Author Topic: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...  (Read 119806 times)

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Offline Melvang

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #500 on: Mon, 25 April 2016, 23:47:52 »

I completely agre, with one exception: durability. Yes, rev 1 might break and is underpowered with Apple products, but all later Apple hardware still runs well. My current laptop is almost six years old.

Actually, Apple uses average quality internal components, though they have been getting better.

Yes, what you see is quality, screen, keyboard, etc... but inside was/is a different story. Systems have historically used low speed, average memory and drives, sometimes even low end. And while in most cases that was fine, there have been some real piles of garbage come out of there. The G4 laptop was particularly bad, the G5 had mixed results, as were some of the first few generations of Intel powered ones. Even many Iphones are meh in terms of quality internals. The latest ones will do well, but there's nothing inside is why. It's a cell phone sized board, with no user serviceable parts, don't expect these to hold value like previous generations, we are already seeing this trend on the Minis, which started having fewer and fewer serviceable parts.

People have the perception that Apple quality is better than average, just as they do for Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes, insurers will tell you a very different story (Apples comes in as average, Cadillac, Jag, and Mercedes well below). What these companies do well though is brand perception (and in Apple's case, customer service).

So why do Apples last? While it's true they get less infections (which can cause wear on the hd), the more important factor is that you tend to treat a $1200 quality feeling laptop a whole lot better than you would a $300 plastic turd. Do you care if your $300 3 year old Dell gets a scratch, no, in fact, you probably WANT it to die so you can replace it.

I realize it is anecdotal, but my mom's Cadillac has been great.  Couple minor issues with the fob that finally got sorted out to a bogus battery, and a couple car battery issues, but outside of that, it hasn't given my parents a lick of trouble.  It is an 05 STS.  Though the engine isn't factory.  My mom drove through some flood water in 08 and water locked the engine.  The new engine came from a junk yard out of a DTS whose previous owner pulled out in front of a dump truck.  That engine only had about a thousand miles on it at the time of transplant.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #501 on: Tue, 26 April 2016, 07:00:09 »

just as they do for Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes, insurers will tell you a very different story


These were indeed superior cars through the 1950s-1960s but since then they have been cruising on their former glorious reputations.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #502 on: Tue, 26 April 2016, 12:19:30 »

I completely agre, with one exception: durability. Yes, rev 1 might break and is underpowered with Apple products, but all later Apple hardware still runs well. My current laptop is almost six years old.

Actually, Apple uses average quality internal components, though they have been getting better.

Yes, what you see is quality, screen, keyboard, etc... but inside was/is a different story. Systems have historically used low speed, average memory and drives, sometimes even low end. And while in most cases that was fine, there have been some real piles of garbage come out of there. The G4 laptop was particularly bad, the G5 had mixed results, as were some of the first few generations of Intel powered ones. Even many Iphones are meh in terms of quality internals. The latest ones will do well, but there's nothing inside is why. It's a cell phone sized board, with no user serviceable parts, don't expect these to hold value like previous generations, we are already seeing this trend on the Minis, which started having fewer and fewer serviceable parts.


Two things:

1) how do you establish that apple's internals are of mediocre quality? Where do you get this information? I'm not saying that Apple is great or worse, I'm just curious what the truth behind apple's internal build quality is.

2) I completely agree with the pre-unibody era. I had a 2006 MBP and that was horrible build quality. Even the outer shell (with the plastic frame holding up all the aluminum plates).

People have the perception that Apple quality is better than average, just as they do for Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes, insurers will tell you a very different story (Apples comes in as average, Cadillac, Jag, and Mercedes well below). What these companies do well though is brand perception (and in Apple's case, customer service).

So why do Apples last? While it's true they get less infections (which can cause wear on the hd), the more important factor is that you tend to treat a $1200 quality feeling laptop a whole lot better than you would a $300 plastic turd. Do you care if your $300 3 year old Dell gets a scratch, no, in fact, you probably WANT it to die so you can replace it.

I see your point that you would, theoretically, be more careful with your $$$ laptop than with your average PC laptop. But that's, again, the outside. From my experience, PC laptops are EXTREMELY unreliable and I've had many in the 1200-2000$ range, which drove me eventually to Apple.

My ex-GF had a Sony Vaio. Trackpad started to do weird things within 2 months (Synaptics). Battery missed 20% capacity after 3 months, lasting only 3.5 hour with light browsing and medium screen brightness as opposed to the advertised 5 hours (yes I know that the advertised battery is always off in PC-world, but the capacity is something you can read out). Screen had dead pixels, no replacement guarantee.

I had an Acer laptop myself. Hinge came loose, keyboard started to misregister, battery died off quickly, noisy, ran hot. HDD died twice.

