Red Modifier Set from SP discussion

[litster]

And at $18 a set, there is already profit margin built into that price.  So the mark up is more than just $30 - $18 each set.   No need to pay jacked up prices and cover someone else's rent.  If you paid too much, you should ask for a refund.

Now you know how much it is marked up here by rag.

[demik]

but people will justify the increase because they are fools and kiss rag's ass no matter what.


so, rag, of the thousands you've made off geekhack/geekhackers.. how much have you donated to keep the site you make money off around?

[metalliqaz]

How much should Rag charge for creating the GB, collecting the orders, sorting the shipments, reshipping everything, dealing with mistakes, dealing with complaints?  How much exactly should that be worth?

[demik]

How much should Rag charge for creating the GB, collecting the orders, sorting the shipments, reshipping everything, dealing with mistakes, dealing with complaints?  How much exactly should that be worth?

you mean, doing what everybody else does without money being the main concern?

you want to make money off gh group buys? front the money yourself and take the risk. get a vendor forum. don't hide behind the group buy label and say you're doing it for the community when you already said "it's not worth my time if i can't pay my rent" then ***** about how certain people don't kiss your ass and disagree with your practices.

[metalliqaz]

Okay then, ban him from doing it.  I'd rather have the buys, though.

[sth]

you'd rather have the buys?
that's telling of the direction geekhack has been going for a while now, and it's really disappointing.

it sure sounds like you're not interested in keyboards, you're interested in buying keyboards.

[metalliqaz]

I'm interested in both.  If you think that GBs shouldn't happen, then lobby to have the marketplace forums closed.

However, it seems pretty obvious that you just want to rip on someone.  Fine, go ahead.  I'm not going to fight this battle.

[sth]

If you think that GBs shouldn't happen, then lobby to have the marketplace forums closed.

you don't get it at all do you

[metalliqaz]

you don't get it at all do you

[hashbaz]

Still need a tsangan kit plz.  Have we asked SP about that?

[Soarer]

And at $18 a set, there is already profit margin built into that price.  So the mark up is more than just $30 - $18 each set.

How do you know this?

1. SP could be selling them at a loss - it would be better than simply throwing them away.

2. Of course there's profit at $30 - but how much of that goes to SP?

If you're going to make accusations, you need to back them up with facts and figures!!

[zzAaron]

to be honest.. i bought a set from SP without posting on the rag post because i didnt feel like threadcrapping.

 i feel bad now.

Why do you feel bad?  You feel bad because you didn't threadcrap?

because i didnt realize how it was fked up to the community for not telling you guys earlier

[1stGenRex]

It's less than $1 a keycap, for DS keycaps, IDK that I would feel all that terrible about paying $30 for the set, if I'd bought it.

Especially considering that some people have sold CC keycaps (SINGLE keycaps) for more than 3x that price.

That being said though, some money SHOULD go back to GH, if there was indeed a lot of profit from this GB.

[OrangeJewce]

Personally I'm tired of the vendetta against Rag. It's pointless and achieves absolutely nothing. I despise the pejorative nature of calling the secondary run of red alert "fake alert", and the continued propagation of bs which surrounds anything to do with him or his group buys.

Let's not use the "Great Finds" forum as a place to beat a REALLY DEAD HORSE. People saying they "know" how out of proportion a mark up may or may not be need to actually get some credible sources for their information instead of heresay and relegate this type of behavior to the off topic forum. The mods should not be putting up with flaming of this nature.

Cheers,

[litster]

You guys are OK to pay 66% markup?

[OrangeJewce]

You guys are OK to pay 66% markup?

Markup from what, exactly? Do we have any real, concrete evidence that SP isn't selling these sets at a significant loss? Do we know exactly how much money was being made from the $30 price? We don't. This is a great find and we should just leave it at that.

Cheers,

[demik]

fake alert

[litster]

right, Rag could be buying these caps from SP at below the $18/set that SP is charging now.  Why don't we all ask Rag how much he is not making by selling these caps at $30 a set?

[mbc]

You guys know that the price for ds sp caps depends on quantity produced/ordered, do you?
Edit:
Lol you guys are raging over the price for production overhead, that cost them nothing in the first place

[Soarer]

right, Rag could be buying these caps from SP at below the $18/set that SP is charging now.  Why don't we all ask Rag how much he is not making by selling these caps at $30 a set?

Indeed, anything COULD be... Rag could be buying these caps from SP at over the $30/set that he is charging for them!

I'm just asking YOU... what FACTS do you have to back up your accusations?

[mkawa]

folks, we seem to have lost the thread in this thread.

most importantly, buying these sets from SP directly supports SP and the efforts they go through to fit our small orders into their production schedule. it also tells them that they can make money off of retail-style efforts and smaller production runs. we ask a lot of SP every time we order from them. SP has invested a lot of effort into interfacing with our small hobbyist community when frankly they could have completely ignored us and still be keeping on; i hope that folks realize that and considering ordering keys out of SP's inventory through their retail interface.

[litster]

right, Rag bought them at $35 each from SP and sold them for $30 because he is a good guy. 

Yup, you are right I don't have the facts of the exact transaction between Rag and SP.  But I know these:

At 200 keycap tier, SP charges:
1x @ $0.95 each
1.25x 1.5x, 1.75x @ $1.24 each
2x @ $1.27 each
2.25x 2.75x @ $1.89 each

At 250 keycap tier, SP charges:
1x @ $0.71 each
1.25x 1.5x, 1.75x @ $1.14 each
2x @ $1.17 each
2.25x 2.75x @ $1.79 each

- These prices includes SP's COGs and production cost and profit margin
- In his Red Alert thread, he claimed that the modifier set only reached the 100 set tier. 
- At least 200 sets and possibly 250 sets of these red mods were made.
- He made up a story about how Melissa at SP made this mistake of making the red modifiers incorrectly and she may lose her job to get more people to buy the left over caps, but it was not true
- He said he is going to give the profit back to SP but has not said how much
- He said he is going to give the profit back to SP but has not said when
- SP is selling the same set for $18 that Rag has been selling them for $30
- Rag has said he makes enough money from group buys to pay for his rent

- You assert that at $18 is selling them below cost
- You assert that Rag could have bought them at more than $30/set and is selling them at a loss

- I assert that he bought them for around the same price that SP is selling them at $18, if not lower, and is selling them at $30/set
- I assert that he makes $12 profit or more for each set he sells
 
We can draw our own conclusion.
 

[Soarer]

I do not assert anything, I've been careful not to.

Except that you are asserting things that you do not have facts to back up.

Let's say it was 200 sets. Is it not true that these were made at two different times? And hence would be priced at the 100 keycap tier? How much does that add up to?

[litster]

no, they are the same batch.

[Soarer]

Not that it matters, since even at 250 keycap tier, it comes to over $30.

You posted all that and didn't even add it up?!

[metafour]

[litster]

I did add them up.  You asked for facts I gave it to you. 

What matter is how much SP is selling them, how much Rag bought them for from SP, and how much he is selling them for.

[Soarer]

I did add them up.  You asked for facts I gave it to you. 

What matter is how much SP is selling them, how much Rag bought them for from SP, and how much he is selling them for.

I don't call most of those facts, since mostly there are built upon assumptions. You say he 'claimed' that he only reached the 100 tier - there is no reason to doubt that - prove that he had more, and I'll listen.

It doesn't matter how much SP is selling them for... what people pay in a group buy is what they buy... if that's 100 sets, they pay 100 tier price. How is that not fair?

I'm sick of your personal vendetta against Rag, when really it's just the way SP's pricing works out that causes all these arguments. Buying 250 of something doesn't cost much more than 100. But it still costs more. There really is no way to run SP group buys with the 100% fairness you seem to demand.

Let's say that 120 people signed up.  And that the 100x price would be $30, total price from SP $3600. And that the 200x price would be $18, total $3600. Somehow $3600 has to go to SP, so do you really expect an organiser to drop the price for everyone to the $18, and pay $1440 themselves?

[litster]

My problem with rag has nothing to do with him making money, but that he lied to make money, and he uses GB as a screen to profit.  GB is supposed to be a a group of people pitching in to get a better buying power.  In Rag's GBs, he uses the group's money to fund his GB, and he makes the profit without fronting any money. 

Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group.  He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount *and* additional stock so he can sell them after the GB is closed.  Not only that, he sells the extra stock at even higher prices to make even more money.  He is taking advantage of the community.  While other people are doing it the fair way, they open up a vendor forum without hiding behind "Group Buys".  What is worse is he lied to the community how Melissa was going to get fired if he doesn't sell the wrong color keycaps.

[Soarer]

He didn't seriously say Melissa was going to get fired, so you can stop repeating that! It was hyperbole to express that she would be in trouble for making a mistake... and that is likely to be true.

Let's put the handling of that mistake to one side, since I think most of your beef is about the pricing regardless of that.

In the hypothetical situation I described, what would you do if you were the organizer? You've only got 120 orders, but that money will buy 200. Seriously, what would you do?

[litster]

He did say Melissa is going to be fired.  Read here if you haven't already http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34434.90  And I am going to keep saying that he lied as long as he says he didn't lie when what he wrote is there for everyone to read. 

As I said I have no problem with people making money.  Just don't hide behind group buys and let everyone pay for his venture and lie about pricing and tiers and make up sob stories to get people buy the keycaps you didn't order.

Regardless, all this is orthogonal to what this thread is about.  SP is selling the set for $18 and Rag has been selling them for $30.  This is fact.  If you think it is OK for Rag to make $12 for each $18 set sold, or if you think Rag paid more than $30 each and still sell them at $30, then the more power to you.

[Soarer]

I know what he said - I'm saying you are deliberately taking at face value that which was clearly hyperbole.

Of course SP isn't going to go out of business over a $2000 mistake, and similarly no-one will be fired, but all the same it is damaging to both SP and Melissa.

You are not answering my question. How would you make the situation fair when you have 120 orders?

[litster]

what does it have anything to do with this thread?

Let me ask you a question.  How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck would chuck wood?

[alaricljs]

The purpose of GBs is to benefit the community.  You get to a point where the same money can get 50% more kit or whatever and you buy 50% more and hold a lottery.  98% of that 50% goes to randomly selected buyers, 2% you keep and do wtf.

[OrangeJewce]

fake alert

I hate this terminology because it's clearly pejorative and prejudiced. Soarer, they have no real evidence. Only heresay, and it's stupid. I'm done here, moving along.

Addendum: at the time of writing the second page of this thread didn't exist.

Cheers,

[metafour]

what does it have anything to do with this thread?

Let me ask you a question.  How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck would chuck wood?

If the wood was treated with arsenic probably not much.

[alaricljs]

I hate this terminology because it's clearly pejorative and prejudiced. Soarer, they have no real evidence. Only heresay, and it's stupid. I'm done here, moving along.

It is childish to choose those words, but the original red alert and rag's red alert are explicitly not the same thing.  And since 2.0 purports the idea of an upgrade which Rag's was not...

[Soarer]

what does it have anything to do with this thread?

It has EVERYTHING to do with this thread, and your complaint about profiteering.

So please, tell us how you would do it.

[litster]

Please tell me EVERYTHING that has to do with this thread and why.

[Soarer]

No need to pay jacked up prices and cover someone else's rent.  If you paid too much, you should ask for a refund.

Now you know how much it is marked up here by rag.

This is what I'm challenging. The attack. And your math.

Answering my question would tell us if you know how to run a fair group buy, given that SP's pricing structure is what it is.

[litster]

If a train is going west at 35 mph and the wind is going east at 12 mph, how challenging would Soarer be?

[Soarer]

If a train is going west at 35 mph and the wind is going east at 12 mph, how challenging would Soarer be?

QFT

You may as well just say you don't know. It's the only correct answer anyone could give.

[litster]

I fail to understand how a pricing decision has anything to do with marking these red modifiers from $18 to $30. 

[Soarer]

I fail to understand how a pricing decision has anything to do with marking these red modifiers from $18 to $30. 

That is exactly my point. Try to work out my question, and you will understand.

edit: You're complaining about a pricing decision, so I'm asking you to make a pricing decision.

[litster]

An your point is? 

[litster]

How does tiered pricing related to a set price of $18 a set from SP and $30 a set from Rag again? 

[Soarer]

An your point is? 

I think I've made my point.

[litster]

I think I've made my point.

My point exactly.

[Soarer]

I think I've made my point.

My point exactly.

Hardly. I've only given up on convincing you that you're wrong to attack Rag.

Everyone else can make their own minds up.

[litster]

Tiered pricing and profit markup by themselves have nothing to do with each other.  Since you are confused between them, attempted to ask me this totally unrelated question, pretending to know what you are talking about, and have not been able to explain how your random question is related to SP selling this red mod set for $18 while Rag has been selling them for $30, let me explain them to you.

Tiered pricing is about the more you buy, the bigger the discount.  SP have this tiered pricing because there is a fixed cost in setting up each run.  So if you order more, the same setup cost can be shared across all the keycaps that are made in that run.  That's why you don't get discount for making the same keycaps in the same profile, same legend, but different color, because different color is not consider the same run or setup.

Profit markup, in this case, is SP selling this set of red mod set, that were wrongly made, for $18 a set.  While Rag is selling them for $30.  Doesn't matter how many sets are purchased, it is the same price.  Rag sells them for $12 profit each set.

You argue that he could have bought them for more than $30 a set and sell them at a loss.  Anyone who has remotely been following how Rag has been running his so-called "group buys" would know that Rag would never do that.  Actually, who would?  Maybe Soarer would.

I would not be surprised if Rag bought them from SP for even cheaper than $18 a set.  Say if he bought at the same price, he is making $12 a set.  Question for you, Soarer, how much would you sell them for if you bought these sets from SP for $18 a set?  What's the right answer?  Now that is a relevant question to this thread, which is about selling a set of keycaps for $30 when the manufacturer sells them direct to customers at $18.

