Post by: Matias on Wed, 08 January 2014, 11:43:37
http://matias.ca/ergopro
http://matias.ca/ergopro/pr
Let me know if there are any questions. :-)
Post by: daerid on Wed, 08 January 2014, 12:11:22
Post by: Binge on Wed, 08 January 2014, 12:16:12
Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 08 January 2014, 12:56:41
These days I'm having a hard time calling anything that still uses a staggered layout "ergonomic". It's a good first attempt, but falls short due to the awkwardness of the staggered layout.
I echo this sentiment. But they are a business and they to have to sell to more than a niche market.
My first impression, however, is that thing is kind of ugly with all the different button sizes.
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 08 January 2014, 13:49:59
Otherwise, this looks very interesting. I used to use a Kinesis Freestyle, but switched to a mechanical keyboard because I didn't like the rubber dome switches. I think I would have switched to this instead of a normal flat keyboard if it were available at the time. If my ergodox that I'm waiting on doesn't work out I think I'll order one of these.
For those asking about it being non-staggered, I think there are enough people who want or need a split keyboard, but don't want to learn a completely new physical layout. Not everybody wants to or can jump completely and some just want to take small steps ergonomically. If you depend on typing for your job like me then the low learning curve on something like this is great.
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 08 January 2014, 14:02:54
Can the left spacebar be reprogrammed for another key? Either natively or with something like Sharpkeys/Autohotkey
I think that is an interesting placement for right Ctrl.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 08 January 2014, 16:42:27
As someone suggested, we went with staggered to ease the transition for people coming from a standard keyboard.
The flat angle is zero degrees. It can be negatively tilted 4.5 degrees or centre tented 9 degrees.
The left spacebar is not programmable.
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 08 January 2014, 17:36:25
Also, it would be fantastic if the shipping product could contain a Mac command key keycap to swap out for the Windows key!
Post by: Matias on Wed, 08 January 2014, 17:46:46
Is that regular USB you're using to connect the two halves?
It's a stereo earbud extension cable.
Quote
Also, it would be fantastic if the shipping product could contain a Mac command key keycap to swap out for the Windows key!
It will have Mac modifiers, and may have Option symbols on the keys if we get enough interest.
Post by: kurplop on Wed, 08 January 2014, 20:03:05
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 08 January 2014, 20:35:24
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 08 January 2014, 20:54:24
- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.
Yes, for users who touch-type, having the "6" in the correct position is important. Other ergonomic keyboards consistantly get it wrong.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.
We did quite a bit of user testing, and found that when you angle the keyboard to comfort, the expected relative positions change for various keys. That explains the differences.
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Wed, 08 January 2014, 20:58:42
Post by: daerid on Thu, 09 January 2014, 00:46:42
- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.
Yes, for users who touch-type, having the "6" in the correct position is important. Other ergonomic keyboards consistantly get it wrong.
Ugh... that's going to be a problem for a lot of people switching from say a Natural 4000 (also people like me, who hit 6 with the left hand, probably because I spent 7 years on MS Natural boards).
Post by: h1ro on Thu, 09 January 2014, 05:20:19
QuoteAlso, it would be fantastic if the shipping product could contain a Mac command key keycap to swap out for the Windows key!
It will have Mac modifiers, and may have Option symbols on the keys if we get enough interest.
Definitely interest here - fantastic to have another mechanical ergo keyboard coming to the market. My wrists thank you :)
Post by: Gerk on Thu, 09 January 2014, 13:01:19
Great progress and I've loooooooong wanted a split tent/splay board with mechanical keys ... I don't think it's quite there yet for me. I'll be watching and waiting for the v2 though ;) Hopefully you'll take some of these suggestions into consideration for them.
Congrats on the new board!
Post by: cgbuen on Thu, 09 January 2014, 15:26:20
And any chance of a Ctrl/Caps Lock swap?
Post by: reziak on Thu, 09 January 2014, 16:03:47
Post by: Polymer on Thu, 09 January 2014, 16:53:08
I do think it is a bit odd that you went with the 6 on the right (both are actually "correct") siting correct touch typing but you left a left handed space bar that can't be used as something else :).
It is really hard to be everything for everyone but I think this is a great release overall...
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 09 January 2014, 18:28:35
Ugh... that's going to be a problem for a lot of people switching from say a Natural 4000 (also people like me, who hit 6 with the left hand, probably because I spent 7 years on MS Natural boards).I think people will adapt. I think that people who were used to pressing the 'B' key with the right hand or 'Y' with the left hand adapted pretty quickly to using split layout.
Post by: Moe Bricks on Thu, 09 January 2014, 19:46:33
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Thu, 09 January 2014, 20:46:10
What color are the keyswitches?
They aren't Cherry MX. They're Matias Quiet Click switches which are Alps clones.
Post by: cbf123 on Thu, 09 January 2014, 20:59:38
Post by: wiz on Thu, 09 January 2014, 21:41:09
I was going to ask- Was there a reason you chose staggered vs, a non-staggered layout?
ALPS style keyboards use a huge filled resin casting for the lower part of the switches, so the entire keyboard layout is cast in one giant swoop. Gating those dies lets them cast the thing using existing hardware instead of spending $200,000 on new dies.
There is a trick that makes for a nice ergonomic keyboard using ALPS castings, and that's to gate for 4 rows 7 columns, plus the shift, windows, and space bar positions, then turn main sections sideways to get 7 row 4 column with function keys to one side and shift, ctrl, etc to the other. Those will become tab, enter, etc. like the areas left and right of letters on a TEK. The main areas of the keyboard get populated, top to bottom
7 - functions
6 - empty
5 - numbers
4-2 - letters
1 space, alt, up, down, left, right
I've done this by taking a saw to whole ALPS keyboards before, back in the TRS-80 days.
If Matias does this for the next rev, I expect it to be named after me.
Post by: wiz on Thu, 09 January 2014, 22:09:08
Yes, for users who touch-type, having the "6" in the correct position is important. Other ergonomic keyboards consistantly get it wrong.Some do. My favorites don't. My Truly Ergonomic Keyboards have 6 in the right cluster, as does the my Kinesis, and the TypeMatrix that's wandering around here somewhere. I think that's every ergonomic keyboard I have.
The two things that are dealbreakers for me are the oft-mentioned staggered layout and the ALPS style switches. The world outgrew those with the TRS-80 and the Apple II.
Post by: daerid on Thu, 09 January 2014, 23:20:57
The two things that are dealbreakers for me are the oft-mentioned staggered layout and the ALPS style switches. The world outgrew those with the TRS-80 and the Apple II.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. Alps switches are some of the most pleasant I've ever typed on (and I've tried practically every switch).
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 09 January 2014, 23:39:33
The two things that are dealbreakers for me are the oft-mentioned staggered layout and the ALPS style switches. The world outgrew those with the TRS-80 and the Apple II.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. Alps switches are some of the most pleasant I've ever typed on (and I've tried practically every switch).
switches make very little difference in the long run..
I just hope they'll change their mind on making it "fully " programmable...
Post by: Moe Bricks on Fri, 10 January 2014, 02:48:59
Post by: Polymer on Fri, 10 January 2014, 07:30:33
The two things that are dealbreakers for me are the oft-mentioned staggered layout and the ALPS style switches. The world outgrew those with the TRS-80 and the Apple II.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. Alps switches are some of the most pleasant I've ever typed on (and I've tried practically every switch).
I agree..Alps switches are really nice. The main downside to me used to be they weren't made all that well..but Matias looks like they've fixed the switch issue...
I think they also had some early issues w/ quality control w/ their boards w/ the silents switches..that seems to have been ironed out as well...
The Ergo Matias is a pretty attractive option for those that want a mechanical keyboard in an ergonomic form...they should be applauded.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 10 January 2014, 08:26:59
now how does it stand up go an ergodox?It is much easier to go from standard layout to this split standard layout, than from standard to a columnar layout such as the ErgoDox's.
With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
With a somewhat standard layout, you can do like most people and wing it a bit.
I noticed when I got a Goldtouch that just having the keyboard split is a big improvement in itself.
* Matias wrote that the Ergo Pro is not programmable.
ErgoDox is programmable in that you can reflash the firmware with a firmware with your own custom layout. You can also have multiple layers. Getting special features such as half-keyboard, embedded numpad, VI cursor keys etc. is real easy in Massdrop's layout configuration editor.
No realtime remapping or macros like the Kinesis, though.
* ErgoDox has more thumb keys. Ergo Pro's left Space Bar can not be used for anything but Space (?).
* The Matias Quiet switches feel a bit different than any Cherry MX. Matias Quiet feel a bit more like rubber dome, but good rubber dome with a metallic tang to them ... Which is best is a question of personal taste, though.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 10 January 2014, 09:57:51
I am in Europe. Will there be an ISO version, and when can I get one?now how does it stand up go an ergodox?It is much easier to go from standard layout to this split standard layout, than from standard to a columnar layout such as the ErgoDox's.
With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
With a somewhat standard layout, you can do like most people and wing it a bit.
I noticed when I got a Goldtouch that just having the keyboard split is a big improvement in itself.
* Matias wrote that the Ergo Pro is not programmable.
ErgoDox is programmable in that you can reflash the firmware with a firmware with your own custom layout. You can also have multiple layers. Getting special features such as half-keyboard, embedded numpad, VI cursor keys etc. is real easy in Massdrop's layout configuration editor.
No realtime remapping or macros like the Kinesis, though.
* ErgoDox has more thumb keys. Ergo Pro's left Space Bar can not be used for anything but Space (?).
* The Matias Quiet switches feel a bit different than any Cherry MX. Matias Quiet feel a bit more like rubber dome, but good rubber dome with a metallic tang to them ... Which is best is a question of personal taste, though.
wait wait... (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/whaaat2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862525)
is the Ergopro COMPLETELY non programmable? or jus the left space...
Post by: daerid on Fri, 10 January 2014, 11:58:01
With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
This is not true, at least for the ErgoDox. All it takes is just a little bit of re-training your muscle memory. It only takes a few days, maybe a week at the most.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 10 January 2014, 12:13:17
is the Ergopro COMPLETELY non programmable? or jus the left space...You're right. Matias said only that the left space bar was not programmable... but hey, why would Matias make the rest of the keyboard programmable but not the left space?
That is my experience when switching to Kinesis Advantage. My ErgoDox is only half built. (If it didn't have flaws in the PCB, it would have been built a long time ago. Then problems with keycap order, and plate order, and finding components.. gah, my ErgoDox build is cursed >:D )With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
This is not true, at least for the ErgoDox. All it takes is just a little bit of re-training your muscle memory. It only takes a few days, maybe a week at the most.
Post by: Moe Bricks on Fri, 10 January 2014, 15:56:09
Post by: cbf123 on Fri, 10 January 2014, 18:13:01
Will this keyboard suffice for gaming? Or is it mainly just for typing. Also do the keys have tactile feedback, or are they linear?
Gaming is very personal (layout, switch choice, etc.). These do have tactile feedback--check out the Matias website.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 10 January 2014, 19:14:35
is the Ergopro COMPLETELY non programmable? or jus the left space...You're right. Matias said only that the left space bar was not programmable... but hey, why would Matias make the rest of the keyboard programmable but not the left space?That is my experience when switching to Kinesis Advantage. My ErgoDox is only half built. (If it didn't have flaws in the PCB, it would have been built a long time ago. Then problems with keycap order, and plate order, and finding components.. gah, my ErgoDox build is cursed >:D )With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
This is not true, at least for the ErgoDox. All it takes is just a little bit of re-training your muscle memory. It only takes a few days, maybe a week at the most.
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/042.gif) lalalalalala.. I can't hear you...!!!!!!!!!
It's programmable, it has to be... why would anyone buy it if it's not programmable..
Post by: Moe Bricks on Fri, 10 January 2014, 19:42:45
is the Ergopro COMPLETELY non programmable? or jus the left space...You're right. Matias said only that the left space bar was not programmable... but hey, why would Matias make the rest of the keyboard programmable but not the left space?That is my experience when switching to Kinesis Advantage. My ErgoDox is only half built. (If it didn't have flaws in the PCB, it would have been built a long time ago. Then problems with keycap order, and plate order, and finding components.. gah, my ErgoDox build is cursed >:D )With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
This is not true, at least for the ErgoDox. All it takes is just a little bit of re-training your muscle memory. It only takes a few days, maybe a week at the most.Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/042.gif)lalalalalala.. I can't hear you...!!!!!!!!!
It's programmable, it has to be... why would anyone buy it if it's not programmable..
Where there's a will there's a way. I'm pretty sure every keyboard is programmable if you take the time to do a little hacking, tweaking and reverse engineering, that is if it's really that important to you. Unfortunately though time is money, and not everybody has the time to screw around with stuff like that.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 10 January 2014, 23:00:34
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 11 January 2014, 00:03:57
is the Ergopro COMPLETELY non programmable? or jus the left space...You're right. Matias said only that the left space bar was not programmable... but hey, why would Matias make the rest of the keyboard programmable but not the left space?That is my experience when switching to Kinesis Advantage. My ErgoDox is only half built. (If it didn't have flaws in the PCB, it would have been built a long time ago. Then problems with keycap order, and plate order, and finding components.. gah, my ErgoDox build is cursed >:D )With the ErgoDox, Kinesis etc. you have to touch-type correctly, with each finger in the correct column according to the school of touch typing.
This is not true, at least for the ErgoDox. All it takes is just a little bit of re-training your muscle memory. It only takes a few days, maybe a week at the most.Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/042.gif)lalalalalala.. I can't hear you...!!!!!!!!!
It's programmable, it has to be... why would anyone buy it if it's not programmable..
Where there's a will there's a way. I'm pretty sure every keyboard is programmable if you take the time to do a little hacking, tweaking and reverse engineering, that is if it's really that important to you. Unfortunately though time is money, and not everybody has the time to screw around with stuff like that.
Where is Matias.... he needs to answer this definitively... (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_085_.gif)
Post by: Moe Bricks on Sat, 11 January 2014, 00:36:41
Post by: tufty on Sat, 11 January 2014, 09:05:00
I'm guessing he's busy running a business or taking a break from running a business :)), either way I'm sure he's bound to reply soon.Given that it's the weekend, and currently only around 7AM where he is (if my calcs are correct), it's hardly surprising he's not glued to the screen right now.
What's needed here is not one of tp4's "cutesy" animated GIFs, but one of these ...
(http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu73/skyshepherd/whaaaambulance.jpg)
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:19:02
it's the weekend... He could come in here.. and leave a 3 sentence message that would explain everything...
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/4519626a.gif)
Post by: Moe Bricks on Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:25:33
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:29:23
Only nerds use the computer on weekends
is this true?
Post by: Moe Bricks on Sat, 11 January 2014, 21:49:23
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Sat, 11 January 2014, 23:39:33
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 12 January 2014, 02:12:36
I saw on Matias's twitter feed that the left spacebar is not programmable. I'm guessing that means the whole thing isn't programmable. Same thing with the freestyle. I think a dipswitch to change it to Ctrl or some other key would be cool, but not a deal breaker for me.
Let's hear from Matias before further speculation..
But if it is indeed true that the Board is not programmable.. Then it would be 1 step forward, 2 steps back.(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-001.gif)
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 12 January 2014, 22:57:33
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 13 January 2014, 00:09:22
What is that emoticon? A sperm burglar? :OShow Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0tasma.gif)
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Mon, 13 January 2014, 00:59:25
What is that emoticon? A sperm burglar? :OShow Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0tasma.gif)
That sounds like a complicated emotion.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 13 January 2014, 01:23:41
What is that emoticon? A sperm burglar? :OShow Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0tasma.gif)
(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/g/a/gameaddictplz.gif?1)
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 13 January 2014, 03:37:37
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 13 January 2014, 11:28:26
Well, I don't know how to interpret it.. It looked like a black mask like cartoon burglars wear.
it's actually cuz you watch too much pornography... so the sexual associations are very near the top of your thought process..
Most NORMAL non porn-addicts would think.. a Ghost-burgler...
Hope this helps... (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_aji.gif)
Post by: Matias on Mon, 13 January 2014, 15:27:36
Also some sort of adjustable tent/angle is a must after having used Goldtouch V2's for a while now, I couldn't go back to anything less in terms of adjustability.
Yes, we do support tenting via foldout legs. Plus, there are standard tripod screw mounts (1/4"-20) underneath, so you can mount them to a small tripod for more adjustability.
Being an RSI sufferer while it's nice to have angle and splay it's also incredibly important to be able to change them periodically, otherwise you get relief for a while, until you have repeated those motions at those angles enough times, then you're back at square one. Negative tilt is overrated IMHO, it's more likely to cause you issues down the road as most people using this will not be in a proper hand/wrist position.
Totally agree.
In fact, I would go so far as to encourage using different pointing devices. Periodically switching between mouse and trackball can go a long way to keeping RSI away.
Great progress and I've loooooooong wanted a split tent/splay board with mechanical keys ... I don't think it's quite there yet for me. I'll be watching and waiting for the v2 though ;) Hopefully you'll take some of these suggestions into consideration for them.
May be quite a while before you see a v2. :)
Cool! Are the smaller keys mechanical too?
Yes, smaller keys are mechanical also. We had to develop special caps for this, and the switch mounts are rotated 90 degrees.
And any chance of a Ctrl/Caps Lock swap?
We're considering adding it. We've already had one other request.
Nice work! Appreciate any and all attempts at trying something new. Is the spacebar split into two spacebars or space/backspace?
Thanks! Two spacebars.
It is really hard to be everything for everyone but I think this is a great release overall...
Yes, we had to make some tough choices. I know not everyone is 100% happy with the result, but ergonomic keyboards always have a learning curve, and ours is probably shorter than most.
Also not sure about right CTRL.
Quite frankly, I think many people will just use the Left-CTRL. It's big enough to press with the side of your hand, or with a hand closing motion. I found myself doing this a lot. Remember, you also have dedicated keys for Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste.
Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/042.gif)lalalalalala.. I can't hear you...!!!!!!!!!
It's programmable, it has to be... why would anyone buy it if it's not programmable..
Where there's a will there's a way. I'm pretty sure every keyboard is programmable if you take the time to do a little hacking, tweaking and reverse engineering, that is if it's really that important to you. Unfortunately though time is money, and not everybody has the time to screw around with stuff like that.
Moe Bricks is correct. :-)
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 13 January 2014, 18:05:00
Sorry for the delay posting answers to your questions. Was a bit wiped out after CES -- not to mention the month leading up to it. Nothing like 12 hours of sleep to get you back on track... :-)Also some sort of adjustable tent/angle is a must after having used Goldtouch V2's for a while now, I couldn't go back to anything less in terms of adjustability.
Yes, we do support tenting via foldout legs. Plus, there are standard tripod screw mounts (1/4"-20) underneath, so you can mount them to a small tripod for more adjustability.Being an RSI sufferer while it's nice to have angle and splay it's also incredibly important to be able to change them periodically, otherwise you get relief for a while, until you have repeated those motions at those angles enough times, then you're back at square one. Negative tilt is overrated IMHO, it's more likely to cause you issues down the road as most people using this will not be in a proper hand/wrist position.
Totally agree.
In fact, I would go so far as to encourage using different pointing devices. Periodically switching between mouse and trackball can go a long way to keeping RSI away.Great progress and I've loooooooong wanted a split tent/splay board with mechanical keys ... I don't think it's quite there yet for me. I'll be watching and waiting for the v2 though ;) Hopefully you'll take some of these suggestions into consideration for them.
May be quite a while before you see a v2. :)Cool! Are the smaller keys mechanical too?
Yes, smaller keys are mechanical also. We had to develop special caps for this, and the switch mounts are rotated 90 degrees.And any chance of a Ctrl/Caps Lock swap?
We're considering adding it. We've already had one other request.Nice work! Appreciate any and all attempts at trying something new. Is the spacebar split into two spacebars or space/backspace?
Thanks! Two spacebars.It is really hard to be everything for everyone but I think this is a great release overall...
Yes, we had to make some tough choices. I know not everyone is 100% happy with the result, but ergonomic keyboards always have a learning curve, and ours is probably shorter than most.Also not sure about right CTRL.
Quite frankly, I think many people will just use the Left-CTRL. It's big enough to press with the side of your hand, or with a hand closing motion. I found myself doing this a lot. Remember, you also have dedicated keys for Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste.Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/042.gif)lalalalalala.. I can't hear you...!!!!!!!!!
It's programmable, it has to be... why would anyone buy it if it's not programmable..
Where there's a will there's a way. I'm pretty sure every keyboard is programmable if you take the time to do a little hacking, tweaking and reverse engineering, that is if it's really that important to you. Unfortunately though time is money, and not everybody has the time to screw around with stuff like that.
Moe Bricks is correct. :-)
So, there's gonna be, non-sanctioned programability?
Post by: Moe Bricks on Mon, 13 January 2014, 19:40:14
Post by: Matias on Mon, 13 January 2014, 23:28:57
So, there's gonna be, non-sanctioned programability?
I prefer the term "hackable". :-)
Hey Matias, I sent you an e-mail, I hope you look it over and get back to me. Look forward to a response.
Sorry, I got a mountain of emails to go through. If you tell me the username from your email address (everything before @) I can search for it and have a look.
Post by: Belfong on Mon, 13 January 2014, 23:56:47
And with Bro Caps planning a alps based Brobot, this is an exciting year for alps and Matias keyboard. Perhaps you guys can do a bundling!!
Post by: mooswa on Tue, 14 January 2014, 00:20:52
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 14 January 2014, 18:53:29
So, there's gonna be, non-sanctioned programability?
I prefer the term "hackable". :-)Hey Matias, I sent you an e-mail, I hope you look it over and get back to me. Look forward to a response.
Sorry, I got a mountain of emails to go through. If you tell me the username from your email address (everything before @) I can search for it and have a look.
now... will there be a limit on the number of times the rom will be flashable?
Post by: Matias on Tue, 14 January 2014, 19:10:57
now... will there be a limit on the number of times the rom will be flashable?
None that we've imposed.
Hope the upcoming 60% will be "hackable" as well.
Same IC so yes.
Hi Matias, I'm so ready for the 60% GB. Do you have a tentative month so we can all look forward to it? Feb? Mar?
It may slip to Feb. We're really busy this month, so I don't know if we'll get the case drawings done before CNY (Chinese New Year).
Post by: Belfong on Tue, 14 January 2014, 23:29:08
Edit: btw, take your time, ha ha .. wallet need to recover!
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 14 January 2014, 23:55:32
Are the smaller looking keys also mechanical?
Post by: Belfong on Wed, 15 January 2014, 00:03:47
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 15 January 2014, 00:48:40
Since I'm absolutely an Ergo Prima donna and self-appointed ergo-guru, I won't offer any input on the Matias split keyboard ergo offering, but I've always appreciated the Matias Mac line of keyboards.
Right now with Matias I'm far more interested in:
-the uber-quiet yet tactile Alps switches (gotta try….how about on the Traveling Tester?)
-the multicolor lighting aspect (the entire keyswitch is transparent! How about on the Traveling Tester?)
-the multiple legends of the keycaps (Mac version…totally addressing the anal, nerdy, cool Mac people!)
Kinda makes me wonder about a Matias/Alps clone Kinesis mod….anyone have any thoughts on THAT????
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 15 January 2014, 01:05:01
He answered somewhere up thread or in another of the CES Matias thread that the small keys are mechanical alps and that they turned the orientation of the switch side ways.
ah.. ok awesome...
Post by: Matias on Sat, 18 January 2014, 15:44:23
Does the board use cherry stabilizers?
No, the stabilizers are custom-fit to this keyboard.
Are the smaller looking keys also mechanical?
Yes, and we'll be offering coloured caps for the smaller keys.
Right now with Matias I'm far more interested in:
-the multiple legends of the keycaps (Mac version…totally addressing the anal, nerdy, cool Mac people!)
You'll see that for sure. We have all the artwork already done.
Surprise to see you use the term CNY, common only among those who celebrate! :thumb: :thumb:
Yes, it's the only time I know I won't have to look at an engineering drawing. ;)
Edit: btw, take your time, ha ha .. wallet need to recover!
:thumb:
Post by: bbl on Fri, 24 January 2014, 08:39:52
Post by: Belfong on Fri, 24 January 2014, 09:44:28
Pre-order free shipping of ErgoPro and Secure Pro is only for those who live in the US and Canada. Too bad for moi.No it says free worldwide shipping in the page.
Also Matias shipped out of Taiwan for international orders. Even if you have to pay shipping fees, it cost US$15.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 24 January 2014, 14:27:26
No it says free worldwide shipping in the page.... for those who pre-order.
Post by: Belfong on Fri, 24 January 2014, 18:10:01
Yes, I know.
In his post he said pre order is only for US and Canada and I pointed out that it is for WW.
Pre-order free shipping of ErgoPro and Secure Pro is only for those who live in the US and Canada. Too bad for moi.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 24 January 2014, 18:24:23
No it says free worldwide shipping in the page.... for those who pre-order.
Yes, this is correct.
Post by: spuriousgeorge on Wed, 29 January 2014, 12:39:33
I always thought they looked kind of fun but wasn't sure they'd be more comfortable or quicker to type on than staggered layouts.
Post by: davkol on Wed, 29 January 2014, 13:37:53
Question for people who made the switch to a non-staggered-layout keyboard: Did you switch because of RSI stuff, because you wanted to type more efficiently, because you just wanted to try something different?
I always thought they looked kind of fun but wasn't sure they'd be more comfortable or quicker to type on than staggered layouts.
I don't actually suffer from RSI, but I have to be very careful. I switched to grid/columnar layout, because it seemed to make sence, unlike the 19th century staggered relic. So far, there have been three major advantages for me:
- B and Y are much closer to the "resting" home row position.
- I've never been able to learn to touch type with decent accuracy on the right-hand part of the number row on staggered layout, because it doesn't make any sense. OTOH, I just move my hand/finger forward and the wanted key is just there on columnar/grid layout. It's much easier to learn proper, clean touch typing technique then.
- I have rather short pinkies and I've always had to awkwardly curl my hands to hit the right keys with my pinkies on staggered layout. Words like 'away' are very difficult for me... unless on columnar layout. Then, it's an non-issue, because both Kinesis Advantage and ErgoDox reflect length ratio among fingers to certain extent.
Post by: spuriousgeorge on Wed, 29 January 2014, 14:27:23
Post by: Matias on Wed, 29 January 2014, 17:20:22
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1wc0ku/news_edgar_matias_creator_of_matias_keyboards_and/
Any and all are welcome to join in. I'll be online for a few hours, answering questions live. :-)
Post by: bbl on Thu, 30 January 2014, 23:27:24
No it says free worldwide shipping in the page.... for those who pre-order.
Yes, this is correct.
The order form on the Matias site shows and Matias Help Desk confirms via email that there is a US$5.00 shipping charge for Asia. Shipment to Europe is US$10.00. Hence, no free shipping for those who live outside the US and Canada. US$5-10 is acceptable but it is not free.
