them for a while they kinda hurt your fingers from bottoming out on that hard surface, so I switched to the blue ones, and then to the red ones.
- I wanted short-travel at first, and so i tried putting 2 black O-rings on each key, and it worked but again, I didn't end up liking it in practice.
- I actually even put 3 black o-rings on some keys, and it worked too, but it reduced the travel so much that sometimes the key wouldn't even actuate, depending on how hard I bottomed out.
- like @badugi, at first I was naively trying to recreate the feel of the apple laptop keyboard, with the short throw (~1mm!) and hard landing. But in practice, I think that's a waste of effort and my new clear switches feel so nice that I've mostly given up on that pursuit now. But if you want short throw, the best way to do it is Jailhouse Blues. I've tried that on a few keys on another board and like it, but haven't done a whole board to try the real day-long typing experience on it.
- the only exception to the above is that I left the double-black o-rings on a few of the thumb keys, like my "enter" key and I think maybe the space key too, because I tend to really pound down on that enter with my thumb and it feels better to have it have a hard landing than a squishy one.
- between the red and the blue o-ring, my experience is exactly how WASD advertises them -- The blue ones are a little bit more squishy and reduce the travel a little more, and the reds are a little bit less squishy and reduce the travel a little less. Both feel nice, much nicer than the stock switch/cap when you bottom out.
- I ended up using blue o-rings on most keys, and red ones on some of the pinky keys so they have a little longer travel. not sure why but it felt better to me for the pinky keys.
I have a Kinesis Advantage with browns switches, and I got the sampler pack of O-rings from WASD, and tried a lot of different combinations. You can definitely put 2 O-rings on the same key and it reduces the travel.
Here's my memory of things I've tried:
- Black O-rings give you a hard landing. I actually thought that was what I wanted at first, but after typing on them for a while they kinda hurt your fingers from bottoming out on that hard surface, so I switched to the blue ones, and then to the red ones.
- I wanted short-travel at first, and so i tried putting 2 black O-rings on each key, and it worked but again, I didn't end up liking it in practice.
- I actually even put 3 black o-rings on some keys, and it worked too, but it reduced the travel so much that sometimes the key wouldn't even actuate, depending on how hard I bottomed out.
- like @badugi, at first I was naively trying to recreate the feel of the apple laptop keyboard, with the short throw (~1mm!) and hard landing. But in practice, I think that's a waste of effort and my new clear switches feel so nice that I've mostly given up on that pursuit now. But if you want short throw, the best way to do it is Jailhouse Blues. I've tried that on a few keys on another board and like it, but haven't done a whole board to try the real day-long typing experience on it.
- the only exception to the above is that I left the double-black o-rings on a few of the thumb keys, like my "enter" key and I think maybe the space key too, because I tend to really pound down on that enter with my thumb and it feels better to have it have a hard landing than a squishy one.
- between the red and the blue o-ring, my experience is exactly how WASD advertises them -- The blue ones are a little bit more squishy and reduce the travel a little more, and the reds are a little bit less squishy and reduce the travel a little less. Both feel nice, much nicer than the stock switch/cap when you bottom out.
- I ended up using blue o-rings on most keys, and red ones on some of the pinky keys so they have a little longer travel. not sure why but it felt better to me for the pinky keys.
Doesn't WASD only have red and blue O-rings?
Are you always this aggressive or what lyrill?
I literally said I've never tried it so I used the word "apparently". No need to be so passive aggressive. My opinion is just that. Ignorant? Ignorant is you not being able to present your opinion without throwing a fit like a 5 year old.
BTW I think these are the same as the black ones WASD used to sell (70A Durometer): http://www.amazon.com/109-Buna-N-O-Ring-Durometer-Black/dp/B000FMYR9S/ref=pd_sim_indust_8
BTW I think these are the same as the black ones WASD used to sell (70A Durometer): http://www.amazon.com/109-Buna-N-O-Ring-Durometer-Black/dp/B000FMYR9S/ref=pd_sim_indust_8
people have been reporting that wasd stuff is different from amazon stuff
Red O-RingsI ask because try as I might I cannot understand the measurement system but your explanation sounds like ^these^ reds are exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks again. Lemons.
