Author Topic: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)  (Read 25814 times)

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Offline P3TC0CK

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Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 17:44:15 »
Hi all,

Just making this post as a continuation of my new member post. I'll be putting any progress/updates I make on this project in this thread. I hope that this project ends up creating a great  set of keys that I can eventually produce for others to enjoy.

Any help or suggestions are welcome.

My to-do list:

  • Make prototypes of the keys
  • Find or Create a font with no breaks
  • Manufacture my first set of keys
  • Find an Arabic font for alternative text

I have decided for the sake of simplicity that the first set of keys will be blank if produced. Given the flat nature of the keycaps, you can easily take any keyboard language sticker set and apply it to your keys. I'll mostly likely be doing this since I have not memorized every key.







FAQ:

  • Doesn't Signature Plastics already make this with their G20 key caps and flat keys?

Kind of. They do make 1 x 1 keys in the g20 and Flat key style, but they don't make any other key nor do they plan to do so at any set date. I don't want to wait for them to produce them, so I went ahead and did it myself.

If you can find keys like the ones I plan to make, please let me know.

  • I like the idea, but it doesn't have (insert non US QWERTY key here). Can you add that?

Sure, I'd love to. If you can get my the specifications for your key I can get it designed and added to the final set.

  • What advantage does a fully flat keyboard provide? Is this style of keyboard any better than a standard 'sculpted' keyboard?

I'm not going to make any claims about this key cap set about benefits or advantages over conventional keyboards.

 Friends have mentioned to me that it may be good for games that require multiple, simultaneous button presses and be good for those who want easy travel across their keyboard. It may also be much more easy to keep clean as the space for dirt and other particles to get in between the keys is much smaller. The surface is uniform so it should not be difficult to wipe clean.

That's all speculation.  For me, a flat keyboard is simply something I prefer when typing or using a computer for both aesthetics and comfort. 




Thank you to:

Martin Anel for modeling the keys.
/u/Belgan_waffles on reddit for pointing me the appropriate informartion.
/u/Landrei for providing me information on the keyboard I will be putting these on before I had it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 July 2014, 06:57:23 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 18:35:02 »
Have you looked at Devlin at all?  They already produce some flat caps like that:  http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 12 July 2014, 18:46:24 »
Have you looked at Devlin at all?  They already produce some flat caps like that:  http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html

No I have not, it was pretty hard to find similar keys online and /r/Mechanicalkeyboards didn't respond to my initial interest posts.

I think the closest thing Devlin have available is their "top hat" keys and even then those keys have a slight incline with an odd border around the bottom.

My goal is to make a flat, uniform surface and to minimize the space between the keys as well. I also want to include text and font on them rather than just producing blank keycaps.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 13 July 2014, 05:57:27 »
I've gotten an estimate for the prototypes and it will be something like 150 USD for 8 keys. It's a bit too much for my current budget and the shop in question won't do single pieces, so I'll continue looking for another place to print some test pieces out from.

Edit: Most likely will be using shapeways. Even with 20 dollar shipping the keyset is significantly cheaper.

Edit 2: Shapeways will cost ~25 dollars to print a full set plus an extra key plus 20 dollars shipping. I'll most likely wait until I have a full set of keys with lettering to print out a couple of those as well.
« Last Edit: Sun, 13 July 2014, 07:29:57 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 13 July 2014, 07:28:57 »
Considering 3 fonts at this point:

Font 1

Font 2

Font 3

There's currently 2 font sets I prefer from the three, but I'm not sure which one is the best. If you guys like any of them let me know and I'll consider your opinion :)
petcock
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Offline paicrai

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 13 July 2014, 08:00:37 »
here are my 2 cents and some pocket lint: there's a small 3d printer called Cube that apparently is more available and priced for the common public http://cubify.com/en/Cube
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 13 July 2014, 08:09:37 »
here are my 2 cents and some pocket lint: there's a small 3d printer called Cube that apparently is more available and priced for the common public http://cubify.com/en/Cube

I wish I could afford something like that, not everyone is rich in Dubai heh  ;D

I'm definitely saving up for one in the near future though, there's just so much I want to make.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 04:34:36 »
I've started messaging manufacturers in China to get an estimate on how much it would cost to produce a 10-20 sets of this key cap set. Either in ABS or PBT if the price is reasonable.

I think it'd be safe to go with printing a blank run of these keys first, then making the ones with the cut out lettering but I'm still thinking about which one would be more popular. I'm not the best touch typer so I still lean towards adding text cutouts.

Edit: I'm talking with manufacturers and they are asking me what type of packaging I want. I personally don't want to spend too much, soI just said to place each set in an individual bag/ box. Do you think this is fine? I definitely like the awesome prepackaged full keyboard boxes that some companies use but it's a bit overkill I think and not totally necessary.

Let me know what you guys think.
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 July 2014, 05:29:13 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline paicrai

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 13:14:07 »
i think the caps are the thing and not the packaging, a tight ziplock bag would be enough for me
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 15:06:56 »
i think the caps are the thing and not the packaging, a tight ziplock bag would be enough for me

That's what I thought myself, I always throw away/ recylce most of the packaging I get unless I absolutely need it for returns/ purchases and even then that's only for big purchases.

Baggie it is :D
petcock
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Offline paicrai

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 15:11:54 »

i think the caps are the thing and not the packaging, a tight ziplock bag would be enough for me

That's what I thought myself, I always throw away/ recylce most of the packaging I get unless I absolutely need it for returns/ purchases and even then that's only for big purchases.

