Author Topic: [Closed/Postponed] Starcraft 2 League Keycap Set  (Read 53736 times)

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Offline hazeluff

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[Closed/Postponed] Starcraft 2 League Keycap Set
« Reply #250 on: Thu, 12 January 2012, 11:42:14 »
Quote from: NguyenAdam;488746
We should get some more number row keys instead of functions. :P

I'm pretty sure that the ESC row is the number row.
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Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #251 on: Thu, 12 January 2012, 16:35:54 »
Yeah the top two rows are the same.

Offline NguyenAdam

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« Reply #252 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 00:40:14 »
Thats weird. Everytime I tried to fit it on my Das, it wouldn't fit. At least it fits on my Filco.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 January 2012, 08:00:21 by NguyenAdam »

Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #253 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 02:07:08 »
They are the same profile on most boars. It might be your das.
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Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #254 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 02:09:04 »
What doesn't fit about it? The profile is lower than normal, everyone should know that by now.

Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #255 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 02:12:01 »
Yeah and that SP have lower profile than filcos. Its quite obviose ob my filco.
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Offline baldgye

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« Reply #256 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 05:35:02 »
I'm really interested in getting some of those :) might help motivate me to play 1v1 ladder more if I can see my league icon looking at me all day lol

Offline NguyenAdam

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« Reply #257 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 08:01:22 »
I tried to see if the F1 key would fit on the number row just to see if the keys were the same size. It ended being way too high or low. I forgot because I don't have the keyboard anymore.

Offline -SkiLLs-

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« Reply #258 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 09:40:19 »
i'm interested too depending on the price.

Offline Changdrew

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« Reply #259 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 03:30:39 »
Definitely interested.
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Offline sawedust

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« Reply #260 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 05:42:01 »
Would love to have a set of these to go along with my SCII race keycaps!  Maybe more, if my friends want in :)
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Offline rhizo

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« Reply #261 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 10:34:13 »
ill go for a set! :)

Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #262 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 12:50:27 »
Quote from: NguyenAdam;489421
I tried to see if the F1 key would fit on the number row just to see if the keys were the same size. It ended being way too high or low. I forgot because I don't have the keyboard anymore.

Yeah that's definitely something specific to your keyboard then, since I just checked mine and the Esc key and the 1 key are absolutely identical in size and shape. That's off of a Filco and a Leo.

Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #263 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 12:58:35 »
Quote from: Ragnorock;491099
Yeah that's definitely something specific to your keyboard then, since I just checked mine and the Esc key and the 1 key are absolutely identical in size and shape. That's off of a Filco and a Leo.

My Filco Majestouch2 and Noppoo Choc Mini have same profile Esc and number row as well.
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Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #264 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 13:01:35 »
Quote from: Ragnorock;491099
Yeah that's definitely something specific to your keyboard then, since I just checked mine and the Esc key and the 1 key are absolutely identical in size and shape. That's off of a Filco and a Leo.

Off the top of my heard, I can think of only a few that have a different profile for the F-row and number row, (the Vortex Race among them).

One other explanation is that some of the keys are filco/wasd and the others are SP/cherry.

Too add to the matching pile:
(cmstorm, WASD, WYSE, olivetti, and IBM and unicomp (lol!) all have the same profile for those rows)

Except the olivetti, which has print screen, scroll lock, and pause the same profile as the tenkey. But even on that all the function keys are the same as the number keys.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 January 2012, 13:04:05 by dorkvader »

Offline gridlock

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« Reply #265 on: Sat, 28 January 2012, 18:33:34 »
ill be down for a set aswell

Offline NguyenAdam

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« Reply #266 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 15:00:33 »
So is this ever going to be a group buy?

Offline metafour

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« Reply #267 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 15:14:06 »
Quote from: NguyenAdam;502523
So is this ever going to be a group buy?

Only ripster knows...

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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« Reply #268 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:01:59 »
This group buy is never going to happen. It looks like RColinTaylor is still "emailing of Blizz and SP", but lets be realistic. Who takes months to email, and who takes months to respond? Between RColinTaylor, Blizzard, and SP, at least one party is slacking or doesn't give a sh!t for followup.

Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #269 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:08:11 »
I'm going to talk to Melissa again about it and see what she says. Depending on her answer, this will either happen soon, or never.

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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« Reply #270 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:16:02 »
If Melissa from SP won't allow the production of the SC2 race icons from the other group buy, what makes you think these league icons will go through? I guess it is worth a try though, but I highly doubt it.

Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #271 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:31:03 »
Quote from: WhiteFireDragon;502682
If Melissa from SP won't allow the production of the SC2 race icons from the other group buy, what makes you think these league icons will go through? I guess it is worth a try though, but I highly doubt it.

Well thing is that the race icons are actual complex images that blizz designed. These league icons are very simple shapes thrown together. The arguement is it can't be copyrighted because of it being generic.

We're not waiting for blizz, they won't give liscensing unless we're a big company.

Also I wrote up that stuff like 2 motnhs ago and haven't touched it since. My apologies that it is somewhat outdated. I may just shut down the idea if Ragnorock can't get it done.
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Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #272 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:44:57 »
Quote from: hazeluff;502691
Well thing is that the race icons are actual complex images that blizz designed. These league icons are very simple shapes thrown together. The arguement is it can't be copyrighted because of it being generic.

Except that it's a bogus argument.  Once you combine specific color and shape combinations together, especially a series of them (each rank), it becomes non-generic.  If you identify this product, anywhere, with the word "Starcraft", you're infringing.  It's also not an issue of copyright but of trademark.  

Quote from: Wikipedia
A trademark, trade mark, or trade-mark[1] is a distinctive sign or indicator, used by an individual, business organization, or other legal entity, to identify that the products or services  with which the trademark appears originate from a unique source, and to  distinguish its products or services from those of other entities.

These symbols are definitely distintive signs or indicators used by Blizzard that identify their product, Starcraft 2.  You can even trademark specifically shaped letters of fonts.  For example, Lavalife's trademarked logo, ꔛ, is merely the written syllable "ze" from the Vai language.  Quiznos has a trademark on a specific way of writing the letter Q.  This is a trend with trademarks being granted internationally (http://www.bnai.com/CourtofJusticeTrademarks/default.aspx) and even internet domain names following suit.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-letter_second-level_domain)

So, yeah, some cases are stupid, but this case really isn't...and if it were to go to court, whoever is involved in it will lose.

IANAL/IANAS.  I used to work in print production and navigating the minefield of marks and rights is enough of a nightmare to not take risks with customers.

Edit: I am amazed at some of the caps that we do have...and yes, I will happily buy them, but eventually I see this being something that companies crack down on -- specifically the games industry.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:54:22 by Gawkbasher »
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Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #273 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 19:58:32 »
Quote from: Gawkbasher;502704
Except that it's a bogus argument.  Once you combine specific color and shape combinations together, especially a series of them (each rank), it becomes non-generic.  If you identify this product, anywhere, with the word "Starcraft", you're infringing.  It's also not an issue of copyright but of trademark.  



These symbols are definitely distintive signs or indicators used by Blizzard that identify their product, Starcraft 2.  You can even trademark specifically shaped letters of fonts.  For example, Lavalife's trademarked logo, ꔛ, is merely the written syllable "ze" from the Vai language.  Quiznos has a trademark on a specific way of writing the letter Q.  This is a trend with trademarks being granted internationally (http://www.bnai.com/CourtofJusticeTrademarks/default.aspx) and even internet domain names following suit.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-letter_second-level_domain)

So, yeah, some cases are stupid, but this case really isn't...and if it were to go to court, whoever is involved in it will lose.

IANAL/IANAS.  I used to work in print production and navigating the minefield of marks and rights is enough of a nightmare to not take risks with customers.

Edit: I am amazed at some of the caps that we do have...and yes, I will happily buy them, but eventually I see this being something that companies crack down on -- specifically the games industry.


