[IC] Katana60 tmk/qmk 60% PCB, with ALPs and MX support -updated intro

[RominRonin]

Latest update post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88719.msg2477138#msg2477138

Introduction
Katana60 is a symmetrical row staggered PCB that is compatible with standard 60% keyboards and standard keysets. You can use Matias/ALPS switches in any of the compatible layouts, and there is a layout which is compatible with an AEKii keycap set. The idea of the compatibility layouts is to reduce costs when it comes to hunting down keys for your new board.

Compatibility
This image illustrates the multiple bottom compatibility options available on the PCB. The MX and AEKii labels are a guide - you can use whichever layout you want with any switch type, though in order to use the AEKii compatible stabilisers, you will need to get your own plate cut.

KLE compatibility:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/2c5fbe25d69beb177f9701989bd6f36c

Or image:

More

Great for touch typing
The board is symmetrical row staggered, which is great if you're a touch typer and/or you use Dvorak/Colemak layouts, or any other layouts optimised for maximum home-row time. The idea here is that you rarely need to move your hands from the home row, making it more efficient and ergonomical.

Many ergonomic keyboards on the market tend to be expensive, require completely custom keycaps sets (adding to the cost) and have an odd shaped case. Trying one without being sure if you'll like it requires a leap of financial faith. The Katana60 will be cheaper to try, and you can choose one of many 60% cases, giving you a lot of customisation choice.

Plate PCB and Pricing
There will be a universal plate available at the same time as the PCB. The PCB supports PCB mounted Cherry stabilisers, though you can make your own plate with plate mounted cut-outs if you wish. Though the original intention was to launch a group buy, but the Katana60 will instead be made available at candykeys.com

The PCB and universal is currently being quote up and prices will be revealed soon. I welcome all of your feedback, please leave your comments below.


Original post:

More

Interested users:

Yes
Robotical
Trente
jebbra
rrrsss
runswithflowers

Maybe
Puddsy
ErgoMacros
Vigrith




I'm gauging interest in a PCB for a 60% board with a symmetrical row stagger (a more natural slant for the left hand). The PCB will fit right into 60% cases, and will come pre-soldered with microcontroller (atmega32u4) and diodes - all you need to do is add switches. Above is an example layout that I'm using in a hand-wired prototype board right now.

The current PCB prototype supports both MX and ALPs switches; I’d like to run a concurrent switch plate group buy enabling each of the PCB’s supported layouts:


Features
* Symmetrical layout, for a more natural (ergonomic) key arrangement than legacy layouts.
* Support for standard ANSI keycap sets - you don’t need any special keycaps.
* Support for qmk or tmk, with an atmega32u4 microcontroller (found on teensy 2.0 and pro micro).
* Support for poker style 60% cases.
* Support for Cherry MX AND Matias/ALPs style switches.
* All components will be presoldered - just add switches and caps.

Further refinements
* Switch plate style (which layout, universal switch cutouts?).
* debugging the PCB.

The Layout
The layout features symmetrical staggered rows, like the utron, suka's hypermicro or a number of bpiphany’s boards. Unlike these boards, a standard ANSI keyset is all you need to cover this layout. This is by design, as it allows you to cheaply buy in to any attractive keyset group buy.

The PCB
I’m currently debugging the first PCB prototype. The PCB supports ALPs and Cherry MX switches, with the following supported layouts:


Bonus!: Link to KLE

The two alternative bottom rows arose from my desire to support the (limited) Matias keycaps that are available - here is a hand-wired Katana60, with MQCs and aekii caps, that I’m currently using day-to-day at the office:


Fully programmable
The PCB will include an atmega32u4 - the same microcontroller found in the popular Teensy and Pro Micro boards, so its compatible with TMK and QMK firmware.

If you’re interested in either 1. the PCB, 2. the switch plate or 3. both, please reply, saying which. I'll add the names to a list (and may or may not create a form for you to fill in).

Also, please state if you'd be interested in the plate if it supports universal holes (so the same plate can support both MX and ALPs style switches.)

Thanks!

[Robotical]

Huh. Definitely interesting. I would love to see a wrist wrest made to help with hand orientation for this layout. How have you found the placement of the arrow keys to work out for you? I could only see myself hitting backspace and spacebar out of habit. But I guess as long as you are used to the layout, it wouldn't be that bad.

[Trente]

INterested! I think this layout is pretty good, though it will take some time for left hand to get used to the way it staggered. I think this is a new start from many stagger ergo layout like what Apple/Microsoft do with their ergo keyboard

[infiniti]

Moved to the Interest Checks sub-forum for better visibility.

