Kinesis programing.

[fossala]

I want to remap my windows key to caps lock and can do this fine. But when I switch back to qwerty mode (a friend is over and wants to use the PC) and then switch, back the remapping is gone. Is there a problem with my board or do all kinesis advantages have this problem?

[sordna]

When you switch layouts, you lose your remapped keys, because the entire keyboard is remapped.
I maintain a cheat sheet with the successive key presses I need to do to program my keyboard, so I can quickly bring it back to my liking in the rare case I switch it from Dvorak to QWERTY and back. It takes me about 30 seconds to redo it.

If you have the need to go back and forth on the fly and often, you could program the regular keyboard to have one layout, and the 2nd layer (the keypad one) to have the other layout of your choice. This way you can switch back and forth between 2 totally custom layouts (however you have to sacrifice the numeric numpad keys since you'd have to remap those to letters).

[fossala]

Thats what I guessed. I have a model M on my desk as well, I will just make sure people use that when they need to use my pc. Thanks for the help.

[Input Nirvana]

My experience:

People look at the Kinesis like it's from another planet. Some at first don't recognize it as a computer keyboard (it's not always on a desk in front of a monitor). No one usually wants to touch it. They always ask for a real, or regular keyboard. The few that do, stop, look around like they are lost, and ask for a normal keyboard. I'm surprised anyone would want to use yours

If the custom-controller project ever goes any further, there will be basically an improved Kinesis controller, a controller on steroids that can be used with any keyboard.

[fossala]

Two of my friends have used my kinesis so far. One was my brother that can touch type poorly (about 10-15wpm) and he said it was comfortable but frustrating. Mainly because he uses his left thumb for space, I did tell him it could be remapped though. The other was a friend that thinks he is some 1337 h4x0r programmer and he started mashing it in a 3 finger peck didn't like it because he was making too many mistakes.

[Lanx]

great thing about having an alien looking kinesis, no one uses your computer, or can (aside from the basic password you put on). (plus i usually just boot up my netbook for ppl who come over to use, my computer is my computer no one touches it).

[dorkvader]

great thing about having an alien looking kinesis, no one uses your computer, or can (aside from the basic password you put on). (plus i usually just boot up my netbook for ppl who come over to use, my computer is my computer no one touches it).

as it should be.

I direct people to my other computer which in is QWERTY. My laptop keyboard is in Dvorak, except for 8 keys, because I can't move 4 of them.

[Architect]

Careful doing extensive reprogramming of the Kinesis. I did that and bricked the keyboard, it had to be sent in for about $60 to get fixed. Actually I think all I did was to remap the option and control keys, or some such.

[sordna]

Careful doing extensive reprogramming of the Kinesis. I did that and bricked the keyboard, it had to be sent in for about $60 to get fixed. Actually I think all I did was to remap the option and control keys, or some such.

I've been extensively reprogramming several Kinesis keyboards for years without a problem. I bet most Kinesis users remap keys and I've never heard of anyone brick a keyboard. How come Kinesis didn't fix it for free, was it after the warranty expired? Can you share the mail/documentation they gave you to describe what happened?

[Architect]

I've been extensively reprogramming several Kinesis keyboards for years without a problem. I bet most Kinesis users remap keys and I've never heard of anyone brick a keyboard. How come Kinesis didn't fix it for free, was it after the warranty expired? Can you share the mail/documentation they gave you to describe what happened?

It was just out of warranty, I personally own two of their top of the line and have bought at least five or six Advantages over the years at work, I was surprised they didn't give it a pass. I did have another that lost it's brain and was relatively new which they did replace for free. For that one they tried sending me several ROMS which I replaced but didn't fix the problem.

We use them at work and I've seen a lot of problems with the Kinesis over the years. Not saying it's a bad keyboard, it was the only choice for a long time. But it's expensive and I think they really need to revamp the firmware and keyboard design a little. This design is what, 20 years old or something by now?

[sordna]

it's expensive and I think they really need to revamp the firmware and keyboard design a little. This design is what, 20 years old or something by now?

Yup the design is old and sadly nobody has beat it yet. Splitting the keyboard in 2 movable halves would be the biggest possible improvement (that goes for the TE as well). But revamp the firmware? You gotta be kidding me, the Kinesis controller features are simply AMAZING, nothing comes close to it.

If you've seen better features in any other production keyboard controller, do let me know.

