Teensy2.0 & a Pingmaster

[just_add_coffee]

So I've got one of these ...


Using this ...

... I wired up the Teensy2.0 ...


Then using the Teensy Loader ...

... I flashed Soarer_at2usb_v1.12_atmega32u4, pressed the button on the Teensy card, and got "Reboot OK" from the loader.

But the Pingmaster is still unresponsive.  I've rechecked my wiring and soldering.  PJRC's hid_listen.exe isn't working.  Yesterday, I tried using Pro-Micro, but I think I might've destroyed the card by trying to connect GND and RST with a wire and accidentally touching a component with  the wire.  Whatever the cause, I ceased being able to get the Pro-Micro to go into the bootloader.

What else can I possibly do to get this board working?  I've been obsessed with trying to learn to refurbish these old boards and learning to solder, bought about $300 worth of soldering and desoldering supplies, and I haven't slept for more than 48 hours.  Oh, and I destroyed the trace on a previous Pingmaster trying to get a 40-pin chip off it.

Please help.

[Tactile]

In the Soarer's V1.0 package should be a "tools" folder. In there should be "scinfo.exe". With your Teensy flashed and connected you can run  "scinfo" in a terminal and get the info from the Soarer's. If this works your Soarer's and flashing are working and the problem must be in the hardware or wiring.

[just_add_coffee]

When I open PowerShell and cd into tools, start scinfo causes a terminal window to briefly appear and disappear.  What am I doing wrong?

[Tactile]

When I open PowerShell and cd into tools, start scinfo causes a terminal window to briefly appear and disappear.  What am I doing wrong?

As you've done, open PowerShell, cd into tools, then type "scinfo" in PowerShell.

[Tactile]

Okay, I'm not a PowerShell user. Try typing ".\scinfo"

[just_add_coffee]

I rectified that sleep thing I mentioned earlier.  Here's scinfo ...



That's good, right?  I haven't fried another card?

[Tactile]

Your Soarer's is fine. It's working and communicating with the computer over USB.

The next step would be to:

Unplug the USB from the Soarer's

Fire up HID_LISTEN in a terminal and just let it sit as you:

Plug the USB cable into the Soarer's

In the terminal you should get some info from the Soarer's converter as it boots & initially connects. Let's see what that does.

[just_add_coffee]

Will do.

Now that I'm starting to understand stuff a little ...

[just_add_coffee]

Nothing seems to be happening.  Is that a clue?

And when I run .\scaswr test.sc ...


Still no signs of life from the keyboard.

[Tactile]

Here's what I was expecting. This is my Soarer's running in an IBM Model F 122 when I plug in the USB cable:

[Tactile]

It's those last three lines we're interested in.

Keyboard ID: interesting but not hugely important
Code Set: Important info
Mode: Important info

[just_add_coffee]

A Model F 122???  I can see that you're a man of taste and distinction!   

One of my worries is that I've damaged a trace when removing the chip and that one or more of my solders is connected to nothing.  With a 2X magnifying glass, I can't see any issues.

Any tips for diagnosing that?  And, worst case, is it possible to remove some of this green stuff (solder mask?) and to solder directly into the trace.  I haven't seen a YouTube tutorial that covers that yet.

[Tactile]

A Model F 122???  I can see that you're a man of taste and distinction!   

One of my worries is that I've damaged a trace when removing the chip and that one or more of my solders is connected to nothing.  With a 2X magnifying glass, I can't see any issues.

Any tips for diagnosing that?  And, worst case, is it possible to remove some of this green stuff (solder mask?) and to solder directly into the trace.  I haven't seen a YouTube tutorial that covers that yet.

You're working with a keyboard I'm not at all familiar with but I think you're right in checking the wiring and connections. I think that's where the problem is. You can scrape the varnish with a razor blade to get to the trace. 

[Tactile]

And yes, these F122 keyboards are nice to use after you reinforce the table legs so they can take the weight.

[just_add_coffee]

And yes, these F122 keyboards are nice to use after you reinforce the table legs so they can take the weight.

That's why I only buy tables that I sit on first.  You can never be too sure! 

The board that I'm typing on now is an F107 (in one of the pics posted above) that I got from Orihalcon a while back.  It's entire case is metal and might weigh almost as much as an F122.

You can scrape the varnish with a razor blade to get to the trace.

Just to make sure I understand things ... Scrape the varnish off (carefully), apply flux, and solder the wire to the trace?

[Tactile]

Just to make sure I understand things ... Scrape the varnish off (carefully), apply flux, and solder the wire to the trace?

