Author Topic: Hi Guys, Model M user looking for new KB... (Read 8509 times)

003 · « **on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 00:53:04 »

Hi Guys, I currently have an original IBM Model M keyboard, with the super long detachable cable and gray IBM logo, manufactured in 1988.

I love it. The only complaint I have is the fact that it can handle only a very low number of keys pressed simultaneously, and I have triggered the computer to start beeping when playing FPS games due to pressing too many keys at once. To that end, I need a new keyboard, as that is quite annoying.

I never fully realized how many specialty mechanical keyboards are still made today, and a quick google search has brought a ton of them under consideration.

I am looking for the keyboard to be extremely durable, and not feel like it's made of cheap plastic. The Model M is better than perfect in this regard. I want a long cable, and preferably native USB (edit: I have read that PS/2 actually supports more key presses than USB?? Is that true?). A detachable cable would be nice, but it's not a necessity. I would like a windows key, but it's not an absolute necessity. Removable keycaps would be nice, but I have yet to see a keyboard other than the Model M that has them.

An absolute must is that the lettering on the keys be laser etched, or some other extremely durable imprinting method. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's the lettering wearing off after heavy use, and again, the Model M is perfect in this respect. The keyboard must use mechanical switches that give tactile feedback similar to the Model M. I must be able to hold down a good number of keys at once without the keyboard freaking out. It must be free of the ghosting/masking problem.

The ones I am considering (most I know nothing about) are as follows:

Das Keyboard Professional
CVT Avant Stellar
CVT Avant Prime
Unicomp Customizer 104
Filco Majestouch FKBN104M/EB (brown switch)*
Filco Majestouch FKBN104ML/EB (black switch)*
iOne Scorpius M10
Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2
Topre RealForce
Déck Legend

*What is the difference between brown and black switches??

Also, what are "scissor switches", and are there any good keyboards with them? And what about capacitive, laser and hall-effect switches?

Out of the ones I listed, which do you guys recommend? Please feel free to suggest ones I have not listed.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 04:20:18 »

Scissor switches are what's on laptops. Capacitive switches are what the HHKP2 and Topre boards use. Laser, you don't want. Hall-effect... not sure.

Brown switches are tactile (with no audible click,) black are linear (no tactile sensation.) Blue are audible+tactile, and that's what the Scorpius board and the Das Keyboard Pro has.

Most keyboards have removable keys, if not the two-piece caps, although it sometimes takes a special tool (or two properly bent paperclips) to remove them.

The Das Keyboard has n-key rollover, which is what you're looking for, although it's limited to six keys (plus modifiers) due to limitations of USB.

You might also look at the Déck Legend - I've heard that it has Cherry blacks, though... but, I heard somewhere that they were going to Cherry blues. 105 key (an Fn key for controlling the backlight brightness,) n-key rollover, and they claim the lettering will never fade. The keyboard's LED backlit, though.

iMav · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 05:15:20 »

I would think that the Das III Pro would be THE perfect board for you.

ashort · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 07:12:38 »

Based on the reviews of others here, you'll want to swap out the Scorpius M10 from your list and replace it with a DAS III Pro. Much better board, if you listen to the people here. =-D

lowpoly · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 08:42:05 »

Quote

Torpe keyboard?? Cant find much info on these

Maybe because it's spelled Topre?

IBI · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 10:30:40 »

Quote from: bhtooefr;6106

Brown switches are tactile (with no audible click,) black are linear (no tactile sensation.) Blue are audible+tactile, and that's what the Scorpius board and the Das Keyboard Pro has.

We need to watch out language among new posters.

Brown cherry MX switches are apparently soft switches that do have the click that the model M does but without the noise. Black cherry MX switches do have feeling (i.e. they are tactile) but that feeling is a steadily increasing force as the key gets lower - they have no click.

Unicomp keyboards are apparently only 3-key rollover like the model M, and the M10 is apparently not that well built so I'd remove both of those from the list.

USB seems to be limited to 7-key rollover at best, but on a keyboard that supports it in the worst case that's still six keys down at once, which doesn't include the modifier keys (shift, control, alt, winkeys - they're independant) so more than enough for normal use.

How about the steelseries 7G? It's got black cherries, is supposed to be pretty durable and supports PS/2 (with full rollover) and USB (with 7-key rollover).

003 · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 10:39:30 »

It seems the DK Pro is highly recommended. From the info I have found on this site on the DK II, it used to be an overpriced, not so great keyboard. Have these issues been alleviated with the DK Pro? Will the lettering on the keys wear off?