Baggie it is :D
maybe you could put it in a tiny cardboard box, for those who want that
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 15:18:39 »
I am fine with the cheapest option as long as it comes in one piece. i.e. plastic bags in a bubblewrapped envelope.

EDIT: These are going to be in the lowest profile possible from that mockup you made, yes?
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 July 2014, 17:18:41 by FrostyToast »
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 17:35:31 »
I am fine with the cheapest option as long as it comes in one piece. i.e. plastic bags in a bubblewrapped envelope.

EDIT: These are going to be in the lowest profile possible from that mockup you made, yes?

The mock ups are what I will be creating, yes. If you'd all like I can upload them for you all to download and play around with yourselves. I'd like to maintain some kind of ownership of the models ( at least for the time being) so I'm not sure how I could do that.
petcock
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Offline taylordcraig

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 18:26:27 »
I'm curious if shapeways regular hi res plastics are adequate or if you will have to use the high detail frost like Matt3os mx-topre sliders.

Also, I would LOVE a set of these.
us ansi 104 key layout plz, maybe a tsangan kit too!

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 18:41:35 »
I'm curious if shapeways regular hi res plastics are adequate or if you will have to use the high detail frost like Matt3os mx-topre sliders.

Also, I would LOVE a set of these.
us ansi 104 key layout plz, maybe a tsangan kit too!


Yes, I'll be using ansi, as I think that's the most common layout (I assume it is) and my preferred layout. However, if you guys can get me the measurements for any other types of keys I wouldn't mind paying to have them made into models as well. I don't have any skill with CAD, so I'm using Fiverr (as mentioned in the credits) to create the special keys.

I'm not against making keys for other layouts, I would just need the measurements to get them done.

For those wondering about the specific measurements that I'm using (at least for the bases), I used this guide from WASD Keyboards and the PDF on the bottom of the page.

Edit: as of now this is the pricing according to shapeways

« Last Edit: Mon, 14 July 2014, 18:49:17 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 14 July 2014, 22:30:41 »
I am fine with the cheapest option as long as it comes in one piece. i.e. plastic bags in a bubblewrapped envelope.

EDIT: These are going to be in the lowest profile possible from that mockup you made, yes?

The mock ups are what I will be creating, yes. If you'd all like I can upload them for you all to download and play around with yourselves. I'd like to maintain some kind of ownership of the models ( at least for the time being) so I'm not sure how I could do that.

If you want to maintain ownership, I believe you can have basic and free protection against people who intend to use your models for profit. So for example someone else would be unable to legally use your models to sell their own keycaps unless you explicitly tell them they can.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 04:11:30 »

If you want to maintain ownership, I believe you can have basic and free protection against people who intend to use your models for profit. So for example someone else would be unable to legally use your models to sell their own keycaps unless you explicitly tell them they can.

Maybe, I always figured I'd need a patent for that. It's really not THAT big a deal for me, so I'll probably upload them in the next few days when I can. They're hardly that hard to copy or recreate on your own I guess.
petcock
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Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 12:52:07 »
If these keycaps are OEM height and have crossbars then I will buy a set.

I am currently looking at a rubberdome keyboard in front of me that has flat square/rectangular keycaps but they are obviously not cherry mx.  But I really like them a lot.  The keyboard came free with an Acer computer in 2012.

Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 15:37:53 »

If you want to maintain ownership, I believe you can have basic and free protection against people who intend to use your models for profit. So for example someone else would be unable to legally use your models to sell their own keycaps unless you explicitly tell them they can.

Maybe, I always figured I'd need a patent for that. It's really not THAT big a deal for me, so I'll probably upload them in the next few days when I can. They're hardly that hard to copy or recreate on your own I guess.

I don't really know... I doubt you could really get a patent for this either since it's so basic, but who knows...
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline onishima

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 16:02:57 »
Considering 3 fonts at this point:

Font 1

Font 2

Font 3

There's currently 2 font sets I prefer from the three, but I'm not sure which one is the best. If you guys like any of them let me know and I'll consider your opinion :)


I can't wait for these, but as a graphic designer I can tell you I would not buy them if these are the fonts you go with :(

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 16:58:14 »
Considering 3 fonts at this point:

Font 1

Font 2

Font 3

There's currently 2 font sets I prefer from the three, but I'm not sure which one is the best. If you guys like any of them let me know and I'll consider your opinion :)


I can't wait for these, but as a graphic designer I can tell you I would not buy them if these are the fonts you go with :(

The issue is if I do the cut out idea I had in mind (the letters would be cut out of the keys/ part of the molding process) I'd need a stencil font. One that has breaks in it.

Good news is I won't be doing so unless these key caps are wildly popular, the first run if I can make it happen will be blank  :)
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 July 2014, 17:58:06 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 17:14:13 »
Just a bit of warning, the tests I did with flat keys were not favorable. You don't realize how much you subconsciously make use of the concavity of the keys for positional awareness until you start typing on flat keys, then you start making a lot more mistakes. They look cool, though.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 17:32:37 »
Just out of curiosity, why do you want flat keycaps? Is there something specific that you dislike about cylindrical/spherical keycaps? Do you have a special purpose in mind?

For example, stenographic keyboards have somewhat flat keys without much gap between them, because multiple keys need to be pressed at the same time.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 17:56:36 »
Just a bit of warning, the tests I did with flat keys were not favorable. You don't realize how much you subconsciously make use of the concavity of the keys for positional awareness until you start typing on flat keys, then you start making a lot more mistakes. They look cool, though.