On a separate note, could Matias shows how the tilting and tenting works with and without the removable palm rest? The Matias site has an animation showing how to tilt/raise the keyboard with the leg support coming down from the bottom of the palm rest.
What will happen if one removes the palm rest? No titling then. Also, how do you tent the keyboard? Could not tell from the animation.
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 31 January 2014, 12:46:11
literally everyone is terrified of my kinesis, this is the BEST security measure on my computer, i don't need a password, i need a kinesis and ppl just look at it and forget how to type!
i had a friend who was suffering RSI, i just gave her one of my extra kinesis' (i was stocking them up for a while for projects) and if it wasn't for her pain and my friendly nagging to learn the kinesis (cuz at this point i took initiative to care about her) she really wouldn't have learned to use the kinsis. (now of course i get thanks).
the thing about the keyboard is that, the less you make it into a keyboard, the less ppl want/can use it.
this is about the best designed keyboard with that in mind, on a consumer level.
it's a split keyboard, mechanical, and has varing degree's on tenting and tilt, and for all intents and purposes, looks "normal"
hell i still come across ppl who think "yea those white microsoft split keyboards, was that a fad, those were silly keyboards"
because it doesn't look "normal" most ppl won't use it, hell that's most of the kinesis boards i buy from ebay, they're almost pristine and new, but because ppl can't use it cuz it's too "different" they use it once, store it in the basement and sell it on ebay 10 years later.
the ergo market has always been limited, i welcome more products. (if not for myself, then to suggest to others).
Post by: kod on Fri, 31 January 2014, 19:49:42
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Fri, 31 January 2014, 19:54:08
Any word on what the total width of the keyboard is? I know tenting affects it somewhat, but overall narrower than say a kinesis freestyle, or wider?
Dimensions are on their website:
14.5” x 6.5” x 1.38”
(36.8 x 16.5 x 3.5 cm)
http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/ (http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/)
Post by: kod on Fri, 31 January 2014, 20:00:06
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 23 February 2014, 01:37:42
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 14 March 2014, 13:55:15
The only odd thing is seeing the 6 and F5 keys on the right side versus the left coming from an MS Ergo. It would end up a challenge should I end up back in WoW as I'd normally need at least 6 number keys on the left side for commonly used abilities.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 14 March 2014, 19:25:47
Post by: nomaded on Fri, 14 March 2014, 20:19:59
The only odd thing is seeing the 6 and F5 keys on the right side versus the left coming from an MS Ergo. It would end up a challenge should I end up back in WoW as I'd normally need at least 6 number keys on the left side for commonly used abilities.
Well, for traditional touch typing, the 6 should be hit by the right index finger. Not having used any of the Microsoft split keyboards for any length of time, I have no problems with the 6 being on the right side. Certainly, all the non-standard/staggered keyboards I've used have the 6 on the right side.
<snark>Typical of Microsoft.</snark>
Post by: nomaded on Fri, 14 March 2014, 20:28:34
One thing I’m curious about is the decision to put a ctrl key on the duplicate right-hand “B” position. In what situations would it be useful to hit the ctrl key with the right index finger?
I could imagine a few uses of the Ctrl key next to the B key on the right side. It might be possible to reach up to hit the key with the right thumb. The number of keys that should be hit by the pinky fingers on the standard/staggered keyboard isn't really great.
I can also see it being "better" (in the ergonomic sense) to hit the Ctrl key with the right index finger while hitting the "other" key with the left hand. But since I type Dvorak, I'm used to hitting common keyboard shortcuts with 2 hands.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 15 March 2014, 00:12:54
It's true that the "6" key is traditionally on the right side. Check any typing instruction book/software and you'll see what I mean. Most ergonomic keyboards get this wrong.
Regarding the Ctrl key on the right side, there was a lot of internal debate as to what it should be. Possible candidates included... Fn, Win key, Menu key, and a redundant "B" key. Ultimately, we settled on Ctrl because it was felt to be the most useful. On the Mac version, it will be an Option key.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 15 March 2014, 00:53:54
On a separate note, could Matias shows how the tilting and tenting works with and without the removable palm rest? The Matias site has an animation showing how to tilt/raise the keyboard with the leg support coming down from the bottom of the palm rest.
What will happen if one removes the palm rest? No titling then. Also, how do you tent the keyboard? Could not tell from the animation.
Tilting and tenting requires the palm support to be attached.
We actually did a prototype that supported tenting without the palm support, but it was unusable. User testing found it to be so uncomfortable that we decided we had to include the palm support in the box.
However, the palm supports are still removable and the mounting holes are standard 1/4-20 tripod screw threads, so you could always mount them on a small tripod to get any angle you like. There are lots of small & rugged tripods available. We felt this route was more flexible, less expensive, and better served users needs than say the Kinesis approach where you have to buy an extra add-on to get tilting and tenting.
The tripod mounts are also handy if (for example) you want to use the keyboard while standing on a stage or doing a presentation.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sat, 15 March 2014, 02:55:24
Post by: mashby on Sat, 15 March 2014, 10:52:06
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sat, 15 March 2014, 10:53:58
Post by: Lanx on Sat, 15 March 2014, 20:38:29
I'm fairly keen to pre-order one. Just not done it yet as I am waiting to see what the dollar does for a bit longer :P
reps should just have the power and budget to give review copies to premiere websites... probably more worthwhile than doing a silly tradeshow like CES... who watches that? not consumers!
Post by: Matias on Sun, 16 March 2014, 02:12:25
Matias; Can you confirm if there is a $5 to $10 shipping charge on international orders as someone previously mentioned?
Actually, there isn't. Just choose one of the "no additional charge" options for shipping.
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sun, 16 March 2014, 03:55:31
Ok, no worries. This means I will need to choose like an American shipping option, as I did check myself and it showed at $5 for Aus. But will do, thanks ;DMatias; Can you confirm if there is a $5 to $10 shipping charge on international orders as someone previously mentioned?
Actually, there isn't. Just choose one of the "no additional charge" options for shipping.
Post by: Matias on Sun, 16 March 2014, 04:01:36
Ok, no worries. This means I will need to choose like an American shipping option, as I did check myself and it showed at $5 for Aus. But will do, thanks ;DMatias; Can you confirm if there is a $5 to $10 shipping charge on international orders as someone previously mentioned?
Actually, there isn't. Just choose one of the "no additional charge" options for shipping.
Yes, that's correct. :-)
Post by: kod on Mon, 17 March 2014, 14:40:23
We actually did a prototype that supported tenting without the palm support, but it was unusable. User testing found it to be so uncomfortable that we decided we had to include the palm support in the box.
I'm really confused by this response. I've used (and I'm sure hundreds of other customers have as well) a kinesis freestyle that provides tenting without a palm support. For years. Without discomfort.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 17 March 2014, 14:57:54
This is a really bold direction. I plan to drive out to MechanicalKeyboards.com to test drive this board once it's released to see if it's for me. ;D
Another Nashvegas meetup?
Post by: mashby on Mon, 17 March 2014, 16:29:43
This is a really bold direction. I plan to drive out to MechanicalKeyboards.com to test drive this board once it's released to see if it's for me. ;D
Another Nashvegas meetup?
Sounds like a plan. What's the ETA?
Post by: Matias on Mon, 17 March 2014, 23:24:24
We actually did a prototype that supported tenting without the palm support, but it was unusable. User testing found it to be so uncomfortable that we decided we had to include the palm support in the box.
I'm really confused by this response. I've used (and I'm sure hundreds of other customers have as well) a kinesis freestyle that provides tenting without a palm support. For years. Without discomfort.
Perhaps your desk setup lends itself well to this, but we have to design for a wide range of users and circumstances. The palm supports are there for users who need them. If you don't need them, you can certainly remove them -- or you may be pleasantly surprised to find that you like them, and just didn't know what you were missing.
Post by: kod on Tue, 18 March 2014, 08:47:59
That would seem to be designing for a narrower range of users and circumstances, not a wider range...
The tripod mount hole is a neat idea, but I'm not sure I'm likely to find a 1.5" tall tripod to duplicate a normal tenting height.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:39:04
Just to be clear, if I need tilting and tenting, I can't remove the palm supports?
If you remove them, you'd have to devise your own means for raising the keyboard halves to the desired tilt/tent angle.
That would seem to be designing for a narrower range of users and circumstances, not a wider range...
Well, most users who want tilting/tenting would also need the palm supports. Otherwise, you're running the risk of wrist extension, which is decidedly not ergonomic.
Post by: kod on Tue, 18 March 2014, 11:16:00
But ergodox, m15, freestyle, goldtouch are all counterarguments to the theory that "most users" want palm supports for a split tented keyboard. What I want (and based on the market for those products, I'm not alone) is a split tent with a decent layout, just with real switches. I can keep my wrists straight, especially since my forearms are reasonably well supported by my chair arms.
Judging from the profile view at http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/resources/images/Negative-TILT-animation_445x100.gif , unless the foam is really tall, people actually resting on the palm support are going to be extending their wrists anyway.
Are the big pieces of foam at least removable from the support?
Again, not trying to be a pain... this is unfortunate, thought it was a good candidate for my next keyboard.
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 18 March 2014, 18:03:47
The only odd thing is seeing the 6 and F5 keys on the right side versus the left coming from an MS Ergo. It would end up a challenge should I end up back in WoW as I'd normally need at least 6 number keys on the left side for commonly used abilities.
Understood. My only point being that the keyboard becomes less useful for gaming is all. Though, to be honest, I do tend to prefer the 6 on the left side versus the right. Of course, I've been using MS Ergo keyboards since the 90s.
Well, for traditional touch typing, the 6 should be hit by the right index finger. Not having used any of the Microsoft split keyboards for any length of time, I have no problems with the 6 being on the right side. Certainly, all the non-standard/staggered keyboards I've used have the 6 on the right side.
<snark>Typical of Microsoft.</snark>
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 18 March 2014, 18:39:00
Attaching a support of whatever shape you like to tripod mounts is a relatively straight-forward project.
But anyway, it’s not like the extra palm wrests would get in the way of holding your wrists in the air higher up. So is your concern just that they’re bulky? Less portable? You don’t like the aesthetics? ...
Post by: davkol on Wed, 19 March 2014, 03:18:14
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 03:56:26
One of my issues would be place taken in front of the keyboard. It doesn't sound like a big deal, until you try to use a keyboard on your lap.Have you tried this? For years, I have often used a Model M on my lap with a substantial palm rest in front of it (the palm rest is built in to a plastic tray which extends under the keyboard), with no issue. Perhaps I position the keyboard differently w/r/t my lap than you do though.
A much bigger issue when using a keyboard on my lap has been figuring out which book to use for a mousepad, where to put it, and how to keep it level. :-)
Post by: davkol on Wed, 19 March 2014, 04:33:01
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 March 2014, 04:41:21
Post by: davkol on Wed, 19 March 2014, 05:02:19
Post by: kod on Wed, 19 March 2014, 09:00:52
kod: what exactly do you want here?
What do I want? A goldtouch / freestyle, just with decent switches. Seems pretty clear to me.
That wrist rest looks like it occupies a lot of space, increasing the minimum distance between me and the keyboard. It also looks like the tilt being mounted on the front of the wrist rest requires that the front edge of the wrist rest not overhang a desk or keyboard tray. Right now my keyboard is set up such that the spacebar is directly over the edge of the keyboard tray... having to move it forward e.g. 4 inches would drastically change the ergonomics.
Designing your product such that you can't have tenting without wrist rests, when your competitors allow you to have either or both as you see fit, seems like a bad idea. Especially when your stated motivation is to design for a wide range of circumstances.
As for what's stopping me from making a different tenting system... what's stopping me from getting matias switches and 3d printing my own keyboard? If I'm spending money on someone else's design, I'd prefer their design to have fewer compromises...
Post by: Matias on Wed, 19 March 2014, 11:42:55
If I understand it correctly, you can remove them, but then you lose the option to use a tripod mount. Keyboards split in halves aren't very stable, when on ones lap. That's why I'm considering a dock with a tripod mount (then palm rests would be mandatory) or velcro to attach them to my legs (then it probably wouldn't be possible to switch between velcro mount and tripod mount).
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the tripod mounts are indeed available regardless of whether you have the palm supports attached or not.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 19 March 2014, 12:18:19
I'm not trying to be argumentative, because it's pretty clear that horse has already left the stables if you're going to be shipping by August.
No problem. I actually do want to hear what people think of the design.
But ergodox, m15, freestyle, goldtouch are all counterarguments to the theory that "most users" want palm supports for a split tented keyboard.
Well, based on feedback we got from ergonomists, most of them are used flat and pushed together like a standard keyboard -- not split or tilted or tented. Sad but true.
Having said that, it doesn't really matter what others do. If you know what works for you, then that's what's important.
What I want (and based on the market for those products, I'm not alone) is a split tent with a decent layout, just with real switches. I can keep my wrists straight, especially since my forearms are reasonably well supported by my chair arms.
Judging from the profile view at http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/resources/images/Negative-TILT-animation_445x100.gif , unless the foam is really tall, people actually resting on the palm support are going to be extending their wrists anyway.
Are the big pieces of foam at least removable from the support?
Again, not trying to be a pain... this is unfortunate, thought it was a good candidate for my next keyboard.
I still think your best option (if you decide to go with the Ergo Pro) is to simply remove the palm supports, and then just place the inner rubber feet on top of blocks of wood of appropriate thickness to give you the angle you want. Wouldn't be difficult.
Post by: kod on Wed, 19 March 2014, 12:49:22
Since it looks like you're doing the same money back guarantee on the ergo as on your other keyboards, I'll probably get one anyway and hope it works out ;)
Post by: Matias on Wed, 19 March 2014, 13:59:31
Thanks for the response. Sad to hear that most people don't use the tenting or tilting...
Since it looks like you're doing the same money back guarantee on the ergo as on your other keyboards, I'll probably get one anyway and hope it works out ;)
Yes, it's a pretty safe bet. You can always return it, if you don't like it. :-)
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 19 March 2014, 14:26:38
Post by: Matias on Wed, 19 March 2014, 14:31:22
Post by: davkol on Wed, 19 March 2014, 15:20:45
If I understand it correctly, you can remove them, but then you lose the option to use a tripod mount. Keyboards split in halves aren't very stable, when on ones lap. That's why I'm considering a dock with a tripod mount (then palm rests would be mandatory) or velcro to attach them to my legs (then it probably wouldn't be possible to switch between velcro mount and tripod mount).
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the tripod mounts are indeed available regardless of whether you have the palm supports attached or not.
Thanks, I stand corrected. If the keyboard wasn't staggered, I'd go all "shut up and take my money".
What do I want? A goldtouch / freestyle, just with decent switches. Seems pretty clear to me.
FWIW didn't Kinesis plan to release a freestyle with browns? I wonder what happened to that...
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Thu, 20 March 2014, 19:28:23
First, it's been mentioned that there are tripod-mount holes in the bottom that could be used to attach a small tripod-thingy to get precise control of tilting and tenting. Are there any attachments like that which are available for purchase somewhere? It would be really convenient if I could just buy a two-pack of screw-in adjusters along with the keyboard and then have better control of the angles.
Second, have you ever considered putting a scroll wheel on your keyboard. I was browsing around recently when I stumbled upon this keyboard (http://www.ergoprise.com/posturite-number-slide-arch-keyboard/), and the instant I saw it, I knew I wanted to have a scroll wheel for my thumb. Seriously, isn't that a great idea?
Anyway, thanks for your help.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:40:05
What do I want? A goldtouch / freestyle, just with decent switches. Seems pretty clear to me.
FWIW didn't Kinesis plan to release a freestyle with browns? I wonder what happened to that...
Most likely... they couldn't get the switches. Cherry's been putting very strict lead time requirements on new orders recently -- especially for low quantities.
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:48:02
Post by: Matias on Thu, 20 March 2014, 23:13:06
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/825599-REG/Joby_GP20_01AM_GORILLAPOD_MICRO_800_GRAY.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/239963-REG/Ultrapod_PD02010_2_Black.html
B&H has lots available...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ipp=100&Ns=p_POPULARITY%7c1&ci=391&setNs=p_POPULARITY%7c1&N=4052722023&srtclk=sort
Regarding the scroll wheel, it's actually a lot more complicated than it would appear. A scroll wheel is not in the cards
Post by: Matias on Thu, 20 March 2014, 23:15:11
love the discussion and vendor support in this thread. just nudging it over a little to comply with the vendor terms of service :)
Sorry, anything I did wrong that I should avoid doing in the future?
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 21 March 2014, 03:11:36
I’m guessing some folks probably check the ergonomics subforum who wouldn’t click over to here, and it seems like there’s been a reasonable discussion going.
[Sorry to add meta-discussion noise, everyone.]
Edit: oh wait, maybe there wasn’t a discussion already in the vendor subforum; maybe it was just in “ergonomics” and “keyboards” that discussions started.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 21 March 2014, 06:52:59
Post by: glnnlrsn on Mon, 31 March 2014, 21:39:31
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Wed, 02 April 2014, 22:16:13
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Wed, 02 April 2014, 23:59:12
Post by: Scoox on Tue, 22 April 2014, 01:14:46
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 22 April 2014, 05:12:55
Staggered keys = yet another typical "ergonomic" keyboard. If you have the dedication to produce a keyboard with staggered keys, why not directly do the better thing and go for straight keys? The easy transition excuse is very feeble--anyone who can type on a normal keyboard should be able to adapt within a week and never look back.Since Matias is a commercial enterprise rather than a charity, the question here is not “what is the ideal keyboard?” but rather “what keyboard is most likely to sell?”
I think it’s great to have something like Matias’s upcoming ergo board, considering that all the similarly high quality roughly-standard-layout split mechanical keyboards of the 1990s are long out of production (e.g. the IBM Model M15, or the Cherry G80-5000). Obviously other key layouts (for example, with staggered columns, or symmetrically staggered rows) could in theory be better than the typical Sholes layout. But the Matias board looks like it will take basically zero training, while still providing many of the ergonomic benefits of other keyboards.
The closer a keyboard is to the standard layout, the less intimidating it seems, and the easier it is to sell to non-experts, for example IT directors at companies looking for ways to help their employees avoid RSI.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 May 2014, 14:03:34
1. It would be awesome if it had a trackpoint for mousing :-)
2. Staggered columns is a no go for me :-( It's a misnomer to call a keyboard ergonomic if it's asymmetrical and the key columns for both hands lean to the left. Duh. Hope you do a version that has straight columns in the future.
Matias, have you followed the Ergodox keyboard at all ? It has been amazingly successful because it is split AND has straight columns. So many people are seeing how superior the straight columns are, that the community had to make that keyboard OURSELVES, because virtually all keyboard manufacturers have been too short-sighted to see the obvious!
So, don't fear, you can do it Matias !!!
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 03 May 2014, 18:16:04
I don't find vertical columns to be superior for everyone. A columnar layout works if you do touch-typing, but not everyone does, and those people could also benefit from the ergo features of the Ergo Pro.
I also think that the ErgoDox is a bad example of a columnar layout, because the column offsets are so small. Even symmetric stagger with 1/4u offset is more ergonomic than the ErgoDox IMHO.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 May 2014, 18:31:00
As for column offsets you don't need any really in a split keyboard because you can rotate the halves as you need.
Symmetric stagger is also good, especially in non split keyboards. It would be great if Matias can produce an alternative left half that is properly staggered -:)
I'm kind of sad that all the "ergonomic" split keyboards coming out are almost the same (goldtouch, Kinesis freestyle, Comfort Keyboard, and now this Matias).
We really need some symmetric split keyboards to be produced by manufacturers so their superior ergonomics can become mainstream.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 05 May 2014, 12:45:57
Since the ErgoDox already exists and has mechanical keyswitches, we didn't feel there was a need to create another one. It's even compatible with both ALPS and Cherry-mount switches.
Ironically, it's staggered layouts that are lacking in avalaible options for mechanical keyswitches. That's the need we're looking to fill.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 05 May 2014, 13:01:04
It's coming along really nicely!
Photos are attached below. You can also see samples of some of the new PBT keycaps in the images.
Thanks to everyone who pre-ordered...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: mashby on Mon, 05 May 2014, 14:32:20
Post by: sordna on Mon, 05 May 2014, 18:47:46
Now if only the left side can also be offered in reverse stagger !!!
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Tue, 06 May 2014, 07:33:10
While waiting for the new ErgoPro, I bought the Posturite keyboard with the scroll wheel that I linked earlier, and I haven't been thrilled with it. It keeps missing some of my keypresses, but I'm going to have to live with it until the ErgoPro comes out.
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 06 May 2014, 07:40:19
Post by: maxtortheone on Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:41:50
Post by: davkol on Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:59:26
Think I'll be getting this. Alps are not bad and I don't really have the time to build an ErgoDox.
You can have it assembled. Or wait for the Axios.
Post by: maxtortheone on Wed, 07 May 2014, 12:42:40
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Thu, 08 May 2014, 04:07:34
Post by: h1ro on Thu, 05 June 2014, 16:00:42
Post by: Matias on Thu, 05 June 2014, 16:39:41
While I appreciate the Ergo Pro won't be as programmable as the Ergodox, is there any chance that the two spacebars will be able to be mapped to one as space and the other as delete?
Yes, that will be an option, but I want to clarify the details. There will be 4 DIP switches, that let you set 4 custom options...
1) Left Spacebar -> Backspace
2) Right Spacebar -> Backspace
3) PC -> Mac layout
4) Caps Lock / Ctrl -> Ctrl / Caps Lock
Let me know if any of that is unclear.
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 05 June 2014, 18:13:44
Will the PC/Mac DIP switch change the function of the right Alt/Option key or just swap the two keys left of the Space bar?
Will the right key have stabilisers and the left keys not?
Post by: Matias on Thu, 05 June 2014, 19:15:34
Good! :)
Will the PC/Mac DIP switch change the function of the right Alt/Option key or just swap the two keys left of the Space bar?
Will the right key have stabilisers and the left keys not?
When set to "Mac", the two Alt keys will become Command keys, and the Windows key will change to Option.
All keys bigger than 1.75u will have stabilizers.
The DIP switches will be under the right Alt/Command keycap. You just pop off the keycap, change your settings, then press the keycap back on.
Post by: h1ro on Fri, 06 June 2014, 06:06:01
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 10 June 2014, 15:03:56
While I appreciate the Ergo Pro won't be as programmable as the Ergodox, is there any chance that the two spacebars will be able to be mapped to one as space and the other as delete?
Yes, that will be an option, but I want to clarify the details. There will be 4 DIP switches, that let you set 4 custom options...
1) Left Spacebar -> Backspace
2) Right Spacebar -> Backspace
3) PC -> Mac layout
4) Caps Lock / Ctrl -> Ctrl / Caps Lock
Let me know if any of that is unclear.
I would like a DIP switch so the keyboard can fly, like a drone.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 11 June 2014, 13:40:38
Can you please let us know if it's a possibility?
Thank you.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 11 June 2014, 16:51:33
Dear Matias I posted another thread asking if you can consider a version of the laptop pro with a trackpoint. I am posting here because you are responding to this thread quite frequently but not the other one.
Thanks for asking. I'm going to check your other thread and answer there... (http://geekhack.org/?topic=57833.0)
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 18 June 2014, 16:27:48
On the site it mentions a 9 degree tenting angle and a 4.5 negative tilt. I can see from the gif how the negative tilt works but no idea how the 9 degree tenting happens. Any chance of a picture?
Does the final case have that lovely matt finish (rather than the rather glossy finish of your other boards)?
Did the keycaps end up being PBT and laser symbols (although otaku style would be rather cool too come to think of it!)
Thanks
Post by: Matias on Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:08:11
Couple of random questions:
On the site it mentions a 9 degree tenting angle and a 4.5 negative tilt. I can see from the gif how the negative tilt works but no idea how the 9 degree tenting happens. Any chance of a picture?
Does the final case have that lovely matt finish (rather than the rather glossy finish of your other boards)?
Did the keycaps end up being PBT and laser symbols (although otaku style would be rather cool too come to think of it!)
Sure...
See attached drawing for the tenting.
Yes, the case is matte, but still made from the same high-quality (and more expensive) polycarbonate material.
All the new keycap sizes are PBT. The standard caps are ABS. We're using a UV printing process for the legends (UV paint).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: h1ro on Thu, 19 June 2014, 06:47:04
What led to the decision to mix both PBT and ABS? Does it feel odd when typing switching between the two?
Post by: Matias on Fri, 20 June 2014, 20:36:20
What led to the decision to mix both PBT and ABS? Does it feel odd when typing switching between the two?
We only did tooling for the keycaps that weren't already available from our keycap supplier. We did those in PBT. Our supplier's tooling is for ABS.
It doesn't feel odd switching between the two, since they are on different sized keys, and we matched the texture and shape of the PBT caps to the original ABS ones.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 20 June 2014, 22:42:14
We only did tooling for the keycaps that weren't already available from our keycap supplier. We did those in PBT. Our supplier's tooling is for ABS.Are you planning to add PBT tooling for standard key sizes in the future, or just stick with the caps you can already get for those?
Post by: Matias on Sat, 21 June 2014, 00:24:50
We only did tooling for the keycaps that weren't already available from our keycap supplier. We did those in PBT. Our supplier's tooling is for ABS.Are you planning to add PBT tooling for standard key sizes in the future, or just stick with the caps you can already get for those?
Yes, the plan is to have all key sizes available in PBT.
Long term, I'd like to move away from ABS completely, but we're playing things by ear.
Post by: h1ro on Sat, 21 June 2014, 04:16:45
And +1 on the completely PBT keycaps for the future
Post by: Matias on Sun, 22 June 2014, 14:07:18
Thanks for the info - this is such a useful thread!
Yes, I agree.
And another one was especially useful, as it led to the addition of settings DIP switches. Pat yourselves on the back... :-)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53183.msg1200646#msg1200646
Post by: Matias on Tue, 24 June 2014, 16:11:36
Okay, I just got an update on the production schedule for the Ergo Pro...
It's looking like we're going to miss the August production date by a few months. The PBT keycaps are taking a little longer than expected, and we have to redo the electronics to support the DIP switches and lockable embedded number pad.
Our best guess is around October, but we're telling everyone December (just to be safe). This also coincides with the National Ergonomics Conference & Expo (http://www.ergoexpo.com) (NECE) where the Ergo Pro will make its official debut.
I know that a lot of you will be disappointed with the delay -- especially those who pre-ordered. We feel bad about that, so we are giving everyone who pre-ordered prior to this announcement a free iRizer laptop stand (http://matias.ca/irizer/laptops)...
(http://matias.ca/irizer/laptops/viewer/6.jpg) (http://matias.ca/irizer/laptops/viewer/?p=5)
If you plan to use your Ergo Pro with a laptop, you'll need a stand and the iRizer is the best one we make. It even includes a little MiniRizer (http://matias.ca/minirizer) for your smartphone / business cards / etc. They usually sell for $39.95. We really appreciate your support, and hope this small gift helps make up for the delay.