Similar issues with HP laptop I had and 2 Toshiba's.

Now on to Apple: 3 macbook airs around me (1 GF, 2 of my friends), all 3-5 years old and still run perfectly. Even batter is OK.

My own late 2010 MBP (almost 6 years old an 1000 cycles) still has 84% of battery capacity. Runs like new though slower on El Capitan (has an SSD btw).

Other friend of mine has 2011 MBP, also runs fine.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #503 on: Wed, 27 April 2016, 07:27:11 »
Two things:
1) how do you establish that apple's internals are of mediocre quality? Where do you get this information? I'm not saying that Apple is great or worse, I'm just curious what the truth behind apple's internal build quality is.
I didn't say mediocre (that would be a G4), I said average. Average is fine, mediocre sucks. They have gotten progressively better  on their components... Minus a few exceptions, and yes there have been some problems in recent years.

Besides experience (plenty), I pay attention to industry reports. Deal with enough computers you see trends, but also, if you work in the industry, especially when you are making recommendations for businesses, you need to follow this stuff. I tear things apart and look at tear downs to know what's in them.
 
Going back to Apple, it was well known they used low grade memory (a decent brand but a generation behind what was current speed) and while the dvd drives they used were high tech, they were problematic. Chips inside were also of average quality, they didn't always use the latest chipset, or the fastest, but it was solid. It's not a problem, but it's not what you expected considering the price.

As for today..
The most frequent failure on a computer was the DVD drive, followed by the hard drive, distantly followed by either the backlight or the fan. How many of those are in your computer? Apple was one of the first to ditch the DVD (their drives were notorious for failures) and also one of the first to ditch spinning drives. So why would a Mac be far more reliable than a cheap Acer? It lacks the two most common failure points. Not to mention, you are comparing a $1200-$2500 laptop, with one that probably cost around $300. It's not a fair competition when the average PC notebook is half the price and designed to last 2 years.

Give me an equal dollar Lenovo, older Sony (they sold their laptop division), Toshiba, heck, even an equal value Dell or HP of equal class*, and I guarantee you the results will be far different.

*I'll explain in a second

I see your point that you would, theoretically, be more careful with your $$$ laptop than with your average PC laptop. But that's, again, the outside. From my experience, PC laptops are EXTREMELY unreliable and I've had many in the 1200-2000$ range, which drove me eventually to Apple.

Now on to Apple: 3 macbook airs around me (1 GF, 2 of my friends), all 3-5 years old and still run perfectly. Even batter is OK.

Here is what most people don't undertsand with computers, particularly notebooks, there are classes to them. At the low end you have the home computer, these are usually your cheap Dells, HP, Acer, etc... By design these are only engineered to last 2-3 years under normal use, that's it. From there you have small business class/prosumer, these are engineered for a bit more durability and are meant to go 3-5 years, next is corporate level, these are meant to be easily serviceable, durable and reliable, they may not always look great, but they are expected to go 5-10 years (Lenovo X and T series dominate this class). Finally you get the executive class, this is where you get your Lenovo Carbon, Sony carbon edition, Apple Macbook Pro and such. These are the more exotics, they look better, are lighter and have nicer features, but they may or may not be any more reliable or have better components than the small business class.

Prices can jump all over. You can spend $1400 and get a home computer, and there are small business/corporate models in the $500 range, or you can spend $3000 and sometimes you get all of these at all of these prices from a single company. Executive systems typically start around $1200 and the sky is the limit, but their reliability is all over the board. All can have the same processors and memory. The corporate will most likely look the most bland, while the home system could be the flashiest and appear to have the most features. This is why you see an Acer with a Core I5 that costs $600, and then you look over and see an ugly Lenovo with an I5 and less memory for $1400. If you don't know any better you think the person is foolish buying they $1400 model.  The $600 machine will probably not last as long, has a cheap display, touchpad and keyboard. And yet, you might  get a Toshiba on sale for $800 that outlasts them both. It's completely unfair to compare a Macbook to a home pc, it's like comparing a a Kia to a Lexus but it's often what everyone does.

So where are all of these better pc's, well you don't usually find them at Best Buy because of what I said above. Try selling a $1400 Lenovo, a company the average Joe may have never heard of, when there is an HP or Acer sitting there that looks better, has the same specs and costs $350. He doesn't know about durability, what a good touchpad is like or how much better the screen is without them sitting side by side. He knows one looks better, has equal specs and dad or grandpa always had an HP.