My preferred typing surface is completely flat and I've always like the typing experience on 'chiclet' style keyboards. I never like the mushiness and spaced out keys that most chiclet/scissor switch keyboards have. So I figure why not create key caps that have the typing surface and aesthetics of a chiclet/low profile keyboard and go on my favorite cherry switch.


Just out of curiosity, why do you want flat keycaps? Is there something specific that you dislike about cylindrical/spherical keycaps? Do you have a special purpose in mind?

For example, stenographic keyboards have somewhat flat keys without much gap between them, because multiple keys need to be pressed at the same time.

Really it's just comfort and aesthetics, I'm not sure if there's any provable advantage to this type of key cap. All I can really think of is that maybe it's a bit easier to keep clean? smaller gaps between keys and a flat surface being easier to clean. They might be advantageous to games that require keys to be pressed at the same time, and maybe easier to slide your fingers across them.

I don't actually dislike the typical keyboard design, it's just I feel uncomfortable using them compared to my laptop keyboards.
petcock
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 18:03:14 »

I don't really know... I doubt you could really get a patent for this either since it's so basic, but who knows...

I've applied to a government patent assistance program here in the UAE, I'm not sure if this kind of thing is something they'd be interested in but I'll let you guys know what happens. Like I said, I most likely will release the files for everyone to play around with once I can solidify if/when/how I will produce these keys  :)


If these keycaps are OEM height and have crossbars then I will buy a set.

I am currently looking at a rubberdome keyboard in front of me that has flat square/rectangular keycaps but they are obviously not cherry mx.  But I really like them a lot.  The keyboard came free with an Acer computer in 2012.



Can you explain what you mean by crossbar? Do you mean the metal bars that go under the keys? I'm actually not aware of what the standard dimensions of those are (if there are even standard dimensions for them) but I'll definitely look for them or add them if someone can show me where I can find it.
petcock
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 18:53:07 »
I've applied to a government patent assistance program here in the UAE, I'm not sure if this kind of thing is something they'd be interested in but I'll let you guys know what happens. Like I said, I most likely will release the files for everyone to play around with once I can solidify if/when/how I will produce these keys  :)

You want to get a patent on flat keycaps? That doesn't make any sense to me...

There's probably 100 year old prior art on typewriters, or much older if you look at musical instruments. There's really nothing novel about a flat keycap.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 19:20:30 »
You want to get a patent on flat keycaps? That doesn't make any sense to me...

There's probably 100 year old prior art on typewriters, or much older if you look at musical instruments. There's really nothing novel about a flat keycap.

There aren't any flat key cap sets that fit cherry MX switches so I guess that's what's 'novel' about them. I admit I think it's pretty rare that I'll get a patent but why not try if the government has a program that helps you? I'm sure many other much more mundane things have been patented.


Edit: If you're wondering what program I'm talking about it's Takamul by the Abu Dhabi government.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 July 2014, 19:23:53 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline sakai4eva

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 21:39:43 »
Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 15 July 2014, 22:54:19 »
Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

If these use the same widths and lengths as standard keycaps, then it should be completely fine.
I couldn't see the keycaps wiggling around enough to actually make this a huge issue.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline sakai4eva

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 02:30:05 »
Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

If these use the same widths and lengths as standard keycaps, then it should be completely fine.
I couldn't see the keycaps wiggling around enough to actually make this a huge issue.

But wouldn't that defeat OP's purpose of having a seamless set of keys? I guess it will have seams between the keys and dust will still get under the caps.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 04:02:07 »
Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?


They shouldn't, your normal key caps are very close to each other if you look at their bases and they don't have any contact issues. these keycaps make the space between the keys uniform.

If these use the same widths and lengths as standard keycaps, then it should be completely fine.
I couldn't see the keycaps wiggling around enough to actually make this a huge issue.

Yes, you'd need some serious wiggling/loose stems for them to be an issue. At that point I think you'd even have problems with normal keys.

But wouldn't that defeat OP's purpose of having a seamless set of keys? I guess it will have seams between the keys and dust will still get under the caps.

That's not my goal with creating the key caps. It was just a suggestion of what might be one "advantage" of this type of key cap. The general gap between keys would be much smaller, of course you can't stop every single particle from getting in but anything that could get stuck between typical sculpted keys would have a harder time with these caps I think.
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Offline sakai4eva

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 04:13:02 »
Hmmm. I do have some g20 kits with me, and I don't think that it'll be that big of an issue for usage when typing... I guess your idea can work.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 05:14:10 »
DCS caps with a .750" or 19.05mm spacing on the keys will give you .035" between caps.  Not a lot of room.  I couldn't tell you what it is between DSA caps but I know it is a little less.
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 06:09:09 »
DCS caps with a .750" or 19.05mm spacing on the keys will give you .035" between caps.  Not a lot of room.  I couldn't tell you what it is between DSA caps but I know it is a little less.

If you'd all like to download the keys and look at their dimensions/mess around with the models here are the files. There should be 8 keys, let me know if any of the keys from the shapeways image I posted were not included.


I think I'll be making the shapeways order later tonight unless someone wants to do the printing/ testing themselves or knows a cheaper alternative. It will be about 41 dollars shipped to me.

Edit: I can make them available on Shapeways if anyone is interested as well.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 July 2014, 06:16:13 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
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Offline paicrai

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 16 July 2014, 19:19:52 »
*looks at all the faff*... tbh i just like perfect shapes
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Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 17 July 2014, 06:50:35 »

If these keycaps are OEM height and have crossbars then I will buy a set.

