Headphone Thread.

[litster]

Considering that we all are biased into mech boards here, its pretty easy to relate with that. If I was to come in here preaching that membranes are just as easy to type fast on as mechanicals, and that everything we like here is a ridiculous waste of money and we're slaves to SP, CClack and EK etc, we'd all be in an uproar over it. In the end, we're a community of enthusiasts, and so are they.

I can see that.  I can perceive the differences between different keyboards and switches that are tens or hundreds of dollars aport.  I can't perceive the differences between high end hifi gear that are thousands of dollars apart.  Not yet anyway.

For example with the Sennheiser HD800, the gauge of the cable isn't thick enough to carry the proper current for the bass response, so upgrading from the stock cable helps significantly. This is something I noted universally so I can say that with confidence. I hope that makes sense.

I have been reading and other articles and DIY instructions on building my two cMoyBB amps to match voltage, current, and gain for low and high impedance headphones.  HD 800 is a high impedance headphones at 300 ohms.  it needs more voltage for higher volume.  For low impedance headphones like IEMs and or headphones (30 ohms or so) designed to work directly with portable music players that don't provide high voltage, you need higher current supply.

Anyhow, you would think Sennheiser would have the correct matching cables for its $1,500 pair of headphones.

[mkawa]

thank you for acknowledging that the jds stuff is a commercial product. yes, for a commercial product, jds is out there with far more transparency than most of these audiophile shops. but, as a diy type, nwavguy/jds are an insult to the open friendly diy community that used to exist.

anyway something that has been bugging me since i heard about this whole hubbub; who is nwavguy anyway?

[Ragnorock]

I can see that.  I can perceive the differences between different keyboards and switches that are tens or hundreds of dollars aport.  I can't perceive the differences between high end hifi gear that are thousands of dollars apart.  Not yet anyway.



I have been reading and other articles and DIY instructions on building my two cMoyBB amps to match voltage, current, and gain for low and high impedance headphones.  HD 800 is a high impedance headphones at 300 ohms.  it needs more voltage for higher volume.  For low impedance headphones like IEMs and or headphones (30 ohms or so) designed to work directly with portable music players that don't provide high voltage, you need higher current supply.

Anyhow, you would think Sennheiser would have the correct matching cables for its $1,500 pair of headphones.

You're damn right, I mean really Sennheiser? I meant voltage... I think. Too much group buy shiz going around in my head to think too hard about that at the moment. XD

But its the same principle as to why you need heavy duty (like 12 gauge) extension cables when you're drawing a lot of amps using a power hungry piece of equipment.

[mkawa]

electricity: A SERIES OF TUBES

[Netdewt]

I have Grado SR-125 (had them for about 10 years) and just got a set of Fostex T20RP, modding soon.

[laffindude]

Use monoprice interconnect cables until you have the discretionary income to the point of where you want to be able to point out your pretentious cables that look awesomer. For actual headphone cables though, you can hear noticeable difference by upgrading the cable if it isn't matched to the cans. For example with the Sennheiser HD800, the gauge of the cable isn't thick enough to carry the proper current for the bass response, so upgrading from the stock cable helps significantly. This is something I noted universally so I can say that with confidence. I hope that makes sense.

Sorry, that sounds like FUD in the highest degree. We're talking few milliamps of current here. The cables are more than sufficient.
There are also univerally accepted notion that silver cable sounds brighter, yet no one has been able to demonstrate the ability to ABX it yet.

[Netdewt]

Cable modding has gotten out of control in the audio world for sure. People upgrade their power cables and claim it makes a difference in the sound.

I did upgrade my speaker cables on the stereo from very old, crappy 26ga repurposed "wire" to 10ga cable from Blue Jeans and thought that there was a noticeable difference in the sound, however.

One place that seems to make sense to me, if anywhere, is the cable for a turntable because the signal is pretty weak until it's gained by the phono pre.

[litster]

According to nwavguy and jdslabs, nwavguy doesn't make any money from O2 or ODAC.  He seems to have only his reputation to defend, no money.

He is out there with numbers, repeatable numbers.  I like to see that from commercial manufacturers.

thank you for acknowledging that the jds stuff is a commercial product. yes, for a commercial product, jds is out there with far more transparency than most of these audiophile shops. but, as a diy type, nwavguy/jds are an insult to the open friendly diy community that used to exist.

anyway something that has been bugging me since i heard about this whole hubbub; who is nwavguy anyway?