Look, I'm not trying to trash Macs (other than their stupid single button and gesture BS), I actually respect them, but I recommend my customers follow the trend of who's giving you the best return on investment. Apple is (consistently) one of the most reliable on the market (these days), they look great and run well, and if you aren't sure which to go with, they are a safe bet, but that comes at a cost. I cant recommend a  $1500 Mac to a small business when I know there are systems out there that give you 99% of the reliability, with Windows compatibility, for half the price (and is less likely to walk off). Mac is a luxury, not a necessity and for some businesses it can even be a liability. The world runs on Windows, sorry, it's true*.

*I'm not much of a Windows fan, but my customers need it.
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Offline Shapey Fiend

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #504 on: Wed, 27 April 2016, 15:52:26 »
What I'd most like to see in Windows 10 at this point I a proper dark theme for Office and Explorer. I want dark grey background on everything.

Other thing is I want to dump all my work files into OneDrive but getting the old filenames too long error.

Realise I'm probably gonna have to use third party apps to solve these issues anybody got some recommendations?

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #505 on: Wed, 27 April 2016, 22:55:48 »
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #507 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 05:30:20 »
A Microsoft clicker too? :))
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #508 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 08:07:52 »
Well, guys, it's been a week now and I am pretty pleased, but here is also some whining:

After install, I instantly got rid of that weird crap like Bing and Cortina. Whatever they did to Internet Explorer is bizarre, so I got Firefox up ASAP and tried to ignore IE (and did they give it a new name, too?) as much as possible.

I got all those irrelevant "tiles" off the desktop right away, too. Having the ones I actually need come up in the Start menu is not bad at all, since my eyesight is not what it once was, they are probably easier for me to use than the old small Start menu. I never really understood what the "tiles" and "charms" business was all about anyway, nothing more than slightly glorified icons as far as I could tell.

With the desktop and system tray populated with my most-used programs, and keyboard shortcuts set up for whatever I could, this is really not so different, and I did not have to resort to any of those 3rd-party "Windows 7-esque skins" or whatever you call them.

Windows 10 does seem faster and cleaner, boot-up is quite swift but shut-down seems to drag on.

It does seem like some of the "System" and "Administration" type stuff is crippled or absent, though. My "user account" or whatever seems to have a stripped-down set of options - I don't even get to select a chess piece or whatever for my personal logo. Power settings, screen savers, etc, often seem to refuse to "take" no matter how many times I change them.

Finally, it seems like Windows Explorer gets crippled and obfuscated further with each iteration of Windows. I know that I am an old curmudgeon, but Explorer is my go-to for everything. When I want to find or open a file, I find it in my directory structure via Explorer and open it from there. So I want to see the directory tree in its cleanest and simplest state, and viable "Open With" settings are crucial to me.

I have never seemed to be able to get my mind around the purpose of parking "recently viewed" files, or "libraries" or "playlists" on top of and/or in the middle of what I am actually trying to see. And, last, not having a menu bar easily accessible is a pain, I hate having to dig around in a "ribbon" to find basic choices.
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Offline user 18

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #509 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 13:23:39 »
After install, I instantly got rid of that weird crap like Bing and Cortina. Whatever they did to Internet Explorer is bizarre, so I got Firefox up ASAP and tried to ignore IE (and did they give it a new name, too?) as much as possible.

There's IE11, which is ostensibly the last version of IE. There's also Edge, which is supposedly a completely new browser on a new engine. I'm not a fan of either.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #510 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 18:00:14 »
After install, I instantly got rid of that weird crap like Bing and Cortina.
I know Lotus Corntinas are a strange car to some Americans, but please don't disparage it by lumping it in with Bing and Cortana.  :))


Finally, it seems like Windows Explorer gets crippled and obfuscated further with each iteration of Windows. I know that I am an old curmudgeon, but Explorer is my go-to for everything. When I want to find or open a file, I find it in my directory structure via Explorer and open it from there. So I want to see the directory tree in its cleanest and simplest state, and viable "Open With" settings are crucial to me.
There are registry hacks to hide the library (the ones used on Win7 and 8 work), I highly recommend doing so. Personally, I think Win10's Explorer is actually a bit better than some previous versions, it can be a bit quirky, but works well overall after some tweaks to the interface. Also, while the interface isn't always great, file transfers over a network is actually quite improved over previous Windows versions. This probably doesn't matter to most people, but I use a home file server and it's makes a noticeable difference, or at least it did for the time I was using it.