I am currently looking at a rubberdome keyboard in front of me that has flat square/rectangular keycaps but they are obviously not cherry mx.  But I really like them a lot.  The keyboard came free with an Acer computer in 2012.



Can you explain what you mean by crossbar? Do you mean the metal bars that go under the keys? I'm actually not aware of what the standard dimensions of those are (if there are even standard dimensions for them) but I'll definitely look for them or add them if someone can show me where I can find it.

When you turn a keycap upside down and look "upskirt" you see little crossbars or "reinforcement bars" on most keycaps.  They are not metal but merely plastic.  Most keycaps are made from plastic molds.  The mold is shaped such as to produce these bars.

I really love flat keycaps. (Okay I also love Spherical keycaps, what can I say, I am a keycap maniac  ;D) The more I think about this the more I am thinking I would like 3 sets of them depending on the price.

However I am a little bit dubious as to whether or not a printer can print keys with sufficient accuracy or not.  I am just back from a 1 year GeekHack vacation.  Are people printing keycaps these days and getting great results now?

Also, will there be a small nub on top of the "home keys" like there is on the F and J keys of a standard QWERTY set?   You could get extra interest by including them as they help people keep their fingers aligned properly without having to look.
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 17 July 2014, 07:44:49 »

When you turn a keycap upside down and look "upskirt" you see little crossbars or "reinforcement bars" on most keycaps.  They are not metal but merely plastic.  Most keycaps are made from plastic molds.  The mold is shaped such as to produce these bars.

Oh, ok I understand. Yeah I'll see what I can do. I always assumed those were part of the molding process so I didn't ask the person who modeled them to add them.

I really love flat keycaps. (Okay I also love Spherical keycaps, what can I say, I am a keycap maniac  ;D) The more I think about this the more I am thinking I would like 3 sets of them depending on the price.

However I am a little bit dubious as to whether or not a printer can print keys with sufficient accuracy or not.  I am just back from a 1 year GeekHack vacation.  Are people printing keycaps these days and getting great results now?

Also, will there be a small nub on top of the "home keys" like there is on the F and J keys of a standard QWERTY set?   You could get extra interest by including them as they help people keep their fingers aligned properly without having to look.

I'm not sure, I haven't ordered the shapeways keys yet so I myself don't have any keys yet. As for the bump, depending on interest I wouldn't mind adding it for another set, but I want my set of keys to be totally flat without any features. I'm not against adding it later though.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 18 July 2014, 11:56:42 »
I will be listing these on shape ways soon. Still trying to find someone to manufacture them as a full set; If anyone has suggestions I'm open to them  :)
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 19 July 2014, 05:58:45 »
Hi all,

I've made all my models available on shapeways here. I think most of the prices are pretty fair, but let me know if there something specific you want and I'll try and work that out.

If anyone has used shapeways before, is there any way to make an order cheaper? If I make a model with every necessary key piece in the model, would it be cheaper than printing out every single piece individually?
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 19 July 2014, 06:38:52 »
Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

I don't know where it was, but there was a commercial water utility company somewhere in Latin America I believe that managed to get proprietary rights to rainwater and all the water found in nature within the country's borders, thereby enforcing them to use - and thus pay for - water exclusively supplied by them, even with law enforcement in place. Luckily, people were brave and started riots and ultimately the government decided to steer away from that company.

So, well, although the DNA in your body is largely patented by medical companies, meaning that theoretically you are partly indebted to those companies from the day someone is born, in this light, patenting a particular keycap design does not seem all that strange to me.
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Offline sakai4eva

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 19 July 2014, 10:16:25 »
Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

I don't know where it was, but there was a commercial water utility company somewhere in Latin America I believe that managed to get proprietary rights to rainwater and all the water found in nature within the country's borders, thereby enforcing them to use - and thus pay for - water exclusively supplied by them, even with law enforcement in place. Luckily, people were brave and started riots and ultimately the government decided to steer away from that company.

So, well, although the DNA in your body is largely patented by medical companies, meaning that theoretically you are partly indebted to those companies from the day someone is born, in this light, patenting a particular keycap design does not seem all that strange to me.

Er.... what?

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 19 July 2014, 10:49:47 »

Er.... what?

I think he meant to quote the person asking if I was really going to try and patent it. :))
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 19 July 2014, 17:16:29 »
If you're interested in this project and have a basic knowledge of CAD or any other modeling software that uses .stl files please let me know; we can get the keys to a pretty reasonable price if we can include all of them in one neat model for shapeways to print. As of now each individual keys has a handling fee of around 1.50+ depending on the material we spend. Making them in one big group would significantly reduce the cost of the process.

If no one can do so I'll go ahead and contact the designer I used on Fiverr before.  :)
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 20 July 2014, 18:15:00 »

Er.... what?

I think he meant to quote the person asking if I was really going to try and patent it. :))

Sorry, wrong quote! That's indeed what I meant.
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Offline QWERTim

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 21 July 2014, 10:05:08 »
Just so you know, the T series we can produce look like this:



They do indeed have vertical sides - not at an angle. The lip, is for use with vandalism keyboards.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 21 July 2014, 11:44:27 »
Just so you know, the T series we can produce look like this:

Show Image


They do indeed have vertical sides - not at an angle. The lip, is for use with vandalism keyboards.