Next, I have some GOOD news to announce...
I can now officially state that the Ergo Pro will be available in ISO layouts for Europe. UK, German, and Nordic versions of the Ergo Pro will be available exclusively from The Keyboard Company (http://matias.ca/keyboardco) (our European distributor). If you wish to pre-order a European Ergo Pro, please contact them.
Thanks again for your patience.
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Fri, 27 June 2014, 04:14:40
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 27 June 2014, 04:38:14
Post by: Matias on Fri, 27 June 2014, 19:39:08
Am glad that I did not pre-order yet, as I am still unsure if you take the money now or at a later date, so I'd hate to think of my money being tied up for all those months :P Am sure it would be worth it in the end, but will wait a bit longer :)
I thought I'd addressed this before. Anyway...
Your credit card would be charged at the time you place the order. Our card processing service doesn't allow for deferred payments. As a "thank you" for this inconvenience, we give you free shipping and (to those who pre-ordered early) a free iRizer stand.
If at any time you decide you don't want to wait, you can always ask for a refund and we'll credit you back the full amount.
So far, I think we've only had one person cancel their order. The rest seem to be happy to have the new features.
I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?
Perhaps, but that would require a complete re-design of the electronics. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 27 June 2014, 20:13:21
It’s too bad the margins are so tight on keyboards. An extra $5 on the BOM would get you enough CPU/etc. to do pretty much whatever you wanted with the firmware.I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?
Perhaps, but that would require a complete re-design of the electronics. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 27 June 2014, 23:56:19
It’s too bad the margins are so tight on keyboards. An extra $5 on the BOM would get you enough CPU/etc. to do pretty much whatever you wanted with the firmware.I'm glad the 'virtual' numpad is getting a locking mode. Will that feature trickle down into other Matias numpad-less keyboards?
Perhaps, but that would require a complete re-design of the electronics. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Actually, it's not margins, but design philosophy...
1) Modifiable firmware on a keyboard is an unnecessary security hole. We live in a world where the NSA (and others) intercept electronics shipments, and flash their firmware to introduce security vulnerabilities. I can't stop them from doing that if they really want to, but I don't need to make it easy for them.
2) I think lockable embedded number pads are bad design. If you need a number pad, get a number pad. Embedding one is a kludge... It pulls you out of home row, the columns don't line up properly, the minus-star-slash keys are in the wrong place, Enter is now too far away and awkward to reach with your little finger. If you lock the number pad by accident, you're typing gibberish. I could go on all day about why embedded number pads are all kinds of wrong.
However, people want what they're used to, so we're putting them in from now on. :)
3) I'm a strong believer in macro software. Pretty much anything you want to do to manipulate a keyboard layout can be done via appropriate software running on your PC. And macro software can adjust behaviour according to context, whereas fancy firmware in your keyboard has no clue what app is running.
I suspect most people here will disagree with me, but we design stuff for a wide range of users -- not just hardware hobbiests -- so our priorities are a little different.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 28 June 2014, 00:47:32
The main thing I don’t like (AT ALL) about the current Matias keyboards with virtual numpads is that the Fn key is on the right hand, and the numpad is also on the right hand. This makes it extremely awkward to actually use as a numpad. This is a different design from nearly all keyboards with a similar virtual numpad feature [mainly on various laptops], where the Fn key is pressed with the left hand, leaving the right hand free to actually use the numpad.
So adding a numpad lock is a way of getting around that design flaw in a relatively painless way.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 28 June 2014, 00:54:49
3) I'm a strong believer in macro software. Pretty much anything you want to do to manipulate a keyboard layout can be done via appropriate software running on your PC. And macro software can adjust behaviour according to context, whereas fancy firmware in your keyboard has no clue what app is running.The problem is that, at least on a Mac, you can’t use user-space level software – or even a new system-level declarative keyboard layout – to change which keys are defined as modifiers, or to intercept certain keyboard shortcuts. Instead, you need to install a separate keyboard driver or kernel extension or similar, and these can have odd bugs and cause system instability. Often configuring these is a pain in the ass, and writing a new one from scratch would be a bigger pain.
For anyone who wants to carry their keyboard from one machine to another, or especially from on OS to another, having everything set up in computer software makes it a huge headache to get setup.
Current macro software tends to not be fully flexible with some kinds of input, for example moving the mouse around the screen, or scrolling. Sometimes you can sort of hack it together, but just emulating a mouse at the keyboard level can be much easier to get working.
* * *
But I can respect your point about making things harder for the NSA & al. If I were shipping a consumer product I would probably make different choices than I do when building my own DIY hardware.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 28 June 2014, 05:09:44
Post by: hjkl_over_wasd on Sat, 28 June 2014, 05:44:23
I read that custom firmware isn't something that is going to be supported, but are the Matias keyboards all running in PS/2-mode over a USB cabel?
That would at least enable DIY'ers to use a teensy/TMK setup without too much hassle.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 28 June 2014, 16:07:30
I read that custom firmware isn't something that is going to be supported, but are the Matias keyboards all running in PS/2-mode over a USB cabel?
That would at least enable DIY'ers to use a teensy/TMK setup without too much hassle.
No, they are USB through a 3-port USB 2.0 hub.
The electronics are all on a daughter board though, so DIYers can replace the electronics easily by creating a new daughter board and plug that into the main PCB that has all the switches soldered onto it.
Post by: h1ro on Sat, 28 June 2014, 16:18:24
I'm curious - what connector type goes between the two sections?
Post by: Matias on Sat, 28 June 2014, 17:07:19
Matias - I'm really pleased about the design change. Happy to wait for the board, but the laptop riser is a nice thought - thanks!
Thanks, response so far has been very understanding and positive.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 28 June 2014, 17:38:54
Now a daughterboard sounds like a fantastic idea (although well beyond me!)
I'm curious - what connector type goes between the two sections?
Pin header connectors. Very easy to source.
Post by: h1ro on Sun, 29 June 2014, 07:06:21
Post by: MissMurd3r84 on Sun, 29 June 2014, 22:58:47
My apologies if I had indeed missed you responding earlier. Cheers :)
Am glad that I did not pre-order yet, as I am still unsure if you take the money now or at a later date, so I'd hate to think of my money being tied up for all those months :P Am sure it would be worth it in the end, but will wait a bit longer :)
I thought I'd addressed this before. Anyway...
Your credit card would be charged at the time you place the order. Our card processing service doesn't allow for deferred payments. As a "thank you" for this inconvenience, we give you free shipping and (to those who pre-ordered early) a free iRizer stand.
If at any time you decide you don't want to wait, you can always ask for a refund and we'll credit you back the full amount.
So far, I think we've only had one person cancel their order. The rest seem to be happy to have the new features.
Post by: h1ro on Fri, 11 July 2014, 07:39:55
"but each key in the Fn layer will have its own unique keycode, which you can capture and assign to a macro on your PC/Mac"
Is that going to be the case with the ErgoPro?
Post by: argcargv on Sat, 12 July 2014, 22:36:13
Matias talked alot about being able to get any remap using software on the computer.
So each key has to have different keycode for software on the computer to be able to tell the difference and thus remap them.
Post by: h1ro on Sun, 13 July 2014, 12:49:12
Post by: argcargv on Tue, 19 August 2014, 10:44:43
Post by: Grim Fandango on Tue, 19 August 2014, 11:05:39
One thing I wonder though is whether there will be any lighter Matias Alps switches. I like the feel of the ones that they are currently using. But if I were to buy a keyboard that really focuses on comfort, I would like the actuation force to be a lot less than what I have felt from other Matias boards. Looks incredibly good though.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 19 August 2014, 21:59:24
Any updates? Just made an order :D
Great!
We're still waiting on the rest of the keycap tooling. We expect to be able to assemble a complete sample by Thursday or Friday. Will post photos when we do.
One thing I wonder though is whether there will be any lighter Matias Alps switches. I like the feel of the ones that they are currently using. But if I were to buy a keyboard that really focuses on comfort, I would like the actuation force to be a lot less than what I have felt from other Matias boards. Looks incredibly good though.
Thanks, we're doing linear switches (around 45gf) for a customer, and will be selling those separately as well. You could always swap out the springs for those -- a bit of work, but do-able.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Thu, 21 August 2014, 01:07:17
Thanks, we're doing linear switches (around 45gf) for a customer, and will be selling those separately as well. You could always swap out the springs for those -- a bit of work, but do-able.
This is good to hear! It is of course an entirely subjective thing, but to me a lighter switch is just more comfortable since I spend 4+ hours a day typing (not sitting behind a computer, which I do almost 10 hours a day, but actually typing).
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 21 August 2014, 01:28:10
Thanks, we're doing linear switches (around 45gf) for a customer, and will be selling those separately as well. You could always swap out the springs for those -- a bit of work, but do-able.Do you have full specs of these new springs and the springs in your clicky/tactile switches? (I.e. total unloaded length, stiffness, wire gauge/material, spring diameter, unloaded length of active section, number of active coils, total length at switch actuation / bottom-out. Or some subset of those would be useful even. Assuming the switch feel could be kept roughly similar with a different spring, I think you could find quite a few customers who would prefer a lower-actuation-force switch, which could be accomplished with a shorter spring or less stiff one.)
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 27 August 2014, 10:41:19
Anyone have any experience on remapping such dedicated keys?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 27 August 2014, 11:44:24
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 27 August 2014, 12:30:52
Post by: argcargv on Wed, 27 August 2014, 12:33:44
I can only dream about being able to remap on the hardware level
Post by: davkol on Wed, 27 August 2014, 13:02:38
So, there's gonna be, non-sanctioned programability?
I prefer the term "hackable". :-)
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 27 August 2014, 14:37:52
Hopefully there will be many unique keycodes we can remap in software.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 01 September 2014, 06:37:52
Sorry for the radio silence. Heading back to Canada tomorrow...
We did get the samples assembled. They are rock solid and super-comfortable to type on. Photos below. The first one is the ISO model for Europe. There's a Japanese sample too, but I haven't assembled it yet.
The undo/cut/copy/paste keys generate the appropriate key combo's for Windows or Mac. There will be codes in the Fn layer, that you can capture and re-assign.
Thanks for all the questions and discussion...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: h1ro on Mon, 01 September 2014, 06:52:02
Thanks for all your hard work - I can't wait to type on it. The negative angle makes much more sense from those pictures. Looks like you added a cut away at the front? Easier access for the space bar I'm guessing?
Great news about the remapping. Have a safe trip home
Post by: argcargv on Mon, 01 September 2014, 08:31:07
Post by: argcargv on Mon, 01 September 2014, 16:51:25
Wow, that's looking rather sexy!
Thanks for all your hard work - I can't wait to type on it. The negative angle makes much more sense from those pictures. Looks like you added a cut away at the front? Easier access for the space bar I'm guessing?
Great news about the remapping. Have a safe trip home
The cut away is very neat!
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Tue, 02 September 2014, 00:18:52
Post by: ReneFroger on Fri, 26 September 2014, 18:20:16
If so, it would be an instant buy for me. Any thoughts on this, Matias?
Post by: Tiramisuu on Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:23:47
Post by: Matias on Fri, 26 September 2014, 19:59:51
Regarding the spacebars, the spec currently allows for changing either of them to be individually assigned Space or Backspace.
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 27 September 2014, 03:51:11
absolutely true story dudes.
fwiw i was really jazzed about getting it
Post by: Matias on Sat, 27 September 2014, 03:55:15
i seriously just had a dream that i bought one of these and it turned out to be a DIY kit made out of cardboard. i have no idea what it means, but there you go.
absolutely true story dudes.
fwiw i was really jazzed about getting it
We use only the absolute finest cardboard for our imaginary keyboards... :-)
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 27 September 2014, 04:30:18
Post by: Latin00032 on Sat, 27 September 2014, 05:24:15
Post by: argcargv on Sun, 28 September 2014, 20:02:22
Post by: argcargv on Tue, 07 October 2014, 10:38:25
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0
and keep the left one as a simple spacebar for games.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 21 October 2014, 12:46:29
Snapshot of the front box art is attached... :-)
[attachimg=1]
Post by: argcargv on Tue, 21 October 2014, 12:52:34
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 21 October 2014, 13:37:24
Post by: skrotnisse on Tue, 11 November 2014, 02:37:55
Have you finalized the layout for ergo pro nordic?
Also, I am about to buy a imac and want to match an ergo pro with it. Will there be an ergo pro nordic for mac?
Post by: h1ro on Tue, 18 November 2014, 08:23:24
Post by: pnutster on Sat, 22 November 2014, 10:38:42
I would purchase / pre-order 5 of them if they came in a matrix / non-staggered layout. Hopefully in future???
Beautiful otherwise, love the built in negative tilting and tenting!!!
And the quest for "the perfect keyboard" continues :eek:
Post by: Talfrey on Sat, 22 November 2014, 20:32:36
Hopefully I will get it in time for Christmas ;D
Post by: Gerk on Thu, 04 December 2014, 11:21:58
Post by: crazystu on Fri, 05 December 2014, 01:27:36
Oh well, still looking forward to this!
Post by: Gerk on Fri, 05 December 2014, 08:52:50
Post by: Matias on Sat, 06 December 2014, 18:25:32
Here are a few photos from ErgoExpo last week. The Ergo Pro Keyboard made a big splash with the ergonomists...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
[attachimg=10]
As you can see, we'll also be selling replacement palm supports in different colours -- a black one comes included with the keyboard.
Let me know if you have any questions...
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 06 December 2014, 18:35:56
Post by: Shayde on Sat, 06 December 2014, 18:39:34
Looks great! Now you just need to get it set up tented 30°+, rotated inward a bit, and tell your hand models to make sure it’s at the proper height. (The guy in picture #4 has both wrists extended and pronated and his right wrist adducted quite a bit.)
#4 looks like the guy is standing to one side of the keyboard, and of course is standing, so it's not the best example really.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 06 December 2014, 18:47:43
Looks great! Now you just need to get it set up tented 30°+, rotated inward a bit, and tell your hand models to make sure it's at the proper height. (The guy in picture #4 has both wrists extended and pronated and his right wrist adducted quite a bit.)
#4 looks like the guy is standing to one side of the keyboard, and of course is standing, so it's not the best example really.
Yeah, ironically these high tables are not ergonomic at all. Not the best environment for demonstrating an ergonomic keyboard. :)
Post by: dante on Sat, 06 December 2014, 19:02:39
Post by: byker on Sat, 06 December 2014, 22:16:40
Post by: h1ro on Sun, 07 December 2014, 08:22:59
Thanks for all the pictures!
Post by: Talfrey on Wed, 31 December 2014, 10:07:28
That looks very cool. Excited at all of the ergodox competitors that are coming to market.
All?
There are others?
Post by: byker on Wed, 31 December 2014, 14:05:57
That looks very cool. Excited at all of the ergodox competitors that are coming to market.
All?
There are others?
http://uniquekeyboard.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=135
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 31 December 2014, 17:25:54
There are [other ergonomic keyboards coming to market]?Check this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54858.0
Post by: Talfrey on Tue, 06 January 2015, 00:03:59
Late January or early February last I heard, hopefully no further delays?
Post by: 7th1rt3en on Tue, 06 January 2015, 18:44:24
Do we have any update on these?
Late January or early February last I heard, hopefully no further delays?
I bet at this point that there's little left to do, little that can cause delays. I'm really looking forward to it, my first mechanical keyboard and first ergo.
Post by: zxz on Sat, 17 January 2015, 06:22:36
Post by: Matias on Sun, 18 January 2015, 17:53:46
Got my pre order in for the iso version with Keyboardco! Will it have a usb hub built in like the mini I'm currently using? Also will we be able to buy a full set of PBT keycaps for the ergo pro with UK printed caps?
Yes, it has a 3-port USB 2.0 hub built in.
You'll be able to buy a full set of PBT keycaps when we get the keycap tooling finished (no schedule on that yet).
Post by: h1ro on Mon, 19 January 2015, 06:54:55
Post by: Matias on Mon, 19 January 2015, 08:42:19
Thanks for the update Matias - hope the steel mounting plate issue is easily fixed!
Yeah, it's easy. We met with the vendor yesterday, and they're already working on it...
Post by: h1ro on Mon, 19 January 2015, 09:03:44
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 19 January 2015, 09:06:30
Post by: Matias on Mon, 19 January 2015, 09:15:27
Excellent. And so great that you can be there to oversee the final stages of your masterpiece :)
Thanks. :-) We certainly seem to have hit a sweet spot with this design, though you can't please everyone... :-)
This looks really nice I wish it allowed for reprogramming of keys. :(
Macro software is your friend. All things are possible with it.
Post by: pss395 on Mon, 19 January 2015, 15:13:59
The only problem I have is I've only use MX Brown and their lightness is perfect for me. I'm not sure if I'll like the stiffer Matias Quiet switches or not.
Post by: zxz on Tue, 20 January 2015, 17:31:39
Post by: Gerk on Sun, 25 January 2015, 15:45:47
I'm in China now for the run up to production. It's all looking good. We're sorting out a few issues with the steel mounting plates, but nothing major.
w00t! I'm getting excited. My one goldtouch is getting kinda rough and needs to be bumped from the daily driver position. How exactly do the two pieces connect together again? I thought I saw USB at one point but then I thought I read something else. Are we going to be able to use a longer cable so we can further split the board halves?
Post by: tt on Fri, 30 January 2015, 10:28:43
The undo/cut/copy/paste keys generate the appropriate key combo's for Windows or Mac.
Does this mean that I won't be able to use it in Emacs? There is apparently a keysym in X11 (i.e. something you can map a scancode to) called "copy" which Emacs helpfully tells me to use in the future every time I manually run the clipboard-kill-ring-save command – I was hoping I could bind this copy key to that.
If it just sends ctrl+x, that's totally useless: 1) that key combination means something completely different in Emacs; and 2) I already have the ctrl and x keys for that.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 30 January 2015, 11:41:04
w00t! I'm getting excited. My one goldtouch is getting kinda rough and needs to be bumped from the daily driver position. How exactly do the two pieces connect together again? I thought I saw USB at one point but then I thought I read something else. Are we going to be able to use a longer cable so we can further split the board halves?
The two sides connect with a male-to-male TRRS cable, which is the same plug used by the earbuds that come with all the smartphones these days. Extension cables are available in various lengths.
I'd love to have one of these keyboard. For $200 I can have a preassembled keyboard with wrist rest, keycaps and tent feet included. Pretty sweet.
The only problem I have is I've only use MX Brown and their lightness is perfect for me. I'm not sure if I'll like the stiffer Matias Quiet switches or not.
Actually, Quiet Click switches are not as heavy as you might think. They're tactile, so the peak force falls rapidly after actuation.
In contrast, Cherry switches are a simple linear spring design, so their peak force has to be lower (since there's no fall off -- the opposite, in fact). It's a limitation of the Cherry design.
The undo/cut/copy/paste keys generate the appropriate key combo's for Windows or Mac.
Does this mean that I won't be able to use it in Emacs? There is apparently a keysym in X11 (i.e. something you can map a scancode to) called "copy" which Emacs helpfully tells me to use in the future every time I manually run the clipboard-kill-ring-save command � I was hoping I could bind this copy key to that.
If it just sends ctrl+x, that's totally useless: 1) that key combination means something completely different in Emacs; and 2) I already have the ctrl and x keys for that.
Yes, it sends Ctrl-X or Command-X etc. for PC vs. Mac.
The macro keys are there primarily for users who don't use (or are not aware of) the normal keyboard shortcuts. In Emacs they (unfortunately) will not be of much use to you.
Post by: tt on Fri, 30 January 2015, 12:11:32
Yes, it sends Ctrl-X or Command-X etc. for PC vs. Mac.
The macro keys are there primarily for users who don't use (or are not aware of) the normal keyboard shortcuts. In Emacs they (unfortunately) will not be of much use to you.
That is unfortunate. I suppose it's way too late to have another mode that just gives each key its own scancode?
Now, about the keycaps, what are the options for those that use an unpopular Dvorak variant? Could I get blank keycaps, or side-printed keycaps (like the Filco Ninja keyboards), or maybe dark-gray on black (like certain Topre models)? (Just to avoid having qwerty staring me in the face.)
Post by: Gerk on Tue, 03 February 2015, 09:21:36
The two sides connect with a male-to-male TRRS cable, which is the same plug used by the earbuds that come with all the smartphones these days. Extension cables are available in various lengths.
Fantastic. Thanks for the reply. I see from the website that the first run is sold out -- congrats :) Really looking forward to getting this board and giving it a shot, I can finally do what I've wanted to do forever with this board -- I want to make the "mad hacker chair" and have the keyboard halves each mounted to shelves attached to the armrests of the chair and have them flip up so you can get in and out of it. If I get around to doing this I'll post some pics for sure .. I think I have a pretty good plan and most of the hardware already to execute this, just waiting for the board to arrive before I commit to some of the last bits to make sure it all fits as expected :)
Post by: Talfrey on Mon, 09 February 2015, 00:48:25
Should I be excited that there have been no delays, or concerned that nothing has been said? :)
Hoping I get this baby soon!
Post by: worzel666 on Tue, 10 February 2015, 18:50:51
Post by: Gerk on Sat, 14 February 2015, 09:09:10
I got a truly ergonomic on the very first pre-order run, yes it was delayed, yes it finally did come, and yes they also finally released the remapping software. Unfortunately I never got fully used to the alternate layout (would have been PERFECT had they just kept normal key positions but used the cool staggered keys), and I still have it boxed for resale.
This pre-order definitely feels similar; the delays don't surprise me and I'm sure we'll get them eventually.
Do you work for Truly Ergonomic or something? That was the understatement of the century. It took them almost two full years after their initially promised ship date to get the hardware in people's hands and they outright lied over and over and over again in the process, and they never did ship the firmware remapping software at all (at least in the way they promised it) -- they do have some web based thing that I've never used (as it arrived another year or two after the keyboard and by that time I had given up on using mine due to all the problems with it).
This pre-order doesn't feel anything like that one. Matias is active here on the forums, has informed everyone up front about delays and it hasn't been dragging on for two years with lie after lie about shipping dates. He's been very up front on the setbacks (they happen). Lastly Matis is a very reputable company with a long history -- Truly ergonomic, not so much.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:35:25
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Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:47:49
Post by: h1ro on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:56:57
Thanks so much for sharing the pics
Post by: Matias on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:44:38
Those are amazing shots! Love seeing the care taken by the assembler there looking at the connection between the upper and lower case. I am now officially excited to get my pre order. Any idea when shipping will start (uk here)
Thanks so much for sharing the pics
Thanks!
They're being flown in now. The exact shipping schedule will depend on how soon they clear customs.
If you're in the UK but pre-ordered a US model, it'll ship from Taiwan. If you ordered a UK/German/Nordic one, those will be done in the next production run (in about a month).
Post by: intelli78 on Mon, 16 February 2015, 13:08:25
Post by: Matias on Mon, 16 February 2015, 14:03:45
Good stuff. Which switches will be available?
For the first 2 production runs, Quiet switches only. We're considering doing a Massdrop for other either clicky or linear.
BTW I just saw that we're currently leading their vote for best split keyboard... :-)
https://www.massdrop.com/vote/best-splitted-keyboard
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Post by: Hairball on Mon, 16 February 2015, 14:33:51
I'm holing off until I see some hands-on impressions/reviews or if the massdrop, well, drops and it's becomes an offer I can't refuse.
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 16 February 2015, 17:42:05
Post by: litster on Mon, 16 February 2015, 17:58:54
Post by: Matias on Fri, 20 February 2015, 10:29:54
http://imgur.com/a/xPAJY/
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2witnw/review_matias_ergo_pro_unboxing_and_mini_review/
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2witnw/review_matias_ergo_pro_unboxing_and_mini_review/
Post by: Gerk on Fri, 20 February 2015, 10:45:20
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 20 February 2015, 21:47:47
Post by: Matias on Fri, 20 February 2015, 21:56:32
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can't wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)
You can see them here... (silver screws)
(http://i.imgur.com/5QO5ldhh.jpg)
Post by: FullTwisting on Sat, 21 February 2015, 14:10:39
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can't wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)
You can see them here... (silver screws)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5QO5ldhh.jpg)
Does this mean that tripods and palm wrests are mutually exclusive? I expected to see a dedicated tripod mount in the middle. I was hoping to retain the palm wrests and use small tripods to achieve tent and tilt at the same time, since it looks like the keyboard itself only supports tenting OR tilting.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 21 February 2015, 15:25:39
Are there any pictures showing the tripod mounts? I can't wait for someone to build a custom frame for tenting this keyboard at a 40°+ angle. :-)
You can see them here... (silver screws)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5QO5ldhh.jpg)
Does this mean that tripods and palm wrests are mutually exclusive? I expected to see a dedicated tripod mount in the middle. I was hoping to retain the palm wrests and use small tripods to achieve tent and tilt at the same time, since it looks like the keyboard itself only supports tenting OR tilting.
No, not at all...
You just remove the centre screw on each side, and that becomes the mounting hole for each tripod. It works with or without the palm supports.
Post by: Matias on Sun, 22 February 2015, 15:09:30
Anyone who wants to engage further with him is encouraged to go there (https://geekhack.org/?topic=69109.0).
Post by: bcredbottle on Sun, 22 February 2015, 15:20:35
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 23 February 2015, 16:53:28
If I were to place an order now would I still get in on the 2nd production run scheduled to ship in March? Very interested here... :D
Post by: Matias on Mon, 23 February 2015, 18:45:53
*ahem* Back on topic now ;)
If I were to place an order now would I still get in on the 2nd production run scheduled to ship in March? Very interested here... :D
Yes, production would happen in March but you'd likely get it in April.
BTW, we've gotten a bunch of people unhappy about the position of the NumLock key (next to the N key). They prefer it to be Ctrl instead. That would mean that NumLock would change to an Fn-key combination.
Anybody have strong feelings about this? There's still time to change it, depending on the consensus.
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Mon, 23 February 2015, 18:59:25
Post by: litster on Mon, 23 February 2015, 20:05:03
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Post by: FullTwisting on Mon, 23 February 2015, 22:19:02
BTW, we've gotten a bunch of people unhappy about the position of the NumLock key (next to the N key). They prefer it to be Ctrl instead. That would mean that NumLock would change to an Fn-key combination.
Anybody have strong feelings about this? There's still time to change it, depending on the consensus.
I would prefer Ctrl.
I hope that makes it into the next run since I've pre-ordered.
I was expecting the Ctrl based on this diagram: http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/?p=2 (http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/?p=2)
I read about a dip switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl. Was that implemented?
Post by: Matias on Mon, 23 February 2015, 22:33:52
I read about a dip switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl. Was that implemented?
Yes, here are the DIP switch functions available...