[metalliqaz]

Yak yak yak... can't we all just get along?

They guy makes money, I always figured he did.  My assumption is that boilermaker does, too. I don't know 7bit at all, but I assumed he made something from that giant GB.  So what?

IMHO, it would seem quite normal to ask for-profit sellers to offer a tithe to the forum (cost of entry for a vendor spot).  Would that calm everyone down?  At least that is productive.  All this negativity isn't cool, man

If the guy pulled shady crap with you then don't buy from him.  Simple as that.  I like my keys, though.  I got them second hand.  Cost WAY more.

[aeta]

To put in perspective, I would prefer paying Rag's markup then paying the markup of a secondhand clickclack when the seller honestly does not have to provide any service at all.

[Soarer]

Tiered pricing and profit markup by themselves have nothing to do with each other.  Since you are confused between them, attempted to ask me this totally unrelated question, pretending to know what you are talking about, and have not been able to explain how your random question is related to SP selling this red mod set for $18 while Rag has been selling them for $30, let me explain them to you.

No, I am not confused about anything.

You appear to be utterly confused about how SP's tiered pricing affects group buys, and therefore you consider my question 'unrelated'.

I think your mistake is that you are simply looking at the price per set. Saying that Rag makes $12 profit of each set, and pointing at the $18 vs $30 price, isn't telling the whole story about running a group buy... that's what my question was getting at.

Say you have a group buy that reaches 120 orders, then you have only reached the 100-tier.

But, whaddya know, the total amount is enough to buy 200 sets at the 200-tier pricing.

At this point, this isn't profit... it's free keycaps.

Now 80 / 120 cannot be divided fairly, so you cannot simply share the keycaps around.

The organizer could...

• Ask SP to make only 120. Effectively throwing away 80. That's not sensible.
• Reduce the price of the GB. But by how much? The full discount would not be sensible, because all the extras might not sell.
• Keep GB price the same. Sell extras and make profit. That's not fair in your view, but no-one has been ripped off, because the GB only made the 100-tier pricing.

If it were me, I might try and guess how many sets would easily sell, and reduce the GB price by about that amount. But, in my hypothetical scenario, that might only reduce the price by a couple of dollars, and you probably wouldn't find that fair either.

You have to remember that any discount comes out of the organizers pocket, and at that point they would be investing in something that is not likely to sell quickly. After all, almost everyone who wanted them would've just bought them in the GB.

Thing is, this pricing problem is common to all GBs from SP (except probably 7bit's mega-GBs), so I don't see why you're singling Rag out. But then, I also can't see how anyone would take the comment about SP going bust and Melissa getting fired literally, so maybe that explains it.

Question for you, Soarer, how much would you sell them for if you bought these sets from SP for $18 a set?  What's the right answer?  Now that is a relevant question to this thread, which is about selling a set of keycaps for $30 when the manufacturer sells them direct to customers at $18.

Since that is the same question that I asked you, only reworded into terms of price-per-set, how is your version relevant and mine not?! Mine is the relevant version, as explained above.

[litster]

Soarer, you don't get it, do you?  These red mod keys were mistakes.  They were wrongly made.  They were going to the scrap pile because they are not what Rag originally ordered.  After the group buy order was finally fixed by SP, these wrongly made, left over keycaps were offered to Rag at a discount.  Same thing happened to other group buys.  When mistakes were made, SP fixes the mistakes and offer the organizer to either buy the wrongly made keys at a discount or send them back to SP.  If the organizer send them back, SP can either sell them like they are doing with these red mod sets, dump all of them in a pile to recycle the plastic, or sell them by bagful like they did with the infamous grab bags sale.

If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.

[xJaPx]

I think the main problems they have with rag is 1) lying and 2) doing GBs which defaults most risk to buyers vs beying a vendor where he would take the brunt of the risk(issue due to the fact that he makes $$ off them) and 3) his first impression here wasnt the greatest. (All from observstion, im too knew to be fully biased, lol)

Im still confused as to the crazy person setting SPs tier prices.  It seems pretty illogical to make 120 sets and 200 sets be the same price.  They need to rethink their tiers(unless you've been using that as a hypothetical soarer, in which case its a bad example).

[Soarer]

Soarer, you don't get it, do you?  These red mod keys were mistakes.  They were wrongly made.  They were going to the scrap pile because they are not what Rag originally ordered.  After the group buy order was finally fixed by SP, these wrongly made, left over keycaps were offered to Rag at a discount.  Same thing happened to other group buys.  When mistakes were made, SP fixes the mistakes and offer the organizer to either buy the wrongly made keys at a discount or send them back to SP.  If the organizer send them back, SP can either sell them like they are doing with these red mod sets, dump all of them in a pile to recycle the plastic, or sell them by bagful like they did with the infamous grab bags sale.

If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.

Oh, I get it. Very clearly. When you lose the argument over one piece of this, you simply turn to another!

That these were wrongly made is irrelevant to the prices that Rag buys or sells at.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but when you said...

No need to pay jacked up prices and cover someone else's rent.  If you paid too much, you should ask for a refund.

Now you know how much it is marked up here by rag.

... you were not taking about Rag making profit because they were wrongly made.

[litster]

I give you too much credit thinking you might have a chance to understand it. 

[Soarer]

I think the main problems they have with rag is 1) lying and 2) doing GBs which defaults most risk to buyers vs beying a vendor where he would take the brunt of the risk(issue due to the fact that he makes $$ off them) and 3) his first impression here wasnt the greatest. (All from observstion, im too knew to be fully biased, lol)

1) He didn't lie. He used hyperbole.
2) That's pretty much the problem that is common to all SP GBs, isn't it?
3) Quite possibly. That doesn't excuse baseless accusations though.

Im still confused as to the crazy person setting SPs tier prices.  It seems pretty illogical to make 120 sets and 200 sets be the same price.  They need to rethink their tiers(unless you've been using that as a hypothetical soarer, in which case its a bad example).

I have pulled those numbers from my butt, I'm afraid. They are very close to stupidity of the real numbers though, as in, the next tier is usually within about 20%. In some cases I think the real numbers are actually even more crazy!

[Soarer]

I give you too much credit thinking you might have a chance to understand it. 

You could at least try to explain the link between your vendetta and the wrongly made keycaps, if only for the audience's benefit.

[litster]

please, tell me which price tier the red mod sets are at for them to be sold at $18 and $30.

[Soarer]

please, tell me which price tier the red mod sets are at for them to be sold at $18 and $30.

Since you're the one making accusations, why don't you tell us?

It's not relevant to whether these were wrongly made or not.

It's not relevant whether it's 100-tier and 200-tier, or 250-tier and 500-tier. The principle is the same.

It doesn't change either side of this argument.

[litster]

haha, you can't, because they are orthogonal to each other.  There are no tiers in these keycaps.

[Soarer]

haha, you can't, because they are orthogonal to each other.  There are no tiers in these keycaps.

You are being ridiculous. Of course there is a tier that's roughly $30. Presumably the tier below the one that's $18.

Since your whole argument rests on tiers...

Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group.  He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount *and* additional stock so he can sell them after the GB is closed.

[litster]

you are showing your ignorance.  You don't know what you are talking about.  You are embarrassing yourself.  Still love you PS/2->USB convertor though.  That I give you a thumbs up.  But not the nonsense you are spilling here.

[Soarer]

you are showing your ignorance.  You don't know what you are talking about.  You are embarrassing yourself.  Still love you PS/2->USB convertor though.  That I give you a thumbs up.  But not the nonsense you are spilling here.

QFT!

Sorry folks, show's over! I'm not going to lower myself to throwing insults around.

Love the Phantom though. Still not sure who does what on that, but good job for making it a reality.

[Mugen]

Ordered a set. cant say no to this price...

[Alessandro]

Ok everyone! Please!

Can we just enjoy the fact that this is a great find, and also a great set. Thank you very much litster! I'll be sure to order a few things.

[Soarer]

Sure you can... just pay SP the $18 + postage, and enjoy!

Seriously, I mean that. I really would be being ridiculous if I was complaining about the find itself.

[Soarer]

Now then, where were we?

you are showing your ignorance.  You don't know what you are talking about.  You are embarrassing yourself.  Still love you PS/2->USB convertor though.  That I give you a thumbs up.  But not the nonsense you are spilling here.

Talking of nonsense... let's see how many of your 'facts' stand up...

Yup, you are right I don't have the facts of the exact transaction between Rag and SP.  But I know these:

At 200 keycap tier, SP charges:
1x @ $0.95 each
1.25x 1.5x, 1.75x @ $1.24 each
2x @ $1.27 each
2.25x 2.75x @ $1.89 each

At 250 keycap tier, SP charges:
1x @ $0.71 each
1.25x 1.5x, 1.75x @ $1.14 each
2x @ $1.17 each
2.25x 2.75x @ $1.79 each

- These prices includes SP's COGs and production cost and profit margin
- In his Red Alert thread, he claimed that the modifier set only reached the 100 set tier. 
- At least 200 sets and possibly 250 sets of these red mods were made.

So essentially all you are saying there is that he ordered the next tier up.

When I wrote a post about handling tiered pricing, you didn't give any sensible comment on it.

- He made up a story about how Melissa at SP made this mistake of making the red modifiers incorrectly and she may lose her job to get more people to buy the left over caps, but it was not true

Clearly there's no question that 'Melissa at SP made this mistake of making the red modifiers incorrectly', because she did.

What Rag actually said was "That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired.", which is clearly hyperbole. Anyone taking that literally and calling him a liar can only be doing so deliberately to make trouble.

- He said he is going to give the profit back to SP but has not said how much
- He said he is going to give the profit back to SP but has not said when

After the attack you and the mob launched on him, it's hardly surprising he hasn't said anything more about it.
Clearly, since those comments were about the wrongly made keys, his decision was simply to send them back.
So those points are moot.

- SP is selling the same set for $18 that Rag has been selling them for $30
- Rag has said he makes enough money from group buys to pay for his rent

This is all about tiered pricing again, and how an organizer should deal with it.

- You assert that at $18 is selling them below cost
- You assert that Rag could have bought them at more than $30/set and is selling them at a loss

I did not 'assert' any such things. My point was that you did not know exactly what he paid, or what SP's cost was.

- I assert that he bought them for around the same price that SP is selling them at $18, if not lower, and is selling them at $30/set
- I assert that he makes $12 profit or more for each set he sells

Only IF he sells them ALL. You are counting his chickens before they are hatched.

Essentially though, this is just about handling tiered pricing again.

We can draw our own conclusion.

Sure we can. Our definitions of 'group buy' are clearly slightly different, for a start.

Yours was:

Group buy: a large group of people get together, PAY IN ADVANCE, to get a a lower price.  The group shares the risks, organizers volunteer their time to organize and try to break even get a few free keys.

To which you later add that organizers should largely not profit. (I've paraphrased that part, correct me if I'm wrong).

My definition is simply as the quote there, without any further qualification.
The point is to get something AT A LOWER PRICE.

Getting a modifier set at $30 is definitely far less than it would cost to buy a single set from SP (of course, I mean in cases where they don't screw up and make 200 more by mistake). So as far as I'm concerned, it passes my 'group buy' definition just fine.

It is good when organizers are open about costs, and tiers, etc. Then there's no question of anyone being misled. But frankly when there's an attack mob roaming around they are far less likely to.

My problem with rag has nothing to do with him making money, but that he lied to make money, and he uses GB as a screen to profit.  GB is supposed to be a a group of people pitching in to get a better buying power.  In Rag's GBs, he uses the group's money to fund his GB, and he makes the profit without fronting any money. 

Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group.  He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount *and* additional stock so he can sell them after the GB is closed.  Not only that, he sells the extra stock at even higher prices to make even more money.  He is taking advantage of the community.  While other people are doing it the fair way, they open up a vendor forum without hiding behind "Group Buys".  What is worse is he lied to the community how Melissa was going to get fired if he doesn't sell the wrong color keycaps.

There are so many inconsistencies in this attack that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, he didn't lie about Melissa. You just want to portray it that way.

You say "Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group".
This isn't true, since SP's tiered pricing makes it almost unavoidable - if you have 10% or 20% over one tier, it's almost free to get the keycaps at the next tier. No-one is being duped. It doesn't work to share the discount with the group. Again, see my tiered pricing post.

Then you say: "he makes the profit without fronting any money" and also "He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount".
Clearly these cannot both be true.

You probably haven't read this far before typing yet another 'Soarer is showing his ignorance' post. But, here's a surprise, you're right! I still do not understand...

... how any of what you've said above justifies your vendetta, since the tiered pricing makes it prectically impossible for anyone to avoid such criticism.

... how any of what you've said above explains your vendetta, since others do similar and you leave them alone.

... how, taken alone, Rag's open discussion of possible ways to handle the SP mistake drew so much fire, so immediately.

Which leaves me guessing that maybe you just want to harm his efforts in any way you can because of what transpired in his first few posts. Hell, I wouldn't even argue against that, if you only had the balls to admit it!

Or maybe there is some other piece of the puzzle that I've missed. I can't imagine it being anything directly related to Rag's GB in some way though, else you would've mentioned it by now. And I can't imagine it's only about his handling of tiered pricing, or you would've answered my question about how to deal with it fairly, and proposed a better option.

There is one part of the pricing that I've missed out so far. Going with the previous hypothetical '120 orders costing the same as 200' example, if there are more than 120 orders then some discount can be passed to the buyers straight away, at no risk to the organizer.

The bottom line is that for your vendetta to be justified, you'd have to show that the price was unfair even when ignoring the free or cheap keycaps that come from moving up to a tier above the ordered quantity. Otherwise you are really just complaining about SP's tiered pricing, and demanding that organizers take a risk, which isn't fair, or throw the extras away, which is stupid.

[OrangeJewce]

I think I've made my point.

My point exactly.