Edit: not sure where I had that idea.
« Last Edit: Sat, 30 April 2016, 16:32:50 by Leslieann »
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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #511 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 18:12:50 »
After install, I instantly got rid of that weird crap like Bing and Cortina.
I know Lotus Corntinas are a strange car to some Americans, but please don't disparage it by lumping it in with Bing and Cortana.  :))


Finally, it seems like Windows Explorer gets crippled and obfuscated further with each iteration of Windows. I know that I am an old curmudgeon, but Explorer is my go-to for everything. When I want to find or open a file, I find it in my directory structure via Explorer and open it from there. So I want to see the directory tree in its cleanest and simplest state, and viable "Open With" settings are crucial to me.
There are registry hacks to hide the library (the ones used on Win7 and 8 work), I highly recommend doing so. Personally, I think Win10's Explorer is actually a bit better than some previous versions, it can be a bit quirky, but works well overall after some tweaks to the interface. Also, while the interface isn't always great, file transfers over a network is actually quite improved over previous Windows versions. This probably doesn't matter to most people, but I use a home file server and it's makes a noticeable difference, or at least it did for the time I was using it.

I'm not a super user by any stretch of the imagination but I do agree with what you mentioned regarding Windows 10's explorer. For once I don't have to browse through layers of folders to uninstall something. I can press my win key and type in the specific application or setting. This is the first copy of Windows in which I've needed to create a taskbar button/batch file to restart explorer but I like it when it works.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #512 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 18:36:12 »
I'm not a super user by any stretch of the imagination but I do agree with what you mentioned regarding Windows 10's explorer. For once I don't have to browse through layers of folders to uninstall something. I can press my win key and type in the specific application or setting. This is the first copy of Windows in which I've needed to create a taskbar button/batch file to restart explorer but I like it when it works.
You mean the start menu...
Since Vista (possibly earlier) you could press winkey and start typing a name, Win10 forced you to learn that because the UI is so bad.

Personally, I dislike the Win10 start menu, I hate scrolling through tons to find something. It's FAR better than Win8, but for desktop use it's not as good as Win7. I always rearranged my start menu to only have a couple folders. On Win7 I could open any program in 3 clicks with no scrolling,  Win10 removed a click, but requires either typing or scrolling.

There is an old web and IU rule that says you should be able to reach anything quickly and within 3 clicks and never any more than 5. With very little effort, Win7 was the most efficient Windows UI. It's not alone in this though, Mac and Linux have also gone backwards in terms of UI.
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Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #513 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 18:56:03 »
I'm not a super user by any stretch of the imagination but I do agree with what you mentioned regarding Windows 10's explorer. For once I don't have to browse through layers of folders to uninstall something. I can press my win key and type in the specific application or setting. This is the first copy of Windows in which I've needed to create a taskbar button/batch file to restart explorer but I like it when it works.
You mean the start menu...
Since Vista (possibly earlier) you could press winkey and start typing a name, Win10 forced you to learn that because the UI is so bad.

Personally, I dislike the Win10 start menu, I hate scrolling through tons to find something. It's FAR better than Win8, but for desktop use it's not as good as Win7. I always rearranged my start menu to only have a couple folders. On Win7 I could open any program in 3 clicks with no scrolling,  Win10 removed a click, but requires either typing or scrolling.

There is an old web and IU rule that says you should be able to reach anything quickly and within 3 clicks and never any more than 5. With very little effort, Win7 was the most efficient Windows UI. It's not alone in this though, Mac and Linux have also gone backwards in terms of UI.

Technically the start menu is explorer. I guess some people wouldn't make that association. Every time I restart explorer it restarts the start menu/taskbar. I figured this search feature wasn't something new but Windows 10 is the first version of Windows I've used that searches through system files before systematically checking files by name.

My start menu has four big tiles: weather, mail, calendar, notes, and 12 small tiles for program shortcuts. No scrolling necessary thankfully

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #514 on: Thu, 28 April 2016, 23:06:07 »
Technically the start menu is explorer. I guess some people wouldn't make that association. Every time I restart explorer it restarts the start menu/taskbar. I figured this search feature wasn't something new but Windows 10 is the first version of Windows I've used that searches through system files before systematically checking files by name.

My start menu has four big tiles: weather, mail, calendar, notes, and 12 small tiles for program shortcuts. No scrolling necessary thankfully
Pretty much everything you see on the desktop itself is handled by explorer.exe, taskbar, start menu, desktop icons...

While Windows Explorer is a part of explorer.exe, it's considered the name of the file manager alone.
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #515 on: Fri, 29 April 2016, 00:31:43 »
Technically the start menu is explorer. I guess some people wouldn't make that association. Every time I restart explorer it restarts the start menu/taskbar. I figured this search feature wasn't something new but Windows 10 is the first version of Windows I've used that searches through system files before systematically checking files by name.

My start menu has four big tiles: weather, mail, calendar, notes, and 12 small tiles for program shortcuts. No scrolling necessary thankfully
Pretty much everything you see on the desktop itself is handled by explorer.exe, taskbar, start menu, desktop icons...

While Windows Explorer is a part of explorer.exe, it's considered the name of the file manager alone.

When explorer.exe crashes, the whole desktop disappears.