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Post by: sordna on Mon, 23 February 2015, 23:01:07
BTW, we've gotten a bunch of people unhappy about the position of the NumLock key (next to the N key). They prefer it to be Ctrl instead. That would mean that NumLock would change to an Fn-key combination.
Anybody have strong feelings about this? There's still time to change it, depending on the consensus.
I would argue for control also. It's useful to have as many modifiers as possible in both sides of a keyboard, so that one handed contortions can be avoided.
Post by: crazystu on Tue, 24 February 2015, 00:06:08
I would also argue for Ctrl to be to the left of N in future runs, as I don't think num-lock will be used very often.
Post by: zxz on Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:23:27
Post by: h1ro on Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:27:49
Post by: SilverRubicon on Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:53:01
Maybe if numlock is a heavy pc user request
Have never used numlock in my entire life. Can't believe anyone would be clamoring for a numlock key in that position. But I'm a developer and typing strings of numbers is not my thing. If typing numbers was my thing, I'd purchase a keyboard with a num pad. Don't really understand the need for the numlock in a prominent position.
Post by: FullTwisting on Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:35:07
I read about a dip switch to change Caps Lock to Ctrl. Was that implemented?
Yes, here are the DIP switch functions available...
Thank you, that's good to see.
Can you clarify one thing for me please? The word "swap" is throwing me off. Does this dip switch "swap" the code sent by the Caps Lock key and the Ctrl keys? In other words, if I toggle this dip switch, will the left Ctrl key start acting like a Caps Lock? I'm hoping that this dip switch simply remaps Caps Lock to Ctrl. Caps lock has no place in my life! ;)
Post by: davkol on Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:39:01
Post by: FullTwisting on Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:13:04
Hopefully, it swaps them. You can still remap Caps Lock to something actually useful, such a layer toggle, backspace, etc.
That's an interesting thought. Do other keyboards that support Ctrl tweaking behave that way? My WASD Code can change the Caps Lock to a Ctrl, but leaves the existing Ctrl alone. For my MS Ergo 4000, I've modified the Windows registry to remap Caps Lock to Ctrl, so I'm used to having no Caps Lock at all. So, for that one machine I don't need to worry about it, but having a dip switch like the one on my Code makes it portable, meaning I don't have to mess with the Registry to have my keyboard work "correctly" on other computers. ;D
Post by: sordna on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:20:25
Besides, many people use caps lock. Swapping would be the proper design choice for Matias.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 25 February 2015, 00:28:28
Remember, we designed this for a broad audience (not just for one person with a vandetta against the Caps Lock key :) ).
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Wed, 25 February 2015, 10:41:29
Anyway, I'd like to weigh in on the Num Lock vs. Ctrl issue. I think that there's actually two separate things to think about here.
First, there's the question of whether the Num Lock key or the Ctrl key is more useful. I have a strong feeling about this based on my usage; others may disagree. Let me ask you this: do you know what the default host key is for VirtualBox? No, it's not the "Ctrl" key. It's actually "Right Ctrl" specifically! So, yeah, I definitely want to vote for "Ctrl" being the key beside the "N".
Second, there seems to be some confusion regarding the expected layouts for the keyboards. I just went over and checked the layout pictures on the official Matias web-site, and they seem to show the key as being "Ctrl" rather than "Num Lock" (this is true for both Mac and PC versions). My question is: have the layout pictures always been like this? Or have they been updated in the months since I originally ordered? If you're going to put a "Num Lock" key there, then you should definitely update those pictures.
Given that I've already received my ErgoPro keyboard, is there any chance that I could perhaps order a "Ctrl" keycap to replace the current "Num Lock" one? If I can somehow re-map the key and replace the keycap, then that would solve what is basically my only issue with the keyboard.
Thanks, and great work on the design of the keyboard!
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 25 February 2015, 13:16:06
It has to be said, the space bar is a work of art.
Using the tenting, the keyboard feels very solid and wobble-free. There are rubber stops in pretty much any position so I don't think anyone should have any issues with keyboard slipping.
But why does the angled usb plug go to the left, rather than the right? So as it connects on the right part of the keyboard, the usb cable trails across the space between panels, rather than if it angled to the right it could just go down the side of the desk. That doesn't make any sense to me!
As a first timer on Matias Quiet switches, they really don't make much noise at all.
Anyone have any questions?
Post by: Hairball on Wed, 25 February 2015, 13:20:18
It has to be said, the space bar is a work of art.Ooh, can you expand on this a bit? What is it you like about it compared to "normal" space bars?
Quote
As a first timer on Matias Quiet switches, they really don't make much noise at all.Have you used other mechanical keyboards? If so, can you compare the feel of the switches to Cherry MX (what I'm most familiar with, blues or browns in particular.)
Thanks!
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 25 February 2015, 13:36:23
can you compare the feel of [Matias quiet] switches to Cherry MXThe closest you’ll get in a Cherry MX switch is either a clear switch modded with a lighter (“korean” 65g perhaps?) spring, or else a blue switch with the “jailhouse” mod, where the two parts of the slider are held apart with some wire or an o-ring. Those still aren’t great comparisons though.
Compared to MX brown, Matias quiet switches are quieter on both down and upstroke, dramatically more tactile (much larger force drop, and crisper), somewhat stiffer (though still not as stiff as MX clear, black, or green), and with a tactile/actuation point much earlier in the stroke.
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 25 February 2015, 14:01:23
Mine just arrived in the UK and am typing on it now.My box had two USB cables, one angles to the left and the other to the right. Ended up using the one that angles to the left, doesn't seem to be a problem, but to be fair I thought it would be awkward.
It has to be said, the space bar is a work of art.
Using the tenting, the keyboard feels very solid and wobble-free. There are rubber stops in pretty much any position so I don't think anyone should have any issues with keyboard slipping.
But why does the angled usb plug go to the left, rather than the right? So as it connects on the right part of the keyboard, the usb cable trails across the space between panels, rather than if it angled to the right it could just go down the side of the desk. That doesn't make any sense to me!
As a first timer on Matias Quiet switches, they really don't make much noise at all.
Anyone have any questions?
Post by: h1ro on Wed, 25 February 2015, 14:38:12
So the spacebar has a very subtle curve to it. It feels like it falls very naturally under the thumb. I think this is, in part, due to the large size. I'm used to keyboard spacebars with a relatively short depth, as it were, but with this one being so large, it feels like it sits under the entire length of the top joint of my thumb. It's very comfortable.
As for switches, it reminds me of my old AEKII from back in the day. The Cherry switch with which I am most familiar is the red. I was slightly concerned about the actuation weight on the Matias, but so far (in my vast 2 hours of experience with the switch) this doesn't seem to be an issue. The 'thunk' of the switch seems must lower in tone than the reds and having the same dampening on both the up and down strokes leads to a consistent feel.
@hoggy
How weird. I just checked and both of the cables I got angle to the left. I wonder what is the intended in box supply. Having one of each makes sense I guess, but both to the left is just odd. For me, it's not awkward just visually irritating having the cable go between the two panels.
Also, for those interested, I looked at the numlock key with Karabiner in debug mode and the key doesn't appear to send any signal at all down the wire so remapping looks highly unlikely.
I didn't think i'd be a fan of the wrist rests but they are surprisingly comfortable.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:35:47
There's a very high probability that the Num Lock key will be changed to right Ctrl in the next production run. Will update you again soon on this.
Glad you like the Spacebars. :) I drove our engineer a little nuts doing different variations, until we got it right. Nice to hear that the effort was worth it.
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.
Regarding the Micro-USB cables, they all veer to the left, so that users plugging them into laptops can position them directly in front, without interference from a perpendicular cable end. We provide 2 lengths, so that desktop and laptop users aren't left with a cable that's too long or too short.
If you got one that veers to the right, then it was done by mistake at the factory. It may be a collectors' item. :)
BTW, the shorter cable has an "upside-down-proof" plug on the computer side. The logic being that you'll be plugging/unplugging frequently if you use a laptop, so we've eliminated any chance of you plugging it in upside-down.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Post by: h1ro on Thu, 26 February 2015, 09:26:29
re: left angle cables
I'm so pleased there was a reason for this decision, I knew there must be as everything on the board is so well thought out. I didn't even think about the laptop use case.
One other random question, what was the thought process behind making the left panel control key the same size as the space bar?
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Thu, 26 February 2015, 09:38:20
Wish I could update the firmware on mine.
So is there no way to update the firmware on keyboards from the first production run? Nothing we can do to flash a different image?
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 26 February 2015, 10:00:00
[...] the undo/cut/copy/paste keys appear to send (on a mac) command_l down, c (for copy key), command_l up all at the same time. So it appears that physically releasing the key sends no scan codes. This means that I can't remap them in Karabiner. [...]I believe the USB HID spec actually has scan codes for “cut”, “copy”, “paste”, and maybe “undo”, etc.
Does anyone know what effect these have, if any, on various operating systems (OS X, windows, linux)? I’m currently traveling so I don’t have a keyboard with modifiable firmware handy to test out right now.
Post by: sbyrne on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:30:21
Post by: Matias on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:44:49
Wish I could update the firmware on mine.
So is there no way to update the firmware on keyboards from the first production run? Nothing we can do to flash a different image?
No, it's not quite that simple.
For anyone who is not happy with the position of the Num Lock, please email help@matias.ca and we'll arrange an exchange for a 2nd production run model, with a right Ctrl key.
If you're potentially reviewing the firmware, one other tweak that would be great: the undo/cut/copy/paste keys appear to send (on a mac) command_l down, c (for copy key), command_l up all at the same time. So it appears that physically releasing the key sends no scan codes. This means that I can't remap them in Karabiner. Whereas if the key send command_l down, c then on key release send the command_l, c up I could remap them with looking for simultaneous keypress scan codes and then for example use them as layer keys. It would be great to see that modification.
Okay, I'll check. I'm not sure how much this would complicate the current code base, but I'll find out.
re: left angle cables
I'm so pleased there was a reason for this decision, I knew there must be as everything on the board is so well thought out. I didn't even think about the laptop use case.
Yes, quite a lot of people using laptops these days. An ergonomic keyboard + laptop stand fixes most of the health problems associated with using them.
One other random question, what was the thought process behind making the left panel control key the same size as the space bar?
We wanted PC users to have a bigger target for doing keyboard shortcuts...
With a Ctrl key that big and convex in shape, you can just sort-of make a fist and use the knuckles of your fingers to hold down Ctrl. This is more comfortable and quicker than using your little finger to hold down Ctrl -- because your hand can stay in home postion and there's no unnatural stretching required.
I believe the USB HID spec actually has scan codes for cut, copy, paste, and maybe undo, etc.
Does anyone know what effect these have, if any, on various operating systems (OS X, windows, linux)? I'm currently traveling so I don't have a keyboard with modifiable firmware handy to test out right now.
Yes, there are HID usage codes for those...
0x7A Keyboard Undo
0x7B Keyboard Cut
0x7C Keyboard Copy
0x7D Keyboard Paste
It's been a while since I last looked into this, but last I checked Mac OS ignores those codes and I believe Windows does also. Not sure about Linux.
In fact, Windows STILL doesn't recognize the code for the Equals key on the number pad. I told them about this back when they were doing Longhorn -- this from the company that's supposed to prioritize business users. Boggles the mind.
Post by: mashby on Fri, 27 February 2015, 08:28:18
Congrats on the very positive review as well -- this is going to give you a lot of great exposure. Nicely done! (http://www.marco.org/2015/02/26/matis-ergo-pro-review)
Post by: Gerk on Fri, 27 February 2015, 08:40:27
Great job Matias, it was worth the wait. I'll probably pony up for another one from the next run :)
Post by: h1ro on Fri, 27 February 2015, 16:34:55
Quote
For anyone who is not happy with the position of the Num Lock, please email help@matias.ca and we'll arrange an exchange for a 2nd production run model, with a right Ctrl key.
So great to see you going above and beyond to make customers happy
Quote
Okay, I'll check. I'm not sure how much this would complicate the current code base, but I'll find out.
Excellent!
Quote
With a Ctrl key that big and convex in shape, you can just sort-of make a fist and use the knuckles of your fingers to hold down Ctrl. This is more comfortable and quicker than using your little finger to hold down Ctrl -- because your hand can stay in home postion and there's no unnatural stretching required.
I love hearing the thinking behind such decisions!
Thanks!
Post by: Matias on Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:22:00
Nice write up on Marco.org on the The Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard[url]. Good photos too.
Congrats on the very positive review as well -- this is going to give you a lot of great exposure. Nicely done!
(http://www.marco.org/2015/02/26/matis-ergo-pro-review)
Thanks! We're pretty happy for the exposure and his final conclusion -- declaring it the best overall keyboard.
Obviously, as a long-time Microsoft ergo user, he's more accustomed to fixed-split keyboards with shorter separation distances/angles. In time, he might find that increased separation/angle (that the Ergo Pro allows) is more comfortable, but you can't experience that on a fixed-split keyboard, so you may never know.
Calling the Kinesis "frustratingly flimsy" was maybe a little harsh. I think the Kinesis is pretty good for the price -- giving you separation for under $100. Sure, the price goes up quick as you start adding accessories -- which I know some customers see as a money grab -- but the basic unit is pretty cheap for the adjustability it offers.
Ultimately, you get what you pay for. I think the Ergo Pro is a good value at $200.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:30:21
Been playing with my Ergo Pro for the last 24 hours or so and have to say that so far I'm very happy with it. A couple of small things I wish were different, but for the most part it's by far the nicest split/tented keyboard I've tried to date. I do find in particular the placement of the esc key to be a bit odd ... I would much rather have it in a standard position above the tilde key ... and for the 6 being on the right side of the split, which I thought would be a big issue for me, is not so bad. In one day I'm getting very used to it being there so I think I'll be able to get over that one.
Great job Matias, it was worth the wait. I'll probably pony up for another one from the next run :)
That's great to hear -- very glad you're happy with it! :)
The position & size of the Esc key (and the dead space between Caps Lock and A) are to accommodate the change in relative key positions that happens with greater separation distances / angles. As your opening angle increases, you'll find that the old positions are awkward to reach. This is also why the Tab and Tilde keys are wider -- we did a lot of user testing on this.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 27 February 2015, 18:38:12
QuoteFor anyone who is not happy with the position of the Num Lock, please email help@matias.ca and we'll arrange an exchange for a 2nd production run model, with a right Ctrl key.
So great to see you going above and beyond to make customers happy
Well, it was pretty clear that this was going to be an issue for a lot of people -- so, better to fix it now, than to have it weigh down the good-ness of the product.
QuoteWith a Ctrl key that big and convex in shape, you can just sort-of make a fist and use the knuckles of your fingers to hold down Ctrl. This is more comfortable and quicker than using your little finger to hold down Ctrl -- because your hand can stay in home postion and there's no unnatural stretching required.
I love hearing the thinking behind such decisions!
Hopefully that usage method catches on. It works really well.
Post by: sbyrne on Fri, 27 February 2015, 19:40:21
The only other thing I could possibly want is an integrated mouse: trackpoint to the left of the H, mouse buttons under the space bars, and a scroll wheel to the right of the G. That would be heaven.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 27 February 2015, 22:46:30
I like the numlock next to the N. It makes switching to numpad mode really easy.
I think that is the problem. It is easy to hit by accident too. With a control there, if you hit by accident nothing bad will happen, but with the NumLock you will enter an different mode. A second control makes more sense; without it you cannot do ctrl-a, ctrl-q, or ctrl-w properly (doing it one handed puts a big strain on your left hand).
Post by: marcgravell on Sat, 28 February 2015, 03:50:58
I'll probably OS-remap caps-lock to r-ctrl for VM purposes, but that still doesn't help with mouse work :(
Post by: sbyrne on Sat, 28 February 2015, 06:53:43
Post by: dante on Sun, 01 March 2015, 10:07:33
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Do you think it's possible we'll see the 60% on MD before the end of the year?
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 01 March 2015, 13:24:03
Does anyone know of any keylockers that would fit Matias switches?
Post by: Matias on Sun, 01 March 2015, 14:30:38
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Do you think it's possible we'll see the 60% on MD before the end of the year?
Yes, quite possible. We're going to start work on it soon.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:02:48
Incidentally, our upcoming 60% keyboard has the same shape for its 1.5x4.5 Spacebar.
Let me know if you have any other questions...
Do you think it's possible we'll see the 60% on MD before the end of the year?
Yes, quite possible. We're going to start work on it soon.
There are way too many 60% keyboards, please make it 65% ... With dedicated pg up, pg down, 2 alts, 2 controls, and arrow keys. The Leopold fc660 is in that small but sweet spot category, we need more like this!
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:26:00
There are way too many 60% keyboards, please make it 65% ... With dedicated pg up, pg down, and arrow keys. The Leopold fc660 is in that small but sweet spot category, we need more like this!Your post here is off-topic, even with respect to the already off topic post you’re responding to.
The thread you wanted to give feedback on is here – https://geekhack.org/?topic=60268.msg1388994 – but you’re many months late. The design is already settled (see http://matias.ca/60/pc/ for details). If you want a different 65% keyboard you should petition for it in a new thread or something.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:33:46
Post by: Matias on Mon, 02 March 2015, 00:10:24
I'm not keen on the number lock position, but I can't see myself getting used to the key being Ctrl.
I'm sure some will not like Ctrl either, but at least with a code assigned to it, you can remap it to something else using AHK (or similar software).
I believe the USB HID spec actually has scan codes for cut, copy, paste, and maybe undo, etc.
Does anyone know what effect these have, if any, on various operating systems (OS X, windows, linux)? I'm currently traveling so I don't have a keyboard with modifiable firmware handy to test out right now.
Yes, there are HID usage codes for those...
0x7A Keyboard Undo
0x7B Keyboard Cut
0x7C Keyboard Copy
0x7D Keyboard Paste
It's been a while since I last looked into this, but last I checked Mac OS ignores those codes and I believe Windows does also. Not sure about Linux.
Okay, I've confirmed that neither Windows nor OS X have native support for these HID codes. Really a shame. Apparently, Linux DOES support them.
However, I forgot that Fn+Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste generate the codes for F16-F19, so you can capture those and reassign them with macro software or AHK.
Post by: argcargv on Tue, 03 March 2015, 16:21:58
would a future firmware update include a OSX keycode for it?
I really want to remap it to the letter B...
Post by: Matias on Tue, 03 March 2015, 17:40:43
Anyone found a way to remap numlock yet?
would a future firmware update include a OSX keycode for it?
I really want to remap it to the letter B...
No way to remap it.
In the next production run, it will be Ctrl -- which you can remap in software.
Anyone with the first run model can exchange it, but you need to contact help@matias.ca soon to arrange that.
Post by: stphnlwlsh on Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:28:20
In the next production run, it will be Ctrl -- which you can remap in software.
If it's going to be a Ctrl key, will the numlock be elsewhere for use if desired?
As well, I'm new to the mechanical keyboard world and a previous comment made mention of the dedicated Cut, Copy, Paste keys not working. I have a Mac version and have tried these keys on both the Mac and my Windows machine but with no luck as to them working. How can I resolve?
Post by: h1ro on Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:30:10
Post by: stphnlwlsh on Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:41:58
Post by: argcargv on Thu, 05 March 2015, 15:35:25
Anyone found a way to remap numlock yet?
would a future firmware update include a OSX keycode for it?
I really want to remap it to the letter B...
No way to remap it.
In the next production run, it will be Ctrl -- which you can remap in software.
Anyone with the first run model can exchange it, but you need to contact help@matias.ca soon to arrange that.
Thanks! I think I am very very likely to order a second one!
Will there be an option for blank keycaps in the future.
Or a different kind of switch? like the clicky switch?
Post by: kshopper on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:28:04
I just received my Ergo Pro on Tuesday. I am thrilled with the build-quality! This thing feels very much like it will outlive me.
I have been spending some time trying different positions / configurations, negative tile, tented, further apart with more angle, closer together, etc. In some ways it provides too much flexibility, hard to know when you've got it setup optimally (first world problems, I know).
I like the tactile nature of the key switches, but must admit to missing the satisfying / extremely loud clicks of my previous keyboard with blue Cherry switches. The Matias Quiet switches are far more suitable for most work environments, but I start to wonder what an Ergo Pro with the none-quiet ALPS switches might be like. >:D
The only issue I've had so far is that is that this morning while I was typing my Macbook Pro stopped registering keystrokes in the "e" and "d" rows. The rest of the keyboard continued to work fine. I tried unplugging the headphone cable connecting the two halves and reconnecting it, no change. I then unplugged the USB cable from the keyboard for a few seconds, reconnected, and it started working fine again. I am a little concerned by this, hoping that it doesn't become an ongoing issue. Any thoughts Matias?
BTW, thanks for making this keyboard, it really fills a void in the marketplace and does it in an amazing fashion!
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:32:54
I have been spending some time trying different positions / configurations, negative tile, tented, further apart with more angle, closer together, etc. In some ways it provides too much flexibility, hard to know when you've got it setup optimally (first world problems, I know).Ideal is to build your own wooden stand with a 30°+ tent angle. ;)
Post by: argcargv on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:33:28
Make sure everything is plugged in tight especially the head phone cable.
Post by: sbyrne on Thu, 05 March 2015, 18:10:51
As far as the numlock/ctrl issue, I kept accidentally triggering numlock when typing "\n". So I pulled the cap off of the numlock key. Now I never hit it accidentally, can still easily trigger it on purpose, and I can see the light!
Post by: wanderfowl on Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:15:04
I've also had the "left side keys stop working" issue. Just unplugging the USB and replugging fixed it.
Post by: Gerk on Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:58:18
One thing that is really bugging me though ... is that the eject symbol on the E key is crooked. At first I thought this was just an optical illusion, but on closer inspection it really is a little crooked. Again not a deal breaker but I thought I would bring it up to see if it's just my board that it's off with or if it's on everyone's ... and if it's on everyone's hopefully it's something that Matias can deal with before the second run of the boards. Not a deal breaker but the OCD bits in me find it really, really annoying ... and for some reason my brain keeps thinking that it's a bit of fluff or something on the keyboard. I've tried dusting it off many times now LOL. It seems like it's at about a 2-3 degree CCW rotation or something ... is it just me? Also having it tented seems to really add to the twisted illusion of it ... and apologies for the bad phone pics.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2452264/forumPics/Matias-e-key-1.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2452264/forumPics/Matias-e-key-2.jpg)
Post by: Gerk on Thu, 05 March 2015, 20:01:32
I just got mine. Love the keyfeel! It's got a few fit-and-finish issues (the feet aren't even, leaving the right side to rock around when typing, and the o and i keys arrived swapped), but aside from that, pretty nice.
I've also had the "left side keys stop working" issue. Just unplugging the USB and replugging fixed it.
I had thought the same thing about the feet once, but it turned out I just didn't have the feet fully extended. Try folding up and re-openening the feet and you might be surprised.
Post by: wanderfowl on Thu, 05 March 2015, 20:19:53
Post by: Matias on Thu, 05 March 2015, 21:14:59
No, this is without any feet extended. Just flat on the desk, without the wrist rests, it rocked about a good bit. I'm using the wrist rests now. Just trying to figure out the best way to use it with my Rollermouse.
You can straighten it by holding it with both hands, and giving it a little twist in the opposite direction. That's how they straighten them at the factory.
One thing that is really bugging me though ... is that the eject symbol on the E key is crooked. At first I thought this was just an optical illusion, but on closer inspection it really is a little crooked. Again not a deal breaker but I thought I would bring it up to see if it's just my board that it's off with or if it's on everyone's ... and if it's on everyone's hopefully it's something that Matias can deal with before the second run of the boards. Not a deal breaker but the OCD bits in me find it really, really annoying ... and for some reason my brain keeps thinking that it's a bit of fluff or something on the keyboard. I've tried dusting it off many times now LOL. It seems like it's at about a 2-3 degree CCW rotation or something ... is it just me? Also having it tented seems to really add to the twisted illusion of it ... and apologies for the bad phone pics.Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2452264/forumPics/Matias-e-key-1.jpg)Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2452264/forumPics/Matias-e-key-2.jpg)
Difficult to tell from the pictures. It might be an optical illusion due to the shape of the Eject symbol -- or it might not. If you like, we can send you a keycap with just the letter E for a legend. That would eliminate the temptation to check it. :-)
My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to?
Yes, you're probably just really used to the rubber domes on the Kinesis -- which don't actuate until you bottom out (which is "wrong"). Mechanical switches actuate higher.
I just received my Ergo Pro on Tuesday. I am thrilled with the build-quality! This thing feels very much like it will outlive me.
:-)
The only issue I've had so far is that is that this morning while I was typing my Macbook Pro stopped registering keystrokes in the "e" and "d" rows. The rest of the keyboard continued to work fine. I tried unplugging the headphone cable connecting the two halves and reconnecting it, no change. I then unplugged the USB cable from the keyboard for a few seconds, reconnected, and it started working fine again. I am a little concerned by this, hoping that it doesn't become an ongoing issue. Any thoughts Matias?
See if it happens again. Obviously, it shouldn't do that. If it happens on an ongoing basis, then you should send it back for a replacement.
I should add that in most cases, where the left side has some random operational quirk, it's been due to the connecting cable not being plugged in all the way, or a defective connecting cable -- we've had one of those so far.
If you're getting the same set of keys/rows having a problem all the time, that's usually a defective PCB.
BTW, thanks for making this keyboard, it really fills a void in the marketplace and does it in an amazing fashion!
You're welcome!
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 05 March 2015, 21:30:42
My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to?
Yes, you're probably just really used to the rubber domes on the Kinesis -- which don't actuate until you bottom out (which is "wrong"). Mechanical switches actuate higher.
It sound’s like he’s complaining that he gets past the tactile point in pressing a key while typing but the switch sometimes doesn’t actuate.
sbyrne: I’ve never had this issue with Matias switches. Is it just a particular switch that gives you trouble, or does it happen across the board? Is this while you’re typing, or just if you carefully press a switch just past the click and then let go? (If you’re trying hard I think you can avoid actuating the switches, but in regular typing it’s not supposed to be an issue if everything’s working properly. I get the opposite problem with Hi-Tek “space invader” switches, Omron B3G-S switches, and NEC switches, where the actuation point is slightly *before* the tactile point, sometimes resulting in accidental keypresses or double-presses where only one was intended.)
Post by: kod on Fri, 06 March 2015, 09:16:05
tenting isnt really usable on a keyboard tray, the overall depth between the feet is too large.
num lock is in a horrible, horrible place. accidentally bumping it is very easy given its position. A non-modal key like control would be much better.
capslock doesnt seem to send a standard keycode. I had capslock remapped to control, now it doesn't work.
jury's still out but so far I'm mildly annoyed.
Post by: argcargv on Fri, 06 March 2015, 11:48:57
So my initial impressions after an hour
tenting isnt really usable on a keyboard tray, the overall depth between the feet is too large.
num lock is in a horrible, horrible place. accidentally bumping it is very easy given its position. A non-modal key like control would be much better.
capslock doesnt seem to send a standard keycode. I had capslock remapped to control, now it doesn't work.
jury's still out but so far I'm mildly annoyed.