[Input Nirvana]

"Brick" the keyboard, that can happen? Hmm. If it did "brick" even out of warranty, Kinesis didn't fix for free? Hmmmm I wonder if it is something else, not as easily explained. Maybe the keyboard finally broke, which is a little different than what we probably consider "bricking". I mean, remapping a key is not that complex of a function, and the keyboard is designed to do just that. I'm just thinking out loud. I didn't think the hardware/firmware/software was complex enough to 'brick". Kinesis has, in most cases, satisfied even my most ridiculous requests, ideas, and have offered without me asking. All in all, they have a very generous and deep support side to their company. But there are always exceptions.

Revamp the 20 year old design: #1-F key row into the keywells so I can touch type them. If not, I'll do it myself. #2-Add a couple keys in the thumb clusters and key wells. If not, I'll do it myself. #3-Offer a totally split version. If not, I'll do it myself.

Revamp the firmware: Besides the fact the Kinesis controller is the most comprehensive controller on the market, of course there is always room for improvement. I'm aware of only about a half dozen keyboards that offer similar (the TE is now one of them).

As far as seeing a lot of problems with the Kinesis over the years, because it was the only choice...ergonomically, I'd have to say it's STILL the only choice. Nothing has changed with the TE being delivered, the TE does not change the game in any way. The TE seems less ergonomic (although someone may find it more comfortable or more their preference). It remaps keys like the Kinesis. It does not improve the F key row as far as touch-typing is concerned (but they do use regular switches instead of the rubbers). There are DIP switches that offer some additional configuring options. Maybe the TE is another choice, but it's a step-down choice from the Kinesis, and not many people willingly 'step down" and are happy. I am looking forward to reviews by people that use a Kinesis and try the TE. The biggest flakey issue I think is that the TE is self-touting as a physical "ergonomic solution" when in reality I believe it's strength is the programmable controller and the ergo options that provides. But wait, oh yea, Kinesis has been doing that for what, 20 years? Oh yea, AND they can be called, emailed, written to, and you get a response. Track record speaks volumes.

Architect, I'd like to see some videos, or at least some pics of these boards and how you use them, how you compare them, and anything else you think might be of use to the interested Geekhack community. Anything is welcome besides just blind touting of a keyboard that just has been delivered yesterday. I mean really, you wouldn't expect anything less, would you?

I really do look forward to your in-depth review and comparison. TE needs some solid representation. This sounds like this will be it.

[Architect]

'Blind touting of a keyboard?' This forum continues to amaze me. I got it and said I liked it so far, I'm hoping it'll work out for me, and now I'm apparently accused of blindly touting the keyboard.

No sorry, I'm not going to take the time to add videos and comparisons. I came on the board to talk about the TE and have been accused of being a TE spy or worse. I just come back occasionally during TE's long wait to report on progress, and now that I've gotten the keyboards I'm happy. With this reception why should I give one more minute to GeekHack giving TE 'solid representation', you've got to be kidding me, I'm done here.

"Brick" the keyboard, that can happen? Hmm. If it did "brick" even out of warranty, Kinesis didn't fix for free? Hmmmm I wonder if it is something else, not as easily explained. Maybe the keyboard finally broke, which is a little different than what we probably consider "bricking". I mean, remapping a key is not that complex of a function, and the keyboard is designed to do just that. I'm just thinking out loud. I didn't think the hardware/firmware/software was complex enough to 'brick". Kinesis has, in most cases, satisfied even my most ridiculous requests, ideas, and have offered without me asking. All in all, they have a very generous and deep support side to their company. But there are always exceptions.

Revamp the 20 year old design: #1-F key row into the keywells so I can touch type them. If not, I'll do it myself. #2-Add a couple keys in the thumb clusters and key wells. If not, I'll do it myself. #3-Offer a totally split version. If not, I'll do it myself.

Revamp the firmware: Besides the fact the Kinesis controller is the most comprehensive controller on the market, of course there is always room for improvement. I'm aware of only about a half dozen keyboards that offer similar (the TE is now one of them).