I definitely won't be calling them "Starcraft 2 Keycaps".

And I don't believe these icons are trademarked by Blizz.
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Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #274 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:05:00 »
Quote from: hazeluff;502720
I definitely won't be calling them "Starcraft 2 Keycaps".

And I don't believe these icons are trademarked by Blizz.

This thread already does call them that though.

Also, at least in the US, you are not required to register with a state or federal agency to be granted trade mark protection as there are both Unregistered trade marks (basically all they have to do is slap a TM next to it) and common law trade marks...and additionally there's the Lanham Act which offers other rights.  They don't need to because they can just test it in court afterwards and damage awards are high.


Anyway, back to the question of copyright, this section is from Blizzard's Starcraft 2 EULA.  Emphasis is mine:

Quote
5. Ownership
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to  the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any  titles, computer code, themes, objects,  characters, character names,  stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, structural  or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and  recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses,  methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are  owned or licensed by Blizzard. The Game is protected by the copyright  laws of the United States, international treaties and conventions, and  other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties,  and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the  event of any violation of this License Agreement.  You have no interest,  monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game  or associated with the Account.

The copyright issue is actually easier to get by on as it isn't a direct copy of the artwork but honestly it's similar enough to be past the grey area.

At the point that anyone makes money on the product (as Signature Plastics would be by producing keys), there's no chance of "fair use" protection either.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:08:21 by Gawkbasher »
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Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #275 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:08:57 »
Quote from: Gawkbasher;502727
This thread already does call them that though.

Also, at least in the US, you are not required to register with a state or federal agency to be granted trade mark protection as there are both Unregistered trade marks (basically all they have to do is slap a TM next to it) and common law trade marks...and additionally there's the Lanham Act which offers other rights.  They don't need to because they can just test it in court afterwards and damage awards are high.

Anyway, back to the question of copyright, this section is from Blizzard's Starcraft 2 EULA.  Emphasis is mine:



The copyright issue is actually easier to get by on as it isn't a direct copy of the artwork but honestly it's similar enough to be past the grey area.

This is getting quite deep for me.

Sigh...

Outlook of this GB is pretty bad atm to be honest.
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Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #276 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:16:28 »
I don't want everyone who wants these (i want em too) to hate me for saying it.  It's just that Signature Plastics being uncomfortable with the last set, I don't think that this will ever happen.
Somebody should honestly get Blizzard to license the use of some artwork to Signature Plastics.

It would raise the cost of the caps some but at least it would make such things possible, though I gather there'd only be one type of cap made and you'd have to buy it direct through Blizzard if it did.

Blizzard does respond to the fans for this kind of thing...Jinx has a very full line of Starcraft shirts and I don't think they're all that huge a money maker for Blizzard.
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Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #277 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:25:23 »
I'm currently trying for an internship with Blizzard this summer, if I get it, then I do intend to talk to them about it.

Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #278 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:27:02 »
Quote from: Gawkbasher;502739
I don't want everyone who wants these (i want em too) to hate me for saying it.  It's just that Signature Plastics being uncomfortable with the last set, I don't think that this will ever happen.
Somebody should honestly get Blizzard to license the use of some artwork to Signature Plastics.

It would raise the cost of the caps some but at least it would make such things possible, though I gather there'd only be one type of cap made and you'd have to buy it direct through Blizzard if it did.

Blizzard does respond to the fans for this kind of thing...Jinx has a very full line of Starcraft shirts and I don't think they're all that huge a money maker for Blizzard.

I would love to do that. But they're not gonna even look at us because we're not a retailer or any sort.
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Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #279 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:36:55 »
I am sure that if Signature Plastics gave Blizzard some order data on custom keycaps, they would at least consider it.

And actually, I think the best bet would be to talk to their eSports managers/community people (since so many pros and people in eSports use mechanicals).  This is something they could have available at LAN events or even something to give out at BlizzCon.  There are lots of good reasons why Blizzard would want to do this.
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Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #280 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:39:50 »
Exactly what I would say to them in person. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure a bunch of Blizzard employees have seen/own some of the keys themselves.