I was able to remap capslock.
Capslock to control remap is provided by the dip switches on the keyboard. go to page 9 or 10 of this thread there is a picture.
Post by: kod on Fri, 06 March 2015, 13:16:13
Lack of right hand command key is killing my muscle memory. I'm not sure I like the switches compared to browns. The drastic change in tactile force / noise if a key is pressed slightly off center is weird to get used to. In general I feel like the jury's still out.
Post by: argcargv on Fri, 06 March 2015, 13:22:48
Post by: kod on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:09:18
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buy
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:15:45
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buyThat’s not just a different keycap, but takes a totally different plate and PCB as well. I don’t think it’s worth adding an extra SKU for.
Considering they already need an altered design for ISO layout, and maybe another one for Japanese, that would mean going from 2 to 4 or 3 to 6 different plate/PCB designs.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:56:48
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buyThat's not just a different keycap, but takes a totally different plate and PCB as well. I don't think it's worth adding an extra SKU for.
Considering they already need an altered design for ISO layout, and maybe another one for Japanese, that would mean going from 2 to 4 or 3 to 6 different plate/PCB designs.
Yes, sorry but that's not in the cards... :-)
Remember, we're designing for a broad niche of people, while offering a degree of customizability via DIP switch settings.
We're also trying to minimize the number of modifier key combinations needed for commonly used functions -- which means dedicated keys for navigation / editing, and positioned so that they're easy to reach. They're there for those who need them, but you don't have to use these keys -- though you'll benefit if you do.
We've tried to accommodate peoples' preferences as much as possible, but in some cases it's not possible, and in many of those cases those preferences are not that ergonomic.
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:58:37
Lack of right hand command key is killing my muscle memory.
The Mac version has a Command key on the right (and on the left).
If you have the PC version, you can set it to the Mac layout via the DIP switches.
Post by: argcargv on Fri, 06 March 2015, 17:00:55
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buyThat's not just a different keycap, but takes a totally different plate and PCB as well. I don't think it's worth adding an extra SKU for.
Considering they already need an altered design for ISO layout, and maybe another one for Japanese, that would mean going from 2 to 4 or 3 to 6 different plate/PCB designs.
Yes, sorry but that's not in the cards... :-)
Remember, we're designing for a broad niche of people, while offering a degree of customizability via DIP switch settings.
We're also trying to minimize the number of modifier key combinations needed for commonly used functions -- which means dedicated keys for navigation / editing, and positioned so that they're easy to reach. They're there for those who need them, but you don't have to use these keys -- though you'll benefit if you do.
We've tried to accommodate peoples' preferences as much as possible, but in some cases it's not possible, and in many of those cases those preferences are not that ergonomic.
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.
Keyboard designing is hard.
Post by: sbyrne on Fri, 06 March 2015, 18:28:56
My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to?Yes, you're probably just really used to the rubber domes on the Kinesis -- which don't actuate until you bottom out (which is "wrong"). Mechanical switches actuate higher.
It sound’s like he’s complaining that he gets past the tactile point in pressing a key while typing but the switch sometimes doesn’t actuate.
sbyrne: I’ve never had this issue with Matias switches. Is it just a particular switch that gives you trouble, or does it happen across the board? Is this while you’re typing, or just if you carefully press a switch just past the click and then let go? (If you’re trying hard I think you can avoid actuating the switches, but in regular typing it’s not supposed to be an issue if everything’s working properly. I get the opposite problem with Hi-Tek “space invader” switches, Omron B3G-S switches, and NEC switches, where the actuation point is slightly *before* the tactile point, sometimes resulting in accidental keypresses or double-presses where only one was intended.)
I can do it with any key if I try, but it only happens in general use with the index and middle fingers on my right (dominant) hand, which are by far my strongest and most coordinated fingers (lots of bike brake modulation practice). Hopefully I will develop the muscle memory to get it right.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 07 March 2015, 01:13:20
Remember, we're designing for a broad niche of people, while offering a degree of customizability via DIP switch settings.
We're also trying to minimize the number of modifier key combinations needed for commonly used functions -- which means dedicated keys for navigation / editing, and positioned so that they're easy to reach. They're there for those who need them, but you don't have to use these keys -- though you'll benefit if you do.
We've tried to accommodate peoples' preferences as much as possible, but in some cases it's not possible, and in many of those cases those preferences are not that ergonomic.
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.
Keyboard designing is hard.
Yes, it is.
Post by: bcredbottle on Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:45:03
Post by: Matias on Sat, 07 March 2015, 15:24:02
Serious, non-troll question. Are all of these changes going to affect the ship date on the second production run?
I don't think so. The firmware change is already done. We just need to modify the PCB to move the LED position.
Post by: stphnlwlsh on Sat, 07 March 2015, 15:37:23
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.
What happens to num lock when the Ctrl key goes in its place?
Post by: Matias on Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:02:46
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.
What happens to num lock when the Ctrl key goes in its place?
Fn+6 invokes the embedded number pad.
Post by: Gerk on Sun, 08 March 2015, 14:02:42
Hopefully this can get resolved.
Post by: stphnlwlsh on Mon, 09 March 2015, 11:15:55
I just had the dreaded left hand side of the keyboard stopped working happen a few minutes ago. Unplugging just the TRS cable from the left side and re-plugging didn't resolve the issue. Unplugging the USB cable and re-plugging got it sorted out. It was still sending some sort of keycodes for the left side keys (I heard noises indicating that it didn't like whatever I was trying to type) -- just not sure what it was sending.
Hopefully this can get resolved.
I was having the same issue and purchased a new TRRS cable from Amazon. Haven't had the issue since.
Post by: Gerk on Mon, 09 March 2015, 11:17:12
Post by: kshopper on Mon, 09 March 2015, 15:01:47
I also noticed after the fact that when Num Lock is engaged the exact same keys no longer register from the left side. So, this is starting to feel like it's related to Num Lock mode or support in some way. I am pretty sure I have tried turning Num Lock on and off when it happened to me the first time and it didn't have an impact, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I accidentally engaged Num Lock and that was the whole problem all along. I'd like to keep using the keyboard to find out when it happens again, but I need to ship it back to Matias if I want to swap it out for the Rt-Ctrl version.
Can anyone confirm that it's not just an accidentally entering of Num Lock mode causing this?
Matias, hopefully this information may prove useful in further analysis of this issue. It's strange because the rest of the keys on the left side keep working just fine when it happens. If it was a cable issue, you'd think it would be completely none-functional.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 09 March 2015, 15:37:39
We've already advised the cable vendor, and they've promised to improve.
Needless to say, if you continue to have the problem (and are keeping the keyboard), please contact help@matias.ca to get a replacement cable. We'll order spares along with the next production run.
Post by: kshopper on Mon, 09 March 2015, 16:17:03
Post by: Matias on Mon, 09 March 2015, 16:36:21
Matias, is the issue of the left0side keys not working (Q, W, E, R, T, A, S, D, F) when Num Lock is activated expected?
Yes, Num Lock is a separate mode. When Num Lock is engaged, only the number pad keys (and the modifiers) will work.
Post by: CyBerlin on Mon, 09 March 2015, 22:45:29
Based only on Internet photos and on PDF files showing the current layout of keys, I have the following feedback. I'm sure that if you ask 50 people for feedback on *anything*, you're likely to get 50 different answers. My intention is just to provide some ad-hoc feedback, and get a few questions answered.
By way of background, I'm a programmer, and my keyboard of choice for many, many years has been the Microsoft Bluetooth 5000/6000 series. The action is, well, underwhelming, but the form factor and the key placement are just about ideal on this keyboard. So I come to the table with an MSFT bias.
1. I really like the placement of *most* of the navigation keys on the Ergo Pro. But those 2 empty spaces on either side of the up arrow are begging to be filled with the Home and End keys, respectively. I'd like to see Home take up the left space, and End take up the right space. These seem like natural locations, too: Home moves to the beginning (or left) of the current line, End moves to the end (or right) of the current line. The pg up / pg down keys would maintain their current position. This cluster would keep all major navigation keys centered around the arrow keys and within easy reach.
2. By moving Home and End, you've now freed up space for re-introducing the Right+Ctrl key. Then you can ditch the non-standard placement for Right+Ctrl next to "N".
3. I'd like to see all 12 function keys in columns (not staggered) directly above the numeric key with the same number. F1 would be directly above 1, F2 would be directly above 2, and so on. This is how Microsoft does it with the Bluetooth 5000/6000, and it works great. The current staggering on the Ergo Pro seems slightly contrived by comparison. Even on the Mini Quiet Pro, I'm constantly missing the function key I want by pressing too far to the left or right. Touch typists have muscle memory to find numbers like 1, 2, 3, etc. Why not leverage this muscle memory by placing the corresponding key directly above its numeric namesake? Doing this would also help to balance out the 2 halves of the keyboard by moving F5 from the right to the left half.
4. If the function keys were in columns as spelled out above, this would provide more room for making the Delete key a little bigger (which I think it should be).
5. I understand the need to add Cut, Copy, Paste, Undo to the left half to balance out the two halves, but if this was the primary goal, I'd suggest the following: expose Cut, Copy, and Paste in a cluster and above that have another dedicated cluster for Undo and Redo. To me, a dedicated Undo without a corresponding Redo doesn't make much sense. You could use the space currently occupied by the overly large Escape key, and turn Esc back into a normal-sized key (or slightly elongated key) directly above the tilde.
Anway, I can't wait to take shipment from the 2nd production run, and I'm counting down the days!
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 09 March 2015, 23:32:54
1. I really like the placement of *most* of the navigation keys on the Ergo Pro. But those 2 empty spaces on either side of the up arrow are begging to be filled with the Home and End keys, respectively. I'd like to see Home take up the left space, and End take up the right space. These seem like natural locations, too: Home moves to the beginning (or left) of the current line, End moves to the end (or right) of the current line. The pg up / pg down keys would maintain their current position. This cluster would keep all major navigation keys centered around the arrow keys and within easy reach.You should try this out before judging too quickly. I personally don’t really like discrete arrow keys and would rather have navigation on a layer, but if there are going to be navigation keys, the layout on Apple laptops is pretty darn effective. (Except stupid Apple is breaking things the keyboard on the new 12" Macbook, grrr.)
Basically, those little gaps make it very easy for fingers to find the arrow keys without needing to look. The ability to feel out the shape of the arrow section without looking is worth much more IMO than an extra two keys down there.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 10 March 2015, 00:42:23
By way of background, I'm a programmer, and my keyboard of choice for many, many years has been the Microsoft Bluetooth 5000/6000 series. The action is, well, underwhelming, but the form factor and the key placement are just about ideal on this keyboard. So I come to the table with an MSFT bias.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts...
After seeing several reviews of the Ergo Pro, I've come to understand that people usually like what they're accustomed to, and often just want that + better switches.
Everyone has biases and it's really interesting to see how they inform their views on ideal keyboard designs.
In fact, your feedback reminded me a lot of the Marco Arment review (http://www.marco.org/2015/02/26/matis-ergo-pro-review). As a Mac user, he mostly just wanted an ergonomic version of Apple's laptop keyboard. :)
If you'd like me to address each of your points, I'd be happy to -- but the bottom line is that the Ergo Pro is our best effort at trying to satisfy everyone's biases, as much as possible, in as ergonomic a way as possible.
Post by: CyBerlin on Tue, 10 March 2015, 00:59:27
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts...
After seeing several reviews of the Ergo Pro, I've come to understand that people usually like what they're accustomed to, and often just want that + better switches.
Everyone has biases and it's really interesting to see how they inform their views on ideal keyboard designs.
In fact, your feedback reminded me a lot of the Marco Arment review (http://www.marco.org/2015/02/26/matis-ergo-pro-review). As a Mac user, he mostly just wanted an ergonomic version of Apple's laptop keyboard. :)
If you'd like me to address each of your points, I'd be happy to -- but the bottom line is that the Ergo Pro is our best effort at trying to satisfy everyone's biases, as much as possible, in as ergonomic a way as possible.
My opinion on the navigation keys and the extra keys along the left are minor quibbles at best. I've done without usable Home and End keys on my numerous MSFT Bluetooth 5000/6000 keyboards for so long that I've almost forgotten how useful these keys are for programmers. I was just hoping to give them a bit more prominence, and those empty spaces are just beckoning! But there's no need for you to elaborate on your thought process WRT to these keys.
However, I would be interested in hearing your criteria for the placement of the 12 function keys. Why did you decide to stagger the function keys, and why is the stagger so severe? I think there's a lot to be said about the benefits of muscle memory for function keys when they are placed in vertical columns directly above their corresponding numerical key. I use F2, F5, F7 and F8 *constantly* and on my Mini Quiet Pro I still have not bonded with the staggered placement.
Another related question: presumably, at some point I expect you'll be offering replacement wrist pads for the Ergo Pro, correct? I don't see anything on the site (yet) but I have seen picture of different gel pads in a variety of colors. Is it safe to assume that by the time I wear mine out, I'll be able to get a new set off your site?
Post by: Matias on Tue, 10 March 2015, 01:23:05
However, I would be interested in hearing your criteria for the placement of the 12 function keys. Why did you decide to stagger the function keys, and why is the stagger so severe? I think there's a lot to be said about the benefits of muscle memory for function keys when they are placed in vertical columns directly above their corresponding numerical key. I use F2, F5, F7 and F8 *constantly* and on my Mini Quiet Pro I still have not bonded with the staggered placement.
I can certainly see the logic in what you're saying. However, most desktop keyboards group the function keys into sets of 4, so we followed that convention.
Another related question: presumably, at some point I expect you'll be offering replacement wrist pads for the Ergo Pro, correct? I don't see anything on the site (yet) but I have seen picture of different gel pads in a variety of colors. Is it safe to assume that by the time I wear mine out, I'll be able to get a new set off your site?
Well, nothing lasts forever, but I've used a gel palm support for years and have yet to wear it out. We're offering the replacements mostly so that users can customize their keyboards to match their tastes, or their room colour.
Post by: rsadek on Tue, 10 March 2015, 09:18:36
I am super excited to receive my Ergo Pro and see for myself. Please feel free to send me Marco's review unit now that he's done with it :)
-R
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 10 March 2015, 10:06:24
I follow Marco's blog enthusiastically. However his review of the Ergo Pro was not at the level of thoughtfulness, detail, or expertise I'd come to expect from him. It was disapointing.Yeah, but note, Marco’s not really a keyboard guy, by geekhack standards.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 10 March 2015, 22:48:00
I follow Marco's blog enthusiastically. However his review of the Ergo Pro was not at the level of thoughtfulness, detail, or expertise I'd come to expect from him. It was disapointing.Yeah, but note, Marco's not really a keyboard guy, by geekhack standards.
I've been racking my brain trying to remember what this is called...
There's a theory/observation that all reported news has subtle mistakes that go unnoticed to all, except those who are experts on the subject being reported on. You are blissfully unware of this, until it happens to you, at which point to start to wonder if all news is wrong. After a while, you forget and go back to being blissfully unaware again.
Really wish I could remember what that's called...
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 10 March 2015, 23:48:11
I've been racking my brain trying to remember what this is called... There's a theory/observation that all reported news has subtle mistakes that go unnoticed to all, except those who are experts on the subject being reported on. You are blissfully unware of this, until it happens to you, at which point to start to wonder if all news is wrong. After a while, you forget and go back to being blissfully unaware again.I think they call that the “oh look, The Economist got their story totally wrong again” effect. (Seriously, pick any Economist story, and go find an expert in the subject or region of the world and they’ll say something like, “well, their other reporting usually seems plausible enough but this particular piece is egregiously wrong about everything.”)
Post by: bcredbottle on Wed, 11 March 2015, 07:58:13
Post by: Luminair on Fri, 13 March 2015, 15:44:25
5. I understand the need to add Cut, Copy, Paste, Undo to the left half to balance out the two halves, but if this was the primary goal, I'd suggest the following: expose Cut, Copy, and Paste in a cluster and above that have another dedicated cluster for Undo and Redo. To me, a dedicated Undo without a corresponding Redo doesn't make much sense. You could use the space currently occupied by the overly large Escape key, and turn Esc back into a normal-sized key (or slightly elongated key) directly above the tilde.
I used to think these side keys were useless. My opinion has now evolved after reading this.
Cut/Copy/Paste/Undo are all easily accessed with the normal ctrl+ shortcuts. REDO is not. If I ever want to flip back and forth, undoing/redoing, it's a hassle. So I can now see a reason for these side keys: Providing a block with Undo and Redo.
I still predict that these keys will be unusuable when mashed together in one block. There is poor muscle memory learning this new layout, and it seems error-prone.
So I think the design would be better with Undo+Redo next to each other, then a space, then Cut+Copy, then another space, then Paste. You will pay for this extra space by making the Escape key a normal size, because it does NOT need to be huge. It is not frequently used, plus it is easy to find, so a smaller key is fine.
Illustration:
Quote
Esc
Undo
Redo
Copy
Cut
Paste
Fn
After thinking this through, this is the first time I've thought I might actually USE this kind of shortcut block on a custom keyboard. But the spaces are required, and the undo+redo is required, to get me on board.
Post by: rsadek on Fri, 13 March 2015, 18:53:08
It's a bad habit I have been unable to break. The contrition exacerbates the RSI-induced pain and inflammation in my radial tendon (by the thumb. flexor carpi radialis to be specific). I imagine several readers may have the same RSI.
For me, a few new keys to reduce this repetition will be a welcome relief. I'm willing to spend the effort to build muscle memory. Which is one of many reasons I can't wait to get my ergo pro :)
Post by: crazystu on Fri, 13 March 2015, 23:49:07
I'm rather excited about the undo/copy/paste keys. I do these operations many times daily; using the command key, left-handed, contorting my thumb underneath the rest of my hand. I'm sure many people do the same.One really nice thing about the Ergo Pro is the location of the Command key (below X/C), means you need to contort your thumb significantly less.
Similar deal with Ctrl, you stretch your pinky considerably less compared to a standard bottom row.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 14 March 2015, 16:39:34
I'm rather excited about the undo/copy/paste keys. I do these operations many times daily; using the command key, left-handed, contorting my thumb underneath the rest of my hand. I'm sure many people do the same.
One really nice thing about the Ergo Pro is the location of the Command key (below X/C), means you need to contort your thumb significantly less.
Similar deal with Ctrl, you stretch your pinky considerably less compared to a standard bottom row.
Yes, that is the current popular way for triggering Command key shortcuts, and we've tried to make it as comfortable as possible with nice big Command keys, positioned where you expect them.
Interesting historical sidenote... If you look at much older Mac keyboards, the left Command key is wider (1.75u) and further to the left. That made it easier to do Copy/Paste -- rest two smallest fingers on Command and Middle/Index fingers naturally land on C/V for Copy/Paste -- but awkward for other shortcuts.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 14 March 2015, 19:09:31
One really nice thing about the Ergo Pro is the location of the Command key (below X/C), means you need to contort your thumb significantly less. Similar deal with Ctrl, you stretch your pinky considerably less compared to a standard bottom row.There’s definitely a downside to staying so close to standard key positions though. For instance, I think the modifiers can be much more accessible still with layouts more like:
(http://i.imgur.com/hZQf1ow.png)
or
(http://i.imgur.com/agK3Fmr.png)
etc. (not to mention layouts with column stagger and a bunch of extra thumb keys)
On the Ergopro...
(http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/viewer/3.jpg)
... I still find option, control, right shift, return, backslash, backward delete, forward delete, backtick, escape, function, all the F keys, and much of the number row somewhat awkward/tricky to reach.
As you say though, it is an improvement over the standard IBM layout.
Post by: crazystu on Sat, 14 March 2015, 20:42:29
I think Matias did the best they could whilst keeping the layout close to standard ANSI.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 15 March 2015, 02:30:55
Quote
A few weeks ago I did a little unboxing and mini review (http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2witnw/review_matias_ergo_pro_unboxing_and_mini_review/) after my Matias Ergo Pro arrived I promised I would do a full review after about a week... well here it is 3 weeks later instead :P See the imgur gallery in the link above if you want more pics.
Some background, I’ve been using Microsoft Natural keyboard since I built my fist pc back in 97 (before that I was an Amiga man) and I’ve gone through a total of 3 of them in that time. All have failed due to drink spills (two of those where my fault). In addition to this I’ve had them at every work place since I graduated from uni, so to say I’m used to them is an understatement.
As such it isn’t surprising that most of my complaints with the MEP is where it deviates from the Microsoft Natural. Looking over some of my complaints they do seem petty, but I would still love Matias to make changes for the version 2.
I have wide shoulders so my arms come in when having to use a keyboard and when forced to type on a regular keyboard I end up making many typos, my wrists get sore and my typing speed is rather slow, for these reasons I hadn’t purchased a mechanical keyboard yet. I had been searching for split mechanicals with a standard layout for a long time, and ended up cancelling my Ergo Dox massdrop and preordered the MEP back in Nov after spilling red wine into my MSNK. I have had to use a standard Logitech keyboard since then and it was causing enough pain I was going to buy another MSNK to tide me over the same week the MEP arrived. Just a note I didn’t even get an email to say the keyboard was shipping soon and it came as a complete surprise.
The reason I didn’t stick with the Ergo Dox was I’m awful at building things, and would rather have a professional finish and proper wrist supports. I had also read good things about the Matias switches, but it does seem to be that while there isn’t a single switch everyone agrees is the best, people liked different switches for different reasons but “Quiet” was definitely high on my list.
Physical:
The keyboard itself is a split mechanical keyboard that uses the Matias Quiet Click switches based off ALPS white simplified that they ended up making themselves after the original manufacturer stopped making them. The Keyboard has three legs on each split side that can be set for tenting, flat or negative tilt. I personally have it tented.
The left and right sides are joined by a retractable 2.5 mm cable with 4 segments so it should be possible to get a replacement cable should that get damaged somehow. The retraction works as well as most of those do, ie you need to battle with it over a number of pulls to get it to be the length that you want. The keyboard connects to the pc via a long micro usb cable. They have also included a second shorter usb cable that is reversible! (To make it easier for laptop users) The odd thing is they have put a bend on the end that plugs into the keyboard but it seems to bend the wrong way personally, considering the keyboard is used split outwards, the cable is fed towards the centre. Great if you are plugged it into a laptop on the left hand side but beyond that a little odd.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/5hzm8Za.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/zAsbln2.jpg)
The right hand side has three USB 3 ports but the left most one (visible above) juts towards the left hand side split, so unless you are going to have a fair bit of space between them you probably aren’t going to use that one very much.
Build quality is quite nice, there aren’t any sharp edges the feet don’t slide with normal use and the padded wrist supports are fantastic, so much so that my padded mouse mat feels uncomfortable by comparison. The keys are laser cut so won’t rub off, the molding is nice and the spacing is just right.
Space wise it pretty much takes up as much room as the Logitech!
It is also fully plug and plug, which is a huge plus for anyone that has battled with Razor or Logitech software in the past.
It does seem to collect cat hair though.
Ok enough of that what is it like to use?
First of all the keyboard is a joy to type with. The “quiet” clicks are audible, but not too loud. I work from home as a programmer, supporting a voip network and my wife sits behind me. If they were any louder I imagine she would have throttled me by now.
The keys feel nice, you can easily feel the point at which they activate, but I find I’m still bottoming out most of the time, I suspect that is a result of having had used dome keyboards for so long. If I press the key slowly the switch is practically silent. Most of the noise actually comes from initially pressing the key and when you bottom out. I tested what some people mentioned and it is true that if you strike the very top of the key then it feels squishy but I don’t know how you could type like that normally without hitting the keys on the row above.
I literally didn’t want to stop typing the first day, even though I was running into a rather large issue….
The num lock key.
You see the N key on the Microsoft Natural is twice as wide as other keys, and having been used to that for so many years I ended up hitting both the n and the numlock key on the MEP. I’m slowly weening myself off of that, originally I would hit it every time, but now while typing up this whole review (keeping track) I have only hit the num pad once by accident. Had I written this after using it for only a week I would have guessed that number to be between 20 and 30.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/6z84JCE.jpg)
Since I imagine many MSNK users will be looking at this keyboard I would definitely move this key, as it is my single greatest and pretty much sole annoyance. Even removing the key completely and replacing it with a function combination would be better and the led could sit at the top above the function keys. The first week I was really considering removing the cap off the key so I wouldn’t hit it.
This is compounded by the fact that the num pad light is practically invisible. The keycap is opaque and the led is below it. There isn’t a cut out clear bit, or a light near by. I’ve been told by Matias that this is because single keys with a clear bit were not available at the time, but they should have cut a small hole above it instead then.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/E9lNCVg.jpg)
I do however really miss a proper keypad. Using the keypad over the other keys is rather awkward after so many years of muscle memory, and especially when programming not having / and * next to each other is a pain (block comments are surrounded by /* */).
When the number pad is on however most of the letter keys on the left hand side are disabled other than zxcv and t. T doesn’t actually type but it does put the number pad into navigation mode instead eg 8 is up, k is down etc. There isn’t any light to let you know and the key itself is not labelled.
There is a line in the manual that mentions that fnc T toggles between num lock and scrolling mode, however you don’t need to press fnc to enable this while the num lock is on. This makes it extra confusing and I was half wondering if my keyboard had broken till I played with it and worked it out. The scrolling mode persists between hitting num lock so it is extra confusing.
Yes the above is really only an issue the first couple of weeks but it is something than can be improved.
Other layout
As far as the rest of the key layout goes I was surprised that both the 6 key and F5 key are on right hand side instead of left as it is on the MSNK. It does make sense but that took a fair bit of getting used to and I still sometimes try to reach the number 6 with my left hand. The arrow keys took a little getting used to but are quite nice now. The navigation part with Home End etc I still need to look at to see which key is which and it is a little weird not having Del next to them.
The left CTRL key is comically large but it is comfortable to use both in the home position, and when your hand is over WASD which is nice. The Escape key is extra tall but can be reached without lifting your wrist.
I also never noticed how much I used to tap the edge of the keyboard to hit enter on the keypad (without lifting my hand off my mouse) before. I’ll definitely be looking to get a dedicated keypad in future.
I also missed the calculator key since I used that all the time, I ended up having to bind ctrl f12 to open calc.exe
The dedicated undo/cut/copy/paste buttons I haven’t ever used since it is quicker just to use the ctrl commands and you don't have to move your hand to do so. It would be better off having them as calc and maybe as programmable keys. Having the fnc volume overload on them would also be great so you can adjust the sound while gaming without taking your hand off the mouse.
Gaming
I didn’t realise how much I was used to bottoming out the keyboard during gaming. I was playing Diablo 3 and lifting shift slightly, but not enough to disengage on the MEP, but enough to do so on a dome. Took me a little while to come to grips with that and I suspect it may occasionally get me into trouble in the heat of battle. I did play a bit of Unreal Tournament and was still able to double tap dodge, etc and apart for Diablo I haven’t had any other issues with it across a range of games. Other slight annoyances are that it can take a while to get the keyboard split just right, and if someone moves it (eg my daughter) it will take it a while to get it just where I want it however it is nice to put the HOTAS warthog down and still be able to type around it.
