Cherry ML switch based keyboards

[craig]

I'm a programmer, looking for a new keyboard.  I've been reading through a lot of the reviews here and on other websites, learning about the various switch differences, etc.

What I'd like to find is a keyboard with a lower profile than the Filco Otaku, Das Keyboard, Cherry, etc.  I saw that Cherry makes the ML series low profile 2mm mechanical switch and briefly had my hopes raised.  After spending a some time with google, I've been unable to find a keyboard that has these switches.  Anyone know of one?

Or more generally, does anyone have any recomendations on keyboards that come close to my "dream" keyboard feature list?  I didn't see anything in the keyboard list, and none with the Cherry ML switches.  My ideal would have the following characteristics:

- Low profile:  No wrist-wrest required.  Arms/palms wrest on desk.
- If flat enough, back rows don't need to be elevated (like a laptop keyboard)
- Mechanical switches:  tactal non-clicky, low profile (E.g. Cherry ML)
- Full size arrow keys in an inverted T layout
- Slightly contoured rows such that the outside edges of each row curve towards the function keys in sort of a smile shape.
- Black w/ little to no writing/labels
- 87 key (can live with 104 key)

Optional, but nice to have
- Possibly backlit
- USB ports
- Vol Up/Down/mute - Don't use any other media keys.
- Bluetooth

Thanks for the help and feedback.  After a dozen or more keyboards, I'm looking forward to getting a good one that I'll have for years.  Right now, I'm looking at the Filco Otaku, but the high profile has me concerned.

[Rajagra]

You could do worse than try a ML-4100 (G84-4100). They have ML switches and can often be found cheap.

They are really more of a travel keyboard I suppose, but in all honesty I think I could live with it as a main keyboard.

Anyway, they are a way to try out the ML keys, and are handy things to have. Did I mention they can be found cheap? :-)

[itlnstln]

Cherry ML-based keyboards are few and far between, at least as far as I can tell.  I have only seen two (it doesn't mean there aren't more, of course), and they are the ML-4100 (G84-4100) and the Optimus Maximus (if you have about $1500).  I would search for the term "G84 keyboard."  The Cherry part number for ML-based keyboards would be G84-XXXX.

[molto]

Cherry keyboards with ML switches:
G84-4100
G84-4400
G84-4420
G84-5200
G84-5400
G84-5500

[craig]

Yeah, the G84-4100 looked too small to use everyday as a programmers keyboard (I have big hands), but I'll check out some of those other cherry keyboards with ML switches.

Thanks!
Craig

[craig]

Before I pull the trigger.... Anyone have any thoughts on the G84-5200?  Thoughts when compared to the Filco Otaku?

[keyb_gr]

Apples and oranges, I'd think. The G84 is little more than half as high and heavy as the Filco tenkeyless, being far more of a portable keyboard. Same applies for pricing here in Germany.

Note that ML switches apparently like to block when you hit a key on the corner.

[lal]

Yeah, the G84-4100 looked too small to use everyday as a programmers keyboard (I have big hands), but I'll check out some of those other cherry keyboards with ML switches.

All these boards beginning with G84 are basically the same keyboard with variations like an added trackball, touchpad or numpad.  Dimension of the alphanumeric key cluster (which is smaller than normal) and general appearance of the boards is 100% identical.

Besides the ridiculous Optimus Maximus there is the Tandberg Display TDV 5010 and some Datalux space savers which use Cherry ML switches too.

[Bollwerk]

The Layout of the G84-4100 is a bit different than the versions with a trackbacl or a touchpad.

I would recommend, looking for one without Win-Keys. That would be 83 Keys.
That is, because the 86-key-Versions have a ridiculous short Space-Key which ends under the [n].

[molto]

All these boards beginning with G84 are basically the same keyboard with variations like an added trackball, touchpad or numpad.  Dimension of the alphanumeric key cluster (which is smaller than normal) and general appearance of the boards is 100% identical.

No, there are differences in the layouts.

[skartt]

Note that ML switches apparently like to block when you hit a key on the corner.

I can confirm this!

[craig]

Sticking keys doesn't sound good at all.  It doesn't sound like there is a low profile keyboard with high quality mechanical keys available then.  Guess I'll go back to the Otaku and a wrist wrest.

Here are a couple of pics of the G84-5200 and G84-4100 for comparison.

[molto]

I've already ordered a G84-5200, it should arrive in a few days (maybe even this week). I'm going to test it and share my findings.

[craig]

Looking forward to it Molto.  Thanks.  

[Rajagra]

Note that ML switches apparently like to block when you hit a key on the corner.

To be fair, you really do need to hit the key right on the corner to have this problem. I never even noticed it on my 4100 until just now when I read this and tested it.