I think these are my favorites. They reduce the travel just a touch so it feels nice and they also soften the impact. Since they’re not as hard, they have a bit more give and when you type the feel like a little cushion. They REALLY made things quieter; probably most quiet out of the four o-rings/dampeners types I tried. If I were recommend something, these would be it.
@CPTBadAss, Thanks for such a detailed review. I need some advice and hope you can help. I have only just bought my first mechanical keyboard - Keycool 87II blue switch. But I have found that I tend to bottom out rather a lot on it and think maybe rings might work better for me.
I have found these rings on eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120pcs-Keycap-Rubber-O-Ring-Switch-Dampeners-RED-For-CHERRY-MX-Free-Shipping-/261268631414?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd4d2ef76), are these the same as the ones you mention in your last paragraph?QuoteRed O-RingsI ask because try as I might I cannot understand the measurement system but your explanation sounds like ^these^ reds are exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks again. Lemons.
I think these are my favorites. They reduce the travel just a touch so it feels nice and they also soften the impact. Since they’re not as hard, they have a bit more give and when you type the feel like a little cushion. They REALLY made things quieter; probably most quiet out of the four o-rings/dampeners types I tried. If I were recommend something, these would be it.
I think these are closer to what WASD used to sell in terms of hardness - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XWXCE/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I'd bought these and tried it for a period of time. Didn't like it much as it reduced travel distance too drastically for my taste. Can't compare to those from WASD red/blues as I'd never had the chance to try those.
@CPTBadAss, Thanks for such a detailed review. I need some advice and hope you can help. I have only just bought my first mechanical keyboard - Keycool 87II blue switch. But I have found that I tend to bottom out rather a lot on it and think maybe rings might work better for me.
I have found these rings on eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120pcs-Keycap-Rubber-O-Ring-Switch-Dampeners-RED-For-CHERRY-MX-Free-Shipping-/261268631414?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd4d2ef76), are these the same as the ones you mention in your last paragraph?QuoteRed O-RingsI ask because try as I might I cannot understand the measurement system but your explanation sounds like ^these^ reds are exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks again. Lemons.
I think these are my favorites. They reduce the travel just a touch so it feels nice and they also soften the impact. Since they’re not as hard, they have a bit more give and when you type the feel like a little cushion. They REALLY made things quieter; probably most quiet out of the four o-rings/dampeners types I tried. If I were recommend something, these would be it.
I have a Kinesis Advantage with browns switches, and I got the sampler pack of O-rings from WASD, and tried a lot of different combinations. You can definitely put 2 O-rings on the same key and it reduces the travel.
Here's my memory of things I've tried:
- Black O-rings give you a hard landing. I actually thought that was what I wanted at first, but after typing on them for a while they kinda hurt your fingers from bottoming out on that hard surface, so I switched to the blue ones, and then to the red ones.
- I wanted short-travel at first, and so i tried putting 2 black O-rings on each key, and it worked but again, I didn't end up liking it in practice.
- I actually even put 3 black o-rings on some keys, and it worked too, but it reduced the travel so much that sometimes the key wouldn't even actuate, depending on how hard I bottomed out.
- like @badugi, at first I was naively trying to recreate the feel of the apple laptop keyboard, with the short throw (~1mm!) and hard landing. But in practice, I think that's a waste of effort and my new clear switches feel so nice that I've mostly given up on that pursuit now. But if you want short throw, the best way to do it is Jailhouse Blues. I've tried that on a few keys on another board and like it, but haven't done a whole board to try the real day-long typing experience on it.
- the only exception to the above is that I left the double-black o-rings on a few of the thumb keys, like my "enter" key and I think maybe the space key too, because I tend to really pound down on that enter with my thumb and it feels better to have it have a hard landing than a squishy one.
- between the red and the blue o-ring, my experience is exactly how WASD advertises them -- The blue ones are a little bit more squishy and reduce the travel a little more, and the reds are a little bit less squishy and reduce the travel a little less. Both feel nice, much nicer than the stock switch/cap when you bottom out.