Verdict:
So if I had the option between the MSNK or the MEP which would I pick? Has Microsoft rereleased it with mechanical switches? No? Then the MEP wins hands down. I tried to go back for a bit just to compare and the dome keys feel so squishy I didn’t want to type anymore. The Matias switches carry the keyboard over and beyond my favourite keyboard of all time, and they really have to be commended for not only actually creating a keyboard for people like me, but making a quality product that would not look out of place in any office.
So since I want them to make keyboards I will use here is my advice to them for a version 2:
Move the lights for num lock/scroll lock etc to the top of the keyboard like the Logitech Internet 350. Label the T keys secondary functions and make sure it only fires when used with the fnc key.
Move the num lock key if possible, maybe put it up where delete is and bring the delete key down to just above the left arrow key (between pgup and the up arrow). Yes I know that it is only a problem for people used to the MSNK but let’s be honest, who is the target market of this? Having delete there would also mean you could hit it without lifting your right wrist.
Additionally please release a keypad add on ASAP (I know you guys are working on it) (usb keypad btw is fine) but importantly, when we have num pad on that let the right hand side still let us type fully. (Not sure how you would do this, does the num lock actually send the signal to windows or is it a purely internal keyboard feature?) A dedicated programmer keypad would see me throwing money at my screen. (Brackets, colon and semi colon, ABCDEFX for hex numbers and ipv6)
Additionally add a dedicated calc button
And really… that is about it. Optionally a couple of programmable keys wouldn’t go astray but if that would require additional software instead of straight up plug an play then don't worry about it. Really the two initial points above would be enough to make what is truly a great keyboard into a phenomenal one.
TLDR If you want a mechanical replacement for the Microsoft natural keyboards, the Matias Ergo Pro is a great option, once you unlearn the bad habits associated with pressing the extra wide N key. You will want a dedicated num pad though for serious number work. Can't go back to the Microsoft Natural now.
Post by: pepsicles on Tue, 17 March 2015, 20:43:34
Am I still eligible for an exchange for the 2nd production model, even though I purchased from an authorised reseller?
Normally I would take it back to the reseller to resolve this but the reseller, from past experience with them, are quite strict on their refund and exchange policy so I really rather not deal with them.
Post by: litster on Tue, 17 March 2015, 20:57:40
Post by: Matias on Tue, 17 March 2015, 21:02:36
So I have an issue. I just purchased my Ergo Pro today from an Australian authorised reseller and I love it, everything but the numlock key. I didn't realised that the layout of the 2nd production model had changed until I stumbled across this thread, if I had known I would have definitely waited and purchased the 2nd run production as the control key would be much more useful than a numlock key for me in my line of work.
Am I still eligible for an exchange for the 2nd production model, even though I purchased from an authorised reseller?
Normally I would take it back to the reseller to resolve this but the reseller, from past experience with them, are quite strict on their refund and exchange policy so I really rather not deal with them.
Yes, just email help@matias.ca explain the situation, along with the reseller name. We'll work it out with them, or have you send it to somewhere local.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 17 March 2015, 21:03:47
Matias, any update on when the 2nd batch of keyboard orders will be shipped out? Thanks.
Still on schedule for April...
Post by: litster on Wed, 18 March 2015, 10:35:31
Matias, any update on when the 2nd batch of keyboard orders will be shipped out? Thanks.
Still on schedule for April...
Sounds good. Thanks.
Post by: pepsicles on Thu, 19 March 2015, 03:57:16
When numlock is engaged it only requires the "T" button to be press to switch it to scrolling mode, instead of the both the" Fn + T" keys to be pressed as specified in the manual. Was this function incorrectly implemented?
Post by: Matias on Thu, 19 March 2015, 05:16:58
I also discovered something weird that the reddit reviewer also stumbled upon.
When numlock is engaged it only requires the "T" button to be press to switch it to scrolling mode, instead of the both the" Fn + T" keys to be pressed as specified in the manual. Was this function incorrectly implemented?
It is correctly implemented on the keyboard. What you've discovered is that Windows' num lock mode sucks...
There are actually 2 num lock functions on the keyboard:
1) the Num Lock key that turns the embedded number pad on/off.
2) the standard Windows Num Lock key that flips the mapping of the number pad to numbers or nav keys. This is triggered by "Fn+T" on the Ergo Pro.
The Windows Num Lock (2 above) serves no purpose, other than to make life difficult for keyboard designers, and confusing for their customers. Since the Windows Num Lock should be ON all the time -- there's no reason for it to even exist. It's a vestigial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality) key that should've been killed a long time ago.
Post by: pepsicles on Thu, 19 March 2015, 05:31:31
2) the standard Windows Num Lock key that flips the mapping of the number pad to numbers or nav keys. This is triggered by "Fn+T" on the Ergo Pro.
I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at, my concern isn't that it's there or that it could be activated, rather that it's activated even if you don't hold down the Fn button and just press T.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 19 March 2015, 05:44:21
2) the standard Windows Num Lock key that flips the mapping of the number pad to numbers or nav keys. This is triggered by "Fn+T" on the Ergo Pro.
I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at, my concern isn't that it's there or that it could be activated, rather that it's activated even if you don't hold down the Fn button and just press T.
Sorry, I just re-read your question...
Yes, that is how it works. All the num lock mode keys are active when the embedded number pad function is on.
Post by: pepsicles on Thu, 19 March 2015, 05:55:48
2) the standard Windows Num Lock key that flips the mapping of the number pad to numbers or nav keys. This is triggered by "Fn+T" on the Ergo Pro.
I think you might have misunderstood what I was getting at, my concern isn't that it's there or that it could be activated, rather that it's activated even if you don't hold down the Fn button and just press T.
Sorry, I just re-read your question...
Yes, that is how it works. All the num lock mode keys are active when the embedded number pad function is on.
Sorry I meant the nav key on the num lock keys are being activated with just "T" instead of "Fn + T" as specified in the manual
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 19 March 2015, 18:10:37
Post by: Matias on Fri, 20 March 2015, 23:35:50
Sorry I meant the nav key on the num lock keys are being activated with just "T" instead of "Fn + T" as specified in the manual
Yes, that's correct. Both ways work...
When the embedded number pad is ON, pressing T will toggle Microsoft Windows' Num Lock mode on/off. If you're running Mac OS X, then pressing T triggers the Clear key (which is the same keycode as Windows' Num Lock key).
In addition to that, regardless of whether the embedded number pad is ON or OFF, pressing "Fn + T" will have the same effect as described above.
In addition to all that, the PC BIOS settings control the default state of Num Lock when you boot up your computer.
I really wish this weren't so complicated, but unfortunately, Microsoft has yet to fix this dumb design of theirs.
Post by: Matias on Fri, 20 March 2015, 23:36:31
Can I get on an e-mail list for when they are back in stock and when you will have the blank PBT model available?
PM me and we'll add you to the list.
Post by: bcredbottle on Sat, 21 March 2015, 08:50:56
Post by: zxz on Tue, 24 March 2015, 04:32:02
Post by: Matias on Tue, 24 March 2015, 14:05:44
Is the ISO layouts being made in the second production run? Looking forward to receiving my UK keyboard in April!
Yes, they're being done together.
Mr. Matias, are there any keycaps compatible with the Ergo Pro?
Any standard ALPS keycaps will the keys between the furnction keys and the numbers.
Post by: ADent on Fri, 27 March 2015, 02:58:06
Ctrl-Eject brings up the shutdown/sleep dialog. That would be Ctrl-Fn-E on this keyboard, right?
Media keys - hit them and they work or is it Fn-key to make them work (For example F12 or Fn-F12 to increase the volume)?
My existing QFR keyboard will do eject if I hold down the F12 key for a bit. So that would be Ctrl-F12 (or maybe Ctrl-Fn-F12) to bring up the shutdown dialog. Does that work here?
Post by: Matias on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:46:43
Mac users - some questions.
Ctrl-Eject brings up the shutdown/sleep dialog. That would be Ctrl-Fn-E on this keyboard, right?
Yes, that's correct.
Media keys - hit them and they work or is it Fn-key to make them work (For example F12 or Fn-F12 to increase the volume)?
By default, you just hit them and they work.
If you prefer to have Fn+F12 (etc) instead, you can change that in Apple menu > System Preference > Keyboard. In this respect, it works just like a stock Apple keyboard.
Note that the above is only for the Mac version of the keyboard. For the PC version, it's always Fn+key for media functions.
My existing QFR keyboard will do eject if I hold down the F12 key for a bit. So that would be Ctrl-F12 (or maybe Ctrl-Fn-F12) to bring up the shutdown dialog. Does that work here?
No, your QFR is using the generic USB keyboard driver on OS X.
The Ergo Pro hooks into the Apple USB keyboard driver.
Post by: Salaryman Ryan on Mon, 30 March 2015, 14:46:00
Post by: kshopper on Thu, 02 April 2015, 09:46:32
Can someone explain what these tripods are and where I might find them?
Thx.
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Thu, 02 April 2015, 13:44:37
Post by: kshopper on Fri, 03 April 2015, 22:54:50
@kshopper: There are standard tripod screw mounts in the bottom of each half of the keyboard. You can get probably any tripod of any size and screw it into the bottom of the keyboard! You just have to find a tripod somewhere that does what you want.
My question is more regarding whether anyone is using this configuration and if so, what specific tripods they used. Basically, this sounds like a compelling idea but I have no idea what type or model of tripod would work for this?
Perhaps Matias could recommend one, must have had something in mind when designing the Ergo Pro.
Post by: spwath on Tue, 07 April 2015, 11:47:10
Like a modern apple adjustable keyboard.
Now, what switches are closest to the alps in the apple?
Post by: bcredbottle on Tue, 07 April 2015, 23:46:05
Post by: bcredbottle on Wed, 08 April 2015, 08:46:21
Mr. Matias, I popped open one of the switches and removed the rubber damper. It sounds good. Is there anything wrong with this? Will it hurt the switch in the long run?
Actually, nevermind. I answered my own question. I just moronically broke one of the switches while taking it apart. Now I don't have a switch for the number between 8 and 10, or I guess between 8 and 0 on the board. I wish there was an emoticon for sheepishness.
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 08 April 2015, 09:44:37
Geekhack soldering thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824
Post by: bcredbottle on Wed, 08 April 2015, 10:03:33
Matias Quiet Click Switch - 5 Pack $5.88 shipped (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=480)
Geekhack soldering thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824
You are too kind. Thanks!
Post by: Matias on Wed, 08 April 2015, 13:15:06
@kshopper: There are standard tripod screw mounts in the bottom of each half of the keyboard. You can get probably any tripod of any size and screw it into the bottom of the keyboard! You just have to find a tripod somewhere that does what you want.
My question is more regarding whether anyone is using this configuration and if so, what specific tripods they used. Basically, this sounds like a compelling idea but I have no idea what type or model of tripod would work for this?
Perhaps Matias could recommend one, must have had something in mind when designing the Ergo Pro.
We only tested with larger tripods (floor mounted) -- for example, if you're a standing desk user or doing a stage presentation (standing up).
If you're placing them on a desk, you need desktop tripods. You want ones with a built-in ballhead, not too high, and with a wide base for stability. Something like these (which again, we haven't tested)...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/687341-REG/Oben_TT_100_TT_100_Table_Top_Tripod.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/843953-REG/Oben_TT_50_TT_50_Table_Top_Tripod.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283757-REG/Manfrotto_709B_709_Digi_Tabletop_Tripod.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/843953-REG/Oben_TT_50_TT_50_Table_Top_Tripod.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283757-REG/Manfrotto_709B_709_Digi_Tabletop_Tripod.html
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 08 April 2015, 18:41:00
We only tested with larger tripods (floor mounted) -- for example, if you're a standing desk user or doing a stage presentation (standing up).If you ever get a chance, it would be awesome to see some videos of someone trying this. (Or using other types of custom supports.)
If you're placing them on a desk, you need desktop tripods. You want ones with a built-in ballhead, not too high, and with a wide base for stability. Something like these (which again, we haven't tested)...
Post by: kshopper on Tue, 14 April 2015, 18:29:10
Thanks for the links.
Any update on the ship date for the 2nd run?
Post by: Skaary on Fri, 17 April 2015, 08:08:48
As I'm having trouble again with my RSI I was looking at getting a Rollermouse. However, I'm not quite sure if a Rollermouse is a good match for the Matias Ergo and its wrist pads. Does someone know if its no problem or maybe even uses this combination himself? Getting a Rollermouse just to test it out (350-400€ in Germany) is a bit too much for me.
Thanks.
Post by: rsadek on Fri, 17 April 2015, 10:29:47
Just found this thread yesterday and had to order one. Looks awesome!
As I'm having trouble again with my RSI I was looking at getting a Rollermouse. However, I'm not quite sure if a Rollermouse is a good match for the Matias Ergo and its wrist pads. Does someone know if its no problem or maybe even uses this combination himself? Getting a Rollermouse just to test it out (350-400� in Germany) is a bit too much for me.
Thanks.
on the roller mouse website I saw a free 30 day trial program. Customers can fill out a request form to enter. I don't know if there are geographic restrictions, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.
For what it's worth I am planning to use a CST trackball placed between the two halves of the ergo pro...possibly moving it to the left or right side throughout the day. This approach seems promising b/c is quite high and should match the keyboard height closely. These trackballs are much cheaper than a roller mouse as well.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 18 April 2015, 13:12:22
We only tested with larger tripods (floor mounted) -- for example, if you're a standing desk user or doing a stage presentation (standing up).
If you're placing them on a desk, you need desktop tripods. You want ones with a built-in ballhead, not too high, and with a wide base for stability. Something like these (which again, we haven't tested)...
If you ever get a chance, it would be awesome to see some videos of someone trying this. (Or using other types of custom supports.)
It's on my to-do list, but my to-do list is pretty long :) so I suspect you'll see actual users post videos long before I do.
Just found this thread yesterday and had to order one. Looks awesome!
As I'm having trouble again with my RSI I was looking at getting a Rollermouse. However, I'm not quite sure if a Rollermouse is a good match for the Matias Ergo and its wrist pads. Does someone know if its no problem or maybe even uses this combination himself? Getting a Rollermouse just to test it out (350-400� in Germany) is a bit too much for me.
The Rollermouse is ackward with ergonomic keyboards, because it's a one-piece design that doesn't allow for separation or tenting.
Is your RSI mostly the result of mouse use or keyboard use?
If it's mouse related, I'd favour the Rollermouse or a trackball. If it's keyboard related, I'd go with the Ergo Pro and perhaps a trackball.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 18 April 2015, 13:19:24
Any update on the ship date for the 2nd run?
Still on schedule, and we'll be doing the EU models at the same time.
EU keycap artwork is below, along with draft Japanese. We'll do Japanese models if Filco decides they want to distribute them...
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: Skaary on Sat, 18 April 2015, 16:17:31
The Rollermouse is ackward with ergonomic keyboards, because it's a one-piece design that doesn't allow for separation or tenting.
Is your RSI mostly the result of mouse use or keyboard use?
If it's mouse related, I'd favour the Rollermouse or a trackball. If it's keyboard related, I'd go with the Ergo Pro and perhaps a trackball.
It's mostly mouse related, that's why I'm looking into alternatives (again). As there are almost no good trackballs out there (didn't test a CST one yet, importing it is quite costy too) I was hoping that a Rollermouse would be the answer to my problem.
Oh well, just gotta continue testing then. Pity that it's such a pain to get most of the stuff in Germany w/o having to pay an arm and a leg. ~~
Thanks for answering.
Post by: Matias on Sat, 18 April 2015, 17:08:59
The Rollermouse is ackward with ergonomic keyboards, because it's a one-piece design that doesn't allow for separation or tenting.
Is your RSI mostly the result of mouse use or keyboard use?
If it's mouse related, I'd favour the Rollermouse or a trackball. If it's keyboard related, I'd go with the Ergo Pro and perhaps a trackball.
It's mostly mouse related, that's why I'm looking into alternatives (again). As there are almost no good trackballs out there (didn't test a CST one yet, importing it is quite costy too) I was hoping that a Rollermouse would be the answer to my problem.
Oh well, just gotta continue testing then. Pity that it's such a pain to get most of the stuff in Germany w/o having to pay an arm and a leg. ~~
Thanks for answering.
Our graphic artist likes the "Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball". It's been around forever. The Keyboard Company in the UK sells them and ships to Germany. Less than half the cost of the Rollermouse, and works without interference with ergonomic keyboards...
http://www.keyboardco.com/trackball/trackball-kensington-expert-mouse.asp
Here are a few other options...
http://www.keyboardco.com/trackball/slimblade-trackball.asp
http://www.keyboardco.com/trackball/trackball-kensington-orbit-optical.asp
Post by: zxz on Sun, 19 April 2015, 08:59:24
Post by: Matias on Sun, 19 April 2015, 14:06:51
Noticed that you've changed the location of the 0 and . key for when numlock is enabled. This is compared to my current matias mini, I don't really use the numlock so I'm not really that bothered but just curious as to the reasoning of the change.
It's a minor thing, but it makes it a little more comfortable for people who move their hand up one row and use their thumb to press 0 and .
Post by: bcredbottle on Sun, 26 April 2015, 13:41:46
Post by: Matias on Sun, 26 April 2015, 14:55:22
I've noticed that there's a breaking-in period with this board. When I type now (after a month or two with the board) I notice that it feels much more tactile, and the sound is soooo much better than when I first bought it. I don't know how to describe it but it's much more...lush.
Mechanical devices are like that. Glad you're happy with it...
Post by: sinisterTypist on Fri, 01 May 2015, 11:53:20
Thanks, Matias!
Post by: Matias on Fri, 01 May 2015, 12:10:49
Any updates regarding second-run shipping? I'm one of those first-run converts that elected for a num-lock replacement... Also, when do you expect the alternative color wrist rests to be available?
Thanks, Matias!
Thanks for asking...
Production is still underway. We expect to be done next week.
The replacement palm supports are being made at the same time, but are coming by ocean freight (which takes about a month longer to arrive). We're flying in enough keyboards to fill pre-orders -- but that's too expensive to do for the palm supports.
Post by: psm on Wed, 13 May 2015, 13:09:27
The Rollermouse is ackward with ergonomic keyboards, because it's a one-piece design that doesn't allow for separation or tenting.
Is your RSI mostly the result of mouse use or keyboard use?
If it's mouse related, I'd favour the Rollermouse or a trackball. If it's keyboard related, I'd go with the Ergo Pro and perhaps a trackball.
It's mostly mouse related, that's why I'm looking into alternatives (again). As there are almost no good trackballs out there (didn't test a CST one yet, importing it is quite costy too) I was hoping that a Rollermouse would be the answer to my problem.
Oh well, just gotta continue testing then. Pity that it's such a pain to get most of the stuff in Germany w/o having to pay an arm and a leg. ~~
Thanks for answering.
I've been using this kind of device exclusively for shoulder RSI for over 20 years: http://www.keyboardco.com/mouse/logitech-wireless-trackball-m570.asp For me, it is pretty much perfect, and completely fixed my RSI.
Post by: jbm on Thu, 14 May 2015, 08:19:23
Production is still underway. We expect to be done next week.
Hi Matias - is it too soon to request another update on the second run? :)
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Thu, 14 May 2015, 08:23:20
Have you been happy with the amount of demand that you've seen for the Ergo Pro?
I'm just asking because I want the Ergo Pro to be a success, so that there will be a better chance of replacement parts, accessories and future versions being released long into the future. Anyway, best of luck with the new product.
Post by: kshopper on Thu, 14 May 2015, 12:12:34
I've been using this kind of device exclusively for shoulder RSI for over 20 years: http://www.keyboardco.com/mouse/logitech-wireless-trackball-m570.asp For me, it is pretty much perfect, and completely fixed my RSI.
[/quote]
Ditto for me. Using variations on this model since the mid-1990's and no issues with RSI. Much cheaper than many of the alternatives also.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 14 May 2015, 22:43:36
So, Matias, since we're all here in this thread, I'd like to ask you a bit of a "personal" question regarding the Ergo Pro keyboard. Feel free to not answer if you don't think it's appropriate.
Have you been happy with the amount of demand that you've seen for the Ergo Pro?
Yes, we're very happy with the response/sales of the Ergo Pro. The first production run sold out quick, and the 2nd run is continuing to sell well.
I'm just asking because I want the Ergo Pro to be a success, so that there will be a better chance of replacement parts, accessories and future versions being released long into the future. Anyway, best of luck with the new product.
You can definitely expect to see accessories for it. We're already doing the coloured palm supports. Keycaps will also be available.
Hi Matias - is it too soon to request another update on the second run? :)
Sorry, we're going to need a few more days. It's looking like Tuesday/Wednesday now that we'll be done. The Ergo Pro is a lot more difficult to manufacture than a normal mechanical keyboard.
Really looking forward to supply catching up with demand!
Post by: jbm on Fri, 15 May 2015, 18:24:13
Sorry, we're going to need a few more days. It's looking like Tuesday/Wednesday now that we'll be done. The Ergo Pro is a lot more difficult to manufacture than a normal mechanical keyboard.
Really looking forward to supply catching up with demand!
Makes sense - thanks for the reply!
Post by: Pandora on Tue, 19 May 2015, 15:19:39
- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable. I had a Kinesis -- I hated it and it broke after six months. I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 19 May 2015, 17:27:16
- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable. I had a Kinesis -- I hated it and it broke after six months. I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.
This was vigorously debated in another thread, so I'd rather not get into it again here -- other than to say that the ErgoDox also has the 6 key on the right side...
https://geekhack.org/?topic=66322.msg1564972#msg1564972
Post by: smknjoe on Tue, 19 May 2015, 18:05:54
- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable. I had a Kinesis -- I hated it and it broke after six months. I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.
...a very long time ago? So, ten years? ;) ...
Post by: FullTwisting on Tue, 19 May 2015, 18:30:30
- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable. I had a Kinesis -- I hated it and it broke after six months. I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.
This was vigorously debated in another thread, so I'd rather not get into it again here -- other than to say that the ErgoDox also has the 6 key on the right side...https://geekhack.org/?topic=66322.msg1564972#msg1564972
The real solution would have been to put the 6 on both sides!! ;)
Seriously though, is there a technical reason why that couldn't be done? I'm not sure I've seen any keyboard do that. Maybe I should pattent that. :p
Post by: Matias on Tue, 19 May 2015, 19:48:44
The real solution would have been to put the 6 on both sides!! ;)
Seriously though, is there a technical reason why that couldn't be done? I'm not sure I've seen any keyboard do that. Maybe I should pattent that. :p
You should add an extra "B" as well. It's exactly in the centre of the keyboard, so could be assigned to either side. :-)
Post by: sordna on Tue, 19 May 2015, 20:32:57
. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable.
Forgetting traditional keyboards for a second (which are utterly horrendous) keyboards should be symmetric, just like human hands are. Therefore there most natural and obvious way to split the 10 digits is 5 on the left and 5 on the right. Matias made the right choice here. I hope their next keyboard design takes ergonomics even further and does away with the diagonal, left-leaning key columns on the left half.
Post by: Matias on Wed, 20 May 2015, 22:15:36
Post by: Hairball on Wed, 20 May 2015, 22:38:59
I just got word that our 2nd production run is complete, and Ergo Pros are being flown over now!
Awesome! So... if I were to no longer be able to resist and ordered now is the next production run still set for delivery in July? I've got a birthday right around the corner so hey maybe this is my present to myself ;)
I actually need a new ergo keyboard right now (sick of the crappy switches in my Microsoft Natural 4000 though I like the layout) and while I also have a nice Ducky mechanical it's a non-ergo layout and that always hurts my writs after a while.
Post by: Matias on Thu, 21 May 2015, 01:08:15
I just got word that our 2nd production run is complete, and Ergo Pros are being flown over now!
Awesome! So... if I were to no longer be able to resist and ordered now is the next production run still set for delivery in July? I've got a birthday right around the corner so hey maybe this is my present to myself ;)
Yes, we're taking orders now for July... :-)
Post by: nobodysbusiness on Thu, 28 May 2015, 09:57:09
Thanks, Matias!
Post by: zxz on Fri, 29 May 2015, 08:32:34
Post by: Hairball on Fri, 29 May 2015, 10:15:56
Post by: smeggysmeg on Fri, 29 May 2015, 11:18:57
I preordered for the second batch back in February, in the hopes of getting it before my birthday, which is this week. I knew there was going to be some amount of delay, but I never imagined it would be this far past the projection. A long delay with the first batch made sense because it was a new product, but after that I would think the production process would be smoothed out, no more design work would be needed, etc.
I'm still looking forward to getting the board, don't get me wrong. My wife is just disappointed that she has nothing to say, "look what you have for your birthday!"
Post by: smeggysmeg on Fri, 29 May 2015, 17:37:36
Post by: Hairball on Fri, 29 May 2015, 18:32:23
Of course, right after I made that comment I get a notice from UPS that a shipment is coming to my address that's roughly six pounds, and I haven't ordered anything recently. I think I know what it is :)Oh that figures lol. Hope that's what it is - let us know if you get it.
Post by: billputer on Fri, 29 May 2015, 18:57:18
Post by: zxz on Sat, 30 May 2015, 06:19:25
Post by: h1ro on Sun, 31 May 2015, 14:48:56
(http://i.imgur.com/PRkvU8p.jpg)
Looks like one key has been removed from the undo/cut/copy/paste on the far left. I wonder why that happened?
Post by: planet36 on Sun, 31 May 2015, 22:42:32
Post by: Matias on Mon, 01 June 2015, 21:55:38
Someone just posted this on Reddit mechanicalkeyboards:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/PRkvU8p.jpg)
Looks like one key has been removed from the undo/cut/copy/paste on the far left. I wonder why that happened?
That is the ISO version, which doesn't have an Undo macro key -- unlike the US and JIS versions which do.
This is because the German layout swaps the Z and Y keys, so an Undo macro key wouldn't work if it were there.
Post by: kshopper on Tue, 02 June 2015, 12:36:50
I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!
Loving the feel of this keyboard! My perception is that the keys are just a little clackier than the first gen model I had. That one was virtually silent, I'm finding the muted clacks from this one to be fantastic, very rewarding to type on and the sound enhances the accuracy of my typing working in conjunction with the tactile nature of the switches. Any idea why this keyboard would be slightly less quiet than the 1st gen?
The long wait has been worth it!
Ken
Post by: Hairball on Tue, 02 June 2015, 13:33:58
I just received my 2nd production run unit after having previously returned my first run due to the Num Lock placement issue.Well that definitely doesn't help with the long wait I've got until the 3rd run is shipped lol. Nice feedback and interesting about the slight difference in sound. I may have missed this earlier in the thread if someone already posting pics, but can you post a pic showing the new layout and the numpad key with the transparent bar? Thanks!