GLWIC!

[Puddsy]

this is ridiculous and i'd absolutely never use one

but i really want one

[jebbra]

I'm in

[ErgoMacros]

I like it and would like to try it for a week or two, but not sure I'd switch to it.
Still, very glad your trying this out.

[Vigrith]

this is ridiculous and i'd absolutely never use one

but i really want one

Exactly.

[RominRonin]

Nice feedback so far, thanks.

I received the components for the first PCB today, I'll solder it up when I have the time and feedback on how it went. Hopefully before Easter weekend?

Huh. Definitely interesting. I would love to see a wrist wrest made to help with hand orientation for this layout. How have you found the placement of the arrow keys to work out for you? ... I guess as long as you are used to the layout, it wouldn't be that bad.

Here is an image with prototype wrist rests. I switch between using them and not. Re: the arrow keys - you said it; you get used to them. I mean, I have arrows on a function layer anyway, so I only need those for shortcuts or when I'm scrolling one-handed around a window.

Moved to the Interest Checks sub-forum for better visibility.

GLWIC!

Thanks, I updated the title too!

this is ridiculous and i'd absolutely never use one

but i really want one

 )  <- has this emoticon ever been more appropriate?

I like it and would like to try it for a week or two, but not sure I'd switch to it.
Still, very glad your trying this out.

Why, thank you.

I'm in

Noice!

this is ridiculous and i'd absolutely never use one

but i really want one

Exactly.

 )

[Robotical]

Nice feedback so far, thanks.

I received the components for the first PCB today, I'll solder it up when I have the time and feedback on how it went. Hopefully before Easter weekend?

Huh. Definitely interesting. I would love to see a wrist wrest made to help with hand orientation for this layout. How have you found the placement of the arrow keys to work out for you? ... I guess as long as you are used to the layout, it wouldn't be that bad.

Here is an image with prototype wrist rests. I switch between using them and not. Re: the arrow keys - you said it; you get used to them. I mean, I have arrows on a function layer anyway, so I only need those for shortcuts or when I'm scrolling one-handed around a window.

Have you thought about using a concave wrist wrest to kind of funnel your hand position. I feel like my biggest issue with a layout like this would be establishing a home position and utilizing it consistently.

[RominRonin]

Have you thought about using a concave wrist wrest to kind of funnel your hand position. I feel like my biggest issue with a layout like this would be establishing a home position and utilizing it consistently.

The homing key bumps are still the best way to get your fingers into the right position, the aekii caps have the bumps under the middle finger (non-standard). I'm using both boards (with the same layout), and don't have trouble adjusting.

As for a concave wrist rest - yes, I often prop the wrist rests up to get that slight angle. I find that a comfortable position to work in. I did the same thing with my Dactyl - note there's also a reverse angle. That's inspired by the logitech g13 gaming pad rest - one of my favourite rests for comfort.

[rrrsss]

so this will fit normal poker cases then? excited for the pcb and the plate gb!

did some muckng around on KLE to see how a split would look like.. The first one would enable the development of symmetric pcb and plate (?) between the two halves, but leaves gaps between the halves. For the second and third ones, I'm kind of torn between giving the left half or the right half more keys. Not to mention the '6' key debacle.

[srang]

This looks like a neat kit

[_rubik]

I'd be very interested to see how I type on this. The alphas are interestingly slanted inward, but still not ortholinear. I could say I'm hesitantly in.

[RominRonin]

Since this is now in the interest check section, I thought I'd update the intro to read a bit better. Also, I added an interest list, please comment if I read your replis incorrectly!

@rrrsss: I've already got a split version planned, but that's not the focus of the current interest check - http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/3dc080c2b9fe14475b93baf13c7ff1ce

[srang]

Since this is now in the interest check section, I thought I'd update the intro to read a bit better. Also, I added an interest list, please comment if I read your replis incorrectly!

@rrrsss: I've already got a split version planned, but that's not the focus of the current interest check - http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/3dc080c2b9fe14475b93baf13c7ff1ce

Holy smokes that split version with a little underglow would be soooooo cool

[rrrsss]

can you move me to the 'yes' section? thanks!

@rrrsss: I've already got a split version planned, but that's not the focus of the current interest check - http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/3dc080c2b9fe14475b93baf13c7ff1ce

Yeah I know it's not for the current gb, maybe will handwire it myself hahaha. The ve-a esque split is cool too but unfortunately not my cup of tea.

[Robotical]

To clarify, I'm interested in both the PCB and a switch plate.