That's good to know Thanks for posting a picture. They're still not what I'm for in terms of size, but it's still interesting to know more about keycaps like that. Do you produce all the other standard sizes?
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 July 2014, 12:01:32 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 07:43:59 »


Making the group file now, the person who I asked to do it asked for way more than I expected so I just figured it out. This is all the non standard keys, I will be adding the 86 1 x 1 keys after this post and uploading to shapeways as soon as I can to see if the price is any different.

Edit: Here are all 104 keys:



Plenty of room for any other odd keys or ideas I come up with.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 July 2014, 08:25:47 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 08:17:12 »
Here is the purchase link from shapeways. I'll keep on pushing and see if I can find a cheaper ways to manufacture these keys. They are a lot more reasonable now though, and I will look into printing out a colored set for my own keyboard.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 July 2014, 08:25:00 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 08:34:32 »
I think we need to see some results first. I don't think anyone quite trusts the quality and accuracy as of this moment.
Get a couple in each size printed and photographed so we can see what we are dealing with.
Quote from: elton5354
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 09:02:24 »
I think we need to see some results first. I don't think anyone quite trusts the quality and accuracy as of this moment.
Get a couple in each size printed and photographed so we can see what we are dealing with.

I'm not telling anyone to order them, simply showing that they are available if you want to make a purchase before I get mine. The dimensions for the keys are available on their pages and were taken from here.

The files are already available as well if you'd like to check their measurements in your own software.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 12:33:17 »
I think I'm going to need to increase the size of the walls of each key, does anyone know any simple ways to do so in Sketch up? They're currently .5 mm in length and the minimum size is .7 mm by shapeways.
petcock
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Offline suka

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 15:03:46 »
Less than 1.0mm wall width will feel flimsy in PA even for something as small as a keycap, 1.5mm is pretty solid. I'd suggest to test a few variations of height, thickness and bevel, these caps won't most likely be satisfying in their current form.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 15:17:13 »
Less than 1.0mm wall width will feel flimsy in PA even for something as small as a keycap, 1.5mm is pretty solid. I'd suggest to test a few variations of height, thickness and bevel, these caps won't most likely be satisfying in their current form.

What do you mean in PA? I'm trying to keep costs below 100 USD for a colored and polished set. Most standard keyboard caps are relatively thin aren't they? I understand it's always going to feel better the thicker the key caps are but they will add significantly to the price.

The ducky keycaps seem to use 1 mm wide walls, according to a friend, so I'll stick with that for now. Keys are being reworked right now and store will be updated soon with the newer models.

Edit: Filco apparently uses a thickness of .7 mm. Cherry even thinner, anyone else have an opinion on thickness of keycaps?
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 July 2014, 15:47:12 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
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Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 16:39:37 »
Less than 1.0mm wall width will feel flimsy in PA even for something as small as a keycap, 1.5mm is pretty solid. I'd suggest to test a few variations of height, thickness and bevel, these caps won't most likely be satisfying in their current form.

What do you mean in PA? I'm trying to keep costs below 100 USD for a colored and polished set. Most standard keyboard caps are relatively thin aren't they? I understand it's always going to feel better the thicker the key caps are but they will add significantly to the price.

The ducky keycaps seem to use 1 mm wide walls, according to a friend, so I'll stick with that for now. Keys are being reworked right now and store will be updated soon with the newer models.

Edit: Filco apparently uses a thickness of .7 mm. Cherry even thinner, anyone else have an opinion on thickness of keycaps?

I think that 1mm thick walls will give us a balance of good price with a good feeling. Not sure if 3D printing has any differences with the rigidity of whatever it makes compared to molds, so I can't make a judgement on what would be the best.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 16:45:32 »

I think that 1mm thick walls will give us a balance of good price with a good feeling. Not sure if 3D printing has any differences with the rigidity of whatever it makes compared to molds, so I can't make a judgement on what would be the best.

I think it just depends on the material. Shapeways uses a Nylon material for their most basic plastics, so if you're familiar with any nylon keycaps (I have heard zowie keyboards use them) then you'll be familiar with it to some degree.
petcock
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Offline suka

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 23 July 2014, 00:50:44 »
PA (= polyamide) is what shapeways offers as a cheap material and all my cases and caps are made of. All I am saying is you should get some parts built yourself in different sizes before talking others into ordering.
And from personal experience: flat caps may look nice but don't work at all with row staggered layouts,  especially when designed like yours.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 23 July 2014, 05:43:51 »
Updated models coming in a bit! .7 mm wall thickness and the spacebar may be 1 mm to prevent any warping.
petcock
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 23 July 2014, 12:49:28 »
The keys have been reuploaded. I decided to make to the space bar with a wall thickness of 1 mm to help maintain the shape in printing and polishing such a large key.

Unfortunately the price of the keys has significantly increased because of the changes so they may end up costing 125 not including shipping (at least from shapeways) once everything is done.

Having some weird problem with the shapeways site so I'll let you guys know when they're available.

Edit: Found a website called 3D Hubs which points me to some reasonably priced 3D printers locally, so I may actually be able to get them for much cheaper here in Dubai.  :-\ So I'll be looking into that while my uploads are fixed on shapeways.
« Last Edit: Wed, 23 July 2014, 13:45:05 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (advice/ help welcome)
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 06:57:05 »
I received my keyboard and all the measurements seem to be correct. I will be ordering the keys in the next few days, if you'd like to see me choose a specific color my thoughts are either Red or White with blue a distant third. Let me know what you guys would like me to pick.



Picture from this album by who I assume is RaVNzCRoFT.



petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
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Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 07:33:30 »
Personally, I would just want to go with whatever is closest to white as possible.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 07:38:30 »
Personally, I would just want to go with whatever is closest to white as possible.