Yep. Tin both the wire and the trace and lay about 1/4 inch (or about 5-7 millimeters, depending on your favorite unit of measurement) of the tinned wire flat on the trace. You can get a surprisingly strong connection like this. Easy or hard depends on the trace width and the proximity of the trace next to it.

[just_add_coffee]

Looks like I have some work to do.  I'll check back in when I'm done.

And thank you for your help!  If you're ever up here in Seattle or I'm in Portland, you're not buying your own beer while I'm around!

[Tactile]

In a nutshell: I think the Soarer's is working fine but it's not seeing a keyboard. That's why you see nothing in HID listen when you connect the USB. As I said, I don't know anything about those keyboards so I'll just bow out and maybe someone else can take over. My conversions have all been PS/2 and terminal boards. It's just a simple 4 wire connection for those, and even I can count to four.

[just_add_coffee]

... even I can count to four.

I can count to 20 ... 21 if I can take my clothes off.

(Sorry about that.)

[a-c]

Are you trying to use Soarer's converter to replace the controller? It's meant to work with the existing controller and convert the PS/2 signals to USB HID.

[Tactile]

Are you trying to use Soarer's converter to replace the controller? It's meant to work with the existing controller and convert the PS/2 signals to USB HID.

Not in this case. Check out this post for more info.

[just_add_coffee]

Are you trying to use Soarer's converter to replace the controller? It's meant to work with the existing controller and convert the PS/2 signals to USB HID.

I used to think the same thing.  I purchased an already converted Model F AT and it didn't need the controller ripped out.  And most of the instructions and tutorials for converting old keyboards talk about identifying which prongs on the plug go to what.

But yeah.  Why replacing the controller in this particular board is required ... I haven't the foggiest.

[a-c]

Are you trying to use Soarer's converter to replace the controller? It's meant to work with the existing controller and convert the PS/2 signals to USB HID.

Not in this case. Check out this post for more info.

But he's flashing the hex file for Soarer's Converter, not Soarer's Controller.

[a-c]

Are you trying to use Soarer's converter to replace the controller? It's meant to work with the existing controller and convert the PS/2 signals to USB HID.

I used to think the same thing.  I purchased an already converted Model F AT and it didn't need the controller ripped out.  And most of the instructions and tutorials for converting old keyboards talk about identifying which prongs on the plug go to what.

But yeah.  Why replacing the controller in this particular board is required ... I haven't the foggiest.

I think you want to flash the file for Soarer's Controller instead. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50437.msg1100589#msg1100589

[Tactile]

Are you trying to use Soarer's converter to replace the controller? It's meant to work with the existing controller and convert the PS/2 signals to USB HID.

Not in this case. Check out this post for more info.

But he's flashing the hex file for Soarer's Converter, not Soarer's Controller.

Ahh.. Well, I'm happy someone showed up who knows what they're doing. Thanks for the input, I've learned something today.

[just_add_coffee]

I'm getting confused by definitions here.  But before we get to that, here's what I've done:

1)  Removed the big chip that looks like the black and white diagram in the pic that I posted previously.

2)  Using that same diagram, I wired pins from the Teensy2.0 to the corresponding pins on the old chip's footprint.

3)  Dragged and dropped Soarer_Controller_v1.20_beta4_atmega32u4.hex into the Teensy gui, and pressed the button on the Teensy2.0.

4)  In the terminal, cd'ed into Soarer_Controller_v1.20_beta4\tools\Soarer_sctools_v1.20_beta4_win32, pasted 6112884.sc in the directory, and ran ./scaswr 6112884.sc.

Current status: After reheating my solder points for the wires on the old chip's footprint and plugging back in, I am getting output from the keyboard.  I don't understand the layout yet and the bottom "z" row doesn't seem to work, but "a" outputted "a," "s" cranked out "s," etc.  Progress!!!

(Did I mention that this is a really nice typing keyboard?  I wish it was clicky, but these Alps switches with a short travel distance and thick keycaps ... I'm tempted to buy a couple of these and try to put the switches into a custom Ergodox.)

I have since desoldered the wires going into the old chip's footprint, and will do a better job this time around.  And I need to learn the .sc file language, which means studying the docs.

I had initially set out to do this with a Pro-Micro, but I think using a Teensy2.0 is a far better choice, especially for novices like myself.  The Teensy gui (familiar to Ergodoxians like myself), the button as opposed to trying to short GND and RST, supporting PJRC's good work, assembled in America ... IMHO, those are worth the $10 extra.

Now regarding definitions ...