- I ended up using blue o-rings on most keys, and red ones on some of the pinky keys so they have a little longer travel. not sure why but it felt better to me for the pinky keys.
if you bottom out a lot and that actually gets IN the way of typing then cherry red is your best bet as opposed to using o rings, just sayin--or you should try green/white, not sure if i understand you correctly--cus, if you cannot change the fact you just want to use slamming force to type and that's your thing, then you have to go with heavier switches, except maybe those heavy switches will instead encourage you to use more force, depending on how much you already use--which is already more than obviously the blue, but there is a slight chance it's smaller than the 85g switches HAHA
No. I never thought of it since I didn't want to dampen the sound anymore. I also don't have o-rings anymore so the only experiment I could do is with soft landing pads.
Ok just curious! I just received a board with greens now so maybe I just need to do my own experimenting!
No. I never thought of it since I didn't want to dampen the sound anymore. I also don't have o-rings anymore so the only experiment I could do is with soft landing pads.
Ok just curious! I just received a board with greens now so maybe I just need to do my own experimenting!
Hi, I'm new here. Great discussion! Just bought a new CMStorm XT with Green switches. I find the travel is a bit too long and the bottoming out sound is a bit annoying. Wonder what customization will be best for Greens. Can't decide between the red or blue o-rings. Many seem to favor the red o-rings. Cause the Greens are very similar to the Blue's, maybe no O-ring at all and go for a dampener? What is your advise on the Greens? tnx
Also, has anyone tried any various types of dampeners on Alps switches (other than the ones built in to dampened switches)? I’m curious how well some sorbothane cut to the right shape would work there, too.
just ordered 40A-L from WASD for my brown
I've tried all 5 dampeners mentioned in the review and I agree completely with CPTBadAss. Red O-rings and grey landing pads are the most comfortable. Even on MX Red keys where there isn't tactile feedback during actuation the blue rings still felt too large. However, one thing I recommend is using a heavier dampener (blue O-ring or black landing pad) for the space bar since 1) it tends to be hit harder and 2) hitting the key from the side with your thumbs makes the loss in actuation distance much less noticeable. For reference, I've tested all 5 dampeners on a QFR MX Red with OEM profile caps from WASD.
FYI, I still prefer the sound and feel of my HHKB Type-S as far as typing is concerned. I don't know about noise in terms of volume, but the muffled thock of a silenced Topre switch is just less jarring than a dampened MX Red. I'm not sure if there's a difference between the quiet versions of the HHKB vs the RealForce.
Anyone know which kind these Filco o-rings are?
http://www.keyboardco.com/product/o-ring-switch-dampeners-for-filco-keyboards.asp
cptbadass, that link,
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.msg1186392#msg1186392
i don't get it.
did he use wasd stuff? the red and white looks like they are obviously not wasd, so I don't know why he would exclude the obvious best o ring choice and conclude about what to use as far as whatever keycap you have for anyone wanting to get orings
as far as I am concerned, I have abs and pbt keycaps, and I find the wobby to be a bit too much on the pbt, but almost the same as abs anyways. I am using double red and I have been since I bought orings. blues and blacks remain collector items, just like my keyboards that aren't cherry red, but not saying I will never change.
it's interesting cus his conclusiion is suggesting that maybe I should use red on pbt and blue/black on abs, but my experience says the opposite. Yeah I am using double, but I don't feel wobby on abs.
I'm new to the forum and fairly new to mechanical kbs. I have a new Ducky 9008S3 coming in a couple days and I'm wondering if being backlit will interfere with O-rings.....anybody know if the position of the LED's will present a problem?
I hope it won't be a problem. I ordered the red o-rings from WASD.
You're welcome and thanks for the kind words.
You're welcome and thanks for the kind words.
Well CPT I installed the red 40A O-rings from WASD and all I can say is What a difference! First, they really quieted the clack from bottoming out. I have mx blues and I like the little click from them, but the clack from bottoming out was kind of obnoxious, and the O-rings got rid of that.
What's equally important to me is the O-rings provide a very effective cushion from bottoming out.