Here's an image of their white and polished:

petcock
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Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 08:01:33 »
Oh, if there are any key sets you'd like to see (87, modifiers, etc) I can do that so just let me know. I know not everyone will want a full 104 key set.
petcock
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Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 08:16:05 »
Oh, if there are any key sets you'd like to see (87, modifiers, etc) I can do that so just let me know. I know not everyone will want a full 104 key set.

Most people here I don't think use full keyboards as their daily drivers, I think that giving us an 87 key pack would be the most beneficial for everyone. Also, if you want to add modifiers, there are a few people floating around who would need tsangan sets and 7x spacebars. You could possibly do an oddpack that includes all the weird keys that some people may need.
Quote from: elton5354
I don't need anymore keyboards

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 19:42:15 »
Oh, if there are any key sets you'd like to see (87, modifiers, etc) I can do that so just let me know. I know not everyone will want a full 104 key set.

Most people here I don't think use full keyboards as their daily drivers, I think that giving us an 87 key pack would be the most beneficial for everyone. Also, if you want to add modifiers, there are a few people floating around who would need tsangan sets and 7x spacebars. You could possibly do an oddpack that includes all the weird keys that some people may need.

Sure that makes sense.

As for odd keys/non-ansi keys, if there are any that people want in particular just send me the standard measurements of the base of the key and stem locations and I can get the rest sorted out if there is enough demand for them.

petcock
[pet-kok] 
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Offline QWERTim

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #64 on: Sun, 27 July 2014, 09:38:09 »
Just a heads up, but the detailed frost material will yellow over time, so I'd advise not to use that unless you are just testing the strength or the level of detail you can achieve.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 27 July 2014, 12:09:48 »
Just a heads up, but the detailed frost material will yellow over time, so I'd advise not to use that unless you are just testing the strength or the level of detail you can achieve.

Thanks for the tip, I plan to buy the white flexible plastic, probably dyed so that shouldn't be as big an issue.
petcock
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Offline Lastpilot

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:38:15 »
Just thought you might be interested in this blog post since it shows a new keyboard with flat keys: http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-4464.html

The official manufacturer site is rapoo.com
http://www.rapoo.com/ProductShow.aspx?PType=8fQpYH%2b%2b7i8%3d&PID=uCupl3PJuVw%3d

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #67 on: Mon, 28 July 2014, 16:42:51 »
Just thought you might be interested in this blog post since it shows a new keyboard with flat keys: http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-4464.html

The official manufacturer site is rapoo.com
http://www.rapoo.com/ProductShow.aspx?PType=8fQpYH%2b%2b7i8%3d&PID=uCupl3PJuVw%3d

I considered buying this when I was looking at keyboards because of that feature. However the cheaper price and cherry MX switches of my Morphling KB-87 won out.'

Wish I could own both :(
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline Lastpilot

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 28 July 2014, 16:44:49 »
Ah, okay cool, glad you already know of it :] I only know about it because I was looking for square keys myself a while back, and these were the only ones I could find...So I am very excited about how your project turns out!

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 28 July 2014, 16:56:45 »
Ah, okay cool, glad you already know of it :] I only know about it because I was looking for square keys myself a while back, and these were the only ones I could find...So I am very excited about how your project turns out!

I will be ordering them as soon as I can get my passport back (my employer is making my work Visa) and refill my prepaid credit card since shapeways won't take an out of country form of payment...  So hopefully in the next few days I can move on to the testing stage.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 01 August 2014, 12:01:12 »
While the frosted might yellow over time iirc some people who have had shapeways make caps in the past have mentioned fit issues with the stems using other plastics due to lack of achievable tolerances with those plastics.  The plastic being used actually has a fairly large impact on the tolerances that can be held and the detail that can be achieved.  This fit issue can be alleviated with some plastic from a sandwich baggie as a shim between the stem of the cap and the stem of the switch.  Though if the fit is to tight that won't help.

The acceptable tolerance for the stem on the cap between not being able to go on the switch and falling off is pretty small.  I don't recall hearing any specific numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if it is less than .005".
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #71 on: Tue, 12 August 2014, 08:15:39 »
Just a status update for anyone following this so you don't think I've abandoned the project.

I don't have the money to order a full set of keys to test them out at the moment (issues with work) so I'm waiting on that. Hope I can start working soon so I can get this project rolling again.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline nameistaken1

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 15 August 2014, 22:14:45 »
I came across a pretty interesting keyboard on reddit today. Check it out.

Be sure to click to view the full album on the bottom, and look at the last 2-3 pictures. Thought you might be interested in comparing the design of the keycaps.

Offline RED-404

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Offline nameistaken1

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #74 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 00:39:06 »
I wonder if the lip on the bottom of the keycaps is a structural thing (that maybe allows them to use thinner material), or just an artifact from the mold.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 16 August 2014, 06:48:06 »
I came across a pretty interesting keyboard on reddit today. Check it out.

Be sure to click to view the full album on the bottom, and look at the last 2-3 pictures. Thought you might be interested in comparing the design of the keycaps.
I love those keycaps!
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline Oobly

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Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 03:27:52 »
y, Kaihua / Kailh PG1511 switches... no thanks. Interesting caps, though.
Have you tried those switches?

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 04:09:19 »
I'm sure the switches aren't that bad, especially for something like a media keyboard which the rapoo KX is intended to be I think. The keycaps are also held in the metal faceplate, so there's no room for them to wiggle and case stress to the stems. That keyboard isn't one you're going to be swapping caps off all the time with.