Lister,

The fallacy in your argument is retroactively calling rag's price a significant "markup", when someone introduces the exact same thing on the market for less. Your math in an earlier post was incorrect (way back at the top you failed to calculate cost of a set which would have been near the $30 mark) By your math the 33 keys which make up the modifier set would cost ~$24. And yet you still claim that the $30 mark is clearly a sign of profiteering when the truth is SP is selling these extra sets at a significant loss. But you can keep claiming you understand the inner workings of SP's pricing decisions all you want.

Your assertions:

- I assert that he bought them for around the same price that SP is selling them at $18, if not lower, and is selling them at $30/set
- I assert that he makes $12 profit or more for each set he sells

Are both wrong. 1) It costs more than $18 to manufacture a set. 2) You have no idea what Rag paid for his sets. So stop with the crap that you know those two things when you don't. Get something from SP in writing that it costs less than $18 to them per set, and some real evidence as to how much Rag paid, and maybe then I'll respect your argument.

Cheers,

[Soarer]

Your assertions:

- I assert that he bought them for around the same price that SP is selling them at $18, if not lower, and is selling them at $30/set
- I assert that he makes $12 profit or more for each set he sells

Are both wrong. 1) It costs more than $18 to manufacture a set. 2) You have no idea what Rag paid for his sets. So stop with the crap that you know those two things when you don't. Get something from SP in writing that it costs less than $18 to them per set, and some real evidence as to how much Rag paid, and maybe then I'll respect your argument.

Actually, those could be about right. Pricing for standard-ish sets is cheaper than simply adding up the single key prices, I believe. Maybe the $30 is the 100x price, and the $18 is the 200x price, or something along those lines.

It still doesn't mean that an organizer HAS to sell them at $18 if only 100 or so people signed up to the group buy. That would mean he'd be forced to buy nearly 100 sets at $18 each, which is no small sum.

(The numbers in my previous post might not be 100% accurate, but they are certainly sufficiently accurate for this debate).

Seeing as litster is so determined to paint Rag as a crook, maybe he'd care to back that up and explain which tiers he thinks are involved.

[OrangeJewce]

Your assertions:

- I assert that he bought them for around the same price that SP is selling them at $18, if not lower, and is selling them at $30/set
- I assert that he makes $12 profit or more for each set he sells

Are both wrong. 1) It costs more than $18 to manufacture a set. 2) You have no idea what Rag paid for his sets. So stop with the crap that you know those two things when you don't. Get something from SP in writing that it costs less than $18 to them per set, and some real evidence as to how much Rag paid, and maybe then I'll respect your argument.

Actually, those could be about right. Pricing for standard-ish sets is cheaper than simply adding up the single key prices, I believe. Maybe the $30 is the 100x price, and the $18 is the 200x price, or something along those lines.

It still doesn't mean that an organizer HAS to sell them at $18 if only 100 or so people signed up to the group buy. That would mean he'd be forced to buy nearly 100 sets at $18 each, which is no small sum.

(The numbers in my previous post might not be 100% accurate, but they are certainly sufficiently accurate for this debate).

Seeing as litster is so determined to paint Rag as a crook, maybe he'd care to back that up and explain which tiers he thinks are involved.

I used lister's numbers. If those are wrong then poo on me.

But for the higher teir on his numbers I gor $24 a set.

Regardless, I'm done here.

Cheers,

[Soarer]

I used lister's numbers. If those are wrong then poo on me.

But for the higher teir on his numbers I gor $24 a set.

Regardless, I'm done here.

Cheers,

Sorry, I didn't mean to poo on you, if that's what you mean

It's litster who should be spelling it out for us, rather than just pointing at $18 and $30 and shouting crook. It's not enough info to pass judgment on, and nor does it explain why he seems to think it's significantly different to any other SP GB.

[Ragnorock]

When I get home and back to my computer, I will shine some light on this discussion in the form of facts. Until then, you can blacme demik, litster, mkawa, and sth for the markup, it is entirely their fault that everyone, leftovers and those that were in the group buy, didn't pay $20 per set. I don't have the time to read and address the rest of the bs in this thread via my phone.

[IvanIvanovich]

Price tiers are pain to deal with. Yes, it is totally possible to collect X amount to purchase Y quantity. But then you could just go and say I have X money, what is the maximum number of keys I can buy? The answer could be triple, sextuple, or whatever over the original quantity collected for. So for example in that scenario, most people are not going to go look guys, you ordered X sets, but I was able to secure Z sets at the same price, so your order has been automatically tripled, have fun selling all these extra sets you did'nt ask for. We could all start doing it this way, but how many people will be happy with this arrangement either?
Organizer could give money back to the original investors after selling all the extras. But then this is becoming a buisiness venture this way, and I really don't see this happening either for a number of reasons, but I would like to see what happens if this was attempted.

[demik]

Yup. We twisted your arm to put money in your pocket.

Like how we also twisted your arm to lie about Melissa getting fired. And how we twisted your arm to leave out the fact you were going to get a cut from the "let's save Melissa's job" sale.

All our fault.

Go **** yourself Rag.

We sit there and make you buy up to the next price tier so you can pocket the savings, buy extras and double the price. We hate you so much we make you take advantage of people. Lit's mission is to make you pay your rent! What a ****ing scumbag right?

[Soarer]

... so your order has been automatically tripled, have fun selling all these extra sets you did'nt ask for. ...

If only it was doubled or tripled, that would be nice and easy to divvy up. It's usually more like 40$, 50% or 60%. Sometimes more, but never doubled... never even close enough to doubled to make it a no-brainer. It has been tried at least once - the offer was something like "X costs $25, but for a mere $10 more you could have two X"... and there were very few takers.

[Soarer]

Yup. We twisted your arm to put money in your pocket.

Like how we also twisted your arm to lie about Melissa getting fired. And how we twisted your arm to leave out the fact you were going to get a cut from the "let's save Melissa's job" sale.

All our fault.

Go **** yourself Rag.

If you can't make your point while remaining civil, it doesn't warrant reading.

Besides which, you're simply repeating nonsense that I've been arguing with litster over, and he hasn't done a great job of defending his position.

Did you step in and help litster out? Did you hell, you were quite happy to watch him fall into a loop of saying that I "don't understand".

Jumping on "That way SP stays in business and Melissa doesn't get fired." and calling it a lie is just plain dishonest on your part. I do not believe for a second that you took that sentence seriously at any point, apart from to use it as ammo in your vendetta.

And yeah, I remember Rag's original post from that thread. It very clearly said that all the details still had to be worked out, which meant it was just a proposal. But no, it suited you lot to take it as gospel truth, and lay into every facet of it that you could from the moment he posted it.

For all I know Rag might've had dishonorable intentions. I never found out, because you lot just shot first and didn't even look back.

And for all that I've challenged litster, he hasn't provided anything like enough real facts to pass judgement on Rag. However, there's plenty enough facts to pass judgment on you and your mob.

[demik]

qq

Why would I not take it as truth? SP constantly messes up, and this time it was a big mess up.

But I guess, if you didn't take it as "gospel" none of us should, right?

If it doesn't warrant reading, skip it and don't reply to me.

[demik]

Yeah, that's it. Not going to sit here and explain myself to a screen name whose opinion I don't care for.

[Soarer]

qq

Oh, grow up.

Why would I not take it as truth? SP constantly messes up, and this time it was a big mess up.

But I guess, if you didn't take it as "gospel" none of us should, right?

If it doesn't warrant reading, skip it and don't reply to me.

You really think a $2k mess-up might put them out of business? I don't believe you.
I suppose you've never come across hyperbole before either.

[demik]

Nope, a 2k mess up wouldn't put SP out of business (nice little sob story on Rag's part).

Could constant messing up from one person get said person fired? Yes, that's possible.

But silly me, Soared didn't believe it so why should I? Next time I'm told something I'll double check with you if I should believe it or not.

Actually, no, I won't.

But I'm done with this. You can sit there and keep going at it with Lit. Rag can come in here and try to justify his 12 dollar mark up by blaming me, kawa, sth and lit. All of you will eat it up because he will make himself look like a martyr.

I honestly do not care anymore. Nothing I say will keep him from doing what he does. Nothing I say will stop people from paying him for stuff others do FOR the community. Nothing I say will keep him from lying and nickel and diming. So, why bother?

I'm officially done with anything that has to do with Rag.

[sth]

Nobody sane thought SP would go out of business, that's ridiculous Soarer. You know what else is ridiculous?
What is ridiculous is Ragnorock 'hyperbolizing' that to make more sales so he can profit from others' mistakes.
What is ridiculous is that he has taken a model for community buying designed to save money and turned it into a profit machine that benefits only one person.
What is ridiculous is that people who have spent nearly no time (less than a month) on the board excusing this behavior because they'd rather get shiny plastic toys than foster a sense of community.
What is ridiculous is that Ragnorock is a known, proven scammer (need I bring up the realforce again?).
What is ridiculous is now, Ragnorock is blaming the people who call him out on his bull**** for his price increases (however facetiously, that is absolutely no way for any person, let alone a businessperson, to act, period).
What is ridiculous is that he hasn't shown himself the door, denying himself and his reputation any chance to retain a shred of dignity.

Please go back to deskthority if you want to ***** about geekhack's community. I know you are OG Gramps around the keyboard community, and you have done a ****load of work for the public (which is very appreciated, don't get me wrong), which is why I can't fathom how you can defend Ragnorock's utter lack of humility and shame.

footnote: i really hate seeing this **** when i wake up. can we all just go back to being interested in keyboards for keyboards' sake yet?

[Soarer]

Nope, a 2k mess up wouldn't put SP out of business (nice little sob story on Rag's part).

Could constant messing up from one person get said person fired? Yes, that's possible.

But silly me, Soared didn't believe it so why should I? Next time I'm told something I'll double check with you if I should believe it or not.

Actually, no, I won't.

LOL. Clearly you can make your own mind up. By your own words, there's nothing dishonest about what Rag said about SP and Melissa. It's just how you choose to interpret it. We know SP make lots of mistakes, and that's surely not good for their profit or anyone's job security. Did we at some point discover that even with the mistakes they are all driving Lambos? No.

But as you admit, you clearly understand that one 2k mess-up won't put them out of business. So why tack that 'nice little sob story' comment on the end of that line? That's where you're being dishonest, making out that Rag meant it in that way, when you never took it that way.

[Alessandro]

I think we've heard enough. Now can you please let Demik, sth and litster get back to helping the community here? It's what they do best...

[Soarer]

Nobody sane thought SP would go out of business, that's ridiculous Soarer. You know what else is ridiculous?
What is ridiculous is Ragnorock 'hyperbolizing' that to make more sales so he can profit from others' mistakes.
What is ridiculous is that he has taken a model for community buying designed to save money and turned it into a profit machine that benefits only one person.
What is ridiculous is that people who have spent nearly no time (less than a month) on the board excusing this behavior because they'd rather get shiny plastic toys than foster a sense of community.
What is ridiculous is that Ragnorock is a known, proven scammer (need I bring up the realforce again?).
What is ridiculous is now, Ragnorock is blaming the people who call him out on his bull**** for his price increases (however facetiously, that is absolutely no way for any person, let alone a businessperson, to act, period).
What is ridiculous is that he hasn't shown himself the door, denying himself and his reputation any chance to retain a shred of dignity.

Please go back to deskthority if you want to ***** about geekhack's community. I know you are OG Gramps around the keyboard community, and you have done a ****load of work for the public (which is very appreciated, don't get me wrong), which is why I can't fathom how you can defend Ragnorock's utter lack of humility and shame.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I am not necessarily defending Rag; I am attacking a vendetta. It is an ugly thing. As you say, stuff from the past seems equally as important to you lot as this stuff about the mistakes and general GB pricing. What I don't like seeing is everything he does getting attacked, even when you wouldn't attack someone else for doing the exact same thing. I want to break this down to figure out which might be valid complaints, and which aren't. At the moment it just looks like you're all throwing as much sh1t at him as you can, and seeing what sticks.

In other words, it's clear to me that at least some of the accusations are baseless. I haven't heard anything here that justifies accusing him of making a 'profit machine', for example, while not also attacking anyone else running a SP GB. If anyone can come up with proper facts and figures to support that, then I'll listen. Surely that should be easy since you are making the accusation, no?

You have to admit that the Shades of Red thread was a clusterfuk from the start, where because of previous encounters, some of you really didn't give him a chance to work out a sane plan for dealing with it.

[sth]

 the shades of red thread was deliberately cut out of the RA GB thread wherein which he was called out on the 'hyperbole' as you put it almost immediately after he posted it.

now that it is it's own thread most of the context is gone and it could easily appear to be something that it is and was not -- as i said, lifted directly from the GB thread.

if it appears that demik, litster and I (perhaps others, but we apparently are the most vocal about it) are attacking Rag, so be it. sometimes it gets frustrating saying the same thing over and over and being misinterpreted and challenged at every step, when it's all been laid on the table already. Ragnorock has a history of profiteering and scamming and I don't think it's right. I can't do anything about it but yell as loud as I can to everybody that can hear me, and I probably won't stop until he's banned or leaves of his own accord.

[Soarer]

the shades of red thread was deliberately cut out of the RA GB thread wherein which he was called out on the 'hyperbole' as you put it almost immediately after he posted it.

now that it is it's own thread most of the context is gone and it could easily appear to be something that it is and was not -- as i said, lifted directly from the GB thread.

if it appears that demik, litster and I (perhaps others, but we apparently are the most vocal about it) are attacking Rag, so be it. sometimes it gets frustrating saying the same thing over and over and being misinterpreted and challenged at every step, when it's all been laid on the table already. Ragnorock has a history of profiteering and scamming and I don't think it's right. I can't do anything about it but yell as loud as I can to everybody that can hear me, and I probably won't stop until he's banned or leaves of his own accord.

Exactly. Undemocratic mob rule. How is that not ugly?