When explorer.exe hangs, the whole desktop (and by extension, the whole system) hangs.
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Offline Altis

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #516 on: Tue, 03 May 2016, 07:58:59 »
I have installed Windows 10 as a secondary boot on my MacBook Pro. The thing is, I have no control over the updates (which ones it installs), and right now every time it tries to update, it restarts a few times then decides the updates can't be installed, so it undoes the changes (requiring 4 more restarts).

It's painful because I need to babysit it since every time it will restart into Mac OSX if I don't intervene.

I've managed to make it stop by disabling the Windows Update service, but now it's out of date and I can't get updates.

One thing I did try is enabling "Metered" mode so that it would only install the most important updates. The update size went down drastically, but it still failed just the same. That's why I wish that I could select which updates it installs and remove the one that's causing it to fail.

I've always favored MS Windows but it's been unbearable for years now and Microsoft are perfectly happy driving everyone mental with their arm-twist mentality. Windows 7 will probably go down as the best Windows release, IMO.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #517 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 16:54:04 »
This afternoon my son booted up his (8.1) computer only to discover the Windows 10 welcome screen.

He swears that he never accepted the 10 nag, but maybe he is mistaken. Has Microsoft added more aggressive push to its updates?

We went ahead and rode it in, and seemed to go quick and smooth and everything was unchanged when we finished, so I suppose that it is all OK.
(We were going to do it soon anyway, probably next month, before the free deadline ran out.)

For months, on update Tuesdays, I have noticed that my 10 update box has been checked and I have regularly unchecked it
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline redbanshee

  • actually Dade Murphy
  • Posts: 487
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #518 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 17:21:18 »
There is a small (83k) program written by Steve Gibson that disables these forced updates:

"Never10"
https://www.grc.com/never10.htm

Ive used this so much, lifesaver for sure

Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
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  • wildling
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #519 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 17:36:31 »
I don't need my custom explorer.exe refresh button as much as. When Windows 10 was released explorer.exe would freeze periodically. Now I only use the refresh button for when I change themes (updates the start bar, etc.) or other maintenance stuff that runs when I execute the batch file. Cool

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #520 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 18:07:11 »
This afternoon my son booted up his (8.1) computer only to discover the Windows 10 welcome screen.
He swears that he never accepted the 10 nag, but maybe he is mistaken. Has Microsoft added more aggressive push to its updates?
He probably didn't do it.
There are TONS of reports of it doing it automatically, and MS has been known to occasionally "mistakenly" mark it as a critical update and they are becoming more and more aggressive as time goes on.

So yeah, don't blame him.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #521 on: Fri, 20 May 2016, 20:46:13 »
There is a small (83k) program written by Steve Gibson that disables these forced updates:

"Never10"
https://www.grc.com/never10.htm


Thank you so much! Exactly what I was looking for, since I have the same copy of 8.1 installed on both of my kids' desktops, and 1 of them has already updated to 10, it makes me feel good to have defeated the other's attempts before they even start. I am guessing that Microsoft will let the duplication slide but would not have allowed a double step up.

"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #522 on: Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:37:32 »
There is a small (83k) program written by Steve Gibson that disables these forced updates:

"Never10"
https://www.grc.com/never10.htm

Ive used this so much, lifesaver for sure

I love you!  The Win 10 nagware has gone from recommending upgrading to asking me when I'd like to schedule the downloaded updates.

I'll install Win 10 when Win 7 support is dropped.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #523 on: Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:54:37 »

I'll install Win 10 when Win 7 support is dropped.

But it will only be free for a couple of more months.

I finally bit the bullet a few weeks ago and I have been very pleased. I instantly got rid of the silly crap like Bing and Cortana and whatever they renamed IE, then got all those stupid tile things off the desktop so that I have something that looks clean and comfortable. Naturally, you have to learn a new way of finding stuff, like you do with every new version of Windows, but supposedly this is the "last" version so you may not need to re-learn everything yet again.

The thing that used to be the start menu is actually pretty good once you delete the mountain of useless garbage they clutter it with. I have not yet discovered how to get and keep decent-looking widgets. I really enjoy having a nice big clock/weather widget.

And the selection of screen savers is extremely paltry.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #524 on: Sat, 21 May 2016, 16:58:08 »

I'll install Win 10 when Win 7 support is dropped.

But it will only be free for a couple of more months.

That's fine.  Come to think of it by the time Win 7 support ends I may just replace it with BSD or a lean version of Linux.

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #525 on: Sat, 21 May 2016, 18:06:12 »
The thing that used to be the start menu is actually pretty good once you delete the mountain of useless garbage they clutter it with. I have not yet discovered how to get and keep decent-looking widgets. I really enjoy having a nice big clock/weather widget.
Don't expect that to stay gone. They have a habit of re-installing all or most of that crap on major updates.