How much does it weigh? One thing I am concerned about is that it looks like it might "feel" cheap, (ex: squeaking plastic when you pick it up, flexing, etc...). Is that not the case?

bhtooefr:
The Das Keyboard claims that the DK Pro has 12-key rollover. Has this been proven false?

What about the Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2? It seems to be an extremely good keyboard. How does it stack up to my requirements?

The Filco ones also seem good, but I have seen some sub par reviews around here, also don't like that the keys get white stuff on them after a while.

How are the CVT keyboards? They would seem to be the most like the Model M.

Finally, am I to understand that the PS/2 keyboard interface supports a higher n-key rollover than USB? How can that be when it has only a fraction of the bandwidth? Any PS/2 keyboards that prove this true?

I am quite overwhelmed by the options here. Going from what I have read, I think I would like the Cherry Blue switches the best, for tactile+clicking. Brown also seems decent, and if scissor is like laptop keyboards, I would probably like that as well. How do capacitive keys feel and work?

Can anybody confirm the switches used in the Déck Legend, and if they will be switching to Cherry Blue or not? I think I can rule out the Topre keyboards because they are specifically advertised as "quiet keying" keyboards. What kind of switches do they use?

Quote from: IBI;6119

Black cherry MX switches do have feeling (i.e. they are tactile) but that feeling is a steadily increasing force as the key gets lower - they have no click.

Steadily increasing force... I don't think I would like that, I like the Model M, how the key goes down a little, and then "gives", and goes all the way.

xsphat · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 11:15:29 »

CVT boards are NOT most like a Model M - they are a direct clone of the old Northgate Omnikey. It's a legend, just like the Model M, from the 80's that still has a pretty strong following today.

And the Topre keyboards are capacitive keyboards and feel very similar to the HHKB Pro which Topre also manufactures. They do have a sound to them and I really do like the the HHKB types as do most who buy them. Spendy but worth it.

xyzzy · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 11:34:26 »

Quote from: IBI;6119

Brown cherry MX switches are apparently soft switches that do have the click that the model M does but without the noise.

I disagree on this. I would say that the brown Cherry MX feeling does not remind the click of the Model M at all, rather you feel a very mild "bump" when the keypress registers. The Model M springs give you a much stronger and crisper feel when they actuate.

IMHO the most similar switch to the brown Cherrys I can think of are the (orange?) Alps in my Apple Extended II (which, different to the Cherry, also produce an audible click).

xsphat · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 11:37:00 »

Yeah, the browns don't click at all.

iMav · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 12:27:56 »

Quote from: IBI;6119

We need to watch out language among new posters.

Here is how I use the terminology (and, I believe, most others here abide by these same general definitions as well):

Tactile - Provides physical feedback as to when the key is actuated. Requires noticeably more force before the actuation of the key. There is a release of resistance when the key is actuated and there is less force required to bottom out after the key is registered. You could further describe the key switch as providing light, medium, or heavy tactile feel.

Linear - Provides no noticeable feedback when the key is actuated. Provides either equal or a gradual increase in resistance all the way to the bottom of the keystroke.

Clicky - audible feedback. "click!"

Thoughts?

xsphat · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 12:33:15 »

I think you should post it in the wiki.

Any your descriptions are exactly the same as mine.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 13:05:48 »

There is one way that the DK3 could have 12-key rollover while still being a USB keyboard, and I've seen one other keyboard that does it this way... being a dual-mode device.

Plug it into the computer, it works as a USB HID device, with the 6-key rollover limit of USB.

Install the driver for it, the computer re-recognizes it as a protocol specific to that keyboard, and has 12-key rollover.

But, they claim there's no driver.

003 · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 13:26:33 »

Two things I am worried about with the DKIII. First, the lettering on the keys is not laser etched, but rather painted on, as pointed out in the review on Ars Technica. Second, even if it has 12-key rollover, does the key matrix use diodes or some other method to make sure that ALL combinations of keys held down will be registered (and not just ones on the same row), such as ERT XCV?

Also, why did we cross the M10 off the list again? I just got a response from iOne about it, and it seems quite nice. This is what they said:

Quote

Thank you for your interest on our scorpius M10 keyboard.
below is the Q&A

1) USB default with PS/2 adapter interface.
2) 6 Keys could be pressed simultaneously
3) 5 feet cable length
4) Keyboard weight 3 LBS
5) Laser Engraved lettering, not those pad printing that will wear off easily.
6) Keys cap could be taken out easily with keycap puller
7) mechanical switches by Cherry MX Blue color

That doesn't sound low quality to me, but I've never used it and I'm sure many of you have.