You can do more than yell. You can justify why you're yelling. You'd only have to do it once, and then link to it.

But it had better be a bloody good justification, because it will be challenged otherwise.

If he's really that much of a crook, lay it out to iMav and get him banned. If iMav says no, you really should shut up about it.

[sth]

you make a dangerous jump to mob rule, and a dangerous assumption that democracy solves problems, but those are subjects for other discussions.

imav and the rest of the moderation team have clearly stated that they won't get involved, either through their rules (caveat emptor) or through inaction. doesn't make it right.

please don't tell me to shut up.

[Soarer]

How can "... and I probably won't stop until he's banned or leaves of his own accord." possibly not be mob rule, when that's clearly that tactic that a number of you are using as a group?!

So, the moderators have spoken. That doesn't make your mob rule right either, quite the opposite.

[sth]

i will not stop pointing out the bull****. i have no power to do anything but that. half the people on geekhack already probably think i'm annoying for other reasons. i'm not trying to win anybody over or start a revolt (i think deskthority did that fine on its own and i have no intention of emulating deskthority or its heavily active members).

i dont understand what your problem with me is. do you disagree that group buys should be run for community benefit when members are the ones ponying up for (effectively) a bridge loan? do you disagree that utilizing geekhack as an infrastructure for communication and as a base of customers means that somebody who is profiting is profiting off of something that others worked very hard to put in place and maintain? do you disagree that people that lie and at least attempt to steal should be called out for their lies?

i feel like this discussion is going nowhere because you're not trying to solve any problems. you're just trying to nitpick and misdirect to keep people from\ talking and i don't think that's productive. i don't get the mob rule accusations when it's three or four people that you're talking about over a userbase of thousands, with at least hundreds active. the moderators have not spoken because they (unfortunately, i believe) leave these discussions up to the member base. that's where we come in. not pointing out this **** is just going to let the market continue to decline.

i'm not saying GH is perfect. i'm not saying a lot of people in the kb community are perfect. i would never say that i am perfect. but i think it's wrong not to continue the discussion because you disagree with me or others. there has been a marked increase in cutthroat capitalism and profiteering on geekhack and it's not just ragnorock perpetrating it. i'd rather talk this through and solve the problem than jump ship and join another community that likes to ***** and whine just as much as we do. that was not meant to be a pointed statement soarer -- i just mean that i like geekhack and i want to stick around and see it grow and get better, not worse.

[Soarer]

I resent that you think I'm just doing this to nitpick and misdirect rather than solve problems. Although, since I see any vendetta as a problem, I can see why you don't agree. In case you hadn't noticed, a large part of my argument is trying to nail down what we might agree is... let's say "fair enough to live with", as far as dealing with SP's tiered pricing for GBs. Funnily enough, none of the 'mob' have actually offered any substantive thoughts on that subject.

What I have a problem with is accusations of profiteering, with little facts to back them up. And certainly no sane alternative ways to do it being offered. Without that, it all just seems to be whining with no consideration for the organizer's point of view. No offense. The best way to improve the market would be to run more keycap group buys in a 'model fashion', so that buyers know exactly what that looks like - transparent pricing, deals on tiers, etc. That, rather than shouting foul at every opportunity. Be constructive rather than destructive. It really doesn't surprise me that buyers generally ignore you lot, and 'overpay' (in your view) for the stuff they want. (And many of them are more informed about the pricing that you give them credit for).

[litster]

Rag, why don't you tell us how much you paid SP for those red mod sets that you are selling for $30 each?

[sth]

ok, i do apologize for that then. i didn't mean to say that your points are unimportant; merely that we appeared to have been discussing different angles of the issue.

it is rather clear to me that somebody who claims to pay rent with their profits must be ordering up price tiers to get discounts, and then selling the extras at the same or even inflated prices rather than passing on potential savings to the community. there is no other way to profit in this case. i would have no problem with that if the buyer or organizer was paying for that privilege out of pocket or at least covering the extra and paying up to meet certain minimums (much like i3oilermaker does with his group buys).
to our knowledge, ragnorock does no such thing with his group buys.  ragnorock has provided no proof to the contrary and has bragged about the profits he makes. i believe that this is dishonest and unbecoming behavior and it is detrimental to the community to allow such actions to go unannounced.

as far as people paying what they want -- i really don't care. what i do care about is ragnorock turning around and claiming that 'we' are driving his prices up in an attempt to demonize the people calling out his piss poor antisocial behavior. what i do care about is people defending him when they have little to no idea of how a group buy is supposed to work (because honestly if they did, they would have no reason to defend him for raising prices so high) and they would rather pay more money to get keycaps and then do **** all for the rest of the community. 

I don't claim to have contributed as much as you, or litster, or demik or anybody who has done nearly as much as that, but  i do participate in the community and i do offer my ideas and insights when they are requested in projects threads. i try to take a proactive approach here because i am interested in keyboards and i like most of the people on this board, small tiffles aside. i want to see geekhack continue to grow and to see new ideas prosper, not reward those who would come here to make a quick buck off the ignorant and well-paid.

[aggiejy]

Happened across this thread. 

First off... great deal on the modifier set from SP! Purchased! Frankly, I'd love to see SP offer more sets... they have a huge cost advantage over group buys.

Now...

I don't know many of you, haven't ordered from Rag, etc.  But Soarer makes some valid points and there's a lot of hate clouding some realities of group buy pricing.  I'm not active around here much on account of the bitterness, but I've thought about this topic quite a bit so I thought I'd share my story as it relates to some of what is being discussed...

I ran a group buy last year - it was RGB modifier sets.  Some of you probably remember... I think I sold most of the people posting here a set or two.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20058.0

I didn't start the group buy, there was already an interest check in progress from Noodles.  I just noticed that the proposed prices quoted were really high.  I had been working with Melissa on some personal projects (which didn't pan out) so had fresh pricing sheets.  I contacted Noodles and told him I thought he might have been given too high of pricing.  Anyway... long story short he told me to run it. 

I'm a busy guy with a family and pay my taxes from the top bracket.  I happen to love keyboards, but making a little money off a group buy isn't a draw.  But I'm also a capitalist... I'm not ashamed to take a profit.  I checked with iMav before I got started to make sure there wasn't rules about "absolutely no profit" group buys.  Why?  Not because I was looking to make a profit, but because it's hard *not* to if you also want to make sure you don't lose money.

When I took over the group buy, I decided I wanted to run it like I wish all group buys were run.  These pricing tiers and endless timelines make most group buys drag on forever and they end up more expensive because of lack of interest at the low quantity creates a first-mover problem.  I don't have the exact numbers, but when I took it over we had about 50 or so sets that people said they'd buy at ~$28.  So... as I said, I wanted to set one price, a short deadline, and get it done.  As I was calculating costs, I realized that this is impossible to do without risk.  I knew setting the price lower would encourage more sales, but how much?  If I sold low and there were still not much more people that wanted them, I could be eating quite a bit of money.  If I sold for a high price, I could be taking too much money, and GH folks aren't getting a good deal (knowing they *could* be cheap). 

I ended up picking $13 a set.  Half the price of the previous estimate, but I'd be about $1k upside down from the start.  If sales didn't come in, I was up a creek.  If I sold a lot, then I'd break even.  But in order to price it at that, I had to buy at the next tier.  (I think it was 250 sets or so)  Well, the plan worked... better than expected.  A fixed price, clearly communicated, one week deadline, cheapest shipping I'd seen on a GH to that point... orders just poured in.  (TONS of compliments on a great run group buy, not one complaint.) I quickly realized I had a profit on my hands.  As Soarer mentioned... how do you make that fair?  You don't have enough extra keycaps to double people's order.  I don't like the idea of a lottery.  Only good idea I could think of was to order some glow in the dark keycaps and throw them in with each order.  But those didn't cost too much either.

I didn't sell them all in the first sale, but I stopped the sale at the deadline as promised.  I decided - to be fair to the original buyers - I wouldn't sell the extras until after the first orders were shipped. 

Now, it turned out that the first pass paid for most of the group buy.  The extras... those were mostly free to me.  So, what's the *right* thing to do with them?  After the deadline, I had tons of folks asking for the extras.  People wanted them.  I had sellers in China offer to buy them all and sell on Taobao. (which would have been a lot less work for me)  It would certainly have been wrong to the original sellers to sell the leftovers cheaper than the first orders.  To me, it would also have been wrong to sell them for more money.  So I sold them for the same price (minus the free glow caps):

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21586.0

Well, the extras sold really fast.  I shipped orders out the same or next day people ordered. 


In the end... I was relieved when it was over.  I spent a lot of time... way more than I thought it would take.  I was tired, I had been to the post office so many times they knew me by name.  I became an expert on scripting the forums to automatically update order status from my spreadsheet via ruby.  I dealt with a lot of PMs and emails and payment kerfunkles.  And PayPal *****ed at me for taking too many gifts.

And somehow, after all that, I had profited somewhere between $1-2k.  (Hard to say exactly as I sent some replacements, freebies, paid of supplies, stamps.com, etc)  I felt pretty bad actually about that, but frankly I probably gave up about $4k or more in billings over those weeks.  So I wasn't inclined to donate it to charity or anything. I obviously felt confident enough to gamble that I could sell twice the volume at half the price... but that could have backfired on me too and I was on the hook for the difference.

Anyway... this is not Rag's story, but the point is that there isn't a perfect way to do this.  You haven't seen me lining up to do it again... but I wish more people would.  I don't want to see members gouge other members, but being overly sensitive to markup in a group buy will only serve to produce fewer group buys.  If I weren't in a position to lose money, I probably would have priced them much higher and maybe made more profit.  It's the member's choice if they'd like to buy at a certain price.  And if someone is gouging, then feel free to start your own and undercut them.  (But know the risks you'll face trying to maintain low margins)  But, the community is benefited by having group buys.  Maybe they are profit centers in disguise, but they're still a good thing vs nothing at all.  $12 markup, if accurate, seems high.  But $30 for the set doesn't sound like a bad deal as a buyer... which is why they sold I guess. I see good points on both sides.

But, to Listers point... at a certain point if you're really paying your rent with group buys, perhaps you need to move to the vendor forums and front the cash and sell outright.  If I do something again, I'll probably do this.  On the flip side, the reason I haven't is because it wouldn't be as easy to promote it outside of the group buy forums.  Maybe that's a good thing, but you're not getting some really cool sets I've designed either.  I'd prefer to do a group buy.

Anyway... my 2 cents.

[sth]

You make a lot of really good points about the difficulties in running a group buy, but your last paragraph hits the nail on the head in regards to the topic at hand.

[yearn4]

i wonder if SP has spare spacebars this is essentially the cheapest moogle kit available right now!

[sth]

you can check their stock lists, they update from time to time. Make sure to the the part code before emailing melissa, she won't go look for it for you

[VesperSAINT]

..But I bought this set from Ragnarok for $40.80 bux shipped like 2 weeks back... As much as I was happy with my purchase... this kind of hurts... $40.80 might not be alot of money for some but I had to make a big decision to drop that kind of money on keycaps... and to see that all of a sudden they are being sold at about half the price......*sigh* I hope he'll say something about this...

[alaricljs]

aggie, you chose to run your buy like a vendor and that is admirable and I don't think anyone here can fault you for a profit.  You took the risk of not selling enough to cover cost but were obviously willing to eat it.

[sth]

..But I bought this set from Ragnarok for $40.80 bux shipped like 1.5 weeks back... As much as I was happy with my purchase... this kind of hurts... $40.80 might not be alot of money for some but I had to make a big decision to drop that kind of money on keycaps... and to see that all of a sudden they are being sold at about half the price......*sigh* I hope he'll say something about this...

he will blame it on me )

[VesperSAINT]

..But I bought this set from Ragnarok for $40.80 bux shipped like 1.5 weeks back... As much as I was happy with my purchase... this kind of hurts... $40.80 might not be alot of money for some but I had to make a big decision to drop that kind of money on keycaps... and to see that all of a sudden they are being sold at about half the price......*sigh* I hope he'll say something about this...

he will blame it on me )

I'm sorry but could you shine some light on me? I'm trying to read up on all this stuff that's going on about this but I can't see any clear solutions... Is this being taken care of or anything? I unfortunately haven't been on geekhack the past week and it seems I missed out... I hate to be this way but I honestly feel robbed right now... I paid double of what it's being sold at right now... and I only bought my set less than 2 weeks ago

[sth]

No, sorry, this whole thing is a cluster****... but basically I, along with a few others who can name themselves, called Rag out on some shady practices and he responded (in part) by claiming to raise prices because he was mad at us. I believe he was attempting to make a joke but since he won't explain his pricing to profit margin... you should take it up with Rag.

[VesperSAINT]

No, sorry, this whole thing is a cluster****... but basically I, along with a few others who can name themselves, called Rag out on some shady practices and he responded by claiming to raise prices because he was mad at us.

You should let Ragnorock know and wait for a reply. It should be... entertaining at best.

I will be sending him a PM after this, that's for sure. Having not done all the reading in that one thread, I will be polite and give him the benefit of the doubt but I truly hope he gives me some kind of discount or refund... Some may look at $40.80 as a small amount of money but I really had to think about it for a long time before dropping that kind of dough on keycaps

Do you know of anyone else who purchased at his price and had compromised with Ragnarok afterwards?

[sth]

i modified my post -- I came across in the wrong way I think I hope you can work something out.

[VesperSAINT]

i modified my post -- I came across in the wrong way I think I hope you can work something out.

Thanks for the clarification and response I would have been driven crazy if no one said anything. Lol.

[VesperSAINT]

UUUGGGGGHHHHH Now that the PM is sent... time for the waiting game..

[mickd]

Hey Sth, I just want to say these are the kinds of post I like seeing from people. I know you don't normally go into as much detail and sometimes aren't as polite to some newer members about this, but your posts this time showed a genuine attempt at a civilised discussion.. Respect.