Offline hazeluff

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« Reply #281 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 20:39:58 »
Quote from: Gawkbasher;502768
I am sure that if Signature Plastics gave Blizzard some order data on custom keycaps, they would at least consider it.

And actually, I think the best bet would be to talk to their eSports managers/community people (since so many pros and people in eSports use mechanicals).  This is something they could have available at LAN events or even something to give out at BlizzCon.  There are lots of good reasons why Blizzard would want to do this.

I know , but we need to present this carefully to blizzard and also catch their attention.

Tho, from blizzards POV they would prefer to liscense to someone who is a retailer/proper outlet instead of a forum like us. Or even SP who manufactures mainly.
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Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #282 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 23:42:26 »
Quote from: Gawkbasher;502727
This thread already does call them that though.

Also, at least in the US, you are not required to register with a state or federal agency to be granted trade mark protection as there are both Unregistered trade marks (basically all they have to do is slap a TM next to it) and common law trade marks...and additionally there's the Lanham Act which offers other rights.  They don't need to because they can just test it in court afterwards and damage awards are high.


Anyway, back to the question of copyright, this section is from Blizzard's Starcraft 2 EULA.  Emphasis is mine:



The copyright issue is actually easier to get by on as it isn't a direct copy of the artwork but honestly it's similar enough to be past the grey area.

At the point that anyone makes money on the product (as Signature Plastics would be by producing keys), there's no chance of "fair use" protection either.
First: I am not a lawyer. Let's make that clear. This is based on my interpretations of how this stuff works.

The Trademark stuff is irrelevant: It only really applies to companies encroaching on a particular trade. For example, if I want to make a pizza place called "Pizza Hut" I can't 'cause it's Trademarked, but there's no reason why I can't make a laundromat called "Pizza hut". Since it's demonstratively in a different trade. There's no way I can encroach on that. For reference, look at Apple computers vs. Apple records. Both have the same (or really similar) names, but there's no encroaching on trademarks. Since it's pretty easy to spot (and happens frequently) court cases involving this are abundant (Like if I start a software company called "Dynamic Convergence" not knowing one already exists, I'll get sued by the real one for infringing on their trademark)

The real issue here is copyright. Now, Blizzard's blanket claims of copyrighting everything are somewhat valid: If I write a poem, and don't attach any notice to it, it's still copyrighted to me (in the US). Anything new/creative I output I can also claim copyright to. Anything blizzard comes up with, they claim copyrights on. Hence the really broad statements. But they can't copyrighted something that's already been come up with. For example, if I want to copyright a shamrock symbol used in playing cards as "clubs" I can't. It already exists. If I come up with a set of playing cards, and include that, but say I copyright all the images, It may look like I claim to copyright the clubs symbol, but in reality I can't. This is similar to the "prior artwork" in patent law (and how I can't patent a post-and-lintel door structure, since it's been around for 5000 years)

So, since blizzard's images are distinctly different than Hazeluff's, I don't see the issue. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, Hazeluff holds the copyright to them (if applicable), as they are based on blizzard's work, but not copying it (distinctly different). Take for example ,the Parody exclusion: If I write a parody, it's clearly based on their work, but my own creation. Also, all of Handel's music is out of copyright, but if I play it, I can copyright the performance of it. It may sound really similar to another performance of it, but not infringe on their separate copyright (or the fart the the actual music is in the public domain.)

Finally, a lot of those images look based on and really similar to military rank insignias. I am pretty sure those are public-domain anyway, as most work produced through a government (the SElinux security, for example) is automatically in the public domain. That means that the ones based on chevrons should be good regardless.

In a really direct example, I can repaint a painting, claim it as my work (with regard and respect to the original) and still sell it.

NOW: Printing an exact copy of blizzard's- work (is impossible, but even if it weren't) would likely be a violation, but an original, similar, but distinct representation of it... I'd say we're good.

Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #283 on: Sun, 29 January 2012, 23:47:00 »
I disagree about saying that trademark stuff is irrelevant.  Blizzard through its partners sells Starcraft 2 themed input devices: Mice and keyboards specifically.  Themed keycaps DEFINITELY encroaches on their trade.

Also the music copyright issue can't really be used here.  Performance rights are actually different to rights over the composition/of ownership.  Also, you can't go out and perform a song that someone has the rights to the actual music without permission.  This happens all the times with unauthorized covers and even karaoke covers of the song in bars - big, big lawsuits (Universal is suing the biggest karoake producer in the world over performance rights for $2.3billion right now -- even though the company secured the "mechanical rights" to the songs).  This also happens when the melody of one song is the same as another's, even without sampling.  (Note; You cannot copyright the harmony (ie the chord progression) of a piece of music since that's generic).  As little as 4 notes of melodic similarity has cost people millions of dollars.

Also, I don't know about rank insignias but military ribbons and awards/honors/sashes are fiercely protected by copyright by most governments (Japan has hit people with stiff penalties and I believe even jail time IIRC for unauthorized reproductions of some of their honors.  The US Government has sued companies that produce replica ribbons sold to army/navy stores at prices that undercut them).  Also I don't exactly agree about government work being in public domain (though SElinux is a good example) when you have the examples of classified documents, secret laws, cryptography, darpa projects, etc.  In fact there was some big US court ruling about this issue recently where the court ruled that just because something is funded with tax dollars does not mean that the product belongs to the people.
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 January 2012, 00:11:49 by Gawkbasher »
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Offline CaiSter21

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« Reply #284 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 00:44:37 »
psh, trademark issues. i wonder if anyone has any connections to chinese keycap manufacturers.
:)
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Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #285 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 00:47:03 »
Quote from: CaiSter21;502960
psh, trademark issues. i wonder if anyone has any connections to chinese keycap manufacturers.
:)

This.  But personally, once I'm set up casting my own keys, I'll just run my own.  Zerg Creep keyboard, anyone?
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Offline CaiSter21

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« Reply #286 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 00:48:45 »
how does one cast their own keys? like what kind of equipment would u need?
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Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #287 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 00:55:33 »
Quote from: CaiSter21;502963
how does one cast their own keys? like what kind of equipment would u need?

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:23722

Note for any kind of doublecasts (same idea as doubleshot just we're not talking about injection molding) or fine details you will likely need extra (expensive) equipment to get air bubbles out:  a vacuum chamber (w/ pump), shake table and pressure pot (w/ air compressor).  Several hundred dollars over just the basic materials but not required for blank keys.  I'm hoping to eventually offer some compelling products like Clickclack does (I promise no skulls, no splats, no imitations).  That guy is an inspiration, honestly.
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Offline hashbaz

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« Reply #288 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 01:11:58 »
Doublecast?  Sounds awesome.  I hope that works out, I would love to see the result.

Offline Gawkbasher

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« Reply #289 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 01:12:37 »
Quote from: hashbaz;502974
Doublecast?  Sounds awesome.  I hope that works out, I would love to see the result.

I'm pretty sure that's how clickclack is doing it now.  I'm also pretty sure I stole that word from 'im. ;)

Doing a legend would be pretty difficult I think though.  The best way I've thought to do it so far is to have a template to press into clay and that probably will mean buying a typeset or making one using raster laser engraved acrylic which is INCREDIBLY expensive.  (Or I could scult and cast them, which would be ****ing tedious.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 January 2012, 01:23:44 by Gawkbasher »
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Offline HeavyArms

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« Reply #290 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 01:56:09 »
Want. Interested. Willing to buy. Ready to send money.
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Offline Ragnorock

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« Reply #291 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 17:22:34 »
Just got the definite word: no until Blizzard approves. I will work with them in the future if I get the internship with them this summer, but as of now consider this on indefinite hiatus.

Offline boost

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« Reply #292 on: Mon, 30 January 2012, 17:27:45 »
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