As far as seeing a lot of problems with the Kinesis over the years, because it was the only choice...ergonomically, I'd have to say it's STILL the only choice. Nothing has changed with the TE being delivered, the TE does not change the game in any way. The TE seems less ergonomic (although someone may find it more comfortable or more their preference). It remaps keys like the Kinesis. It does not improve the F key row as far as touch-typing is concerned (but they do use regular switches instead of the rubbers). There are DIP switches that offer some additional configuring options. Maybe the TE is another choice, but it's a step-down choice from the Kinesis, and not many people willingly 'step down" and are happy. I am looking forward to reviews by people that use a Kinesis and try the TE. The biggest flakey issue I think is that the TE is self-touting as a physical "ergonomic solution" when in reality I believe it's strength is the programmable controller and the ergo options that provides. But wait, oh yea, Kinesis has been doing that for what, 20 years? Oh yea, AND they can be called, emailed, written to, and you get a response. Track record speaks volumes.

Architect, I'd like to see some videos, or at least some pics of these boards and how you use them, how you compare them, and anything else you think might be of use to the interested Geekhack community. Anything is welcome besides just blind touting of a keyboard that just has been delivered yesterday. I mean really, you wouldn't expect anything less, would you?

I really do look forward to your in-depth review and comparison. TE needs some solid representation. This sounds like this will be it.

[kps]

I mean, remapping a key is not that complex of a function, and the keyboard is designed to do just that. I'm just thinking out loud. I didn't think the hardware/firmware/software was complex enough to 'brick".

I'd have to agree with that. The controller is locked, and I once spent an afternoon mucking around with the remapping EEPROM, and I really doubt there's anything you could do there that would do worse than have the controller throw up its hands and revert to the default map.

If anyone has a few of those worthless bricked Kinesises for sale, I'm all ears.

[sordna]

Architect, that was uncalled for. Input Nirvana is one of the nicest guys around here, your reaction is really extreme.
You HAVE been touting the TE even before you got it, and you kinda still are:

Totally worth the wait. What a kick! ... this may be my ideal keyboard.

Input Nirvana is not making a big deal out of it, he just mentions a little fact. No reason for you to explode! We are all asking you nicely to contribute some useful and factual information to the forum, and you choose to decline being productive, but rather spread FUD about Kinesis supposedly "bricking" if you try to program it. What nonsense! Please give us some needed/lacking factual info about TE instead, or start a wiki about it.
If you find an entire community of unrelated people treating you badly, maybe, just maybe, it is because of your own actions. You have a chance to provide value to the community and even help Truly Ergonomic, nothing wrong with that. Don't blow it.

'Blind touting of a keyboard?' This forum continues to amaze me. I got it and said I liked it so far, I'm hoping it'll work out for me, and now I'm apparently accused of blindly touting the keyboard.

No sorry, I'm not going to take the time to add videos and comparisons. I came on the board to talk about the TE and have been accused of being a TE spy or worse. I just come back occasionally during TE's long wait to report on progress, and now that I've gotten the keyboards I'm happy. With this reception why should I give one more minute to GeekHack giving TE 'solid representation', you've got to be kidding me, I'm done here.

[Input Nirvana]

'Blind touting of a keyboard?' This forum continues to amaze me. I got it and said I liked it so far, I'm hoping it'll work out for me, and now I'm apparently accused of blindly touting the keyboard.

No sorry, I'm not going to take the time to add videos and comparisons. I came on the board to talk about the TE and have been accused of being a TE spy or worse. I just come back occasionally during TE's long wait to report on progress, and now that I've gotten the keyboards I'm happy. With this reception why should I give one more minute to GeekHack giving TE 'solid representation', you've got to be kidding me, I'm done here.

The "blind touting" statement was maybe a bit rough, I'll admit. But it's also very accurate. I'm calling it the way I see it, and I'm open to criticism (I've been banned!) The statement had nothing to do with you being happy today and saying nice things about the boards you received (which I'm very pleased to hear). It was a reference to 10 months ago when you were the only one gung-ho about a board that had constant changing photoshopped images across the web and an extremely ****ty methodology of contact. NOBODY other than you was so 'blindly positive". And you were taking some heavy shots at Kinesis regarding firmware issues we never got to the bottom of. Either you're one of the happiest, most upbeat people around, or....

On a personal Input Nirvana note, I'm actually not "pro-Kinesis, anti-TE". I'm pro: quality, choices, evolution, good business, health, simplification, durability, ease, flexibility. It doesn't matter who or what. I'm just riding the wave of whomever is in the upper tier of providing as many of those attributes as possible. Until this week, TE has done NONE of these things. Not one. The keyboard actually being delivered was a big stretch, a very big stretch, don't kid yourself. So now, the questions are: What is the TE? What is the TE not? I'm certain it will shine in several areas, just as it will not in others. The overall goal at GH is to see what it is and is not, share the info, and hopefully, that info gets back to manufacturers so they can better design and provide products that WE want. Because if they make what we want, they will be more successful at what they are trying to do.