 I wanted to get the keyboard but the touch keys were a no go for me. Really great design other than that.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 04:21:28 »
y, Kaihua / Kailh PG1511 switches... no thanks. Interesting caps, though.
Have you tried those switches?

I don't actually really care if the switches are really any good or not. I just don't want to support Kailh as a company. I don't think they have been ethical in their blatant copying of Cherry's product and now they are taking over market share from Cherry. I know Cherry is partly to blame by not having better supply and pricing to some board makers, but I still don't want to support Kailh.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 04:52:44 »

I don't actually really care if the switches are really any good or not. I just don't want to support Kailh as a company. I don't think they have been ethical in their blatant copying of Cherry's product and now they are taking over market share from Cherry. I know Cherry is partly to blame by not having better supply and pricing to some board makers, but I still don't want to support Kailh.

The patent expired. I know there were companies copying Cherry MX switches before that happened, there's nothing morally questionable about using things that have fallen out of patent, copyright, etc.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 05:35:14 »

I don't actually really care if the switches are really any good or not. I just don't want to support Kailh as a company. I don't think they have been ethical in their blatant copying of Cherry's product and now they are taking over market share from Cherry. I know Cherry is partly to blame by not having better supply and pricing to some board makers, but I still don't want to support Kailh.

The patent expired. I know there were companies copying Cherry MX switches before that happened, there's nothing morally questionable about using things that have fallen out of patent, copyright, etc.

That's debatable...

"Hmmm this company has been making these switches for many years and people are still buying them. Let's make some exactly the same, even using the same colours so we can fool people into thinking they're the same and make us some money! Oh yeah..."

"Oh hey, there's this company that makes poor quality keyboards and sells them to unsuspecting gamers through marketing BS... Let's partner with them to make an 'improved' version of our switch which is actually just the same as before so we can take advantage of their BS marketing and make even MORE money... Oh yeah!"

I mean if you're developing a new mechanical switch why make it exactly the same as the competition unless it's to get overflow sales through customer ignorance.

I admit that the lack of supply from Cherry has helped Kaihua's case, but it's still not what I would consider "ethical", just because it's "legal".
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 14:06:28 »
If people did not copy other people's good ideas then we would still be living in trees.  We would not have even progressed to living in caves.  And only 1 person would have fire, me.  Everyone else would be all "I'm not copying his fire invention because that would be morally wrong and unethical.  I would rather freeze to death and eat spoiled raw meat than copy his wonderful Fire invention."
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 18 August 2014, 19:51:14 »
That's debatable...

"Hmmm this company has been making these switches for many years and people are still buying them. Let's make some exactly the same, even using the same colours so we can fool people into thinking they're the same and make us some money! Oh yeah..."

"Oh hey, there's this company that makes poor quality keyboards and sells them to unsuspecting gamers through marketing BS... Let's partner with them to make an 'improved' version of our switch which is actually just the same as before so we can take advantage of their BS marketing and make even MORE money... Oh yeah!"

I mean if you're developing a new mechanical switch why make it exactly the same as the competition unless it's to get overflow sales through customer ignorance.

I admit that the lack of supply from Cherry has helped Kaihua's case, but it's still not what I would consider "ethical", just because it's "legal".
Have you ever interacted directly with Kaihua? You seem to have inferred quite a bit about their motivations, but I’m not sure your inferences are justified.

Note that Cherry MX switches have been almost impossible for some keyboard vendors to acquire at reasonable prices in the last few years, because Cherry either can’t keep up with demand or has a broken distribution system. (To the point that some companies were buying up old Cherry keyboards and desoldering all the switches to put in their own keyboards.)

From the perspective of a mechanical keyboard vendor, would you rather use an alternative source of switches, or just give up altogether on making your product?

It seems to me that Cherry has entirely failed to innovate on keyboard switches in the past 20 years, and their (IMO somewhat mediocre product) only hangs on because all the other keyswitch vendors got entirely out of the business when rubber domes took over. Cherry itself mostly markets rubber dome and scissor switch keyboards, with mechanical keyboards as an afterthought. The common prices of MX switches are absurdly high relative to production costs (though I hear some chinese OEMs can get Cherry switches for much cheaper, <20 cents/switch).

I personally think it’s great that Kaihua is breathing some new life into a stale market, and even trying to make some tweaks to improve the design. I wish they’d picked a better source switch (like SMK switches or Hi-Tek “space invaders” maybe), but I’ll take what we can get. Maybe some competition will force Cherry to improve their game.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #84 on: Tue, 19 August 2014, 02:30:22 »
That's debatable...

"Hmmm this company has been making these switches for many years and people are still buying them. Let's make some exactly the same, even using the same colours so we can fool people into thinking they're the same and make us some money! Oh yeah..."

"Oh hey, there's this company that makes poor quality keyboards and sells them to unsuspecting gamers through marketing BS... Let's partner with them to make an 'improved' version of our switch which is actually just the same as before so we can take advantage of their BS marketing and make even MORE money... Oh yeah!"

I mean if you're developing a new mechanical switch why make it exactly the same as the competition unless it's to get overflow sales through customer ignorance.

I admit that the lack of supply from Cherry has helped Kaihua's case, but it's still not what I would consider "ethical", just because it's "legal".
Have you ever interacted directly with Kaihua? You seem to have inferred quite a bit about their motivations, but I’m not sure your inferences are justified.