It's worse on the test branch. I had to drop it when it reached a point where I never knew when my start menu and file associations would be reset, worse, they have been known to uninstall software they don't like.
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Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
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  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #526 on: Tue, 24 May 2016, 13:06:22 »
So what do you guys think about this update infeno?

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/05/24/171215/windows-10-upgrade-activates-by-clicking-red-x-close-button-in-prompt-message

Apparently, by dismissing the box by clicking the close button, it still updates as opposed to suppressing the message.

Seems like MS is checking out how far they can go before lawsuits appear. I mean.. This is like "Shutting Down" means "MS gets all your money" that's how ridiculous this sounds.
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Offline dgneo

  • Supervillain
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #527 on: Tue, 24 May 2016, 13:08:40 »
Been on 10 since beta, haven't had any issues yet. Not sure what all the fuss is about /shrug

Offline iLLucionist

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2735
  • Location: Netherlands
  • Topre is Love.
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #528 on: Tue, 24 May 2016, 13:11:56 »
Been on 10 since beta, haven't had any issues yet. Not sure what all the fuss is about /shrug

Well, apart from MS downloading your data, if you are NOT on win10, update notifications and sneeky tricks to GET you to win10 is mostly annoying from what I take from it.

Win10 seems decent for the rest, except for the ad-ified start menu.
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Offline dgneo

  • Supervillain
  • * Curator
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #529 on: Tue, 24 May 2016, 13:17:16 »
Been on 10 since beta, haven't had any issues yet. Not sure what all the fuss is about /shrug

Well, apart from MS downloading your data, if you are NOT on win10, update notifications and sneeky tricks to GET you to win10 is mostly annoying from what I take from it.

Win10 seems decent for the rest, except for the ad-ified start menu.

Was commenting moreso on people's reluctance to update. I agree the upgrades have been super aggressive, but on the other hand, I feel that Microsoft's trying to avoid another ''IM NOT LEAVING XP EVER'.

Granted if people want to be morons and stick to a non supported OS, that's their prerogative.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 May 2016, 13:19:16 by dgneo »

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #530 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 08:08:35 »
Generally, after 5 or 6 years, you're on borrowed time with Windows for software and drivers, XP was an abnormal situation because Vista was so late. 
Microsoft doesn't have to try and avoid that, it will happen naturally, them being pushy is about money. They may not sell you the OS, but they can make money on the ads they placed in it and in selling your data. You sitting there on Win7 pays them nothing.

People WILL update, it may be while kicking and screaming, but they will.
Vista and XP have already been cutoff in most newer products (printers and wireless in particular) and I won't be surprised if 7 (and 8.0) starts getting dropped in the next 2 years. In fact some newer mainboards will not support windows 7 as it is (due to UEFI and lack of a legacy option). Don't be too surprised if some new hardware only had drivers for Windows 10 within 3 years.  Then there are the techs... Once the tools for fighting malware start abandoning an OS, it's finished. Removing a virus by hand isn't only not always possible, but the labor can very quickly exceed what the system is worth.  It becomes a salvage operation to recover data for their new computer instead of wasting money trying to save an old box that needs replacing anyhow.

Basically, while you CAN keep an older OS alive and running beyond that time frame, it will become more and more difficult. You either do it yourself, or start paying more and more for repairs (time and/or money), and at some point, the only hardware that will work is older stuff and that  means used, slower, and less reliable. People forget how to deal with problems, support pages start getting buried deeper and deeper or removed, sites die, etc...  Even the most staunch "XP for life!" people almost all be finished with it soon simply because they won't have any alternative.
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Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #531 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 16:01:58 »
I decided to stop being gramps and upgrade to Win 10.  It's OK and will probably be the last OS that particular laptop ever sees.  Even with 8GB of RAM and a relatively modern I5 I can feel there is a little drag in there.

The ads in the control panel make me want to cry.

My next laptop may very well be OSX based.

edit: just found 'startisback' will have to download and try later.  :p :thumb:
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 May 2016, 16:08:18 by dante »

Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2715
  • Location: Gainesville, FL
  • wildling
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #532 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 16:09:41 »
I decided to stop being gramps and upgrade to Win 10.  It's OK and will probably be the last OS that particular laptop ever sees.  Even with 8GB of RAM and a relatively modern I5 I can feel there is a little drag in there.

The ads in the control panel make me want to cry.

My next laptop may very well be OSX based.

Ads in the control panel? What ads? This is what I see when I open control panel..


Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #533 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 19:53:44 »
yeah sorry the start menu not control panel.