You say you came to share the TE experience, which until now, for everyone has been nothing other than photoshopped images and lies. Nothing to talk about. This week, for the first time in 2 years there is the real opportunity to share pics, vids, pros/cons, comparisons with other keyboards, comparisons with other TE owners. The heart of GH. Not many people have any interest in "Hey, it's great!" and "I like it". We want the full monty. Most people here are geeks. You're a developer? You fit right in. So why not bust out the 8mm reel cam, and kick in to the collective? It pays off later when people find ways of fixing, improving, selling, suggesting, support.....face it, you ain't gonna get that from TE. You didn't even get a thank you card for putting up with their **** for over a year.

One interesting note on why someone may have accused you of being a TE spy (I think that's funny)...you use a Kinesis and bash their firmware, AND TE seems to position themselves as a 'Kinesis Killer". Coincidence? Again, just calling it as I see it. It's no big deal either way, I'm just trying to clear the air. In the end all that matters is people get keyboards that work better for them.

[fossala]

I have already said that I will not deal with TE because all they have done is lie. As for Architect if he does work/have affiliation with TE he would only be keeping in line with there business ethics of lying to the customers. What still makes me laugh is they say it is more ergonomic than the maltron, kinesis and even the datahand.

[Lanx]

Ppl think Architect is a TE spy, just smell a rat, heck I smell a rat, have said so for so long. It just doesn't make sense, why would anyone glorify a lesser design? Does it cost less? sure but you're already using a better design, or were rather. It's like saying I'm a professional baseball player, but i thin i like using this broom stick to hit the ball instead.

I of course don't have a TE, i would never buy such a BS product, I have made a keyboard similiar but of course even more ergonomically superior to the TE, and even then, even then I've shelved that keyboard in favor of using a 20 year old designed kinesis. (which of course could still be modded to be better, like many of us Kinesis owners want the split 2 halves and such)

So no i cannot directly compare a TE to a Kinesis, but my own custom keyboard is in everyway better than a TE except aesthetically, and still i use and recommend a Kinesis, I don't see why anyone who has a TE and Kinesis in direct comparison usage would ever pick a TE over a Kinesis, unless they are totally unable to use the "thumb cluster" or because the Kinesis is ugly as sin and they just want a prettier keyboard.

btw Kinesis gets a "FAIL" for me in terms of programming, I've said this before i love using the kinesis thumb delete key for shift modifier but i couldn't for the life of me program it to work 100% of the time, i think the matrix just didn't work out well, i've tried it on 2 kinesis classics, so i had to hardwire it to work.

[Input Nirvana]

FWIW: I was not trying to attack Architect, for the simple reason that I don't care that much. I just want to know more stuff. Stuff about Kinesis (all these 'problems'), stuff about TE (pretty much everything, it's only been out a couple days), stuff about supermodels (how can I get one). If the info contained in GH was available in black and white technical format without the personalities, I would be happy. Just want info, and if people are "here" I'm assuming it's for the same reasons. "Just the facts, ma'am".

Lanx, your "4000, A Keyboard Odyssey" is a neat project that I've always liked (just not esthetically). I refer to it for inspiration on what can be done, and as a fine example of "Anti-Apple: Proud to be Fugly".

[Input Nirvana]

Liking the keyboard was/is never the problem.

[Input Nirvana]

You guys sound like Webwit.

Not the worst thing in the world.

That crazy duck called it.

Owe him $3.99 per/minute for that fortune-telling skill.

[Input Nirvana]

Oh

Yea, those are brutal guys with brutal opinions. But I'd rather be locked in a room with them than any GOP candidate. At least I'd know exactly where they stand at all times. Calling a spade for what it is...nothing wrong with that.

Damn ergonomic rathole!

[fossala]

Any proof that he is a paid shill?

Reminds me of Redpill saying I am a Diatec rep.

:shocked: you mean you're not?

[sordna]

btw Kinesis gets a "FAIL" for me in terms of programming, I've said this before i love using the kinesis thumb delete key for shift modifier but i couldn't for the life of me program it to work 100% of the time, i think the matrix just didn't work out well, i've tried it on 2 kinesis classics, so i had to hardwire it to work.