I had no idea yesterday who you were thanking since you did't quote.  Then I read the last few posts again today.  No, I mean I would like to see other commercial manufacturers back up their products with numbers and tables and used tested methods to prove what they claim is repeatable by other people, like nwavguy and jdslabs do.

mkawa, I would like to see some examples from you to demonstrate why nwavguy and jdslabs are an insult to the open friendly DIY community that doesn't exist any more.  I come in late and don't know the history behind it.

I sent over 6 emails to John at jdslabs for many noob questions and he answered every one of them, most within minutes, a couple within a few hours late at night or over the weekend.

[litster]

I have been reading and other articles and DIY instructions on building my two cMoyBB amps to match voltage, current, and gain for low and high impedance headphones.  HD 800 is a high impedance headphones at 300 ohms.  it needs more voltage for higher volume.  For low impedance headphones like IEMs and or headphones (30 ohms or so) designed to work directly with portable music players that don't provide high voltage, you need higher current supply.

Anyhow, you would think Sennheiser would have the correct matching cables for its $1,500 pair of headphones.

You're damn right, I mean really Sennheiser? I meant voltage... I think. Too much group buy shiz going around in my head to think too hard about that at the moment. XD

But its the same principle as to why you need heavy duty (like 12 gauge) extension cables when you're drawing a lot of amps using a power hungry piece of equipment.

No, I mean why isn't the cable that comes with the hd 800 isn't enough for a $1,500 pair of headphones?  You mean Ferrari sold you a supercar and it comes with bicycle wheels?

[mkawa]

here's how the first run of PPA boards ended up being made

http://www.head-fi.org/t/27735/ppa-project-announcement

it was a collaborative design. the core designers came up with some design principles and a prototype. the rest was collaborative with the community. absolutely everything was open. design choices were explained, alternatives were proposed and explored, everyone built variants, everyone had fun

kevin gilmore's original article on the dynalo circuit: http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/projects/showfile.php?file=gilmore3_prj.htm

numerous pcbs and designs have been based off of that articles over the last 10 years. kevin has assisted wherever he can and whenever asked on those projects without taking a dime. iirc the only time he's ever taken money was when headamp directly commercialized the design as a finished product and (more importantly) put his name on it.

these are the people that nwavguy disparages (and not just on his page, there are forum posts that are most likely due to him going back years) as "doing it all wrong". meanwhile, he won't publish his real name, his newest design is not open, etc.

[Maarten]

Cable modding has gotten out of control in the audio world for sure.

LIES! This is great value for money! :music:

[Parak]

So an interesting thing about headphone cables is that the general principle is not too different from speaker cables, which have of course gathered quite a bit of "controversy". What they both boil down to, though, is Ohm's Law. To try and put it simply, there are essentially three factors involved:

1. A given impedance of your speaker/headphone (in ohms)
2. Resistance in the cable which increases the thinner and/or longer it is (also in ohms)
3. Potential output of your amplifier (in volts)

Due to the law, your total power that goes out to the speaker/headphone depends on all three of them. The less total resistance/impedance, the more power will get through. This is why 2 and 4 ohm speakers are easier to drive than 8 ohm speakers, and same goes for headphones where 32 ohm impedance is easier than 300 or 600 ohm impedance. The purpose of a cable is to provide as little in-between resistance as possible, as significant additional resistance will reduce the power that the amp is able to supply. Thick gauge and small lengths are needed for small impedance with large power outputs. There are plenty of numbers already floating around for speakers, such as this excellent article by one of McIntosh engineers.

For headphones, the same effect applies. However, the required power to drive headphones is far less than what would be needed for speakers. Moreso as per the above, the required cable thickness goes /DOWN/ as the impedance goes /UP/. Think of the headphone impedance as an obstruction at the end of a hose - you can increase the size of the hose all you want, but since the flow through it remains the same (what the amp supplies), your total output flow does not change.

The resistance of a wire of a given gauge and length is easy enough to calculate for standard copper, and there are plenty of calculators for that. It's recommended that the total resistance of the wire be no more than 5% of the system impedance. The link above just about halves that even further on the safe side. For HD800, which is 300 ohm impedance, you'd want a cable that has a total resistance of no more than 7.5 ohms. As per this calculator one can easily get away with using 30 awg wire (VERY thin) over a distance of 50 feet (lawl). So no, thicker cables (assuming they have thicker copper) won't do anything for headphones outside of some truly bizarre cases like running a cable over a few miles.