[craig]

Well, I punted on finding my ideal keyboard and bought a Filco Otaku with Cherry Browns.  A comfortable keyboard layout for someone with big hands and good switches seemed like it would be the most important quality to find.  I'll try it with a wristwrest for a while and see how it suits me.

Seems like a popular keyboard here, so I'm expecting good things.

[itlnstln]

You won't be disappointed.  They are nice switch.  The MLs tend to get a little heavy for me after awhile and the off-center striking performance leaves a little to be desired (as others have mentioned).

[Eclairz]

The only thing I did not enjoy about the G84 series was that they did not offer a standard layout with insert, home, etc in their standard positions. The pg up insert key placement really irritates me as i press enter on the edge of the keyboard so i would often mis-click and hit pg up instead, other than that the keyboard was fine once you get used to it.

Ideally if cherry were to offer a G84 ML based tenkeyless variant I would be all over it, or a G84 with the G80-1800(with cherry blues) layout which i currently use which would still be small and compact but also provide all of the functionality I need as a programmer.

It would be really cool if cherry could make a netbook with cherry ML keys, it would be more bulkier than current netbooks but provide more tactility and more reliability and also no need to carry an additional keyboard for doing heavy text entry.

[itlnstln]

Eclairz, where did you get the keycaps to do your mod with you G80-3000.  I would like to do something with mine.

[Eclairz]

Steel Series 6G (black keys which have a spare set of white text on grey mx key caps) no longer in production but really nice, slightly taller than my G80-3000 keycaps. The only thing is that they are painted variants. I plan to buy a load of red, black and white single blank key caps to top it off, since I know of a company who produce them nearby.

I have moved them off my G80-3000(white keys) to my K1 raptor however and modified the keys to have a mixture of blue and black keyswitches. The K1 raptor also has the rather nice concave F and J keys.

But that is long term, I have seen some people with old mx keyboards with white text on  brown key switches which look quite classic. But I doubt i'll ever see one go on sale in UK ebay for a reasonable price.

[craig]

The only thing I did not enjoy about the G84 series was that they did not offer a standard layout with insert, home, etc in their standard positions. The pg up insert key placement really irritates me as i press enter on the edge of the keyboard so i would often mis-click and hit pg up instead, other than that the keyboard was fine once you get used to it.

That's exactly what I was worried about.  As programmers we use all of the keys that others rarely use (ESC, Ctrl, Alt, PgUp/PgDn, etc).  As I researched and thought about what I wanted it became apparent that the core of what is absolutely necessary was a keyboard for big hands, with a regular layout, that types nicely.  Something that can be typed on comfortably all day long with easy access to the odd keystrokes that programmers use in their favorite editor.

Now to find a wristwrest in the tray style so the keyboard and wristwrest move together.

Thanks for everyone's help and insight on this.  I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

[molto]

The G84-5200 has just arrived. Initial impression is quite positive:

The production quality is good, the chassis is affixed with ten screws, the lasered lettering is rich in contrast, and although the keyboard only weighs about 480 g (without cord), it does not slide on the desk and hardly bends even with the seperate feet attached. The keys have a pleasant feel and are fairly quiet, there is no annoying reverberation from the springs. While it is true that hitting the keys right at the corners does add some friction, this flaw is negligible for practical purposes. All in all, this keyboard is of higher build quality than my previous G80-3000.

I'm very surprised by the fact that I am able to type at almost original speed with the little familiarization I've had so far, but I am having problems with a few keys however. If I can get used to this layout, I will probably keep this keyboard.

It is interesting to note that the serial number on the back reads "C [...] U41" which would indicate that it was made in the Czech Republic on October, 2008, but that the sicker also reads "Made in Germany".

[keyb_gr]

Thanks for your impressions. Sounds pretty nice.

[craig]

Thanks for the quick review.

When you get a chance....   Photos?   Video/Audio?

[molto]

When you get a chance....   Photos?   Video/Audio?

You may not believe me, but I do not have a camera or microphone right now.

I still have problems with some keys (enter, right shift, etc.) and am now having doubts about the key feel. I'm still undecided, but if I return this keyboard, I'll probably have to stick to some scissor-switch one.

[molto]

I have decided to return this keyboard because I couldn't get used to the layout and because, contrary to my earlier statement, the additional friction does impede my daily typing.

[molto]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I already bought a Cherry eVolution STREAM XT... let's see how it fares.
It's a pity that I couldn't get detailed information on most scissor-switch keyboards. Cherry is the only vendor that provides a force-displacement diagram for its SX switches.

[skartt]

it seems rather difficult to judge scissor keyboards w/o trying them. Cherry has like 3 to 4 different "technologies" for scissor (SX, ATK, LPK,...).

I was not able at all so far to spot a scissor tenkeyless or something compact w/o not acceptable layout .

[molto]

I think ATK, LPK and NTK switches are conventional rubber domes.