Note that Cherry MX switches have been almost impossible for some keyboard vendors to acquire at reasonable prices in the last few years, because Cherry either can’t keep up with demand or has a broken distribution system. (To the point that some companies were buying up old Cherry keyboards and desoldering all the switches to put in their own keyboards.)

From the perspective of a mechanical keyboard vendor, would you rather use an alternative source of switches, or just give up altogether on making your product?

It seems to me that Cherry has entirely failed to innovate on keyboard switches in the past 20 years, and their (IMO somewhat mediocre product) only hangs on because all the other keyswitch vendors got entirely out of the business when rubber domes took over. Cherry itself mostly markets rubber dome and scissor switch keyboards, with mechanical keyboards as an afterthought. The common prices of MX switches are absurdly high relative to production costs (though I hear some chinese OEMs can get Cherry switches for much cheaper, <20 cents/switch).

I personally think it’s great that Kaihua is breathing some new life into a stale market, and even trying to make some tweaks to improve the design. I wish they’d picked a better source switch (like SMK switches or Hi-Tek “space invaders” maybe), but I’ll take what we can get. Maybe some competition will force Cherry to improve their game.

Okay, point taken... I guess I should be a little slower to make judgements.

If they are smoother than the latest MX switches, I could actually see that as a useful "innovation". It takes a frustratingly long time to wear in new MX switches. It may just be that the "Razer" orange switches are Browns done properly (slightly larger bump) and apparently they Greens don't feel quite as wobbly as MX Blues...

If they wanted to improve their brand perception, they really should have chosen a different keyboard manufacturer to partner with, though.

It is possible to buy bulk orders of MX switches at low prices, but it seems the supply really is erratic at best.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #85 on: Fri, 22 August 2014, 09:55:53 »
Just a somewhat unrelated update: I contacted Rapoo and they do not sell the keycaps available on their KX keyboard.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #86 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 08:59:21 »
Small update: Because Shapeways only sells to countries your credit card's payment address is in, I haven't been able to make the purchase. But I've been able to get one and will be making the purchase soon!

I am also trying to contact a local 3D printer to see if he is still interested, but I think I will be going with shapeways.
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 08:23:04 »
Another roadbump,  Shapeways made this project extremely costly with their new pricing. Rather than the project costing about 100 USD for all 104 keys it is now about 260.

Time to look for another manufacturer :(
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline vvp

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 12:08:15 »
Interesting. I made some tests with a keywell part of my Katy keyboard and the new process makes it a bit cheaper. The price went down from $92 to $62 (notice this is only for a part of the full case).
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/c-64-keyboard-reboot-t8851-30.html#p186407

I would like to know how they compute the price.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 10 October 2014, 14:34:14 »
Interesting. I made some tests with a keywell part of my Katy keyboard and the new process makes it a bit cheaper. The price went down from $92 to $62 (notice this is only for a part of the full case).
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/c-64-keyboard-reboot-t8851-30.html#p186407

I would like to know how they compute the price.

If you can find their blog there is a post about it. Rather than charge for handling of a project, they now charge for handling of a piece. If there are any free floating pieces within your project, you will be charged for each individual piece.

Some people are experimenting with cost saving by using cages and shapeways has said they are experimenting with an auto sprueing program, but that really defeats the entire purpose of 3D printing and makes it no longer useful for this project. Their new policy is reward those who use more space, rather than those who create 'airy' or 'whispy' designs that took advantage of their old calculations. 

All the explanations they gave in the forum post regarding the price hike were mostly non-answers and disregard for customer concerns. On top of the way they handle their payments, I won't be using shapeways in the future and will pick up my own printer soon.

I met someone who may be able to help me with the project, so I will be attempting to get some of them printed out soon although this will be through a extruder 3d printer. Hopefully the tolerances are reasonable.

« Last Edit: Fri, 10 October 2014, 14:38:22 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline P3TC0CK

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #90 on: Wed, 19 April 2017, 23:18:07 »
Sorry for the necro-bump, but I thought I'd give an update for anyone interested in flat key caps! I was able to have some printed and the concept more or less turned out how I wanted it too.

I'm in the process of building my own 3D printer so hopefully I'll be able to print a whole set of these at some point. I'll try to get a picture of them posted on here.

Picture:

« Last Edit: Wed, 19 April 2017, 23:23:50 by P3TC0CK »
petcock
[pet-kok] 
noun
1. a small valve or faucet, as for draining off excess or waste material from the cylinder of a steam engine or an internal-combustion engine.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #91 on: Sat, 29 April 2017, 16:38:55 »
Sorry for the necro-bump, but I thought I'd give an update for anyone interested in flat key caps! I was able to have some printed and the concept more or less turned out how I wanted it too.

I'm in the process of building my own 3D printer so hopefully I'll be able to print a whole set of these at some point. I'll try to get a picture of them posted on here.

Picture:

Show Image


That looks promising. How is the consistency for the stem mounts across the keys? Can you get it with low variation?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)
« Reply #92 on: Sat, 04 November 2017, 15:15:23 »
Bumping this one as I am in need of exactly this sort of solution.
Working on a few stenography keyboard prototypes and I need cherry mx keycaps with exactly this profile.

The spacing needs to be tighter than is common in qwerty keyboards as steno typists chord and type on the cracks.

Additionally I am prototyping with 16mm switch spacing.

Did you put your design model in to open source / are they available somewhere that I can download and modify them to my need?

Thanks,
T.

I've been looking for this kind of starting point for a few months and haven't felt like starting from scratch.
Keyboard error F1 to continue.

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