[batfink]

It's a great design. Typewriters (which obviously required having a stagger) should have been designed like this in the first place.

Have the N and M keys been switched intentionally? I can see the advantage, the more common N key would be easier to hit the way you have it, but it is non-standard Qwerty.

[RominRonin]

No, that was entirely by accident. I'm a colemak user, so I've mostly forgotten what QWERTY is supposed to look like

[ckofy]

Interested. I'm using Angle-wide mod on the standard keyboard, so my left hand is already trained for the new ergonomic position. Don't you think about continuing the same symmetric stagger to the numbers row?

[lvince95]

Interested!

[davkol]

If it supports PCB-mount Cherry MX and ships from within EU, I'm in for the PCB.

[srang]

Oh btw, interested. Pricing estimate?

[batfink]

Interested!

Agreed, the top row should be

1 2 3 4 5 - = 6 7 8 9 0

with hypen and equals located above the two bracket keys.

[Robotical]

Interested!

Agreed, the top row should be

1 2 3 4 5 - = 6 7 8 9 0

with hypen and equals located above the two bracket keys.

Shouldn't be a big deal. According to the OP, the PCB will be fully programmable, so that is just a programming change. Layout wise though, that does make sense to me. Almost wonder what it would be like to have the 6 next to the T and the 7 next to the Y. Basically swapping those two positions with the bracket keys.

[runswithflowers]

I think I saw a picture of this in one of the meetup albums. https://i.imgur.com/GP0E4N2h.jpg
Does that mean it's still happening?

[RominRonin]

I think I saw a picture of this in one of the meetup albums. https://i.imgur.com/GP0E4N2h.jpg
Does that mean it's still happening?

The project isn't dead, but I have been very busy at work. I'm on holiday for the next two weeks, I'll post an update after I return.

[runswithflowers]

I think I saw a picture of this in one of the meetup albums. https://i.imgur.com/GP0E4N2h.jpg
Does that mean it's still happening?

The project isn't dead, but I have been very busy at work. I'm on holiday for the next two weeks, I'll post an update after I return.

Can't wait! You can mark me as interested!!

[dodgeyhack]

This layout makes a lot of sense to me. I'd like something that avoids so much twisting of the left wrist. I'd be interested in this, but I'm more interested in a split option. I'm worried that I won't be able to overcome 25 odd years of muscle memory so the more radical split version might be different enough that muscle memory won't apply so much.

[Auk]

I like this more and more each time I browse this thread, but translating interest to an actual purchase does of course depend on timing and money...

In the meantime, questions:

• Is the plate material decided?
• Will this support lighting and underglow? Not something I need, but it seems to be demanded more and more within the mech community.
• Is there any downside to supporting Alps and MX? Many projects don't, I just wondered why if it's possible?
• Is this likely to be manufactured in Europe? Is there an estimate for the expected cost?

Thanks!

[rioc]

very interested!


edit: with 2b, 3b, 4b & 5b there's gonna be an option for another 1u switch between 3b and 4b, right? or how is that thought out to be?

[menuhin]

Interested in having an Alps board like this!

[ptiede]

I'm very interested in both the pcb and plate.

[lac29]

This is a really neat layout. I hope it gets more exposure and testing done.

[UTEster750]

It is definitely an interesting layout, something a bit different, in a good was

[CandyKeys]

This is exciting, you have our full backing for support!

[vim_commando]

I like the concept, I'm a definite maybe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RominRonin]

This is exciting, you have our full backing for support!

This is exciting indeed

Prices and announcements coming very soon

[Auk]

Prices and announcements coming very soon

Will be watching, and although It's probably too far progressed at this point I wondered about the 1u shift being too small - ANSI users often point to the left shift on ISO as being too small and too far to reach. I wanted to ask if you were fixed on the 60% size, or if a variation with wider modifiers had been considered? which would of course mean the width ends up a little nearer 65%.

[RominRonin]

ANSI users often point to the left shift on ISO as being too small and too far to reach. I wanted to ask if you were fixed on the 60% size, or if a variation with wider modifiers had been considered? which would of course mean the width ends up a little nearer 65%.

This is definitely intended for a 60% case.

The Katana60 is different enough from a conventional layout, that a 1u shift key will really be the least challenging thing to get used to.

I'd like to re-emphasise that last phrase: '...get used to' - you will get used to the layout after a while, just as ergodox users got used to their wildly unconventional layout, and Planck users theirs.

I think with layouts such as these, a certain willingness to discard what came before is almost a pre-requisite.