Soarer and Aggie have both brought up some great points, and I will be following this discussion as it unfolds. As with others, I have my own opinions on this as well, but it's not anything that hasn't been said already by both sides. As a community if we can agree upon a compromise that is acceptable by everyone, the ideal model to follow, that would be great. We should definitely consider all these threads as a stepping stone. Until we all decide and agree what is acceptable and what isn't, nothing can really change. It's a challenging topic indeed.

One thing though Vesper. We don't yet know how much these sets cost Rag to keep. SP created them, and even at GB prices they would have a large margin of profit. $18 a set is a great price, and it may be a price that only SP can offer. Even if the original GB hit 500 sets, it still would have cost us $20 per set. We reached 100 sets at $27 per set. Say Rag bought up to the 200 set price, that's still $23 per set. I know these were mistake keys, and were thus offered at a discounted price. But since no one knows how much they were sold to him for, no one can really comment on it yet.

No one could also have predicted that SP would actually sell it themselves at such an affordable price (well at least I wouldn't have predicted it!)

[Soarer]

aggie, you chose to run your buy like a vendor and that is admirable and I don't think anyone here can fault you for a profit.  You took the risk of not selling enough to cover cost but were obviously willing to eat it.

It is admirable.

I don't believe it is right to demand all GBs be run that way though.

No, sorry, this whole thing is a cluster****... but basically I, along with a few others who can name themselves, called Rag out on some shady practices and he responded (in part) by claiming to raise prices because he was mad at us. I believe he was attempting to make a joke but since he won't explain his pricing to profit margin... you should take it up with Rag.

I don't know, but he might have been trying to say that if he had taken the mistaken batch that he would then have been able to reduce prices for the other orders as well. That never happened, and it's fair to say that it didn't happen because of the attacking that went on.

Look at it this way... IFF he is a crook THEN he will hang himself given enough rope. You and others are not giving him enough rope.

[VesperSAINT]

Hey Sth, I just want to say these are the kinds of post I like seeing from people. I know you don't normally go into as much detail and sometimes aren't as polite to some newer members about this, but your posts this time showed a genuine attempt at a civilised discussion.. Respect.

Soarer and Aggie have both brought up some great points, and I will be following this discussion as it unfolds. As with others, I have my own opinions on this as well, but it's not anything that hasn't been said already by both sides. As a community if we can agree upon a compromise that is acceptable by everyone, the ideal model to follow, that would be great. We should definitely consider all these threads as a stepping stone. Until we all decide and agree what is acceptable and what isn't, nothing can really change. It's a challenging topic indeed.

One thing though Vesper. We don't yet know how much these sets cost Rag to keep. SP created them, and even at GB prices they would have a large margin of profit. $18 a set is a great price, and it may be a price that only SP can offer. Even if the original GB hit 500 sets, it still would have cost us $20 per set. We reached 100 sets at $27 per set. Say Rag bought up to the 200 set price, that's still $23 per set. I know these were mistake keys, and were thus offered at a discounted price. But since no one knows how much they were sold to him for, no one can really comment on it yet.

No one could also have predicted that SP would actually sell it themselves at such an affordable price (well at least I wouldn't have predicted it!)

Thanks for the great reply, mickd! I honestly do not really understand the workings of a GB and I am very thankful for your simple explanation. However, even with that clarified, if one looks at it purely from a buyers' perspective, the price at which I bought at (2 weeks ago) compared to what it's being sold at now, is drastically different and I, personally, find it hard to accept! For many on this site, dropping large sums of money for keycaps is quite normal (sorry for the assumptions) but for someone like me who is not accustomed to spending such amounts on keycaps (I paid $40.80 shipped), the decision to do so was a big one. As a result, seeing that this keycap set is all of a sudden $20.00 cheaper is a huge shock to me, even more so because I've barely been able to use the keycaps (the mods are on my Rosewill reds which I use for gaming but haven't been able to game much past 2 weeks). It feels I bought them yesterday, which further exacerbates the issue at hand!

Please understand I am not accusing Ragnarok of anything (I don't even know the drama that's been going on) but more that I am just complaining as a buyer of his items, without the influence of others' opinions. I only ask nicely and hopefully for his consideration and services,as a respectful seller on this site. My opinions are open to change depending on his response, of course ^^;;

[Soarer]

mickd, yes, some more facts behind the pricing is really essential for this debate to progress in any useful way.

This is the claim made...

Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group.  He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount *and* additional stock so he can sell them after the GB is closed.  Not only that, he sells the extra stock at even higher prices to make even more money.

Now, the first part of that could mean that Rag was charging buyers at a lower tier than the number of orders that actually came in, OR it could mean he charged them at the tier they reached.

Actually knowing which it was is critical to whether I'd consider his pricing 'fair enough' not to warrant attack.

[sth]

As a community if we can agree upon a compromise that is acceptable by everyone, the ideal model to follow, that would be great. We should definitely consider all these threads as a stepping stone. Until we all decide and agree what is acceptable and what isn't, nothing can really change. It's a challenging topic indeed.

i like this direction. honestly i don't want to be posting about people being shady on geekhack because what i really want is for there not to be shady dealings on geekhack. hopefully we can come to some compromise about how group buys should be moving forward. it might be prudent to include those sellers who run group buys and also run their own stores to get their take on the profit + low cost + benefit to the community points.

[reaper]

I will be sending him a PM after this, that's for sure. I will be polite and give him the benefit of the doubt but I truly hope he gives me some kind of discount or refund.

I highly doubt that this will ever happen because if he were to refund you then he would have to refund the rest of the people who paid more than $18 plus shipping.  That's a lot of money to lose on Rag's part.  I've pm'd him already and his respond didn't give me much hope that we will be getting any sort of refund soon. lol

[jdcarpe]

I wouldn't think Ragnorock would be inclined to give anyone any refunds for sets they purchased and received, and here's why:

1. The people who participated in his GB agreed to buy the red modifier sets at a certain price ($30 based on SP's pricing tier). People paid their invoice, Rag ordered the sets, the sets were delivered to Rag, and Rag shipped out the sets to his customers.

2. Ancillary to Rag's GB, SP screwed up and made too many red modifier sets (overrun). SP now has all these overrun sets and is looking to offload them cheaply and quickly, rather than scrap them. They are selling them for $18 plus shipping. SP can sell these at whatever price they wish, since they made the sets in error, and they are simply looking to recoup some of their loss, rather than writing off the entire overrun.

I can tell you that these keys are being offered at a deep discount over what SP usually charges for overrun keys. I have purchased several overrun keys from recent GB's directly from SP, at a cost of $2.50 per key, plus shipping.

[fydo]

Hello! As my first post I just wanted to thank OP for this thread.
I just ordered a Red Modifier Set along with some clear blank keycaps from SP. 

[DanGWanG]

Hello! As my first post I just wanted to thank OP for this thread.
I just ordered a Red Modifier Set along with some clear blank keycaps from SP. 

Welcome to Geekhack =)

[rowdy]

Hello! As my first post I just wanted to thank OP for this thread.
I just ordered a Red Modifier Set along with some clear blank keycaps from SP. 

Welcome to Geekhack!

A little unfortunate, perhaps, that you have come in on this long and bitter thread.

[VesperSAINT]

I will be sending him a PM after this, that's for sure. I will be polite and give him the benefit of the doubt but I truly hope he gives me some kind of discount or refund.

I highly doubt that this will ever happen because if he were to refund you then he would have to refund the rest of the people who paid more than $18 plus shipping.  That's a lot of money to lose on Rag's part.  I've pm'd him already and his respond didn't give me much hope that we will be getting any sort of refund soon. lol

I wouldn't think Ragnorock would be inclined to give anyone any refunds for sets they purchased and received, and here's why:

1. The people who participated in his GB agreed to buy the red modifier sets at a certain price ($30 based on SP's pricing tier). People paid their invoice, Rag ordered the sets, the sets were delivered to Rag, and Rag shipped out the sets to his customers.

2. Ancillary to Rag's GB, SP screwed up and made too many red modifier sets (overrun). SP now has all these overrun sets and is looking to offload them cheaply and quickly, rather than scrap them. They are selling them for $18 plus shipping. SP can sell these at whatever price they wish, since they made the sets in error, and they are simply looking to recoup some of their loss, rather than writing off the entire overrun.

I can tell you that these keys are being offered at a deep discount over what SP usually charges for overrun keys. I have purchased several overrun keys from recent GB's directly from SP, at a cost of $2.50 per key, plus shipping.

Yeah, I'm not really expecting a refund but more so a compromise of some sort and an explanation from him, personally. I have yet to hear back from him (PM'd him yesterday). Like I said in previous posts, I'm not coming from all that drama that's been going on but more so just a simple complaint as a buyer of his items. Thanks for all the awesome replies though, guys!

[Ragnorock]

I will address everything when I can, school comes first guys. There's a lot to say here and I haven't had time to write that essay yet.

[rayuki]

No, sorry, this whole thing is a cluster****... but basically I, along with a few others who can name themselves, called Rag out on some shady practices and he responded (in part) by claiming to raise prices because he was mad at us. I believe he was attempting to make a joke but since he won't explain his pricing to profit margin... you should take it up with Rag.

but in the end does it really matter what he charges or his reason? i didn't know there were rules on profit making here or anywhere else in the world, we live in a free market society. if he wants to make money from people and people are willing to buy what is the issue?

the only issue i can see is he doesn't do it as a vendor and just uses the group-buy way to do it. fair enough but if thats the issue make it clear and perhaps get a ruling that people doing group-buys shouldn't be in it to make a profit and if they want to make a profit become a vendor.

also without all the facts people are getting all pitchforky over nothing. it seems like its already been established that SP are selling these sets at a loss to get rid of them because they made to many, so without knowing how much rag actually paid its a bit ridiculous to be getting this worked up.

if it turns out he paid $27 for the set and is making $3 a set are you all still going to lose it?

where do you draw the line on what % of profit the group buy organiser takes before they should have to become a vendor?

[boost]

If only they had the tsang kits it would've been epic...

[Ragnorock]

Alright, lets start with some simple facts:


1. In the actual group buy, I received 126 red mod sets. I paid the group buy price for them, and bought 5 extras. Those were essentially all sold before the keycaps were sent to me, as preorders. There may have been 1 leftover but it doesn't really matter.


2. Signature plastics mistakenly sent me ~200 red mod sets, even now I'm not sure of the actual number because I was too busy getting orders out and sorting things to actually count everything.


3. I proposed a solution whereby I refund $7 to each person pre red mod kit who had bought in the group buy, and a larger refund to those who preordered leftovers, totaling nearly $1,000 in refunds. I would give that refund by liquidating the red mods on behalf of SP for $20 a kit. As those keys weren't mine, I would pay (an amount never determined but was supposed to be "their cost") SP for them, in installments as they sold. This, for some reason seemed shady to demik, Mkawa (who hasn't been trolling me since, need to make that clear) litster, and sth, and they threw up their pitchforks and got me to not do it. Their main concern stemmed from the undetermined potential for profit on my end if I managed to sell all 200 sets. At $20 they certainly would have sold fast at the outset, but I'm still doubtful I'd be able to sell them all. If not all of them were sold, it is likely that I would make nothing and potentially SP wouldn't even recoup all of the lost money from making them.


4. I never lied and said that Melissa would lose her job if my proposal was rejected. I was afraid she might, meaning I THOUGHT it was possible, but never spoke to her about whether she might be losing her job. I was, of course, mistaken. I never ever intended that statement to try and fearmonger people into accepting my proposed plan, no do I think, to this day, that the most obvious interpretation of it is that way. If I had spoken that in a conversation my hyperbole would have been much more clear. Again I am sorry for any confusion, as I typed that too hastily.


5. I bought 50 of the mistakenly made extra red mod kits, and paid about what SP is selling them for on their website. I would assume this could be close to their cost on making the set, but it certainly isn't my place to make assumptions on their profit margins. Its certainly also possible they're selling each set at a loss too, given the evidence from other mistaken sales. Regardless, those are all paid for and the leftovers have been sent back to SP, which they're now selling- obviously.


6. During the thread, I stated that in order to avoid giving a bunch of refunds and/or price discrimination, I would permanently lower the leftover price for the red mod kits from $40 to $35, which I later put on sale at $30 because they weren't selling. Remember at the time I set the price at $40 I had only 5 sets to sell, and I mentioned the price of the leftovers after preorders were done would be $40, but I only ever sold them at $35 due to the "preorder discount." Obviously since I had the option to buy more sets at a lower price I could no longer in good conscience sell them at the original price I had planned. However $35 was as low as I was willing to go because I didn't want to give everyone refunds.


7. Did I know that SP would eventually sell their sets? Yes. Did I know how much they would sell them for? No. Did I attempt to sway their price in any way to protect my markup? No. As of the time of this writing I still have 12 red mod kits unsold, totaling over $200 in "inventory" that I will no longer be able to make any margin on. Am I fine with that? Yes. I did see this coming. I will offer the remaining leftovers at $18 each plus shipping.


8. The obvious question that follows is what about everyone that paid $35 for their sets? Well I'm certainly not planning on offering mass refunds. Again if you want someone to blame for that, look at the list above in item #3. You see, if I refund everyone the difference or in full and you guys buy them from SP, you pay a lower cost than those that participated in the group buy. That isn't fair at all in my eyes, as those people are the ones that got these made in the first place.