I'm impressed. I'll be using O-rings from now on.
Thanks again CPT. :thumb:
Does anyone know what material is used in EK’s landing pads?
Swill has posted (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.msg1186392#msg1186392) some numbers on travel distance and keycaps. It's great info and I think might help compliment this review. Shoutouts to swill for that keyboard science :D.
Hope you don't mind me referencing your post swill ^__^.
So i ordered a bunch of thick O-rings from Imsto: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=78
I just got them today and tried them on. I'm somewhat disappointed. They do feel a little hard, not as squishy as the WASD O-rings. There is still that slight sharpness of sound when you bottom out.
But the major downside is the reduction in travel distance. They reduce travel distance by abit too much I think. Some of my keys don't actuate properly after having them.
I did a test by putting about 10 keys with the O-rings on the board and opened up a blank document and pressed each key 10 times with vs without O rings. And without O rings were much more consistent. Having the O rings reduced the consistency of actuation by 2-3 actuations every 10 presses.
I tried different types of presses as well, like hard pressing when I'm gaming, or just lightly pressing when we type some letters that our fingers don't emphasize so much on. Both were rather inconsistent but pressing harder did give abit more consistency when the contact points start to touch abit.
I made sure the O-rings were put properly and I used a guitar pick to press them all the way in. They do stand out a noticable bit higher than the other keys without the O-rings, which is expected considering how thick they are.
I am rather disappointed with this purchase. Or maybe I'm not using them correctly. I'm using a non backlit KBT pure with stock keycaps
[snip]
If you have a caliper, could you measure the thickness of them for me?
I think his thick o-rings are designed for OEM caps. Are you using oem or cherry profile caps? If you are using cherry profile, this is probably an expected result. I have his small o-rings and they are great for cherry profile caps.
they're the big ones used here. At the bottom of the thread there's a picture showing. I think they're about 2.5mm thick as mentioned in the thread.
Is there a way to tell if the KBT pure (Non-pro) comes with the cherry or OEM profile?
Does this happen often?
So i ordered a bunch of thick O-rings from Imsto: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=78 (http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=78)
I just got them today and tried them on. I'm somewhat disappointed. They do feel a little hard, not as squishy as the WASD O-rings. There is still that slight sharpness of sound when you bottom out.
But the major downside is the reduction in travel distance. They reduce travel distance by abit too much I think. Some of my keys don't actuate properly after having them.
I did a test by putting about 10 keys with the O-rings on the board and opened up a blank document and pressed each key 10 times with vs without O rings. And without O rings were much more consistent. Having the O rings reduced the consistency of actuation by 2-3 actuations every 10 presses.
I tried different types of presses as well, like hard pressing when I'm gaming, or just lightly pressing when we type some letters that our fingers don't emphasize so much on. Both were rather inconsistent but pressing harder did give abit more consistency when the contact points start to touch abit.
I made sure the O-rings were put properly and I used a guitar pick to press them all the way in. They do stand out a noticable bit higher than the other keys without the O-rings, which is expected considering how thick they are.
I am rather disappointed with this purchase. Or maybe I'm not using them correctly. I'm using a non backlit KBT pure with stock keycaps
[snip]
If you have a caliper, could you measure the thickness of them for me?
I think his thick o-rings are designed for OEM caps. Are you using oem or cherry profile caps? If you are using cherry profile, this is probably an expected result. I have his small o-rings and they are great for cherry profile caps.
I think I read somewhere that these fat o-rings cannot be used with DSA or thick cherry caps. Is that true?
Don't advertise selling things outside of the Classifieds.
What O-Ring i need for a CM Storm QuickFire XT - CHERRY MX Brown (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EQV0W02) and Corsair Vengeance K70 - Cherry MX Red (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CD1FC6G)?
What O-Ring i need for a CM Storm QuickFire XT - CHERRY MX Brown (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EQV0W02) and Corsair Vengeance K70 - Cherry MX Red (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CD1FC6G)?
I do not know, that you can recommend me the best, since you have more experience.Hmmm, RTFA?
Question: Soft is same to Membrane landing and Hard is same to Mechanical landing?