What constitutes "flashing?"  Is it what I did with the Teensy gui, what I did with the .sc file in the terminal, or both? 

What is the difference between a "Soarer's Converter" and a "Soarer's Controller?"  Is the difference related to why I had to remove the IC chip?

I'd also still like to know why installing the Teensy2.0 to the red, white, yellow, and black wires pictured here ...

... wouldn't work.

[dorkvader]

I'm getting confused by definitions here.  But before we get to that, here's what I've done:

1)  Removed the big chip that looks like the black and white diagram in the pic that I posted previously.

2)  Using that same diagram, I wired pins from the Teensy2.0 to the corresponding pins on the old chip's footprint.

3)  Dragged and dropped Soarer_Controller_v1.20_beta4_atmega32u4.hex into the Teensy gui, and pressed the button on the Teensy2.0.

4)  In the terminal, cd'ed into Soarer_Controller_v1.20_beta4\tools\Soarer_sctools_v1.20_beta4_win32, pasted 6112884.sc in the directory, and ran ./scaswr 6112884.sc.

Current status: After reheating my solder points for the wires on the old chip's footprint and plugging back in, I am getting output from the keyboard.  I don't understand the layout yet and the bottom "z" row doesn't seem to work, but "a" outputted "a," "s" cranked out "s," etc.  Progress!!!

(Did I mention that this is a really nice typing keyboard?  I wish it was clicky, but these Alps switches with a short travel distance and thick keycaps ... I'm tempted to buy a couple of these and try to put the switches into a custom Ergodox.)

I have since desoldered the wires going into the old chip's footprint, and will do a better job this time around.  And I need to learn the .sc file language, which means studying the docs.

I had initially set out to do this with a Pro-Micro, but I think using a Teensy2.0 is a far better choice, especially for novices like myself.  The Teensy gui (familiar to Ergodoxians like myself), the button as opposed to trying to short GND and RST, supporting PJRC's good work, assembled in America ... IMHO, those are worth the $10 extra.

Now regarding definitions ...

What constitutes "flashing?"  Is it what I did with the Teensy gui, what I did with the .sc file in the terminal, or both? 

What is the difference between a "Soarer's Converter" and a "Soarer's Controller?"  Is the difference related to why I had to remove the IC chip?

I'd also still like to know why installing the Teensy2.0 to the red, white, yellow, and black wires pictured here ...

Show Image

... wouldn't work.

What a great keyboard indeed! I ended up cutting the tenkey off mine but I love it. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85806.msg2302188#msg2302188
I logged into GH today so I figured I'd answer some posts.

1. so this keyboard has 2 chips. One is the controller, which doesn't have enough pins (You removed that) and the other drives all the columns (that stays in place) The soarer controller has capabilities for muxstrobes, which is what it uses here (hence the complicated .sc file!) but the columns go right to the controller (pretty sure, haven't looked recently)

Given your issue, I would continuity test between that row and your teensy. Might need to resolder it or wire it directly to a switch.

"flashing" is usually putting firmware on the chip, with the teensy.exe or similar, Soarer firmware stores its KB config file so it does not have to be flashed with new firmware every time. In the old days you would get some UV and literally flash the firmware off the EPROM, but then they made EEPORMS that were "flashable" electronically, and now you have this. Most firmwares require you to flash every time you change layouts, so it's become common parlance to say that whenever you are reprogramming it.

Soarer converter converts one keyboard protocol to another. For example PS/2 to USB. The KB still ahs its own controller. This came out a while ago and had many updates
Soraer converter reads the raw KB matrix and acts as the controller of the Keyboard. This is what we have here. Soarer released this towards the end, and it's much less common, especially now that hasu's firmware and others have better support than they did back in the day.

Soooo. I'm pretty sure these use the same protocol as the 4704 banking model F "kishsaver" or whatever they're calling them nowadays, I *think* but i'm not sure that Hasu might have a converter around that will convert them. If that exists then you can plug the teensy into that header and go for it.

Hope this helps,

Cheers!

edit: one more thing: putting these switches into an ergodox would be a difficult undertaking since they aren't the normal ALPS they would require you to custom-make a plate and a custom PCB too (or direct wire). it would be awesome though.

Would you say these switches are linear? to me they are tactile, like browns but less, but they are often called linear tee mount alps.

[just_add_coffee]

Would you say these switches are linear? to me they are tactile, like browns but less, but they are often called linear tee mount alps.

I asked the missus to come in and test the keys out and she couldn't detect a bump either.  Is it possible that there were both tactile and linear switches available?  The only information that I've found regarding these boards have been from others who have converted them to USB.