I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!
Loving the feel of this keyboard! My perception is that the keys are just a little clackier than the first gen model I had. That one was virtually silent, I'm finding the muted clacks from this one to be fantastic, very rewarding to type on and the sound enhances the accuracy of my typing working in conjunction with the tactile nature of the switches. Any idea why this keyboard would be slightly less quiet than the 1st gen?
The long wait has been worth it!
Ken
Post by: h1ro on Tue, 02 June 2015, 13:39:05
This is because the German layout swaps the Z and Y keys, so an Undo macro key wouldn't work if it were there.
How interesting that the German layout switches those two keys! I wonder what led that to happen. Thanks for the information.
Post by: davkol on Tue, 02 June 2015, 14:06:24
The infrequency principle, explained in this paper (http://www.strath.ac.uk/media/departments/economics/researchdiscussionpapers/2013/13-24FINAL.pdf).This is because the German layout swaps the Z and Y keys, so an Undo macro key wouldn't work if it were there.
How interesting that the German layout switches those two keys! I wonder what led that to happen. Thanks for the information.
The explanation for missing Undo makes no sense to me, because… Germans apparently don't need to undo stuff? It sounds more like some obscure hardware-level hack was used to implement those macro keys.
Post by: h1ro on Tue, 02 June 2015, 14:22:22
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 02 June 2015, 15:39:45
The infrequency principle, explained in this paper (http://www.strath.ac.uk/media/departments/economics/researchdiscussionpapers/2013/13-24FINAL.pdf).That paper only has one throwaway line about QWERTZ. You want this one: http://www.strath.ac.uk/media/departments/economics/researchdiscussionpapers/2013/13-10FINAL.pdf
Post by: davkol on Tue, 02 June 2015, 16:36:33
OT It's a pity that Kay insisted on comparison with DSK and completely ignored Hammond, Typo and other quite popular alternatives that had existed back in the day.
Post by: kshopper on Tue, 02 June 2015, 17:17:45
I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!I may have missed this earlier in the thread if someone already posting pics, but can you post a pic showing the new layout and the numpad key with the transparent bar? Thanks!
Mind my hockey puck "mod" I'm experimenting with more extreme tenting angles prior to possibly investing in mini tripods. :)
Post by: davkol on Tue, 02 June 2015, 17:23:52
Post by: Hairball on Tue, 02 June 2015, 17:59:37
Mind my hockey puck "mod" I'm experimenting with more extreme tenting angles prior to possibly investing in mini tripods. :)Awesome, thanks for posting the pics and I appreciate the puck mod - hockey and mechanical keyboards are both near and dear to me :D
Post by: Matias on Tue, 02 June 2015, 20:15:52
I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!I may have missed this earlier in the thread if someone already posting pics, but can you post a pic showing the new layout and the numpad key with the transparent bar? Thanks!
Mind my hockey puck "mod" I'm experimenting with more extreme tenting angles prior to possibly investing in mini tripods. :)
Wow, nice job!
Post by: smeggysmeg on Wed, 03 June 2015, 08:47:47
(http://i.imgur.com/DmqTBfk.jpg)
Post by: zxz on Wed, 03 June 2015, 13:01:53
(http://i.imgur.com/NYvST14.jpg)
Post by: Hairball on Wed, 03 June 2015, 22:20:51
I got mine!Congrats :) I see you have a separate ten key pad - how do you like that setup? It's what I plan on doing as well. Do you use a mouse between the keyboard and the 10-key?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/DmqTBfk.jpg)
Post by: smeggysmeg on Thu, 04 June 2015, 10:12:23
I got mine!Congrats :) I see you have a separate ten key pad - how do you like that setup? It's what I plan on doing as well. Do you use a mouse between the keyboard and the 10-key?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/DmqTBfk.jpg)
It's working pretty well. My muscle memory from using a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 for years is pretty strong, but I'm adjusting well. And no, I don't use a mouse on the right at all - I'm a southpaw.
Post by: Hairball on Thu, 04 June 2015, 10:23:55
It's working pretty well. My muscle memory from using a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 for years is pretty strong, but I'm adjusting well. And no, I don't use a mouse on the right at all - I'm a southpaw.That's what I'm mostly coming from, too. Been using MS ergonomic keyboards for at least 15 years I'd say :-/ However lately I've been about 60% MS Natural 4000, 20% laptop keyboard, 20% Ducky Zero (standard layout). I'm hoping that's loosened up that muscle memory a little bit.
I guess with the mouse always having been on the left you never had to do that larger reach to the right like many people do with normal keyboards - that would be nice, but not enough to get me to mouse on the left ;)
Post by: smeggysmeg on Thu, 04 June 2015, 18:15:35
It's working pretty well. My muscle memory from using a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 for years is pretty strong, but I'm adjusting well. And no, I don't use a mouse on the right at all - I'm a southpaw.That's what I'm mostly coming from, too. Been using MS ergonomic keyboards for at least 15 years I'd say :-/ However lately I've been about 60% MS Natural 4000, 20% laptop keyboard, 20% Ducky Zero (standard layout). I'm hoping that's loosened up that muscle memory a little bit.
I guess with the mouse always having been on the left you never had to do that larger reach to the right like many people do with normal keyboards - that would be nice, but not enough to get me to mouse on the left ;)
Yea, so far I'm a little disappointed in the Ergo Pro, after using a Ducky Zero with Cherry MX Browns at home (the Ergo Pro is for work). The Ergo Pro has so much resistance it doesn't feel too different from the MS Natural 4000; I'm hoping the switches will lose some of their resistance with time, because as it is they're almost gummy-feeling from how much they resist and it makes my typing feel slow and without flow. I'm being patient with it, though, as it's still in the learning/breaking-in period.
I have a Lenovo Thinkpad for a laptop, and I couldn't think of a more comfortable laptop keyboard.
Being a southpaw and a gamer is always an interesting combination. It means that every single game requires a good 20 minutes of trial/error key setup. I switch my left/right mouse clicks, too, which makes my computer impossible to use for nearly anyone else.
Post by: Hairball on Thu, 04 June 2015, 18:49:49
Yea, so far I'm a little disappointed in the Ergo Pro, after using a Ducky Zero with Cherry MX Browns at home (the Ergo Pro is for work). The Ergo Pro has so much resistance it doesn't feel too different from the MS Natural 4000; I'm hoping the switches will lose some of their resistance with time, because as it is they're almost gummy-feeling from how much they resist and it makes my typing feel slow and without flow. I'm being patient with it, though, as it's still in the learning/breaking-in period.Ooh that's not very encouraging :( My Ducky Zero has MX Blues with the little o-ring silencers and I love the sound/feel of that setup. It's interesting hearing your take on the feel of the Ergo Pro. I don't remember seeing anyone else say that. I'm really hoping it works out for all of us!
Post by: 7th1rt3en on Thu, 04 June 2015, 22:23:55
Post by: Matias on Thu, 04 June 2015, 22:37:24
Windows is only recognizing the right half of my keyboard on startup, but the left side works fine after I get to the desktop. This is probably a common issue, does anyone know the fix?
The retractible cable that connects the two sides might not be fully plugged in. Try unplugging both ends and then plugging in again.
BTW, are you using the cable it came with?
Post by: psm on Fri, 05 June 2015, 09:04:58
This keyboard has dip switches which do a number of things. One of them swaps ctrl and caps lock. But mine as shipped has both keys mapped to ctrl. This is fine w/me, but I'm curious what is going on with this - the dip switches are undocumented AFAICT?
Post by: 7th1rt3en on Fri, 05 June 2015, 15:51:30
The keyboard is working fine now, I have no idea what my issue was. Since it's now working, my only real complaint so far are the cables. I agree about the retractable cable being of lower quality than the rest of the board and I also dislike the right angle micro-USB connection. My computer is to my right so not an ideal setup and it's an easy fix for Matias to make if enough people dislike it. I'll be replacing all of the cables. I also wish the keyboard sat a little lower, but I may be alone in that complaint. This was my first mechanical keyboard and I was worried about noise, but the noise from these switches seems comparable to the rubber dome I was using. I also notice very little click, which not what I expedited. I'm definitely liking the split design over a straight keyboard. The palm rests are perfect.
Was there supposed to be a key puller included?
Post by: zxz on Fri, 05 June 2015, 16:10:30
I don't think the retractable cable feels as premium as the rest of the keyboard, would have preferred 2 different length trrs cables much like the 2 USB cables
I just got my ergo pro! In general, I'm very happy with the design - I need a tented keyboard, and have been using a goldtouch for a few months while waiting for the ergo pro. Its nice to be back typing with mechanical switches again. For me, with almost 40 years of typing on a std qwerty keyboard, and 30 years of emacs on same, getting a tentable and splitable keyboard that doesn't throw away all that muscle memory is HUGE.
This keyboard has dip switches which do a number of things. One of them swaps ctrl and caps lock. But mine as shipped has both keys mapped to ctrl. This is fine w/me, but I'm curious what is going on with this - the dip switches are undocumented AFAICT?
Post by: psm on Mon, 08 June 2015, 08:17:40
Here's the post on the dip switch details https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53184.msg1655387#msg1655387 there's nothing about it in the printed leaflet that came with the keyboard. I've been using it with windows 8 for the past week without any issues.Yeah, I found that post as well. I just remembered that I remap all of my systems using a registry hack which changes caps lock to ctrl - I personally have no need for caps lock, ever. So that dip switch truly does nothing in my setup.
I don't think the retractable cable feels as premium as the rest of the keyboard, would have preferred 2 different length trrs cables much like the 2 USB cablesI just got my ergo pro! In general, I'm very happy with the design - I need a tented keyboard, and have been using a goldtouch for a few months while waiting for the ergo pro. Its nice to be back typing with mechanical switches again. For me, with almost 40 years of typing on a std qwerty keyboard, and 30 years of emacs on same, getting a tentable and splitable keyboard that doesn't throw away all that muscle memory is HUGE.
This keyboard has dip switches which do a number of things. One of them swaps ctrl and caps lock. But mine as shipped has both keys mapped to ctrl. This is fine w/me, but I'm curious what is going on with this - the dip switches are undocumented AFAICT?
Completely agree about the cables. I don't like the retractable cable, and have already replaced it with a 6-inch right angle. And, I wish the micro usb was a full size or a mini. It just seems so fragile compared to the rest of the keyboard which feels so solid.
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 08 June 2015, 15:48:17
Quote
We received extra stock with our second batch so your pre-order has now shipped.
Totally didn't expect that so I'm obviously thrilled! Not sure if the extra stock was 1 extra keyboard or 10/20/50/etc. Just interesting to note that at least some 3rd run pre-orders are shipping out early.
Now from the comments recently posted I'm thinking I should pick up a better cable to replace that retractable one that a lot of people seem to dislike.
Post by: malsyned on Tue, 09 June 2015, 14:54:01
FYI - just got an interesting email update on my pre-order for the 3rd production run:QuoteWe received extra stock with our second batch so your pre-order has now shipped.
Totally didn't expect that so I'm obviously thrilled! Not sure if the extra stock was 1 extra keyboard or 10/20/50/etc.
I just placed a pre-order for the July production run and got an email the next day saying pretty much the same thing yours did. So, the extra stock was definitely > 1.
Post by: skylife on Thu, 11 June 2015, 12:12:00
This may be a silly question, but I'd like to try switching right space with backspace. If I understood correctly, the switch for that is under right Alt key. Do I just pop it off using a screwdriver or is there a gentler way?
Also, is there a way to tell if I got the 2nd or 3rd production run? Just curious.
Post by: Hairball on Thu, 11 June 2015, 12:19:34
Hi all, I got the Ergo Pro the other day and I'm really enjoying it so far!I can't answer the first question, but I can tell you that you got the 2nd production run because they haven't done the 3rd run yet. I should actually getting mine today (woohoo!) and I was told it's the 2nd production batch directly by the Matias staff.
This may be a silly question, but I'd like to try switching right space with backspace. If I understood correctly, the switch for that is under right Alt key. Do I just pop it off using a screwdriver or is there a gentler way?
Also, is there a way to tell if I got the 2nd or 3rd production run? Just curious.
Post by: davkol on Thu, 11 June 2015, 12:32:16
Post by: Hairball on Thu, 11 June 2015, 16:17:13
The thing is built rock solid - really like that. No problems with anything about it including the retractable audio connector cable. Yeah it's kinda cheap, but working just fine. I like the switches. Not as much as I like cherry blues, but this quiet switches have a pretty nice feel that will just take a little getting used to. For me the tenting amount is just right so I'm not left wanting more.
The layout... this is going to take a little getting used to, more than I expected lol. Most keys are fine and right where my muscle memory expects them to be coming from an MS Natural 4000. Keep in mind I'm also a developer so that certainly affects the type of things I, well, type. The big exceptions are:
- F5 - so used to hitting this with my left hand while going for the mouse with my right hand. "6" is similar, but much less used.
- Home/End - These I was prepared to have to adjust to. I'm so used to reaching over to where Home or End would be between the Enter key and the Numpad. Just have to retrain my fingers.
And oddly enough it's taking some conscious effort to position my left hand because I was apparently used to having my left hand near the edge of the keyboard where as the Ergo Pro has a column of extra keys near the edge. This one isn't turning out to be very hard to overcome and should be mostly "fixed" in my brain by the end of the day :)
Only time will tell just how much I like it, but so far so good! The real question will be if I stick with just the one at work or do I get another for home... bah, so much money for keyboards lol.
Post by: Salaryman Ryan on Fri, 19 June 2015, 15:07:20
(http://i.imgur.com/x8saFLr.jpg) (http://imgur.com/x8saFLr)
Post by: Hairball on Fri, 19 June 2015, 16:31:50
Finally got mine after a month and a half of waiting. Just got home and used it for a few minutes so no major impressions yet but this is one solid keyboard. Very good build quality and love how comfortable it feels.Nice - I like your setup. I really seriously need some sort of macro board to sit between the keyboard halves, too. Can't decide if I have the time to make one or if I'm lazy enough to just over pay to buy one ;)
The space bars are great IMO. That giant left control takes some getting used to. I still find myself sometimes too far to the left on that ctrl key for various key combos and end up doing, say, ctrl+x when I meant to do ctrl-c. I know there are dedicated undo/cut/copy/paste keys, but it never occurs to me to use them. I guess I should really give those a try and see if they are a better solution. Really wish they were programmable :(
Another annoying thing I found that is totally about my typing habits is that sometimes when I mean to just press the right shift key I manage to press shift+arrow up and when done quickly while typing that highlights the current row of text and then immediately wipes the line as my left hand presses the key I meant to get an uppercase of.
Shift+t = T
Shift+Up+T=erased line and only a T remaining
That sloppy typing is leftover from years of MS Natural keyboard use where they have really big shift keys.
Still trying to remap my brain so I can use the home/end cluster. That's been pretty slow going for me and I do use those keys a fair amount. Minor complaints aside though I do like just typing on this keyboard. The keys feel a little loose to me which doesn't feel ideal, but overall it's pleasant to type on and my typing speed hasn't been generally hurt - only when using things like the home/end keys or the "6" that I'm still not used to being back on the right side where it's supposed to be ;)
Post by: litster on Fri, 19 June 2015, 17:07:50
Finally got mine after a month and a half of waiting. Just got home and used it for a few minutes so no major impressions yet but this is one solid keyboard. Very good build quality and love how comfortable it feels. Took a quick snap of my set up:
(http://i.imgur.com/x8saFLr.jpg) (http://imgur.com/x8saFLr)
The way you setup your keyboard halves, in a V shape, would actually hurt your wrists more than a regular keyboard. You really want the halves be setup in an A shape so you don't have to twist your wrists outward.
Post by: rz on Fri, 19 June 2015, 17:41:48
Few thoughts:
- I like the layout, the learning curve is small. But I just realized that I am pretty bad at touch typing, quite a few bad habits, slowly working them out.
- the build quality is solid
- start to try to do everything with keyboard. I am VIM user, with tmux, so that is taken care of. My firefox in vim mode now, can do pretty much all with keyboard.
- as a VIM user, the Esc key is too far, it is bigger, which is great, but far. I am reconfigure my vim to use other key for Esc. I do hope I can reprogram the right Ctrl key to Esc, which located perfectly.
- the big space bar is great. I think the navigation cluster will be great, which I am still getting used to.
- no use of undo/cut/copy/paste so far, hope I can change them for other use
- I thought I have no need for reprogramming, but after one week, I really hope I can do some tweaking of keys.
- split is great, I can have an Apple track pad in the middle, and trackball on the right.
Post by: Salaryman Ryan on Fri, 19 June 2015, 18:12:09
Quote
The way you setup your keyboard halves, in a V shape, would actually hurt your wrists more than a regular keyboard. You really want the halves be setup in an A shape so you don't have to twist your wrists outward.
Thanks for the tip. Followed your advice and moved the keyboard halves to an A shape, its actually feel much more comfortable.
I write and edit a lot of reports and letters the undo/cut/copy/paste keys are pretty handy especially after I trained my muscle memory to hit them without looking. Seems a bit faster doing two button presses even if I need to take out my left hand out off the home keys. I also agree with the giant Ctrl key. Keep on hitting it by accident when I try to hit option. I love the giant spacebar and modifier keys though.
Post by: litster on Fri, 19 June 2015, 18:37:00
Post by: Salaryman Ryan on Sun, 21 June 2015, 06:34:38
Post by: malsyned on Mon, 22 June 2015, 17:33:44
Did I get a malfunctioning board?
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 22 June 2015, 18:32:05
Occasionally I'm getting spurious 6 and 7 characters being typed when my fingers are nowhere near those keys. I replaced the TRRS cable but I'm still seeing it from time to time. I also have seen some stuck modifier keys but not often enough to be able to describe well.Strange. I'm using the keyboard full time in the office I work at so it's getting a lot of use and I haven't seen anything like that. All the mistakes are purely my own fault so far. Maybe you did get a bad one :-/
Did I get a malfunctioning board?
Post by: malsyned on Tue, 23 June 2015, 16:24:59
Just some quick feedback. The wrist pads are very comfortable but I noticed that it emits this really strong chemical smelling odour. I hope it comes off in time because it really bothers me.
It does. I can't smell that smell from mine any more unless I put my nose right up against the wrist rests.
Post by: Hairball on Tue, 23 June 2015, 18:56:02
Post by: jonhohle on Wed, 24 June 2015, 00:20:52
Occasionally I'm getting spurious 6 and 7 characters being typed when my fingers are nowhere near those keys. I replaced the TRRS cable but I'm still seeing it from time to time. I also have seen some stuck modifier keys but not often enough to be able to describe well.
Did I get a malfunctioning board?
I had a board from the first production run that did the same thing. I would get either the 6/7 or a stuck modifier key about once a day. I sent it back due to the Num Lock key placement and am still waiting for the replacement.
Post by: EE-test on Wed, 24 June 2015, 01:58:03
Post by: spwath on Sat, 11 July 2015, 14:33:11
It seems like the perfect replacement for my Apple Adjustable Keyboard, that I truly love, but many keys are dieing in it.
Should I spend the 200$?
Post by: billputer on Mon, 13 July 2015, 10:55:29
Should I spend the 200$?
Yes. I've had mine for about a month now, and I love it. Excellent switches, great build quality, etc. I don't think you'll regret it, and if you do, Matias is pretty good about returns.
Post by: ergo_typing on Wed, 15 July 2015, 09:41:43
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73419.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73419.0)
Post by: spwath on Thu, 16 July 2015, 09:11:58
hmm ok.Should I spend the 200$?
Yes. I've had mine for about a month now, and I love it. Excellent switches, great build quality, etc. I don't think you'll regret it, and if you do, Matias is pretty good about returns.
Not sure still.
I think ill get it, as I love ergonomic keyboards, and my Apple Adjustable Keyboard from 1994 is having many switches fail. I love it so much, I am still using it to type on, even right now, even though its failing.
Post by: jonhohle on Sun, 19 July 2015, 22:06:52
hmm ok.
Not sure still.
I think ill get it, as I love ergonomic keyboards, and my Apple Adjustable Keyboard from 1994 is having many switches fail. I love it so much, I am still using it to type on, even right now, even though its failing.
As much as I've always wanted to like the Apple Ergonomic, I prefer the Ergo Pro. The function and escape keys on the apple ergonomic are horrendous, and the fact that they all die relatively quickly make them a questionable choice. The switches aren't as nice as the AEKII or Ergo Pro.
Apple had a chance to make a really great keyboard, but the Apple Ergonomic is lacking.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 26 July 2015, 04:32:09
As I understand, in the early 1990s it was expected that the Clinton administration would push through new occupational safety regulations related to RSI, resulting in a brief boom in ergonomic keyboard designs. But then the Republican congress scuttled those rules, and most of the ergonomic keyboards slowly faded away for the next 10 years, alongside the demise of mechanical keyboards generally. See e.g. http://www.tifaq.org/articles/ergonomic_inaction-jan99-vernon_mogensen.html or from a few years later http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/06/senate.workstress/
IMO Matias’s new ErgoPro is the best incarnation yet of this concept, much better than the main current competitor, the Kinesis Freestyle.
Post by: malsyned on Tue, 28 July 2015, 20:28:11
I would get either the 6/7 or a stuck modifier key about once a day. I sent it back due to the Num Lock key placement and am still waiting for the replacement.
I've had this issue with my original keyboard, and the one they gave me as a replacement. I'm working with Matias customer support to track down what the problem is, assuming I didn't just get unlucky and get two malfunctioning keyboards in a row.
johnohle, were you using Linux when you saw the issue?
Post by: mbrown559 on Fri, 31 July 2015, 12:25:35
Post by: jonhohle on Mon, 03 August 2015, 10:11:51
johnohle, were you using Linux when you saw the issue?
I was using OS X. When I get the replacement, I can try a day attached to directly to my Linux desktop (I'm usually working on it, with a Mac as a client).
Post by: jonhohle on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:01:11
johnohle, were you using Linux when you saw the issue?
I was using OS X. When I get the replacement, I can try a day attached to directly to my Linux desktop (I'm usually working on it, with a Mac as a client).
johnohle, were you using Linux when you saw the issue?
I was using OS X. When I get the replacement, I can try a day attached to directly to my Linux desktop (I'm usually working on it, with a Mac as a client).
To follow up - I've been using the new keyboard for 3-4 days. It feels better than I remember it feeling, thankful for the num lock key being moved.
So far, I've only used it connected directly to a 2011 MacBook Pro (no USB hub). I'm currently using an aftermarket TRRS connector. I've had one incident where typing in the "E R T"/"D F G" section of the left board has produced a "6" in the middle of other characters. On my first keyboard this was a >1 time a day occurrence, so I'm happy that it's happening less often.
Haven't tried it connected to a Linux desktop yet. I'll post an update if I spend any reasonable amount of time in that configuration.
Post by: FARSH on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:17:19
Everything is perfect but I could not figure out how to activate and enter numeric keypad (numpad) numbers as marked by red squares in the diagram I have attached. I'm sure I miss something but I could not find a way to activate them in the manual nor online. Could you please help me. I feel lost.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Hairball on Tue, 01 September 2015, 15:38:10
Hello everyone! I have recently purchased Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard for PC (FK403QPC).I'm assuming mine is the same layout as yours and if so it's fn-6 (the 6 key is the num lock hey on mine).
Everything is perfect but I could not figure out how to activate and enter numeric keypad (numpad) numbers as marked by red squares in the diagram I have attached. I'm sure I miss something but I could not find a way to activate them in the manual nor online. Could you please help me. I feel lost.
Post by: FARSH on Tue, 01 September 2015, 16:15:29
Hello everyone! I have recently purchased Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard for PC (FK403QPC).I'm assuming mine is the same layout as yours and if so it's fn-6 (the 6 key is the num lock hey on mine).
Everything is perfect but I could not figure out how to activate and enter numeric keypad (numpad) numbers as marked by red squares in the diagram I have attached. I'm sure I miss something but I could not find a way to activate them in the manual nor online. Could you please help me. I feel lost.
Thank you for your prompt reply. Unfortunately, this method does not work on mine. I just tried it.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 01 September 2015, 16:46:32
Hello everyone! I have recently purchased Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard for PC (FK403QPC).I'm assuming mine is the same layout as yours and if so it's fn-6 (the 6 key is the num lock hey on mine).
Everything is perfect but I could not figure out how to activate and enter numeric keypad (numpad) numbers as marked by red squares in the diagram I have attached. I'm sure I miss something but I could not find a way to activate them in the manual nor online. Could you please help me. I feel lost.
Thank you for your prompt reply. Unfortunately, this method does not work on mine. I just tried it.
Strange, does your FN key work? Print Screen on FN+[ would be a good test, or the right click menu button on right alt :)
Post by: FARSH on Tue, 15 September 2015, 15:54:12
"It’s possible that the number function is toggled off. Try pressing Fn-T, then try the Fn-6."
It works! :thumb:
Thank you, Steve and everyone else who tried to help me.
On the side note, I a little bit puzzled why to design this keyboard functions in a such obscure way and not to follow a traditional, commonly used route (Fn + 6 = NumLock).
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 15 September 2015, 16:13:52
I have received reply from Steve. He suggested to do the following, I quote:
"It’s possible that the number function is toggled off. Try pressing Fn-T, then try the Fn-6."
It works! :thumb:
Thank you, Steve and everyone else who tried to help me.
On the side note, I a little bit puzzled why to design this keyboard functions in a such obscure way and not to follow a traditional, commonly used route (Fn + 6 = NumLock).
Thanks for posting this!
I wonder if it works on the original version too, having an annoyingly positioned number lock that's disabled would be less annoying than an enabled one...
Post by: spwath on Wed, 16 September 2015, 19:48:42
hmm ok.
Not sure still.
I think ill get it, as I love ergonomic keyboards, and my Apple Adjustable Keyboard from 1994 is having many switches fail. I love it so much, I am still using it to type on, even right now, even though its failing.
As much as I've always wanted to like the Apple Ergonomic, I prefer the Ergo Pro. The function and escape keys on the apple ergonomic are horrendous, and the fact that they all die relatively quickly make them a questionable choice. The switches aren't as nice as the AEKII or Ergo Pro.
Apple had a chance to make a really great keyboard, but the Apple Ergonomic is lacking.
Yeah, IDK what they were thinking with the weird membranes for thoes keys.
Yeah, they do die, but I had mine fixed. If it decides to break on me again, I think ill just need to invest the 200$ in the Matias.
I really love the Apple Adjustable Keyboard, but it has its problems.
I plan on using it until its last legs.
Post by: RyanArr on Mon, 26 October 2015, 14:06:32
Using Karabiner's EventViewer it appears that fn+arrow and the nav cluster generate the same scan codes (that is home generates 0x73+Fn and not a clean 0x73). I have no use for the nav cluster and would like to remap them without breaking fn+arrow navigation. Is there any fix for this short of soldering?