1. Soft/Hard landing (i don't care, that feels best for you, since you tested the 2)
Anyone know which kind these Filco o-rings are?
http://www.keyboardco.com/product/o-ring-switch-dampeners-for-filco-keyboards.asp
I'm new to the mechanical scene and wanted to get a better idea how the O rings will feel and found this interesting reference on a site:
Duro 20A = Rubber Band
Duro 40A = Pencil Eraser
Duro 60A = Car Tire Tread
Duro 70A* = Running Shoe Sole
Duro 80A = Leather Belt
Duro 100A = Shopping Cart Wheel
Edit: Better yet, here's a chart:Show Image(http://www.allsealsinc.com/durometer.gif)
Red O-Rings
I think these are my favorites. They reduce the travel just a touch so it feels nice and they also soften the impact. Since they’re not as hard, they have a bit more give and when you type the feel like a little cushion. They REALLY made things quieter; probably most quiet out of the four o-rings/dampeners types I tried. If I were recommend something, these would be it.
I prefer the 40A-L .2cm thick O-Rings.
I cover how the soft landing pads feel in the OP. To further reduce sound, put shelf liner in both keyboards and place the keyboards on something like a mousepad or a towel.
Last question:
Can i use this 40A-L - 2 mm (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AZQ3966) in both keyboards? Link (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40227.msg1310661#msg1310661)
Is it able to use both o-rings and pad dampeners? And where can I (in the EU) buy pad dampeners? Would it make a noticeable difference in feel and sound?
Overall, I quite like them. But if they are indeed 0.2, I am wondering how 0.4 feels.
1. Soft/Hard landing (i don't care, that feels best for you, since you tested the 2)
2. Minimal travel distance reduction (I do not want to feel like a laptop keyboard)
3. Reduce sound
I stand by my recommendation I posted above. With o-rings installed, the switches feel closer to scissor switches in terms of travel to me. Landing pads have the least amount of travel reduction.
For me [landing pads] are too soft (even the firm ones are less than 30A durometer I *think*) and I cannot easily feel when the key bottomed out, which is an important part of tactile feedback you expect from a keyboard.I think feeling the bottom out is entirely unnecessary, assuming there’s a sufficient force drop at the tactile/actuation point, and enough post-actuation travel. This may be impossible with Cherry MX switches in general, of which even the “tactile” varieties might better be described as “linear with a little speed bump”, but for real tactile switches (e.g. buckling springs, Alps, space invaders, SMK, etc.), I’d personally prefer to have force keep increasing as the key depresses, but no point at which it hard stops, on a typical keypress.
I’d personally prefer to have force keep increasing as the key depresses, but no point at which it hard stops, on a typical keypress.
I'm living in Europe and buying those WASD or Max Keyboard O-rings is too expensive for me to be able to conduct some tests ! Shipping cost is around $7 ... roughly half the price of the product, not cool at all :(
After some research, I was able to buy some o-rings directly from manufacturers in China. It took some time to come to me, but once there, I was glad to have the choice between several different thicknesses and hardness.
Here are the ones I've tried:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/FJ62Ff3.jpg)
Moar info :
- "Slim" O-rings : 5mm (ID) 8mm (OD) 1.5mm (CS)
- "Fat" O-rings : 5mm (ID) 10mm (OD) 2.4mm (CS)
A few comments :
- 40A "Fat" O-rings combined with Cherry MX Clear switches seem to be the best for me. The travel distance of the keys is now really reduced without hurting the "feeling" produced by the switches !
- I was worried about the LED backlighting but it turns out that there is still enough light reaching the legends of my keys, even with the thicker o-rings.
I will not go much more into detail about my opinion.
There has been a lot of talk about o-rings (which are strictly equivalent to those I bought) and probably much more comprehensive than what I could offer.
CPTBadAss has done a great job by centralizing information on this compendium (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53990.0).
I made a video (http://youtu.be/r9TUa_az9rI) yesterday comparing the sound dampening and key travel reduction on the following switches : Cherry MX Black / Red / Blue / Brown / Green.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/8WlyEL2.jpg)
Maybe this can bring some information - feel free to give me your opinion.
