My road to custom - Current stage: Searching for a new manufacturer

[kawasaki161]

Hi all,

I started working on designing a keyboard a while ago and worked on it on and off for a bit. The first idea was a very special kind of 65% board which I might post more about in the future. The thing was, that I didn't really want to get into PCB design right now and think that getting a usable 3D model that uses a common PCB and running a GB for it would be enough of a challenge for now.

That puts us to the next step. What do I even want to make, or even better, what isn't "commonly" made but does still use a common PCB? I could just do another classic TKL, but there are tons of them, especially now, so I doubt that many people would be interested, and not hitting MOQ would be devastating. Soo, what other PCB's are commonly available? There are some Leeku PCB's that should be somewhat easy to get in GB quantities, but I prefer something that supports QMK and TMK, so those aren't it. Anything else? Well, yes, 60%. Even though it seems like EVERYTHING has already been done more than often enough in that formfactor there is something that is very rare. Top mount cases. Thanks to the popularity of the Pok3r most cases are Pok3r compatible, meaning they are tray mount. I personally LOVE top mount cases for their typing feel, so it makes me sad to see so little of them in circulation, and when I see them they are very expensive, OTDs and KMACs are considered the holy grail of Korean customs, so they of course are very pricy. The X60 and Duck Viper/Eagle also both are over $300 before shipping.

I want to make it more affordable while still being relatively heavy and offering a sleek and simple design. Which brings us to the next point, originality. I don't care about that, the main points in my design are affordability and simplicity. I still would like to not offend too many people. Which is why I scrapped the design with 8mm top and bottom bezels and 3mm side bezels which in the end was a bit too similar to the X60 for me (more about that later). Here is an album of the scrapped design in different stages(http://imgur.com/a/qJlhP).

\Edit1
So, being me I just started working on it after thinking about what to do, so I just played around in Autodesk Fusion 360 for a while. After some time fiddling around I was able to make my first render:

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This was faaar from being finished, but it felt like I accomplished something and was a very special moment. After this render I started taking some measurements and double checking stuff, which made me realize that I somehow ****ed up the plate drawing (something among the lines of angles that were ever so slightly off) which I used as a base to create the rest of the case, so I redid everything *yaay*. After I spent waay too much time redoing everything I tried adding a hole for the USB port, then I realized something was not right:

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Well fk. Seems like I totally forgot about the USB when I did the design for the plate mounting points.. well so I redid everything again (wohoo). And ended up with this through re positioning of the mounting points:

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Now the problem with this was, that I was told that the positioning of the mounting holes was suboptimal due to the large distance between the corners of the plate and the mounting tabs... You guessed it. Redid it again which made me end up with this:

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Around at that time I also changed the case from the thing that was insanely similar to the X60 to the version with the constant 8mm bezel which is used in the current design which you will see enough of after this edit ends. There is still this one thing bothering me, and it is not being able to chamfer the edges of the top case to my liking. I want to make everything except the part where it mates with the bottom case (I'll leave that one out to get a smaller gap) chamfered. The thing is the only part I can chamfer with the normal chamfer tool is the sides making it look like this:

The thing is that I would like to have it go around the corners as well and then fade out, like it was done on the new LZ TKL

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. But I haven't figured out how I can get it done like this yet.

Edit1 end/

I'll continue my writeup and add more renders of details later. The next paragraph is about the current stage of the case and the plans, thanks for reading this.

Right now the base is done. I decided to add compatibility for the ALPS64 PCB (and will offer at least one ALPS plate option in the possible GB). I decided to add a weight and chose the cheapest way to add it to the design while still adding some aesthetic to the board, a cutout in the bottom which houses the weight which is just a 3mm thick plate cut to size. In order to not be too close to the other designs in this category I decided to add some overhang to the left and right side and make the bezel 8mm to all sides. Here is a link to the current Album (http://imgur.com/a/iY7Wq) as well as two renders:



What does the future hold? Well the main reason of this post is to get some general feedback before I post an IC, so I'd appreciate it if you take your time to write out your thoughts about it. Please point out obvious flaws, maybe they are obvious for you, but they maybe aren't for me, either because I don't know better, or because I just overlooked them. There are also a lot of other things I still have to do before I feel confident in posting an IC, I'll just list a few of them now and will add to them if something comes to mind later:
-find out about the legal stuff I have to consider when running a GB from germany, like taxes and stuff // Need to update my PayPal account with some info, might need to close it and open a new one
-add custom feet and find someplace that will produce them Too much work, I'll either try finding the source on the feet Duck is using or I'll just use standard bumpons
-either decide on keeping the edge of the overhang like it is or finding a nice way too partially chamfer the edge (Autodesk Fusion 360 only has messy workarounds). DONE, thanks dubberrome!!
-find a factory that would cooperate with me, this is a very crucial point, as I have no contacts in the maker scene but would really love to work with a factory that has experience with keyboards. I will probably need a hookup on this, and I would REALLY appreciate any help in this regard. // Basically done
-get a prototype made to make sure everything fits, etc.  // First prototype ordered
-get quotes for everything in order to calculate pricing for a future GB  // Currently talking to manufacturers

Some of this stuff is a long shot and some is probably very far in the future, but I just wanted to write it down so I don't forget.

Thank you for reading this far, and thank you even more if you decide to comment or maybe even decide to contact me.

[stoic-lemon]

I like the design. Is there a way for the plate and PCB to be raised off the base? I can't tell from the renders.

[kawasaki161]

I like the design. Is there a way for the plate and PCB to be raised off the base? I can't tell from the renders.

Thank you.

Yes there is a way for the plate and PCB to be raised off the base. As you can see here:

The plate is screwed to the top of the case. Looking at it from a different angle

you can see that there is some space between the place the plate mounts to and the end of the top, where the base would begin. In fact, it's about 10mm of space which should in theory be enough to house the plate and PCB. Taking in to consideration that the distance between the beginning of the plate to the beginning of the PCB is 5mm in Cherry applications (4.5mm in Alps applications) and guessing that the soldered PCB should not be thicker than 4mm (minus the UCB port, as that has it's own cutout) there is still 1mm of room for the plate to flex. The assumed 4mm soldered PCB thickness is still rather high, considering the thickest part of my PCBs (again not counting the USB port) are Holtites (if I used them) which are 3.5mm long. If it turns out that this is too little space I will most likely realize that in the prototype stage and can make changes accordingly.

[stoic-lemon]

Ah that's much clearer. I can understand how that works as I have a TX1800 that I think uses a similar system.

Kind of off topic, but how long did it take you to design this case? I'm going to guess that you're no beginner using the software.

[kawasaki161]

Kind of off topic, but how long did it take you to design this case? I'm going to guess that you're no beginner using the software.

I'm a total beginner with CAD and especially this program. Counting in all scrapped designs I'd say it took me about one and a half weeks. Most of that time was spent trying to figure out the program itself, and redoing the whole thing around 4 times. The major revisions were at first when I forgot about the USB port when designing the plate, so the USB cutout was not compatible with the plate mouting:


Then I moved the mounting points so there would be no such collision:

But I was later told that the positioning of the outer mounting points might be too far from either side of the plate, which might cause a bit too much flex. So I had to redo it again and came up with what you now saw in the post above.
I'm also currently in the process of preparing for and writing my exams (one done four to go), so I wasn't able to spend too much time on it in the last few days.

[joey]

Would staggered mounting points introduce more or less flex?

[Blackhawk]

I'm curious to know what makes this design less expensive than, say, the X60

And it should be possible to chamfer only the left and right edge of the top housing using the chamfer tool in Fusion (I might be wrong)

[kawasaki161]

Would staggered mounting points introduce more or less flex?

This is a very interesting question I am not able to confidently answer.

It definitely depends on the implementation, point of reference and at which place/how you measure flex.

If we set the distance between the mounting points as a static number and define that measure of distance as one Unit, moving the lower mounting points by half a unit to achieve a u/2 stagger would mean that we would have one less mounting point in the bottom and definitely more flex on the bottom corners. If we stay inside the triangle created by two of the top mounting holes and one of the bottom mounting hole we would probably have a more even distribution of load between the mounting points compared to using a non staggered method which would create a rectangle which would cause a different load distribution.
As I've said, I simply don't know the correct answer, but it is definitely a different perspective that isn't really often considered in customs released, maybe there is a reason for it, maybe no one tried it yet, I don't know.