Full-disclosure: I've been an ISO user all my life

[RominRonin]

Finally, an update. Sit tight, it's a big one...

Compatibility
The last prototype came in and I think the board is ready. I spotted some overlaps which lead to some changes to the compatibility. The board will now support standard MX keysets primarily, and there is an AEKii keyset compatible layout also built in to the board. I have dropped the Matias keyset compatibility. Check it out the final compatibility on KLE:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/2c5fbe25d69beb177f9701989bd6f36c

Or Here:

More

Some filing is necessary...
To be fully compatible with a standard 60% case. Take a look at this image, where I overlayed the Katana60 layout with the standard PCB mount holes (suggested by the online plate-builder tool):



Hole number 3 in the middle is exactly under a switch. The problem is solved, with no issue, by filing the switch down a little:

http://imgur.com/a/FCNFF

Group buy announcement: There will be no group buy, but...
...instead, the PCB and plate will be available to buy from CandyKeys.com. I met David from CandyKeys at a meetup in Vienna and we discussed the project. He is as enthusiastic about the Katana60 project as I am, so I'm proud announce that we will be working together to bring the Katana60 to the community.

The Switch Plate
This is what it will look like. It will support all the layouts in the compatibility section above. It will be 1.5mm, and I believe it will be brushed steel (David, can you please confirm that).


Finally, Prices
We are awaiting final quotes from various places, but early indications point to favourable prices relative to existing 60% PCBs. This is where it helps to have CandyKeys on board, since they can afford to stock a larger quantity than we could expect to get in a GB, which heps us all!

More to follow in the comming days...

[RominRonin]

Oh! I forgot to add these galleries!:

Katana60 Shots (with GMK Coniferous)
http://imgur.com/a/Q3YNs

and

Katana60 with JTK orange on white.
http://imgur.com/a/MMLiB

[Trente]

Finally, an update. Sit tight, it's a big one...

Nice !

[vim_commando]

Wow, you know what I love about this?

Its like 80% of what the X-Bows keyboard does:



...but in a standard 60% footprint with 100% keycap compatibility, none of that curvy-wavy never-gonna-find-keycaps that fit nonsense.

I'm really looking forward to building one

[CandyKeys]

Wow, you know what I love about this?

Its like 80% of what the X-Bows keyboard does:

(Attachment Link)

...but in a standard 60% footprint with 100% keycap compatibility, none of that curvy-wavy never-gonna-find-keycaps that fit nonsense.

I'm really looking forward to building one

We are as excited as you are Details coming soon on release date and pricing. We will be offering full kits too.

[Sylvester]

 look great

[Trente]

Curious how things are going now? I think CandyKeys is a bit busy on GMK Ellipse these days.

[CandyKeys]

Curious how things are going now? I think CandyKeys is a bit busy on GMK Ellipse these days.

Not busy at all! We are working hard on CAD drawings for the KATANA case which BTW looks AMAZING.

The PCBs are complete, they will be shipped by the end of the week. The Plate prototype pictures are coming soon, we are picking the plates up this week or next week as well. Then the case will take about 3 weeks or more depending on how it goes.

[CandyKeys]

Update -

We will be offering the product in the following formats -

- Kit
- Plate
- PCB
- Case
- Complete Keyboard

You will be able to select the keyboard with a range of BOX and Speed Kaihl Switches, Gateron Switches and eventually hopefully coming Cherry switches. Prices are still to be confirmed.

[clorex]

Update -

We will be offering the product in the following formats -

- Kit
- Plate
- PCB
- Case
- Complete Keyboard

You will be able to select the keyboard with a range of BOX and Speed Kaihl Switches, Gateron Switches and eventually hopefully coming Cherry switches. Prices are still to be confirmed.

Will Holtites be compatible?

[dr-slump]

Will the case be available separately? I'd really need an additional for my my Hasu Alps build.

Grüße aus der Pfalz!

[CandyKeys]

Will the case be available separately? I'd really need an additional for my my Hasu Alps build.

Grüße aus der Pfalz!

The case will be available separately. We will be releasing CANDY[BAR] Cases really soon that will be somewhat the same.

[Trente]

Will the case be available separately? I'd really need an additional for my my Hasu Alps build.

Grüße aus der Pfalz!

The case will be available separately. We will be releasing CANDY[BAR] Cases really soon that will be somewhat the same.

Hope there could soon be some nice case randering pictures!