TL;DR: Due to basic physics, premium cables that are marketed as means of improving sound for either speakers or headphones are complete bunk. There is however some value in having nice cables that are more durable or flexible, but those can be had at a modest price increase over lamp cord.

[Ragnorock]

So an interesting thing about headphone cables is that the general principle is not too different from speaker cables, which have of course gathered quite a bit of "controversy". What they both boil down to, though, is Ohm's Law. To try and put it simply, there are essentially three factors involved:

1. A given impedance of your speaker/headphone (in ohms)
2. Resistance in the cable which increases the thinner and/or longer it is (also in ohms)
3. Potential output of your amplifier (in volts)

Due to the law, your total power that goes out to the speaker/headphone depends on all three of them. The less total resistance/impedance, the more power will get through. This is why 2 and 4 ohm speakers are easier to drive than 8 ohm speakers, and same goes for headphones where 32 ohm impedance is easier than 300 or 600 ohm impedance. The purpose of a cable is to provide as little in-between resistance as possible, as significant additional resistance will reduce the power that the amp is able to supply. Thick gauge and small lengths are needed for small impedance with large power outputs. There are plenty of numbers already floating around for speakers, such as this excellent article by one of McIntosh engineers.

For headphones, the same effect applies. However, the required power to drive headphones is far less than what would be needed for speakers. Moreso as per the above, the required cable thickness goes /DOWN/ as the impedance goes /UP/. Think of the headphone impedance as an obstruction at the end of a hose - you can increase the size of the hose all you want, but since the flow through it remains the same (what the amp supplies), your total output flow does not change.

The resistance of a wire of a given gauge and length is easy enough to calculate for standard copper, and there are plenty of calculators for that. It's recommended that the total resistance of the wire be no more than 5% of the system impedance. The link above just about halves that even further on the safe side. For HD800, which is 300 ohm impedance, you'd want a cable that has a total resistance of no more than 7.5 ohms. As per this calculator one can easily get away with using 30 awg wire (VERY thin) over a distance of 50 feet (lawl). So no, thicker cables (assuming they have thicker copper) won't do anything for headphones outside of some truly bizarre cases like running a cable over a few miles.

TL;DR: Due to basic physics, premium cables that are marketed as means of improving sound for either speakers or headphones are complete bunk. There is however some value in having nice cables that are more durable or flexible, but those can be had at a modest price increase over lamp cord.

Well what about transitioning to a silver cable, which is what the aftermarket cables are.

[Parak]

Well what about transitioning to a silver cable, which is what the aftermarket cables are.

Silver is about 5-10% more conductive than copper, which means that you can have a cable thinner or longer by that amount and still have same results. So if a 50 foot silver cable of gauge X is of the recommended resistance, then you'd want a 45 foot cable of gauge X made of copper to meet same resistance. Alternatively, instead of the 5% of impedance figure mentioned, one could instead use 6.2% or so to calculate required wire gauge on the copper wire calculator.

So how much one would pay to get 5-10% more conductivity? 5-10% more? 20%? Nah, about 13,000% more, based on the recent prices for copper and silver.

[Ragnorock]

Interesting insight. Actually it makes me want to try it to see if I notice a difference. I'm pretty aware of the placebo effect when comparing gear so I could provide some feedback on whether the physics actually back up the subjective nature of audio preference. (Also just agree with me so I have an excuse to buy HD800s) XD

[Parak]

Well, speakers and headphones are definitely more subjective than objective, in both sound and comfort. I personally would prefer the rest of my gear to be firmly in the objective camp, which in order of potentially decreasing subjectivity (based on how much they /might/ change the sound signature), is amp -> dac -> interconnects. So I'd rather have uncolored sound by the first two devices there, and if I want, then I'd use a software EQ to fine tune it which is better than changing out the amp/dac entirely.

On that basis, premium is worth it if you personally like the comfort and sound signature of particular headphones or speakers. Not quite at all worth as much for proper amp/dac combo to match, and definitely not for cables. Of course, price/performance does affect this at some point - do $10,000 Stax phones sound 100 times better than ATH-AD700? Do I care if I'm a billionaire?

If you want to test cables, you'd ideally want to at least make sure that you have no way of telling which cables are currently connected

[Netdewt]

Silver is about 5-10% more conductive than copper, which means that you can have a cable thinner or longer by that amount and still have same results. So if a 50 foot silver cable of gauge X is of the recommended resistance, then you'd want a 45 foot cable of gauge X made of copper to meet same resistance. Alternatively, instead of the 5% of impedance figure mentioned, one could instead use 6.2% or so to calculate required wire gauge on the copper wire calculator.