I just tried it on my Advantage (USB) and it seems to work fine. Holding down the Delete thumb key (which I remapped to space) I was able to type all capital letters and symbols. I'll try it on my Classic when I get the chance, but do you remember how to reliably reproduce the issue? Did you contact Kinesis about it?

[Input Nirvana]

If I press the Caps Lock key 20 times in a row, slow or fast, it will 'stick' several of those times. It has happened on several boards. it happens.

[sordna]

I'm intrigued by the idea of shift on the thumb... maybe I should swap the shifts with the control keys since I use shift more often than control. Or maybe we should install a switch in each of the 2 palm areas of the Kinesis! Someone wrote how he used his palm to hit his regular control key, I think it the palm makes more sense for a shift!

[Lanx]

idk, i've been using kinesis delete thumb key for shift since day one 3 months ago? i just did the pressing whatever to program then reprogram like you said and the left side matrix failed sometimes (80%) so i just hardwired it that same day and haven't looked back, i have my project kinesis in a project box atm (no time to mod) and other kinesis stored away, but all 3 are classics. Maybe the older, ps2 white ones just suck for keyboard logic.

[Input Nirvana]

I'm intrigued by the idea of shift on the thumb... maybe I should swap the shifts with the control keys since I use shift more often than control. Or maybe we should install a switch in each of the 2 palm areas of the Kinesis! Someone wrote how he used his palm to hit his regular control key, I think it the palm makes more sense for a shift!

Damn forward thinker. I'm on it. I'll report on a couple mock ups later.

idk, i've been using kinesis delete thumb key for shift since day one 3 months ago? i just did the pressing whatever to program then reprogram like you said and the left side matrix failed sometimes (80%) so i just hardwired it that same day and haven't looked back, i have my project kinesis in a project box atm (no time to mod) and other kinesis stored away, but all 3 are classics. Maybe the older, ps2 white ones just suck for keyboard logic.

Lanx, can you give me the complete serial/model numbers of those units?

[sordna]

Ok, I'll try it on a Classic. Currently I have the Delete and Tab keys swapped. Gosh it would be great to add more thumb keys and perhaps even one long modifier key alongside the 5TGB column, and one along the 6YHN column, to use as shift or keyadshift or something.

[Input Nirvana]

Ok, I'll try it on a Classic. Currently I have the Delete and Tab keys swapped. Gosh it would be great to add more thumb keys and perhaps even one long modifier key alongside the 5TGB column, and one along the 6YHN column, to use as shift or keyadshift or something.

-A long modifier to the right of the "GB" on the left keywell, and to the left of the "HN" on the right keywell? Sort of like the ErgoDox?
-More thumb keys no problem, I have only mock ups shown in the Split Kinesis Mod article.

There is empty "space" on the Kinesis matrix. I don't have what it takes to make use of it though. Either someone here needs to man up and do that, or teach me and I'll do it.

[Lanx]

kb133pc-wht
40561cw

the other 2 are like unfortunately in tupperware containers buried under xmas shipping boxes lol (buy the gifts from amazon).

i only use the two long thumb modifiers on both sides, while the smaller 4 modifiers are nice and stepped, i can't reach them easily or rather comfortably.

[sordna]

I just tried my Classic (exact same model as yours, and serial younger than yours only by about 300) and I could not reproduce the problem. I remapped the left shift first to the delete key, and while holding it down tried all the letters/symbols without issue. I then remapped the right shift to the delete key and repeated the test without issue. The only "issue" I found was that if I hold the original shift and the delete key (mapped to that particular shift) the shift is canceled, and I have to release the keys and press one of them to shift again (could be the OS way of handling 2 concurrent right shift presses or 2 concurrent left shift presses).
Basically I can't reproduce the problem. Maybe you have the macro memory maxed out (it slows down the scan rate of the keyboard). Anyway, here is the version of my Classic's firmware, I'm going to hit shift+shift+F12 to output it:

copyright 1986 - 2002 by interfatron-bbc, ltd., rev 2.60 01/05/02

What's your version?

[Lanx]

}copyright 1986 - 2002 by interfatron-bbc, ltd., rev 2.60 01/05/02
oh same rev.

well either way i'm fine with my solution, maybe you guys will like thumb delete -> to shift too.
i just remapped delete to one of the ctrl keys (right one) why do i need 2?