I'm curious to know what makes this design less expensive than, say, the X60

1: It is less complex, especially the bottom case. The bottom is basically a wedge with a cutout for a weight that can be cut from a plate of (material) and the USB port. The X60 uses a milled weight and has more complex cutouts, for example: an inner lip, the weight cutout goes through the whole bottom, the clearence for the PCB is also partially created within the bottom.
2: My profit margin will be low. My goal is not profit, my goal is to learn about this, to create something and to share it. Ofc I don't want to go through this hassle for free which should be understandable, but as a student who has a lot of free time I can value my time lower than the time of someone who may or may not have a well paying job. This is not meant to become a business, that would be delusional to think.
3: According to Xondat the price he paid to the factory was very high because it was essentially a trial. His X75 is now a lot cheaper.

Edit:
Edited the last part in order to not antagonize Xondat and to include some info he gave to me after reading this.

[stoic-lemon]

Wow OK, well that is impressive then lol.

[kawasaki161]

I updated the OP with more of my journey.

Wow OK, well that is impressive then lol.

Thanks.

[kawasaki161]

I just reworked the USB hole a little. Before:


After:


There still is a little more space on the left, but that is to ensure compatibility with the batch of Alps64 PCBs where the USB port was a little more on the left. The rest has a healthy bit of wiggle room to make sure there are no compatibility issues whatsoever.

I'll do the Cherry plate next, do you guys want switch top opening compatibility or nah?

[kawasaki161]

Hah, guess who had to redo the USB port again? Yeah, that's right, me.

I got my Alps64 PCB today, so I was able to take some better measurements. While the general position of the USB port is the same as in other 60% PCBs there is a difference though... see for yourself:

See that extra bit of material that supports the USB port? I did a quick and dirty mockup of it on a test piece I made in the CAD program, and who would have guessed it? There are problems:

The test piece was a bit too large in this shot, the left side was actually fine, but the right did not fit at all and another part not visible in this pic also didn't fit. So I thought screw it and made the cutout fit this PCB and normal PCBs that are in spec, but not the very old versions of the Alps64 with the offset USB port, mainly because that would **** with the way it is filleted.
Well, here is the hopefully last revision of that, if I have to go any further to the outside I have to redo the plate mounting again, which I would prefer not to.

[tobsn]

What did you use to import the PCB?

[kawasaki161]

What did you use to import the PCB?

I didn't import the PCB. I used the measurements of the standard sized GH60 (1.6mm thick):


To make the base. Then I found a model of a mini USB port which I added to the base model. I also took the horizontal positioning of the USB port from the GH60 data and doublechecked with the Alps64. To get the vertical USB placement I used the Alps64 PCB and a caliper. I adjusted the placement of the USB model on the PCB model base according to these values. The support part was also measured with a caliper and then added to the PCB model afterwards.

[kawasaki161]

Thanks to dubberrome I was finally able to do the chamfer on the case just how I wanted it, here are pics:

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I've also come up with an idea for the ALPS plate options. I want to only offer 2 layout options in order to keep prices down, one of them is the AEK layout, the plate is based on Hasu's files which are tested and should work. The second one is a standard 60% layout (like on the V60). But this comes with a problem since there are two different types of stabilizers used in the keycaps. Signature Plastics uses Cherry stabilizers and Tai-Hao/Matias/KBP use Cherry stabilizers for the spacebar and ALPS stabilizers for the modifiers. This is bad, because it is not possible to create a plate that supports both Costar and ALPS stabilizers (let alone Cherry and ALPS stabilizers). But luckily (I hope) Matias showed pictures of some inserts for ALPS stabilizers that make them usable with Costar stabilizers. These are mainly used for spacebars, but looking at it they should also fit with 2.25u caps. I wrote them an e-mail showing my interest and hope that they are interested in selling them as a standalone piece. This still leaves me with the right shift to cover, but there the spacing allows for a cutout for both ALPS and Costar stabilizers, so I don't see any problems there.
Here is a quick mockup of that plate:

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I also came up with a plate design that would support the Banana Split PCB, I hope I can offer these for the GB. Right now I just assumed the stabilizer orientation, but here is a mockup of that:

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Next up is something rather big. I think I am now at a state where I can think about prototyping. I'll contact a few manufacturers about that soon and will open an IC once I've got the proto in.
The law stuff is also going on well. I'll soon talk to our tax guy, but if everything turns out alright I will be able to run this GB and without a problem and without much paperwork (mainly got something to do with me not doing this regularly and stuff).
I also am getting material samples for the feet soon, this is not yet integrated in the design but will be once I've decided on what exactly I will use.

[tobsn]

Thanks to dubberrome I was finally able to do the chamfer on the case just how I wanted it, here are pics:

what exactly was wrong with it or is special about what you did differently now? the clean cut to the horizontal lines?

[kawasaki161]

Thanks to dubberrome I was finally able to do the chamfer on the case just how I wanted it, here are pics:

what exactly was wrong with it or is special about what you did differently now? the clean cut to the horizontal lines?

The main difference is that I was now able to chamfer the overhanging part around the filleted corners and have the chamfer fade out before the top and bottom piece mate together. With the standard chamfer tool I was only able to either go all the way around (which would create a visual gap in the mating area) or only the sides like it is the case here:

[ReadmeDotTxt]

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Hey. So, hope this doesn't cause too much trouble for you, but you will have to make some adjustments to your USB port. The fillet you have on the vertical edges of your usb cutout are impossible to machine the way you have them modeled. The tools the machinists will use to create the fillet look like


These end mils are circular, so you effectively end up with a rotating cutting area that creates your fillet. When a machinist goes to make the radius on your part as it is drawn, he/she will not be able to make it end in a sharp corner like you have shown. When the end mill is at either end of the line, it will begin to cut into the edge perpendicular to the direction it is travelling. The way I see it, you have a few options. I highly recommend the first one.

Option 1, Continuous Fillet- Add a fillet to the horizontal edges. If you want an edge that has a fillet all the way around, you'll have to add a fillet the the inside corners of the cutout as well.
Option 2, Disappearing Radius - You can keep your design with the vertical fillets, but the beginning and end of the line will not have the fillet. Depending on the diameter of the end mill, you will have some curvature where the end mill begins the cut. I can make some pictures later today if it helps.
Option 3, Chamfer - Chamfer the outside profile of the usb cutout instead filleting. It may reduce the price a bit.

By the way, this applies for all of your vertical-only fillets on the usb cutout.

I'm more than happy to check your design to make sure it can be machined easily. It will help reduce the cost and time talking with the shop. Here's a youtube video that goes over design for manufacturing (DFM) fundamentals.

[kawasaki161]

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Show Image

Hey. So, hope this doesn't cause too much trouble for you, but you will have to make some adjustments to your USB port. The fillet you have on the vertical edges of your usb cutout are impossible to machine the way you have them modeled. The tools the machinists will use to create the fillet look like
(Attachment Link)

These end mils are circular, so you effectively end up with a rotating cutting area that creates your fillet. When a machinist goes to make the radius on your part as it is drawn, he/she will not be able to make it end in a sharp corner like you have shown. When the end mill is at either end of the line, it will begin to cut into the edge perpendicular to the direction it is travelling. The way I see it, you have a few options. I highly recommend the first one.

Option 1, Continuous Fillet- Add a fillet to the horizontal edges. If you want an edge that has a fillet all the way around, you'll have to add a fillet the the inside corners of the cutout as well.
Option 2, Disappearing Radius - You can keep your design with the vertical fillets, but the beginning and end of the line will not have the fillet. Depending on the diameter of the end mill, you will have some curvature where the end mill begins the cut. I can make some pictures later today if it helps.
Option 3, Chamfer - Chamfer the outside profile of the usb cutout instead filleting. It may reduce the price a bit.