So how much one would pay to get 5-10% more conductivity? 5-10% more? 20%? Nah, about 13,000% more, based on the recent prices for copper and silver.

A higher gauge copper cable is also more conducive.

I like this article @ Blue Jeans:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/what-does-wire-gage-mean.htm

Also, as seen today in my office:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 52064[/ATTACH]

[laffindude]

No, I mean why isn't the cable that comes with the hd 800 isn't enough for a $1,500 pair of headphones?  You mean Ferrari sold you a supercar and it comes with bicycle wheels?

Upgraditus. Stock so it must suck. Audiophiles are like that.
http://www.stereotimes.com/cables062301.shtml we're in the land of the stupid. I am still waiting for people who claims they can hear the difference to ABX these to cheap lamp cord cables.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1101/nordost.htm <- value for the money = 100.

TL;DR: Due to basic physics, premium cables that are marketed as means of improving sound for either speakers or headphones are complete bunk. There is however some value in having nice cables that are more durable or flexible, but those can be had at a modest price increase over lamp cord.

These kinda talks gets you banned from Head-Fi. Spot on though. As long as the cable is sufficiently thick for the length of the run, there are no differences. (or if there IS a difference, it means the cable is broken. Like the increased capacitance on some "audiophile cables").

[mkawa]

tbh head-fi seems to have become a pretty terrible place. it used to be that the only place you could pretend that there were differences between cables without being banned was the DBT-free forum, and the only sponsors were jan meier and headroom.

in that respect i can kind of see where some of the backlash is coming from. some of it is definitely misguided, but much of it doesn't seem to be. head-fi used to be the sane alternative to audioasylum. now, it seems the asylum mentality's taken over

[ironman31]

Head fi is too busy. Headcase isnt bad for a little info here and there, and innerfidelity is great for the technical side of things. In the end i couldnt care less what people say about cables/ dacs and what not. Either listen before you buy or buy it and eat sellbit if you dont like it.

[grave00]

tbh head-fi seems to have become a pretty terrible place. it used to be that the only place you could pretend that there were differences between cables without being banned was the DBT-free forum, and the only sponsors were jan meier and headroom.

I am a very recent user of headfi.  I didn't recall any suppression of opinions for people advocating for non-audiophile cables.  In fact, as I look at a thread on monoprice in the cabling subforum there, it's quite the opposite.  Plenty of them recommend them as just as good, with a few lamenting the stiffness.  Seems like a pretty freewheeling place to me.  I wouldn't be suprised if plenty of people there actively poo poo the idea that cables make a difference.  I think this is just misinformation.

[rknize]

There has been moderator backlash when such opinions directly attack important sponsors of headfi.

[Striketh]

Ah, I remember this thread. I originally posted in regards to having a pair of Denon D7000's. While GH was "on vacation" I picked up a pair of Grado RS2i's

Really love the contrast in sound with them. Got a pair of flat ear pads to replace the stock ones and they're really satisfying to listen to for my live, acoustic and orchestral recordings. I definitely recommend the flat ear pads, though, if you're going to pick these up as they definitely improve comfort (less pressure on your ears) and improve the quality of the bass.

[sth]

Hm, might as well post an update. I am now the proud owner of an Eric Barney headset stand... doesn't exactly go with my decor but it's nice to have something to keep my cans up in the air

[Striketh]

Hm, might as well post an update. I am now the proud owner of an Eric Barney headset stand... doesn't exactly go with my decor but it's nice to have something to keep my cans up in the air

Ah, what's it look like? I am currently hanging my headphones off this classy piece of decor:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H40UAO/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

Cheap and it's nice and heavy so 3 pairs of headphones can hang off it with ease!

I used to use a banana hanger before, but as my collection has grown it was no longer sufficient. It's amazing how I've spent well over $1,500 on headphone stuff and about $30 in total on stands

[Namkung]

First post since GH came back up!
Ordered a pair of hd800s. Should arrive early next week.
Hopefully the sound signature suits me better than my hd650s.
Will be driving them with little dot dac + mk iv se.

[laffindude]

My K550's earpads unglued itself at the seam. I had to pull it apart to get them to stick together again. Where the f do you order replacement pads?
I like how the earpads go on the K550. Just put the lip on the pads into the notch and rotate. Much less pain in the ass than Beyer. I am gonna notch my Beyer cups.

