design a keyboard using a commercial pcb

[Ranger_Trivette]

why is that so unusual?

the majoroty of the keyboard IC and GB has a new designed pcb.
sometimes the pbc you need doesn't exist. that's normal.
but, if the layout is standard, why people design and produce new standard pcbs?

i'm asking because i want to design a keyboard, but designing a pcb looks a waste of time to me.
why shouldn't i use a standard one? like Wilba Graphite or something like it.

[suicidal_orange]

You're right - there is no point reinventing the wheel so if there's already a PCB that works why not use it.  This is common in 60% boards where the Poker set a 'standard' for mounting holes and the position of the USB socket but not for other sizes.

The only reasons I can think of are selling a 'keyboard' sounds more premium than a selling a 'case' (if the millions spent on marketing are justified there are many manipulatable people who are influenced by such nonsense) and that it's nice to have your logo on the PCB (even if you can't see it because it's in a case...)

The Graphite even has a daughterboard allowing you to put the USB wherever you want so looks like a great choice to me

[yui]

i think there is also a bit of human hubris of thinking you can do the same thing others tried 100s of times but a bit better and end up with something that is equal or worse very often. but yeah i think that if you design a case you can design it around a pcb, especially an opensource one, maybe ask the creator of the PCB if you plan to sell them with your case though, it would be polite to do so.
and that also i think could be an other reason, if your pcb is unique to your board peoples will tend to buy replacement pcbs from you, so more money, if they are open source, there is less incentives to buy extra pcbs as you can always get an other later down the line potentially from someone else and potentially cheaper.
Ai03 has some nice looking pcb in his voyager series, could likely be a good standard
https://github.com/ai03-2725/Voyager
could also take a look at Gondolindrim's catalogue:
http://acheronproject.com/contents.html
just a few options

[BarfightSpectator]

I think at this point it might just be a lemming thing. Not that long ago I got the itch to design a case myself, not for a groupBuy but just for me (honestly managing a groupBuy seems like way too much of a hassle to me) and the first thing I did was approach a pcb designer about it. without ever considering to just get a ready made one.

Now since I've taken a step back and looked around a bit I've come across a bit of a pickle. There is the occasional PCB that would fit what I'm looking for but they aren't in stock, aren't being produced anymore, or simply were one-off series not meant for a long shelfLife. So I think part of it is also guaranteeing that the people who buy your case & plate don't stand there with something useless or having to handwire a macguyver solution into an otherwise nice design. Because that's the point I'm at after running into only dead-ends over and over.

But even if nobody can see through the plate.. I'll know. 

[Sup]

Its about profit margins most of the time and to make the keyboard look more premium if it has its own PCB with the name of the keyboard on it.

[Ranger_Trivette]

You're right - there is no point reinventing the wheel so if there's already a PCB that works why not use it.  This is common in 60% boards where the Poker set a 'standard' for mounting holes and the position of the USB socket but not for other sizes.

The only reasons I can think of are selling a 'keyboard' sounds more premium than a selling a 'case' (if the millions spent on marketing are justified there are many manipulatable people who are influenced by such nonsense) and that it's nice to have your logo on the PCB (even if you can't see it because it's in a case...)

The Graphite even has a daughterboard allowing you to put the USB wherever you want so looks like a great choice to me

thanks, i totally agree.
imho, a complete board is a "more premium" keyboard only if you really design the pcb.
i mean, if your company has the skill to do both electrical and mechanical design, that's a point for you.

but if you ask to another company to make a pcb under your specification, this only increase the final price of the board, not the quality

and that also i think could be an other reason, if your pcb is unique to your board peoples will tend to buy replacement pcbs from you, so more money, if they are open source, there is less incentives to buy extra pcbs as you can always get an other later down the line potentially from someone else and potentially cheaper.

only if you have "in stock" pcb in the subsequents years.
if you don't and you need to run another group buy... that's a point against.

Ai03 has some nice looking pcb in his voyager series, could likely be a good standard
https://github.com/ai03-2725/Voyager
could also take a look at Gondolindrim's catalogue:
http://acheronproject.com/contents.html
just a few options

thanks, much appreciated

I think at this point it might just be a lemming thing.

i don't know what a lemming thing is, but i googled "lemming" and i laughed.

Not that long ago I got the itch to design a case myself, not for a groupBuy but just for me (honestly managing a groupBuy seems like way too much of a hassle to me) and the first thing I did was approach a pcb designer about it. without ever considering to just get a ready made one.

Now since I've taken a step back and looked around a bit I've come across a bit of a pickle. There is the occasional PCB that would fit what I'm looking for but they aren't in stock, aren't being produced anymore, or simply were one-off series not meant for a long shelfLife. So I think part of it is also guaranteeing that the people who buy your case & plate don't stand there with something useless or having to handwire a macguyver solution into an otherwise nice design. Because that's the point I'm at after running into only dead-ends over and over.

But even if nobody can see through the plate.. I'll know. 

i also started for design a board only for me.
but i'm a project engineer, i work every day with cad, cnc suppliers, production line... i can't stop my self
i undestrand what you mean. you can't see but you will think about your "not-custom pcb" at every click 
 

Its about profit margins most of the time and to make the keyboard look more premium if it has its own PCB with the name of the keyboard on it.

how much do you think a custom pcb (let's say 100pcs) will cost?
i'm asking beacuse i've no idea...

[Maledicted]

I think at this point it might just be a lemming thing.

i don't know what a lemming thing is, but i googled "lemming" and i laughed.