By the way, this applies for all of your vertical-only fillets on the usb cutout.

I'm more than happy to check your design to make sure it can be machined easily. It will help reduce the cost and time talking with the shop. Here's a youtube video that goes over design for manufacturing (DFM) fundamentals.

Thanks a lot for this. Even though I don't quite get how this is not machineable with a flat end bit I'm very thankful for you taking your time to inform me about the problems you see here.

I can see how this would be impossible to do with a one-piece case, but I don't seem to be able to see the problems of doing this on a 2 part case like this, especially because I have seen this being used in TX-series keyboards, like here:

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Here is another angle on the cutout in the bottom half of the case:

My thought process was that this should be machineable with a flat end mill from the top:

With the mill creating the fillet by removing the material around that radius instead of using a filleting tool from a different angle.
My assumption could be completely wrong though, and I hope that you can explain to me why this wouldn't be possible and how the cutouts in the example of the TX boards were made.

[ReadmeDotTxt]

Ahhh, got it. Definitely doable with a two piece design. Forgot about that part. Looking good! 

[kawasaki161]

Let's wait and see.

[kawasaki161]

Well, this one didn't work out, see for yourselves:
http://imgur.com/a/mUTsF

[stoic-lemon]

Aww that's really disappointing. Hope you're not too​ bummed out. What do you think was the issue? Just poor manufacturing?

[kawasaki161]

Aww that's really disappointing. Hope you're not too​ bummed out. What do you think was the issue? Just poor manufacturing?

I've had/am having one of the worst (extended) weeks of my life right now. Compared to the death of my dog on Friday this is nothing.

I think the issue was poor manufacturing, finishing and bad handling.
Right now I think I'll assemble this as soon as I have the parts, to make sure that I notice every problem and then I'll order a sample from somewhere else if I don't find any major flaws. If I find flaws I'll fix those ofc.

[ramnes]

Ouch, good luck! You seem on the good way, just make sure that the scratches are the only problem on the prototype. The renders are promising!

[ReadmeDotTxt]

Here's toward a better vendor next time 

[SJHL]

Aww that's really disappointing. Hope you're not too​ bummed out. What do you think was the issue? Just poor manufacturing?

I've had/am having one of the worst (extended) weeks of my life right now. Compared to the death of my dog on Friday this is nothing.

I think the issue was poor manufacturing, finishing and bad handling.
Right now I think I'll assemble this as soon as I have the parts, to make sure that I notice every problem and then I'll order a sample from somewhere else if I don't find any major flaws. If I find flaws I'll fix those ofc.

Sorry to hear about your dog. Atleast from my point of view, based on the pictures, the case doesn't look too bad. Hoepfully you dont run into many issues when assembling it.

Will be following this thread!

[Unforgivable]

This looks amazing! Please keep us updated! I'd be interested for sure!

[kawasaki161]

Sooo, assembled most of it (still waiting for the right caps) and used TaiHao caps for a first test.
Well, I hope it's the switches (Orange ALPS) in combination with the thin plate that are the troublemakers, but it is pinging really bad in some places. I'll wait for the real caps to arrive and will lube every spring and hope for the best.
Fitment worked out well though and the height of the lip is perfect for these caps. I can probably make the USB hole a bit smaller, but I don't think that it looks too bad, so I'll probably leave it as is.
Assembled weight is 1833g which is plenty for the size. In comparison my Duck Black Bird with steel plate weighs 1894g assembled.

Other than that I'll have to order the next sample from a different manufacturer a bit later (probably around mid May), had some stuff happen with my car and have to get that sorted out before I can continue with this.

[kawasaki161]

Update:
This is taking a bit longer than I thought it would. But it's my fault.
Ever since I got the really bad prototype and them telling me to find someone else if I don't like it (in a rather rude tone, well, as rude as text can be) I'm having problems with trusting manufacturers I find on Alibaba. At the end of the day I'm paying for the prototypes, and I csn't afford another failure.
On top of that I also saw the debacle that is happening in the X60 buy right now, I'd be pretty f'd if I end up with someone that does something like that to me.

Right now this is on hold until I find someone I can trust :/