[IllegalAlien]

Bose Earpads are the worst ripoff.

[rknize]

I've been listening to the DT880 Pro's daily at work since I got them.  I'm really happy with them for casual listening levels.  They strike a nice balance between open and closed sound.  I can still hear things around me, but it's much more subdued than the Senns.  My only gripe is that they are a bit on the heavy side...built like a tank, though.  They also mess up the hair on the sides of my head. 

[JaLKne]

Do you run your DT880s through an amp? I can't wait for my little dot MK III to get here.

[rknize]

Yeah, a Fiio E17.  It can drive them just fine.  I have the 150ohm version.

[JaLKne]

Have you tired many portable amps? I've been considering that one for a while now, but it seems a bit bulky to me because I have a sansa clip+.

[Kasperb22]

Yeah, a Fiio E17.  It can drive them just fine.  I have the 150ohm version.

I have the E17 paired with an Ultrasone Pro 900. I highly recommend both!

[M0rph3us]

I have a crappy Razer Piranha that I got for super cheap, but it works. Wish I had to money to get a good headset, but alas "I am just a poor boy, nobody loves me".

[rknize]

Have you tired many portable amps? I've been considering that one for a while now, but it seems a bit bulky to me because I have a sansa clip+.

Not really.  It sounds pretty good, but the Matix at my desk at home is a little better for some reason.  My job situation may be changing later this summer, such that I'll be taking a train to/from work.  If that happens I'll probably get a cMoy or similar.

[laffindude]

Why not use your E17?

[Kronen]

Gotta love my Sennheiser 5(9)5s for a fraction of the cost :-).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQ8PzBrHXE

[mvh11]

Well what about transitioning to a silver cable, which is what the aftermarket cables are.

Silver is about 5-10% more conductive than copper, which means that you can have a cable thinner or longer by that amount and still have same results. So if a 50 foot silver cable of gauge X is of the recommended resistance, then you'd want a 45 foot cable of gauge X made of copper to meet same resistance. Alternatively, instead of the 5% of impedance figure mentioned, one could instead use 6.2% or so to calculate required wire gauge on the copper wire calculator.

So how much one would pay to get 5-10% more conductivity? 5-10% more? 20%? Nah, about 13,000% more, based on the recent prices for copper and silver.

This is the best response I've ever seen to copper vs. silver argument.

The audiophile industry is mostly full of lies. Premium cables are one of those lies. More flexible cables are the only reason to pay more, but the premium on those are ridiculous as well. I'm a believer in using power cables to run my speakers. It works great and costs next to nothing. I don't have really high end speakers, but even if I did, I wouldn't be using "better" cables.

[Christown]

I use Audio-Technica ATH-M50s hooked up to an Audioengine D1 DAC.

Awesome sound quality, highly recommend either product.

[mistakemistake]

I just use Etymotic hf3's. Nothing too exciting compared to what everyone else is rollin with.

[Rhinofeed]

I'm using the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pros, which I actually reviewed on my website! I'm using them with my Presonus AudioBox 44VSL as my audio interface (sound card), as I do voice recordings for Youtube.

[rudyzhou2]

Any ultrasone fans here for electronica

[microsoft windows]

I use a pair of Gateway2000-branded Altec Lansing computer speakers from 1997 on my main PC. They seem to get the job done OK. But I don't use much in the way of headphones.

[Anynoupy]

Nothing much compared to what I saw in here, but still, my headphones :



By Anynoupy.



Steelseries Siberia V2 Gold Edition. By Anynoupy.



Nokia BH-905i (Bluetooth Headset). By Anynoupy.

[davkol]

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[thegunner100]

Will post my dt880/600 & dt770/250 premium  + fiio e17 + little dot mkiii once the little dot arrives!

[Striketh]

As long as you guys don't have those Dre Beats you're good. I just shake my head when I see people wearing them.

[thegunner100]

As long as you guys don't have those Dre Beats you're good. I just shake my head when I see people wearing them.

You should read this thread for some lolz.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/619494/beats-are-magical-and-other-nearly-criminal-marketing-schemes

[Striketh]

As long as you guys don't have those Dre Beats you're good. I just shake my head when I see people wearing them.

You should read this thread for some lolz.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/619494/beats-are-magical-and-other-nearly-criminal-marketing-schemes

Oh yeah, I already knew about their marketing crap. That's one company I wish would get sued for spreading drivel to the masses.

[rknize]

Still rockin' the DT880 Pros.