Could you specify what kind of keycaps you used? Profile/height and crossbars matter.
Where? I see no such thing in the post—that's why I asked. There's only the switch tester in a picture/video, but I don't think it's something I'd expect people to type on.Could you specify what kind of keycaps you used? Profile/height and crossbars matter.
He specified Cherry.
Those keycaps look like they have cross bars in them so the o-rings sit properly. In the video, it looks like Lpwl is using the QWERKeys V1 tester with those clear OEM caps.
Thanks for sharing Lpwl! The video and pictures are great ^__^
Could you specify what kind of keycaps you used? Profile/height and crossbars matter.
Where? I see no such thing in the post—that's why I asked. There's only the switch tester in a picture/video, but I don't think it's something I'd expect people to type on.Could you specify what kind of keycaps you used? Profile/height and crossbars matter.
He specified Cherry.
I just received both 40A-L red and 40A-R o-rings, and tried all possible combinations on both of my KBC Poker II with cherry mx red and Filco Majestouch with cherry mx blue switches.
Surprisingly blue switches feel amazing with thicker 40A-R blue o-rings, cause all you can hear is that clicky sound without any bottoming out.
For red switches, I am little bit undecided, but currently I am using both blue and red o-rings combined. Most will say it's overkill, but I really like the feeling, because it's so light, I just barely need to touch key and it activates. So far this combination is my favorite.
I just received both 40A-L red and 40A-R o-rings, and tried all possible combinations on both of my KBC Poker II with cherry mx red and Filco Majestouch with cherry mx blue switches.
Surprisingly blue switches feel amazing with thicker 40A-R blue o-rings, cause all you can hear is that clicky sound without any bottoming out.
For red switches, I am little bit undecided, but currently I am using both blue and red o-rings combined. Most will say it's overkill, but I really like the feeling, because it's so light, I just barely need to touch key and it activates. So far this combination is my favorite.
Like I said before, some thicker O-rings (simple or doubled) is something that everyone should try !
I'm loving my "fat" O-rings with Cherry MX Clear.
Maybe you could send some you have left to swill (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34585.msg1409903#msg1409903) ? He is trying to "write a comprehensive guide to outline the different o-rings that are available and how they compare against each other".
I just received both 40A-L red and 40A-R o-rings, and tried all possible combinations on both of my KBC Poker II with cherry mx red and Filco Majestouch with cherry mx blue switches.
Surprisingly blue switches feel amazing with thicker 40A-R blue o-rings, cause all you can hear is that clicky sound without any bottoming out.
For red switches, I am little bit undecided, but currently I am using both blue and red o-rings combined. Most will say it's overkill, but I really like the feeling, because it's so light, I just barely need to touch key and it activates. So far this combination is my favorite.
Like I said before, some thicker O-rings (simple or doubled) is something that everyone should try !
I'm loving my "fat" O-rings with Cherry MX Clear.
Maybe you could send some you have left to swill (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34585.msg1409903#msg1409903) ? He is trying to "write a comprehensive guide to outline the different o-rings that are available and how they compare against each other".
I never tried mx browns, and that's my current goal now, wonder how o-rings will feel with that in comparison to red switches :)
Swill is in Canada, I am in Netherlands, do you think it's worth it sending some rings to other side of the world?
Totally worth it ! It would help many people.
It cost me around 1€ to send some leftovers to him (in a simple padded envelope) and I guess that swill would be ok to cover shipping.
Totally worth it ! It would help many people.
It cost me around 1€ to send some leftovers to him (in a simple padded envelope) and I guess that swill would be ok to cover shipping.
Ok, if he does not have 40A-L already I can send :) Blue ones are all used on my keyboards though :D
Guys Iam trying to buy some o-rings from Ebay. There is plenty of options but no-one is offering information about hardness of the material. I contacted 4 sellers and only one was able to give me the information (55 - nah).
I need to go with ebay since I live in europe and the shipping from US is super expensive in comparison with the Free shipping offers from Asia :thumb: .
Anyway If anyone have some tip on a good Asia Ebay seller with 40 hardness O-rings please tell. Thanks!