9. So what am I doing with all the money I made off of selling the extra leftovers? Well I'm keeping some of it of course, but as of this moment I am planning on sending a $350 donation to Geekhack. I'm not sending that today because I have a bunch of bills and travelling to do over the next couple of weeks, but depleting the money I have sitting in my inventory would certainly help with that. Regardless, that is a commitment from me to do so, and it will happen sooner rather than later. If I don't do that I'm fine with being banned or w/e. If you guys want to do the math thats more than half of the money I've made off of selling the extras. I think that's pretty fair imo. I'm sure the Rag hate crew won't be satisfied until I donate every last dime I've made. XD


10. I am going to apply for a vendor subforum and start transitioning my services into more of a business form, as I have recognized the argument that the hate crew has been trying to make and I agree I should be in a vendor position. Again that will be done soon, when I have time, because with 17 credits of mostly senior and post graduate level classes, a wedding in Canada this weekend, and stuff that needs to be done for my other hobbies, I don't have much. Thus why my latest round of group buys have been delayed over a month. Never fear though, as I said previously, I've already bought the PBT keys from SP for the Imsto dyesub group buy, and they get here soon. I'm going to try and get that thread up next week, as well as the PBT full keysets.


11. I fully support you guys buying these keys from SP directly, it helps them recoup their losses and supports a great relationship our community has with their company. They've got ~150 to sell and I've got a dozen, and buying them from me only helps me make the donation sooner, so its up to you where you want the money to go.




Okay, so there's the rundown. I'm now going to address some quoted posts that fill in the gaps. Before all of that I'd like to thank everyone that voiced their support and defense of me, its what kept me from throwing in the towel. Its pretty hard to argue 4v1.

right, Rag bought them at $35 each from SP and sold them for $30 because he is a good guy. 


Yup, you are right I don't have the facts of the exact transaction between Rag and SP.  But I know these:


At 200 keycap tier, SP charges:
1x @ $0.95 each
1.25x 1.5x, 1.75x @ $1.24 each
2x @ $1.27 each
2.25x 2.75x @ $1.89 each


At 250 keycap tier, SP charges:
1x @ $0.71 each
1.25x 1.5x, 1.75x @ $1.14 each
2x @ $1.17 each
2.25x 2.75x @ $1.79 each


- These prices includes SP's COGs and production cost and profit margin
- In his Red Alert thread, he claimed that the modifier set only reached the 100 set tier. 
- At least 200 sets and possibly 250 sets of these red mods were made.
- He made up a story about how Melissa at SP made this mistake of making the red modifiers incorrectly and she may lose her job to get more people to buy the left over caps, but it was not true
- He said he is going to give the profit back to SP but has not said how much
- He said he is going to give the profit back to SP but has not said when
- SP is selling the same set for $18 that Rag has been selling them for $30
- Rag has said he makes enough money from group buys to pay for his rent


- You assert that at $18 is selling them below cost
- You assert that Rag could have bought them at more than $30/set and is selling them at a loss


- I assert that he bought them for around the same price that SP is selling them at $18, if not lower, and is selling them at $30/set
- I assert that he makes $12 profit or more for each set he sells
 
We can draw our own conclusion.

A) Lets go off of your 200 tier, since I'm totally sure that's what they used because you're always right. It does not include the price of the spacebar though, so we'll just go with $3.25 for it, a reasonable approximation.


19 1x keys @ $.95 = $18.05
9 1.25x,1.5x,1.75 keys @ $1.24 = $11.16
1 2x key @ $1.27 = $1.27
4 2.25x,2.75x keys @ $1.79 = $7.16
1 6.25x spacebar= $3.25 = $3.25


Total: $40.89


I think your numbers are bunk, because that's not even close to what they charge. When its a set its a completely different algorithm than individual keys. I don't know it, you don't, and pretending we do will only lead to bad assumptions and more drama. You're right in some of your assertions, as explained above, but a lot of it is bs too.

The purpose of GBs is to benefit the community.  You get to a point where the same money can get 50% more kit or whatever and you buy 50% more and hold a lottery.  98% of that 50% goes to randomly selected buyers, 2% you keep and do wtf.

We discussed this a long time ago after my first group buy, but I'm not a big fan of lotteries. Who do we determine is eligible? Group buy participants right? Well most of them have no use for another set, since most of them already have one or don't want one. If we open it up to anyone that enters, and it goes to someone that wasn't in the group buy the gets a free set without contributing to the group buy in any way. The buyup to the next price break does little more than subsidize leftovers purchased, and with the cost of full sets, its not that significant. This is another dead horse and I'm not going to discuss it further. Since I'm going to become a vendor leftovers make sense.




This next quote is too big to repost, but Soarer is nearly 100% accurate here and I think it deserves more recognition.
Re: Re: Red Modifier Set direct from SP for $18/set + shipping


I've come to the conclusion that the "Rag hate mafia" had previously discussed going after me and jumped on me the next chance they got, blowing a normal discussion about a proposal into a flamewar that has had them calling me a liar, cheat, pu$$y and many other derogatory terms that can only be interpreted as a personal attack- where it is no longer about keycaps as much as about ostracizing me. It has progressed to the point of where I no longer feel comfortable posting in most areas of the forum because they usually stalk my posts and reply to them with more slander and personal attacks. I've repeatedly asked the mods and admins about it with some success. Hopefully this post will alleviate as many of their problems with me as possible. I don't wish to do business with any of them at this point, but hopefully they can at least go after someone else for a change and leave me alone.

Nope, a 2k mess up wouldn't put SP out of business (nice little sob story on Rag's part).


Could constant messing up from one person get said person fired? Yes, that's possible.


But silly me, Soared didn't believe it so why should I? Next time I'm told something I'll double check with you if I should believe it or not.


Actually, no, I won't.


But I'm done with this. You can sit there and keep going at it with Lit. Rag can come in here and try to justify his 12 dollar mark up by blaming me, kawa, sth and lit. All of you will eat it up because he will make himself look like a martyr.


I honestly do not care anymore. Nothing I say will keep him from doing what he does. Nothing I say will stop people from paying him for stuff others do FOR the community. Nothing I say will keep him from lying and nickel and diming. So, why bother?


I'm officially done with anything that has to do with Rag.

Which is exactly why I was afraid she might get fired. There have been mistakes with the majority of the group buys we've had done, and every one of mine. At the time, though I haven't been keeping tabs on it since, basically every one of the last dozen orders needed some level of fixing. The red mods were a pretty expensive one, along with the mistaken portal keys, so I thought it was a pretty reasonable fear at the time. Obviously I was just panicking but I certainly wasn't lying or misleading anyone, you're just trying to paint me that way.


I'm exceptionally glad you're done, because I've been done with you for a while now. I wish you the best on your endeavours at getting in shape, from what you've said, it seems you need it.


Continued Below

[Ragnorock]

Then there's this post by Agglejay:
Re: Re: Red Modifier Set direct from SP for $18/set + shipping

Which I think is spot on. Now I think you all know by now that while I may have been able to pay a months worth of rent, I certainly can't and don't pay every month with group buys. Well my rent is $595. If that bothers you, don't participate in my group buys. There is no defined profit percentage or dollar value for my group buys or anyone's, and there isn't going to be. The people who participate in my group buys and every other see a price, determine whether they are willing to buy it at that price or not, and do whatever they decide. You don't go into Wal-Mart and bring a bottle of bleach to the counter and ask them how much they're going to make off of selling it, and how much goes to the supplier. That's just not how it works. Because that is a vendor-ish situation, I'm becoming a vendor, but I will still be running group buys, because I certainly don't have $25,000+ to fund another group buy similar to Red Alert out of pocket and taking that much risk is ridiculous.

Just like this post, I was willing to take a risk and go through all of the work and effort of selling the extra red mod sets on behalf of SP, for a potential loss (not selling enough to cover the refunds), no gain (making only enough to partially cover SP's losses and having to return the unsold merch) or a potential profit (if the previous costs had been covered) which was only feasible if I sold 175-200 of the leftover sets. Again the exact numbers are speculation because we never determined the details of the plan as it was shot down right away.

No, sorry, this whole thing is a cluster****... but basically I, along with a few others who can name themselves, called Rag out on some shady practices and he responded (in part) by claiming to raise prices because he was mad at us. I believe he was attempting to make a joke but since he won't explain his pricing to profit margin... you should take it up with Rag.

I never claimed to raise prices because I was mad at you. I've said repeatedly now that the reason these sets weren't $20 for everyone is because you guys shot down my plan. Good thing too, because by the time it hit me that in order to do that I'd have to pack and ship upwards of 150 more packages since most of them would be single orders, I didn't want to do that much running to the post office. Sucks for everyone else though, so that's what I mean when I'm "blaming you for higher prices." The reason the price stayed at $35 is because that's what it was, and I wasn't going to change it and give refunds because more keycaps showed up. I decided at the time I'd just sell them at that price and donate most of the admittedly excessive markup to Geekhack. If you don't believe me you can ask Rknize as I mentioned to him last month I was planning a large donation.

Vesper if you still feel cheated after reading this, (you bought them before the sale, which is just how it goes for $5 of it, but regardless you were a part of the leftover sales) send me a PM and we'll work something out, potentially where you return your keys for a refund and buy them from SP or something. I feel bad since it seems $40 is a very significant amount of money to you. Obviously I can't do that for everyone, so I'm not making a commitment to that. Again if you're not okay with me using the excess markup to donate to GH, pm me.

Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group.  He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount *and* additional stock so he can sell them after the GB is closed.  Not only that, he sells the extra stock at even higher prices to make even more money.

Now, the first part of that could mean that Rag was charging buyers at a lower tier than the number of orders that actually came in, OR it could mean he charged them at the tier they reached.

Actually knowing which it was is critical to whether I'd consider his pricing 'fair enough' not to warrant attack.

I charged people at the price tier the group buy reached. Charging them at a lower tier would have been extremely wrong and also very obvious. I invested over $1000 of my own money, even after factoring in hitting the next tier's discount, in buying extras in case anyone is wondering. I think its reasonable that I make money off of that. That's risk right?

No, sorry, this whole thing is a cluster****... but basically I, along with a few others who can name themselves, called Rag out on some shady practices and he responded (in part) by claiming to raise prices because he was mad at us. I believe he was attempting to make a joke but since he won't explain his pricing to profit margin... you should take it up with Rag.

but in the end does it really matter what he charges or his reason? i didn't know there were rules on profit making here or anywhere else in the world, we live in a free market society. if he wants to make money from people and people are willing to buy what is the issue?

the only issue i can see is he doesn't do it as a vendor and just uses the group-buy way to do it. fair enough but if thats the issue make it clear and perhaps get a ruling that people doing group-buys shouldn't be in it to make a profit and if they want to make a profit become a vendor.

also without all the facts people are getting all pitchforky over nothing. it seems like its already been established that SP are selling these sets at a loss to get rid of them because they made to many, so without knowing how much rag actually paid its a bit ridiculous to be getting this worked up.

if it turns out he paid $27 for the set and is making $3 a set are you all still going to lose it?

where do you draw the line on what % of profit the group buy organiser takes before they should have to become a vendor?

Okay last one. Rayuki raises a good point I hinted at earlier: GH is a free market just like everywhere else, and everyone that participates does so of their own volition.

I'm struggling with the second point though. I agree that I should be doing it as a vendor if I'm requiring I make some money out of it. However if you instate a rule where profits aren't allowed, you run into several of the issues over at OTD/KBDMania that we don't want here: Limited quantities available, higher prices, and a bunch of drama if someone does end up making something. As Agglejay mentioned, it is EXTREMELY difficult to not make some money off of a group buy, and its pretty hard to set some sort of sliding scale as to how much money is okay. Percentages don't work because certain group buys are only for a single key and the limit would be too restrictive, and vice versa for a large group buy like Round 4 or Red Alert. Say 10%, on a group buy for 500 biohazard 1x keys would be something like $75, where if it was 10% on Red Alert, it'd be something like $2k, I'm not doing the math at all on that, just illustrating the point. Wheras a dollar value runs into the same problem. A $500 profit would mean the 200 esc keys were marked up like 200% in the group buy. Again pulling numbers out of the air. Anyways, its a tough issue and it hasn't been addressed for a reason. I think the marketplace rules do a sufficient job of regulating it. Users vote with their dollars and it works. I'm not intentionally misleading anyone, and never have been, regardless of what the mafia says.

I also think becoming a vendor should require some sort of donation to GH, as GH should get something in exchange for the various business being allowed to make money via the community. It would be difficult to do this since there are already many vendors on GH. Thus, part of the reasoning behind my $350 donation.

In conclusion, I've now spent the entirety of my evening writing this up for everyone, I even exceeded the maximum post length! I hope it gets read and clears up as much of the misunderstanding as possible. I would like to continue doing group buys here if possible, and again, thanks to everyone that has supported and backed me up lately. I will not be responding to further argument on this subject other than perhaps further clarification on a certain point of it is asked civilly.

Cheers.

Dave out

[sth]

After a quick read I have to say, I am impressed with your conclusions.
It's good to hear about the donation, and more importantly it's good that you have decided to become a more 'standard' vendor. I look forward to seeing where your business takes you and to checking out the products you'll have to offer.
As far as raising prices because of the 'hate crew' versus our opinions affecting your decision -- this is the same situation as the 'melissa getting fired' thing that raised so much attention. Somebody in your position should not be making claims of dubious natures and then falling back on excuses. I would have hoped that you would just admit that originally so we could have moved on, but I am glad to see your more recent response on the matters.

A couple of things that I still disagree with:
GeekHack is not a free market (the legitimacy of such a concept can be argued both ways), it is a relatively small community with product values set by demand and false inflation. I am not accusing you of causing that, that's just the way it is. It's constantly illustrated by things like the recent hyperinflation of CCs, as well as the ridiculous values of certain vintage products (dolch is a great example, as is the dollar amount placed on things like red Cherry esc keys). I would hope that we, as a community first and a commercial enabler second, would realize the benefits of low pricing and trying to avoid the 'collector' mentality so that everybody (or at least a fair number of people) get a chance at the things they want to have, but I realize that there are always going to be people that believe their money is worth more than a cohesive, happy group of people. I would rather focus on the positives of this community but as you are well aware I will not shy away from what I view as a negative influence.