[RominRonin]

As the Katana60 nears launch, I've been working on an improved default layout, although I'm a Colemak user, the default layout will be QWERTY for all the unconverted masses

Default layer -


Extend layer -


Num Lock layer -


Function/Space Fn layer -


DEFAULT layer
This will also be available in Colemak.

The beauty of the Katana60 layout is that pretty much every key is accessible via the home row, but there are still a good number of 'spare' or harder to reach keys which can be used as one-shot hunt-and-peck keys. Eg, in my personal layout, I use the media controls (found in the Extend layer) in the middle, instead of the navigation cluster (home, end, page up/down etc).

Of course it is possible to use a 'traditional' arrow cluster arrangement (bottom right) or the central location (as in the original post). The firmware is based on QMK, so its fully customiseable.

EXTEND layer
Currently under development over at the Colemak forum. I'd say the right hand is nearly there, and the left hand is subject to changes before launch

NUM-LOCK layer
This could be shifted 2 steps over to the right, so the numbers 4, 5 and 6 align with the hand in the home row position, I just like the fact that the '0 Ins' and 'Num Lock' keys line up perfectly for this position!

FUNCTION layer
I have been using the space key as [tap = space, or tap-hold = functino layer modifier], some may prefer to remove the layer modifier option. In this case I would suggest moving the Fn key (currently on the bottom left of the default layer) to the middle of the bottom row (where the shift key currently lives). Then you'd have a space key on the bottom left


Please let me know your thoughts on the above, I'd love to hear your feedback.

[menuhin]

As the Katana60 nears launch, I've been working on an improved default layout, although I'm a Colemak user, the default layout will be QWERTY for all the unconverted masses

Default layer -

Show Image

... ...

Please let me know your thoughts on the above, I'd love to hear your feedback.

I am really excited about the Katana60, I think this is one of the adventures towards ergo-friendly boards in the correct direction, but I am having a mixed feeling: None of my keycap sets can fit:

1. Row 3 (counting down from the number row) has these 1.25u caps - do these R3 1.25u caps exist - with the correct profile? And where can I get them?
And there is no way to get them correctly sublim-dyed or double-shot, I believe, not at the moment.

2. For those (like me) who are also seeking caps with correct legends, will there be some hope for us? e.g. the 1u shift caps, and the 1.25u caps on Row 3 (such as, Tab, Delete, and Enter, and I will forget about the 1.25u Page up for the time being).

Please don't get me wrong.
I like and and I am even considering to get one, but please, please let us have the possibility to obtain "correct" key caps, at least correct at the profile level, e.g. Cherry / Gateron profile.

P.s. If you change the R3 "Delete" and R3 "PgUp" to be 1u keys (or allow such a 1u-key setting in the middle), there will be a 0.5u space in the middle, enough for a Trackpoint to be installed.

[Darknight00z]

What is the current ETA on this GB?

Launch in Jan 2018?

[RominRonin]

Hi Darknight00z, it's no longer a group buy, but will be available to buy from CandyKeys.com more details coming very soon.

*Hopefully* it'll be ready to buy in time for the meetup in Vienna on the 26th, otherwise very early December looks likely.

I'm using one daily at work and at home - it's worth the wait!

[clickityClackity]

Hi Darknight00z, it's no longer a group buy, but will be available to buy from CandyKeys.com more details coming very soon.

*Hopefully* it'll be ready to buy in time for the meetup in Vienna on the 26th, otherwise very early December looks likely.

I'm using one daily at work and at home - it's worth the wait!

Haven't chimed in but I've been watching closely. One of my favorite custom layouts is a split layout on a non-splitsplit keyboard (pictures are the same keyboard with different caps). Can't wait for this to be available!!

[josefadamcik]

I am enjoying my katana60 right now and I like it. But I think a split version would be also nice. Is a split version still being considered?

[RominRonin]

I am enjoying my katana60 right now and I like it. But I think a split version would be also nice. Is a split version still being considered?

A split version is indeed nice. I started prototyping again at Christmas - I'm working on two alternatives, one of which would be a Katana60 V2, the other would be a split Katana. Expect a post about the two designs soon.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[funderburker]

I am enjoying my katana60 right now and I like it. But I think a split version would be also nice. Is a split version still being considered?

A split version is indeed nice. I started prototyping again at Christmas - I'm working on two alternatives, one of which would be a Katana60 V2, the other would be a split Katana. Expect a post about the two designs soon.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I've been thinking about Katana for a while now but can't quite pull the trigger on it (sorry!). But let's see how V2 and split Katana looks like 

[RominRonin]

You can contribute to the discussion, I just posted a thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99136.0;topicseen

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