Fn doesn't generate a scan code like an Apple Keyboard does. This doesn't matter in most cases, but it's too bad I can't use Fn to activate Dictation.
I was under the impression Fn+<key> was supposed to generate a unique scan code like on the Mathias 60% board, instead I'm seeing nothing. Is this correct or is EventViewer not working at a sufficiently low level?
And, apropos of nothing, I'm planning to desolder the useless cut/paste keys and cover the hole with Sugru. Does anyone else find these annoying? Are they just there to equal out the width of the two keyboard halves?
Post by: Hairball on Mon, 26 October 2015, 14:40:20
And, apropos of nothing, I'm planning to desolder the useless cut/paste keys and cover the hole with Sugru. Does anyone else find these annoying? Are they just there to equal out the width of the two keyboard halves?yep - completely useless for me. If these had been 4 user-defined keys (for our own macros) that would have been ok, but as is I will never use them.
Post by: showman on Mon, 04 January 2016, 13:59:07
@kshopper: There are standard tripod screw mounts in the bottom of each half of the keyboard. You can get probably any tripod of any size and screw it into the bottom of the keyboard! You just have to find a tripod somewhere that does what you want.
My question is more regarding whether anyone is using this configuration and if so, what specific tripods they used. Basically, this sounds like a compelling idea but I have no idea what type or model of tripod would work for this?
Perhaps Matias could recommend one, must have had something in mind when designing the Ergo Pro.
We only tested with larger tripods (floor mounted) -- for example, if you're a standing desk user or doing a stage presentation (standing up).
If you're placing them on a desk, you need desktop tripods. You want ones with a built-in ballhead, not too high, and with a wide base for stability. Something like these (which again, we haven't tested)...http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/687341-REG/Oben_TT_100_TT_100_Table_Top_Tripod.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/843953-REG/Oben_TT_50_TT_50_Table_Top_Tripod.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283757-REG/Manfrotto_709B_709_Digi_Tabletop_Tripod.html
Post by: Matias on Mon, 04 January 2016, 23:34:20
Hi Matias, I sent you a PM as well, but thought I would also ask my question here--new user of the Ergo Pro wondering, what were the larger floor tripods you tested? Looking for a set to use at a stand-up desk. Thanks for the help! If not specific models, features to look for would also be much appreciated!
I don't recall the model, but it was a fairly basic tripod that allowed for tilt and height adjustment. You don't need anything especially fancy or expensive, since it's not for taking photos.
Post by: showman on Thu, 07 January 2016, 21:49:30
Post by: showman on Fri, 08 January 2016, 00:17:47
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 08 January 2016, 00:49:38
Personally, I find a tent angle of anything from about 20°–70° to be comfortable (with a sweet spot in the 35–50° range), depending on the other placement/angles of the two halves. 90° is too much for me.
Edit: oh wait, you have those tilted in a front/back direction, and not at all tented per se. Are you just showing us the range of motion or do you somehow type with a setup like that. If the latter can you post a video?
Post by: showman on Fri, 08 January 2016, 01:09:06
Post by: showman on Fri, 08 January 2016, 01:15:42
Post by: showman on Fri, 08 January 2016, 01:28:09
Post by: showman on Sat, 09 January 2016, 13:16:45
They are of excellent quality, solid aluminum, with cork on the bottom to not scratch your desk or surface underneath, made in Italy, highly stable, very compact, and foldable desktop tripods that will allow you to to tilt from angle of 0 to 90 degrees on your Ergo Pro. They are installed very quickly, needing only a screwdriver and 1 minute to remove the 14/20 screw from the bottom of the ergo Pro and the pods themselves can be easily removed without uninstalling the whole kit and reattaching the bottom screw, if needed. To get this level of adjustability and functionality on my Kinesis Freestyle, I had to pay over $150 for the Ascent kit, and the Kinesis keyboard is non-mechanical, and not as nice or pretty a keyboard, and the Ascent is much heavier and actually less adjustable and more of a pain to adjust, since the ball-head on the Manfrotto makes the Ergo Pro infinitely adjustable, while the Kinesis with Ascent has 10 pre-set angles from 10-90 degrees, though it is easier to gauge what angle one is at on that unit, and to "lock in" one's favored position . If I recall, the keyboardio is also coming with tripod screwholes on the bottom, so I recommend the Manfrotto 709 to those who have one of these coming and are looking for desktop tripods for maximum adjustability. I'd love to just have a set of floor pods, but the desktops were much cheaper. If anyone comes across a decent floor unit for this purpose for Standing desk use, do PM me or post it here.
Post by: showman on Tue, 12 January 2016, 10:46:24
Here are the proper pictures.
Post by: showman on Tue, 12 January 2016, 11:04:27
Showman: Are you using that with a ~90° tent as your regular keyboard?
Personally, I find a tent angle of anything from about 20°–70° to be comfortable (with a sweet spot in the 35–50° range), depending on the other placement/angles of the two halves. 90° is too much for me.
Edit: oh wait, you have those tilted in a front/back direction, and not at all tented per se. Are you just showing us the range of motion or do you somehow type with a setup like that. If the latter can you post a video?
Hi, Jacobolus. You might have just noticed that I had the keyboard set up incorrectly in the first batch of pictures, since the axis of the keyboard needs to be rotated for it to be used in 90 degrees, which I had not initially realized. But I do typically type at the 90 degree tent. If you want to see a video, I can provide you with one. It's not particularly much different from typing at 70 degrees though, if you have tried that. It is probably slightly slower than other configs, and would obviously not be feasible for someone who is not a touch-typist (you can't see the keys, though this is no concern to me), but I find it is the most comfortable angle to type on, because your wrists are not flexed at all, but lay to their sides in their usual, neutral posture. Consider that when you're not doing anything with your hands, how do they naturally fall? Not flexed forwards, but to their sides, so tentng the keyboard vertically allows your wrists to set in a very natural, relaxed, neutral position. Thus, I think the ability to tent the keyboard to 90 degrees is a significant benefit for the Ergo Pro for some users, and it is significantly better keyboard than the other two options on the market with this capacity. The other two keyboards that go vertical are, first, "The Safetype", which is a highly unsatisfactory vertical keyboard seemingly premised on the "any keyboard will do" theory, so long as the keyboard is used in the best ergonomic position, and second, the Kinesis Freestyle, which is non-mechanical, and the Ascent kit costs upwards of $150-200, meaning that the Ergo Pro plus $20-30 tripods is both cheaper and better and the Ascent + Freestyle. I say better because the keyboard is much higher quality, and is an actual mechanical keyboard, and has built in wrist rests, and perhaps most importantly, it is also far more secure on the tripods than the kinesis is on the ascent, which would always shake during typing at high angles and high separation. Thus, I think this is the best of the 3 options on the market for pure vertical typing, and can easily be used for tenting at 30-40-50-60-70-80 degrees as well.
Post by: Matias on Tue, 12 January 2016, 11:27:49
the Kinesis Freestyle, which is non-mechanical, and the Ascent kit costs upwards of $150-200, meaning that the Ergo Pro plus $20-30 tripods is both cheaper and better and the Ascent + Freestyle. I say better because the keyboard is much higher quality, and is an actual mechanical keyboard, and has built in wrist rests, and perhaps most importantly, it is also far more secure on the tripods than the kinesis is on the ascent, which would always shake during typing at high angles and high separation. Thus, I think this is the best of the 3 options on the market for pure vertical typing, and can easily be used for tenting at 30-40-50-60-70-80 degrees as well.
Showman, congrats on getting this working!
The 709 Manfrottos look perfectly suited to the task. Thanks for posting the photos. :thumb:
Post by: showman on Tue, 12 January 2016, 11:55:16
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 12 January 2016, 15:42:50
Oops. I figured out that one has to rotate the keyboard axis to type on it in vertical configuration, so perhaps that it is what the user above was so confused about from the initial pictures.Right. :-)
Looks like a great setup. How well do those tripods stay fixed on the table while you’re typing? Any scooting over time? (“never wobbles or shakes” sounds pretty good!)
Post by: chx on Tue, 12 January 2016, 17:26:38
Also, Manfrotto is high quality. Their (OK, Kata, but Kata is now Manfrotto) backpack is https://medium.com/@chx/kata-bug-205-pl-as-a-monitor-backpack-9bca09db464d my choice of carry on backpack.
Post by: showman on Thu, 14 January 2016, 13:14:57
(Note: I just watched this and wanted to note that the shaking in the video is just my phone shaking, since I lacked a tripod for the phone and it's just being held up by resting on my computer! Maybe I could use another tripod...)
Post by: showman on Thu, 14 January 2016, 13:18:10
Oops. I figured out that one has to rotate the keyboard axis to type on it in vertical configuration, so perhaps that it is what the user above was so confused about from the initial pictures.Right. :-)
Looks like a great setup. How well do those tripods stay fixed on the table while you’re typing? Any scooting over time? (“never wobbles or shakes” sounds pretty good!)
Haha. You definitely caught the problem before I did! I was perhaps a little too eager to post my tripod setup, neglecting the sage advice that one should check that something first works before showing it to others.
The keyboard itself doesn't move whatsoever once properly screwed into the pods, which is to be expected as they are much lighter than even the small cameras this table-top is built for. There is a 90 degree notch for the ballhead that makes it easy to find where the 90 degree angle is, but it took a bit of trial and error to initially set up to get your desired angle and the right accompanying angle for the tripod legs that will be stable and still fit beneath the keyboard when fully vertical. I probably have mine at closer to 80 than 90 because it's a bit difficult to position the legs underneath the keyboard to let it go perfectly vertical, though it could easily be done if one was inclined to remove the wrist rest and could maybe be fully vertical with the wrist rests attached, but it's not clear that the small difference in angle makes much a difference, as slightly below a full right angle still preserves the hand position that eases my wrist pain, and makes typing slightly easier because one can see the keys a bit if required (I don't usually need this once I get going with typing, but often for just entering short bits of text like passwords or logins it's useful to be able to see). The tripod legs did take a little tinkering to get into the right position, and there was some slipping initially, but once the legs were set properly at a wide, even spread, they seem very stable, particularly so considering my keyboard tray is set at a negative tilt. I posted a video if you'd like to see!
Post by: showman on Thu, 14 January 2016, 13:39:35
OH MY GOD A LIGHTERWEIGHT KINESIS ASCENT REPLACEMENT! I am the guy who runs around the world to various Drupal conferences since 2009 with a Kinesis Freestyle + Ascent. And I am really sick of the weight of it (and the constant worry of what the heavyweight and kinda sharp steel will do to everything else in the luggage -- this is mitigated by using an adequately small messenger bag for the whole thing but that's a waste of space and adds even more weight). I will try this setup. I will keep you all posted. THANKS!
Also, Manfrotto is high quality. Their (OK, Kata, but Kata is now Manfrotto) backpack is https://medium.com/@chx/kata-bug-205-pl-as-a-monitor-backpack-9bca09db464d my choice of carry on backpack.
Nice backpack! I definitely recommend this setup if you've been using that kit. This is definitely a significant upgrade in every way from the Kinesis Ascent + Freestyle, which was keyboard of choice and personal savior for quite awhile, despite its heaviness, huge footprint, and decent but non-mechanical keys, and somewhat ugly blue-gray colored board. I even think the Ergo Pro+Manfrotto is more stable to type on, which was surprising, considering the ascent kit is made of heavy weight steel. Maybe the only advantage of the Kinesis + Ascent is that it's very easy on that board to set a precise angle and precise distance, and adjust very quickly, but the Manfrotto's are not particularly hard to adjust, it's only that the only guide mark you'll have is the 90 degree notch on the ball head, rather than a notch for each 10 degree increment of angle on the Kinesis, which also allows you to set a particular distance and lock it in, which you can't do here. The Ascent might also be easier to use on a really unstable surface like a bed, where tripods would presumably be difficult. (I may now repurpose my Ascent kit for this use.) But these are rather small advantages compared with the superiority of typing experience with the Ergo Pro. I was willing to give up a mechanical keyboard to get enhanced adjustability because there were no other options until now allowing this degree of angle adjustability for mechanical keyboards (at least that I knew of.) This would be a very easy board to travel with. I took it on the subway the other night to show my sister my new keyboard and would not have noticed it in my backpack at all. I think it was a very wise move by Matias to allow connections allowing 3rd party kits for tenting and tilting when there is already a significant market in good products of this kind, rather than lock people in to a very expensive and proprietery set-up like the Ascent. While there surely are some advantages to the Ascent kit, such as its flat surface, and the ease of setting any angle from 10-90 by a separate notch for each one, and locking in one's distance with thumb screws, I think these advantages are minor and the Ergo Pro + Tripods does everything the Ascent kit does, and adds wrist rests, top quality mechanical keys, nicer looking board, much smaller footprint, and much lighter. I think it's probably better for home use as well, but if you're using this for travel, no question that the Manfrotto plus Ergo Pro would be superior, since the whole thing is super light and the legs can just be folded up and the boards separated and placed on top of each other to take up very little space or weight in your bag.
Post by: Gerk on Fri, 15 January 2016, 11:45:58
Post by: showman on Fri, 15 January 2016, 12:08:05
Post by: Gerk on Fri, 15 January 2016, 12:09:56
Post by: chx on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:03:11
does everything the Ascent kit does, and adds wrist rests, top quality mechanical keys, nicer looking board, much smaller footprint, and much lighter.
The Matias Ergo Pro landed, the tripods are coming tomorrow according to the tracker of Canada Post. But I am curious: why do you need a palmrest on a vertical keyboard? (At first I was surprised how hefty the keyboard is then I was very happy once it turned out most of the weight comes form the palmrest which I immediately removed.)
One more question: I am really dubious of any cabling using these spring-coil mechanisms. I have a number of broken such cables to show why. Would http://www.amazon.ca/YCS-Basics-foot-3-5mm-conductor/dp/B00FJEGXLW or http://www.mycablemart.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3796 this work instead? But, the ability to remove the cabling completely is fantastic for travel.
Post by: showman on Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:34:20
does everything the Ascent kit does, and adds wrist rests, top quality mechanical keys, nicer looking board, much smaller footprint, and much lighter.
The Matias Ergo Pro landed, the tripods are coming tomorrow according to the tracker of Canada Post. But I am curious: why do you need a palmrest on a vertical keyboard? (At first I was surprised how hefty the keyboard is then I was very happy once it turned out most of the weight comes form the palmrest which I immediately removed.)
One more question: I am really dubious of any cabling using these spring-coil mechanisms. I have a number of broken such cables to show why. Would http://www.amazon.ca/YCS-Basics-foot-3-5mm-conductor/dp/B00FJEGXLW or http://www.mycablemart.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3796 this work instead? But, the ability to remove the cabling completely is fantastic for travel.
Post by: showman on Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:38:03
does everything the Ascent kit does, and adds wrist rests, top quality mechanical keys, nicer looking board, much smaller footprint, and much lighter.
The Matias Ergo Pro landed, the tripods are coming tomorrow according to the tracker of Canada Post. But I am curious: why do you need a palmrest on a vertical keyboard? (At first I was surprised how hefty the keyboard is then I was very happy once it turned out most of the weight comes form the palmrest which I immediately removed.)
One more question: I am really dubious of any cabling using these spring-coil mechanisms. I have a number of broken such cables to show why. Would http://www.amazon.ca/YCS-Basics-foot-3-5mm-conductor/dp/B00FJEGXLW or http://www.mycablemart.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3796 this work instead? But, the ability to remove the cabling completely is fantastic for travel.
I do not really love the cables myself, yet. But I have also not yet had any problems with them. Nor have I heard of, or seen, any better options. I will check out the models you suggest here, and am curious if anyone else has experimented with aftermarket cables with much success?
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:34:22
One more question: I am really dubious of any cabling using these spring-coil mechanisms. I have a number of broken such cables to show why. Would [...] this work instead? But, the ability to remove the cabling completely is fantastic for travel.
Any TRRS cable should work fine. Those you linked look okay, though personally I prefer ones with right-angle connectors. There are a bunch on ebay for $1.50–$2/each. (Note: not standard audio TRS though.)
Post by: chx on Thu, 21 January 2016, 20:38:51
The n is the hardest to get used to on the Ergo Pro, otherwise it's fine.
Post by: RyanArr on Thu, 21 January 2016, 20:55:43
[attach=1]
Post by: showman on Fri, 22 January 2016, 15:54:09
So the tripods are here and I am slightly disappointed to be honest: defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. The bottom screw hole where this would ideally go , the tripod is unable to connect to because of the very wide plate it has collides with the feet :( I have ordered http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0084MTJ0I?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00 two of this to extend the screw. Until then you can only tent because if you put the tripod in the middle then the keyboard is taller than the tripod and you can't go vertical.
The n is the hardest to get used to on the Ergo Pro, otherwise it's fine.
Hi chx. I didn't think to try the bottom hole for the tripod myself because I prefer having the wrist rests attached, after some limited testing. I did try using the keyboard for a minute or two without them and it just seemed to be a better experience with the rests keeping my arms straight while using the keyboard and keeping me from resting my palms on the keyboard. If there is some reason you suggest removing them, let me know, as perhaps I'm overlooking something here.
Having the rests attached does make the tripod positioning slightly more complicated, since the rests are where you might want to position one of the legs. Nevertheless, while it took me a day or two to figure out the proper tripod leg positioning, I didn't have the same experience as you that you cannot go vertical with the ergo pro and the tripods. I don't see what you mean by the keyboard being taller than the tripod from the middle position, since it doesn't appear this way to me. What tripods did you get?
I'll upload some closer pictures of mine in a vertical position.
but
Post by: showman on Fri, 22 January 2016, 16:00:38
What exactly does the screw you linked to do? Sorry, I'm just not quite understanding what you're doing here and I'm curious if there are potential improvements I'm not aware of!
Post by: showman on Fri, 22 January 2016, 16:12:36
Post by: showman on Fri, 22 January 2016, 16:25:23
What's the bottom cable? I kind of like the looks of that one myself. Can anyone tell me whether I am looking for a cable that specifically says TRRS, or do you just mean a cable with a 3.5 male to male connection?
Would also love to see your custom cable when it comes in! I found Mimic's store, but I'm curious as to what did you order, as I wasn't quite sure what to look for there. This is the first I'm learning of this new entity, "custom cables", and I must say I am intrigued.
I was thinking of ordering one of these: http://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-3-5mm-Stereo-Audio-Coiled-/dp/B00RXNUEJ4/ref=sr_1_42?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1453502467&sr=1-42&keywords=3.5mm+Male+to+3.5mm+Male+Stereo+Audio+Cable+Coiled
This looked ok to me, too, though I don't know much, if anything, about cables. http://www.amazon.com/Lemeng-Extension-Coiled-Spiral-3-25Feet/dp/B019F9U7NQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1453502753&sr=1-1&keywords=trrs+coiled
I can confirm that any TRRS cable works, but note that it's hard to find one short enough to look tidy. If the cable is too long the right angle connectors are worse than the standard ones. The two cables pictured are both from eBay and were the shortest I could find. The right angle one is only 1 foot long, but still petty sloppy looking. I've given up on getting anything decent off the shelf and have ordered a custom cable from Mimic.
(Attachment Link)
Post by: chx on Fri, 22 January 2016, 17:12:48
Post by: RyanArr on Fri, 22 January 2016, 18:51:05
What's the bottom cable? I kind of like the looks of that one myself.Here are links to the cables I pictured. I didn't link them initially because eBay links are transient, but they work for now.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321490597345?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/321490597345?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5mm-Male-to-3-5mm-Male-AUX-Stereo-Audio-Cable-TRRS-4-pole-AV-/172062430098? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5mm-Male-to-3-5mm-Male-AUX-Stereo-Audio-Cable-TRRS-4-pole-AV-/172062430098?)
Quote
Can anyone tell me whether I am looking for a cable that specifically says TRRS, or do you just mean a cable with a 3.5 male to male connection?It needs to have four conductors. Sometimes TRRS won't be in the title (sometimes you'll also see 4-pole in titles), but a standard 3.5mm stereo (also called TRS) will not work. TRRS stands for Tip Ring Ring Sleeve, those are the four conductors.
Quote
Would also love to see your custom cable when it comes in! I found Mimic's store, but I'm curious as to what did you order, as I wasn't quite sure what to look for there. This is the first I'm learning of this new entity, "custom cables", and I must say I am intrigued.It shipped this morning, I'll try to remember to post a pic here once it arrives. It's about time I posted a pic of all the other customizations on my Ergo Pro anyway. I made a custom order that isn't really on the site. I ordered a USB cable (lower quality cable than what they normally use for audio, and thus about $10 cheaper) with TRRS ends on it.
Quote
I was thinking of ordering one of these: http://www.amazon.com/KabelDirekt-3-5mm-Stereo-Audio-Coiled-/dp/B00RXNUEJ4/ref=sr_1_42?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1453502467&sr=1-42&keywords=3.5mm+Male+to+3.5mm+Male+Stereo+Audio+Cable+CoiledWill not work, it's TRS.
Quote
This looked ok to me, too, though I don't know much, if anything, about cables. http://www.amazon.com/Lemeng-Extension-Coiled-Spiral-3-25Feet/dp/B019F9U7NQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1453502753&sr=1-1&keywords=trrs+coiledThis is TRRS and will work. Note the three stripes on the connectors.
Post by: chx on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:05:44
If you do not add a nut the screw is way too long and presses against the PCB which I didn't dare to risk.
Until I get the other one fixed, I have a huge Gorillapod here, I think it's the DSLR size and for now it is serving left keyboard duty.
Complete temporary https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPpk230mt8yPBjflYGzPomPUPhK9eWg0eKLZg0 setup. You can see how the Gorillapod attaches to the middle and how much higher it is than the Manfrotto while the Manfrotto tripod attaches to the bottom -- this will be much nicer once the other Manfrotto is converted. You can see the bolt already on the desk as a teaser trailer :) You can also the vertical mouse I use which fits this setup nicely. (The teddy bear is a Merrythought Baby Golden Grizzly cub.)
The bolt was 12 (canadian) cents each at Home Depot. It needs to be a 1/4-20 hex bolt. I paid more for the bus ticket to get there :)
I am fully vertical with a mechnical keyboard! :D
Post by: Matias on Sat, 23 January 2016, 11:22:10
These might be better pictures to see what's going on . (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
In China right now, but REALLY enjoying seeing these photos (though the Google ones are blocked here).
Mind blown... :-)
Edgar
Post by: showman on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:13:00
https://goo.gl/photos/PGYMVCfkY7wsErcLA see this? I replaced the plate with a nut and now the keyboard is flying nice and high and vertical :) I couldn't tear apart the other one but I will get a bigger wrench :)
If you do not add a nut the screw is way too long and presses against the PCB which I didn't dare to risk.
Until I get the other one fixed, I have a huge Gorillapod here, I think it's the DSLR size and for now it is serving left keyboard duty.
Complete temporary https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPpk230mt8yPBjflYGzPomPUPhK9eWg0eKLZg0 setup. You can see how the Gorillapod attaches to the middle and how much higher it is than the Manfrotto while the Manfrotto tripod attaches to the bottom -- this will be much nicer once the other Manfrotto is converted. You can see the bolt already on the desk as a teaser trailer :) You can also the vertical mouse I use which fits this setup nicely. (The teddy bear is a Merrythought Baby Golden Grizzly cub.)
The bolt was 12 (canadian) cents each at Home Depot. It needs to be a 1/4-20 hex bolt. I paid more for the bus ticket to get there :)
I am fully vertical with a mechnical keyboard! :D
Congratulations! Let me mention, however, that your second Google picture doesn't work and I am very curious to see your gorillapod and vertical mouse!
So, in the first picture, what you've done is replace the standard manfrotto attachment with a 1) 15mm quick release mount, and 2) 1/4-20 hex bolt? And then you've also removed the wrist rest and the plate beneath it from the ergo pro? I'm curious, though I may keep it as is, as I still kind of like having the wrist rest and it seems stable in the middle position for me.
Post by: showman on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:14:46
These might be better pictures to see what's going on . (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
In China right now, but REALLY enjoying seeing these photos (though the Google ones are blocked here).
Mind blown... :-)
Edgar
Thanks, Edgar! I like having a mechanical keyboard on tripods so much that I may even spring for some floor pods and a second Ergo Pro! Enjoy your trip!
Post by: chx on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:43:06
Congratulations! Let me mention, however, that your second Google picture doesn't work and I am very curious to see your gorillapod and vertical mouse!
So, in the first picture, what you've done is replace the standard manfrotto attachment with a 1) 15mm quick release mount, and 2) 1/4-20 hex bolt? And then you've also removed the wrist rest and the plate beneath it from the ergo pro? I'm curious, though I may keep it as is, as I still kind of like having the wrist rest and it seems stable in the middle position for me.
Does imgur work better? (http://i.imgur.com/OKreVIU.jpg) I put in a red arrow where the problem is.
Yes I removed the palm rests. The Manfrotto sits in the screw hole opposite the arrow keys. There is a foot right next to that screw hole. The plate is too wide. So the only thing I did was replacing the plate with a bolt, I scrapped the other idea. I wish I were handy with a CAD program to draw :/ but the problem is the plate is wide. Does this help? (http://i.imgur.com/AYpPsdi.jpg) now imagine removing the plate and there you have it.
Note the Gorillapod is NOT as sturdy as the Manfrotto -- who would've thought -- so it's only temporary, I will have a bigger wrench on Monday to fix the problem. Basically, on tripod1 i just grabbed the plate with a small pliers one half of the plier holding to the soft top and was able to move it off but on tripod2 I need something opening more than 1.5" to grab the serrated perimeter. A table vise would be best, if I can't solve it with the tools my buddy will bring on Monday I will go to the Vancouver Hackspace open house on Tuesday and see to it.
Post by: Cottser on Sat, 23 January 2016, 20:14:24
Post by: showman on Sat, 23 January 2016, 22:04:17
I might try the nut or screw which Chx suggests to see if I can get them open in the 90 degree position, although they have been stable for me like this. Always on the lookout for improvements!
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 23 January 2016, 22:27:36
Post by: chx on Sun, 24 January 2016, 01:15:33
Edit: nevermind, I see the other thread, someone already did :)
Post by: showman on Sun, 24 January 2016, 12:39:36
Another thing ppl might want to consider using is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00P8A56PQ/ this clamp tripod which would allow you to clamp the keyboard to the desk.
Edit: nevermind, I see the other thread, someone already did :)
Thanks! I might try this one... http://www.amazon.com/Arkon-Samsung-Fujifilm-Panasonic-Olympus/dp/B00EKQC88C/ref=pd_sim_421_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=31jGtD5c%2BBL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=1MS3Q3N5CHVW7398Q973
Post by: showman on Sun, 24 January 2016, 12:52:39
The other thing you could do is prop something under the inside leg (like a book, piece of wood, ...).
Tried this with keyboard risers and it worked. Thanks!