I would argue that the goal of a key-stroke is an actuation and time a key takes to travel beyond this point is a wasted time. The O-rings which are effectively reducing the unneeded excessive key travel are "thick" O-rings, not the thin ones. Additional benefit of those blue "thick" O-rings is better cushioning for those of us, who tend to bottom out hard.You gotta love dem rubberdomes.
I would argue that the goal of a key-stroke is actuation and time a key takes to travel beyond this point is basically a wasted time.The point of having the stroke continue post-actuation is to allow the typist to reliably actuate the switch at just a little bit more than the force required for actuation; on switches with the actuation at the very bottom of the stroke, especially where there isn’t a steep drop in force (“tactile response”) nearly coincident with the actuation point, it’s quite common for typists to get unreliable actuation unless they use dramatically more force than required. Much if not most of the injury to fingers comes from the impact at the bottom of the stroke, so it’s a great advantage to have a switch with either enough post-actuation travel or a sharp tactile point at actuation, because this trains the typist to trust that the switch will reliably actuate, and as a result it’s possible to use much less force, especially right at the bottom of the stroke.
Additional benefit of those blue "thick" O-rings is better cushioning for those of us, who tend to bottom out hard.Bottoming out hard is quite bad for your joints, even with rubber dampers. I recommend trying to train yourself to only use as much force as necessary to actuate the switch. There’s nothing wrong with pushing the key all the way down, but you definitely should not be slamming it into the bottom.
Next try will be ergo clears or alps. I'd like more feedback in the switch and even less noise. I may have to try Torpre.Try Matias quiet switches.
Big question to anyone that's installed o-rings before. Everyone that has done this installation just mentions removing keycap, putting on o-ring, putting back on key cap. And most will rave about how it noticeably reduced their bottoming out distance. But here's the problem I find with that:
When I go to put the keycap back on, it takes considerably more force to slide the keycap back on all the way (something like 1-3lbs of force I'd estimate based on when you first removed the keycaps and/or when put them back on without o-rings) than the amount of tension in whatever spring you're using (45-80g most likely) So about 10-20 times more force, we can all agree on that right? The spring force is not able to push the keycap back on all the way. So how does this slide the keycap back on all the way? Answer, as far I can tell it doesn't, it never will!! Why, because the O-ring blocks the KEY CAP from moving all the way to the black plastic stationary part of the switch like it would normally without any obstruction, ie the o-ring. Thus, you are never going to push the keycap on all the way. The best you can do is compress the elastic o-ring slightly, this tiny compression distance is the ONLY reduction in bottoming out travel distance you will get. How, far is that tiny distance? I suggest you try compressing an o-ring. For 50a shore hardness you can MAYBE compress half the thickness if you apply tons of force, like the amount of force that could break the plastic key caps and switches, and for 70a it's much much less, it's not a linear scale.
So unless your key caps just fly on and off like butter with 40g of force, the only way to properly install o-rings is to take apart the entire switch and hold the slider in place while you force the keycap back on. The point of this would be to 1. Reduce the travel distance to bottom out, 2. Secure the key caps on fully (big problem with thicker rings), and 3. lower how high the key caps rest relative to the baseplate/main body of the the keyboard, and in turn your desk/wristpad.
Otherwise, your keycaps are resting up higher, about the thickness of the o-ring minus how far you were able to compress it, and your bottom out distance is only reduced by how much you were able to compress the o-ring.
I'm really surprised I've never seen anyone else share this. Don't believe me, try putting on 2 or 3 of the normal 1.5-1.9mm thick o-rings most people get to pronounce the effect more, you probably won't be able to even get the keycap to stay on properly.
If someone has found otherwise, I'd love to know about it, I've considered freezing my keyboard (without caps on) and warming up the key caps to compress the siders and expand the keycaps slighlty and maybe the 45g springs will be enough then. Otherwise I have to desolder, remove, and take apart every switch then force the keycaps on each slider, then put back to together and resolder every switch, but some of the key caps would block the screws from going back in, so ... Seriously no one else in the world has noticed shared this? (I tried but could not find any such results)