As far as antiprofit group buys -- your argument about higher prices is questionable. The more people order, the lower the price gets, with diminishing discounts after a certain point. I think Tsangan's CCnG is a good example of that - the keys got as low as they were going to go. When discussed with participants, doubling orders at a slight price hike to reach more desirable price tiers is fine as long as those paying get double the product (such as with Quarzac's moogle buy). I do not think that it is fair to throw in a bit of your own money to reach those price tiers and then make profits off of the extras when it may not be an equal amount spent. That obviously is a case-by-case situation to be judged when it comes up. I don't really get the lottery concept so I won't comment there.

All in all, I do fundamentally disagree with your stance on economics, but don't take it personally -- I disagree with a LOT of people on a LOT of economic platforms ) I would like to add that I am pretty sure that I have not specifically called you out on anything that has not been directly related to the discussion of this group buy (and perhaps your handling of the Realforce board from EK -- that whole incident was in rather poor taste). In all honesty if I made comments in other threads about what I thought of your business practices, they were probably not in good taste and for that I rescind anything that could be construed as a personal attack. Hate the sin, not the sinner etc.

I don't want to see this kind of drama on geekhack. I hope we can get past this.

[Ragnorock]

Yeah I can dig. I mean I'm learning this as we go, and I've certainly made mistakes. The RF thing was a mistake, but honestly at the time I really didn't know how all that worked at all, but part of it was "for the lulz." I'd never been in a situation before and I wanted to know how he'd react to gain a better understanding of what sort of responses work and what don't. If he didn't ever step in, though I expected him to, I would have assumed he didn't care enough to bother with it. Regardless of the outcome I was going to learn something, and all I really wanted was my Leo.

GH is a free market economy with a higher percentage of wealthy individuals. There are a lot of people here with plenty of disposable income to blow on keycaps and expensive, rare boards, so they tend to inflate prices by being willing to pay a premium for stuff. That sucks for everyone else, but its kindof how it is. I'm not attempting to drive up prices for stuff. The markups I charge are based off of the quantity I have to sell. If I have tons of esc keys, the markup is going to be pretty small since I can make it up in quantity. If I only have 5 spare red mod sets, the markup has to be more significant to justify the investment of money. For the price I spent on the leftovers, I could have bought the biohazard keys in advance or something like that. This has all been discussed ad nauseum and I'm sure you've heard all this before. I do plan on offering very reasonable markups in the future to make it easier on everyone since I plan on doing this for a while now.

As for the rest of the stuff it really is a case by case basis and I am willing to work for the best interests of GH, not so much myself. That's a discussion for another day.

Anyways I'm willing to let the past be the past, and I forgive you for the personal attacks.

[Soarer]

(The quote tags were off on this bit)

Rag uses other people's money so he can buy up to cheaper tier pricing, without sharing the discount to the group.  He then buy up to the next tier to get additional discount *and* additional stock so he can sell them after the GB is closed.  Not only that, he sells the extra stock at even higher prices to make even more money.

Now, the first part of that could mean that Rag was charging buyers at a lower tier than the number of orders that actually came in, OR it could mean he charged them at the tier they reached.

Actually knowing which it was is critical to whether I'd consider his pricing 'fair enough' not to warrant attack.

I charged people at the price tier the group buy reached. Charging them at a lower tier would have been extremely wrong and also very obvious. I invested over $1000 of my own money, even after factoring in hitting the next tier's discount, in buying extras in case anyone is wondering. I think its reasonable that I make money off of that. That's risk right?

Obvious or not, if that was what litster was claiming it would've been fairly easy for him to back it up somehow, if it were true, and he hasn't.

My position is that where extra keys can be bought, it's purely up to the organizer to decide what to do with them, or any profit they may provide. You may be comfortable becoming a vendor for other reasons, but I wouldn't be happy if it was simply the 'profit from extras' claim that forced you to make that change, because that sets a precedent for other GB organizers. The fact that pretty much anyone can do a group buy for some whacky keycap idea is a good thing: it keeps the section vibrant.

As far as the mistakenly made batch goes, I can see now why litster was saying I didn't understand. I did not understand just how vindictive and disengenious he was being, when he was also implying that $18 was the price you paid for the original group buy sets.

[VesperSAINT]

Vesper if you still feel cheated after reading this, (you bought them before the sale, which is just how it goes for $5 of it, but regardless you were a part of the leftover sales) send me a PM and we'll work something out, potentially where you return your keys for a refund and buy them from SP or something. I feel bad since it seems $40 is a very significant amount of money to you. Obviously I can't do that for everyone, so I'm not making a commitment to that. Again if you're not okay with me using the excess markup to donate to GH, pm me.

I want to thank you first for your in-depth explanation of the situation at hand. It has cleared up much of the questions I had in mind but did not want to spew on the forum in fear of making ignorant accusations on subject matters I did not fully understand.

I also thank you kindly for your consideration towards my needs. However, I'd like to clear something up. As you stated, GH is a community composed of a higher percentage of individuals (I assume this is correct) with plenty of disposable income to blow on keycaps. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people. Yes, $40.80 is a very significant amount of money to me but also significant based on the value of the commodity at hand, and unfortunately, that value has dropped... significantly. Unfortunately for me, I just happen to be weigh my money differently based on what's being purchased. No offense to those who value keycaps more highly than I do  )  I'm just a poor guy (pun intended) who happened to fall in love with keyboards This ultimately makes $19.05 (the difference I paid over the SP sale) a significant amount in terms of how it can be used towards other keyboard related products, which makes the difference which I paid seem so much more "significant".

As stated before, I felt cheated, as in I know you weren't cheating me out of my money (I hope... lol I jest) but that's just how I feel after the value of the product had suddenly dropped so much. My fault for my frugal mind set  I'll be sure to send you a PM with my thoughts

I think you bring awesome things to this community, Ragnarok, and I hope you'll continue with your endeavors to enrich this community hopefully with a mindset that you're dealing with a community of keyboard lovers (rich and poor), and not just a "free market economy with a higher percentage of wealthy individuals".

[Soarer]

I do not think that it is fair to throw in a bit of your own money to reach those price tiers and then make profits off of the extras when it may not be an equal amount spent.

I do think that's "fair enough", since it doesn't affect the buyers. At some point, the next tier becomes free, and I've posted about that dilemma already. Of course, further tiers would also be cheap relative to the GB price, but then the quantity is so much higher that selling them all in a sensible timeframe would be unlikely - it can't be viewed as automatic, easy, profit. (And if the quantities are not high, then there isn't much profit anyway).

One thing I'd like to encourage here is separating complaints that are specific to Rag from those that are more about GBs generally due to SP's tiered pricing. Of course Rag might choose to input into that debate as well, but he shouldn't be forced to answer on behalf of every GB organizer

[IPT]

btw question for those who say GBs should be run as like non profit and as a favor for the community:
I've been wondering for a while how people like Feng fall into this.
Not to single him out, just I see his group buys style is different from others who run GBs: pool interest, get orders, then send invoices to get $$

He asks for $$ up front when you want to order, then ships you the order.
I'm sure he has some sort of profit, he's not doing these at cost.

I have no issue with how Feng operates his GB, i just wonder would you consider his operations to be against the "spirit of GB" on Geekhack?

Also i feel there's more outrage to Dave than to people who've actually scammed members of the community here
I don't see the hate train for someone like Changdrew who still owes refunds for one of his groupbuys that he was placing through imosto, and still hasn't shipped his Taobao groupbuy.  We have 0 communication from him, he logs into GH still, but will not post.  And yet there seems to be a lot less outrage for someone holding that much $$ of GH members' money than Dave's GB in which he makes $$.

Again i read dave's initial post similar to how Soarer read it with Hyperbole.  I also think there are some people who are pretty hypocritical about not turning a profit towards the community, but have no problems auctioning their own keycaps when it comes to their own transactions.  Yes GH is a community, but frankly the way we deal in keycaps, its very difficult to not try to either recoop your $$, or sell for profit.  I'm sure i'm not the only person who bought some extra caps in hopes of using them as trade or selling to fund future purchases.

[alaricljs]

This is not being posted as official GH business in any way.  We do not control how people do business, but we certainly care about the community we have here and try to encourage community behavior.


I think the primary thing is that GBs should be run honestly.  Be up front about what things cost and where money is going.  Since close to non-profit is how these things came about that's where the community expects it to stay, especially if no one says anything different. 

Feng's (and imsto and others) GBs are really just fixed price offering of hard to find product.  He's a vendor and half the time he's buying it to inventory either way and just wants to know what level of demand to expect and/or be able to unload a good percentage immediately.  He also doesn't change his pricing after his "GB" closes and then list some more at higher prices immediately after in the classifieds.  In a specific case he's even worked at negotiating a lower price and provided the terms to reach that price.  The important part again being that his pricing is explicit and honest.  No sudden change in prices after the hook is set even if business goes bad for him.

When a GB is run and it's stated that 'here's the SP price tiers on this set' then typically one would expect that those are the quoted by SP prices, not the inflated prices of someone looking to make money (I am not stating that this is what happened in any case, this is a hypothetical).  It's also a known fact that price tiers from SP frequently overlap pretty broadly.  The more common response to getting close to that is to urge people to increase their own order or recruit others to order to hit that next tier.  This is usually only a good idea on novelty caps, not sets.

What happens when the next price tier is close enough that the coordinator can pay that amount themselves?


Here's a REAL scenario using real pricing for a set of key caps:

Price tiers are at 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 150 / 200

We manage to get 90 orders, it's not that popular a set even tho the price is good.  We're at $45.36 per set.  It's only ~$3 cheaper for the next tier so nobody is really interested in doubling down.  Total key cap cost (ex. shipping) $4082.40  But for only ~$120  I can buy 10 more sets.  So I plonk down for 100 sets, and it's $4207.00.  Charge the buyers $45.36.  GB is over, every one is happy... plonk down an ad for GB leftovers!  $55/set and I have 10 sets available.  Successfully sell 10 sets over the course of 4 months.  That's $550 in for the 10 extra sets.

Here's the math:

Code: [Select]

(4207.00) : 100 sets purchased
 4082.40  : 90 sets out via GB+
_________
 (124.60)  : my cost
  550.00  : 10 sets out via classifieds (takes 4 months)
_________
  425.40  : income

That's just a base TKL key set, no tsangan, no ISO, no tenkey.  No inflated shipping costs.  If I decided to give the GB'ers the better price tier.... That's $296.10 that I don't get and I've suddenly only made $129 off a $420 outlay, not nearly as attractive for me.  That doesn't look attractive in $$ form, however the lower return is STILL 31%.  Then you take into account the labor and for my personal situation both numbers suck *if I'm in it for the money*.

Let's say that you're only willing to risk ~$120 running any of these because you are risk averse.  We'll do another at 135 sets. 

Code: [Select]

(5817.00)  :  150 sets from SP
 5679.45   :  135 sets out via GB

 (137.55)  : my cost
  780.00   :  15 sets sold @$52/set over 6 months (my standard $10 markup)
_________
  642.45   :  income

Just made ~$220 more for the same cash outlay, but it was definitely more work.  Still not worth it if I'm doing it for income.

The important part to remember about all this is I never told you this would happen when you joined my GB and sent me your money.  Being kept in the dark about something that has traditionally been a community process is what I've seen upset people the most. 

In both of these scenarios I'm at better than break-even with only 3 sets sold.  It's almost a guarantee that this can be done with most GB sets.

It is hard work running a group buy, but demanding after the fact that how you ran it was justified by the amount of work can be viewed as inappropriate.  If you want compensation for your work then you should set pricing up front and be honest in your dealings.

[sth]

The important part to remember about all this is I never told you this would happen when you joined my GB and sent me your money.  Being kept in the dark about something that has traditionally been a community process is what I've seen upset people the most. 

I don't know why I've had such a hard time saying this or at least getting it across coherently but this is a really important point.

[longweight]

Nice posts Rag, I look forward to seeing what you will do next

[xJaPx]

You've definitely redeened yourself rag.  I was hatin before, but you've definitely cleared some suspicions.  I wish you luck on your transfer to vendor.

As far as GBs being non profit, i personally dont agree.  The time GB runners put in, especially the larger ones, isn't by any means insignificant.  I'll gladly pay a few dollars extra so the runner can make a little spending cash.  Hell, 80% of it will probably end up back in the market anyway haha

[sth]

You've definitely redeened yourself rag.  I was hatin before, but you've definitely cleared some suspicions.  I wish you luck on your transfer to vendor.

As far as GBs being non profit, i personally dont agree.  The time GB runners put in, especially the larger ones, isn't by any means insignificant.  I'll gladly pay a few dollars extra so the runner can make a little spending cash.  Hell, 80% of it will probably end up back in the market anyway haha

feel free to tack on a couple of bucks with your payments to group buys then. i'm not saying i dont value the time and effort that GB ops put in, i'm saying i don't place a monetary value on that (especially considering  the volatility of the market here). what makes the most sense to me is that the group buy op gets a free 'slot' in the group buy for a full set of whatever is being ordered... but for some that is not enough. that's where becoming a vendor makes the most sense to me.

[Soarer]

The important part to remember about all this is I never told you this would happen when you joined my GB and sent me your money.  Being kept in the dark about something that has traditionally been a community process is what I've seen upset people the most. 

I don't know why I've had such a hard time saying this or at least getting it across coherently but this is a really important point.

While I broadly agree with the points about openess in general, I think this particular point is tricky. At the start of a GB, the Org doesn't know what position they'll be in at the end, so it's very onerous to tell people about every possible outcome.

I think we have to distinguish between three scenarios...
1. Perfect GB. Golden standard. No profit. No-one could possible complain about anything.
2. Imperfect GB. e.g. Most of them. Let's say the Org made some profit on extras or whatever.
3. Bad GB. e.g. Really unfair pricing, with profit taken from every GB set as well as extras. Deserves complaint.