If it is still unclear, lemmings travel in groups and basically just follow each other around. If the mass of lemmings tries a route that ends up being extremely hazardous, the rest just follow suit and may perish as a result having never considered the consequences. The term came to be used to describe people who exhibit a herd mentality and just follow fads/crowds without considering the choices made by that group.

This was the focus of a popular video game series (titled Lemmings) throughout the early to mid 1990s, and you may have even played a clone at some point even if you've never heard of it. The Lemmings were basically mindless masses of flesh that could be directed places by modifying their terrain. If the player creates a situation in which the Lemmings are headed towards a precipice, they'll all just march right off of it.

i also started for design a board only for me.
but i'm a project engineer, i work every day with cad, cnc suppliers, production line... i can't stop my self
i undestrand what you mean. you can't see but you will think about your "not-custom pcb" at every click 

Personally, I don't understand it. If I frankenstein some old OEM board, the sum of its parts is now unique, especially if it is an obscure board and/or reviled by the community. Even those 60% LEGO kit boards you can buy on Aliexpress are going to have a lot of unique permutations between stabilizers and modifications to them, hot wap sockets vs soldered, switch type, manufacturer, spring swap/modification and possible lubrication, case and caps.

The only exception I could see to this is if you designed a one-off PCB, or you hand-wired the whole thing instead of using any PCB. Then it is yours, totally unique, designed and assembled specifically for you. That has some limited ... novelty.

Regardless, a standard layout is a standard layout. There's nothing at all rational about the user caring about the specifics of the design of the PCB within, or who happened to make it, or how many were made, etc, if they have all of the features they're looking for in a board.

[yui]

and that also i think could be an other reason, if your pcb is unique to your board peoples will tend to buy replacement pcbs from you, so more money, if they are open source, there is less incentives to buy extra pcbs as you can always get an other later down the line potentially from someone else and potentially cheaper.

only if you have "in stock" pcb in the subsequents years.
if you don't and you need to run another group buy... that's a point against.

what i was saying it that if you want to maximize profit you do not want to keep the board on the shelf, but make it a one time buy and then gone forever, it is anti consumer to a disgusting point but it will allow you to make more profit, as peoples will buy a few extra PCB at 40 to 60$ just in case their one breaks. so you can move more product at once.

custom PCB can vary, the doddle60 i got was 30 per pcb and that was only paying for pcb and component as far as i know, Jae and Gondolindrim opensourced the board and either Jae paid Gondolindrim in full or he did it for free as an open source project, i dunno how they arranged the thing. although i can vow for the professionalism and quality of the work of Gondolindrim

[Ranger_Trivette]

If it is still unclear, lemmings travel in groups and basically just follow each other around. If the mass of lemmings tries a route that ends up being extremely hazardous, the rest just follow suit and may perish as a result having never considered the consequences. The term came to be used to describe people who exhibit a herd mentality and just follow fads/crowds without considering the choices made by that group.

This was the focus of a popular video game series (titled Lemmings) throughout the early to mid 1990s, and you may have even played a clone at some point even if you've never heard of it. The Lemmings were basically mindless masses of flesh that could be directed places by modifying their terrain. If the player creates a situation in which the Lemmings are headed towards a precipice, they'll all just march right off of it.

ok, in Itlay we do the same, but we use sheeps instead of lemmings

Personally, I don't understand it. If I frankenstein some old OEM board, the sum of its parts is now unique, especially if it is an obscure board and/or reviled by the community. Even those 60% LEGO kit boards you can buy on Aliexpress are going to have a lot of unique permutations between stabilizers and modifications to them, hot wap sockets vs soldered, switch type, manufacturer, spring swap/modification and possible lubrication, case and caps.

The only exception I could see to this is if you designed a one-off PCB, or you hand-wired the whole thing instead of using any PCB. Then it is yours, totally unique, designed and assembled specifically for you. That has some limited ... novelty.

Regardless, a standard layout is a standard layout. There's nothing at all rational about the user caring about the specifics of the design of the PCB within, or who happened to make it, or how many were made, etc, if they have all of the features they're looking for in a board.

totally agree.

what i was saying it that if you want to maximize profit you do not want to keep the board on the shelf, but make it a one time buy and then gone forever, it is anti consumer to a disgusting point but it will allow you to make more profit, as peoples will buy a few extra PCB at 40 to 60$ just in case their one breaks. so you can move more product at once.

custom PCB can vary, the doddle60 i got was 30 per pcb and that was only paying for pcb and component as far as i know, Jae and Gondolindrim opensourced the board and either Jae paid Gondolindrim in full or he did it for free as an open source project, i dunno how they arranged the thing. although i can vow for the professionalism and quality of the work of Gondolindrim

i still see this community made by "keyboard enthusiast" and not simply customers.
that's why i don't like the idea of a custom pcb.
if you run a small GB, you probably won't be able to stock 100 pcbs just to provide spare parts in the future...
so what's the point of custom pcb? still see them as a point against the quality of a project.

[foxieze]

Why use a PCB when you could just handwire? 

[Ranger_Trivette]

Why use a PCB when you could just handwire? 

mmmm that's sweet 

to be honest, i've never think about the possibilities to offer the "handwired" option... but is interesting 

[yui]

Why use a PCB when you could just handwire? 

mmmm that's sweet 

to be honest, i've never think about the possibilities to offer the "handwired" option... but is interesting 

you won't do much more custom than that

[foxieze]

Why use a PCB when you could just handwire? 

mmmm that's sweet 

to be honest, i've never think about the possibilities to offer the "handwired" option... but is interesting 

i started looking into handwiring a few weeks ago, as it seemed like it would be a much cheaper option (considering commerical PCBs are £50 and upwards) and it definitely seems viable if you have the time for it. will certainly be good soldering practice.