BTW I downloaded startisback and I'm now a believer. :)

I wish MS would let people configure their own GUI via scripts so that they can be brought forward from release to release; they would probably have a lot less resistance that way.

On one other thing... after the install of 10 my sound stopped working.  I just removed the drivers and rebooted; and now all is working again.  Weird.

Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #534 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 19:59:57 »
Oh, I forgot about the apps that were bundled into my start menu. It took a while for me to clear those out and change the privacy settings.

Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #535 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 21:38:35 »
yeah sorry the start menu not control panel.

BTW I downloaded startisback and I'm now a believer. :)

I wish MS would let people configure their own GUI via scripts so that they can be brought forward from release to release; they would probably have a lot less resistance that way.

On one other thing... after the install of 10 my sound stopped working.  I just removed the drivers and rebooted; and now all is working again.  Weird.

MS are infamous for NOT letting users configure the UI.

Take Windows XP - it supported "themes", but the only themes available were the two or three built in by Microsoft, and one or two additional themes Microsoft created (e.g. media centre).

Not very themable after all.
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Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2715
  • Location: Gainesville, FL
  • wildling
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #536 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 21:49:36 »
yeah sorry the start menu not control panel.

BTW I downloaded startisback and I'm now a believer. :)

I wish MS would let people configure their own GUI via scripts so that they can be brought forward from release to release; they would probably have a lot less resistance that way.

On one other thing... after the install of 10 my sound stopped working.  I just removed the drivers and rebooted; and now all is working again.  Weird.

MS are infamous for NOT letting users configure the UI.

Take Windows XP - it supported "themes", but the only themes available were the two or three built in by Microsoft, and one or two additional themes Microsoft created (e.g. media centre).

Not very themable after all.

Aftermarket theme applications for XP were useful but the Win7-8 versions weren't the same imo. These days I'm happy to have a high contrast theme with a few adjustments; I'm not using aftermarket programs to change themes, the start menu icon, or the welcome screen like I did during those XP days. Configuring the UI seems to be more of a Linux thing these days   

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #537 on: Wed, 25 May 2016, 23:39:15 »
You can remove the ads in the start menu. I forget where, but you certainly can. Same for the screen saver/lock screen.
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Offline Altis

  • Posts: 974
  • Location: Canada
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #538 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 10:38:29 »
I'm still stuck in an endless update cycle with Windows 10 on my MacBook.

Basically, the updates download and try to install, then after a few reboot cycles of installing updates, it says it failed and is reverting back, which takes another 4 reboots.

I have to babysit it the whole time because the computer will boot to OS X by default, so I have to sit with it for like 20 minutes each time it does it.

I tried enabling "metered connection" as that will try to install only critical updates, but it still failed. I have no control over which updates it's installing so I'm kind of stuck.

At this point, I can't update it. I did manage to kill the updater entirely by preventing that service from starting up with Windows, but I don't like having it out of date for long.

I think I'll just try to put a copy of Windows 7 on there for now. That would also prevent it from absolutely demolishing my mobile data whenever I tether as it wants to download all kinds of stuff right away.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #539 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 16:53:08 »
You can disable the update causing the restart and rollback, it's not so easy but does work.
Unfortunately if MS decides to re-issue it, or feels they fixed it and re-releases it, it will happen again.

About the time I consider putting 10 back on to game a bit or update my tablet, something like this reminds me why it's not on my machines.
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62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
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Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
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w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
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J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
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Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2715
  • Location: Gainesville, FL
  • wildling
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #540 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 17:03:16 »
There was something I had to do when my Windows 10 download failed. First, I had to do something in regedit to get the popup. I think there is a laundry list of updates that you need to have completed in order to receive the update with the Win 10 download. I may have tracked down all my failed updates so that the download would commence. To be completely honest, I updated to Windows 10 so that I could upgrade my Windows 7 32bit to Windows 10 64bit (or rather update my Windows 7 32bit to Windows 10 32bit, and then install Windows 10 64bit :confused:)

Offline Altis

  • Posts: 974
  • Location: Canada
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #541 on: Thu, 26 May 2016, 19:31:02 »
You can disable the update causing the restart and rollback, it's not so easy but does work.
Unfortunately if MS decides to re-issue it, or feels they fixed it and re-releases it, it will happen again.

About the time I consider putting 10 back on to game a bit or update my tablet, something like this reminds me why it's not on my machines.

It's a mess. On top of that, unlike Windows 7, Windows 10 has issues with activation when I run my BootCamp partition (Windows) as a VM in either VMWare Fusion or Parallels. It's activated when I boot directly to Windows, but not activated when I boot it in the VM. Windows 7 let me activate it once and never gave me grief after that.