Awesome work on your board!  It's one thing to take vintage stuff and get it to work on a modern computer; it's another to do that AND make something that conforms to your specifications.  True hackery!

And regarding the Ergodox with these switches ... I've gotta learn how to design a plate and also learn where to get it made.  I haven't drawn it out yet, but what I would ultimately like to do is build a "Batwing" one-piece Ergodox ...



... with the space in the middle large-enough to accommodate a CST2545-5W trackball, and just enough tenting to make accessing the top of the trackball with the thumb and index finger easy.  And each "wing" would have a 4x5 group of buttons extending off the ends.

Designing the metal plate, where to get it done, handwiring, 3D printing ... these aren't skills that I have yet.  But a month ago, I didn't know how to solder or restore one of these old boards.  So onwards and upwards!

[dorkvader]

Would you say these switches are linear? to me they are tactile, like browns but less, but they are often called linear tee mount alps.

I asked the missus to come in and test the keys out and she couldn't detect a bump either.  Is it possible that there were both tactile and linear switches available?  The only information that I've found regarding these boards have been from others who have converted them to USB.

I don't think so , I have had two of the pingmaster keyboards (I'm glad that name finally took off over pingsaver because I popularized it) as well as an alps board for the kiibohd project, and a few M0110, and they all feel slightly tactile to me. I think it's me just feeling the actuation point. I cant really do blind testing because I can tell the keycaps. Still it's very interesting that we get a range of responses here.

Awesome work on your board!  It's one thing to take vintage stuff and get it to work on a modern computer; it's another to do that AND make something that conforms to your specifications.  True hackery!

And regarding the Ergodox with these switches ... I've gotta learn how to design a plate and also learn where to get it made.  I haven't drawn it out yet, but what I would ultimately like to do is build a "Batwing" one-piece Ergodox ...

Show Image

... with the space in the middle large-enough to accommodate a CST2545-5W trackball, and just enough tenting to make accessing the top of the trackball with the thumb and index finger easy.  And each "wing" would have a 4x5 group of buttons extending off the ends.

Designing the metal plate, where to get it done, handwiring, 3D printing ... these aren't skills that I have yet.  But a month ago, I didn't know how to solder or restore one of these old boards.  So onwards and upwards!

Yes a true project indeed! Still, that's what GH is all about. I admire your willingness to learn. Fortunately these switches are really easy to design a plate for: the cutouts are square and the edges can have a pretty wide bend radius. With solidworks you could make one and linear pattern it across and call it a day. Autodesk is a little harder but still easy. Getting the tenting done is actually quite a challenge, not sure the best way to accomplish that will be. for me the hardest part is always the design. what to do and how to do it. once you know that then the execution, while still hard, is at least straightforward. Look at kurplop's efforts and obra as well, their amazing designs are all the product of multiple iterations and improvements.

I checked and you can put the kb controller back and just convert the keycodes with a hasu, but you already knew that
Cheers,

[just_add_coffee]

Look at kurplop's efforts and obra as well, their amazing designs are all the product of multiple iterations and improvements.

My idea was heavily inspired by kurplop, but mixed with a healthy dose of Haven't a clue what I'm doing.

I checked and you can put the kb controller back and just convert the keycodes with a hasu, but you already knew that

I had forgotten the top of that thread.  At the time, I had written off Hasu and was following instructions that called for removing the controller.

I've got two more "Pingmasters" on the way, and I would like to convert those to USB without ripping out the controller.

Speaking of which, I don't think this keyboard is nearly as pingy as any of my un-floss-modded Model Fs.

[just_add_coffee]

__red__ and I were able to get our Pingmasters pinging ...
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/converting-an-ibm-pingmaster-t16109-30.html#wrapper
... Solder four wires, plug in to the computer, and flash the .hex.  No need to remove the IC, which was my problem because I kept tearing the traces getting it out.

[SpAmRaY]

__red__ and I were able to get our Pingmasters pinging ...
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/converting-an-ibm-pingmaster-t16109-30.html#wrapper
... Solder four wires, plug in to the computer, and flash the .hex.  No need to remove the IC, which was my problem because I kept tearing the traces getting it out.

Thanks for sharing. I need to do this mod.

[OldIsNew]

I`ve posted on deskthority too but wanted to add to the thread here too! just_add_coffee and _red_ have done very nice work - sorry if I left anyone else out - Typing this on my pingmaster and while it appears still  a few bugs to work out,  overall works quite nicely! You guys have made it easy too which is a big plus. Great job!