I'm not really sure which parts of alaricljs's post could be prefixed with "In a perfect world..." and which with "Every GB Org should...", and the difference is crucial to the debate about when it's appropriate to complain openly about a GB. Where we are now is that every GB in #2 is a grey area, under debate, that we haven't yet narrowed much.

As a community, I think we could lose overall by chasing GB Orgs who want a small profit into being vendors, since it could well mean higher prices generally for keycaps and sets. At best, it might turn what would've been #2 into #3. At worst, prices are even higher because the Org (now vendor) is taking the risk, and can only guess at the quantities to order. From a vendor I would expect the markup to be more like 50% or even 100%, rather than the 10% from alaricljs' example ( (550 - 120) / 4207 ). I've worked it out that way because even if all that discount was given back to buyers, it would only be 10%, and for this paragraph I'm just looking at it from a buyer's perspective. (I'd like to come back to this thought when I'm less tired and put some better numbers into it).

[sth]

I don't think that needs to be stated outright in the beginning unless the GB op specifically plans on buying up the price tier. If it becomes a prudent option later during the buy, they should probably just disclose it rather than hiding the possibility (not pointing any fingers, hypothetical situation). I can't see many people getting that upset about being honest rather than doing something somewhat underhanded to benefit an individual, even if it's not a 'big' deal.

I think i3oilermaker has a really good system - he doesn't mark up the keys to an absurd level and everybody knows that he buys up the price tier, so he can guarantee pricing, keep the initial group buy pricing reasonable and then have as much as he wants to sell later. That also has the added benefit of denying the group buy sets the ability to inflate in perceived value because one can always buy the product from the original seller at a set price.
 

[Soarer]

I dunno. I can imagine some people getting upset and thinking that what they signed up for has changed for the worse! It's a possibility/probability with any SP GB, so perhaps there's a case for a sticky being made that details the core facts (i.e. no contentious opinions!) about SP GBs. I do agree that with 'caveat emptor' the buyer should have some means of informing themselves, but it doesn't always have to be from either the GB Org or the angry complaints

[Ragnorock]

I think i3oilermaker has a really good system - he doesn't mark up the keys to an absurd level and everybody knows that he buys up the price tier, so he can guarantee pricing, keep the initial group buy pricing reasonable and then have as much as he wants to sell later. That also has the added benefit of denying the group buy sets the ability to inflate in perceived value because one can always buy the product from the original seller at a set price.

That's exactly what I do. Obviously that only works until the seller runs out of leftovers though. Even with Red Alert I invested heavily in leftovers and they were still gone relatively fast. I'm not sure what the market looks like for them now, but I imagine they'll be sold for more than the $80 I was asking in the next few months if they haven't already.

[sth]

jesus i really hope that people don't place that high a value on ANY flimsy sp key sets i know the original RA set goes for quite a lot in some places but it also has like 180 keys in the set.

[Ragnorock]

I suppose, but at the current rate of price hikes we're seeing from SP, its gone from $45 to $65 in a few months, so $80 for a set once the supply dries up is pretty feasible at this point. I figure when combined with a tsangan kit and the now obviously much more rare grey mods, a RA 2.0 set could easily fetch well over $100, where I've seen original sets sell for $150-$200. Not saying they're worth that much, I know how you feel about that, but the guys with money on here are willing to shell out a lot of it for the more limited stuff, as expressed most obviously with click clacks.


One thing I don't get though is people calling SP sets flimsy or low quality... its not like you're running over them with a truck, and I've never been able to detect a difference in the sound that comes from thicker keys or thinner ones. They're great quality imo, except I do really dislike the front sprue on doubleshots.


Their PBT keys though are some of the best I've ever seen, right up there with the ones on my RFs.

[sth]

i think i just prefer the aesthetic qualities of thicker caps -- square edges, cleaner sprue markings... it's not necessarily that the caps are thicker, but the caps that are thicker are generally of a much higher quality all around than SP's keys. some people claim to hear a difference... i don't pay attention

[xJaPx]

You've definitely redeened yourself rag.  I was hatin before, but you've definitely cleared some suspicions.  I wish you luck on your transfer to vendor.

As far as GBs being non profit, i personally dont agree.  The time GB runners put in, especially the larger ones, isn't by any means insignificant.  I'll gladly pay a few dollars extra so the runner can make a little spending cash.  Hell, 80% of it will probably end up back in the market anyway haha

feel free to tack on a couple of bucks with your payments to group buys then. i'm not saying i dont value the time and effort that GB ops put in, i'm saying i don't place a monetary value on that (especially considering  the volatility of the market here). what makes the most sense to me is that the group buy op gets a free 'slot' in the group buy for a full set of whatever is being ordered... but for some that is not enough. that's where becoming a vendor makes the most sense to me.

are you saying your not willing to give $2 more than the shipping/item cost total?.  Do you know how long it take to fill a hundred packages, label them, and all that garbage?  This is a community, and i think most of us dont mind forking over a dollar or two to the GB runner.  For all the thousands we spend on KB stuff, a couple dolllars is just a way of saying thanks. 

[sth]

You've definitely redeened yourself rag.  I was hatin before, but you've definitely cleared some suspicions.  I wish you luck on your transfer to vendor.

As far as GBs being non profit, i personally dont agree.  The time GB runners put in, especially the larger ones, isn't by any means insignificant.  I'll gladly pay a few dollars extra so the runner can make a little spending cash.  Hell, 80% of it will probably end up back in the market anyway haha

feel free to tack on a couple of bucks with your payments to group buys then. i'm not saying i dont value the time and effort that GB ops put in, i'm saying i don't place a monetary value on that (especially considering  the volatility of the market here). what makes the most sense to me is that the group buy op gets a free 'slot' in the group buy for a full set of whatever is being ordered... but for some that is not enough. that's where becoming a vendor makes the most sense to me.

are you saying your not willing to give $2 more than the shipping/item cost total?.  Do you know how long it take to fill a hundred packages, label them, and all that garbage?  This is a community, and i think most of us dont mind forking over a dollar or two to the GB runner.  For all the thousands we spend on KB stuff, a couple dolllars is just a way of saying thanks. 

are you saying you're willing to make that decision for everybody? please don't try to make me out as unreasonable; i have been one of the most vocal, verbose and willing to discuss this topic in this whole debacle.
as has been stated maaaaaaaaaany times, if you want to make money, become a vendor. the point is not who deserves what, but what the original intent of the group buy concept is. it's nice that you want to leave a tip, but that's what it should be -- a tip. tips can come in more forms than money though (especially when the GB operator is clearly not staking his or her livelihood on the number of orders). this is why i think the best solution is that the pricing scheme includes enough wiggle room so the GB operator gets to keep a set of keys as compensation/appreciation for their efforts. replace keys with whatever else if the GB is not for keys.

i don't value my time or anybody else' with a dollar value, but that is NOT a discussion i am willing to have here since it's a little too off topic and woo-woo foofy for most capital-minded folks.

[xJaPx]

i value my time way more then money, lol.  But the thing is, the GB runner isnt making a decision for anyone.  You are making the conscious decision to give a little kickback to the runner  by participating.  I'm not being argumentative, im just trying to discuss this(so please dont take it that way)

There are definitely some GB runners on here looking to make a nice cash flow off of them, but a good chunk of us simply want to make some cool ass keys.  If you are talking compensation in the form of a key set, and by that you are referring to something along the lines of a ful 87/104 set, than yea i could see that.  But what about the single key GBs, where a similar amount of time is put into arranging it.  Is 1 or 2 keys acceptable to you in exchange for the time put in?   I guess maybe my understanding on GBs may be off?  I thought most gbs were cost of keys + shipping, with a little buffer added into shipping for time, materials, and actual shipping cost.  Am i mistaken?

[Ragnorock]

I thought most gbs were cost of keys + shipping, with a little buffer added into shipping for time, materials, and actual shipping cost.  Am i mistaken?

Yeah that's about right. I round my prices up to the next dollar or so for simplicity and that covers the buffer. Then I don't have to worry about fluctuations in shipping, materials, etc.

STH's point is that an effort should be made by the GB organizer to get as close to breaking even as possible without taking unnecessary risk. Aside from strictly financial risk, some group buy organizers take other risks too though. RCT for example had his Paypal account shut down and even though everything was on the level he's now banned from using a service that has become ubiquitous. Personally, I'm worried about the IRS coming after me for the full volume of money running through my account as income, when only a small percentage of that was actual profit. I could be faced with thousands of dollars in taxes due next year if I don't file them correctly, resulting in a great deal more work and effort/time on my end. Thus, since I'm already in that boat, it is in my best interest to continue since I've already taken that risk.

IMO, if you consistently are running group buys every month or two, then you should be one of the ones considering vendor status. If you do a one time thing or a once in a great while gb, then obviously there is little reason for you to. That way, even if someone makes an "unreasonable" profit, they aren't doing it consistently as a source of income and making a living off of it. I should also restate that I don't make a living off of doing these, even with the considerable amount of gbs that I have done now. It might be enough to cover a month of expenses, but I don't see it as a sustainable business that I could consider doing for a career after graduating.

[Wildcard]

Rag, thank you for running these group buys.

I know some people complain about you making a profit, but I believe time is money and I have no concerns with compensating someone for that. What your doing helps the geekhack community, helps SP, and the economy.

Prices rise and prices fall and that's just the nature of an average marketplace.

[sth]

Rag, thank you for running these group buys.

I know some people complain about you making a profit, but I believe time is money and I have no concerns with compensating someone for that. What your doing helps the geekhack community, helps SP, and the economy.

Prices rise and prices fall and that's just the nature of an average marketplace.

you should just call me out if you want to call me out man.
your ideas about monetary compensation are fine, but i think we need to have a less exclusionary discussion of when that compensation is appropriate rather than just saying 'time is money' and leaving it at that.

we are not an average marketplace either (if such a concept exists outside of theory, or is even useful to apply to a niche hobbyist forum).

sorry to keep parroting these points! i feel like we're all in a big echo chamber here. i really wish there was more interest on the part of the GH moderation team in figuring out a decently agreeable set of base 'guidelines' for group buys that individual group buy operators can then take liberties with -- IF and ONLY IF they state the differences between their group buy policies and the 'standard' agreed-upon definition of a group buy.

[Ragnorock]

I think we can wait a bit before pushing for that step, I mean aside from the obvious problems with my group buys, there hasn't been many jimmies rustled over other group buys, (regardless of whether they're making "questionable" profits or not, it hasn't come to the forefront of GH's attention) so as I'm becoming a vendor I think we can just step back and observe it for the time being. It can always be addressed if further issues arise.


Also I don't think he was calling you out, I think that was a comment more toward the overall happenings. But thanks RiffRaff.

[Wildcard]

Your welcome Rag!

No, I wasn't trying to call any one person out, I think the geekhack marketplace is fairly diverse for both buyers and sellers. Like the free market, buyers and sellers dictate what the prices ultimately do. If you don't wish to buy something due to the price or your own beliefs, ethics, or ideals that should be your choice. And ultimately this will dictate what exists in our marketplace. If Rag was charging $300 for a basic black on white tenkeyless set, would anyone buy it? Probably not. And if so, should anyone complain? He's shipping out orders correct? Not scamming members of the community? He's definitely not buying from someone else's group buy then asking a 1000% markup.

Rag is not being unethical. If newegg gets a discount from a supplier do they give discounts out to those who completed prior orders? No.

Rag was trying to be fair and smart about it. He's not going to continue to do group buys if he loses money. And guess what, if he's making a profit he's very likely to do another group buy again in the future.

Does this help the community? In my opinion, yes.

[Soarer]

sorry to keep parroting these points! i feel like we're all in a big echo chamber here. i really wish there was more interest on the part of the GH moderation team in figuring out a decently agreeable set of base 'guidelines' for group buys that individual group buy operators can then take liberties with -- IF and ONLY IF they state the differences between their group buy policies and the 'standard' agreed-upon definition of a group buy.

Well, I can understand your frustration, but the position of caveat emptor has been stated. It's up to the buyers whether they participate. The trouble for your position in this debate is that most^* buyers seem happy with the idea of the GB Org doing what they like with any free or cheap extras that might be available as a result of running the GB, even when they are aware that profit could be made.

^* Obviously I haven't scientifically assessed this, but out of the hundreds of buyers I think it's unlikely by now that even half of them are unaware that extras might give the Org some profit. Yet I'm only seeing a handful of vocal complainants, easily balanced by the number of buyers who are prepared to comment to say they are happy, even in a heated thread like this.

If that's indeed true, then I can't see the justification for guidelines that guide towards anything other than what most SP GBs already conform to - namely, that any profit is only made on extras.

I know I won't be able to change your opinion on the 'profit', but I might be able to change your opinion on what justifies attacking someone over. Indeed, I hope to.

[Soarer]

Seems like we're pretty much done here then. I'm a little concerned that we don't seem to have settled much - knowing SP, this situation will repeat itself in the future

I see mistaken batches as cursed bonus extras... they wouldn't come about if it wasn't for the original group buy, and there's a potential large profit, but it would take many months to realise, if ever, and the Org is in an awkward situation that they didn't intend.

So in that sense, I don't see it as purely orthogonal to the tiers/extras debate, just as another form of extras. It doesn't mean that anyone was ripped off in the original GB.

I launched into this debate because I think it's wrong to attack anyone without being able to back up the accusations with solid facts, that properly address the whole picture. It's not valid to highlight one part of someone's deal with SP, and use it to smear the rest of it. It's even less valid to use it to smear someone's character.

Above all, it's just fundamentally wrong for a small clique to try and hound anyone off the forum. If the moderators choose not to ban someone, then live with it - vendettas are bad for the community.

[reaper]

Yup, seems like this thread has run its course.  Both sides have presented their side of the story so I'm just going to close it for now unless anyone has a good reason why we should leave this open please feel free to PM me.


Thanks!