I've really tried to like Windows 10, but it's arm-twist mentality for every little thing is enough to drive me nuts. I've always given Apple a hard time over that, especially with regards to iOS, but it seems like Microsoft is determined to take it even further.

I'll probably end up with Windows 10 on my gaming machine only, and Windows 7 as my BootCamp partition on the Mac. I've already mostly migrated everything else to OS X.

I just hope Apple doesn't try to one-up them and be even more involved -- and that would be very Apple, indeed.
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Offline dante

  • Posts: 2553
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #542 on: Fri, 27 May 2016, 09:22:22 »
My big criticism is when my sound went out right after I installed 10.  I'm like WTF this is something that would happen in Linux.

Maybe I've been uncommonly lucky but this was the first issue - ever - I've had with drivers in Windows.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #543 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 13:47:23 »
I decided to stop being gramps and upgrade to Win 10.  It's OK and will probably be the last OS that particular laptop ever sees.  Even with 8GB of RAM and a relatively modern I5 I can feel there is a little drag in there.

The ads in the control panel make me want to cry.

My next laptop may very well be OSX based.

Ads in the control panel? What ads? This is what I see when I open control panel..

Show Image


What's up with dem colors? Are you running EGA?
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #544 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 13:48:57 »
yeah sorry the start menu not control panel.

BTW I downloaded startisback and I'm now a believer. :)

I wish MS would let people configure their own GUI via scripts so that they can be brought forward from release to release; they would probably have a lot less resistance that way.

On one other thing... after the install of 10 my sound stopped working.  I just removed the drivers and rebooted; and now all is working again.  Weird.

MS are infamous for NOT letting users configure the UI.

Take Windows XP - it supported "themes", but the only themes available were the two or three built in by Microsoft, and one or two additional themes Microsoft created (e.g. media centre).

Not very themable after all.

Though I'm more fond of OS X generally, XP was still better compared to Yosemite today. They promised a true "dark theme" in OS X. But then bait-and-switch and all we got was dark menubar and that's it. Bastards.
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #545 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 13:52:01 »
Recently, a friend of mine asked me to help him upgrade from Vista to 10. It was a nightmare. Actually, I had to revert back to Vista and tell that friend to keep it at that.

There was this time (I believe it was Win98SE) where you had to install some updates in a particular order or you would brick your system. Like wrong files overwritten or wrong registry settings and BSODs. It feels like that all over again with Win10. Some updates bricked the system.

You would imagine that the update system would be more reliable nowadays, especially given automatically installing updates. But MS is still MS apparently. For instance, there was Win 1.0 UI code up to Win 7, I believe it was for the font manager.
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Offline NewbieOneKenobi

  • Posts: 634
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #546 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 14:27:57 »
I've heard there's been a change to MS's EULA re: access to private files. Can someone confirm or deny? Reason I'm asking: the EULA is the only thing that prevents me from accepting the free upgrade.

Offline xtrafrood

  • formerly csmertx
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  • Location: Gainesville, FL
  • wildling
Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #547 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 14:34:16 »
Recently, a friend of mine asked me to help him upgrade from Vista to 10. It was a nightmare. Actually, I had to revert back to Vista and tell that friend to keep it at that.

There was this time (I believe it was Win98SE) where you had to install some updates in a particular order or you would brick your system. Like wrong files overwritten or wrong registry settings and BSODs. It feels like that all over again with Win10. Some updates bricked the system.

You would imagine that the update system would be more reliable nowadays, especially given automatically installing updates. But MS is still MS apparently. For instance, there was Win 1.0 UI code up to Win 7, I believe it was for the font manager.

Vista to Windows 10.. but why..

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #548 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 14:35:04 »
I've heard there's been a change to MS's EULA re: access to private files. Can someone confirm or deny? Reason I'm asking: the EULA is the only thing that prevents me from accepting the free upgrade.

I dunno about changes. But isn't the EULA as is with win10 worse enough that it prevents you from upgrading?
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Offline iLLucionist

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  • Location: Netherlands
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Re: Windows 10 Update thoughts and questions...
« Reply #549 on: Sat, 28 May 2016, 14:35:35 »
Recently, a friend of mine asked me to help him upgrade from Vista to 10. It was a nightmare. Actually, I had to revert back to Vista and tell that friend to keep it at that.

There was this time (I believe it was Win98SE) where you had to install some updates in a particular order or you would brick your system. Like wrong files overwritten or wrong registry settings and BSODs. It feels like that all over again with Win10. Some updates bricked the system.

You would imagine that the update system would be more reliable nowadays, especially given automatically installing updates. But MS is still MS apparently. For instance, there was Win 1.0 UI code up to Win 7, I believe it was for the font manager.

Vista to Windows 10.. but why..

No idea actually. No idea why you would stick with vista when win7 is around either.
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