[Input Nirvana]

I understand why some people want 2 command/win, 2 control, 2 alt/opt...it makes sense, but not always practical.

[Arktik]

Hi there, recently i noticed aproblem on my Kinesis Advantage with German layout and red MX switches.
i swaped the keys for the NEO 2 layout. Now i found that the key that now represents "u" is typing "u" but in Shift-Mode it is "ALT"? I thought that the SHIFT layers aren't movable??
The former key was "a" there is no problem "a"+SHIFT= "A". When the original layout is used also "u"+SHIFT="ALT". Is this an firmware error? Can i fix it myself?

[kps]

When the original layout is used also "u"+SHIFT="ALT". Is this an firmware error?

It sounds to me like a problem on the computer rather than the keyboard. USB and PS/2 do not have different codes for shifted keys. The keyboard just tells the computer, “The ‘u’ key is down”, or “The ‘u’ key is down and the SHIFT key is down”. It is up to the computer to decide that ‘u’+SHIFT = “U”… or ALT.

[Arktik]

Sorry but I can not follow your explaination. I did not mentioned something related to the interface USB or PS2. Btw, all my keyboards use USB.
When i use another usb-keyboad (MS Ergonomic 4000) then "u"+SHIFT="U".

Thanks anyway for your effort to help!

[fossala]

Have you tried reseting the controller and re-programing it?

[sordna]

You made the "a" key produce u? I just tried it and get u and U when shifted. The keyboard remapping moves entire keys around, it doesn't separate shifted vs non shifted. So I too suspect something going on at the computer. Can you boot into Linux and tell me what xev says when you try u and shift+u ?

[Arktik]

A memory reset of the keyboard: Progrm + SHIFT + F10 did it. Because I was to lazy to search for my linux live cd, i used a windows tool KeyCode (http://www.tortools.de/eigenes.html) to display key and scancodes. It was a very strange behaviour: after i pressed "Shift" and then "u" the codes jumped from the codes for the left SHIFT i used to something else and emidiatly to the codes for ALT. So the codes in between i couldn't see. Because the reset was successfull, it seems, it was a keyboard problem. Maybe something went wrong while i was programming the NEO 2 layout.

Thank you!

[fossala]

Does it work when you re-program it in a NEO 2 layout?

[Arktik]

Yes, it does! It's just simpley key remapping *haha*

I hope there will be sometime a controller which allows to remap also the layer/codes reached with the modifier keys left CTRL, right CTRL, left SHIFT, right SHIFT, ALT, ALT Gr, WindowsKey; So it would be possible to have [, ] on one key as an example.

[sordna]

That would be cool, but probably requires software. I heard they were working on some kind of customization software, maybe you can ask for this feature!

[Input Nirvana]

Customized software for Kinesis Advantage boards? Yea, have a Playboy bunny deliver that to my door and I'll die and go to heaven.

[Icarium]

I'm intrigued by the idea of shift on the thumb... maybe I should swap the shifts with the control keys since I use shift more often than control. Or maybe we should install a switch in each of the 2 palm areas of the Kinesis! Someone wrote how he used his palm to hit his regular control key, I think it the palm makes more sense for a shift!

Nice to see somebody else considered this. I was thinking of turning bug into feature and installing a touchpad in the wrist area which could be used as modifier instead of mouse.

Now about programming, I don't really like programming it with keypresses, it makes larger changes annoying and I think adding more layers isn't even possible.

I'm wondering, has anybody tried to add a Tipro controller to it? Though I have to admit that I haven't looked at the true extent of their programming capabilities, will do so later today.

[sordna]

Touchpad would be too touchy. Perhaps a deeply recessed spacebar is needed in the wrist area, sitting on a heavy cherry clear switch might be fitting!

[Icarium]

Touchpad would be too touchy. Perhaps a deeply recessed spacebar is needed in the wrist area, sitting on a heavy cherry clear switch might be fitting!

I think it might be just right, I'd rather not have to use any force pressing down with the palm. But I don't know, you may be right. Maybe I'll experiment some when I can get my hands on another kinesis.

[Input Nirvana]

I think it would be awesome or terrible, no in-between. Implementation is key. I'm curious to see it

[Icarium]

*sigh* I can't find the Tipro programming tutorial anymore. Anybody got a link?