Right now, the Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 is looking really good in terms of quality. Is the lettering on it laser etched? How many keystrokes is it rated for? Does it have unlimited rollover, and can accept all combinations of keys from the matrix?

How can you describe what it feels like to type on it? Nothing like rubber dome crap I hope? Do the keys have steadily increasing resistance to going down, or do they go down some and then "give out"?

My head is spinning now, too many options and factors to consider

And there is still the CVT, Filco and Topre keyboards which I know little about, not to mention the deck legend...

bhtooefr · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 14:03:19 »

003: Key rollover numbers are usually a minimum, not a maximum.

The issue, as I understand it, with the M10 is that there has been a high failure rate lately.

003 · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 14:22:07 »

Are there any other keyboards that meet all my requirements and have the blue cherry switches? The M10 and DK Pro are the only ones I know of and both have some faults that would not be ideal for me.

003 · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 15:22:48 »

I just spoke with the sales department of CVT about the Prime keyboard, and from what I have gathered, it is extremely good and solid, and has n-key rollover and everything. All the reviews I have found are very favorable. Remapping is a nice feature as well. Now the only bad thing with it is that the lettering on the keys is just printed and will wear off. Is there anything that can be done about that?

Any Prime owners here? It is expensive, and if there is anything bad about it that I might be missing, I would like to know. I want this keyboard to be the last one I purchase in a long, long time.

Eclairz · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 15:40:30 »

Well you could try to find a Cherry keyboard with blue cherries G80-3000, it has laser etched keys but does not have the n-key rollover or the hub of the Das 3 Pro, and is larger around the edges. But it comes in grey and black, and costs about the same as a Das 3 Pro or just under. If I were you I'd get the Das 3 Pro. But if laser etched keys are a must and you have no need for all the extra features Das 3 Pro gives then the Cherry G80-3000 LSCEU-0 (white) or LSCEU-2(black)

xsphat · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 15:45:35 »

Or you could buy a Northgate and swap the keys over to the prime - the keys on my Northgate are two parters so the letter is actual plastic. Try wearing them down.

Eclairz · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 15:52:26 »

btw if northgates are two part key caps, then do you feel the texture of the lettering as if it were printed. As my g84-4100 is printed and I find it adds to the tactile feeling of a keyboard when you aren't eyeing it

iMav · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 16:07:09 »

Quote from: 003;6143

Now the only bad thing with it is that the lettering on the keys is just printed and will wear off. Is there anything that can be done about that?

If you are willing to accept a non-laser-etched keyboard, then I stand by my original suggestion of the Das III Professional.

Ulysses31 · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 16:15:19 »

Printed keys can last for years, if you can live with that font they decided to use. I'm picky I know V_V.

Mikecase00 · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 16:44:01 »

Don't worry about the key lettering wearing off, just get the Das III w/o the lettering to begin with. As others have said, it really sounds like the board for you...

I'm always amazed at the n-key rollover requirement. USB boards seem to support up to 6 keys pressed at once, how many keys can you be pressing at once anyway?

003 · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 18:17:54 »

I just got a response from the DK Pro sales team and they are fowareding my questions to the engineering department -- if it turns out the DK III lettering is sufficient I will just go with it. Although I do like the look and features of the Prime.

xsphat:
You mean northgate keys are interchangeable with those of the prime? Which northgate(s) would have suitable key replacements? If the lettering on the northgates is the same as the lettering on the model m -- which is to say perfect -- then I may consider that route.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 19:04:09 »

003: Keys are interchangeable between all keyboards with Alps switches, IIRC.

003 · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 19:18:36 »

What is the expected number of keystrokes on the Prime with the alps switches? I know it's like 50,000,000 with the cherry blues on the DKPro, and I spoke with a guy at CVT, he said he wasn't sure about the ones on the prime, but thought it was 16,000,000 or something like that. If that really is the case, that is definitely a nod towards the DK Pro.

Now I am only waiting to hear back from their engineering department on how the lettering is imprinted ...

