HHKB Silenced Actuation Point 3.8mm, not 2.2mm?

[rxc92]

So according to the google translation of this official PFU article (https://becchy.info/digital-appliance/keyboard-mouse/pfu-limited-edition-hhkb.html), it's stated that the HHKB Type-S has an actuation point all the way down at 3.8mm (full travel, as they have shortened stems), which is essentially rubber dome action. But on the other hand, Realforce silenced boards work at a much reduced 2.2 mm (just over half travel). That would contribute significantly to different key feels I'm sure, as people are already noting the different feeling between 2.2 and 3.0mm actuation (using the new actuation point changer on R2 boards), and probably to why some people feel a big difference between HHKB/RF boards. 
 
Just makes me excited to try out the APC.. what differences could there be? 

[Tactile]

3.8mm travel, not actuation point. I don't think there is a spec from PFU of the actuation point for any model of HHKB.

[rxc92]

3.8mm travel, not actuation point. I don't think there is a spec from PFU of the actuation point for any model of HHKB.

 
It's literally right there in the article that I linked. 
There's specifically has a chart towards the middle-end comparing HHKB and the R2.
HHKB Type-S / Realforce R2
"押下判定の深さ" 3.8mm vs. APCにより以下から選択可能 3mm, 2.2mm, 1.5mm   
"押下圧" 45g vs 45g 
The first one was translated to 'Depth of decision to press' and should refer to actuation point since it's listing the R2 actuation points, not the travel (unless it somehow means one thing for the HHKB and another for the R2, which is impossible since it's a chart). 
The second simply means 'pressing force' and obviously means that they're both 45g. 

[xondat]

Well whoever it is, they're wrong. Looks like a 3rd party review that got their wording wrong.

It's ~2mm.

[Tactile]

Here's a page that Google translates a portion as:

Code: [Select]

3.8 mm key stroke pursuit of performance at high speed keystrokes
Through the redesign of the internal mechanism of the key, the stability and lightness of the keystrokes are optimized,
and the performance of high-speed keystrokes is improved. By protecting against the wear of the pop-up keys,
the stability during keystrokes is increased. In addition, considering the balance of the keystroke pressure,
the original model's 4 mm key stroke is optimized to 3.8 mm, making it possible to make beautiful and brisk keystrokes.

[rxc92]

Well whoever it is, they're wrong. Looks like a 3rd party review that got their wording wrong.

It's ~2mm.

 
 
Doubt that it's wrong because the blog was linked directly by PFU, so it's either by an employee or someone approved. 
Do you have any sources/tests for HHKB actuation? Would be quite interested.

Here's a page that Google translates a portion as:

Code: [Select]

3.8 mm key stroke pursuit of performance at high speed keystrokes
Through the redesign of the internal mechanism of the key, the stability and lightness of the keystrokes are optimized,
and the performance of high-speed keystrokes is improved. By protecting against the wear of the pop-up keys,
the stability during keystrokes is increased. In addition, considering the balance of the keystroke pressure,
the original model's 4 mm key stroke is optimized to 3.8 mm, making it possible to make beautiful and brisk keystrokes.

 
 
Right, which means the HHKB could be set for actuation at full travel rather than a bit over halfway. Not necessarily saying that's the case, but it would make sense (the APC ads specifically mention setting a lower actuation point for coders/typists that the HHKB was intended for). Just pointing out that they're not mutually exclusive.

[Polymer]

why not just take the word from people that actually have it?  It isn't 3.8...

It is a super easy test....

The information is wrong...I don't understand why you don't understand that or believe that the people typing that made a mistake...

[rxc92]

why not just take the word from people that actually have it?  It isn't 3.8...

It is a super easy test....

The information is wrong...I don't understand why you don't understand that or believe that the people typing that made a mistake...

 
 
So here's the rundown, I see some interesting information from a direct source to the manufacturer, and ask 'does anyone have any information on it'. So far nobody has provided any information for a 'super easy test'. If you'd like, why not do this super easy test and prove the actual manufacturers wrong instead of complaining.

[00]

because anyone who's ever used a type-s obviously knows that actuation is before bottom out, can you imagine the reputation they would have otherwise? the article made an error and confused bottom-out with actuation, very simple.

[Kevadu]

There would be literally no point to Topre over a simple dome with slider over membrane design if it didn't actuate until bottom out...

[rxc92]

There would be literally no point to Topre over a simple dome with slider over membrane design if it didn't actuate until bottom out...

 
Well, why not? Topre domes are designed to always bottom out when you press them, the only difference is if it sends the signal earlier or slightly later. I used a Type-S for about a year exclusively quite some time ago, but I don't have a regular Realforce to compare the experience with. It's possible that a big difference like this was simply not noticed by most people because the Topre design is so different from MX/Alps. 
 
It would be nice if someone could make a test rig and measure the input differences! Even if it couldn't actuate the switch to the exact point necessary, if the actuation time of an HHKB is measurably later, it would be proof enough.

[00]

There would be literally no point to Topre over a simple dome with slider over membrane design if it didn't actuate until bottom out...

 
Well, why not? Topre domes are designed to always bottom out when you press them, the only difference is if it sends the signal earlier or slightly later. I used a Type-S for about a year exclusively quite some time ago, but I don't have a regular Realforce to compare the experience with. It's possible that a big difference like this was simply not noticed by most people because the Topre design is so different from MX/Alps. 
 
It would be nice if someone could make a test rig and measure the input differences! Even if it couldn't actuate the switch to the exact point necessary, if the actuation time of an HHKB is measurably later, it would be proof enough.

i have a type s and i am sitting here pressing switches slowly and watching them actuate before bottoming out.

there is no fundamental difference between silenced and unsilenced topre. they are capacitive, and thus do not require full travel to actuate. i am not sure why you doubt this so vehemently.

[rxc92]

there is no fundamental difference between silenced and unsilenced topre. they are capacitive, and thus do not require full travel to actuate. i am not sure why you doubt this so vehemently.

 
 
I think everyone in this thread knows that they don't require full travel. Everyone also knows that they could be programmed to require full (or near-full) travel because of their design. Furthermore, nobody anywhere implied there was a difference in function between Type-S or regular, that was all you.

It's possible that a big difference like this was simply not noticed by most people because the Topre design is so different from MX/Alps. 

So according to the google translation of this official PFU article

 
Not sure why you keep responding with flame when all I've done is provide some interesting information and ask for anything further about it. If you don't think this topic is something you want to respond to, then perhaps don't respond to it.

[Polymer]

I think you're not getting it.

You provided some information from their website..that is obvious from anyone that has used Topre or we will even go specifically the HHKB that it is obviously wrong. 

Anyone that has used it would know (if they bothered) it actuates somewhere in the middle...by many many users experience we know that happens...and it would actually be discussed quite a bit if there was one that didn't or the whole discussion around it (why not look this information up?) would be wrong...but many users on here know that it in fact actuates well before bottom out. 

No experiment necessary...it is a fact.  The ridiculous part is even though people are telling you this, you don't want to believe them..

[rxc92]

 
 
Went and looked everything up on the DT wiki, and it had no information for HHKB actuation point, which is the only reason I'm asking. It's actually a bit sad that I've posted a thread where 8 of the comments are from two people continuing to say what amounts to 'we're sure it's this way without any testing, stop asking'. Literally all I'm saying is give it a test and see if there's a difference or not, and some people have the nerve to be offended...

[Tactile]

I would think that Hasu, during his work developing his Topre controller boards, has observed the actuation point. It's probably not info he had much interest in so he probably didn't even write it down but you could ask him what he remembers. He could certainly tell you if bottom-out is necessary.

[00]

perhaps, if we consider the fact that rubber is difficult to engineer consistently, exact data has not been published because it varies slightly from dome to dome? who knows

I think everyone in this thread knows that they don't require full travel.

are we reading the same thread here? did you take your meds? you said yourself that it must be true because pfu themselves linked this blog somewhere, or something. a quick look at their twitter would reveal that they promote this type of stuff all the time. the site is not affiliated with them in any way. https://becchy.info/other/profile.html

it's just a guy who blogs keyboard stuff and messed up his table.

to be clear i'm not hostile in any way, just bemused that you seem so intent on confirming something that would be obvious to anyone who's ever heard of, let alone used and owned a topre keyboard. that's why no one understands why you're banging on about this. while no one knows what the exact actuation point is, it's sure as hell not 3.8

[Kevadu]

There would be literally no point to Topre over a simple dome with slider over membrane design if it didn't actuate until bottom out...

 
Well, why not? Topre domes are designed to always bottom out when you press them, the only difference is if it sends the signal earlier or slightly later.

Because there are dome with slider designs with very similar (Some people like Chyrosran would argue they can even be superior) key feel to Topre.  The limitation of a conventional dome with slider is that it can only actuate when bottoming out.  There is no way to make them actuate earlier.  Topre's capacitive sensors are much more complex and expensive but the main objective benefit from their design is the ability to make the actuation happen before bottoming out.

Using the expensive sensors of Topre in your keyboard but then programming them to behave like a far, far cheaper dome with slider is just dumb.

[xondat]

I tested on my Type-S with calipers. Actuates anywhere from 2.0 to 2.3mm.

There is 3.8mm total travel. The silencing ring is about .2mm thick, and reduces the travel from 4.0mm.

The article is simply incorrectly translated, or flat out wrong. This is obvious to anyone that owns a Type-S.

[Erikdayo]

I tested on my Type-S with calipers. Actuates anywhere from 2.0 to 2.3mm.

There is 3.8mm total travel. The silencing ring is about .2mm thick, and reduces the travel from 4.0mm.

The article is simply incorrectly translated, or flat out wrong. This is obvious to anyone that owns a Type-S.

Sounds about right to me. Thread over. 

[rxc92]

I tested on my Type-S with calipers. Actuates anywhere from 2.0 to 2.3mm.

There is 3.8mm total travel. The silencing ring is about .2mm thick, and reduces the travel from 4.0mm.

The article is simply incorrectly translated, or flat out wrong. This is obvious to anyone that owns a Type-S.

   
 
Okay, thanks for the info. Would've been interesting if it were the case.