003 · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 23:14:55 »

Haven't heard back from the DK folks yet regarding the lettering, but I went ahead and pre ordered just for the special price. Also picked up a G80-3000 for giggles.

itlnstln · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 23:29:26 »

I am a Data Analyst by trade, so I write a LOT of SQL (therefore, like the other members of the forum, I type quite a bit... shocker). I have used "regular" cheap keyboards in the past and never had a problem with keys' letters wearing off. Many times when this occurs, it is due to unclean hands, particularly when said users' hands are oily. This might be due to a user who eats potato chips while they type (the "dirty" user) or to someone with particularly dry hands who uses moisturizers frequently (the "dry" user or the heavy pron viewer). I usually see letters wear off on women's keyboards as they tend to use moisturizers more frequently or from make up use. As a general rule, I do not type when eating oily foods unless I have washed my hands first. I also use less oily moisturizers in the Winter when my hands tend to get dry and very little/infrequently at that. With that in mind, any key-printing should last you forever. I usually wear the texture off keys, but have never worn any letters off.

ashort · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 23:33:11 »

Very interesting. I eat oily foods frequently while typing and I am quite efficient at rubbing the letters off. =-D

003 · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue, 01 July 2008, 23:56:36 »

I am extremely anal retentive when it comes to keeping my computer peripherals clean. I ALWAYS have very clean hands when I use them, and they frequently get 91% rubbing alcohol baths and blasts of compressed air. I never eat when using the computer.

Oh, just curious, how does having dry hands and being a heavy pr0n viewer correlate?

xsphat · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 00:15:48 »

I'm typig on my $300 keyboard while eating tortilla chips and thinking about that ice cream ...

xsphat · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 00:27:50 »

Quote from: 003;6174

I am extremely anal ... and ... a ... heavy pr0n viewer.

See how the media does it?

003 · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 01:41:44 »

Well one thing I am worried about with the DK Pro is finger prints and smudges, like iPods get.

lowpoly · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 02:17:39 »

With cheap keyboards the lettering can wear off within days.

iMav · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 09:44:53 »

Quote from: 003;6179

Well one thing I am worried about with the DK Pro is finger prints and smudges, like iPods get.

Since no one here has had hands on the new DKIII yet, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Having a keyboard prone to showing fingerprints would be really stupid.

003 · « **Reply #35 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 10:37:15 »

Quote from: iMav;6193

Since no one here has had hands on the new DKIII yet, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Having a keyboard prone to showing fingerprints would be really stupid.

Take a look at this image:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ars_daskeyboardprof_full.jpg

Look above the two USB ports on it.

EDIT:
I got a reply from the DK folks, the lettering on the DK Pro is laser etched.

iMav · « **Reply #36 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 10:45:57 »

Quote from: 003;6199

Take a look at this image:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ars_daskeyboardprof_full.jpg

Look above the two USB ports on it.

We'll have to see I guess. There are certainly some smudges there...but the picture was also taken at an angle that would certainly show ANYTHING on the keyboard. Who knows if you would even see those under normal lighting.

One thing about the numpad area, there is a lot of room to support a mouse bridge...

sashomasho · « **Reply #37 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 10:47:20 »

Quote from: iMav;6193

Since no one here has had hands on the new DKIII yet, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Having a keyboard prone to showing fingerprints would be really stupid.

after a whole day of writing on my filco at work in a hot environment (my boss is half australian and stops the air conditioner after some hours) my keys are becoming greasy and if you take a closer look at them - my fingerprints are there... At the end of the day - I take my coworker's dust-cloth and wipe them out.. This never happens on model m or hhkb, i don't appreciate glossy key caps very much...

iMav · « **Reply #38 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 10:53:03 »

The keycaps don't appear glossy, just the body of the keyboard.

Am I wrong?

sashomasho · « **Reply #39 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 10:57:42 »

Quote from: iMav;6204

The keycaps don't appear glossy, just the body of the keyboard.

Am I wrong?

probably not, but I don't expect them to be much different from the filco's...

003 · « **Reply #40 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 11:09:15 »

The Filco keycaps are aluminum, correct? The DK Pro keycaps are laser etched plastic, like the Model M. I don't think fingerprints on the keycaps would be an issue. It's more the body of the keyboard I am concerned about.

lowpoly · « **Reply #41 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 11:14:17 »

Similar Cherry housing with some differences.

Ulysses31 · « **Reply #42 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 11:30:46 »

I actually prefer the look of that Cherry. Fairly compact and rather business-like. I don't think the Filco has aluminium key-caps; it looks like they are made of finely-textured plastic.

Waves77 · « **Reply #43 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 13:49:58 »

Yes, the Filco keycaps are plastic.

ecru · « **Reply #44 on:** Wed, 02 July 2008, 17:02:11 »

Unicomp are all actually 2 key rollover. As is the G80-3000 I have. I vaguely remember reading of a Cherry with n key rollover, but can't remember the model.

Search the forum for some bad experiences with the Scorpius M10.

News:

Author Topic: Hi Guys, Model M user looking for new KB... (Read 8509 times)